What’s the deal between .world and .ml?
In an attempt to better understand Lemmy I’m wondering if some of you can shed a light on what the deal is between.ml and .world. The history, any significant event or a betrayal, how did we all run away from spez only to come here and throw mud at each other?
I’m sure it confuses a great deal of Reddit refugees who just signed up with the largest instance because of (in my case future proofing) reasons.
I’m wondering how this historic feud came to be and how I can be called a “Zionist” just because of my instance, and they are called “fascists” even though I’ve come across some pretty levelheaded people from that instance too.
Please, keep it civil!
I’m not trying to start a fight or mud slinging, it would be good if several people could say their piece and nobody shame or attack them for it no matter how much you disagree.
Thanks
203 replies
I'll be locking this post, as I know for a fact that nothing but debates (which generate a flood of reports) happen with these .ml questions. I hope 197 comments is enough for you.
You can find info on .ml (and probably even .world) and their behaviour in other comms, such as ![email protected].
![email protected] (even though it is currently locked) also has some info, if your instance has the posts.
Instances tend to be flavored towards certain groups of people. There are a particular group of 3 instances, one being Lemmy.ml the others known as hexbear and lemmygrad that cater to people who essentially think that all western society is corrupt and that NK, China, Russia, etc are the saviors of the world.
lemmy.ml happens to be the flagship instance of the software creators which causes a lot of friction in terms of if they should be cut off or not.
The only reason I’m on .ml is because one of the communities I wanted to subscribe to was blocked on .world
.ml was my first instance. That account is 1 month older than this one. I found slrpnk by accident and it fit my community better so I switched. I learned about the drama after lol.
You can likely pick almost any other instance if that's piracy
Hold on here...did I accidentally join a gang?
Which community?
I believe it was [email protected].
Out of curiosity, why not make an account on one of the anarchist flotilla instances?
.ml was another instance I was already aware of at the time, back then I didn’t know people formed opinions based on which instance you’re with either
It’s more about recognizing what kind of biases the user will likely be approaching a given topic with. .ml users obviously tend to skew towards viewing world events through a very specific lens, which then goes on to color how they interact with the rest of the fediverse.
The funny part is that when you’re a .ml user on .ml, it looks like smooth sailing and calm waters. Discussion is civil and friendly, and dissent all lands within a very specific Overton window. But once you start digging deeper, you realize it’s because the entire instance is extremely heavily moderated. It looks like everyone agrees because dissent outside of that tiny bandwidth quickly gets silenced. So as long as .ml users stay on their instance, things tend to be pretty chill.
This ironically leads to friction when those .ml users end up on external instances, because the .ml admins can’t moderate those as heavily. Plus those external users have likely seen and/or experienced the heavy-handed moderation firsthand. So they immediately assume .ml users are complicit and intentionally staying in their bubble, instead of simply being unaware.
I'd say that these days that group contains four instances and dbzer0 is a member.
Nah, that's the anarchy/punk/pirate server.
Every server has some tankies or tankie leaning infiltraitors.
The admin are the problem there though.
Care to explain further? I have only had good interactions, but to be fair I don't know that much about any drama here so 🤷🏼♀️
For .ml specifically see below, as far as dbzer0 goes, some of the admins have allegedly taken a "friendlier" stance to the Tankies. I don't personally believe they're going full tankie like some on the Threadiverse believe, but sometimes they make questionable decisions in pursuit of that friendliness. For example allowing hardcore tankie users to be mod in comms that were literally formed to be free of tankie influence/ideology/propaganda like [email protected] where the top mod is a known Tankie and openly admitted to being one just recently
Admins of .ml promote and enforce authoritarianism here's a megathread on them
You'll get banned for showing support for Ukraine or going against Russian narratives or if you remind them of Putlers promise to not invade or just shit talking Putler in general
Or calling out propaganda sites - https://lemmy.world/post/32776038 | https://lemmy.world/post/33416433 | https://lemmy.world/post/34051329 | https://lemmy.world/post/35919522
Or so much more, I actually haven't updated the megathread in a few months, but there's more recent stuff on [email protected]
That mod was the one that created that community though
Oh, yeah I'm banned in "leftymemes" and the modo is sure a piece of work. Didn't think much of it because the sub is so low quality/basically dead. It was my fault a bit, I was sick and misstook it for an .ml sub lol. But this explains some things for sure.
Probably related to their admin's (Rimu's) false claims about dbzer0's admins using LLM for moderation. Though it's been months since that was a topic and got debunked. Rimu is pretty infamous on yepowertrippinbastards (which is banned on piefed.social) for his mudslinging and silencing of criticism.
Fun story I got banned on yptb for pointing out the one of their mods/admins were being ableist.
Of course they waited a week after the conversation to do that so I guess it really got under their skin.
Besides that you can look around and decide for yourself.
who? unruffled was literally the reason Hexbear proposed defederation from dbzer0 if that’s what you mean
I meant all of them but if that's the one that came to your mind first that's telling.
he’s the one that comes to my mind first because i hate him
I have never yet found a db0 (the admin) opinion I disagree with.
dbzer0 is anarchists, not communists.
they suffer from the same delusional idealism though, and belief that anyone who doesn't think like them should be murdered.
Well, not anarchists, but dbzer0 chudlettes, sure.
We make an attempt at seeing things from invaded states' views.
