Is anyone else not feeling that patriotic for July 4?
I was talking to one of my friends and he mentioned staying home on July 4, citing how there are a lot of really ugly things going on in the US.
After thinking about this myself, I'm starting to feel the same way. Instead of being proud of the country, I'm feeling like I'm just another wallet that companies and the government are trying to suck all the money out of.
The cost of living is going up, the housing market is a nightmare, I don't feel very confident in our government at all, the job market is a nightmare...
I think I'll be staying home this year too... anyone else?
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Not being American I always found the whole thing very creepy. Like, North Korean military parade-creepy.
For the record, we don't have anything like that where I'm from, but the closest things we do have are also very creepy. Patriotism in general is extremely not cool, honestly.
I screencapped this many moons ago on Reddit, I feel that it's apropos
The USA started cracking at the foundations when McCarthyism began, demonizing an ideology that was ultimately about sharing resources. You can draw a straight line between the Red Scare and the anti-socialism proudly shouted by modern Republicans and the MAGA movement today.
For anyone who identifies as conservative, this rabid vilification of socialism has rotted away at even the idea that the government should exist to service the people, let alone advocating for it. So instead they advocate for tearing it all apart and hold firm to the 'rugged individialism', "the Free Market © will provide" nonsense that has never worked as far back in history as we can peer.
Its so toxic, and it serves only the most wealthy. It's gone so far and for so long now that I don't see the lessons being learnt and course correcting with words alone.
It's rooted in all that "American Exceptionalism" propaganda crap, for sure.
As an American I never really liked the holiday, (I agree patriotism sucks) but I wouldn't say it's that it really feels creepy other than the few people who really go over the top with it. Most people just use it as an excuse to barbeque and watch / light off fireworks (which I'm just personally not into)
Now for some real North Korea shit, look up videos of the “pledge of allegiance“ in schools. I was always the only one not doing it, but it wasn't until I was an adult that I realized how fucked up it is. Creepy as hell.
America and North Korea aren't alone in some kind of pledge for the country, are we? I have a memory of Chinese students doing the same type of thing, but I'm not entirely sure.
From a quick search it looks like India, Nigeria, Singapore, and the Philippines do as well.
Other countries may have pledges of some sort for special occasions or for new citizens. But having a flag in every classroom that children chant to each morning is not normal.
Over here the only similar events I can think of are related to joining the military and taking elected office. And there was significant legal arguing about the last one, to the point where opt-outs and strict limitations were added.
I appreciate that you don't tell kids that they have to participate, but honestly, even telling the others to be "respectfully quiet" seems a bit odd to me.
A democratic state is something you pledge allegiance to by actively participating, by making use of your democratic rights and by putting energy into building and shaping the system we all live in. That's what democracy is meant to be, a system of all people working together and valuing the needs and opinions of others, working out the best solutions for everyone through discourse. It's not a religion or a god that you pray to in silence, that's a bit absurd, isn't it?
Yeah, I get that, and I think this is somehow a cultural difference. I didn't mean to tell you that's not what you're supposed to do, sorry if it came across like that. I just thought it was interesting that to me, the whole idea of saying the pledge seems so strange, it reminds me of saying a prayer, and that somehow doesn't match my understanding of a democratic system. I'm from Germany, by the way. We grow up with a very different relationship to our state compared to the US. I think it changed a bit in recent years (and I'm a bit undecided whether that's a good thing or not), but when I was a kid, basically only nationalists and neonazis waved the German flag (that changed with the soccer worldcup in Germany in 2006). My school curriculum was filled with the crimes of the Third Reich, and I think what I took away from that was to never just worship or even trust a state or government just because it's you own, because it may actually be or turn evil. And that it's your responsibility as a citizen to not let that happen. Of course I do feel connected to my country and my culture, but I'm just very unfamiliar with the kind of connection that (many) Americans seem to have with their country. Again, I'm not trying to say it's wrong per se, but to feel such an emotional connection to a democratic state that is meant to be shaped by the people for the people does feel feel a bit off to me, in the sense maybe that I see a risk of it leading people in a wrong direction. I don't know. I hope that makes it a bit more understandable. I'd actually like to hear your opinion on that. Is my point of view understandable for you, or does it seem just as strange to you?
Independence day celebrations are not unique to America.
In fact, the best ones are about independence from the US
Which ones are those?
Hmm let me see. True former colonies include Cuba, the Philippines and Liberia. The Panama Canal Zone. Hawaii was unceremoniously annexed, as were Guam and Puerto Rico. And a host of smaller islands.
In a broader sense, Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq are also very happy they’re once again independent from the US.
In an even broader sense, most US allies are working for independence from the unreliable US as we speak.
I was asking which countries have independence days that celebrate independence from the US.
The Philippines celebrates their independence from Spain.
Vietnam celebrates their independence from France.
I won’t bother going on, but nice try though.
Hey you weren't supposed to know that!
We have one of those, and it'd be creepy even if historically it wasn't debatable that the event itself was for the better.
Fair enough, I just disagree. Gaining independence seems to me like a positive thing worth celebrating. I'm happy whenever I see an ex-colony celebrating their day.
Not saying we Americans don't take it a little far, but hey, it's the one day where you can be patriotic without that creepy vibe.
America fought for independence from Britain because the wealth of the nation was being sucked away and spent for the whims of a handful of wealthy people, and because the people were powerless to chose who the government was. If you factor in the insane number of insanely Gerrymandered districts and significant quantities of votes going through Musk's servers with no external scrutiny, a broken electoral college and a supreme court intent on deleting the constitution starting with section 3 of the 14th amendment (and now moving on to the rest of it), removing religious freedom, I see everything that the founding fathers fought for and everything that the civil war was fought for being stamped on by one deluded racist moron and his crazy sycophants and enablers. It was never really freedom from slavery anyway when you have such vast numbers of black men working for no wage in profiteering private prisons for decades just for smoking some pot or stealing some groceries while rich men who do drugs or steal tens of thousands get a slap on the wrist.
Yeah, well, that depends on who gained independence from whom and whether you think you're independent now. Also on whether you'd be indepedendent from any guys who'd like to be independent from the now guys if they were to be independent.
See, political independence for a group requires that you align with the idea the group has of itself. I don't know that I have that overlap with any particular political delineation, so I may need an organization a touch more nuanced than an independent, sovereign nation-state.
Also, gonna need some citation on the lack of creepy vibe, as mentioned above.
How many are on July 4?
Patriotism is very cool. Nationalism isn't, which has mostly subverted the term patriot. A patriot stands up when their nation is doing something wrong. They don't blindly believe they're the best, they recognize that there's things they can improve. They fight to make their country better, not to make others worse.
That'd be great if it didn't disagree with all available evidence. For all of history patriots have been either cannon fodder or abusive tyrants. On a long enough trajectory, almost inevitably nationalists and eventually imperialists.
One could argue that, much like some flavors of political utopia, internationalism has the advantage of never having been implemented in any practical sense, so they have less of a challenge proving their positive impact, but I'll take it anyway.
Regardless, I find that "making their country better" should be a distant second to "making the world better", and perhaps a close third behind "making the crap you have on hand and the lives of those immediately around you better".
Look, I am not a globalist anarchist. I believe in well structured, effective democratic governments. Maybe I was the right age to look at the EU and think that those don't have to be held to the absurd liberal idea of the nation-state,and that wherever a collective of humans have a common interest there should be governance structured to work with other layers of organization to improve things and enforce rights within that sphere. There is nothing magical about the nation-state layer of government that makes it more spiritually attuned to identity or the needs of the people. It's all administrative stuff as far as I'm concerned.
I find this statement odd. So you think it's best to start local, right? OK, so next from your immediate community, you should expand out, eventually to country, then to world, right? Isn't that the logical progression. From more influence to less? Why is your priority jumping all over?
Funnily enough, I am an Anarchist. I don't know if I'd call myself a globalist, but probably. I also believe in well structured democratic governments. Those aren't at odds with each other.
I think we're in agreement. This isn't counter to what I said. I'd say it's in unison with it. People should work to improve their governments in any way they can. They should try to reshape it to better represent them. That's what a patriot would do, not just settle for the status quo and assume they're the best possible version there can be.
Well, then what fatherland is the patriot beholden to?
Cause that's what the word means.
I get it, particularly in countries where the nation state has overlapped more or less perfectly for a long time it's hard to shed the emotional attachment, but there's no need for it.
