OP, per Rule 4, for accessibility reasons, an image of text must either have alt text or a transcript in the post body.
Edit: Counting this as a warning for future posts, OP, but since you might not be here to address this, a transcript in a comment as a lesser substitute:
Bushra Shaikh (@Bushra1Shaikh): How TF did Americans vote the clown in, not once but TWICE.
Readers added context
This creator posted on Election Day 2024: "Punish the democrats for their passive response to the genocide in Palestine. If there ever was a party who should have stood firmly against it, we would've assumed the Dems. They proved otherwise. F Kamala Harris. Hope she loses.” [truncated URL to the post here]
I remember arguing for days, in 2024, that the whole "Democrats are bad because Palestine" thing was clearly a psyop by Russian bots trying to mess with the election. I really need to improve my persuasion skills. Like by a lot.
Even knowing that Trump was going to actively help Bibi? That's the thing I didn't understand: sure, the Democrats were not doing much to stop the slaughter, but from the previous Trump administration we knew Trump was going to actively help.
One side probably won't stop it, but they're on our side so there's a sliver of a cintilla of a chance we could pressure them into it.
The other side absolutely would not, vocally stated he would help accelerate it, and would laugh in our faces and do even more to accelerate it for no other reason than it made us mad.
The choice should have been obvious, even if I and everyone else would have preferred better options.
I know people who felt that both sides at least tacitly supporting the genocide was so depressing that for their mental health they basically checked out of politics.
No, that response isn't helpful, but it's a very real thing that happens to real people. They needed a candidate that cared that people's lives were ending across the sea, and neither side offered that.
That hurt Kamala's chances in a very real way, and might even be the deciding factor for Trump's second term.
While you and I can look at this and go "Wow, that's not logical, she's way better than Trump", the Democratic campaign should have had political scientists and psychologists that knew about this well-documented phenomenon. I imagine they did, and ignored it, because siding against Israel would've cost money.
So while it's true that the choice was still objectively obvious, it's also completely true that the Democratic campaign absolutely mishandled it, because this isn't some new phenomenon, and group human psychology isn't unpredictable. It's also not the fault of those who didn't vote because of that.
While you and I can look at this and go “Wow, that’s not logical, she’s way better than Trump”, the Democratic campaign should have had political scientists and psychologists that knew about this well-documented phenomenon. I imagine they did, and ignored it, because siding against Israel would’ve cost money.
D and R parties both need independent voters to win any election. For example, even if every D voted for a D, they would lose without independents voting for them in significant numbers. This has been a political fact for many years.
So... why did the Harris campaign target REPUBLICAN voters (instead of Ds and independents)? They wasted a lot of vital time on that ("He doesn't need to know who you voted for" etc), and they knew that they would lose if they did so.
She knew it too, Harris isn't stupid. She took a knee.
yep, and the Dem leadership still support israel no matter what they do. They learned nothing and will try to set up the same voter hostage situation in every vote from now on.
But we've got a bunch of supposed leftists in this very thread talking about how they wouldn't vote for these types of democrats. These are people that obsensibly are self aware enough not to let their supposedly so well informed morality be determined by feeling bummed out about their options.
I don't expect miracles from the average, barely informed voter. I do fucking expect supposed informed leftists to not actively campaign against voting. I expect them to fucking understand this "obvious" situation. THAT is my main sticking point.
Yes, and white people get depressed about racism, so they just ignore what bums them out. Insane that a defense of online leftists amounts to "they just such smol bean, they too bummed for voting sad face".
While you and I can look at this and go “Wow, that’s not logical, she’s way better than Trump”, the Democratic campaign should have had political scientists and psychologists that knew about this well-documented phenomenon. I imagine they did, and ignored it, because siding against Israel would’ve cost money.
At the very least maybe the Dem party should have been smart enough lie publically that they would censor Israel and reevaluate US support of Israel (even if they wouldn't actually follow through). It's almost like losing is preferable to risking any AIPAC $.
I know people who felt that both sides at least tacitly supporting the genocide was so depressing that for their mental health they basically checked out of politics.
to do that in a democracy is beyond shameful.
You don't have to be invested at the grass roots or debating magats but you can still turn up at a polling station on election day, or do a fucking postal vote
Just because humans are vulnerable to certain psychological effects, doesn't mean it's not the fault of those who were effected by them. Humans are also vulnerable to stress eating. That doesn't remove the blame from fat asses with no self-control.
And this person absolutely should have better self-control, whoever the fuck, sorry, TF she is.
We don't live in a world of "should", in the real world of course it is demoralizing and affects the vote turnout.
We all know the US government will back Israel no matter what... and the voters can only punish the incumbent party for doing so.
65% of Democrats don't want to finance Israel. Two thirds of their own party, that's massive!
Voter turnout will continue to fall; D and R parties will continue to lose voters (now down to 30% registered voters each) and the Independents will continue to grow (now up to 40% of voters).
Why? Because our major parties ignore what their constituents actually want, and we can only punish one party every term.
The same people in this thread blaming voters for how Kamala Harris ran their campaign were the same ones insisting we had to run Biden as the incumbent, and calling you a bit or a school if you said they needed to be replaced.
We wouldn't have this outcome if the people who've made it their entire identity to blame voters had placed their frustrations with the party and demanded better, sooner, when it could have made a material difference.
The problem then being the electorate. The same group so many here want to absolve. You may not care about politics and want to 'check out' but it still cares about you and will still effect you even if you try to ignore it. In that vein elections will still happen and people you agree/disagree with will still be given power over you and your life. No matter how low the turn out a decision will be made with or without your input. Better to do what you can to give that input and make it the most useful it can be, before you get no input at all
If every election is a decision between the lesser of two evils and both evils become more evil over time then harm isn't actually reduced in the long run. This is why harm reduction is a failing long term electoral strategy.
It absolutely is the best option, IF these are the only options.
You don't get to constantly pretend that there's some obvious other solution without ever naming AND campaigning it.
Basically, this entire thread is filled to the brim with online leftists hating on every possible option, propose fiire bombing walmarts, and then NEVER ACTUALLY FIREBOMB A WALMART.
It requires immense amounts of privilege to campaign for waiting for a better option to magically manifest.
The very fact that the Trolley Problem exists as a thought experiment and there is still active discourse over the correct solution should tell you why people didn't all feel that they had a responsibility to vote for harm reduction. You can't expect an election that resembles a famously divisive philosophical thought experiment to turn out with everyone arriving at the same conclusion, and it's pointless to dwell on the fact that everyone didn't fall in line with what you think is obvious rather than adjusting to the reality and acting accordingly. That means getting candidates elected in primaries that aren't going to put us in the same trolley problem come time for the general.
That means getting candidates elected in primaries that aren’t going to put us in the same trolley problem
You can also put pressure on candidates mid-campaign to change posture.
I can tell you this, the Venn Diagram of the people itt blaming voters for the Democrats supporting a genocide in 2024, and the people who didn't want Biden to step down is basically a perfect circle. Its also the same circle which shielded Harris from any critiques on her support for genocide.
Perhaps. But that's not the world we live in. Demanding an electorate to suddenly change in a way it never has and start behaving like Homo economicus is only going to lead to further loses.
Honestly, people behaving like Homo economicus is how you get MAGA.
Think about it. Isn't Trump's pitch to voters ultimately an argument in rational self-interest? It's all "I'll make an in group and an out group. You'll be in the in group. I'll pull up the in group while pushing down the out group."
Racism and sexism are rational. Or at least they are rational from those that benefit from them. Think about a white male living in the Jim Crows South. Your life was made soooo much easier by racism and sexism. There were whole career fields where they were the only quarter of the population that were eligible for them. They were automatically in the top quarter of society, simply by their race and sex.
Anti-immigrant zealotry is rational. If you're a native-born US citizen working in the construction industry? Every legal or illegal immigrant being deported would cause your standard of living to soar. Economists would tell you that on net it will harm the economy. But if suddenly the pool of construction workers is cut in half, any US citizen who knows how to swing a hammer is now rolling in dough. That's the rational terror of fascism - every time another group in the "first they came for" poem is liquidated, someone ends up with their property, their jobs, their place in the social order, etc.
You NEED to have a respect for persons built into your ethical framework, or else you can end up justifying evils of all sorts, all in the name of the greater good. Hell, Dr. Mengele slept well every night, content in the knowledge that he was doing the greatest good for the greatest number.
Absolute nonsense, and the Palestinian Americans who voted 'undetermined' en masse during the Democratic primaries to send a message to Biden/Harris knew it too. The party made their choice between the people and an unpopular genocide. They chose genocide.
Hey guess what. The genocide got even worse under harris' opposition. How did that work out for all the genocide joe non-voters. How have palestinians benefitted under those protest votes/non-votes. Not to mention all the dead iranians that wouldnt be had harris won
What is more the "Democrat are bad because Palestine" was the opposition's framing. The argumeny was pretty unanimous that the policy on Palestine was going to cost the Democrats the election. The Democrats were bad because they knew full well they were going to choose to lose over changing that policy.
And that's just tunnel visioning at only the Israeli policy.
If genocide is bipartisan, then the less bad choice is whatever collapses the US the fastest. You wouldn't try to choose the leader of Nazi Germany based on who's going to run the holocaust most effectively
exactly this. Trump is the weakest, least capable adversary the resistance could ever dream to have. Were you expecting the empire to fall without violence?
Yes, I can see that it would be demoralizing, and it was demoralizing. The Schumer/Biden wing of the Democrats deserves to be cast into the bonfire of the vanities, they are completely useless. And while this might sound sarcastic, I truly believe they have ended their usefulness, if they ever had much.
But we are talking about human beings and their lives. It may not make much of a philosophical difference to compare different stances on this senseless slaughter, but it makes eminently practical sense to save the lives you can. An American Presidential election was not going to produce much of a genocide-stopping president in 2024, and I hope 2028 does better, but there were distinct differences in approach and stance and collaboration with Bibi.
Case in point, look up "Gaza floating pier," vs. "Trump Gaza resort." it's not about philosophical differences when you are starving.
the floating pier from day one was to have israeli guards at the end of it. It was a pretend situation where Israel could have instead just opened one gate into gaza instead for the exact same effect. Its a transparent and idiotic PR game and always was, and evidently you fell for it. Or you're pushing the same braindead propoganda narrative with a straight face. How was the pier any different than a gate on land?
If genocide is bipartisan, then the less bad choice is whatever collapses the US the fastest. You wouldn’t try to choose the leader of Nazi Germany based on who’s going to run the holocaust most effectively
Case in point, look up “Gaza floating pier,” vs. “Trump Gaza resort.” it’s not about philosophical differences when you are starving.
Fuck demoralizing. People made a conscious choice to screw the United States for ar least 3 more years...all because they were "demoralized". So how bad are they depressed right now? "I'M DEMORALIZED....SO I'LL DO SOMETHING THAT WILL MAKE IT EXPONENTIALLY WORSE." Here in the south, we call that "short bus thinking". Yeah, I called those people the terrible R word...maybe I'll take it back when they stop acting that way. And I don't give a fuck. They fucked up. They can own it or cry into their lattes. I REALLY don't give a fuck about their whining.
Your shitty system will always produce fascism as long as you don't hold the slightly less fascist party accountable. Last election the dems threw immigrants and palestinians under the bus in the name of 'appeasing the center' next election it will be trans people that will lose all political support and some time afterwards the dems will fold on womens rights in their stupid attempt to become the republicans lite edition.
Palestine is where Leopards Ate My Face meets Meanwhile On Grad. The two extremes have a common goal of destroying the country. MAGAts are shocked that Republicans are getting us into another war in the Middle East and the country is going hell. Gradbots are so pissed off with the the Democrat's ("blue maga") lack of spine against Israel that they want to burn the country to the ground in vengeance.
Ironically, I use Blue MAGA to refer to people like those Grads. If they had hit 4chan before reading communist theory, they probably would've ended up on the other end of the spectrum.
Isn't that just Dixiecrats/Dixie Dems then? AKA former Confederates.
I use it because of the extremism of the MAGA crowd, not the conservatism. Not like Horseshoe Theory, but that extremists on the leftist side could have fallen down the MAGA rabbit hole instead under different life circumstances, and that they can show similar behaviors in "purity test" attitudes, etc. Not that they're terrorists like the MAGA crowd, but that they should probably log off and touch grass once and a while.
Not something to be used wildly, but towards those who show 4chan-like behavior.
Making logical points weighing up two distinct yet similar stances on genocide is only going to suppress voter turnout.
It's the same as any other US election. We always have two shit sandwich options forced by the parties. There's always some absolutely fucked position they're both going to work towards and it is just a factor of which is less bad.
