My mom says that people who don't have "value" don't deserve to live and that "depression" is just an excuse for laziness. What's is your rebuttal for it?
Please don't tell me "see a therapist" I know that already.
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My rebuttal is that your mom's a bitch and there's no reason to pay attention to anything she says.
Damn right.
Right? If I had a mom like that I’d be depressed too.
Oh wait, I did, and I was.
Confirmed. Tagged this person before, I've noticed they often comment about some fucked up shit their mom says. But they're young and probably not able to escape it yet unfortunately :/
She's giving you the most difficult life lesson. I am almost 40 and to this day I dread to 'actively hear' many words my dad has to say about me or my decisions. It's a difficult lesson because they are our caregivers and as such they did many good deeds. But at some point we need to put our own mental health above anyone else's rant, rage, or toxicity. We don't owe them shit. After that leap, you may be able to come back to the issue that they were addressing with their comments and reflect upon the issue itself on your own and/ or with the help of others (friends, therapist, chatgpt?? I wouldn't recommend the latter but it may be a good starting point and better than nothing..)
She's utterly wrong. Take Robin Williams as an example: he was famous, rich, loved by everybody, stupendously funny. Still had depression. Still suffered.
It has nothing to do with people's "value" or their work ethic.
Iirc part of the reason he killed himself was because he had a very aggressive form of dementia.
Yea, but that conflicts with the narrative that money and success can't insulate you from depression and that everyone is secretly struggling exactly the same; so people have chosen to ignore that part.
From Wikipedia, the fourth para from top:
Note the article listed as the source for that statement, and its title: Robin Williams’ widow speaks: Depression didn’t kill my husband. As she eloquently puts it,
She never said her husband had no depression; quite the contrary. What she said was that depression didn't kill him.
Neurological disorders (such as various forms of dementia) and depression go hand in hand; it could even be said that clinical depression, being a dysregulation of the neurotransmitters that control mood, is a neurological disorder itself.
I don't want to get into the weeds with the medical nomenclature of depression, just because there has rarely been a time when it was not disputed. But the lived experience of dementia and its frequent accompanying depression can't be separated. You're just demonstrating your lack of knowledge of both and, it could be added, a serious lack of compassion here.
EDITED to add link
He had Lewy Body Dementia, which is a horrific disease. That’s why he killed himself. Not depression. Look into what it’s like to experience that disease, and you would probably want to kill yourself also.
I wrote a longer comment above, but you should know that the symptom of actual clinical depression is present in many neurological disorders, including Lewy Body Dementia: when both are present they cannot be separated.
But what you say is absolutely true: the disease is beyond horrible.
That statement has as much empirical evidence behind it as stating that depression is caused by the lost souls of dead aliens from an ancient federation killed by an evil overlord being stuck to your person and generating negative thoughts as a result of their traumatic death.
Hitchen’s Razor is your ally; what can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence.
Tell your mom some random on the internet told her she can eat a bag of dicks.
That story sounds somewhat Scienterrific
Scientoligical, even. Just listening to it, I can feel my personal agency transcending its bond with matter to the point of mastery over it as I shed those lost souls. If you too, would like to learn how, please DM me and have a payment method ready. Trascendental enlightenment ain't cheap.
This is true, however, most don't want to use their value from what I've read.
Depression's biggest factor has to do with food (most people eat food with more than three ingredients in it, of which is man-made; and Jack Spirko would call it feed). In my experience with it, I had a Vitamin B1 deficiency, which caused me to be pretty severe (nowadays, I'm suspicious I have functional depression)
Most don't want to contribute their value to a system that is designed to harvest that value for a 3rd party's benefit, and dump the shredded carcass for nature to finish with.
That is grossly oversimplifying one contributing factor to depression, while neglecting to even mention other physical and mental environmental factors. (See "1.")
tell her to remember that as she ages and her "value" declines
ohhhh well done
Your mom is an asshole.
Stop talking to your mother. She is a bad person and will have negative effects on your mental health.
She's been brainwashed into thinking that only people who contribute to capitalism have value.
I mean, she has a lot of investments in this system... seems about right for a capitalist.
She thinks she earned it.
She forgot how much I helped her.
She forgot how every time she made me translate stuff. How I literally filed her taxes every year.
But then she says that's something so insignificant, and that she could find an accountant to do it. And she refuses to find a lawyer, and literally made me starting doing legal paper work stuff when I was 16.
But of course, that's insignificant.
She told me to go to a court case with her to translate, because she doen't trust the court interpreters. Then she messed up the paperworks, lost the case, then cries in court, then blamed me for not "helping", wtf bitch you messed it up.