See, the reason I go from small to international is precisely that the nation state takes care of itself. The world has agreed that it's the natural resting place of sovereignty and every other scale of governance or administration os derived from it. I don't like that much. I don't resent it, but I also don't give it immediate precedence over any other scale of government.
A patriot may care for whatever arbitrary definition the XVIIIth century put on their identity and be well meaning enough about it. I'm not a patriot. The historical borders of what some consider a nation today have no particular relevance, beyond the fact that they happen to drive some level of administration. If anything, it's the level where the most people decide to infringe on each other's business just because they feel they have a right to ownership over that national identity. I have no particular interest in whitewashing any of that into some supposedly healthy version of patriotism that has very rarely existed in any way.
The land (and people), but not necessarily the state.
(The term state ahead is really annoying.)
Maybe part of it comes from being in the US, where we have a weird form of double governance of the "state" and "federal" governments. Which state are we loyal too, because they're both ours? It makes things more malleable. The states could agree to form a totally new federal government if they wanted to.
There are multiple definitions of country. Some don't care about the state that defines the borders. Your country is the land where you were born, not the state necessarily. One example that comes to mind in the US, which spans multiple states, is "Appalachia." Appalachian people are a broad culture group who live in the Appalachian mountain region, and are distinct from the states they reside, and the larger US obviously. They are countrymen of each other.
No, the problem is some other people have changed the term to mean nationalist. For example, in the US, people were called patriots for fighting for the people in the colonies against the state that controlled them (Britain). They didn't approve of the state and wanted to improve it, so they fought to change it and left the former state that was controlling them. Patriotism doesn't have to be blind support of a state, and I'd argue that isn't patriotism, because you aren't defending it from bad actors/actions.
The etymology of the term is certainly much older than the nation-state, but also entirely disconnected from modern meanings (or ironic/facetious, which I do appreciate). There is just no original, clean, virtuous instance of "patriot" dislodged from the nationalist undertones. It simply has never existed.
The mistake you're making is assuming that US revolutionaries weren't nationalists or were praiseworthy or fundamentally different than British colonists. We're going to disagree on that one. I mean, never mind that they didn't invent the term or that their whitewashing of it was self-serving. Even if your timeline of events was true, I despise their patriotism as much as anybody else's. US revolutionaries weren't some ideal version of a patriot, they were nationalist independentists who happened to borrow some French revolutionary ideas about the liberal democratic state-nation organization slightly earlier than their previous administration did (and perhaps due to the first draft nature of the thing, slightly worse, too).
I won't judge them by modern standards, but I also absolutely, entirely refuse to sacralize them or idealize them. They were what they were, and they are absolutely not the thing that's going to give patriotism a good name.
You're putting words in my mouth saying that I said American revolutionaries were great people. I never said such a thing, nor would I. Stop reading more into what I said than I actually said please.
They were people willing to lay their lives down for something they thought was worth fighting for. Not out of some ignorance that the status quo is the best option, but because they wanted to make changes to improve things for their community (and their self too, sure). That's what patriotism is.
I'd argue that it's necessarily not pristine. You have to be willing to get dirty. You don't win a war with honor. You win it by killing other people until the other side isn't fighting anymore. The same is true for any fight (not the killing necessarily, but being willing to do what needs to be done).
I just brought them up as an example of patriotism though. I'm not saying they're a perfect example, just an example. This isn't about the US, like you're making it to be. You're not arguing against the point. Your entire comment can be boiled down to "American revolutionaries are bad" but it doesn't say really anything about patriotism.
Anyway, my point is, don't let nationalists take the term. Maybe you don't, but most people have positive opinions if the term. It's easier and more useful to take the term back, because it isn't necessarily a nationalist term. There are plenty of leftist patriots throughout history and the world. The right is good at using language as a weapon. We should be too, and we shouldn't back off every time they try to use it.
Patriotism can be cool, there are (I hope) many things about your nation, it's achievements and communities that you might be proud of.
Nationalism however, not so much. They're closely related (and bad people will try to sneak Nationalism under the radar as Patriotism) but are very different things.
I don't know that I agree with this.
Perhaps coming from a place where the notion of "country" and "nation" don't overlap one to one makes it easier to see. I wouldn't really be able to tell you what "my nation" even is, and I wouldn't have it any other way.
I respect and take pride in culture in all its diversity and complexity, in democracy and in the general sense of human decency. Screw all the so-called nations trying to get me to vouch for them as a political unit, though. Political organization is for buiding roads and hospitals, not for pride.
I don't know, it's kind of like how people like to support their local football team. I think tribalism is somewhat ingrained in our brains. I can't say it's entirely logical, but it seems kind of baked-in to people at some level, like a leftover from pre-history.
Well, yeah, but so are plenty of other gross things and you don't see me out there raiding coastal villages just because we've spent longer taking things from each other by force than enforcing some peaceful, democratic social contract.
To be clear, I'm not disagreeing, we have tribalism baked into us. It just happens to suck and we should strive to break past our built-in biases.
Patriotism is the little sibling of nationalism, and the boundaries are fluid. I will never understand why people are proud of other people's accomplishments and make them their own. Or is it because people were shat on somewhere else in the world than everyone else? Makes absolutely no sense.
I mean, it's just fireworks. The US does a lot more creepy jingoistic things than fireworks. How many other nations celebrate things by scaring all the local pets? It can't be that uncommon...
Things, yeah. National symbology, not as much.
I'll say that I agree with you, though. Americans do way creepier stuff. The first time I attended a US sporting event it felt exactly like being trapped in some ritual for a religion I don't understand. They may as well have been ripping off some poor guy's still beating heart before lowering him into lava and watching it spontaneously burst into flame, for all I cared. I genuinely didn't know what to do with myself for the entire duration of the thing.
I've never been to school there, either. I imagine watching a bunch of children recite their daily indoctrinations must be creepy AF. I'm not sure if it actually happens, though. It's never in American movies.
Good day to march on your White House, perhaps…
I thought about this too. In the past I used to go to protests because I felt that if our leaders saw the protest that they might change their mind about something.
Now, so many of our citizens are so insane, they think you won't actually protest unless George Soros pays you. I also can't picture Trump seeing a protest and saying "I think I'll reconsider..." It feels more futile than ever.
It’s never futile. Sure, Trump will never listen, never care about anyone whose not himself, never face justice (crap, now you’re depressing me), but what about Al the minion who do his bidding. I mean, they’re evil too, but going deeper ….
This all can’t happen without supporters. Maybe it’s voters who are low information or easily manipulated finally seeing the truth. Maybe it’s federal employees feeling the support to do the right thing. Maybe it’s law enforcement growing shame at how they’ve been used. Maybe it’s judicial branch standing up from being marginalized and corporatized, fighting back against legalized bribery and corroded ethics at the highest court.
The billionaires big bill was passed in the senate on a tie breaker. It would have take only one more senator to be swayed. Big elections coming up in a little over a year- your peers might elect someone who will actually serve them. Various states and cities, corps and law firms are standing up for what’s right: maybe you can get one more
I’ve found that it gives hope to those who hate the direction the nation is going, but feel isolated. We are not a tiny minority, and we need to act like it.
Celebrating America hasn't been something to be proud of since before 2001. We had a couple of high points during Obama, but nothing that tipped the scales.
I'm personally disgusted by this place, and anytime I see someone with an American flag anywhere on their person or property, I immediately assume they're a conservative and I think lesser of them. I know that this isn't a reality, but that is what the American flag means to me, and I assume quite a few others.
Absolutely like that for me. Or Christians. If I know you're a Christian within 15 min of meeting you, we are not going to be friends.
There a very few notably religious people that I associate with. I have a coworker that was a pastor for years and is still religious. He approaches it in the way I think it should be. We discuss religion as a theory, he doesn't push or tell people what to believe. His belief is that God has his plans and that's between him and each person. If every religious person lived like him, I'd have a lot less issue with it. I don't agree with many of his other beliefs that are born from his religious background, but he's not trying to impose them on anyone or prevent anyone from living their lives.
Other than him, and even still sometimes him, I agree with you. It's like a scarlet letter that was put on volunteerily to say, "hey, I'm a dick and my beliefs are correct and apply to everyone."
Honestly as a religious person myself I'm constantly disgusted this isn't the norm.
If the topic of religion ever comes up, the theory is my favourite conversation. I'm not here to sell you on my view of God, and I don't want you to sell me on yours. It's two sides of the same frankly quite interesting coin, and I like learning about the different ways people do things - but I'm not here to make you do things my way. That would be wrong.
