I feel like the odd one loving keyboard and mouse for every type of game. (And I mostly play third person... shooter?I don't know what is dark souls? And also platformers/Metroidvania)
I love the Valve hardware stuff with touch sensitive sticks and trackpads. Deactivating gyro when lifting your thumb just feels so natural! Other manufacturers should at least implement this for the sticks
Takes some practice if you've never used them and you have to fiddle with the config quite a bit. But it's so worth it once it clicks! First thing I do with a new game is take 10 minutes to set up gyro aiming to my liking.
I usually spend a while messing around with all the controls to get them perfect =w= like 15-30 minutes.. and then usually mess around with it more a few hours in
But yeah, I usually use gyro always on, with suppress gyro on the square button, so.. im curious how it would be with the capacitive set up, or if I'd like it at all :3
Yeah, I put a lot of hours into learning all the ins and outs of steam input at this point :3, I've been playing with gyro for a couple of years lol. Honestly I had some games where I had more fun setting up my controller configs than actually playing
But at this point im just constantly checking for the email from steam so I can try out all the new cool features of the steam controller, even if I know my order is not gonna be ready any time soon =w=
Yeah it took me a couple of weeks and basically trying a bunch of options to get used to it.. as well as playing multiple games with pretty different mechanics so I could essentially practice for all of them. Though now I have the opposite issue where I can't get used to analog stick aim lol.. which isn't a major issue for me as I don't own any systems where I'd have to deal with it, but it does have some sort of irony about it :3
Played Death Stranding 2 like that and it was a godsend. I really wish more controllers than just Joycons and DualSense would have good motion sensing.
There's a lot of controllers I see people using for gyro :3 gamesir and 8bitdo ones seem popular, and there's also the inputlabs ones.. oh and the steam controller of course, as well as the switch pro controller since you mentioned just the joycons :3
I mean, I've not tried any of them (including joycons and the dual sense, I have a dualshock 4 lol) so I can't say how the gyro on them is, but those are the ones I see people use, so they're at least decent I imagine
I've not played splatoon, but I know a lot of players there use gyro :3.. and nintendo in general is more gyro forward than playstation (and xbox is not even in the convo lol). I play on PC these days cause it's nice being able to set up my controller how I want with third party input remappers, feels a lot less limited :3
I stopped gaming as an adult, and grew up too poor to ever have a gaming device that uses a keyboard. So as an old person that got back into gaming a tiny little bit, using a keyboard actually is so terrible I would rather just not game if that was the only option.
But also, the types of games I would play aren't the types of games that would work well with a keyboard. Not to yuck anybody's yum, but most of the stuff that works better with keyboards, is just a yuck for me.
Bro what? You can literally take almost any controller and it probably works in a PC. If it's Xbox, even very old, it works extremely well. You don't need a console, or any special hardware to use a controller. You didn't even need a good PC.
If the person you’re replying to is older than 30, this wasn’t the case for a good portion of their life. The family computer might have had some games on it, but mostly you fired up the console with its special built controller to play games
Are consoles cheaper than PC? I'm not that old but PC and laptops, the former mostly, were more common and I learned to play using the keyboard, although after using the steam deck for a while the controller is much superior and fun
today, mostly, but in the past they used to be much cheaper than pc's. in the 90s a new 486 with a graphics card and hdd could be $1500, plus display. a SNES was $200. adjust both of those prices wildly upward for inflation.
This is pretty much why I went full netrunner with a side of tech sniper. No need for twitch reaction when the game is effectively slow motion in combat.
Nah, controllers are fine for aiming, just not in competitive PvP with crossplay. Even without any kind of auto-aiming or gyro you learn to use both sticks for it (with some game setting changes, depending on the game).
Oceangate fucked up and used the 710. Very possible the wireless signal got messed up and it sent the signal to implode instead of surface. The 310 is wired and wouldn't have that problem.
Afaik all Logitech controllers use a somewhat different tech for the analog sticks than what PS and Xbox controllers use. As a result, the inputs are less precise (with smaller total range of values), but stick drift in particular is either very rare in comparison, or doesn't affect them at all.
In my anecdotal case, I have two wired Logitech controllers, both possibly fifteen years old, neither have problems with sticks. Even after I spilled beer on the one I currently use and am neglecting to clean it properly for half a year so far.