And she got so petty, she voted against the judge in the next retention election 😂 (of course 1 vote didn't matter)
Holy shit that's just abuse at this point. For all you know she might be the cause of your depression.
Unless you need any of that investment she has when she croaks, I'd be cutting ties. That's a toxic person.
Sorry, but she comes across as a narcissistic person. Probably you have guessed that already. Won't change your day to day reality, but it helps you when you are establishing your own interpersonal boundaries and contactmoments (small#E).
she sounds so bitter and hurt inside
Your mom's a cunt.
Woah, hey now. I doubt she's got the depth or the warmth to be called that!
There's no rebuttal. Some people are just wrong and honestly better of out of your life.
Also, I can't imagine she's just a great, enriching person except for those two opinions.
Prune her of your life.
You cannot logically rebut a bad worldview. Plant seeds of doubt, protect yourself, and move on.
Sorry to break it to you, your mom is an asshole.
Lol I remember I used to say something like: "hey grandmother is kinda useless, kill her? hehe" (jokingly)
I think mom just said something like "she had value in the past" and "i never had value"
... 🥲
Ask he what she thinks narcissism is.
I never heard the word 自戀狂 used except in a dictionary, I doubt this term is even used in Chinese society.
my rebuttal would be to cut her entirely out of my life.
I'm sorry you have to deal with that sort of toxicity in your family. There is no good rebuttal because it just seems like a lack of empathy, no one can make her care.
I'm sure that's rough for you. Wishing you happy holidays despite this callus friction. 💜❤️♥️😘
Don't waste your time and energy on arguments with people who don't want to listen.
This entire thread is a gigantic Yo Momma joke, only real
My rebuttal would be "people without empathy don't deserve to live either, but I'll spare you this time mother." Yeah, I don't see eye to eye with my mom much.
I'd tell them to shut the fuck up and not to speak that way about people in my presence.
My parents try to bait me into silly and shitty discussions like this, usually prompted by some conservative bullshit they saw on their preferred news program, and I just very simply say: "We can't discuss this because it is going to make me hate you." That's been enough to put an end to it for me.
Your mom doesn't have enough value worth your time. You don't change hearts and minds like these. These kinds of people don't change until shit personally affects them, because your mom is an asshole.
Every time that philosophy has been implemented it has resulted in mass death and social collapse. Meanwhile when "useless" people are given tools and resources some of them wind up less useless.
Isaac Newton was probably autistic with bad enough social skills he was generally despised. Stephen Hawking had ALS. There are cultures who would have declared both of them useless and unfit for life. Hell Hellen Keller was an author and important political activist (cofounder of the ACLU) despite being deaf blind, because people gave her a chance and worked with her to learn a form of communication that worked for her.
Why does your mom think she can decide who deserves to live?
Maybe she is a trolley lever operator tho
You don't need to waste your time or mental energy rebutting things that are obviously ridiculous.
Somebody else pointed out that there is probably nothing you could say or do to change her mind, and I'm sorry to say that's probably correct. She may or may not recognizes she's being emotionally abusive, but the authority she has over you likely gives her a sense of power. Trying to control your emotions by getting a reaction out of you, or making you upset, or making you mask your own emotions to please her (ex:telling you that you're not really feeling how you tell her you feel) gives her a sense of control.
You should know it's very pathetic behavior on her part, but you shouldn't waste your own time and energy trying to change her, or trying to get back at her by saying something mean to hurt her (even though that's exactly what she's priming you to do, and probably what her own parents did to her).
There is a good chance that one day you're going to realize it's just not worth the hassle and stress to have somebody so negative and toxic in your life. You're stuck with her now because she brought you into this world. You had no say in the matter.
That's what makes her obligated to you, (legally at least until you're able to take care of yourself, morally forever because you're always going to be her child that she brought into this world). Her job is to be your mother and accept you as her child.
Your job is to learn who you are and grow into yourself. That's it. You have no other obligation. She might have put a roof over your head and kept you alive, but that's literally bare minimum for every parent. It sounds like her idea of "value" is just doing her bare minimum obligation.
She might not realize it until the day she finds herself alone and longing to have you in her life, but one day it will be your choice, (not your obligation), to decide if you want any relationship or contact with her. She may currently have power and control over you, but she doesn't seem to have much value.
You might want to consider just not bothering to share your feelings and emotions with her anymore. Just talk to her like you would an acquaintance or a customer at work. No need for hostility or being rude, but also no need to make yourself vulnerable to somebody who refuses to respect you.