And unless the topic comes up organically, it doesn't fucking matter. We can work together or be best mates or whatever and unless you asked, you'd never have to know I was religious.
In my lifetime, I’ve met ONE very religious Christian who wasn’t a hypocrite. ONE. He was a very nice guy, though, and I hope he and his family are doing well.
The remaining 99.9% of the time, I’m absolutely with you.
The people who complain the loudest about disrespecting the flag are the same people who ruined it in the first place.
Burning it in a discarded toilet next to a truck stop is less disrespectful than this.
If those people didn't have
hippcrasyhypocrisy, they'd have nothing.... Well, they'd still have racism, bigotry, and a bunch of other shitty attributes I guess.hypocrisy. It is a really weirdly-spelled word.
Lol, I did butcher it. I only Lemmy from my phone, so I'm far more inclined to have typos. When I typed that I remember starting it and clicking on the suggestion to auto fill, but I must not clicked where I thought.
why celebrate independence day?
it was supposed to be about gaining independence from tyranny.
We're back with kings and tyrants.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, but HOW THE FUCK could I EVER be proud of this country anymore??? We've done nothing to deserve respect or patriotism.
Then maybe it's a day to protest, not to celebrate. Maybe the best way could have been doing a full strike that stopped the country and doing also protests in the streets.
Why are you attacking a person who obviously is opposed to the current administration? Like, I understand your sentiment, but this person ain't the one.
The "every single American is culpable and therefore my bigotry is excused" energy is getting wild.
Hey, you remember when you didn't vote for something and it still happened? Yeah, your should be blamed for it none the less.
I'm a USAF vet. My ancestors literally fought in the revolutionary war, and signed The Declaration of Independence. I'm going through the motions this year, but I don't feel it at all. I'm pissed that we're multiple stages into a nazi regime. I'm profoundly flabbergasted at how anyone could be for this. How anyone that is for it, can't see that they're going to be the "out" party. Some already are seeing it.
I'm incredibly disappointed that the news has gotten so out of touch that they just rolled over and lapped up the rhetoric. Local news is all sunshine and rainbows while ICE kidnaps people, and a corrupt POtuS breaks the constitution left and right. While he deploys military against its own citizens. While rights are stripped, aided by a corrupt SCOTUS. While the rich get richer off of our backs. While the checks and balances are obliterated.
I see where you're at. I take no offense. I definitely could be doing more. I can't work either, so it isn't like I don't have the time. Physical issues are my only real hold back. My enlistment was fear of being trapped in an abusive home, as well as feeling like high school didn't offer enough of an education to prepare me. We both have the luxury of doing what we're doing.
However, I offer a few counter points.
What does killing 1 ICE "officer" accomplish? How does that affect change in the right direction? Does this cause others to do the same and follow suit?
We need more that I don't think we're at the point of accomplishing yet. We need a full on civil war. One that I'm not sure how we get to kick off, all at the same time, all across the nation, without it fizzling out quickly.
The problem then comes in how to coordinate that. How do we communicate, nation wide, in a way that is not vulnerable to monitoring and disruption by the very place we're trying to change? How do we coordinate arming and supplies? How do we coordinate movements and operations?
We can't stop at just POtuS either. 99% of it needs to go. Dem leadership has been largely sitting on the bloody nubs that they try to "reach across the aisle" with. SCOTUS and most all other courts are compromised. Plus the billionaires, the behind the scenes assholes, and even state and local governments. It all needs a clean sweep.
We have too comfortable of a life. We're too complacent. We were too far removed from the fascism that spilled over in Europe. We were too padded. It didn't really hit us, in either world war, back here. Our troops came back home and went back to regular life as usual. We had a civil war, but we didn't punish any of the perpetrators. That led us right back where we're at. At the time though, you could survive on your own. Support a family off of the land. There wasn't much of an infrastructure. There was no pain to be felt by the general populace (loss of life aside).
I do think we'll get to full on armed conflict. I feel as though mid terms will be the kicker. I just don't know if armed conflict is where we're at yet. Not that I don't think we should be. It's that the general populace is too comfortable. We, apparently, need our lives to hurt more. To be affected more. Is it sad? Absolutely. Is it very much against everything that the founding fathers envisioned, especially when drafting up the 2nd? Absolutely. They would be completely disgusted with all of us. Myself included.
The first act that started the Tunisian "Arab Spring" was just one street seller being killed by the police.
There is no "correct" spark. And nobody knows what will spark a war until it has happened.
Maybe some guy that gets shot by ICE, maybe some guy that kills an ICE thug, maybe something else.
Absolutely no shade my friend. I am absolutely as pissed off as you are. I really wish it would make a difference. Many of us do. It just isn't quite there yet. The stew is close, we just need the vegetables to get ready.
I love the discourse as well. We don't get a feel for everyone's feelings towards things when we don't. Others may even bring up things we hadn't thought about, or an angle we didn't see.
Good luck to you as well!
The fix is not killing ICE officers.
The civil rights movements of the 60s, Jim Crow, etc, won by being willing to be beaten. By voluntarily entering a cafe and sitting there waiting to be served like a human being, meanwhile being willing to be called names, dropped food and drinks onto them, burnt with cigarettes, abused.
That willingness and perseverance in wanting to be recognised as the human beings they are awoke the rest of the population.
Pacifist demonstrations and matches are a way to achieve that. They are displays for your fellow colleagues, not for the government you want to depose. Make clear that they are pacifist. Prepare and inform the people going. Sit down if you are charged. Stop violent people there. Etc. Make obvious that the fascist are fascists that way and say and invigorate people to your side.
If you want to be effective at changing the system, killing random ICE Nazis won’t do it. Everyone here is advocating peaceful protest, but that also won’t do it - or at least, not by itself.
Instead, consider direct action - sabotage of the means of production that prop up the fascist state.
Take a listen to Rev Left’s interview with Palestine Action to learn what I’m talking about: https://revolutionaryleftradio.libsyn.com/size/5/?search=Palestine+action
I find the bit about believing the lies we're fed as somewhat naive. We're all on a journey, and everyone starts in a different place, with unique foundations.
My current opinions vary wildly from those held 20 years ago. Change is a good thing, and I think it should be expected as the norm.
I haven't felt patriotic for July 4 since I was a teenager. And I grow more aliented every year.
He seems to be the pinnacle of US presidents. It has only been going down since him.
What the fuck would I have to be proud of? The US has been on a downward trend for a long time and that's accelerating
Yeah but before, we could eat BBQ and blow off fireworks and pretend like America is going to fix itself.
Literally nobody I know is doing a cook out.
We have some scheduled on July 12th.
I hear you and I agree
Flags have become a warning over the last decade or so about the person waving it. It no longer has the hope of a better America, solidarity, or welcome; it’s a symbol of a myopic, selfish, aggro, uneducated person full of performative nationalism and real hatreds.
Our independence was supposed to free the people of kings and tyrants. It’s been 249 years since 1776, we have undone what the Constitution authors fought for.
That's what happens if you stick with a quarter-millennium old prototype of a semi-democratic system.
The constitution was revolutionary and ground-breaking, a quarter millennium ago. But still running that old piece of toilet paper as the basis of a democratic system in 2025 is like driving a Ford Model T today and claiming that it still is the latest and greatest automobile ever created.
I always find irony in the fact that the US helped set up better forms of government in the countries it fought in WW2, Japan and Germany, than it could make better in its own country.
It does make sense though. The main motivator for politicians is power. That means, naturally political systems flow towards maximizing power for those in power, that's just the natural progression.
To change this, major political upheavals are necessary, so basically events where the whole old leadership is tossed out and the new leadership can try to setup something to stop the same thing from happening again.
WW2 was perfect for that. All those countries were in need of a completely new political system and thus they could be built better from the ground up.
The US never had any event like that (apart maybe from the civil war).
To change the system without such an event, two thirds of all relevant politicians would have to vote for changing the system that brought them to power. Not likely to happen.
In terms an American can understand: "Imagine a car..."
This is why we have constitutional amendments. It's been extended a good bit over the last centuries. The tools are there but nobody wants to, or can agree on how to, use them.
Have you looked at the amendments? So far there have only been 27 of them over 236 years. Ten of them were created within a year of the constitution being created. They were basically Zero-Day-Patches, not actual amendments, and two amendments only exist to nullify each other (18 and 21) which leaves 15 amendments over 235 years (one of which was actually also created within the first year and only ratified 200 years later).
The last time an amendment was proposed was 54 years ago and the last one ratified was 33 years ago.