I have had my 310 since launch and it's the most solid controller I have. I used it heavily until I got my PS5 a few years ago and it has 0 drift and no other issues, other than being wired so it's not easy to use from across the room.
Keyboard doesn't suck that much for driving but it's way worse for precision movement for platformers and top-down action games. And obviously "twin stick shooters".
Solution is those MMO joystick controllers that have a bunch of buttons and a joystick for your thumb. I've always wanted one but I know from my Steam controller experience that setting it up for each game individually is a total pain.
The problem with keyboard driving in most setups is that the turning is either on or off. So you can’t make smooth movement. You have to do that tapping shit to keep the car straight. Also the accelerator is either 0 or 100.
On control with analog and trigger have different levels of sensitivity allowing for granular controls.
I know that now a days there are some keyboard switches that have this, but it’s far from the standard.
Yeah I played the hell out of games like Need For Speed Hot Pursuit and Porsche Unleashed on keyboard, and I don't miss the tapping. Analog sticks aren't perfect but they're so much better than on/off keys IMO.
Analog switches have gotten downright affordable on keyboards these days, for what it's worth. I saw one for $70 the other day. I'll try and find a link if anyone is interested.
MissMikkaa beat two instances of Elden Ring simultaneously, one on controller, and the other on a dance pad. I feel like someone will manage to do it with anything at this point.
You've got better chances looking for split keyboards where some has dual mouse functions. They look like overgrown ergonomic mice with a bunch of extra buttons, and some add joysticks
Mouse and Keyboard players always believe they can fly just as well as Gamepad/Controller players (they can't) and simultaneously assume that because they suck with a Gamepad that nobody else can play a shooter competitively with a Gamepad against Mouse and Keyboard players.... which with Gyro aim is wrong.
I have thousands of hours of playing competitive shooters with my steam deck using onboard joysticks along with gyro, the limiting factor is I am playing on a potato with a small screen and limited framerate, it is rarely if ever an issue of aim and in some ways my ability to aim easily outclasses Mouse and Keyboard, for one I don't have to ever pick up the mouse and move it, major consistent rotations with joysticks is natural and easy.
To make the point a fine one because people are often annoying about this, I have played many hours of Xonotic using gyro aim and while I am by no means a top tier Xonotic player with the max framerate the Steam Deck goes taken into account I can play very fast paced and competitively. Any game you say "but what about!?" or shooter genre you try to say that Joysticks + Gyro isn't good enough for is easier to play well than Xonotic.
It is functional, but turn off all of the assist and you'll notice how much you'll miss.
I play The Finals on controller, and maintained a top 0.1% position on the Power Shift leaderboard for 6 seasons straight with all the aim assist options completely disabled in mixed-input lobbies. I keep it turned off partially to prove a point - that raw controller input is competitively viable if you put in the work - and partially because the aim assist pulls toward the chest/center-mass and I like to aim for the head, so my aim is actually worse with aim assist turned on. I also manage to do this because The Finals has the best controller-tuning options I've ever seen in an FPS.
Game sense/awareness is much more important than your input method. Switching from controller to KbM doesn't make you a better player; it might make your aim better, but aim is only one small piece of what makes a player "good" at a game. Knowing the layout of the maps and what routes you can exploit, understanding the game mechanics and game mode objective, predicting player behaviors, communication, mind-games, adaptability... any one of these can make up for poor aim. This applies to any game.
But even if aim is the only thing you're concerned about, you can still aim-train on controller. It's different, sure. But practice is still practice; if you put in the work, you will get results.
The best input method is always going to be the one you're most comfortable with.
In shooters, the best mouse players will always beat the best controller players. There's a reason aim assist has basically become auto aim on consoles now.
It's perfectly acceptable for different input methods to be better for different genres of games. It doesn't mean you can't use a "suboptimal" method and not get great success with it, that's not what people are saying. You should ultimately use what is comfortable for you.
101 replies
Por que no los dos?
I feel like the odd one loving keyboard and mouse for every type of game. (And I mostly play third person... shooter?I don't know what is dark souls? And also platformers/Metroidvania)
Trackmania players entered the chat
If you're not using a ddr mat are you even a gamer
It works well for Bomberman Generation
Sucks in general. Mushy ass keyboard.
MUSHY?? Get a better keyboard, dude. There's 5000000 different key switches to choose from
Like using Temu as evidence that controllers suck
I think he's talking about the specific keyboard pictured, in which case, yes, that one very much does suck.