There have been other genocides the US has supported for decades elsewhere that go one gave a fuck about. The issues in Gaza aren't new, they're just more visible right now because of Israeli lobbying, one of the most powerful lobbying groups in the US.
We always have two shit sandwich options forced by the parties.
That stopped working in 2016. Biden only won because he lied and said he wanted to do a bunch of stuff the left wanted. Harris was a return to "we're shitty, we love it, fuck you" politics.
Imagine having to, because the most self-righteous, selfish people that possibly exist, opted to take "absolutr worst" over "bad"... and are still justifying it. Still lording thier moral superiority over the rest of us. Still incapable of grasping that thier self satisfaction came at a tangible cost to humans lives.
A big part of maturity, perhaps all of it, is recognizing that sometimes, you do need to degrade yourselves for others. Maybe not even to make things good for them, even just less bad.
Does it make me feel good to boil this down to an analogy like I'm talking to a 2 year old? No. It's degrading to say. I expect it's degrading to hear. But some people still don't get it.
Imagine having to, because the most self-righteous, selfish people that possibly exist, opted to take “absolutr worst” over “bad”… and are still justifying it.
I voted for harris.
You think genocide is as wholesome as lemonade.
A big part of maturity, perhaps all of it, is recognizing that sometimes, you do need to degrade yourselves for others.
You've never had to. You got your refreshing cold glass of country time genocide.
Yeah buddy I wasn't saying not actively working against it was helping it. I meant literally helping it. That Administration was actively arming the Israelis and aiding in the genocide. Super weird that you didn't know that.
Ok then tell me this, did Bibi like Biden? Did he want Biden to win? Did he think Biden let him do all he wanted? What did Biden say about Bibi in return?
Then you can look at things like Republicans voting to force continued sales of weapons
Tell me what Biden could've done that wouldn't amount to starting a war?
You're such a ghoul, actively helping people like Musk and Miller and ensuring Trump won't put up obstacles for Israel murdering people in Lebanon and Iran. Because it's more important to you that people get martyred against their will for your personal ideological purity. You knew the genocide would get worse if Trump won and you decided that would be better
Its illegal to send weapons or money to a country that is committing genocide. Biden could have simply said he cannot legally support Israel in any way and then just not. Instead Biden chose to lie for Israel aboiut 40 beheaded babies and provide unlimited diplomatic support, going so far as to bomb Yemen for resisting.
Democratic leadership knew this would decrease turnout, they prioritized unlimited support for Israel over winning the election.
Pretty trivially easy question.
Biden could have done a lot of things -- vetoed funding and stopped running interference for Israel in the UN. And he could have called it a genocide and illegal on the world stage. Biden refused to call it a genocide. He could have called for an international force to stop the killing. He also flew recon missions for the Israelis with US drones over Gaza didnt he.
And "starting a war"? with who, Israel? Are you stupid? That war would last 5 minutes. Biden took massive amounts of money from AIPAC his entire career, and called himself a zionist all the time. Your pretending he had no choice and was simply a victim of circumstance is pure lies. He was massively bribed. A corrupt peice of shit genocide supporter. He would absolutely lose his case and be imprisoned if the US had done the right thing and signed onto the ICC. He belongs in an orange jumpsuit, sharing a cell with trump.
Answer the fucking core of their point, instead going on random tangents. How the fuck is Trump better for the palestinians you supposedly care about than the Democrats? How did NOT having a spineless democrat in office help them? What did all you moral purists do in those 4-ish hours once every 4 years where you didn't vote? How many walmarts have been fire bombed?
I fucking voted. For harris. Genocidal shit like you loves to make the assumption that anyone who doesn't love genocide and nothing else like you do must be a trumper or a nonvoter.
Or you don't care how anyone voted because you got your only policy either way, and just can't stand it when anyone has a problem with genocide.
Yes. Because what so many folks can't seem to get is that different people are different. And they have different ethics.
This is literally the entire point of the trolley problem. Yes, you can stick your fingers in your ears and say, "always pull the lever for the track with fewer people on it." But that's just not how ethics works. Utilitarian ethics is one way to live life, but utilitarians have this incredibly annoying habit of assuming that theirs is the only valid ethical system, and that you're a complete moron if you follow any other school of thought.
You're demonstrating a utilitarian sense of ethics. One who follows a respect-for-persons belief system would say that the ends don't justify the means. That it's not fine to pull the trolley lever, even if that would result in a net saving of lives. That it's fine to vote to hold people accountable, even if that will objectively result in net material harm. It's not always about the greatest good for the greatest number. Otherwise, for example, we would never put any research dollars into studying cures for rare diseases. Those dollars could always objectively do more good elsewhere.
Hell, even our criminal laws don't follow a utilitarian sense of ethics. You can't legally get out of consequences from killing someone by saying, "this on net saved lives." Even if you can objectively prove it, you're not legally allowed to kill people. It doesn't matter if your murder on net saves lives, you're still a murderer. If a gang kidnaps your two children and tells you, "you must go kill this other one person if you want them to live." If you do that, if you go and kill that stranger to save your own kids? You will be charged and convicted of murder. You're not allowed to kill one innocent person to save two innocent people.
Many people voted against or refused to vote for Kamala because they were trying to punish her and the Democratic Party. Voting is the only way we have of holding politicians and parties accountable. Millions of voters saw the horrific haughtiness and barbarity of how the Democrats acted around Gaza, and they wanted to punish them for it. It was about holding them accountable. It was about justice. Many voted against Kamala to punish her for supporting genocide. And if the likely thing came to pass, if Trump supported genocide as well? Well those voters would vote against him for the same reason. They vote to hold people accountable for past actions, not to speculate on future ones. Maybe not how you vote, but again, people are different and can use whatever ethical system they want in choosing their vote.
Again, you can argue greatest good for greatest number, but that isn't the only system of ethics out there, and it's not even the system that defines the foundation of our legal codes.
You’re demonstrating a utilitarian sense of ethics.
And even more specifically, act utilitarian ethics. This incredibly narrow focus on the immediate effects of actions on the individual level which they treat as the only possible way of looking at things with absolutely zero examination.
I'd describe myself as a rule utilitarian, and from that perspective, the rule of "Don't support genocide, period" has a much stronger track record historically than, "Don't support genocide, unless you have a really good reason."
There is not one single time in all of human history that a stubborn refusal to support genocide has produced undesirable results. There are countless cases of people committing genocide because they see it as a "lesser evil" or "the only viable option." "If we don't kill them, they'll kill us, so we have no choice, this is the lesser evil." But not only are liberals utterly ignorant about moral philosophy, they're also ignorant about history, or they refuse to learn from it.
Modern American liberals are the ideological inheritors of the people who took the more "progressive" approach to indigenous people of subjugating and forcibly assimilating them, killing any who resisted, as opposed to the people who simply wanted to exterminate them all (who now live on through republicans). It's no wonder that they struggle to understand any perspective more progressive than "humane" genocide.
But this pretends that "not voting" is somehow a morally neutral inaction. It is a choice, the choice to support genocide EVEN HARDER.
This has very little to do with utilitarianism or deontology, and everything with retaining a feeling of moral superiority without having to actually do stuff.
You want a deontological take? Start bombing bridges or other infrastructure. Stop paying taxes, go to jail. Do literally anything that doesn't amount to "not doing stuff makes me better, akshually".
But this pretends that “not voting” is somehow a morally neutral inaction. It is a choice, the choice to support genocide EVEN HARDER.
I voted third party. Voting for someone who opposes genocide is not "supporting genocide eVeN hArDeR" than voting for someone who supports genocide.
This has very little to do with utilitarianism or deontology, and everything with retaining a feeling of moral superiority without having to actually do stuff.
I could just as easily say that your decision to vote for a genocidaire is just about retaining a feeling of moral superiority without having to do stuff. The difference is that I subscribe to a moral framework that says genocide is bad.
You want a deontological take? Start bombing bridges or other infrastructure. Stop paying taxes, go to jail.
The philosophy understander has logged on.
I'm not even a deontologist, dumbass. I literally just said that. Not that "bombing bridges" is remotely a "deontological take" to begin with.
The thing that really bugs me about y'all isn't just the fact that you're so ignorant, it's that you're so confident in your ignorance. You drop into intelligent conversations to not only spew a bunch of unexamined nonsense, but to tell everyone else how stupid and bad they are for not accepting your nonsense. It's like talking to a MAGA person tuned down like 10%.
I mean, Trump at this time did say that he was going to put American boots on the ground in Gaza and pave it over to put up a luxury beach resort, so I wouldn't say that they're literally the same on this, but it's a measure between actively supporting genocide and actively supporting and taking part in said genocide through direct military action.
Both parties love Israeli money, one just also happens to be run by a man who would love to wipe non-white ethnicities off the planet and build more towers to his inflated ego where they once lived.
American boots on the ground in Gaza and pave it over to put up a luxury beach resort,
Don't see much difference apart from the jersey being worn by the settlers murderers and raiders, personally. The policy is ultimately the same.
run by a man who would love to wipe non-white ethnicities off the planet and build more towers to his inflated ego where they once lived.
And I'm sure Joe 'Fund the Police' Biden and his sidekick Harris are super concerned about non-white ethnicities. His enthusiasm for keeping the WMD's flowing mid-genocide and mid-famine really sells me on his supposed empathy for them too.
This isn't a zero sum game and this isn't about defending a president who can at best be said to have kept the ship afloat and recovered some of the economic damage caused by Trump's COVID response, nor the shitty option B the Dems forced on us without a primary. All of the above can be terrible. That's always an option.
You see one jersey or the other, I saw two jerseys with twice the players on the horizon. The policy is the same now, but in 2024 during the election? When the guy who idolizes war mongers like Putin and who used to read Hitler's speeches before bed (according to the biography of an ex-wife), and who had previously said about the Middle East that he wanted to "nuke the sand into glass" said that he wanted to invade Gaza and put a carrier just off the coast, I fully believed that the strip would be gone and the people who lived there a footnote in the history books written by Israel and the US by now.
Both suck. Both support genocide. But one was talking about accelerating it by an order of magnitude that didn't leave nukes off the table. If they hadn't replaced the big red button in the Oval Office with one that orders a diet coke, he would've slammed it the first chance he got.
You're happy that the genocidal afrikaaner Musk got to kill hundreds of thousands, you're happy Netanyahu expanded into Lebanon, you're happy Trump got to give Netanyahu a fake ceasefire under which killings continue, you're happy innocent Iranians are dying, all so you can claim you're a good person for opposing Biden.
It's easier to pretend you're not responsible for assisting genocide than acknowledge it.
Trump's win made everything worse and you're happy that it is worse.
In terms of any actual metric, Biden was as bad if not worse than Trump in Gaza, but because BlueMAGA were engaging in mass genocide denial when it was their team doing it, they don’t realise.
The demorcrats would also have gone to war with Iran, if Israel wanted it. Notice how almost none of the majour dems have really condemned the war in Iran, even though it would have been massively electorally advantageous for them?
Maybe they would have done the war more carefully / competently, but they are slaves to the exact same forces of capital, that pushed Trump towards the war.
Notice how almost none of the majour dems have really condemned the war in Iran, even though it would have been massively electorally advantageous for them?
in the recent election for MJTs seat, the D candidate lost. One of the reasons given for WHY was because he actively opposed the war, the winning R was all Fir the war.
looking at that, when offered a chance voters sided with the pro war ideologue. They don't have to vote D next time but they could have this time.
Fundamentally a politician wants to win. As a voter, I get people being despondent when there's no real choice but here voters had a choice. Democrat politicians would be stupid not to pay attention.
Imagine being so disingenuous that you actually believe (or at least want others to think you do) that we just didn't know whether Trump would be worse than Harris on Palestine, Iran, and every other fucking thing possible for that matter. I never used to hold much creedence with the whole paid russian or chinese actors angle, even back in 2016. It is becoming more and more difficult to rationally explain how anybody actually living in the US could, with a straight face, make equivalency arguments between Trump and Clinton, Biden, or Harris. It does, however, seem like a perfectly rational act for foreign actors who just want to accelerate their replacement of the US as hegemon to take.
Doing nothing to stop it, cheering on Universities and police that beat and punished protesters, refusing to let Ruwa Romman or anyone else anti-genocide speak at their convention, etc.
Their policy was bad and they were assholes about it at every opportunity. It's honestly amazing she got as many votes as she did.
USians have been OK with crimes against humanity for decades. If Palestine had anything to do with Trump winning, then that's due to propaganda, not them organically giving a fuck.
But why are we still pretending Trump even won when his senile rotting brain admitted they rigged the elections?