Not counting the Zero-Day-Patches, not a lot of these amendments actually change anything fundamental. Notable ones are 12 (governs the election of VP), 13-15 and 19 (civil rights), 17 (election of senators), 22 (president's term limit) and 25 (succession of the president).
Notably absent from the amendments is anything that changes the core political system or electoral system.
Compare that to other countries. In the time that the US constitution hat 15 minor amendments, France had a total of 15 complete constitution re-writes, not even counting amendments. 15 full new constitutions.
Germany had 69 constitutional amendments since 1949 (76 years, so almost one amendment per year, compared to the 1/16 amendments per year in the USA).
But by far the biggest issue is that a constitutional amendment cannot actually fix fundamental systemic issues. The people who have the power to change the constitution came to power within the current system, so if they fundamentally change how the system works (e.g. by repairing the electoral system in a way that more than two parties can be relevant), they are directly cutting into their own power, so of course they won't do that.
That's what you need major constitutional crises for (like e.g. Europe after WW2), so that the constitution can be re-written from scratch, fixing the issues that lead to the crisis.
But the US has been too big to fail for too long and thus there never was anything big enough to take down the US so that it needed to be restarted from scratch. The closest they came to was the civil war, but they didn't take the opportunity to actually overhaul the system. Probably because it was still too early and there wasn't much of a precedent of how to build a better democratic system.
But who knows, at the current rate it might be likely that the US is quite close to another chance to re-write the constitution.
State-level patriotism is always bullshit to begin with.
That's how you're tricked into loyalty based on the most arbitrary reasons.
Be the messenger of humanity and get curious about the Universe. People are brothers, and there's no pride in being born in one plot of land over the other.
The state should be you, the citizens.
The state should not exist. We are people of Earth, and we should not be divided by someone. Divided, we are powerless to make a global change, and those who divide us reap all the benefits of this bullshit system.
Can't answer your post, it's too deep (I'm on Connect, it doesn't handle deep posts very well) so I'm answering your latest post here.
After WW2 (that Russia started with Germany):
Russia occupied half of Europe by force, calling it the soviet union. Most countries didn't have a say and didn't want to be in the union, and no one was allowed to leave. Some were outright invaded like Czechoslovakia.
The USA has military bases all around the world yes, but most of them are wanted by the countries, and if asked the USA will leave (see France for example). The USA has not tried to annex one single country.
If you can't see the difference we'll then I just can't discuss more subtle things with you like countries and borders and gouvernances. So yeah it took a turn there I guess, a shame if it ends, because it's been interesting!
Oh, Connect is still out there? Thought it is dead.
Annexation by USSR touched Baltics and parts of Poland. The rest was more of puppet governments - something the US has practiced extensively all around the globe.
Part of it was ex-Axis powers (like Japan), the other part - just about any government thinking of socialism or economic independence from the US or having oil (Vietnam, Cuba, Chile, Iran, Iraq, Indonesia, Brazil, Bolivia, Cambodia, Syria, Guatemala, China, Egypt - you name it). After the Cold War, there were barely a few years US was not involved in some conflict or the other over its "national interests" or "national security", suggesting that it was never about rivalry with USSR. Needless to say, local population was generally not very happy about getting these military interventions, carpet bombings, coups and instated dictators.
So, I cannot in good faith agree that US was any better in this respect. Both sucked a lot, and same is likely to happen to any grand military power - if anything because military needs experience to stay efficient, and with great power comes great desire to use it to your advantage.
Well the USA is a democracy and Russia is and has always been an autocracy (with that little blip in the nineties). The USA doesn't always value human life like you'd like but Russia outright uses, and has always used, people in slaughters, famins etc.
If you can't see the difference then I do not want to try out your (anarchy?) solution...
Still interesting you can't see your own country for what it is.
For what it is in what respect? You tried to argue that Cold War is a good vs evil situation, I argued that it is very much evil vs evil.
I fully admit Russia is and always was (I told you why nineties don't really count) an autocracy, and that actions of Russian rulers have caused a lot of misery and suffering. This doesn't stop me from admitting the US is a deeply flawed democracy, that American rulers are known to take plenty of unpopular decisions (including wars that no one asked for), and are generally known to not care about lives of people outside the country, causing even more misery all around the globe up to this day.
And this is exactly why I want the governments to have less power, and advocate for direct democracy. Any power is potential for abuse, and Russia and the US have likely proved it the most. Curbing the power of all governments, big and small, has great potential to reduce violence and abuse. With direct democracy and independent media, Russia could have never attacked Ukraine, Israel could never attack Palestine, and US wouldn't threaten to enter Iran yet again. Russia also wouldn't have opposition in jails or abroad, US wouldn't send immigrants to Alligator Alcatraz, and level of human misery would be so much less.
As long as we lead ourselves to believe that this misery and suffering is righteous or "not that bad" to any degree, we empower the tyrants all around the globe.
So we shouldn't band together, to band together.
You should calm down your drug use IMO.
We should band together based on mutual respect and common responsibility, and not based on someone telling us who to band with and who not to.
The concept of nation-state doesn't allow us to band with whoever we like, and calls to unite with people born in place X (and commonly against people born in place Y). The concept of state in general oversees and dictates our relationships more broadly.
Multitude of states all fostering loyalty to their rulers doesn't allow many people to look at those of other nations as equals and fellows with shared global goals. Sure, messages of international peace are commonplace, but hey, we should definitely exclude those pesky Chinese/Russians/Americans/Ukrainians/Israelis/Palestinians/whatever!
When we categorize people by nations through the lens of state, we put easy labels that are far from true. If someone's a Russian, he sure supports war in Ukraine. If someone's American, he sure is personally responsible for all the immigrant scare. If someone's born in Israel or China, clearly he's all on board with genocide!
At the same time, state-level patriotism fosters coming to terms with terrible people within the nation. Sure, our billionaires might be at fault in some ways, but it's better than other country's evil and corrupt billionaires! Our rulers are wise leaders, their rulers are cruel autocrats! My neighbor is a terrible person, but at least he's not one of those !
It forces us to make preference to people who may not deserve our support, who might be actively undermining our causes, it leads us to close our eyes on the sufferings of others outside our arbitrary group that doesn't even share our views and goals.
Now, I know it doesn't have to be that extreme, but patriotism is always showing preference to someone or something based on a very arbitrary characteristic, instead of honest and fair consideration. It's an intentionally cultivated fallacy.
On a personal note, I'd rather avoid ad hominem attacks if you'd like to keep a good faith discussion running. And, FYI, I never take any drugs, not even alcohol.
You're from the US? It smells like you see the whole world through that lens.
Nope, I'm from Russia.
But then again, where does that not have its place? Are people in Europe, say, universally welcoming to immigrants? Or maybe Asia is not full of xenophobia? Africa, at least?..
There are much better factors of unity than being on a certain plot of land.
We can always do our best to make it closer.
Most people claim this to be Utopian, and then just try to tone it down in others, so their own compliance is not seen to themselves as weakness but rather "wisdom". No - it is a surrender, an act of learned helplessness.
Sure, it's hard to force politicians to abandon the concept of nations, and it's hard to bring a revolt to a population so compliant.
But everyone can make personal steps.
First, admit that patriotism is bullshit. There is no ground to be patriotic, and nothing realistically unites you with your "nation". You have more in common with a person of the same position on the other side of the globe than you have with the president of your very "own" country.
Second, watch your own preferences in people and what you factor in your decision. Maybe you give too much weight to where the person comes from? Is it that you label people in some way based on that characteristic alone?
Third, if you have the opportunity, form an international collective, reach out to specialists within other nations, or if you can't, see if you can build a collective or even just a friend group with the immigrants around you.
Fourth - advocate for people in other countries, learn what they face, what they get to endure. For example - do you know that the deadliest of recent wars was not in Ukraine or Palestine, but in Ethiopia? What do you know about the current situation in Myanmar, aside from the Facebook drama? Did you consider supporting women rights' causes in the Middle East?
Personal action and involvement will not allow you to fall for the traps the state tries to implant in your mind, and you'll be personally responsible for a small, but proud piece of international cooperation - one that should become commonplace to the point when it wouldn't make sense for anyone to draw divisions.
Human life is human life. Human suffering is human suffering - here or on the other side of the globe. The concepts of unity, hope, and cooperation are all universally recognized wherever you are. Why not step in?
That is only in theory, like the copcept of democracy
I haven't "celebrated" the fourth in nearly a decade for this reason. On top of that fireworks are pretty bad for everything and those with PTSD.