Me in an endless loop of swiping my mouse across the mousepad while engaged in a dogfight in Star Wars: X-Wing:
I never played that but do they maneuver like aifllanes? If yes I would bind „nose up“ to a second input (on keyboard)
Wasn’t there a dude who played Call Of Duty with a flute? I cont find the video and it used to crack me up.
https://youtu.be/h58m7PaSaLc
Here you go
YOU ARE SO AWESOME
Was it the right video?
Yup!!!
Gyro aim really helps with shooting on controllers :3 I can't play games without setting that up these days
I love the Valve hardware stuff with touch sensitive sticks and trackpads. Deactivating gyro when lifting your thumb just feels so natural! Other manufacturers should at least implement this for the sticks
Im still waiting for my steam controller :((( cries in 2027 queue
I do want to try out the capacitive sticks and grips tho
Takes some practice if you've never used them and you have to fiddle with the config quite a bit. But it's so worth it once it clicks! First thing I do with a new game is take 10 minutes to set up gyro aiming to my liking.
10 minutes is quicker than I usually do it lol
I usually spend a while messing around with all the controls to get them perfect =w= like 15-30 minutes.. and then usually mess around with it more a few hours in
But yeah, I usually use gyro always on, with suppress gyro on the square button, so.. im curious how it would be with the capacitive set up, or if I'd like it at all :3
Oh well, if you're already familiar with steams controller config and gyro, I think you'll like it a lot!
Yeah, I put a lot of hours into learning all the ins and outs of steam input at this point :3, I've been playing with gyro for a couple of years lol. Honestly I had some games where I had more fun setting up my controller configs than actually playing
But at this point im just constantly checking for the email from steam so I can try out all the new cool features of the steam controller, even if I know my order is not gonna be ready any time soon =w=
I have tried so many times, I just can't get used to it.
Yeah it took me a couple of weeks and basically trying a bunch of options to get used to it.. as well as playing multiple games with pretty different mechanics so I could essentially practice for all of them. Though now I have the opposite issue where I can't get used to analog stick aim lol.. which isn't a major issue for me as I don't own any systems where I'd have to deal with it, but it does have some sort of irony about it :3
Fiiiine, I'll try again!
Played Death Stranding 2 like that and it was a godsend. I really wish more controllers than just Joycons and DualSense would have good motion sensing.
There's a lot of controllers I see people using for gyro :3 gamesir and 8bitdo ones seem popular, and there's also the inputlabs ones.. oh and the steam controller of course, as well as the switch pro controller since you mentioned just the joycons :3
I mean, I've not tried any of them (including joycons and the dual sense, I have a dualshock 4 lol) so I can't say how the gyro on them is, but those are the ones I see people use, so they're at least decent I imagine
Oh nice, looks like i have a few more to check out then
Yes, I very much agree, I was shocked how good gyro flicking with a sniper felt on Splatoon
I've not played splatoon, but I know a lot of players there use gyro :3.. and nintendo in general is more gyro forward than playstation (and xbox is not even in the convo lol). I play on PC these days cause it's nice being able to set up my controller how I want with third party input remappers, feels a lot less limited :3
I stopped gaming as an adult, and grew up too poor to ever have a gaming device that uses a keyboard. So as an old person that got back into gaming a tiny little bit, using a keyboard actually is so terrible I would rather just not game if that was the only option.
But also, the types of games I would play aren't the types of games that would work well with a keyboard. Not to yuck anybody's yum, but most of the stuff that works better with keyboards, is just a yuck for me.
Bro what? You can literally take almost any controller and it probably works in a PC. If it's Xbox, even very old, it works extremely well. You don't need a console, or any special hardware to use a controller. You didn't even need a good PC.
If the person you’re replying to is older than 30, this wasn’t the case for a good portion of their life. The family computer might have had some games on it, but mostly you fired up the console with its special built controller to play games
This, I use an Xbox series x controller (Microsoft) on my Linux gaming PC. Works well. xpadneo driver
Are consoles cheaper than PC? I'm not that old but PC and laptops, the former mostly, were more common and I learned to play using the keyboard, although after using the steam deck for a while the controller is much superior and fun
Are consoles cheaper than PC?
today, mostly, but in the past they used to be much cheaper than pc's. in the 90s a new 486 with a graphics card and hdd could be $1500, plus display. a SNES was $200. adjust both of those prices wildly upward for inflation.