You can't control her being abusive and crazy. All you can control is your own reaction (and doing so will probably piss her off more than any hurtful thing you could ever say to her). She can be as mean and crazy as she wants, but just try to let it roll of your back and keep yourself neutral in whatever interactions you have. Minimize your time with her until you're able to move out.
I'm sorry she sucks and you deserve better. Maybe someday she can work on herself, and learn to be the kind of mother you deserve. Maybe she can apologize to you and you can forgive her and start a new chapter. If not it's her loss and you shouldn't let the opinion of a vindictive crazy woman make you question your own value.
Learn from her mistakes, and make it your goal to try and be the kind of person you needed around when you were growing up.
Agree with her. Then say all these old and retired people aren't contributing to the economy anymore and don't deserve to live. Then you ask her how old she is, for effect.
And specifically ask her, at which age or milestone does she think it's not worth to keep her alive anymore? You can suggest the point where she retires.
And if she says something like "well old people did contribute so much in the past", just say that so did depressed people and often they are depressed because of giving more than they had.
Or maybe agree with her and drive it to the ultimate conclusion: people with disabilities will need to be euthanized if they can't contribute. Working accident and you lost a limb or two? Euthanization.
Remind her to update her living will to let her die in case of an accident causing severe disabilities.
"OK, Boomer. "
You can't argue a person out of an irrational view.
Explaining brain chemistry and how dopamine works won't do it.
A belief like that is a way of signalling membership in an identity that the individual thinks benefits them. It's unlikely to change until that identity stops looking beneficial.
"why aren't you a millionaire? Hard work brings wealth. Lazy people like you don't have much value I guess."
Assuming you want to burn that bridge.
The thing is... depends on how you tally up the assets... if you liquidated all of it, it probably adds up to a million... (maybe, not sure)
But naw, its so tough out there... I can't afford to burn bridges... ICE is randomly picking up people on the street, being homeless and without access to money (like legal fees, in case they try to deport me or something) and without family to help is a baaad idea.
I hear ya.
The fundamental problem is that she doesn't decide who society thinks has value. If people without value should die, one day society might decide she has no value. Then what?
It's best to have a world where everyone is treated decently, because you never know where you'll end up.
The depressed, that's including you?
My guess is that you are depressed because you are constantly rejected. It's a gamble, but if you leave the rejection behind the depression could improve.
Also, showing the limit of power will change the power dynamics.
The unfortunate part could be that devaluating depressed people could be her attempt at making you abandon depression to make you happy.
So the rebuttal could be that it doesn't help.
So the Nazi stance, basically.
Honestly, I'll take that over people who say depressed/disabled people have rights, but also don't want to actually provide any kind of means for them to exist. Both lack compassion, but one is honest about it.
Your mother is an ignorant person.
and thus in this case worst than useless: dangerous
"ok boomer"
There is no teaching those who have no interest in learning.
Your mom is unfortunately mentally ill. Whether from upbringing or from organic damage to the brain... who knows. There's really not much you can do about it - parents especially are highly unlikely to listen to advice or anything from their children. Try to remove yourself from your mother as far as possible. Minimal communication, minimal contact.
I don't think your mom has value. Guess I get to execute her if I want, and she doesn't get to whine about it.
I hope your parents are divorced and you can stay with your dad. If not, find someone else to stay with. Your mom is about as healthy as HIV.
My rebuttal is she's an asshole and should shut the fuck up
Value is a superficial, arbitrary concept. Their value view is different from other people's. Zoom out far enough, and you can argue that nothing has value. Look around, and you can attribute value to many things, countless times.
So, value to whom and in whose eyes? They can't find value to and for others.
Depression is not just an excuse for laziness.
Oh, she's in for a rude awakening one day
You’re mom’s an awful eugenics supporting cunt who isn’t worth speaking to and you would be better off cutting all contact than even looking at her.
That's not even a stretch: mentally devaluing others is literally the first step toward building ovens. Glad to see you called it out.
And then demand that she proves every turtle on the way down. Money is not an indication of value because it has no inherent worth, etc.
Demand that she proves that your value is attributable to her and is not inherent to you. Etc.
Why rebut it? You aren't going to use logic to argue someone out of a position they didn't use logic to get to. Especially someone that probably thinks you owe them your existence. You'll never win that argument, don't ask me how I know.
If you're still living at home, make it priority to determine a way to make it on your own ASAP, or be prepared to eat shit until you figure that out.
I don't think I'd have a rebuttal.
She might have had a hard life, dealt with a similar kind of depression that you have, and developed these maladaptive views as a way to get herself through dark times.