My coworkers dog would thank you very much as well for not shooting off fireworks. He said he usually drives out of town for a few hours until it dies down because his dog gets terrified :(
Yeah, forgot to mention pets. All of mine hate the fireworks, so it makes for a miserable time all around.
And it's not just pets either, wildlife also gets affected by firework
I’ve never been more ashamed to be an American.
I'm a-shamed to be an A-merican,
Where at least now I can't see.
And I won't forget the libs who cried,
Who gave that right to me.
Lemmy sings
well, at least you've got the knowledge that I'm proud of you for that
As an immigrant to the US, I've always found the blind patriotism commonplace here to be very strange. It feels even more alienating now than ever before.
Our country is under MAGA Nazis rule, and that is nothing to celebrate. Independence Day should be a Day of Resistance, until the MAGA Nazis lose their control.
Havent felt proud to be an American in a long while. I'm proud of loving thy neighbor as myself, not lining the pockets of billionaires. I hate that I'm powerless to do much. Representative democracy? My ass. No one represents me. They're all aristocrats. "it's one banana, Michael. What could it cost, $10?"
I'm not bitter about it at all. /s
Kinda interesting how you US-Americans have a certain day for being even more patriotic than the average US-patriotism rest of the time. As a German I personally haven't felt patriotic at any point in my life and most of the people I know (probably more left-leaning than German average) always looked at your patriotism (espacially on July 4th) with a certain lack of understanding. Why even be patriotic? Why always raise the US-flag? Why are there Florida men running through hurricanes with an US-flag? I know independence and stuff, but still why celebrate your patriotism even more on a specific date, even as a more left-leaning person?
I mean, I'd think of it as like being proud of your home and the accomplishments of the country. That doesn't seem very odd to me. It's just that lately, I feel like as a nation we are just making so many mistakes and I feel ashamed, not proud of the country.
I have no enthusiasm to raise the US flag this July 4th, excepting maybe showing it upside down as a sign of distress.
When I think about the US and its future, I just get a sinking feeling and I don't feel very happy about it. I'm ashamed how far this country has fallen in the past two decades.
It hasn’t really fallen, it’s just saying the quiet part out loud for once.
fr, it's honestly just business as usual except some white people are facing material consequences and their government is being too obvious with its imperialism.
US was built on fascist doctrine and will continue that legacy until systematic change.
Don't really understand that either. I could understand celebrating the date at which you got an united democracy, that's certainly an accomplishment. Even that happend a quarter millennium ago, you (even your grandmother) didn't take part in it and nowadays there's no British monarchy you can annoy by being a democracy, but celebrating democracy as a concept always is great. But you don't do that. All what I see from the Atlantic Ocean's other side is some people celebrating something which is written under "Nationality" in their passports. I personally can't celebrate something as complex/indefinite as a country. I don't think complex really is the best word for it, but what I mean is that countries never are only good and also "country" itself is a term so obscure and indefinite. The country existed for nearly 250 years, billions of people lived in it and some terrible stuff happend in and because of it. Wars and crimes and war crimes of leading personell, etc. Surely also some good stuff, but how to seperate that? You simply can't. Is Ronald Reagan part of what you're celebrating, is Donald Trump part of it? Is democracy part of it? Is some random 1800s-farmer part of it? Are people even part of it and if no why? Are the country's borders part of it? Is the tree standing in your backyard part of it? You can't ignore the killing of civilians in Vietnam war while including democracy or can you? What's home? Is it your family? Your house? Both?
One thing is for sure: You aren't the country, you just live at some place on the world which happens to be territory of something named "USA". Same for me, I have been born at some place which happens to be territory of something called "Germany". Why should I be proud about the place where I was born? That's no achievement, I didn't even contribute to it. I'm proud that I managed to contribute to democracy by protesting and voting. I also felt proud about the A I got in some elementary school test. I'm really proud about switching from Windows to Arch Linux in less than 2 hours. I may some day feel proud for my children while watching them doing something great. I contributed to all of this more or less directly and I can feel proud about it for that reason. But why should I feel proud about a country? Germany is nothing I'm responsible for, the (current path of the) USA is nothing you are responsible for. If you were responsible for it, why shouldn't I be too?
We can't feel proud about it, we can't feel ashamed for it, because it isn't our fault. However we can change the current situation. Changing the world, having the courage to try it, is something we can feel proud about.
This is just such an odd post for me. I know people that have Nordic or Germanic ancestors and love to celebrate and love that part of their heritage with yearly parties or festivals. Isn't it a normal human reaction to feel proud of your "tribe"?
I'm not claiming to have invented the USA, and sure, I was just born here. I didn't land on the moon myself, but I feel proud of the USA when I think about Neil Armstrong doing it.
The USA isn't all bad, and my life would have had a different track if I was born somewhere else. I think you might be reading too much into it? July 4 isn't some kind of cult meeting over here where we all chant over the flag and run around in robes. For most people, there's maybe a parade, a cookout or two, and a day off.
Of all the problems in the USA, people celebrating July 4 or feeling some national pride is way down on my list, and I'd say somewhat typical of people to feel proud about their home.
To be honest: Sounds like some nazi stuff, at least that would be my first impression if someone did it here.
Sarcasm joins the room May be, but killing each other was a normal human reaction for millenia. Sadly still is today sometimes.
NASA is great and I really like it, I feel good for humanity because it is able to do different thing than killing. I wouldn't call that proud, because I didn't contribute to it. Even space travelling is to complex to like all of it, moon landing was part of some foolish trial of strength on earth- No, I won't overanalyse it.
I know your July 4th isn't a cult meeting, but patriotism seems like something invented for people who have nothing they can feel proud about, because they haven't archived something to be proud about. (Don't take that personal.) At the same time patriotism tends to sperate different groups of people which shouln't be seperated since they all are part of humanity and could archive great stuff together. It's the one thing evil persons can rely on if they want to create a scapegoat to make people fight this scapegoat instead of seeing that they –the people– all are just part of humanity and should revolt against their evil leaders.
WTF?? I went to one of these parties with my neighbor and he shared his favorite bratwurst recipe and prepared delicious cabbage dishes for us. How does that relate to Nazis?!? You do realize not every German is a Nazi, right?
Just to remember: I'm German myself. I didn't say they are nazis, I said "Sounds like some nazi stuff, at least that would be my first impression if someone did it here". I don't want to implement Godwin's Law in this constructive discussion. In my opinion it sounds like nazi stuff, because a lot of German nazis I know love to fantasize about their "Germanic roots". That's my first impression while I don't have much detail what you are referring to, since I never experienced such a celebration myself.
Could you understand my position better by what I wrote aside from that stuff about Garmanic celebrations? Because I would like to better understand the US-American view on patriotism while explaining my own.
I could substitute some other examples but the two most recent events I had attended were those two nationalities / heritage. In the past, it's been Portuguese, Polish, French, Irish and probably a few more I've forgotten.
I think if you want to understand the American view on patriotism, just have a giant crowd of people who rarely, if ever, leave their country, speak only English, are fed propaganda that their country is the best in all areas, has massive problems with education, and then you have the American public.
If you are told your country is the best, are very incurious and are fed propaganda, you will love your country unconditionally. I don't want to give you the impression that everyone in the country is brainwashed, I'm just trying to convey that at least a percentage of our population honestly believes they live in the best country in the world.
Don't get me wrong, the USA is still highly developed and has its strengths, but if you look at some (what I believe to be) important statistics like, life expectancy, literacy rate, happiness index, internet speed, press freedom, we sure as hell aren't #1, but we aren't in last place either.
It's been sad to watch science come under increasing criticism instead of developing positively. Just today, a new budget was proposed for the federal government that makes sweeping cuts to quite a few organizations, like the Department of Energy, the Environmental Protection Agency, NASA (our space agency), and most importantly, the National Science Foundation.
The one thing that I feel good about is even if we drop the ball here in the USA, other countries won't stand still and will continue to fund and pursue science, technology and education.
The reasons above is why I find it hard to be excited and wave an American flag around on the 4th. Things could be worse but they could be a hell of a lot better too.
July 4th is the day our nation was founded which is what merits the fanfare. I would also say that the "displays of patriotism" you may see are largely cherry picked examples. Your typical american doesn't wear american flag regalia, much less own an american flag and wave it around.
Right now, the reason you are seeing such a pronounced amount of patriotism for Independence day, and I use that term loosely, is due to it being both the 250th anniversary and the current unpopular administration trying to project an alternate reality where they are in tune with the will of the people and establish legitimacy.