What an incredibly bizarre take. How do you interact with computers then? Telepathically?
Typing and playing games use keyboards in vastly different ways
This is why you choose Bongos as a controller.
There was a game at agdq this year where they did that but I can't find the video
Taiko no Tatsujin?
Not really a bongo though. More like a Taiko.
No they were bongos https://youtu.be/-5KouewtbIo?is=nojHrE-fXTJQTVVD
Thank you, found it https://youtu.be/-5KouewtbIo?is=nojHrE-fXTJQTVVD
Perfectly explains my Cyberpunk2077 dilemma. I want to FPS with keyboard and drive with controller.
I did this on my PC when playing Last of Us. I used controller for everything but then just used keyboard/mouse when having to aim and shoot.
You can just do that? Even if you were speedrunning you could probably switch from KB to pad or viceversa in the time the animation completes
Yeah this is how I play GTA
This is pretty much why I went full netrunner with a side of tech sniper. No need for twitch reaction when the game is effectively slow motion in combat.
Honestly doesn't matter the build, by mid game you're gonna be tough enough to handle some aiming imperfection. Late game you're practically a God.
Maybe you could set up gyro motion controls with your controller.
Isn't there separate mapping for walking and driving control that will let you do that?
I can hot swap in cyberpunk. Im just saying I relate to the content of the OP.
Nah, controllers are fine for aiming, just not in competitive PvP with crossplay. Even without any kind of auto-aiming or gyro you learn to use both sticks for it (with some game setting changes, depending on the game).
"They're fine, except for the moment they're compared to the other thing"
Which is best for submarines?
Logitech F310.
Oceangate fucked up and used the 710. Very possible the wireless signal got messed up and it sent the signal to implode instead of surface. The 310 is wired and wouldn't have that problem.
The implosion happened because someone entered the Konami code that made the sub about 50 times more heavy
Somebody enabled wallclipping
The F710 isn't without its faults. It uses potentiometers in the joysticks instead of Hall effect or TMR. Stick drift kills.
Afaik all Logitech controllers use a somewhat different tech for the analog sticks than what PS and Xbox controllers use. As a result, the inputs are less precise (with smaller total range of values), but stick drift in particular is either very rare in comparison, or doesn't affect them at all.
In my anecdotal case, I have two wired Logitech controllers, both possibly fifteen years old, neither have problems with sticks. Even after I spilled beer on the one I currently use and am neglecting to clean it properly for half a year so far.
I have had my 310 since launch and it's the most solid controller I have. I used it heavily until I got my PS5 a few years ago and it has 0 drift and no other issues, other than being wired so it's not easy to use from across the room.
Keyboard doesn't suck that much for driving but it's way worse for precision movement for platformers and top-down action games. And obviously "twin stick shooters".
Solution is those MMO joystick controllers that have a bunch of buttons and a joystick for your thumb. I've always wanted one but I know from my Steam controller experience that setting it up for each game individually is a total pain.
The problem with keyboard driving in most setups is that the turning is either on or off. So you can’t make smooth movement. You have to do that tapping shit to keep the car straight. Also the accelerator is either 0 or 100.
On control with analog and trigger have different levels of sensitivity allowing for granular controls.
I know that now a days there are some keyboard switches that have this, but it’s far from the standard.
If you can't do PWM with your fingers, then that's a skill issue :)
Doing full QAM over here
You're absolutely right.
Meanwhile, TrackMania pros:
Yeah I played the hell out of games like Need For Speed Hot Pursuit and Porsche Unleashed on keyboard, and I don't miss the tapping. Analog sticks aren't perfect but they're so much better than on/off keys IMO.
Analog switches have gotten downright affordable on keyboards these days, for what it's worth. I saw one for $70 the other day. I'll try and find a link if anyone is interested.
Nah bro, use your tongue
Thanks, I hate it.
Yeah, but mrs_bereavement loves it.
Nothing beats a dedicated shooting controller though, if you have enough range time in
Rubber domes 🤢
True, though you can get used to either. And if you aren't playing competitively, your comfort is the only thing that really matters
Both suck for driving. Get a wheel.
The wheel is downright dogshit at shooting, though.
I’m going to go out on a limb here and assume that they’re complaining bc a lot of games have both.
Analog keyboards give you the best of both worlds theoretically.
Is there such a thing available commercially?
Sure:
Hall Effect keyboards are available.