I know your mom isn't going to see a therapist, but I don't see how arguing with someone who has calcified mental trauma is going to help.
Probably.
70s Rural China was rough.
Extremely conservative culture... never any mental health awareness... she told me about that supposedly there was someone in either her village or a nearby village thay had someone's son go "crazy" and they lock him inside the house and basically treat him like a dog. Like she says it in the present tense, like this supposed "crazy person" (her words, not mine) is allegedly alive today, never get to leave home. No idea if she made it up to scare me or if it's real.
She'd "worried" that I'll "end up like that"... Wtf
It may have been real, in part of the shame for the family of having a family member deemed crazy. That family may have thought this was the best way to treat him, in part because the greater community wouldn't accept him and there wasn't any available treatments for them.
Now, it doesn't mean that you have the same issues of the person in the story. Your mother's village probably didn't have an ability to differentiate people outside of sane enough to work and not. But, in her mind, she probably doesn't have any ability to understand mental illness so this is the closest she can go to when discussing it.
And it is really hard to bridge that gap in knowledge.
Well, what is value ? What's her "value" ?
Helping others is of enormous value.
Quite. If her job only provides value for herself, she's got no value.
You can tell her she's a negative person who devalues other humans to make herself feel important.
You can simply tell her that when she speaks like that you personally think less of her.
Wow. Your mom has horrible opinions. If she has a lot more opinions on the same level, I'd cut ties altogether.
No point in arguing with someone who doesn't care enough to think critically about the situation. If you play chess with a pigeon, the outcome of the game doesn't matter. Its still gonna shit on the board and strut around like it won.
I know you didn't ask, but find you some green spaces. Depression isn't a choice, but choosing to be depressed in a less depressing place is. Control what you can.
Nothing, someone with that world view isn't worth talking to. I've argued with enough brick walls in my life to recognize one.
"And what exactly makes YOU valuable?"
"I have money in the bank that measures my value"
Who is she to decide who deserves to live? God?
Of course, I'd hesitate to accept such a judgment from a god who presumably made those people that way. That would be a dick move.
As for pronouncements about mental health, I will accept citations, or maybe credentials. With neither, hers have no value.
Measuring people by what they can give to others or to capitalism is utterly wrong. EVERYONE has value to someone else.
Ask her what "value" is.
This sounds like psychopathy (also a trait of borderline and narcissism, although there's an argument to be made that psychopaths are distinct from those).
I wouldn't expect a logic based rebuttal to work - all of these conditions are essentially emotional in nature, compensating for a negative past (shame) or compensating for a negative future (generalised anxiety).
This compensation is specifically grandiosity - a cognitive distortion to set themselves up as superior in their own minds, such that they no longer need to be ashamed or anxious.
Contempt is a manifestation of grandiosity, or more precisely a reaction to shame, transforming the realisation of their perceived inferiority in the past or future into the delusion of superiority.
Is their a field of study that focuses solely on the behavior, and the root cause, in the way your third and forth paragraphs does? Or, like, a flowchart of emotions and root causes? That was an interesting way to dissect why people might behave in that way.
Yes, psychology, specifically cluster b personality disorders - although it's much more nuanced and complicated than what I've described, especially as conditions often transform and metastasize over time. For example, the borderline can take on a narcissistic persona when challenged and would be diagnosed as such in that self-state.
It's quite difficult to find reliable sources of information online, as narcissism and psychopathy are popular subjects these days - ironically attracting narcissists and psychopaths to the production of content relating to it (for views or money).
Less curious about cluster b personality disorders, specifically, and more interested in the practical understanding that (in this case) sometimes, the reason behind someone not valuing another is really about them trying to protect themselves.
The connection between contempt, grandiosity, and shame; it makes sense intuitively, but it is interesting to spell it out that way.
What about other big emotions, how many others are really outputs of another?
Tell your mom I don't see her value, she should consider seizing existence at my most earliest convenience. Seems fair?
Mostly joking but wtf is this cruel take from her? I'm sorry if you're having to battle this with her if you're struggling with things like depression anxiety
She is obviously mentally ill. She lacks the ability to empathize with others so she very well may be a psychopath or have a cluster b personality disorder. My advice is that she should see a therapist and if she doesn’t you should minimize contact or cut her off because she’s obviously very toxic
Other option, Louis Theroux that shit
Just don't react, but keep asking "why" type questions, again, just acting interested, like you think they could convince you if they're just explain it better.
Make them try to argue their own way into a hole until they're either so pissed off they drop it, or they start to disbelief their own thoughts.