In terms of any actual metric, Biden was as bad if not worse than Trump in Gaza, but because BlueMAGA were engaging in mass genocide denial when it was their team doing it, they don't realise
Who started a war with iran? Who went into another country and kidnapped their leader? Who is blowing up random boats in the carribean? Who bowed to north korean generals?
No biden os nowhere close to trump. Youre being willfully ignorant on this
Is there any possible way to disagree with you that you won't read as a Russian bot trying to undermine democracy?
It's such a thought-terminating cliche that anyone can use to dismiss any criticism. I could just as easily say that you're a DNC bot. Like, fuck critical thinking, I guess.
I can’t fathom how any of those people thought Trump would consider Palestine anything but a future golf course. It’s been annihilated as a country and a people under Trump.
Most of the genocide and leveling of Gaza happened under Biden. But yes it continued under trump. Israel owns both US political parties.
So I dont know why you say "under Trump" -- its the exact same thing under both Trump and Biden. We let Israel do whatever they want, whenever they want, however they want, to whoever they want, funded by us.
Seems you want to pretend Dems are better about it but I dont see how you can contrive any difference between 100% enablement and support.
In terms of Palestine? I don’t know how you yanked that interpretation out. If it doesn’t change with either party then the only reason to vote Trump is spite, followed by a leopard eating your faces.
In terms of everything else? Yes and no. I do know we would not have:
Further rollback of civil liberties of women
a tax plan (impending) intended to trap women in marriage
brown shirt army stalking people and performing street executions
war with Iran
gas prices that will continue to rise long after the war with Iran is done
A rollback on all solar and wind programs / projects
rollback of consumer protections re banks, credit cards, junk fees
halt on internet being made an essential utility
a tax plan that pushes billionaires toward becoming trillionaires
NIOSH gutted, good luck with work safety gear manufactured from here on out
Elections being gutted for midterms via the US postal service
Speech, now, you can’t even protest Israel without being arrested or booted.
Impending collapse of the dollar
Cuba
All those dead fishermen in South American waters
Further privacy erosion in favor of Google, META, Microsoft, etc
Disrespect and disenfranchising military vets, like Kelly and all the randomly expelled career generals in an attempt to make the military another brown shirt brigade
And I’m sick of listing this crap.
Arguably, 9 & 16 would probably still happen, but in slower subtler ways. The rest? Every spite vote or lack thereof made it happen.
I don’t like our two party system. But unless you have an actual solution that fixes it at the time of an election, then the spite play does indeed hurt all.
I've given up on changing republicans. We should either change the dems, or burn our entire government to the ground without much delay. Those are our options. Changing Dems means setting boundaries and sticking to them. And boundaries cant be only around during the primary. Dems either adhere to universal human rights for all or they lose in every way I can make them lose, thats my deal with them, they can take it or leave it-- I dont care if they -- or you like it. Its not asking for much. and I'm willing to burn the democratic party and our stupid governmental system to the ground to get it, just like the zionists and their creatures are willing to do.
You want to wave a stack of lesser causes and pretend they compare at all to genocide? stuff like:
halt on internet being made an essential utility
oh my. You weigh that list of comparatively trivial bullshit against genocide of hundreds of thousands of innocents, journalist, and doctors huh. Well I think they dont even begin to compare, and it doesnt speak well of you that you'd even try to compare them. Kind of disgusting and self centered. Oh no, your gas is more expensive? You poor dear. This is "killing" you, I can tell. You're basically being "genocided" by high gas prices and the internet not being considered a public utility arent you. Why cant you just stand up firmly for universal human dignity and human rights? Would that be so bad?
I think most republicans aren’t as locked into their beliefs as we have been made to believe, tbh. If they can change their opinions to match that of their leader, they have a fairly pliable belief system. I feel they are more likely to realign themselves for a leader that they see as a populist is the thing. So even a populist on the other side of the aisle would sway many of the Right’s current followers, since they’d be making promises for getting things done and giving them a proverbial backpat about it.
I think the wind is already blowing for a changed Democratic Party, it’s a wind that’s been blowing since Bernie really, but the old guard Baby Boomers have been in power for quite a while now. Demographics have been slowly changing so that the Baby Boomers don’t make up as much of the majority of voters anymore, so more progressive stances can take root.
Changing Dems is about focusing electing politicians that mirror the values you have more than anything. Promoting a different voting system that enables these more progressive voices would go a long ways towards getting them in office as well.
Functionally, it’s not possible to ‘start over’ so it’s smart to work within the space that we do have and make real change where it is possible to do so. Convincing people to change their stances is hard work, and the way power is split in a country as big as the US complicates things even further. Educating newer generations about why changes matters is important, and educating them about logical things they can do to build a better system, which does put human rights for all as top priority, should be a top focus.
Those people were too busy cranking their own holier-than-thou hogs to consider it. Which is why they’re confused (see OP) and retreating to their FSB-designed playbook.
::: spoiler Tap for spoiler
Nothing. Ever. Unless it’s something so generalized, so pie-in-the-sky that it’s positively painful to hear it espoused as a plan.
:::
I was fighting that battle right there alongside you, but yes the astroturfing was enormous. Sometimes I felt like I was the only sane person out there.
It helps to remember that there were hundreds of millions, potentially billions, of dollars going specifically to shilling for trump and putin and disparaging the democrats.
Because it means you at least tried to mitigate the harm. Most people who took that stance said that people shouldn't bother voting at all because voting for either was supporting genocide.
No, that only exists in your head because you are a crazed rabid party zombie. Normal human being progressives think genocide is bad. It’s really fucking weird that you don’t.
Ah, I see that when you are confronted with reality you just reject it so you can continue masturbating to how you’re the only person on earth who is smart.
'Wouldn't you have preferred the genocide with mock pearl clutching instead of glee'
No not really.
'Wouldn't you prefer a DNC and democratic establishment that believes it can win elections with genocidal conservative candidates that ignore the left wing of the party'
It sure seems like you’re setting up for some bullshit gotcha that’s really clever in your head. The sheer quantity of assumptions you have made about me for saying that I think genocide is bad is baffling.
I also tried to warn you genocidal fucks that she would lose if she kept supporting genocide. None of you wanted her to stop; you just wanted the forced silence of everyone who had a problem with genocide.
Or maybe we should demand politicians who aren't genocidal? I'm not a Russian bot, I just refuse to follow the same bullshit "vote blue no matter who" harm reduction narrative that just leads to infinitely more harm in the long run.
We'll still be skidding in 2028, and 2032, and 2036, and 2040, and so on. Picture yourself in 2044 making this same argument. Now we're arguing about Hitler (D) who wants to put trans people in prison, and Hitler (R) who wants to put trans people in death camps. Both candidates are willing to launch a nuclear weapon in behalf of Israel. The car is already skidding, it's too late to change things. If you don't vote for Hitler (D), then you're letting Hitler (R) win.
Flash back to 2026. "Vote blue no matter who" just means democrats don't have to appeal to leftists at all. In order to win, they just need to appeal to the right. Let's force them to appeal to the left instead.
"Don't vote until they learn how important we are" is how you join the third+ of the country that doesn't vote and is therefore ignored by politicians.
No. Voting in big elections is not the only action you take. This is a conflict with multiple fronts. You need to organize, talk to people, use every option.
Just abandoning the electoral front in this conflict is stupid
I've been warning people about what was coming as far back as 2010, when I was a teenager. I have been telling people that "vote blue no matter who" would lead here, and people just derided me, called me a troll, I have been told endlessly that I'm making a slippery slope argument.
When Bernie's would-be victory was transmuted into Hillary's defeat, that should have been a wake-up call for you. Your politicians are playing you like a fiddle. They would rather have fascism than even the mildest social democracy.
History has vindicated leftists, again and again and again and again. Liberals, centrists, democrats, they are either in denial, or they're fully onboard with fascism.
Please, for once, listen to us. You need to help us stop this shit. We can't just keep going on voting for the lesser evil forever.
Organize, protest and elect. Emphasis on organize and protest.
Get as involved as you can with activist efforts locally.
Organize, network, focus on building solidarity. Join or form a union. Join the IWW.
Vote at primaries and elections for the best candidate, even if you doubt they can win.
Don't punch down.
Don't punch left.
Educate yourself, politically.
Push for voting reform and for anything that breaks the two-party system.
I think the question is, what is the best way to get politicians who aren't genocidal. Which is a specific case of the question of how you get change implemented.
I have seen people advocate for incremental change, and I have seen people advocate for revolution. The problem with incrementalism is that it looks like too little, and it's uncertain in direction and can be reversed. The problem with revolutionism is that absolutely nothing happens until a cataclysmic change occurs, and then it's absolutely not clear that the change is what people wanted in the first place.
Conservatives have achieved the monumental changes they wanted over the course of five decades. I find their goals repulsive, their methods disgusting, and their personalities (people in power) revolting. But I begrudgingly admit that their approach worked. They got absolutely everything they ever wanted, and their problem right now is that they, too, can't live in the world they decidedly thought they wanted.
I don't think people are saying you personally are a bot, but you're falling for narratives pushed by bots. By allowing republicans to win this past election, infinitely more harm has been caused than even most people's worst predictions and absolutely zero harm has been prevented. USAID is gone which will lead to millions of deaths abroad, crackpots like RFK Jr have been legitimized causing deaths to diseases which were effectively eliminated, disaster relief is being denied to blue states, and of course Israel has more freedom than ever before to do whatever they want to the Palestinian people.
Has any harm been reduced by allowing the republican party to have power? Can you acknowledge the harm that has already been caused by allowing them to have power?
Well the reality isn't much better. They put a candidate in that couldn't beat anyone in the primaries, but was added because Biden wanted to run again.
It’s a failure of our history classes. People thought the US was better than that but they never learned we really aren’t and light genocide and pretending to feel bad about it is the best we can do.
You refuted the argument by providing all the evidence against it, I presume. You listed all the instances where leading Democrats supported Palestinians in the face of aggression, which are very numerous.
I mean, since that would be the way to remove any doubt
Yeah. I didn't handle that well myself. But in all likelihood people were not going to change their minds anyway. It's like trying to speak English to a duck.
Both can be true. How TF we have 4 years to produce a candidate against trump, and the best we got was walking corpse Biden 2.0 and then Kamala "I'm speaking while your homeland is genocided" Harris.
I hate that guy, but hate cannot make Me act against My own interests. Well it can a little bit, especially in fast moving situations. But it can't do it with big decisions like My vote.
He will be more against queer people than whoever the Republicans put forth? Really?
If candidate A wants you to hide your queerness and use the wrong bathroom, and candidate B wants to force you to be straight or go to jail or a conversion camp, are you really going to throw your hands up in the air and say it's not worth voting?
Voting for someone does not mean you support everything they stand for. It just means you think they are the best option of what has been laid before you.
My actions and his actions are two very different things. If he primaries, I may tell people to vote for him against the R, having told people to vote against him in the primaries. In both cases I would be acting in alignment with My interests, for they are two very different choices. I will hope for the best and plan for the worst.
Still headed toward fascism and abuse ... just a bit slower.
We're in a car heading toward a cliff, and we have a choice of whether to hit the gas or the brakes. But the brakes are really shitty and can only slow us down slightly -- no way they'll stop in time.
It's not even that. EVERYONE is harmed by fascists. Or, if you'd like to rephrase it this way: EVERYONE is harmed much more by fascists. Either way, in the general, vote blue. In the primaries, vote for the best option. And if you can run for office, run for office.
Labour UK has been kind of astounding to watch. They started strong then somewhere around six months in it started to get wonky. And now it’s like some sort of Labourexit. Bizarre. But I guess that's why the Greens are growing.
Biden did a lot of great things during his time as president and it’s a testament to the failing american education system and the right-wing propaganda machine how people couldn’t see it.
It's also a testament to how bad the Biden administration failed at messaging.
Biden's BBB and infrastructure spending was some of the best legislature of our lifetimes(yes BBB was watered down, corrupted, and did not meet the moment, but the bar is in hell).
Instead of doing full-court media blitz to advertise this victory to voters, they said almost nothing. Too afraid that Biden would reveal his dementia to the public, I guess. Fewest press conferences in modern presidential history, by far.
It's not going to be JD. Mark my words, save my comment, it's going to be Tucker Carlson. And if that happens and Dems haven't changed their tune we are absolutely fucked.
If that happens and leftists are still their own biggest enemies with their pursuit of an ideologically pure candidate that doesn’t exist we’ll be fucked.
I don't think most leftists are looking for an ideologically pure candidate, they're looking for someone who will actually represent the people. The Israel issue is a great example of this disconnect; amongst Dem voters 90% are against supporting Israel, and yet there's only a handful of Democrat politicians who have are agaimst sending Israel military aid. It's really not a high bar for candidates to clear, and yet establishment Dems just keep SPRINTING to the right.