There is a lot that can probably be said about the erosion of patriotism in the US as it was co-opted by conservative groups in order to push unpopular policies throughout our nations brief span of existence and it likely ties into the destruction of our education system, but I'd rather let someone more knowledgable tackle that topic.
I deliberately exaggerated, but I dont't understand patriotism in general (see comment under OPs response on my comment).
Ah, I misunderstood then. To oversimplfy patriotism is being able to love the people, thoughts, and accomplishments of a community (country) that you belong to while seeing and understanding its flaws.
I've seen some other comments here describe it to various extremes but there is a clear line between patriotism and nationalism (e.g. Nazis, MAGA, etc) A patriot understands that their country isn't infallible, a nationalist beilieves it is.
For some people the only thing they have is this sense of belonging to a group, and for others this sense of belonging is what incites them to implicitly care for the success of others.
To clarify not everyone is a patriot, nor a nationalist. People have a wide range of feelings and perceptions on the idea of a nation and their place in it.
I apologize if this doesn't provide more clarity. The topic of patriotism is largely a philisophocal one that would take more time to yap about than I have on my lunch break lol
Most of us just like the day off from work, or the holiday pay if you have to work. and that's where it ends.
The USA has never had an event to make Americans from shame for the country. It isn't like the USA hasn't done shameful acts, but there hasn't been a reconging of what the country has done.
What, exactly, should I be proud of?
A nation that is moving backwards on human rights, increasing wealth inequality, and got really “mask off” about supporting genocide. A nation that is inherently dysfunctional and wreathed in corruption.
I think that’s normal considering everything going on.
By the way, I live in the CA bay area. Interestingly I went grocery shopping today and no kidding -I felt like I was in a small town in the midwest or something. I looked around and it was mostly older white people shopping, like you couldn’t help but notice. I told my bf, wtf are we in Idaho or something lol this doesn’t feel like the bay area?
I think there’s a combination of people being tired of increasing inflation and burnt out by the barrage of shit going on in the news. I don’t imagine minorities, particularly immigrant families are feeling very patriotic right now. Or people are straight up worried about ICE kidnappings. Which by the way, I heard from a neighbor that ICE has been walking into the hospital she works at and waiting outside to snatch people. Terrible…
Not necessarily. Problem is when patriotism is not defined positively through your countries achievments and striving for self improvement, but through negativity to other people.
The US patriotism evidently revolves around the latter, so does most patriotism i have witnessed in European countries. I cant speak for so many other countries as i havent visited them enough.
So do any countries exhibit what you call positive patriotism, or is this purely a theoretical objection?
Countries as a whole? That is difficult to say. Typically you won't here much from such countries, as they don't enforce themselves on others.
I've never felt patriotic. It's not like I chose to be here and, frankly, the more I learned about the rest of the world, the more I dislike about my own home.
Also fireworks are boring af unless you're manipulating them to be more dangerous and blowing things up. Like hammering down a whistler and tossing it into a porta potty where an ICE agent is taking a shit.
I believe you're supposed to fly a flag upside down in times of distress.
I think it would be wildly powerful for some cities to flip their flags for the 4th.
I've never had a flag out front of my house.
The day that orange fucker kicks the bucket, I'm putting in a flagpole and flying that bitch at full mast.
My shotgun's flag is nailed upside down.
I'm surprised there aren't massive protests scheduled for July 4.
I believe there are
I'm going out to a march on the 4th of July. We're protesting for independence from America
Going to be spending the 4th building guillotines in my garage
Can I help?
The more the merrier
People around the country have stood up to make change.
Our politicians haven't done good for the people.
Take back the power.
Join a No Kings March on July 4th
Celebrate the awesome people of this country, join in.
We want massive change. Politicians may act deaf to anything but money. The money flow changes when we stand together
Being a Brit, for years I've jokingly referred to the 4th of July as 'Rebellion Day' to my USian friends. Not sure I'm joking any more, just hopeful. Go on. Rebel!
Overthrow your tyrannical government, you won't.
Same I will be working on the 4th so I’ll just be making good hoilday pay while most of my trump supporting coworkers will be celebrating the downfall of this country. Fuck this shit, fuck everyone who is onboard with the current situation of this country. Stay safe everyone.
Canadian here and we celebrated the fuck out of our national holiday which just passed. We have a stronger feeling of solidarity than we've felt in a long time. Despite the threats of annexation and shifting tariffs, we are feeling more hopeful than we have in many years, possibly because we're making new friends in the global sandbox and coming into our own power now instead of constantly kowtowing to the USA in all matters.
Except a few folks in Alberta who would love to be part of the modern Nazi regime. Fuck them, tho.
Personally, I'm not feeling that same vibe. I think the solidarity against the US is a very good thing, but the sheer amount of ways Canada is just "America Light" is very depressing. Its to the point that our flag has been so sullied by absolutely shit tier movements in the last 5 years that I can't stand to see it anymore.
Every time I see a private flag pole, bumper stickers or anything kind of patriotic merch my knee jerk reaction is "I bet this dude's a fuckwad." I know that I'm painting with a huge and shitty brush but I just can't even fight against it anymore. I know it's wrong. I just don't care, and that makes me sad.
I live comfortably here, but given even a minutely convenient reason to emigrate I think I'd take it.
Canada is a car infested, anti-human shit hole just like America. To paraphrase Steve Harris of Iron Maiden a bit "We oil the jaws of the
warcapitalist machine and feed it with ourbabiesimmigrants."I've felt like that for years, too. But Canadians boycotting en masses, then soundly rejecting mini-Trump has given me hope. Since then, our leader has been reaching out to other countries to form new relationships and deals. We just signed a rare earth minerals deal with Greenland, of all places.
Yes, Canada has been hamstrung by US demands but the vice-grip they've had over us has deteriorated. This wouldn't have happened if not every single other country in the world was going through the same thing. So it feels a bit like a rebirth to me, with the possibility of finally being able to come into our own as a nation.
I find it reassuring that some people are not proud of grabbing random people off the street to send them to their death with a smile.
That's the majority of Americans. Beyond what was almost certainly a stolen election (large scale, billionaire-bankrolled propaganda, campaigns, voter disenfranchisement, and probably voting machine manipulation), Trump's disapproval rating since starting that shit has skyrocketed.
We are in an awful fascist quagmire of a situation that we are going to have to fight to free ourselves from, but that doesn't mean that the actions of this administration actually represent us.
Aww. Please celebrate - don't give the orange turd the satisfaction of destroying yet more American culture. Also, I won't be happy posting my favourite annual meme:
But celebrate what? The opening of our concentration camps and the country's fall to the stupidest dictator imaginable? I suppose we could drink to the ashes...
I’ll celebrate a day I don’t have to go to work
Why feel patriotic for a country that literally stole/claimed what wasn't theirs to being with? Never felt such a thing for this so called "first world".
Whose was it? At what point in history was ownership established and why was it not the previously displaced people's instead? How long does it take to establish ownership, and what means are justified to do so? Who exactly is the United States anyway?
World history for millennia has shown that the conquerors write the rules. Ownership is established immediately upon victory. It matters not if you're a yanomamo tribe living 1000 years ago or a modern military 1st world country. The victors write the rules.
I normally enjoy some fireworks every year, but have zero interest this year.
Because of Patriotism they had it so easy to turn it into Nationalism and now turn it to fascism.
Feeling patriotic towards a country of traitors.
US best values have been lost long time ago.
I was hoping everyone would turn out for another No Kings event but I guess too many people complained.
If we can’t be proud of the mess we’re in now, maybe we can be proud of the people who speak up, who try to create change. Maybe we can hark back to our origins tearing down oppressive political and corporate systems. Maybe we can hold up the mythical ideas that used to unite us and fight to make them true. It’s our duty as patriotic citizens to set our country on the right path toward one we can be proud of.
WELL SAID!
I imagine almost everyone who's not American, like 95.5% of the world population.
Patriotism is jingoism at this point. Haven't felt that for decades.
Not American. But I don't even know when my country's national day is. I know there's one because they always do a military parade with the king and always something goes wrong, and we laugh about it. But I can even tell what day it is until I see it on the news.
You have a good king/gov if they arent bashing swallow patriotism into your skull in school... where are you from?
Spain.
King is a moron, but happily he is just politically powerless.
I mean, there is that kind of nationalism patriots here. We have our share of people talking about "bringing back the spanish empire" or "bring back Franco". And they surely obsess about national day. I just don't care.