It works cause you're not arguing against stupid that way, you're making stupid argue against itself, and nothing beats that
This won’t help your mom, she won’t change her mind and will try to drag the argument or will just attack until everything is destroyed. But here’s a clear rebuttal of the idea.
The failure of demanding everyone showing worth is determining what is worth and who gets to define and assign it. Every petty warlord believes they are the one to decide… and oh gee, amazing how they have the most worth.
If you tell your mom you will only accept her argument if she accepts you have more worth than her - and demonstrates it to you every day - it will probably make her go no contact until she needs you again for emotional affirmation.
Depression is real, I don’t have it but it’s real and I have friends that deal with it as part of their lives. It sounds like getting out of your mom’s sewer might help, but you might need medication as well.
"What the fuck is wrong with you??"
No rebuttal necessary. Anyone that shitty isn’t worth having a conversation with at all.
tell her that at one time women who could no longer give birth or provide for the family were considered worthless. at this point in time what does she think her value would be in a society that believes women are to be used as breeding stock and slave labor?
regardless of what she says follow up with, why does she believe she has value when clearly she's past her prime and can no longer provide children or support the family?
fight fire with fire. if she wants to follow archaic social behaviors throw them back in her face.
There have been some very helpful replies already so I'm just going to add this:
Imagine if your kids came to you and told you they were depressed (if you don't have kids, imagine you do and you love them very much).
Then imagine that -of all the things you could possibly say to them- you chose to tell them what your mother told you.
How would you feel about yourself as a parent (or even as a human being) if you did that? Essentially calling your own children worthless for being sick?
It's ok to feel that same way about your mother.
You mother had exactly one decision she got to make in regards to your life, and she already made it. She either needs to live with the consequences amd responsibilities of that decision, or learn to move on with her life.
It sounds harsh. But, if her love is based on how useful you are to her... Then that's not family, that's slavery.
That value is subjective, and that it sounds like her thinking of it as an objective metric makes her a horrible person.
Also, obligatory aside, seeing as this is the internet: I didn't fuck your mom. Nor would I; She sounds awful.
It's projection. She knows that in her retirement she has stopped "providing value". I doubt she paid you for the ad-hoc legal and accounting work you did for her, so she is happy for you to provide value without compensation. I would simply tell her that if she doesn't want to have to find her own retirement home she needs to start paying for your services. This is the kind of person who thinks value is what you pay for, so long as she isn't paying you she isn't valuing what you do for her. The whole "you are a negative value" is exactly what she is to you, she is taxing your time, energy and emotions to make up for some perceived economic loss for raising a child she chose to have.
That is exactly what this is. Perfectly said.
Don’t feed the trolls. I know she’s your mom, but not everyone deserves a response. If she keeps on you, just wave her away with “I heard you”.
I don't think there is much to say to that, other than a genuine "I'm happy for you that you have never had to struggle with depression. I hope you stay healthy, I wouldn't wish this illness on anyone."
My best advice is, don't try to change your mom's mind. Instead, focus on your own beliefs, and find a way to accept that she isn't ready to do the same and may never be.
Some things that might help you:
1) Understand that criticism can be a form of love, especially from our parents
When people who love us criticise us, it's usually because they want us to improve. It's not just to make you feel bad. Instead the feelings of shame are intended to motivate you to do better because they want you to be the best version of yourself.
It's not effective, and it hurts, but it helps me to reframe criticism in that way. Ask yourself, who made the comment, and why do you think they did so? If it's someone you don't respect, ot you think just wanted to be nasty, ignore it. If it's someone that you believe cares about you, ask yourself whether it could be an inefficient expression of caring. If the latter, let go of the hurt as inefficient, and try to consider objectively whether they may have a point, and what (if anything) you can or want to do about it.
2) Create and live a definition of value that you believe to be true.
Sadly, modern society teaches that our worth is based on our productivity and our school / work success. It sounds as if your mom may have internalised this belief, and it's possible that a lot of her own self esteem relies on it. That's why it could be very difficult for her to let go of. You can though.
Ask yourself, who are the people in your life that you value, that you care about? Consider them one at a time and ask yourself why they matter to you. You will notice very quickly that your answers have nothing to do with their productivity or their success. It will be their kindness, their sense of humour, their reliability, the way a smile lights up their face, etc.
Then ask yourself, how well do I embody these characteristics that I value in others? Try to be true to your definition of value, and feel empathy for those people who believe the lie that only productivity enriches our society.