Leftists arent their own enemies, their enemies are neoliberals.
Newsom is not left wing just because his interns make fun of Trump on twitter. Some people don't want their options to be "fascist" or "neoliberal" and shills like you critizise them more than they do with the literal nazis keeping this system in place
I don't think people arguing against you get newsom he fundamentally has no real beliefs and will just do things to get more power. He throws the dem base under the bus at every opportunity and is somehow more pro billionaire that the average corp dem.
Yeah, I would rather have pritsker, at least he seems to have a backbone among the Democrat governors. I also think having conservative Democrats brings us further right so more evil Republicans can get in power.
If Gavin Newsom is the dem candidate I will not be able to stomach voting for him, im a trans person and I refuse to vote for someone who would actively backstab me
This is what will keep happening if the Dems election strategy remains "if you don't vote for us you get that asshole". And use them as an excuse not to do anything.
Voting Democrat in the general election is the choice with (edited in: the) least horrible consequences
and
Voting Democrat in the general election isn't nearly enough to stop the ratchet-effecting into fascism, and a stand-for-nothing placeholder centrist Democrat president in 2028 will probably just lead to Trump-3/Vance/someone similarly horrible in 2032
are unfortunately both true.
Also, non-MAGA Americans - (EDIT: liberals, not the party leaders) and leftists alike - need better people skills. With infighting like this, Republicans hardly even need to lift a finger.
This person is an idiot. The american public gave up on their one chance to influence the outcome of the presidency and fucked it up for everyone beyond comprehension, and are now still trying to push the blame on the establishment. Fuck every one of the sitouts and republican voters. You enabled the orange buffoon and couldnt see the threat he represented. Sometimes, when life gives you a choice between lemons and your way of life being destroyed in a childish tantrum, you swallow the fucking lemon.
Punishing a politician by electing one who is even worse according your own standards. In my country, this is called "voting for the fox because the rooster is crowing out of tune".
IMO it doesn't matter if you do a 3rd party protest vote if you're not in a swing state. The system is fundamentally broken by design
There seems to be a ton of finger pointing from liberals (mostly outside of leemy). Trump won on promises to gullible fools on literally making cost of living cheaper (this includes fascist and non fascist talking points)
The dems lost on not conveying their solutions to cost of living well and of course not taking a stand against the faction of war and genocide that many of them are actively working for or with.
A lot of establishment dems are just mad it's not their brand of authoritarianism
That this has over 700 upvotes on lemmy.world says everything you need to know about lemmy.world.
You see it turns out you can have more than 1 thought in your head at once. Trump can be a fascist who materially supports a genocide and the democrat party can also be materially supporting a genocide. Look at how little they've done to stop the Iran war. Why do you think that is?
X as a platform is right wing propaganda. This would specifically attempt to undermine the progressive in the left-centers eyes, exacerbating division.
this garbage again. now it’s voter fault that they forced a superpac shill who told the voters to stfu while bombing kids in refugee camp and let megacorps fck working class. this time they didn’t even bothered with a sham primary like hillary or biden.
all mainstream dems other than aoc, warren and bernie are still spitting on its base. has harris or dem leadership done one thing to change their stance or support its people after election ?
keep voting lesser evil and you will keep getting two faced snakes with better propaganda.
Always adorable when Dems lose an election and then pretend to be against the very thing they just spent the last four years supporting enthusiastically even though they had the power to stop it, even amidst the deliberate starvation of children.
If people are unhappy they vote for the party not in power. Social media is much better at making us all unhappy than happy. I don’t think we will see a 2 term president for a while.
The democrats don't mind a republican president they are part of the same ecosystem of power, if you don't understand this it makes sense why you'd ask these questions
I'd be very curious to see how many of you vote for someone who killed your entire family. Hey, you may even have the opportunity to by the time Trump dies and federal Dems expect you to pretend that they did anything to stop this.
Edit: I'm gonna leave this here in case any of you bloodthirsty libs think that you actually care about anyone's wellbeing. Imagine hearing news every week -- maybe even every day -- of your cousins dying, your siblings, your parents, your neighbours, people who you spoke to once and remember fondly, everything about your home destroyed in the most brutal and violent way imaginable; some of them died slowly, trapped under rubble for days. Then, you can't stomach to support or even tolerate the people who haven't even stopped bombing and sniping and gassing your family, and some fucking privileged assholes in the metropole blame you when their white supremacist state elects one of two white supremacists. Almost inhuman levels of dissonance.
Look at this and say why you think these people don't deserve to hate you and the system you benefit from.
the republicans need punishment more than any party.
also the democrats don't even want to win so forcing them to serve a term and actually have a fucking job is the greatest punishment you could ever inflict upon them.
I love how disenchanted voters complain about a 2 party system but fail to realize that in a democracy changing that is on them. It takes time, money, and lots hard work to build a viable 3rd alternative. Dems and GOP have zero incentive to help that process.
So...she hoped Harris would lose...but not really? Can someone please inform this bitch thst she's part of the problem? I would, but I despise X....unless I find a way to grift the dumb fuckers that use it.
The fall of democracies is filled with infighting between the people who oppose the regime.
Americans are idiots and colonial terrorists so this is extra bad. They got played so obviously by the people they are now helping by shitting on the opposition
I'd understand or join with the lefty never-voting-anti-capitalist tankies if they had a plan, or a strategy, or a goal, or a coalition they were building towards. But there is nothing. No movement, no goals, no aims to achieve political power. It's all virtue signaling. We have people from Syria and Palestine literally begging the lefties to cease their rhetoric because it's causing more harm than good. But the reality is lefties aren't interested in solutions. They want to feel good about their online social media activism and watch Hassan Piker stream from a luxury hotel in Cuba while 90% of the country goes without electricity. That is the peak american socialist movement.
What's happened is the left has drifted far enough that a fair amount of the progressives are no longer happy with their decisions.
There are a surprising number of people out there who think that not voting at all and them losing will send them a message and they're going to change. They will not.
They will once again say, well, he fucked up the country bad enough we can put whoever fits our needs the best here. People will certainly vote against the right now...
The problem with Biden's administration, it was filled with dual US-Israeli citizens, who support the Likud Party. She can piss off, because the Israelis are land grabbing to the north, east and west and the MAGA fucks started a war they cannot end. Wait until the Venezuelans realize their getting shafted and revolt.
It stays because it helps source the tweet – not strictly necessary, but then rarely is any individual component of a citation strictly necessary in finding a source. Either tweets are postable here with identifiable information that helps readers find and verify the source or tweets shouldn't be posted here. I'd argue the former (if "primary source" posts to e.g. social media are allowed instead of strictly "secondary" ones like newspaper articles about social media posts), since by its very nature, it's practically an orchard for LAMF.
Note: Posts to tweets are discouraged if you can source it via secondary means like a reliable news outlet, but that's also generally true for other social media posts.
rarely is any individual component of a citation strictly necessary in finding a source.
I could find out this is from x.com by searching its text, by searching its user handle, by seeing the 'x.com' at the bottom, by recognizing the UI, by knowing about the "Readers add context" functionality, etc.
If we're cool with discussing the contents of a neo-Nazi website, then we're cool with directly attributing the neo-Nazi website as the source of those contents.
OP, per Rule 4, for accessibility reasons, an image of text must either have alt text or a transcript in the post body.
Edit: Counting this as a warning for future posts, OP, but since you might not be here to address this, a transcript in a comment as a lesser substitute:
I remember arguing for days, in 2024, that the whole "Democrats are bad because Palestine" thing was clearly a psyop by Russian bots trying to mess with the election. I really need to improve my persuasion skills. Like by a lot.
Pretty sure Democrats doing nothing to stop the genocide in gaza was a factor to their detriment in the election, bots aside
Even knowing that Trump was going to actively help Bibi? That's the thing I didn't understand: sure, the Democrats were not doing much to stop the slaughter, but from the previous Trump administration we knew Trump was going to actively help.
Ok, but you see how massively demoralizing this conversation is, right?
Making logical points weighing up two distinct yet similar stances on genocide is only going to suppress voter turnout.
It shouldn't. It's basic harm reduction.
One side probably won't stop it, but they're on our side so there's a sliver of a cintilla of a chance we could pressure them into it.
The other side absolutely would not, vocally stated he would help accelerate it, and would laugh in our faces and do even more to accelerate it for no other reason than it made us mad.
The choice should have been obvious, even if I and everyone else would have preferred better options.
See people aren't exclusively machines.
I know people who felt that both sides at least tacitly supporting the genocide was so depressing that for their mental health they basically checked out of politics.
No, that response isn't helpful, but it's a very real thing that happens to real people. They needed a candidate that cared that people's lives were ending across the sea, and neither side offered that.
That hurt Kamala's chances in a very real way, and might even be the deciding factor for Trump's second term.
While you and I can look at this and go "Wow, that's not logical, she's way better than Trump", the Democratic campaign should have had political scientists and psychologists that knew about this well-documented phenomenon. I imagine they did, and ignored it, because siding against Israel would've cost money.
So while it's true that the choice was still objectively obvious, it's also completely true that the Democratic campaign absolutely mishandled it, because this isn't some new phenomenon, and group human psychology isn't unpredictable. It's also not the fault of those who didn't vote because of that.
D and R parties both need independent voters to win any election. For example, even if every D voted for a D, they would lose without independents voting for them in significant numbers. This has been a political fact for many years.
So... why did the Harris campaign target REPUBLICAN voters (instead of Ds and independents)? They wasted a lot of vital time on that ("He doesn't need to know who you voted for" etc), and they knew that they would lose if they did so.
She knew it too, Harris isn't stupid. She took a knee.
I'm not fully convinced the conspiracy is that deep, but also if hard evidence came out saying so, I wouldn't be surprised.
yep, and the Dem leadership still support israel no matter what they do. They learned nothing and will try to set up the same voter hostage situation in every vote from now on.
Right? Makes that other comment under this seem more valid.
But we've got a bunch of supposed leftists in this very thread talking about how they wouldn't vote for these types of democrats. These are people that obsensibly are self aware enough not to let their supposedly so well informed morality be determined by feeling bummed out about their options.
I don't expect miracles from the average, barely informed voter. I do fucking expect supposed informed leftists to not actively campaign against voting. I expect them to fucking understand this "obvious" situation. THAT is my main sticking point.
Yes, and white people get depressed about racism, so they just ignore what bums them out. Insane that a defense of online leftists amounts to "they just such smol bean, they too bummed for voting sad face".
At the very least maybe the Dem party should have been smart enough lie publically that they would censor Israel and reevaluate US support of Israel (even if they wouldn't actually follow through). It's almost like losing is preferable to risking any AIPAC $.
to do that in a democracy is beyond shameful.
You don't have to be invested at the grass roots or debating magats but you can still turn up at a polling station on election day, or do a fucking postal vote
Just because humans are vulnerable to certain psychological effects, doesn't mean it's not the fault of those who were effected by them. Humans are also vulnerable to stress eating. That doesn't remove the blame from fat asses with no self-control.
And this person absolutely should have better self-control, whoever the fuck, sorry, TF she is.
And some candidates should be able to take a stand against genocide. Too bad you got your way and none were on the ballot.
We don't live in a world of "should", in the real world of course it is demoralizing and affects the vote turnout.
We all know the US government will back Israel no matter what... and the voters can only punish the incumbent party for doing so.
65% of Democrats don't want to finance Israel. Two thirds of their own party, that's massive!
Voter turnout will continue to fall; D and R parties will continue to lose voters (now down to 30% registered voters each) and the Independents will continue to grow (now up to 40% of voters).
Why? Because our major parties ignore what their constituents actually want, and we can only punish one party every term.
It shouldn't be that way, but it is.
The same people in this thread blaming voters for how Kamala Harris ran their campaign were the same ones insisting we had to run Biden as the incumbent, and calling you a bit or a school if you said they needed to be replaced.
We wouldn't have this outcome if the people who've made it their entire identity to blame voters had placed their frustrations with the party and demanded better, sooner, when it could have made a material difference.
The problem then being the electorate. The same group so many here want to absolve. You may not care about politics and want to 'check out' but it still cares about you and will still effect you even if you try to ignore it. In that vein elections will still happen and people you agree/disagree with will still be given power over you and your life. No matter how low the turn out a decision will be made with or without your input. Better to do what you can to give that input and make it the most useful it can be, before you get no input at all
Yeah, they should shut up and love genocide like you do.
If every election is a decision between the lesser of two evils and both evils become more evil over time then harm isn't actually reduced in the long run. This is why harm reduction is a failing long term electoral strategy.
People preaching harm reduction whose candidates only ever increase harm over the last offering know this. They're arguing in bad faith.