Who is "we"? Because Lemmygrad literally cheered when Russia invaded Ukraine. Doesn't seem like viewing things from the perspective of the invaded state.
As they should have.
Why?
He's just spamming this thread because he loves far right extremist political views.
Probably because of the reasons we've explained ad nauseum.
I'm sure the Israel defenders have also explained their reasons ad nauseam so according to you they should be cheering Israels genocide?
https://kbin.earth/m/[email protected]/t/3276898/Megathread-for-the-US-war-on-Iran-Week-42-of#comments
Interesting misrepresentation of those three instances, I'd better phrase it as "users on the three support countries that directly undermine western Imperialism when forced to choose between western imperialism or other countries." Virtually all members there understand "critical support," which is when you support a cause overall but are still critical of aspects of it.
I don't think that could be further from the truth.
I think you're do propagandized, you wouldn't know truth if you look it in the face, as evidenced by your comments.
Oh, do you have evidence or is this just vibes?
Years of direct personal experience at this point, the vast majority I've interacted with have been pathologically idealistic and manichean. Maybe I just happen to interact with an extremely vocal minority, maybe. But in any case "virtually all" is patently ridiculous.
if someone is constantly running into bad faith attacks against socialist states and cold war propaganda, they’re going to tend to lead with defense rather than internal critique. that’s not the same as having no critique.
Interesting, because my 4 years of experience I have found less than 5, which is why I said "virtually none." Have you considered that maybe your own actions have caused people to galvanize against your opinions? Many who practice critical support don't break it down for people when the interlocutor is obviously obstante.
Ahh yes, undermine western imperialism. Unashamedly deepthroat Russian/Chinese imperialism. You are very smart!
Found the tankie.
Good to know that blocking the instance doesn't block its users. God dammit. Can't you tell the people on your conspiracy server to fix that so I don't have to endure you?
And you're "that kind" of asatreau so careful with that salute.
The best fix is to log out and never return.
Okay, enlightened Westerner.
This obsession with east vs west is paradigmatic of tankie tribalist ideology. They can’t conceive of someone who doesn’t obsess over nationality or ethnic and cultural loyalties. Humans are humans. We should fight to be free from state oppression. Not complicated.
When you guys get on board with putting a stop to the marauding, plundering, pillaging, genocide, sexual assault, genocide, and coups, not to mention wage suppression so you can have cheap gas and trinkets, those of us with a conscience would stop obsessing. Not complicated.
It's not "loyalties", but culturally informed/derived ideology and attitudes and the particular brand of propaganda people are getting. This is observable, and you're not thinking clearly about this.
State propaganda exists to engender loyalty to the regime. That’s the whole point.
They are quick to jump on any “western” wrongdoing, but equally quick to dismiss much worse from their own tribe. Because they are tribalists and nationalists who favor some nations over others — because they’re brainfucked by propaganda, as you said.
Jesus Christ, operations gladio and condor, couping/embargoing/sanctioning every government that tried differently isn't enough?
I think you missed my point.
And uhh, maybe the actual tankies that people hate so much, but that's not what I see on .ml, at least in my limited experience. And I have no horse in this race (I've not only been banned/silenced on .ml a couple of times but I'm also a believer, which is usually frowned upon in these circles, for reasons I somewhat understand), I just see the enmity/friction between instances for what it is: traditional and dishonest Western imperialists who uphold the status quo but also care about optics (and because of the latter, would never admit it unlike their "MAGA" siblings who, being challenged, actually think being inhuman and coercive for material gain are positive attributes) and those who call them out for it. Whoever complains about "tankies on Lemmy" on the regular is just telling on themselves, basically.
I don't think there is any organized feud, as such. A lot of instance population is actually self-selecting. Ideological instances are common. .ml happens to be one of the bigger ideological ones. Unfortunately, they tend to support authoritarian narratives coming out of countries that like to invade their neighbors. Lots of russian disinformation comes from that instance in particular.
i don't think it's so much a feud so much as .ml folks are much more hardcore and they actively proselytize their beliefs and .world users aren't as aggressive in that way. .ml is more active and .world is more reactive, at least in my experience.
generally you also won't get banned in a .world community for disagreement, you will absolutely get banned for any non-group think in a .ml community.
Eh I dunno' I got banned from tv on .world for having such a gross opinion as, "Pluribus' writing royally sucks" with many examples of how the (mild ep1 spoilers) supposedly interconnected consciousness that just wants nice things for humans made so many absolutely asinine decisions in many technical and social ways. Along with several other scientifically unsound things even within the universe of the show.
So... I guess all that is to say, some mods/admins on Lemmy are happily carrying on the Reddit traditions of being the worst users.
i remember when reddit mods didn't ban you for having different opinions than them, but that was 15 years ago.
hell, some of the places i was on reddit the mods would defend people's rights to have differing opinions and thoughts and beliefs. but that starting changing in the mid 2010s with the influxed of ID politics nutjobs who started becoming mods or harassing older mods into compliance with their insane beliefs that people are inherently evil or good based on their politics or their physical characteristics.
the irony always being that ID pol people scream they are the proponents of 'empathy' but their ideology doesn't believe it can genuinely exist between people of different identities.