**3) Accept that depression creates a burden for the people around you and try to minimise it
**
It's not your fault that you're ill, but that doesn't make it any easier for the people around you. Mental illness is a reason for struggling with certain things, not an excuse to dump the burden on others.
The low energy of depression means you need to prioritise what you do. Some of it should be activities that make you feel better, like going into nature, keeping a gratitude journal, or phoning a friend. Some of it needs to be being a good friend, partner, and child. Figure out what the other person needs and how much you can do.
Why did your mom mention laziness? Was it frustration at something she expected from you that you aren't doing? Can you negotiate and agree lower expectations from her? A discussion to understand her priorities could help diffuse some of her frustration.
Hopefully something in this helped you. Good luck.
Don't argue, she's obviously toxic. Leave her life. The furthest away you can. People who think like that just abuse and ruin others, and if you're at the point where you wonder whether she's using "special techniques" or smthg, it means she got to your mental health. See a therapist to mend what was broken, and get away from this toxic woman.
I'm sorry your parents were so hard on you, it wasn't your fault and didn't deserve it.
Look her straight in the eye and say:
"You are embarrassing yourself."
sounds like a right winger would say. is your mom working, if shes a sahm , she literally just the thing she described.
She is working, and she has lots of assets. Think like middle class type of stuff.
That's why I kinda have no rebuttal...
I'm kinda starting to feel guilty
objectively, she did materially support me a lot
but its just emotionally neglectful and abusive
constantly bouncing between "I love you my child" to 5 minutes later "WHY ARE YOU SUCH A HORRIBLE CHILD"
I feel like I'm slowly being brainwashed... I feel like she has this "mind control" thing she's trying to use on me...
Sometimes I suspect (maybe this is my paranoia) she has some CIA mind control weapon that she's trying to use on me... yea I sound totally unhinged I know... logically I know that's crazy, but emotionally I feel like she planted a chip in my brain that made me so submissive
I feel like she's making me go crazy
Sometime I worry she knows what I'm thinking.
Sometimes I suspect she might not be real mother maybe... mabe I hear too many kidnapping stories...
idk, my throughts are a mess...
if I say this shit to a therapist, I'd be locked up lol
People don't need any advanced CIA techniques to control the way you think and feel; Plenty of 'normal' abuse tactics can achieve this over time - arguably, control is the entire point of abuse.
The way you're questioning yourself alarms me. You're likely being abused, and you need support. Please do whatever you can to get help. At the very least, read up on types of emotional abuse and their effects on victims. You're not the only one.
You're not dangerous, so no you'd not be locked up. What you need is decent boundaries, not a response.
You're entirely separate from your mom. It's unlikely that there's a chip, so the question is how you can enforce that separation in a sustainable (for you) way. A simple "I don't agree" would probably help you feel less submissive without giving her grounds for more debate.
Guilt is a part of depression, it's built right into how you stay passive and sad. But you're not guilty, you're just struggling and that is - ask anyone except maybe your mom - really just part of the human condition. 90% of western adults have a depressive episode at least once in their life (stats by a therapist I used to go to), so you're in good company.
In addition ask yourself this: If you had kids, would you think they owed you in return for your support? As a parent it's something I feel you opt into when you decide to make babies. You don't just pop them out and then make demands for the years you had to change diapers or drive them to school.
What your mom thinks or not ultimately hasn't more or less value than your own thoughts and opinions. Let it go and focus on you and how you can limit your exposure to her opinions.
I start to wonder if maybe her parents were similar - did provide materially, but not emotionally. Striving through this (and getting hurt along the way) might have taught her to ignore the emotional and she might start thinking it's a good strategy overall.
As per the rest - she doesn't need any mind control devices to pull these tricks on you. She doesn't even have to be intentional about it.
See, an infant is infinitely attached to and dependent on the mother, as it is naturally the only way of survival. At this point, the life of a child is firmly in the mother's hands, all-round.
As kids grow up, though, they learn to think for themselves, to be independent, to disagree with their parents and act their own way. Some parents are not ready for this shift, and exert an ever increasing amount of pressure to control their children, to ensure they act exactly as their parents please. There are many tools for that, and your mother seems to manipulate your need of love and acceptance. She thinks she can use your feeling of hurt and neglect to teach you the "right ways".
These "ways", though, are nothing but her own desires and her vision that doesn't always align with your reality. She may never have suffered depression, and she never got to properly reflect on the issue, so she accepted the wrong narrative that depression is laziness, and now pushes it on you the same way she pushed everything else. By making you feel not loved nor accepted when you do something "wrong" in her book.