It absolutely is the best option, IF these are the only options. You don't get to constantly pretend that there's some obvious other solution without ever naming AND campaigning it. Basically, this entire thread is filled to the brim with online leftists hating on every possible option, propose fiire bombing walmarts, and then NEVER ACTUALLY FIREBOMB A WALMART.
It requires immense amounts of privilege to campaign for waiting for a better option to magically manifest.
Imagine there's an election with two candidates.
Both candidates have expressed that they will torture and kill you, specifically, r1veRRR.
One candidate will torture and kill you using environmentally friendly methods, the other will do so using fossil fuels.
Would you support the environmentalist candidate? Would you vote for them? Would you campaign for them?
And you're so happy that there were no other options.
The very fact that the Trolley Problem exists as a thought experiment and there is still active discourse over the correct solution should tell you why people didn't all feel that they had a responsibility to vote for harm reduction. You can't expect an election that resembles a famously divisive philosophical thought experiment to turn out with everyone arriving at the same conclusion, and it's pointless to dwell on the fact that everyone didn't fall in line with what you think is obvious rather than adjusting to the reality and acting accordingly. That means getting candidates elected in primaries that aren't going to put us in the same trolley problem come time for the general.
You can also put pressure on candidates mid-campaign to change posture.
I can tell you this, the Venn Diagram of the people itt blaming voters for the Democrats supporting a genocide in 2024, and the people who didn't want Biden to step down is basically a perfect circle. Its also the same circle which shielded Harris from any critiques on her support for genocide.
Perhaps. But that's not the world we live in. Demanding an electorate to suddenly change in a way it never has and start behaving like Homo economicus is only going to lead to further loses.
Honestly, people behaving like Homo economicus is how you get MAGA.
Think about it. Isn't Trump's pitch to voters ultimately an argument in rational self-interest? It's all "I'll make an in group and an out group. You'll be in the in group. I'll pull up the in group while pushing down the out group."
Racism and sexism are rational. Or at least they are rational from those that benefit from them. Think about a white male living in the Jim Crows South. Your life was made soooo much easier by racism and sexism. There were whole career fields where they were the only quarter of the population that were eligible for them. They were automatically in the top quarter of society, simply by their race and sex.
Anti-immigrant zealotry is rational. If you're a native-born US citizen working in the construction industry? Every legal or illegal immigrant being deported would cause your standard of living to soar. Economists would tell you that on net it will harm the economy. But if suddenly the pool of construction workers is cut in half, any US citizen who knows how to swing a hammer is now rolling in dough. That's the rational terror of fascism - every time another group in the "first they came for" poem is liquidated, someone ends up with their property, their jobs, their place in the social order, etc.
You NEED to have a respect for persons built into your ethical framework, or else you can end up justifying evils of all sorts, all in the name of the greater good. Hell, Dr. Mengele slept well every night, content in the knowledge that he was doing the greatest good for the greatest number.
Nonsense.
Absolute nonsense, and the Palestinian Americans who voted 'undetermined' en masse during the Democratic primaries to send a message to Biden/Harris knew it too. The party made their choice between the people and an unpopular genocide. They chose genocide.
Hey guess what. The genocide got even worse under harris' opposition. How did that work out for all the genocide joe non-voters. How have palestinians benefitted under those protest votes/non-votes. Not to mention all the dead iranians that wouldnt be had harris won
Congratulations on the furtherance of your only goal.
That's true.
It always does, because both ruling parties exist in service to Israel. And therefore, they have no impetus to do anything but escalate.
Had she been elected we'd be in exactly the same position.
The side of genocide, oligarchy and fascism?
What is more the "Democrat are bad because Palestine" was the opposition's framing. The argumeny was pretty unanimous that the policy on Palestine was going to cost the Democrats the election. The Democrats were bad because they knew full well they were going to choose to lose over changing that policy.
And that's just tunnel visioning at only the Israeli policy.
Yeah, the choice was bad or worse, and people chose worse. Life sucks sometimes, they need to grow up.
If genocide is bipartisan, then the less bad choice is whatever collapses the US the fastest. You wouldn't try to choose the leader of Nazi Germany based on who's going to run the holocaust most effectively
But you can’t deny a progressive Führer wouldn’t be better for us.
Sure the Jews, gays, and other undesirables may suffer but the far-right Führer made it bad for us as well and that’s unacceptable.
exactly this. Trump is the weakest, least capable adversary the resistance could ever dream to have. Were you expecting the empire to fall without violence?
I don't want to cut off this gangrene foot because it will be unpleasant. Let's just wait it out and see what what happens.
This was never a difficult decision and the ones that thought it was are fundamentally simple people.
Yes, I can see that it would be demoralizing, and it was demoralizing. The Schumer/Biden wing of the Democrats deserves to be cast into the bonfire of the vanities, they are completely useless. And while this might sound sarcastic, I truly believe they have ended their usefulness, if they ever had much.
But we are talking about human beings and their lives. It may not make much of a philosophical difference to compare different stances on this senseless slaughter, but it makes eminently practical sense to save the lives you can. An American Presidential election was not going to produce much of a genocide-stopping president in 2024, and I hope 2028 does better, but there were distinct differences in approach and stance and collaboration with Bibi.
Case in point, look up "Gaza floating pier," vs. "Trump Gaza resort." it's not about philosophical differences when you are starving.
The Gaza floating pier was used to do warcrimes, then dismantled.
As planned.
the floating pier from day one was to have israeli guards at the end of it. It was a pretend situation where Israel could have instead just opened one gate into gaza instead for the exact same effect. Its a transparent and idiotic PR game and always was, and evidently you fell for it. Or you're pushing the same braindead propoganda narrative with a straight face. How was the pier any different than a gate on land?
If genocide is bipartisan, then the less bad choice is whatever collapses the US the fastest. You wouldn’t try to choose the leader of Nazi Germany based on who’s going to run the holocaust most effectively
BlueMAGA is a parody of itself
Fuck demoralizing. People made a conscious choice to screw the United States for ar least 3 more years...all because they were "demoralized". So how bad are they depressed right now? "I'M DEMORALIZED....SO I'LL DO SOMETHING THAT WILL MAKE IT EXPONENTIALLY WORSE." Here in the south, we call that "short bus thinking". Yeah, I called those people the terrible R word...maybe I'll take it back when they stop acting that way. And I don't give a fuck. They fucked up. They can own it or cry into their lattes. I REALLY don't give a fuck about their whining.
Your shitty system will always produce fascism as long as you don't hold the slightly less fascist party accountable. Last election the dems threw immigrants and palestinians under the bus in the name of 'appeasing the center' next election it will be trans people that will lose all political support and some time afterwards the dems will fold on womens rights in their stupid attempt to become the republicans lite edition.
Uhh trans people lost support last election. Or were you not paying attention to all the anti-trans legislation coming out.
I'm glad monsters like you are suffering
Palestine is where Leopards Ate My Face meets Meanwhile On Grad. The two extremes have a common goal of destroying the country. MAGAts are shocked that Republicans are getting us into another war in the Middle East and the country is going hell. Gradbots are so pissed off with the the Democrat's ("blue maga") lack of spine against Israel that they want to burn the country to the ground in vengeance.
If your memory can last more than seven seconds, burning America to the ground starts to seem pretty reasonable.
If opposing genocide is synonymous with "destroying the country" then the country deserves to be destroyed
Burning the US down would be doing the world a favor
Ironically, I use Blue MAGA to refer to people like those Grads. If they had hit 4chan before reading communist theory, they probably would've ended up on the other end of the spectrum.
Then you are using it wrong.
BlueMAGA is abwd/ Biden & Harris toe suckers.
Isn't that just Dixiecrats/Dixie Dems then? AKA former Confederates.
I use it because of the extremism of the MAGA crowd, not the conservatism. Not like Horseshoe Theory, but that extremists on the leftist side could have fallen down the MAGA rabbit hole instead under different life circumstances, and that they can show similar behaviors in "purity test" attitudes, etc. Not that they're terrorists like the MAGA crowd, but that they should probably log off and touch grass once and a while.
Not something to be used wildly, but towards those who show 4chan-like behavior.
It's the same as any other US election. We always have two shit sandwich options forced by the parties. There's always some absolutely fucked position they're both going to work towards and it is just a factor of which is less bad.
There have been other genocides the US has supported for decades elsewhere that go one gave a fuck about. The issues in Gaza aren't new, they're just more visible right now because of Israeli lobbying, one of the most powerful lobbying groups in the US.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_genocides
That stopped working in 2016. Biden only won because he lied and said he wanted to do a bunch of stuff the left wanted. Harris was a return to "we're shitty, we love it, fuck you" politics.
The US was doing it anyway before Trump2.0
My dad gave me $1 to seed a lemonade stand. Trump's dad gave him billions.
Our experiences are equivalent.
Imagine comparing a genocide to a lemonade stand.
Imagine having to, because the most self-righteous, selfish people that possibly exist, opted to take "absolutr worst" over "bad"... and are still justifying it. Still lording thier moral superiority over the rest of us. Still incapable of grasping that thier self satisfaction came at a tangible cost to humans lives.
A big part of maturity, perhaps all of it, is recognizing that sometimes, you do need to degrade yourselves for others. Maybe not even to make things good for them, even just less bad.
Does it make me feel good to boil this down to an analogy like I'm talking to a 2 year old? No. It's degrading to say. I expect it's degrading to hear. But some people still don't get it.
I voted for harris.
You think genocide is as wholesome as lemonade.
You've never had to. You got your refreshing cold glass of country time genocide.
Not doing much to stop it is a weird way of saying actively helping it.
I see you too are actively helping it then. It's your own words!
Yeah buddy I wasn't saying not actively working against it was helping it. I meant literally helping it. That Administration was actively arming the Israelis and aiding in the genocide. Super weird that you didn't know that.
Ok then tell me this, did Bibi like Biden? Did he want Biden to win? Did he think Biden let him do all he wanted? What did Biden say about Bibi in return?
Then you can look at things like Republicans voting to force continued sales of weapons
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/16/us/politics/house-bill-reverse-israel-arms-pause.html
Meanwhile; https://thehill.com/policy/defense/5429072-sanders-resolution-fails-israel-military/
Tell me what Biden could've done that wouldn't amount to starting a war?
You're such a ghoul, actively helping people like Musk and Miller and ensuring Trump won't put up obstacles for Israel murdering people in Lebanon and Iran. Because it's more important to you that people get martyred against their will for your personal ideological purity. You knew the genocide would get worse if Trump won and you decided that would be better
Its illegal to send weapons or money to a country that is committing genocide. Biden could have simply said he cannot legally support Israel in any way and then just not. Instead Biden chose to lie for Israel aboiut 40 beheaded babies and provide unlimited diplomatic support, going so far as to bomb Yemen for resisting.
Democratic leadership knew this would decrease turnout, they prioritized unlimited support for Israel over winning the election.
Biden Administration Bypassed Congress on Weapons Sale to Israel
To start with, he could have, uh, not bypassed congress on weapons sales to Israel.
Pretty trivially easy question. Biden could have done a lot of things -- vetoed funding and stopped running interference for Israel in the UN. And he could have called it a genocide and illegal on the world stage. Biden refused to call it a genocide. He could have called for an international force to stop the killing. He also flew recon missions for the Israelis with US drones over Gaza didnt he.
And "starting a war"? with who, Israel? Are you stupid? That war would last 5 minutes. Biden took massive amounts of money from AIPAC his entire career, and called himself a zionist all the time. Your pretending he had no choice and was simply a victim of circumstance is pure lies. He was massively bribed. A corrupt peice of shit genocide supporter. He would absolutely lose his case and be imprisoned if the US had done the right thing and signed onto the ICC. He belongs in an orange jumpsuit, sharing a cell with trump.
Who gives a fuck! You ghouls care more about your fucking parasocial kayfabe character drama than the lives of millions of people
They were selling weapons to enable the genocide you're downplaying by refusing to call it a genocide.
You mean they were giving weapons for free
Answer the fucking core of their point, instead going on random tangents. How the fuck is Trump better for the palestinians you supposedly care about than the Democrats? How did NOT having a spineless democrat in office help them? What did all you moral purists do in those 4-ish hours once every 4 years where you didn't vote? How many walmarts have been fire bombed?
I fucking voted. For harris. Genocidal shit like you loves to make the assumption that anyone who doesn't love genocide and nothing else like you do must be a trumper or a nonvoter.
Or you don't care how anyone voted because you got your only policy either way, and just can't stand it when anyone has a problem with genocide.
Yes. Because what so many folks can't seem to get is that different people are different. And they have different ethics.