My mouse has a very bad double clicking problem so before I have another electronics parts order and can order switches with it.
I use a drawing pad and pen for counterstrike now lol.
Or Subnautica with a bike
...Or Dark Souls with a baby toy in a blender
A friend of mine once tried to play GoldenEye on a steering wheel controller with pedals. I wasn't there for it but supposedly it didn't go well.
I mean someone beat Dark Souls using the DK bongos
MissMikkaa beat two instances of Elden Ring simultaneously, one on controller, and the other on a dance pad. I feel like someone will manage to do it with anything at this point.
Lol there has to be some challenges on YouTube like that. I bet they are fun to watch. Like the bunny that defeated the cathedral beast on a DDR pad.
I really like the one where a guy beat a Dark Souls boss with the Rock Band drum set
Amen.
Has anyone thought to make a mechanical keyboard, with a joystick and arcade buttons to each side? Would be a cool keyboard combo for both worlds.
You've got better chances looking for split keyboards where some has dual mouse functions. They look like overgrown ergonomic mice with a bunch of extra buttons, and some add joysticks
Like the Gamecube keyboard controller made by ascii?
YES!!! My gosh, I think this is the one my mind was trying to remember.
I have always wanted that keyboard, since I was a kid.
I'm thinking similarly to that, but with a more flat arcade pad sort of design, so you don't have to lift the keyboard to play.
So, there’s these newer style “hall-effect” keyboards that use magnets to detect how far you’ve pressed the key in.
So if you wanted you could map throttle to the spacebar and control speed by how hard you press the key.
Doesn’t completely solve the driving issue but it’s a step.
Mouse and Keyboard players always believe they can fly just as well as Gamepad/Controller players (they can't) and simultaneously assume that because they suck with a Gamepad that nobody else can play a shooter competitively with a Gamepad against Mouse and Keyboard players.... which with Gyro aim is wrong.
I have thousands of hours of playing competitive shooters with my steam deck using onboard joysticks along with gyro, the limiting factor is I am playing on a potato with a small screen and limited framerate, it is rarely if ever an issue of aim and in some ways my ability to aim easily outclasses Mouse and Keyboard, for one I don't have to ever pick up the mouse and move it, major consistent rotations with joysticks is natural and easy.
To make the point a fine one because people are often annoying about this, I have played many hours of Xonotic using gyro aim and while I am by no means a top tier Xonotic player with the max framerate the Steam Deck goes taken into account I can play very fast paced and competitively. Any game you say "but what about!?" or shooter genre you try to say that Joysticks + Gyro isn't good enough for is easier to play well than Xonotic.
https://xonotic.org/
an example
https://sopuli.xyz/post/6997508
We all know how professional gamepad gamers aim.
They keep spamming zoom just so they can abuse the aim assist and not have to aim themselves.
Or they move their entire character in order to line up a shot.
It is functional, but turn off all of the assist and you'll notice how much you'll miss.
I play The Finals on controller, and maintained a top 0.1% position on the Power Shift leaderboard for 6 seasons straight with all the aim assist options completely disabled in mixed-input lobbies. I keep it turned off partially to prove a point - that raw controller input is competitively viable if you put in the work - and partially because the aim assist pulls toward the chest/center-mass and I like to aim for the head, so my aim is actually worse with aim assist turned on. I also manage to do this because The Finals has the best controller-tuning options I've ever seen in an FPS.
Game sense/awareness is much more important than your input method. Switching from controller to KbM doesn't make you a better player; it might make your aim better, but aim is only one small piece of what makes a player "good" at a game. Knowing the layout of the maps and what routes you can exploit, understanding the game mechanics and game mode objective, predicting player behaviors, communication, mind-games, adaptability... any one of these can make up for poor aim. This applies to any game.
But even if aim is the only thing you're concerned about, you can still aim-train on controller. It's different, sure. But practice is still practice; if you put in the work, you will get results.
The best input method is always going to be the one you're most comfortable with.
Yah you’ll get your shit wrecked by KBM without aim assist
In shooters, the best mouse players will always beat the best controller players. There's a reason aim assist has basically become auto aim on consoles now.
It's perfectly acceptable for different input methods to be better for different genres of games. It doesn't mean you can't use a "suboptimal" method and not get great success with it, that's not what people are saying. You should ultimately use what is comfortable for you.
Cool looking game though! I didn't know about it.