Heh, I was thinking the same, didn't know exactly when the day was. So maybe we indeed have something going on for ouselves.
Con todo el enriedo con separatistas qué hay en España hubiera esperado un mayor empuje nacionalista en las escuelas... bien por españa. Acá en Argentina es así, nacionalismo ciego y revisionismo en las escuelas, pero revisionismo selectivo. Un maldito asco.
Traer de vuelta a Franco? Es joda? Pensé que era re contra taboo. Acá a veces se dice "con videla estábamos mejor" pero es más en chiste para decir que hay que mandar todo a la mierda... (espero)
Igual, hagan lo que quieran, yo les tengo un amor ciego a ustedes..
#ConLaCasaDeAustriaEstabamosMejor
Algo ha habido pero no tanto como pudieras imaginar. También yo siempre he hecho oidos sordos, así que igual hay más de lo que yo he visto.
Pero lo de Franco, por desgracia sí, mucha gente dice la frase típica "con Franco estábamos mejor". Algunos lo dicen enserio, otros para molestar. Pero es preocupante. Sobre todo cuando se escucha entre los más jóvenes.
I read a few places (I am non american) that there will be no kings protests all over the states on July 4th.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2025/06/24/anti-trump-protest-in-july-is-the-next-no-kings-july-4-the-latest-july-17-protest-good-trouble/84324250007/
https://time.com/7299015/anti-trump-administration-protests-united-states-july-4-independence-day/
youre not alone
https://lemmy.world/post/32286445
This link is broken
hmmmm try this
https://lemmy.world/post/32286445
the other link is from an instance with a log in requirement
Thanks, that works now
4th of July? You mean the Ungrateful Colonists Insurgence Day?
The ONLY reason I give a shit about July 4th this year is that it’s a long weekend and the last chance we’ll have to spend with family before we move out of state in two weeks.
I’m even glad it’s supposed to rain the entire time, so I won’t even feel pressured to celebrate with fireworks!
I'm not doing anything for the forth. Fuck America, I am not celebrating my country, because my country wants me dead. Fuck em.
It's been almost 20 years since I felt patriotic. I mostly just comfort the dog and hope the yahoos don't accidentally burn my house down.
I haven't been necessarily patriotic for a long time because why pledge allegiance to a single nation? The only reason I really care about July 4 is the fireworks. It's more tradition than anything that I see them.
Anyways, both of his terms make me feel vindicated in not being patriotic in a country.
I mean I always stay home because I'm an introvert, but yeah, mirroring what other's have already said in this thread, I haven't had much to feel patriotic about since at least the Dubya Bush years. So probably more than 20 years of not feeling it.
Sounds like a great day for a false flag attack to solidify the masses against a perceived threat.
I'm boycotting America this year.
There's nothing left to be proud of. Just vague platitudes about freedom and performative military worship that have been socially beaten into people since 2001. I have no faith remaining in my fellow countrymen. I am unable to clearly see a future for myself living here as I am now. What is left to be patriotic about?
All the true patriots are dead. They were buried long ago. Modern patriotism is a marketing gimmick. I refuse to be a party to it.
I would be very concerned about anybody who is feeling patriotic this year
being hopeful and not having given up is one thing. but patriotic? entirely shameful
I get double pay for the holiday, yay!
Call for independence from everything GOP and Trump on July 4th?
Right now I'd call my mood more embarrassed than patriotic.
Yep. Staying home, donating, or protesting if something’s going on. It’s just a long weekend to me now. No flag flying at this home for sure… unless it’s a No Kings flag.
FYI the Women's March org is hosting "Free America" protests for the July 4th weekend. See the Women's March site here. Some other groups may be organizing protests too, but from what I've read the WM ones are probably the biggest.
If there's not a scheduled protest nearby there's always the option to make a sign and take to a street corner for a solo protest. If you're feeling especially ambitious there's always making a giant sign to prop up against the chain link at an interstate overpass (I've never done this but it looks fun).
My friends and I use it as an excuse to have a get together. None of us use it to celebrate the United States or its independence.
I haven't gone to see fireworks in a few years. Recently I just go to Walmart and buy some big packs and let my kids enjoy lighting them off and just having fun. Plus the long weekend is awesome.
Always have been, always will be.
Don't worry, once they deported or killed all the
Jewsillegals the prices will surely come down.You're not a wallet. You're an automaton producing value for capitalists.
They dribble a little money into your wallet each fortnight so you can buy subscriptions and delivered take away.
Fair.
I think you mean No Kings Day.
Oh goodness no. America has fallen, what the fuck does July 4th mean.
I'm celebrating Happy Fireworks Day!
I've got new neighbors that are probably about to hear, "Fire in the hole!" unironically for the first time. You can actually see the shockwave from my blackpowder signal cannon. Good chance the cops show up.
I usually use the cannon to vaporize 10oz of kerosene for a nice mushroom cloud of fire, but I'll have to see how it goes.
I'm a pyro.
Y'all wear safety glasses if having bottle rocket fights or roman candle duels.
Yeah I’m just sick of all the greed and racism. I just want some MANSA (Make America not suck anymore)
I would like MANA (Make America Nice Again)
I thought you guys don't celebrate it that much any more? Heard it got replaced with a Trump Birthday Military Parade Day or someshit. And it sucked so much that nobody is doing holidays anymore. Sorry, I'm in Europe, the news are coming in slowly from the US these days
Not sure what you're referring to, but the 4th hasn't really changed. Maybe you're confusing it with the (laughable) military parade Trump did for his own birthday?
Personally I've long found patriotism to be a pretty abhorrent concept, but I've always enjoyed the opportunity to spend time with my family regardless. To me, the 4th is much more about community than it is the country. And while this country is fucking awful, I do have a pretty great community around me that I'm grateful for.
Me, but not from USA, so....
How about you stage a huge protest, and this time you don't leave until Fuckwad McClowncar is out of the Whitehouse?
Not much of a social safety net. Take that much time off work and things are going to get uncomfortable pretty fast. Last I heard, it's like 1/3 of America that is two paychecks away from losing their housing. It's sad.
And what do you think will happen to pretty much all of them in one or two years time?
Come to think of it, i guess the US made a perfect system to quell protests; Just make it impossible for people to take time off work, nobody will be able to protest even your most sadistic fascist laws
Correct. Bread, circuses and riot police (optional).
Rent costs half a month's pay, so that checks out.
How many will die on July 4th? What parade will be targeted? Who will be the next mass murderer? Stay home for your safety people. Too many crazies out there now to do anything in public.
We used to have porch lights twinkling in red, white, and blue all July. This year, we're just flashing blue adamently. And that only because our lights can't radiate black.
Careful, you might get mistaken for Thin Blue Line folks.
You know what will make you feel better? Learn about early American history, specifically the Revolutionary War and the period shortly before it. Ordinary citizens conquered one of the most powerful militaries in the world. Ordinary citizens. People like you and me. There was no “perfect savior” to lead them, either - George Washington was in over his head at first, but was smart enough to learn from his mistakes.
What’s going on now is nothing to celebrate, but the ani-establishment heroes of the past certainly are.
The Regulator Movement in North Carolina, also known as the Regulator Insurrection, War of Regulation, and War of the Regulation, was an uprising in Provincial North Carolina from 1766 to 1771 in which citizens took up arms against colonial officials who they viewed as corrupt. Historians such as John Spencer Bassett argue that the Regulators did not wish to change the form or principle of their government, but simply wanted to make the colony's political process more equal. They wanted better economic conditions for everyone, instead of a system that heavily benefited the colonial officials and their network of plantation owners mainly near the coast
During the American Revolution, many prominent Regulators became Loyalists, like James Hunter who fought at the Battle of Moore's Creek Bridge. ... The Regulators notably were never against the monarchy - their issue was with local corruption and elites abusing them.
Dunmore's Proclamation was formally proclaimed on November 15. Its publication prompted between 800 and 2,000 slaves (from both Patriot and Loyalist owners) to run away and enlist with Dunmore. It also raised a furor among Virginia's slave-owning elites (including those who had been sympathetic to Britain), to whom the possibility of a slave rebellion was a major fear.
Later British commanders over the course of the American Revolutionary War followed Dunmore's model in enticing slaves to defect—the 1779 Philipsburg Proclamation, which applied across all the colonies, was more successful. By the end of the war, at least 20,000 slaves had escaped from plantations into British service
Shays's Rebellion was an armed uprising in Western Massachusetts and Worcester in response to a debt crisis among the citizenry and in opposition to the state government's increased efforts to collect taxes on both individuals and their trades.