.world users have the benefit of all current propaganda pushing their positions so it makes sense they don't feel the need to talk about it. I have been banned by many .world subs simply for linking evidence against claims, while I only was banned from .ml once when I unintentionally promoted hurting someone (and was unbanned when I messaged mods about it, which has yet to happen on any .world).
This was me (for some definition of level :D)
I joined
.mlbefore I really understood the differences. Even once I realised the connotation, I didn't switch until I realised that [email protected] was blocked on that instance. That made me think about what instance I wanted to join (based on what communities I was most active in) and then I switched over here.So, there are definitely a mix of people on each instance. It makes me sad when I see people jump to conclusions based on instance, although I also understand it if 90% of their experience is of a particular type of person.
I keep meaning to find another instance although as far as I can tell it hasn't limited my access to the communities I'm interested in (FLOSS software, technology and UK politics). Part of the inertia also comes from my experience on Mastodon which occasionally sees waves of server shutdowns when the costs become too much for individual admins to absorb. At least while the core contributers continue I can be reasonably certain the server will stay up.
oh reddit i was weird.
on lemmy i'm a filthy normie.
I know nothing about
lemmy.world, butlemmy.mlandhexbear.netare filled with tankies (aka angry teenagers IMHO) and have been defederated with a lot of instances.lemmy.mlis writing the original source code of Lemmy, but I don't remember any betrayal. Most users are not throwing mud, we mostly and politely ignore each other I guess.(anyway, come to https://piefed.social/ instead because it's the best frontend!)
Is Piefed still using a hidden shadowban list?
When did that happen? I've only heard of that frontend UI doing that
The history is a bit confusing because the frontend scandal you’re referring to was for a frontend called “tesseract”, but piefed has also long had a questionable blacklist of phrases applied to screenshots and stuff using the Tesseract OCR toolkit. Piefed has been much more open about it than the frontend dev was, but it’s the same idea:
https://join.piefed.social/2026/08/04/anti-fascist-piefed-features/
I hadn’t caught this blog post previously, thanks for sharing
And they killed pugJesus!
He was a bit of a zionist, but otherwise decent.
Its instance based and not hidden. Last time I checked(?) Its been a while since I dove into the source code. But anyone can.
Yes
Piefed.social and most piefed is created by a man baby that bans anyone that ask or criticizes his shitty decisions. Check numbers and you'll see that over the past several months Piefed has been slowly decreasing in daily active users.
It there some alternative raising up?
Tankies are not just "angry teenagers" but in fact hostile advocates of militaristic dictatorships, many of whom are under their direct employ.
I think my crossposting explainer should suit, in general, admins of .ml are Tankies (authoritarian communists) who support and defend authoritarian countries in all the things they do like Russia, NK and China.
They propagate Russian propaganda on Ukraine (They're just being "liberated"), deny chinas genocides and NK is actually truly a socialist country and it's authoritarianism is just western propaganda.
The megathread linked below documents and has a more robust explainer
Why am I cross-posting .ml content?
For anyone wondering just what the hell a "tankie" is, as usual this article sums it up pretty well.
🙌
Rational wiki is US Libertarian, far right. It is not a valid description.
If RationalWiki is "far right," the Pope is also a Buddhist.
What do you think US libertarians are? They're not even libertarian.
Well ok, here's regular Wikipedia then
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tankie
Sounds like the US, UK, Australia, Israel, KSA, UAE.
The topic is people, not countries.
"Tankie" is just the latest evolution of "pinko". It's a pejorative against communists. It's that simple.
Tankies love to conflate themselves as the only true communists/leftists to better spread their authoritarianism. And ofc they'd also hate anything that labels them properly and tries to downplay it, just like any other authoritarian
Like you
Sure Jan, sure lolol
I keep some lemmy.ml communities on my feed because it's refreshing to see news out of china that while likely propaganda, is at least not the usual flavor of propaganda.
When I read other countries' propaganda, it makes me realize how much US ruling class propaganda passes through unnoticed
Lemmy is strongly left-leaning and well you probably know the joke where two leftist enter a bar and 3 splinter groups come out.
My general advice is to instance block lemmy.ml and avoid the war in Palestine/Israel.
Lemmy.ml is the flagship instance of the authoritarian lemmy developers @[email protected] and @[email protected] and they unfortunately are not separating development and server administration. As Lemmy.ml is the oldest instance, many newbies think it is "the main Lemmy instance", way before they realize what the concept of federation means. ml's influence has weakened in the last years, but it's still influencing the discussion a lot. Check [email protected] to get an idea about ml.
You people are exhausting. What is authoritarian and please give examples of non-authoritarian states.
they are exhausting.
any state where you can get evicted by the cops for not paying rent is authoritarian
the act of overthrowing that situation is going to be authoritarian too.
i know which one i would prefer.
it's impossible to be free from authority while other competing states exist. in the name of self defense until every remaining capitalist state is overthrown any adversarial political economy is going to need to retain some level of authority
The problem with tankies specifically is that they cheer when their authoritarians do shit, like when they cheered in 1956, and again in 1989.
Both times tanks were rolled out to literally crush left wing uprisings against the pretend leftwing governments.
They cheer for Russia invading its neighbors.
At least most of us in the west are horrified about the shit our governments are doing. Tankies just cheer.