Now, what part of your thoughts you should be "locked up" over? The fact you rightfully feel manipulated? Or the fact that you attribute it to some mysterious CIA mind control (read: any external circumstance)? Both are things therapists see on the regular, they can work with it, and all it takes is some talking sessions and maybe simple meds in some cases. Seriously, go for it, you'll be in a much better place (at least mentally) in a few months if you do, and it won't be such a big pressure on your life anymore.
Getting therapy and learning to do things your own way without consulting your mom every step of the way may not only improve your own wellbeing, but your mom's, too. One thing controlling parents need is seeing their kids do things their own way and being just fine. When that happens, your mom will learn to trust you to yourself and finally relax for once. It will also significantly improve your relationships.
Source: went through a very similar thing, then after 1,5 years of therapy I'm free and my mom still loves me the same and we both live a calmer happier life now. After conflicts ended and the dust is settled, our relationships are better than they've ever been. She doesn't want to go back to what was before, and neither do I.
idk if you want to watch it but there's an anime about this ...
The Promised Neverland. idk if you want to watch it, it's kinda psychologically dark and might increase your paranoia a bit, but it's technically well-made and was a story where i just said "yep, that's me in there" because i lived through something similar like your growing-up.
Sounds like your mom wanted a little slave to obey her and instead got a human child with an individual character that wants to be loved and live free. Well, people do that a lot. Try to get away from there. Focus on what you're good at, train your skills try to stand on your own feet and make a life and a living of your own. Then you can start living independently and get away from people with such cold hearted inhumane points of view.
(Only productive people's live are valuable, seriously? That is just social-darwinist garbage... In my country there used to be a asshole with a funny beard who propagated this point of view a lot and he ended up shooting himself in a berlin bunker in '45)
Every child deserves unconditional love from their parents. It is their decision to set a child in this world not the child's. The child owes nothing to their parents. They're human beings not little slave servant puppets. Be aware that you're no longer the helpless child. You're an adult now. Help yourself and be the kind of parent to yourself your mother never was able to be. And you'll find people who care and love you for who you are and not only for your productivity.
My rebuttal: eat shit you fucking bigot
You cannot teach adults why they should care.
The people who are actually valuable would not say such a thing.
Do you think she is able to change her mind? If not, maybe it's not worth trying to refute whatever she can say or think.
I was still a child when I realized my mom and I would never agree on much. At first, I tried hard to force her to understand my point of view on whatever was at stake, not realizing the contradiction between 'understanding' and 'forcing'. I was barely a teen when I realized that contradiction and that it was useless to insist. It mattered even less that back then I knew for a fact I would not be spending my life with her, also I know I could spend time people with whom I felt... more welcomed/understood. Back in the 70s and early 80s, it was simpler for young kid to spend time outside of the house, even with perfect strangers... No idea how hard it has become for kids nowadays but I'm afraid this won't help them find some peace and hope (as a child, my life was more painful within my family than with any of those strangers I met outside and spent as much time as I could with).
I don‘t believe in laziness. There is no scientific proof for laziness but plenty evidence that points in the opposite direction. It‘s as ridiculous of a concept as an almighty god. Possibly even more outlandish.
Boredom is torture. Nobody is acting lazy out of choice. We simply spend our energy at unproductive things sometimes. But honestly? Isn’t that what all this circus is about in the end? That we do what we love or that we do things for others because we love them?
Show me one „lazy“ person and I‘ll tell you why they‘re not actually lazy but occupy themselves with things you or I don‘t deem important. It‘s not laziness. It never is.
Who decides what's valuable? She probably isn't valuable under certain metrics. She thinks broken legs are being lazy?
Wow, your mom sucks. Get her out of your life.
Your mom’s view toward mental health is backwards and unhelpful. Her way of thinking prevents people from getting the counseling, medicine, and / or guidance they need for their mind. Next time she has a physical injury, she should just suck it up and stop being lazy.
That's the thing, "its all in your head" they say... or "doctors are lying"...
Ugh... boomers.... (not actual boomers, but boomer mindset i mean)
She’s right about one thing, it really is all in your head. Just like knee pain in all in your knee. Or stomach pain is all in your “stomach.”
Physical pain is easier to relate to. If you suffer from a physical injury, people can see it and readily put themselves in your shoes—even if they have never experienced the injury themselves. No need to explain a broken bone, sympathy comes easy.
Mental anguish and disorder are much harder to relate to because there’s nothing to point to. You can’t expose your brain in a meaningful way where others can obviously see that something is wrong. Unlike physical pain, unless someone experiences the same mental issue, there’s nothing to relate to.