When the Revolutionary War ended in 1783, Massachusetts merchants' European business partners refused to extend lines of credit to them and insisted that they pay for goods with hard currency, despite the country-wide shortage of such currency. Merchants began to demand the same from their local business partners, including those operating in the market towns in the state's interior. Many of these merchants passed on this demand to their customers, although Governor John Hancock did not impose hard currency demands on poorer borrowers and refused to actively prosecute the collection of delinquent taxes. The rural farming population was generally unable to meet the demands of merchants and the civil authorities, and some began to lose their land and other possessions when they were unable to fulfill their debt and tax obligations. This led to strong resentments against tax collectors and the courts, where creditors obtained judgments against debtors, and where tax collectors obtained judgments authorizing property seizures.
Just remember that the American Revolution was a bourgeois revolution that failed to address many of the underlying economic conditions plaguing the colonies from the outset. Yes, the American merchant class beat back the British Monarchists. But no, that wasn't a happily-ever-after for the proletariat of the nascent nation.
I'm feeling patriotic enough to burn US flags and I'm not even from the US!
Family is doing a get-together but if I hear any patriotic bullshit, I'm gone, but with them, it's unlikely to even hear the holiday they're gathering for mentioned. They just needed an excuse to party.
I've decided to actively take the flag back from conservatives. There are some good ideals and good people in this country, and good people who fought for those ideals. I'm not proud of most of what the government has done and all of what it is doing now, but I can be proud of the people who want to get along with everyone and fight for diversity and freedom and the good things that should be fought for.
Canadian here. I spent most of July 1 in bed! Was not feeling patriotic! Did not watch any fireworks.
I don't even like to call myself American. I'm a veteran, and it turned me off of America more than anything.
I’m very proud to be a Californian. I’m utterly embarrassed to be an American.
I grew up with smart parents. We were never patriotic, this country has sucked for decades
No. Though I'm not American which may impact that
that's really unamerican of you
Fuck yeah
Unless a large protest is happening in my city, I'm not planning to be outside on July 4.
Plan it
I’ll be staying home this year. There is nothing to celebrate. At this point I’d rather watch it all burn down.
Celebrate the Birth Of Your Country By Blowing Up A Small Part Of It
Florida is well on its way
Not at all, but I'll take the paid day off
I'll make a nice meal and reflect on what's driving us further from the country we're supposed to be. Thinking of it more like memorial day until there's something to celebrate again.
I don't know if I ever did but I certainly don't now.
I just want my day off so I can have morning sex with my partner and set fireworks off with my kids.
Yeah… feels like the meaning behind the holiday has been completely lost. It’s hard to celebrate when so many people are struggling with basic things like housing and healthcare.
It’s a free show. With the right people it’s good, but I understand your feeling.
I’m excited, it’s British Thanksgiving!
Britains, thanks for giving up.
I'm not celebrating patriotism. I'm celebrating a 3 day weekend.
The last patriotism got squeezed out of me a good decade ago.
I could give two shits about this holiday.
Don't throw out the baby with the bath water. Nobody has ever liked everything about the US. Not even George Washington. If you can't appreciate the good about the country just because you're paying attention to the bad currently then you should have never celebrated it in the first place because the bad was always there.
The things you dont like about America don't have to be your complete view of the country or its history. If there is even a small thing you have ever liked about the country then the 4th is for celebrating that.
Celebrate our victories. Celebrate our culture and our successes. Celebrate how mad people are going to be at you for celebrating. Celebrate that there are like-minded people elsewhere in the country. Real Americans in hard times and with doubts. Celebrate our history and our positive contributions to the rest of the world.
Celebrate a possible and hopeful future of what comes after.
This, but OP, I think, pointed to the issue maybe without realizing it:
If you feel you are just a.cog in a capitalist machine and not a citizen of a country, why would you celebrate?
It feels like Fox news and all the wedge issues have done their work and destroyed our sense of collective citizenship. Now the GOP is doing their corporate owners' bidding.
I do feel like a cog. I don't feel like a valued citizen -- I just feel like some schmuck the administration and/or multinational corporations can siphon money from. The attitude of the USA doesn't feel like "Let's work together to make a great place!" Lately, it feels more to me like "Fuck everyone else, I want to get paid!"
It feels almost abusive.
One of the craziest things to me is it's 100% demonstrable the USA spends some of the most money per person on health care and does not get anywhere close to the top outcomes in health care, but if you ask people on the street, many of them will say USA is #1 in healthcare.
That's the point where patriotism turns the corner into delusion.
I'm sorry your view of things is so bleak. I'll fire off an Excalibur round for you Friday.
I liked when we stopped putting immigrants in interment camps after WWII. They're building new one now so what am I meant to celebrate again?
Can't type.... Robot AI dog is following me....gotta keep running. Freedom!
Honestly nationalism for the US has always been kinda gross to me. We've never really had much to be proud of as a nation historically.
Well in that case there probably isn't a single nation ever that should be proud.
Nobody i know is hosting or attending a formal celebration, aside from one person attending a "Fuck Trump" bbq instead.
I'm gonna be drunk enough to quiet the fireworks. Every 4th in LA, it's like a war zone.
I would welcome a brain drain to Europe.
i never understood how people especially can be proud of once country. in Europe being a patriot is very much frowned upon.
Lot of people I know are staying home, Generally on the 4th, for the last decade trumpers get black out drunk and end up killing people with their boats and gaint trucks.
This is all I've talked about at work.
What are we supposed to take pride in specifically? I suppose pride in our resilience--there is great potential to learn from our repetitious failures surely
While walking the dog I keep tabs on houses that have flags up, and there has been an uptick for about a month now. I assume it’s for the 4th, but I’m curious who will keep their flags up.
I’ve also noticed that some people keep putting theirs up then taking them down, and I wonder what changes…
Yup.
I'm kinda the opposite, but I have the same reasons. I love where I live, I just wish they'd do better and I do what I can to help. I don't need to wave a flag, people can see where I stand by what I do. If that's not patriotism I don't know what is.
I'm a pyro by nature, and love things that go boom. But yeah, not doing anything tomorrow.
Considering I dont live in the US, yes
Crossing my fingers for the local firework display barge catch fire in the bay. I just want a fun omen.
I've never celebrated the 4th of July because I've been patriotic, I've done it because it's fun. When I stopped believing in God I didn't stop celebrating Christmas. In the same way Christmas is about gifts and seeing family, the 4th of July is about fireworks and seeing friends.
bravely seating down
Yep, not celebratin shit. Wife wants to invite friends over mostly cuz it’s a free day off.
I’m traveling outside the US. Got a decent price on the flights too
I have never really felt patriotic for that date, June 6th is more apropriate, or even better, june 20th (this year)
yeah. but nothing to do with the country this is personal for me
it's just a day off to me, a chance to get wasted lol
I hope you keep this energy when your country does something stupid that you don't agree with.
God I hate Lemmy sometimes. Go buy some fireworks, get the grill out, and hang with family. I don't fucking care if you're not into it. Just do it.
Get off the screen for a few hours. You need it
I dont need an occation to touch grass and meet friends
Op does
What's the point in doing it if I'm not into it? Who am I doing it for at that point?
Your own mental health
You’re in the wrong sub.
No
Yes. It'll be good for you
How the hell would you know? Any fool who asserts that they know what's best for a complete strange they know nothing about is not someone I would EVER trust.
Celebrating a descent into fascism? Oh, but of course, celebrating the complete breakdown of social support structures as they're replaced with the populace getting terrorized by our own military is OBVIOUSLY such an unparalleled cause for celebration.
Wait, no, that's fucking asinine. When did you last touch grass, buddy???
Go touch grass.
See, you can't even get that right. They just sprayed my lawn!
Sheesh, dude. It's like you're not even trying! Oh, wait... ʕ ͡° ʖ̯ ͡°ʔ
There's grass outside of your own lawn. Go touch grass.
Oh, god. You're so boring!!
LIVE A LITTLE!
I'd say it won't hurt, bit I lie. Don't worry, though; it builds character. 😆
But seriously, go away now...
How do fireworks help my neighbor's PTSD, let alone my own mental health?
I can grill on my own time, thanks.
Don't be a Debbie Downer
And then he said what! Lmfaooo
Aww, conservadaddy is upset the American tradition is dying of its own consequences. "Just do it 😭" they say.
🎻 🎶
boom boom out go the lights
You should go touch grass too