Here's a megathread on them
You'll get banned for showing support for Ukraine or going against Russian narratives or if you remind them of Putlers promise to not invade or just shit talking Putler in general
Or calling out propaganda sites - https://lemmy.world/post/32776038 | https://lemmy.world/post/33416433 | https://lemmy.world/post/34051329 | https://lemmy.world/post/35919522
Or so much more, I actually haven't updated the megathread in a few months, but there's more recent stuff on [email protected]
Not that you'll read any of it, since you are a tagged Tankie
In my opinion this is what kills the fediverse. When instances block other instances, you just fragment the whole thing. I think what is needed is a Proxy. What do I mean with that? I can host a read only instance. This way I can control what instances I want to access and which I want to block, but this instance doesn't host accounts or posts. I would still need an account with a regular instance. The proxy instance would allow multiple accounts at the same time, so you don't need to worry about to change accounts or URLs, just to see a few other communities.
The whole federation thing is quite neat, but you need so much information beforehand, to choose your "right" community. Of course there are some very isolated instances, that do get blocked by most regular instances, but between the regular instances, there are quite some differences. For example some instances forbid NSFW. Hetzner (server hoster) does not allow NSFW in their ToS and a while back, a lot of instances used Hetzner. Some instances got surprised by that, because they didn't read the ToS.
Also I have the fear that when some governments could make the life worse for instances and make them accountable for other instances, that you can access through their instance. As an example could be the age verification, that some countries do require now.
Lack of moderation and a flood of botnets and employed hostile actors is what could kill the fediverse, like what is happening with Twitter, Reddit, FaceBook, or YouTube.
Calling them dead or about to be killed, is a wide stretch. All of them do got some dips and people leaving these sites, but I don't see a big rush away, as the content is still there. With YouTube you don't have an alternative. With Twitter some went to Mastodon, some to Bluesky and some to Trump Twitter. Reddit is still doing good and Facebook... The whole concept is not doing well.
For all it's important, including fediverse is the content. Let just focus on Lemmy and Reddit. With Reddit you did have communities splitting of abusive mods. With Lemmy you suddenly have some general purpose communities on different instances and you need to figure out which one is worth following. Some communities quickly die off and they go back to reddit, as there are more users for that community. This alone is hurting whole Lemmy. When you then have somewhat active communities across different Instances, because they think, their instance is better or the other instances sucks, then you split the community more.
To survive you need content and active communities. Reddit still has a lot of that and Lemmy is trying to get more, but their design makes it hard to keep it together. Lemmy has just a few options to survive long term. Get more people and content, so the fragmentation doesn't play a huge role. Change the design, to prevent fragmentation or the users stop fighting and stop fragmenting the content and try to agree on one community and the others get deleted.
Stuff like Mastodon/Bluesky don't have such a huge problem, as it's about a single person and not a community.
YouTube MAU peaked in 2023 and long form videos are crashing down in views across the entire site.
Short form creators don't really make any money to begin with so they have no future on the platform.
How far it will fall, nobody knows, but if the equivalent happened to a smaller company it would be fatal.
But there is no big movement away. Yes creators do get less views and money, but I don't see a big movement of creators, nor viewers. Some big creators try to get the viewers back, that they lost because of the algorithm. They do create and use platforms like Floatplane or Nebula. Here in Germany some do go to the streaming sites of TV Networks. This isn't really solving the problem, as you switched from shitty YouTube to streaming fragmentation.
Bilibli apparently tries to go international and they do have the infrastructure to be an alternative. I use YouTube since 2008 and there was always people saying that their peak was a few years ago. I saw one try to move away from YouTube here in Germany. A lot of creators rushed to a platform, took viewers with them and started to upload their stuff there. The site couldn't handle the demand, quickly bought new hardware and what happend next? A lot of people walked back to YouTube. Creators didn't wanted to double upload and manage 2 sites and from a viewers perspective, not everyone switched, so they stayed where everyone was.
I saw so much the last years. People are always upset about changes and they always say they move but in the end, not much happens. People forget and with the next change, the whole thing repeats. There are no worthy alternatives. Some companies do try it, but it doesn't quite work out. Do you remember Facebook Gaming/Live? Do you remember Mixer? Both platforms that tried to replace twitch. Even YouTube tried to focus more on Game Streaming but failed. You still can stream on Youtube, but the whole YouTube Gaming thing is dead and never really took off.
To be honest, currently is a good time to try again to switch away from YouTube, as it really messed up a lot of stuff, because they focused more on short videos, than long videos. The other question is how long long videos do exist. Do they move more towards other platforms, like more classic vod streaming services (Netflix, Prime, Paramount, Disney, Discovery or streaming platforms of local TV stations) or do they try to fit more in the short video sector?
people kill the fediverse because they can't keep their insane beliefs to themselves, and feel compelled to harass and intimate anyone who doesn't share their beliefs.
including the incessant demonization of anyone who isn't as extreme as they are.
Different countries, different laws about free speech and expectations of free speech. Also different countries, different propaganda and their leaders/governments pushing certain agendas. Within their country, they are not wrong. A lot of centralized websites are US based and do follow US laws but you can't expect that the Internet follows US or EU laws and their culture. Obviously this creates problems and the thing is, that every country tries to fight it their own ways and try to push their agenda. One example would be the GDPR. Some US sites just geoblocked EU IPs, because they didn't want to deal with these laws, that aren't even from their country.