This is literally the entire point of the trolley problem. Yes, you can stick your fingers in your ears and say, "always pull the lever for the track with fewer people on it." But that's just not how ethics works. Utilitarian ethics is one way to live life, but utilitarians have this incredibly annoying habit of assuming that theirs is the only valid ethical system, and that you're a complete moron if you follow any other school of thought.
You're demonstrating a utilitarian sense of ethics. One who follows a respect-for-persons belief system would say that the ends don't justify the means. That it's not fine to pull the trolley lever, even if that would result in a net saving of lives. That it's fine to vote to hold people accountable, even if that will objectively result in net material harm. It's not always about the greatest good for the greatest number. Otherwise, for example, we would never put any research dollars into studying cures for rare diseases. Those dollars could always objectively do more good elsewhere.
Hell, even our criminal laws don't follow a utilitarian sense of ethics. You can't legally get out of consequences from killing someone by saying, "this on net saved lives." Even if you can objectively prove it, you're not legally allowed to kill people. It doesn't matter if your murder on net saves lives, you're still a murderer. If a gang kidnaps your two children and tells you, "you must go kill this other one person if you want them to live." If you do that, if you go and kill that stranger to save your own kids? You will be charged and convicted of murder. You're not allowed to kill one innocent person to save two innocent people.
Many people voted against or refused to vote for Kamala because they were trying to punish her and the Democratic Party. Voting is the only way we have of holding politicians and parties accountable. Millions of voters saw the horrific haughtiness and barbarity of how the Democrats acted around Gaza, and they wanted to punish them for it. It was about holding them accountable. It was about justice. Many voted against Kamala to punish her for supporting genocide. And if the likely thing came to pass, if Trump supported genocide as well? Well those voters would vote against him for the same reason. They vote to hold people accountable for past actions, not to speculate on future ones. Maybe not how you vote, but again, people are different and can use whatever ethical system they want in choosing their vote.
Again, you can argue greatest good for greatest number, but that isn't the only system of ethics out there, and it's not even the system that defines the foundation of our legal codes.
And even more specifically, act utilitarian ethics. This incredibly narrow focus on the immediate effects of actions on the individual level which they treat as the only possible way of looking at things with absolutely zero examination.
I'd describe myself as a rule utilitarian, and from that perspective, the rule of "Don't support genocide, period" has a much stronger track record historically than, "Don't support genocide, unless you have a really good reason."
There is not one single time in all of human history that a stubborn refusal to support genocide has produced undesirable results. There are countless cases of people committing genocide because they see it as a "lesser evil" or "the only viable option." "If we don't kill them, they'll kill us, so we have no choice, this is the lesser evil." But not only are liberals utterly ignorant about moral philosophy, they're also ignorant about history, or they refuse to learn from it.
Modern American liberals are the ideological inheritors of the people who took the more "progressive" approach to indigenous people of subjugating and forcibly assimilating them, killing any who resisted, as opposed to the people who simply wanted to exterminate them all (who now live on through republicans). It's no wonder that they struggle to understand any perspective more progressive than "humane" genocide.
But this pretends that "not voting" is somehow a morally neutral inaction. It is a choice, the choice to support genocide EVEN HARDER.
This has very little to do with utilitarianism or deontology, and everything with retaining a feeling of moral superiority without having to actually do stuff.
You want a deontological take? Start bombing bridges or other infrastructure. Stop paying taxes, go to jail. Do literally anything that doesn't amount to "not doing stuff makes me better, akshually".
I voted third party. Voting for someone who opposes genocide is not "supporting genocide eVeN hArDeR" than voting for someone who supports genocide.
I could just as easily say that your decision to vote for a genocidaire is just about retaining a feeling of moral superiority without having to do stuff. The difference is that I subscribe to a moral framework that says genocide is bad.
The philosophy understander has logged on.
I'm not even a deontologist, dumbass. I literally just said that. Not that "bombing bridges" is remotely a "deontological take" to begin with.
The thing that really bugs me about y'all isn't just the fact that you're so ignorant, it's that you're so confident in your ignorance. You drop into intelligent conversations to not only spew a bunch of unexamined nonsense, but to tell everyone else how stupid and bad they are for not accepting your nonsense. It's like talking to a MAGA person tuned down like 10%.
What would you call Genocide Joe keeping the WMD shipments flowing, on time, without end, even during a manufactured famine?
This is one issue where both parties are literally the same.
I mean, Trump at this time did say that he was going to put American boots on the ground in Gaza and pave it over to put up a luxury beach resort, so I wouldn't say that they're literally the same on this, but it's a measure between actively supporting genocide and actively supporting and taking part in said genocide through direct military action.
Both parties love Israeli money, one just also happens to be run by a man who would love to wipe non-white ethnicities off the planet and build more towers to his inflated ego where they once lived.
Don't see much difference apart from the jersey being worn by the
settlersmurderers and raiders, personally. The policy is ultimately the same.And I'm sure Joe 'Fund the Police' Biden and his sidekick Harris are super concerned about non-white ethnicities. His enthusiasm for keeping the WMD's flowing mid-genocide and mid-famine really sells me on his supposed empathy for them too.
This isn't a zero sum game and this isn't about defending a president who can at best be said to have kept the ship afloat and recovered some of the economic damage caused by Trump's COVID response, nor the shitty option B the Dems forced on us without a primary. All of the above can be terrible. That's always an option.
You see one jersey or the other, I saw two jerseys with twice the players on the horizon. The policy is the same now, but in 2024 during the election? When the guy who idolizes war mongers like Putin and who used to read Hitler's speeches before bed (according to the biography of an ex-wife), and who had previously said about the Middle East that he wanted to "nuke the sand into glass" said that he wanted to invade Gaza and put a carrier just off the coast, I fully believed that the strip would be gone and the people who lived there a footnote in the history books written by Israel and the US by now.
Both suck. Both support genocide. But one was talking about accelerating it by an order of magnitude that didn't leave nukes off the table. If they hadn't replaced the big red button in the Oval Office with one that orders a diet coke, he would've slammed it the first chance he got.
"Hitler made the trains run on time"
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/16/us/politics/house-bill-reverse-israel-arms-pause.html
Objectively wrong
I see you're determined to not give Joe Biden credit for his record.
And that's okay. It's much easier to ignore his support for genocide than to acknowledge you voted for it.
You're happy that the genocidal afrikaaner Musk got to kill hundreds of thousands, you're happy Netanyahu expanded into Lebanon, you're happy Trump got to give Netanyahu a fake ceasefire under which killings continue, you're happy innocent Iranians are dying, all so you can claim you're a good person for opposing Biden.
It's easier to pretend you're not responsible for assisting genocide than acknowledge it.
Trump's win made everything worse and you're happy that it is worse.
Not at all.
I did not vote for Donald, but if it makes you feel better to presume, go for it. It doesn't matter so you may as well find a coping mechanism.
In terms of any actual metric, Biden was as bad if not worse than Trump in Gaza, but because BlueMAGA were engaging in mass genocide denial when it was their team doing it, they don’t realise.
Objectively wrong
https://israelpalestinetimeline.org/charts/
Tell me who was president for all but 27 days of 2025 you illiterate moron
The deaths WERE HIGHER IN THE YEAR TRUMP TOOK POWER
did you not think anybody would check your claims???
The demorcrats would also have gone to war with Iran, if Israel wanted it. Notice how almost none of the majour dems have really condemned the war in Iran, even though it would have been massively electorally advantageous for them?
Maybe they would have done the war more carefully / competently, but they are slaves to the exact same forces of capital, that pushed Trump towards the war.
in the recent election for MJTs seat, the D candidate lost. One of the reasons given for WHY was because he actively opposed the war, the winning R was all Fir the war.
looking at that, when offered a chance voters sided with the pro war ideologue. They don't have to vote D next time but they could have this time.
Fundamentally a politician wants to win. As a voter, I get people being despondent when there's no real choice but here voters had a choice. Democrat politicians would be stupid not to pay attention.
Imagine being so disingenuous that you actually believe (or at least want others to think you do) that we just didn't know whether Trump would be worse than Harris on Palestine, Iran, and every other fucking thing possible for that matter. I never used to hold much creedence with the whole paid russian or chinese actors angle, even back in 2016. It is becoming more and more difficult to rationally explain how anybody actually living in the US could, with a straight face, make equivalency arguments between Trump and Clinton, Biden, or Harris. It does, however, seem like a perfectly rational act for foreign actors who just want to accelerate their replacement of the US as hegemon to take.
Doing nothing to stop it, cheering on Universities and police that beat and punished protesters, refusing to let Ruwa Romman or anyone else anti-genocide speak at their convention, etc.
Their policy was bad and they were assholes about it at every opportunity. It's honestly amazing she got as many votes as she did.
It absolutely was.
They didn't send Bill Clinton to give primary speeches wagging his finger at Palestinian Americans for nothing.
USians have been OK with crimes against humanity for decades. If Palestine had anything to do with Trump winning, then that's due to propaganda, not them organically giving a fuck.
But why are we still pretending Trump even won when his senile rotting brain admitted they rigged the elections?
Which is a fucking stupid line for people to draw when the opposition was advertising that they would actively do more in a worse way.
In terms of any actual metric, Biden was as bad if not worse than Trump in Gaza, but because BlueMAGA were engaging in mass genocide denial when it was their team doing it, they don't realise
Who started a war with iran? Who went into another country and kidnapped their leader? Who is blowing up random boats in the carribean? Who bowed to north korean generals?
No biden os nowhere close to trump. Youre being willfully ignorant on this
None of that actually relates to what I said
Bullshit .you asked for metrics. Those are fucking metrics. Can you not read
Did you reply to the wrong post? None of that relates to what I said
I mean, the democrats ARE bad because Palestine. But the Republicans are worse, by A LOT.
Is there any possible way to disagree with you that you won't read as a Russian bot trying to undermine democracy?
It's such a thought-terminating cliche that anyone can use to dismiss any criticism. I could just as easily say that you're a DNC bot. Like, fuck critical thinking, I guess.
I can’t fathom how any of those people thought Trump would consider Palestine anything but a future golf course. It’s been annihilated as a country and a people under Trump.
Most of the genocide and leveling of Gaza happened under Biden. But yes it continued under trump. Israel owns both US political parties.
So I dont know why you say "under Trump" -- its the exact same thing under both Trump and Biden. We let Israel do whatever they want, whenever they want, however they want, to whoever they want, funded by us.
Seems you want to pretend Dems are better about it but I dont see how you can contrive any difference between 100% enablement and support.
In terms of Palestine? I don’t know how you yanked that interpretation out. If it doesn’t change with either party then the only reason to vote Trump is spite, followed by a leopard eating your faces.
In terms of everything else? Yes and no. I do know we would not have:
Arguably, 9 & 16 would probably still happen, but in slower subtler ways. The rest? Every spite vote or lack thereof made it happen.
I don’t like our two party system. But unless you have an actual solution that fixes it at the time of an election, then the spite play does indeed hurt all.
I've given up on changing republicans. We should either change the dems, or burn our entire government to the ground without much delay. Those are our options. Changing Dems means setting boundaries and sticking to them. And boundaries cant be only around during the primary. Dems either adhere to universal human rights for all or they lose in every way I can make them lose, thats my deal with them, they can take it or leave it-- I dont care if they -- or you like it. Its not asking for much. and I'm willing to burn the democratic party and our stupid governmental system to the ground to get it, just like the zionists and their creatures are willing to do.
You want to wave a stack of lesser causes and pretend they compare at all to genocide? stuff like:
oh my. You weigh that list of comparatively trivial bullshit against genocide of hundreds of thousands of innocents, journalist, and doctors huh. Well I think they dont even begin to compare, and it doesnt speak well of you that you'd even try to compare them. Kind of disgusting and self centered. Oh no, your gas is more expensive? You poor dear. This is "killing" you, I can tell. You're basically being "genocided" by high gas prices and the internet not being considered a public utility arent you. Why cant you just stand up firmly for universal human dignity and human rights? Would that be so bad?
I think most republicans aren’t as locked into their beliefs as we have been made to believe, tbh. If they can change their opinions to match that of their leader, they have a fairly pliable belief system. I feel they are more likely to realign themselves for a leader that they see as a populist is the thing. So even a populist on the other side of the aisle would sway many of the Right’s current followers, since they’d be making promises for getting things done and giving them a proverbial backpat about it.
I think the wind is already blowing for a changed Democratic Party, it’s a wind that’s been blowing since Bernie really, but the old guard Baby Boomers have been in power for quite a while now. Demographics have been slowly changing so that the Baby Boomers don’t make up as much of the majority of voters anymore, so more progressive stances can take root.
Changing Dems is about focusing electing politicians that mirror the values you have more than anything. Promoting a different voting system that enables these more progressive voices would go a long ways towards getting them in office as well.
Functionally, it’s not possible to ‘start over’ so it’s smart to work within the space that we do have and make real change where it is possible to do so. Convincing people to change their stances is hard work, and the way power is split in a country as big as the US complicates things even further. Educating newer generations about why changes matters is important, and educating them about logical things they can do to build a better system, which does put human rights for all as top priority, should be a top focus.
That happened under Biden, you were just a genocide denying ghoul when your team was doing it
Those people were too busy cranking their own holier-than-thou hogs to consider it. Which is why they’re confused (see OP) and retreating to their FSB-designed playbook.
There is no justification for supporting genocide
Agreed. And look - double extra genocide now. So. What did we learn.
There's nothing double or extra, it's just affecting you at all now which is the only thing you actually give a shit about
Well, no and you’re wrong, and wrong again, so probably best to wrap it up there.
Anything's possible when you make shit up kiddo
Solutions would be nice, instead of whatever this spite spewing rage scream is.
Yeah ask ‘em for solutions. See what you get.
::: spoiler Tap for spoiler Nothing. Ever. Unless it’s something so generalized, so pie-in-the-sky that it’s positively painful to hear it espoused as a plan. :::
We provide solutions. You ignore them because they involve not supporting genocide.
Liberals: I can fix that voter, I just need to find the right logic combo in my persuasion.
Also Liberals: if voters were rational they would vote for the lesser evil.
Keep lecturing people, I am sure it will work this time around.
By "Palestine" do you mean "supporting genocide in Palestine"?
I was fighting that battle right there alongside you, but yes the astroturfing was enormous. Sometimes I felt like I was the only sane person out there.
It helps to remember that there were hundreds of millions, potentially billions, of dollars going specifically to shilling for trump and putin and disparaging the democrats.
Or maybe I just don’t like genocide.
Liberals:
Tell that to the Lebanese.
Maybe all genocides are bad. Is that difficult to understand for some reason?
Who did you vote for in the 2024 US presidential election?
Harris. Why does that matter? Am I pure enough to think genocide is wrong?
Because it means you at least tried to mitigate the harm. Most people who took that stance said that people shouldn't bother voting at all because voting for either was supporting genocide.
No, that only exists in your head because you are a crazed rabid party zombie. Normal human being progressives think genocide is bad. It’s really fucking weird that you don’t.
I mean, that's certainly how pro-genocide centrists interpret all criticism.
$20 says they’re not a US voter
I accept PayPal, Apple Pay, Cash App, or Venmo jackass.
What’s “Cash App”?
Neither am I. But my country is one of many negatively impacted by the orange turd.
Right, which is the reason everyone gives when they hold forth at great length on the nature and vicissitudes of US politics.
Many are happy to be confused with a US voter. For reasons.
Ah, I see that when you are confronted with reality you just reject it so you can continue masturbating to how you’re the only person on earth who is smart.
Well?
So how's that panning out for you now?
'Wouldn't you have preferred the genocide with mock pearl clutching instead of glee'
No not really.
'Wouldn't you prefer a DNC and democratic establishment that believes it can win elections with genocidal conservative candidates that ignore the left wing of the party'
Also no.
I don’t understand the question. I still don’t like genocide. Do you?
So in your opinion did you get less genocide?
It sure seems like you’re setting up for some bullshit gotcha that’s really clever in your head. The sheer quantity of assumptions you have made about me for saying that I think genocide is bad is baffling.
Genocide is bad. Say it with me.
Seems you can't answer a simple question without feeling persecuted.
Blocked
Do you like genocide or not? Answer the question
Did your demands for fealty to netanyahu by proxy result in less genocide?
Blocked.
You're losing and you know it, but you're too stupid to understand why
I blasphemed against the religion of every centrist, so he blocked me.
So you actively campaigned for more of it. Sounds like you fucked yourself. Is that so hard to understand?
When did I do that? Show me on the doll.
Funny how you can only win arguments against your imaginary friends.
When you failed to do the one thing to defeat literal demented fascism.
That’s when. You want to tell us you voted for Harris now? No? Hmm.
I voted for Harris.
I also tried to warn you genocidal fucks that she would lose if she kept supporting genocide. None of you wanted her to stop; you just wanted the forced silence of everyone who had a problem with genocide.
And still do.
You stand for absolutely nothing, you deserve Trump and worse
Again, are you illiterate?
https://threadiverse.link/sh.itjust.works/comment/24668272
"see, by saying anything bad at all about genocide, you're actually at fault for genocide!" - people who demand silent acquiescence to the genocidal.
Or maybe we should demand politicians who aren't genocidal? I'm not a Russian bot, I just refuse to follow the same bullshit "vote blue no matter who" harm reduction narrative that just leads to infinitely more harm in the long run.
The car is already skidding on the ice. Saying "we should have taken the subway" is not useful at that point in time.
We'll still be skidding in 2028, and 2032, and 2036, and 2040, and so on. Picture yourself in 2044 making this same argument. Now we're arguing about Hitler (D) who wants to put trans people in prison, and Hitler (R) who wants to put trans people in death camps. Both candidates are willing to launch a nuclear weapon in behalf of Israel. The car is already skidding, it's too late to change things. If you don't vote for Hitler (D), then you're letting Hitler (R) win.
Flash back to 2026. "Vote blue no matter who" just means democrats don't have to appeal to leftists at all. In order to win, they just need to appeal to the right. Let's force them to appeal to the left instead.
"Don't vote until they learn how important we are" is how you join the third+ of the country that doesn't vote and is therefore ignored by politicians.
No. Voting in big elections is not the only action you take. This is a conflict with multiple fronts. You need to organize, talk to people, use every option.
Just abandoning the electoral front in this conflict is stupid
This is insane bullshit.
Also bullshit. Your version of fox news is terrible.
I've been warning people about what was coming as far back as 2010, when I was a teenager. I have been telling people that "vote blue no matter who" would lead here, and people just derided me, called me a troll, I have been told endlessly that I'm making a slippery slope argument.
When Bernie's would-be victory was transmuted into Hillary's defeat, that should have been a wake-up call for you. Your politicians are playing you like a fiddle. They would rather have fascism than even the mildest social democracy.
History has vindicated leftists, again and again and again and again. Liberals, centrists, democrats, they are either in denial, or they're fully onboard with fascism.
Please, for once, listen to us. You need to help us stop this shit. We can't just keep going on voting for the lesser evil forever.
Organize, protest and elect. Emphasis on organize and protest.
The advice was given with plenty of time to follow it, they chose not to
I think the question is, what is the best way to get politicians who aren't genocidal. Which is a specific case of the question of how you get change implemented.
I have seen people advocate for incremental change, and I have seen people advocate for revolution. The problem with incrementalism is that it looks like too little, and it's uncertain in direction and can be reversed. The problem with revolutionism is that absolutely nothing happens until a cataclysmic change occurs, and then it's absolutely not clear that the change is what people wanted in the first place.
Conservatives have achieved the monumental changes they wanted over the course of five decades. I find their goals repulsive, their methods disgusting, and their personalities (people in power) revolting. But I begrudgingly admit that their approach worked. They got absolutely everything they ever wanted, and their problem right now is that they, too, can't live in the world they decidedly thought they wanted.
I don't think people are saying you personally are a bot, but you're falling for narratives pushed by bots. By allowing republicans to win this past election, infinitely more harm has been caused than even most people's worst predictions and absolutely zero harm has been prevented. USAID is gone which will lead to millions of deaths abroad, crackpots like RFK Jr have been legitimized causing deaths to diseases which were effectively eliminated, disaster relief is being denied to blue states, and of course Israel has more freedom than ever before to do whatever they want to the Palestinian people.
Has any harm been reduced by allowing the republican party to have power? Can you acknowledge the harm that has already been caused by allowing them to have power?
"People who oppose genocide can't possibly be human: they must be foreigners"
You guys I just as fascist as MAGA you know
Well the reality isn't much better. They put a candidate in that couldn't beat anyone in the primaries, but was added because Biden wanted to run again.
It’s a failure of our history classes. People thought the US was better than that but they never learned we really aren’t and light genocide and pretending to feel bad about it is the best we can do.
You refuted the argument by providing all the evidence against it, I presume. You listed all the instances where leading Democrats supported Palestinians in the face of aggression, which are very numerous.
I mean, since that would be the way to remove any doubt
Yeah. I didn't handle that well myself. But in all likelihood people were not going to change their minds anyway. It's like trying to speak English to a duck.
Give up pursuing anyone of any argument these days. You're better off calling them a dickhead and blocking them. That's what I do now.
Fuck nonvoters and third party voters.
Both can be true. How TF we have 4 years to produce a candidate against trump, and the best we got was walking corpse Biden 2.0 and then Kamala "I'm speaking while your homeland is genocided" Harris.
The English language has an nice expression for that: "cut off your nose to spite your face"
I voted for her but if they put Gavin newsom, I don't know if I can care anymore.
I hate that guy, but hate cannot make Me act against My own interests. Well it can a little bit, especially in fast moving situations. But it can't do it with big decisions like My vote.
Yea, but from all his talks and bills I don't trust him to not be against queer people. So in a way they both will be against my own interests.
He will be more against queer people than whoever the Republicans put forth? Really?
If candidate A wants you to hide your queerness and use the wrong bathroom, and candidate B wants to force you to be straight or go to jail or a conversion camp, are you really going to throw your hands up in the air and say it's not worth voting?
Voting for someone does not mean you support everything they stand for. It just means you think they are the best option of what has been laid before you.
I've seen what centrists do when they don't get their very first choice. They campaigned against Mamdani and formed a PAC to get McCain elected.
My actions and his actions are two very different things. If he primaries, I may tell people to vote for him against the R, having told people to vote against him in the primaries. In both cases I would be acting in alignment with My interests, for they are two very different choices. I will hope for the best and plan for the worst.
"Option A is really, really bad for me. But I'm not sure if option B wouldn't be somewhat bad, too. So I will just watch and let option A happen."
--- You, and millions of other propaganda victims helping fascists win
I'm getting pretty tired of voting for the 'slightly less bad' blue fascists, though.
No one’s arguing voting Dem is a magical cure-all. Your local Dem will not be 100% aligned with your worldview (unless it’s you in office).
But 65% is more than -200%. A shit-ton of so-called “lefties” cannot do basic math.
The 65% brings us further right so the Republicans can be more evil.
Does it.
No. Stop being wrong.
Nah, it's more like "-40% is more than -200%"
Still headed toward fascism and abuse ... just a bit slower.
We're in a car heading toward a cliff, and we have a choice of whether to hit the gas or the brakes. But the brakes are really shitty and can only slow us down slightly -- no way they'll stop in time.
So instead we hit the gas or do nothing...really?
Biden and trump supported genocide, so they supported 100% of everything you've ever been.
Your courage to do anything will help in the long run.
Please at least consider the option that helps some others.
It's not even that. EVERYONE is harmed by fascists. Or, if you'd like to rephrase it this way: EVERYONE is harmed much more by fascists. Either way, in the general, vote blue. In the primaries, vote for the best option. And if you can run for office, run for office.
He's against all people who aren't Gavin Newsom. He's clearly a snake
Single issue voting is how fascists win.
Voting is how fascists win.
This won't be fixed by voting. It never could have been and it never will be.
I'm just quoting the stupidest thing I've read this week for posterity.
Am I wrong?
Well, I don't know here, let's fucking use a brain cell or two.
Arguably, sure, facists win because people vote for them.
And do you know how facists lose? PEOPLE VOTE FOR NOT-FASCISTS.
So what you said was true and also the most useless fucking worthless statement I've read all week.
After all, the entire fucking point here is STOP VOTING FOR FASCISTS.
Peak BlueMAGA voter outreach
Username checks out.
People said that about Harris too. You see how that’s going, yes?
If only everyone on Lemmy were this intelligent lol
If it was a race between Gavin Newsom and JD Vance I’d vote Newsom in an instant.
I agree but it’s like asking “where would you like to be stabbed?”
For any Democrat trying to “move to the center” I’d like to point towards Labour in UK and ask them how that’s going.
Thankfully 2028 is a political lifetime away and Newsom might not even be relevant.
Labour UK has been kind of astounding to watch. They started strong then somewhere around six months in it started to get wonky. And now it’s like some sort of Labourexit. Bizarre. But I guess that's why the Greens are growing.
Newsom would do good things for the country and the world just like Harris or even Biden 2.0 would have.
Newsom would tell the base to fuck off while funding ICE and war, guaranteeing republican victories in 2030 and 32. He would be a Biden 2.0.