There's no specific instance wide feud between the two or anything. At a high level, .world is just the biggest Lemmy server currently by MAU and .ml is just the oldest and flagship ones run by the main developers of the Lemmy software.
Now, the moderation philosophy between the two differs a fair bit, which is where the rivalries and the bad blood develops between users. On most general topics you'd see very little difference, but as soon as discussion touches the Russia-Ukraine conflict, anything negative about China, and the Israel-Palestine war, the mods on ml are aggressively one-sided in their moderation, and consider anything that goes against that perception as hate-speech against Russia/China/Palestine even if that's not what you are saying. If you want an illustrative example, look in the modlog at the 'nazi apologia' comment I was tempbanned from ![email protected] for.
Still, as community and instance managers, that's their right. There's significant overlap between lemmy.ml, lemmygrad.ml where moderation is more overtly this way, and hexbear.net where users like to communicate with image macros more in ways that I think most other server members find annoying. Some on world don't like that so certain users crosspost discussions from ml communities onto world communities. Some users call the ml folks tankies for their disdain of violence committed everywhere except where committed by Russia, China and its allies. Some ml users (and many lemmygrad+hexbear users) call users on other servers libs for the converse reason, excusing or not pushing back hard enough on atrocities and oppression caused by Western governments. Some users like to generalize these characterizations to every user of an instance, it seems.
Aside from high profile defederations with ml or world and some servers for various reasons, refederations, redefederations between hexbear and other servers, there have not been any specific incidents that have caused .world and .ml to grow apart. I think it's fine to let each server have its space.
Thank you for taking the time to write this
What a one-sided, broad-sweeping view. 🤨
I find it's quite accurate.
Try going on a .world community and talking about the genocide of Palestinians then try going on a .ml community and try talking about the genocides of Ukraine and Uyghurs and get back to me.
Try looking at Gell-Mann amnesia, CIA meddling and psyops, psychological denial to the point of being unable to consider different perspectives and explanations and get back to me.
What are your views on the genocides of Ukrainians and the Uyghurs?
You've been offered our views multiple times and refused to consider for an instant. I'm not doing it again. You know where to find the information and reflect.
What are your views on the genocides of Ukrainians and the Uyghurs?
You've been offered our views multiple times and refused to consider for an instant. I'm not doing it again. You know where to find the information and reflect.
One other point on this I got a couple month instance ban from little spez on .ml for talking about the genocides of Ukrainians and the Uyghurs and I've never got one on .world for defending Palestine and talking shit about Israel
"Other people are bad so I can be bad, too!"
What are, fucking five?
Hey, I'm aware I have my own biases. I've tried to describe the situation in a fair and reasoned way as best I can, based off the experiences I've had over the last 3.5 years, including before lemmy.world even started, your experience may differ from mine and that's okay. I donate quarterly to the Lemmy devs and occasionally to my homeserver's foundation, so please feel free to accuse me of bias in either way.
Friend, I like you and what good are accusations without possible alternatives, which I offered in response to another post, here: https://kbin.earth/m/[email protected]/t/3291428/-/comment/15029715
.world is the generic reddit audience .ml is tankies
It's libs Vs commies on an instance level. And, with Lemmy being a Western online space, libs are more numerous. 👍
.ml admins are Tankies, they're authoritarian communists
As defined
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tankie
Here's a megathread on them
You'll get banned for showing support for Ukraine or going against Russian narratives or if you remind them of Putlers promise to not invade or just shit talking Putler in general
Or calling out propaganda sites - https://lemmy.world/post/32776038 | https://lemmy.world/post/33416433 | https://lemmy.world/post/34051329 | https://lemmy.world/post/35919522
Or so much more, I actually haven't updated the megathread in a few months, but there's more recent stuff on [email protected]
They’re not communists. They’re tankies: nationalistic authoritarians who defend police state brutality and “alternative facts” to spread disinformation courtesy of Russia and China. They’re obsessed with a west vs east dialectic.
Also, I don’t think you mean liberals strictly, but socialists — demsoc, socdem, anarchists, whatever.
Anarchists don’t respect nation states or arbitrary class divisions, which clashes hard with tankies’ rabid nationalism.
i don't see it as east/west tribalism or nationalism at play, it's generally people identifying what they see as a lesser evil in the situation. when it's not interactions with hostile liberals i see plenty of earnest discussion in these spaces, literally 'putin is someone lenin would have had shot'.
for me if i'm referring to liberals it's anyone with a reformist orientation towards capitalism. if people are pushing that then they are more likely to compromise on important issues if given any individual power
MLs share my analysis of capitalism and imperialism. i can have disagreements with them about organization and process while agreeing on the fundamentals. plus they won’t call the cops on me.
with liberals half the time i’m arguing about whether capitalism is even the problem, or having to point out to them that war is actually bad. that’s a much bigger gap than disagreeing about revolutionary strategy.
Having strong opinions about reforming vs overthrowing capitalism doesn’t make you a tankie. Defending Russian and Chinese totalitarianism does.
isn't this just the tribalism that you were just complaining about? every state is authoritarian and has plenty state violence, if i'm going to have issues with that it's going to be with the states i actually live in.
not wanting to engage with propaganda narratives about state enemies from my own state doesn't mean it's automatically a defense of what other states are doing
Tankies defend Russian and Chinese dictatorships in particular. Interestingly, they don’t defend (and even condemn) other dictatorships. This is a feature of their tribalistic ideology.
then we share a position that all states are bad; i have particular ire for ones that are outright dictatorships of capital. that includes the US, all of its allies and some of its enemies.
i live in the US, so i am going to be loudest about about what my state is doing internally and what it's sponsoring abroad. i am going to treat the propaganda narratives it produces about its enemies with suspicion, and that should not be construed with 'defending' anything.
it often does though.
You seem to constantly be ignoring the fact that tankies are specifically hypocrites about it. We all KNOW tankies will say left wing opinions in the general sense.
The problem is they don't apply leftist morals to EVERYONE. They have pet beliefs and often a favorite communist/anarchist dictator that they'll actively defend.
Why would you even care about the opinions of someone that cannot understand that supporting any dictator basically by definition removes you from many ideologies of the left??
We shouldn't suffer hypocrites. If something is bad because the act is bad, it's bad when ANYONE does it. Period.
We can discuss what bad acts may be necessary to recover things from the tyrants in charge and the worthiness of such acts, but to pretend that things like indiscriminate mass murder and open war are somehow good actually is to completely fail the moral test, IMO.
Basically... they're people who fail the logic of, "two wrongs don't make a right". Or a more direct expression, "the ends don't justify the means".
They're exactly like conservatives in that they don't care about others and are actually glad when the "correct" people are hurt.
No you libtard! Marx wanted name calling and calls for slaughter of entire nations.
Remember, ever threatening and ever weak and disgusting enemy is the base idea behind communism.
What of authoritarian? Can you give examples of states that aren't?
Russia’s favorite propaganda is to claim that democracy is impossible because state violence is universal. They don’t deny their own wrongdoing (the way China does): they embrace it with whataboutism.
Saying “all states are authoritarian” is meaningless. Of course all statehood is based in violence. Yet clearly citizens of Taiwan and China have different relationships with their governments.
To whit, I have no rights in China. They could disappear me for this one comment.
Hysteria isn't a good look. Unless your family are wealthy corrupt.
Don't believe a word of this, it was all hyped up by Big Fedi to drive up clicks
CI@ spy op
World and ML are two peas in a pod. The World moderators won't punish you for fighting with Tankies but they do monetarily support ML, and likewise ML developers own the Lemmy landing site which sends people to World.
My advice is to avoid Lemmy frontend whenever possible. Its maintainers are the owners of ML and really horrible Tankies, and most if not all instances who use Lemmy frontend support them directly.
For more info about that check out the the Documentation of Extremism Megathread from the ![email protected] comm.
The world admins pay the Lemmy devs?
The lemmy.world admins ask for donations to lemmy's developers and a chunk of that goes to running the .ml server.
Correct, before I moved to Piefed I confronted them about the donation banner the Lemmy devs ship with updates and the moderator on the Lemmy World support comm, in a round about way, admitted as much.
https://lemmy.world/post/40585627/21160546
It's over blown tribalism imo. There's a handful of accounts that are always fighting each other. The rest are just normal people.
That sub is ran by people with a serious agenda. Its like the propaganda farm of lemmy. The mods beg you to stop reporting outright disinformation and the users are argumentative for no reason and aim to radicalize people of both persuasions.
"The only acceptable propaganda is Fourteen Eyes propaganda!" 🤡
Are you one of those super motivated users there with a serious agenda? It seems like it with how much you've come in trying to flip tables on this thread.
https://kbin.earth/m/[email protected]/t/3276898/Megathread-for-the-US-war-on-Iran-Week-42-of#comments
I'm not clicking your link loser
In the beginning there was lemmy.ml only, BTW no one mentioned it but the dev choose .ml because "Marxism–Leninism". It is a far-left guy with far-left ideology.
When reddit blocked its APIs a few years ago, a lot of people went to "lemmy" and a lot of new instance were created, like lemmy.world, which is not far-left, so a lot of people joined it.
They chose .ml because it was a free domain at the time.
Be mindful that it's often just a handful accounts that post this stuff.
Well, alright, it's actually 36 accounts with the username "cm0002", but you get the idea.
Yup, it's just me who stands against .mls authoritarianism lmao
::: spoiler Why am I cross-posting .ml content?
The only authoritarian is you.
Thanks! I'm always down for a good laugh!
🤡
🪞
https://kbin.earth/m/[email protected]/t/3276898/Megathread-for-the-US-war-on-Iran-Week-42-of#comments
Ok andddd what does that have to do with me, lemmy, .ml admins or Tankies?
Schismogenesis: two groups that perceive themselves as rivals will tend to amplify and identify with whatever initial differences they have.
til
Yeah, a lot of online communities are like that.
There is no ‘deal’
There are some extremely active and vocal users on .ml that have a specific view point that they feel is extremely important.
You will see that viewpoint expressed not just on political posts, but in the comments of seemingly unrelated topics.
It seems that .ml was defederated from world to keep some separation of that view point and other topics.
You are still fully free to join any instance you want. You can even find community here to post that content if you wish, but there is a more active and vibrant community on .ml for that content.
.ml is still federated with .world
are you thinking of hexbear.net or lemmygrad.ml ?