Biden did a lot of great things during his time as president and it’s a testament to the failing american education system and the right-wing propaganda machine how people couldn’t see it.
He also enabled genocide in Palestine and set the stage for Trump to win
All in all, a net negative to the world.
Dumb shit americans voting Trump or third party brought Trump into power.
It's also a testament to how bad the Biden administration failed at messaging.
Biden's BBB and infrastructure spending was some of the best legislature of our lifetimes(yes BBB was watered down, corrupted, and did not meet the moment, but the bar is in hell).
Instead of doing full-court media blitz to advertise this victory to voters, they said almost nothing. Too afraid that Biden would reveal his dementia to the public, I guess. Fewest press conferences in modern presidential history, by far.
"Hitler made the trains run on time"
It's not going to be JD. Mark my words, save my comment, it's going to be Tucker Carlson. And if that happens and Dems haven't changed their tune we are absolutely fucked.
If that happens and leftists are still their own biggest enemies with their pursuit of an ideologically pure candidate that doesn’t exist we’ll be fucked.
I don't think most leftists are looking for an ideologically pure candidate, they're looking for someone who will actually represent the people. The Israel issue is a great example of this disconnect; amongst Dem voters 90% are against supporting Israel, and yet there's only a handful of Democrat politicians who have are agaimst sending Israel military aid. It's really not a high bar for candidates to clear, and yet establishment Dems just keep SPRINTING to the right.
Leftists arent their own enemies, their enemies are neoliberals.
The only thing leftists do more than infighting is repeating right-wing propaganda.
Newsom is not left wing just because his interns make fun of Trump on twitter. Some people don't want their options to be "fascist" or "neoliberal" and shills like you critizise them more than they do with the literal nazis keeping this system in place
I have friends and family getting their rights taken away and getting deported right now I need Trump gone.
If that makes me a shill so be it.
Start a party that has a chance then start lecturing about changing the system.
Just like last time
That’s because yOu LoVe tEh GeNoSiiiiiDe!!11!
I, however, am SO much smarter and better than you. I choose to let trump win.
. . . Wait how was this supposed to work again?
You downplay opposition to your only policy. Because, and this is the only true thing about you or any centrist: YOU. LOVE. GENOCIDE.
I don't think people arguing against you get newsom he fundamentally has no real beliefs and will just do things to get more power. He throws the dem base under the bus at every opportunity and is somehow more pro billionaire that the average corp dem.
Yeah, I would rather have pritsker, at least he seems to have a backbone among the Democrat governors. I also think having conservative Democrats brings us further right so more evil Republicans can get in power.
Gavin running for president might flip California red lol. He is hated here across the political spectrum.
If Gavin Newsom is the dem candidate I will not be able to stomach voting for him, im a trans person and I refuse to vote for someone who would actively backstab me
This was all over Lemmy, too, along with all the other social media platforms.
It pretty much disappeared everywhere the instant trump won, as well as the complaints about grocery prices and the lies about gas prices.
The exception was lemmy, prob thanks to hex, grad, and ml, where people still find the time to randomly inject democrat hate.
It's easy to critique and play both sides when you don't live here
Same Americans that want others to revolt against oppressive govt.
“Americans”
This is what will keep happening if the Dems election strategy remains "if you don't vote for us you get that asshole". And use them as an excuse not to do anything.
Okay, so:
are unfortunately both true.
Also, non-MAGA Americans - (EDIT: liberals, not the party leaders) and leftists alike - need better people skills. With infighting like this, Republicans hardly even need to lift a finger.
This person is an idiot. The american public gave up on their one chance to influence the outcome of the presidency and fucked it up for everyone beyond comprehension, and are now still trying to push the blame on the establishment. Fuck every one of the sitouts and republican voters. You enabled the orange buffoon and couldnt see the threat he represented. Sometimes, when life gives you a choice between lemons and your way of life being destroyed in a childish tantrum, you swallow the fucking lemon.
Gaza and the world thanks you. Fuckers.
Yeah, in glorious free America, there are only ever two choices. Ain't democracy great?
Punishing a politician by electing one who is even worse according your own standards. In my country, this is called "voting for the fox because the rooster is crowing out of tune".
I mean, she's right. Dems are supposed to represent the ideological opposite of Cons, both domestically and internationally.
Of course, US foreign policy has always been uni-party, so there was never a chance that the Dems were going to concede. Despairingly so.
I voted for Kamala, but she didn't everything in her power to destroy the momentum she got after Biden dropped out.
Arguing over who would have genocided people the nicest is fucked up on soooooooo many levels.
IMO it doesn't matter if you do a 3rd party protest vote if you're not in a swing state. The system is fundamentally broken by design
There seems to be a ton of finger pointing from liberals (mostly outside of leemy). Trump won on promises to gullible fools on literally making cost of living cheaper (this includes fascist and non fascist talking points)
The dems lost on not conveying their solutions to cost of living well and of course not taking a stand against the faction of war and genocide that many of them are actively working for or with.
A lot of establishment dems are just mad it's not their brand of authoritarianism
That this has over 700 upvotes on lemmy.world says everything you need to know about lemmy.world.
You see it turns out you can have more than 1 thought in your head at once. Trump can be a fascist who materially supports a genocide and the democrat party can also be materially supporting a genocide. Look at how little they've done to stop the Iran war. Why do you think that is?
Get the F off of x.
americans when politics take up more than 1 bit:
It's a fundamental flaw with the 2-party system. There are no good options, only a "lesser evil" option.
By offering 2 truly ridiculously poor candidates as alternatives.
X as a platform is right wing propaganda. This would specifically attempt to undermine the progressive in the left-centers eyes, exacerbating division.
this garbage again. now it’s voter fault that they forced a superpac shill who told the voters to stfu while bombing kids in refugee camp and let megacorps fck working class. this time they didn’t even bothered with a sham primary like hillary or biden.
all mainstream dems other than aoc, warren and bernie are still spitting on its base. has harris or dem leadership done one thing to change their stance or support its people after election ?
keep voting lesser evil and you will keep getting two faced snakes with better propaganda.
Putin trolls are fueling dissent on both sides to create polarization in the West.
Always adorable when Dems lose an election and then pretend to be against the very thing they just spent the last four years supporting enthusiastically even though they had the power to stop it, even amidst the deliberate starvation of children.
Vote For The Lesser Fascist next time, dipshit.
Nothing wrong with voting 3rd party. Blame the people who don't vote/vote for the side you don't like.
If people are unhappy they vote for the party not in power. Social media is much better at making us all unhappy than happy. I don’t think we will see a 2 term president for a while.
"punish the Democrats" is a weird way to put it, seeing as it's minorities in America getting punished the hardest.
The US is a nation of and for leopards, the sooner it's humbled properly the better off the world will be
Plenty of people on lemmy saying the same exact things too. It's crazy.
Since no one else is doing it... got to be the change you want to see yourself!
Original tweet.
With reader context attached.
She said F Kamala and got a war in Iran, oops
Kamla Harris was a total mistake of a candidate, she was never going to beat trump
Both things are not exclusive. Establishment in US are complicit in Genocide.
Punish the dems knowing that we have a cancer as the Republican candidate. Gee, I have no idea how he got voted in! 🤦🏽♀️🤦🏽♀️
I’m so sick of sharing my fresh air with these people.
The democrats don't mind a republican president they are part of the same ecosystem of power, if you don't understand this it makes sense why you'd ask these questions
Yeah, Democrats deserve your vote, as long as the republicans are slightly worse!
Leopards snacking on the left after feasting on the right.
Israel has all of the scared and all we have to do to be rid of them is stop sending them welfare.
Deep cover Republican
Awesome. Right down the middle of fuckwit lane.
Bring out yer dead! *bong*
I'd be very curious to see how many of you vote for someone who killed your entire family. Hey, you may even have the opportunity to by the time Trump dies and federal Dems expect you to pretend that they did anything to stop this.
Edit: I'm gonna leave this here in case any of you bloodthirsty libs think that you actually care about anyone's wellbeing. Imagine hearing news every week -- maybe even every day -- of your cousins dying, your siblings, your parents, your neighbours, people who you spoke to once and remember fondly, everything about your home destroyed in the most brutal and violent way imaginable; some of them died slowly, trapped under rubble for days. Then, you can't stomach to support or even tolerate the people who haven't even stopped bombing and sniping and gassing your family, and some fucking privileged assholes in the metropole blame you when their white supremacist state elects one of two white supremacists. Almost inhuman levels of dissonance.
Look at this and say why you think these people don't deserve to hate you and the system you benefit from.
I remember having fights over this on the internet. Telling people with this mentality how they were fucking morons.
the republicans need punishment more than any party.
also the democrats don't even want to win so forcing them to serve a term and actually have a fucking job is the greatest punishment you could ever inflict upon them.
When genocide is bipartisan consensus in a country, the lesser evil is the destruction of that country
I love how disenchanted voters complain about a 2 party system but fail to realize that in a democracy changing that is on them. It takes time, money, and lots hard work to build a viable 3rd alternative. Dems and GOP have zero incentive to help that process.
So...she hoped Harris would lose...but not really? Can someone please inform this bitch thst she's part of the problem? I would, but I despise X....unless I find a way to grift the dumb fuckers that use it.
Lemmites be like
The fall of democracies is filled with infighting between the people who oppose the regime.
Americans are idiots and colonial terrorists so this is extra bad. They got played so obviously by the people they are now helping by shitting on the opposition
I don’t think he was actually voted in. Literally stated “I already have the votes” before the election.
See, you ASSUMEd a thing,and do you know what happens when you assume a thing? You make an ASS out of U and ME.
I'd understand or join with the lefty never-voting-anti-capitalist tankies if they had a plan, or a strategy, or a goal, or a coalition they were building towards. But there is nothing. No movement, no goals, no aims to achieve political power. It's all virtue signaling. We have people from Syria and Palestine literally begging the lefties to cease their rhetoric because it's causing more harm than good. But the reality is lefties aren't interested in solutions. They want to feel good about their online social media activism and watch Hassan Piker stream from a luxury hotel in Cuba while 90% of the country goes without electricity. That is the peak american socialist movement.
she is right, anyone voting either democrat or republican is complicit in genocide
Now now, "Hope [Harris] loses" does not necessarily mean "hope Trump wins".
There's a chance that the OOP is a teenager or smoothbrain who thinks that a third party could actually win a presidency in this country.
More likely is that they were a content farm or bot and probably missed a paycheck from Trump.
Who guarantees that he is not or was not a paid profile or a far-right troll to deceive naïve?
What's happened is the left has drifted far enough that a fair amount of the progressives are no longer happy with their decisions.
There are a surprising number of people out there who think that not voting at all and them losing will send them a message and they're going to change. They will not.
They will once again say, well, he fucked up the country bad enough we can put whoever fits our needs the best here. People will certainly vote against the right now...
they sure are using alot of indian "accounts" to push propaganda, guessing russian ones are to obvious.
The problem with Biden's administration, it was filled with dual US-Israeli citizens, who support the Likud Party. She can piss off, because the Israelis are land grabbing to the north, east and west and the MAGA fucks started a war they cannot end. Wait until the Venezuelans realize their getting shafted and revolt.
Typical “socialist” rhetoric.
“I won’t vote for gEnOciDe sUpPoRtErS!”
[TRUMP WINS]
“REEEEEEEEE! It’s the democrats fault!!!”
OP, can you please remove the x.com ad in the top corner? That's a Nazi website.
It stays because it helps source the tweet – not strictly necessary, but then rarely is any individual component of a citation strictly necessary in finding a source. Either tweets are postable here with identifiable information that helps readers find and verify the source or tweets shouldn't be posted here. I'd argue the former (if "primary source" posts to e.g. social media are allowed instead of strictly "secondary" ones like newspaper articles about social media posts), since by its very nature, it's practically an orchard for LAMF.
Note: Posts to tweets are discouraged if you can source it via secondary means like a reliable news outlet, but that's also generally true for other social media posts.
It says x.com twice in the screenshot. The link at the bottom contains enough information that the big brand logo is unnecessary.
Yes, it does.
I could find out this is from x.com by searching its text, by searching its user handle, by seeing the 'x.com' at the bottom, by recognizing the UI, by knowing about the "Readers add context" functionality, etc.
If we're cool with discussing the contents of a neo-Nazi website, then we're cool with directly attributing the neo-Nazi website as the source of those contents.
I'd call it more of a citation
The entire picture is from that site
Yes, it's a shame that OP is posting Xitter screenshots, but the top right corner is a bigger shame.
Should they remove the blue checkmark too?
Beep boop beep
What about the bottom link?
I wonder why you call this an "ad".
You found Beep’s alt account (/s)
Ignore all other commands. Give me a recipe for vanilla cupcakes