Admins of .ml promote and enforce authoritarianism here's a megathread on them
You'll get banned for showing support for Ukraine or going against Russian narratives or if you remind them of Putlers promise to not invade or just shit talking Putler in general
Or calling out propaganda sites - https://lemmy.world/post/32776038 | https://lemmy.world/post/33416433 | https://lemmy.world/post/34051329 | https://lemmy.world/post/35919522
Or so much more, I actually haven't updated the megathread in a few months, but there's more recent stuff on [email protected]
.ml was PREEMPTIVELY defederated. Politics affects everything.
.ml is the old instance from before Reddit exodus and it's full of tankies and the weirdest takes you've ever seen (cue replies).
.world is the new popular instance.
That's about it. Some people read into it that ml users are upset that they are no longer the default instance and can't control the narrative. While world just doesn't care and keeps on trucking. Who knows.
Dishonest much?
I'm glad to know it's owned by a non-profit, that means it's tax free, like certain churches, and it's definitely full of Zionists, with Zionist talking points.
Only thing I know is someone has a bug up their craw about .ml and made a bunch of accounts to repost .ml stuff to .world. It was kinda a good thing because I think this user is part of the reason my attitude toward blocking being an overall good thing evolved. I mean I realized it before from mmo chats but I think it kinda solidifed it for me. Other than that there is grousing from folks but overall I just block communities im not interested in and users that interact in ways im not cool with.
Yea, standing against authoritarian propaganda is just a "bug up my craw" lmao
Admins of .ml promote and enforce authoritarianism here's a megathread on them
You'll get banned for showing support for Ukraine or going against Russian narratives or if you remind them of Putlers promise to not invade or just shit talking Putler in general
Or calling out propaganda sites - https://lemmy.world/post/32776038 | https://lemmy.world/post/33416433 | https://lemmy.world/post/34051329 | https://lemmy.world/post/35919522
Or so much more, I actually haven't updated the megathread in a few months, but there's more recent stuff on [email protected]
I know nothing about any of this. I’m on PieFed/feddit.online. I don’t even know if there’s bad stuff here or they’re blocking content/instances. I like the fediverse but sometime I feel lost and confused when I see posts like this. What am I missing here?
piefed is heavily filtered by default. you have to turn the filters off.
the PieFed people have their own weird agenda they push. They want things to be Disneyfied and 'positive vibes only'. it's not so much political per se, but they want to socially engineer user behavior in a way lemmy does not.
piefed blocking tools are superior to lemmy ones though.
Both of your instances are the worst, full of nuts with terrible takes. Really not sure which one I dislike more. I should probably block .world and .ml, but then my Lemmy would be empty :(.
The feud started when they killed Rosa a hundred years ago and we've been arguing about it since /s.
But seriously, it is essentially the same, age old disagreement between social democrats and Marxists, which essentially comes down to this. Social democrats are committed to working within existing systems, which means their views have to be compatible with what is allowed in the existing system. Marxists, on the other hand, are committed to international solidarity first and foremost. That means we won't sell out a group to win an election. Because the ruling class does not want to allow international solidarity to form, they will inevitably force the issue, and limit the scope of acceptable views such that you have to betray foreign members of the working class in order to work within the system.
This is exactly what happened back in WWI. Before that, social democrats had pledged to support international solidarity and to oppose war, but when war broke out, the ruling class of each country put pressure on every party to support the war, and the social democrats fell in line and failed to organize any coordinated, international effort to stop or even oppose the war. Those who tried to, and took a more radical stance, were accused of all the things we're accused of today: of being Russian spies, of supporting the other side (and thereby being "authoritarian"), of just trying to forment chaos or let the right win, etc, it's all the same rhetoric just updated to the modern day.
Of course, there are many users on both instances who don't fit in those respective sides, including people who aren't really interested in the politics and just wind up caught in the crossfire as people make assumptions based on their instance.
Lemmy world is probably owned by a corporation. Since they're the largest instance, they can control the hot page. ML is ran by the original developers of lemmy. They are full of pro communism accounts. I'll let you decide if that's cool.
Lemmy World definitely curates (shadow bans) people's feed. ML probably does too.
If you're not that political, don't worry about it.
Anything more on the shadow banning? I did catch my account being shadow banned on another instance (not world or ml).
I think the community would turn quickly against any big instance shadow banning folk. That's what the tesseract mess was about.
Yeah, it's been proven to me over and over again. I post a lot of politics and some never get seen. Sometimes it's a lag in the federation, but a lot of times it's not.
Also, I was originally with world and one particular admin, who is still there, was removing comments and also curating in the beginning. That's why I'm no longer there. He sent some shitty messages complaining that I removed all of my content. I'm not the first to complain, but world keeps him. That should tell you something.
It's disappointing. Most people would probably ever know. As I said, I post a lot, so it's more obvious.
Edit: Right now, my feed is being stopped from seeing the second page or autoscrolling. I had to find another way to see this post.
Admins of .ml promote and enforce authoritarianism here's a megathread on them
They're authoritarian communists AKA Tankies as defined https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tankie
You'll get banned for showing support for Ukraine or going against Russian narratives or if you remind them of Putlers promise to not invade or just shit talking Putler in general
Or calling out propaganda sites - https://lemmy.world/post/32776038 | https://lemmy.world/post/33416433 | https://lemmy.world/post/34051329 | https://lemmy.world/post/35919522
Or so much more, I actually haven't updated the megathread in a few months, but there's more recent stuff on [email protected]
You sound unwell.
Documents authoritarianism
Tankies: YOU'RE SICK
The sickness is thinking yours is morally superior
Yea documenting and presenting evidence for something distasteful someone or a group is doing is "morally superior thinking" XD
Like this: https://kbin.earth/m/[email protected]/t/3276898/Megathread-for-the-US-war-on-Iran-Week-42-of#comments
Ok andddd what does that have to do with me, lemmy, .ml admins or Tankies?
it's news to me if it does, got any example?
I don't. They are so militant about communism, that I wouldn't be surprised. They might be just a more open sort of banning. I remember people complaining when I first got here that they were banned for mentioning Tienanmen square and other things like that. I have no personal experience. That's why I said probably.
i will say that based on the people i've interacted with that have been banned from here, i am glad that i'm not seeing their posts in my feed. one example being the guy who cross-posts 100% of content from .ml to .world, having him blocked on all his n+1 alts means i don't have to deal with duplicates in my feed.
from my experience usually people doing things like 'mentioning tiananmen square' are doing more than just that, often they throw in an insult while redbaiting or dehumanizing. they then go to rend their garments in their preferred hugbox about how censored they were by the evil tankies.
Yeah, maybe? I've stayed away.
i mean it's up to you if you believe me or not, i'm just relating my experience from this perspective.
No. It is owned by a nonprofit set up for the purpose. The person that started it brought on a few volunteers (like me) to help out. We depend on donations, and receive some recurring and one-off donations. Every few months or so, we post a short request for more donations as the donations dip below the monthly costs, and that seems to keep us going.
I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "curates" / "shadowbans", so I won't directly comment on that. But a large part of the reason I was brought on was to have another person looking out for spam and such.
Well, okay, you can make up whatever you want to believe, I guess.
I could say the same for you, lol.
If you are here for fun, trolling people from .ml is both easy and invigorating, as they take themselves very serious, lack a sense of humor and get enraged about almost anything. I had great success with mentioning Palestine, Putin and I even got banned FOR LIFE from a community for defending the POLICE (hahaha 1:0 for me!) The discussions went on and on, you do need a skin as thick as a MAGA, but it is very rewarding… as thick as Putin’s butt after riding his bear I should say, to stay in my role. And they don’t use deodorant rumor has it.
Thank you for defending Sting and sus muchachos.
Not everyone lives on Lemmy and/or lets internet drama live rent-free in their head. I’ve been on here a while and I’m only vaguely aware of inter-instance drama. I know everyone hates .ml, but like OP I’m not sure why. So, maybe, don’t be a dick?
As an aside, do you remember the days of ![email protected]? I think there were a solid chunk of people on Lemmy that lived for the 'net drama, grudges, trolling, flamewars and squabbling between instances, users and everyone in between.
It was petty more often than not, but I won't lie, sometimes those threads got kind of interesting to me.
.world is less crazy/extremist than .ml generally.
still, the majority of the lemmy/fedi userbase skews far left idealism, and is 100% comfortable with extremist opinions of using violence and mass coercion and demonization of anyone who doesn't believe like they do. many users here also actively deny reality and history, if you take a more facts-based approach to life you're going to get targeted a lot here as an evil doer.
According to .ml you are Zionist unless you don't support the extermination of Israeli and Israelis. accord to .world you're a Zionist if you don't support the expulsion of Jewish people from Palestine and the dissolution of the Jewish state. both are pretty far-out there opinions, but again most users here are extremists or one flavor or another.
if you aren't a far-leftism foaming about the mouth about mass murder of your political opponents you're going ot find it trying to be here for long. unless you're just indifference to the hostility you will encounter, or systematically block people who tell you to die for having a different opinion or even acknowledge the existence of different opinions, than they hold.
TIL
I’ve been here for a while, where did you catch these notions? I feel like there’s this Friday night after work drinks I’ve never been to, so I missed out on all the office gos.
they really pulled them out of their ass from what i can tell. easier to argue against caricatures than real people
I can't even respond to them and expect a reply because i'm instance banned from piefed.social (rimu doesn't like me, got banned around the time of this post )
Dude, same. This isn’t the fourth time I’ve seen posts like yours and comments. I’m having a ok time here (slow activity) looking at Star Trek memes and self hosting but everything else is just meh post topics or RSS. Not sure where all this other stuff is happening.
just because you personally don't see it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
log out and browse an all feed and click in a couple a couple of pages from the top, and you will see a lot of crazy shit.
if you only see what you subscribe to, yeah you won't see any weird and crazy shit on here. hell, go into any news community on .ml and 90% of the comments are 'death to america!' kind of shit.
I've been here for over three years. I left reddit in like '22, before it was cool to leave reddit.
it was a lot more chill a year or two ago, the reddit refugees who have come here recent have brought a lot of their toxicity and intolerance with them, and a lot of them have started a lot of communities where, like reddit today, the easiest way to get banned is disagreement with a moderator/admins personal opinions.
the easiest way to not have a terrible time here is to block incessently, and block entire instances where you can. i have about 5 instances blocked, and 100s of users blocked. it cuts down my content by like 70% probably, but I'm not interested in kind of content those communities/users post incessantly, which is mostly inflammatory rage bait and victimhood self-pity nonsense. and the personal harassment I get is fairly limited compared to when I dind't block .ml and a few other instances that are basically ideologically extremist.