Worse, others use their own mental health experience as the baseline for how everyone thinks or feels. This further clouds their ability to relate, making it difficult for them to care.
Ask someone in your family for help in getting diagnosed by a pro. Be honest with the Dr. and follow their guidance. With luck, your health will improve and your relatives will witness this, enlightening them a little.
Good luck.
No rebuttal. Not worth fighting over. Probably can't change her, and who would it really help if you did? If the horrible things people believe are of no consequence to anyone else, just let them believe it. You can't save people from themselves.
Do you mean deserve instead of serve?
Cant type correctly in the middle of getting yelled at and I was desparate for a place to vent.
Homie, what you deserve is 'better'. I feel for you
No problem
She might just think waiters and waitresses are scumbags. Though even if they meant deserve, she probably still thinks that. Man, what an absolute hangnail she is.
Same thing i told my mother when she told me that same view... "Fuck you, kill yourself"
From your posts it sounds like you really just need to get away from your family, sorry.
She's a fascist and a nazi because she puts ideologies above human life.
Apart from that, if "useless" people truly didn't have a purpose, then why did nature make them in the first place?
Apart from that, "value" is highly subjective. You can just define your own value and then live by that. Then you have "value".
Apart from that, my experience with these people is that they're ideologically inconsistent. They will follow the rules and think that the rules are a good thing universally, until these very same rules turn around to hurt them. Because they inevitably do. Suddenly, the rules are bullshit and should be abolished. It has happened to my mother. She was a die-hard nazi, saying things such as "useless eaters should be abolished" and "who doesn't work, doesn't deserve to eat" and stuff like that ... She also said that "self-sacrifice for the employer is a good thing, because in the end you will be rewarded" or sth ... she was laid off last year. It was beautiful to see how she slowly realized that hard work does not always pay off and that some employers are just assholes, and that it's not always people's own fault that they're unemployed ... she had a change of heart after that and is less adamant about her earlier ideology now. Sometimes, things still slip through, but she's less aggressive overall.
This won't work on this sort of person. Failure is a personal choice in their narrow world view.
Spoken like a terrible human being.
Ask what "people that don't have value" are, definition likely includes her or people close to her at certain situations.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_depressive_disorder#Epidemiology
Okay maybe I worded it wrong. I mean like she says my depression is fake. Specifically she's accusing me of faking it to "avoid responsibilities".
Where'd she get her medical degree, Temu?
University of Wechat
🤣
Nah, I did understand it like that.
I posted that comment, because people generally wildly underestimate how common depression is. Because of that and because they don't know how to deal with depression, they will look for other "explanations", like yeah, sure, my kid's just lazy. And that even despite these other "explanations" being extremely toxic and worsening depression.
So, this basic fact, that depression is among the most common disorders, would be part of my rebuttal. In hopes that she can accept that and help you work through it, like an adult should, rather than this silly game of peek-a-boo, where she hopes for it to not exist, so long as she doesn't believe in depression. That is not helping anyone.
Don't worry about it. You'll save a ton of cash later, if you catch my drift.
Give her a tour of the most godawful nursing home to show her future when she no longer has "value."
Seriously, I feel like the owners of those places would feed their clients to the woodchippers if they could get away with it.
I think "nuh uh" is a fair rebuttal, to be honest
Nothing you say will influence that level of callous, cruel, self-centered, unempathetic evil. I would say nothing and never talk to her again. Ultimately, a person can only change themselves, and she has chosen to be monstrous. She is more likely to influence you than you are to influence her, because you can see beyond yourself and she does not.
I would read up on Albert Ellis' , concept of Acceptance, both for your own schema, and for dealing with your mother.
Undertanding and working on your acceptances can be life changing.
BTW, Ellis is a hugely influential psychologist, one of the founders of behavioral cognitive therapies, so no new age pop psychology here.
I'll speak to the humans have value part, but just briefly saying someone diagnosed with depression is just being lazy is bigoted against people with serious mental health diagnosis and is the same & just as gross as saying someone diagnosed with a physical condition like cancer is lazy.
You may be interested in learning about Alan Gewirth if you haven't had the chance yet.
https://iep.utm.edu/gewirth/
He argued for universal human rights based on our inherent agency. The argument is laid out better elsewhere, but a short version is something like this:
We humans have agency, that is desires & goals to accomplish. For a child it can be as basic as I'm hungry -> eat food, but this is something that gives us normative structure (you should do a thing). For example if I have the goal of graduating from school I should attend classes, I should do homework, etc.
Every goal you wish to accomplish can have different requirements, but two that are always present are the freedom to pursue your goals and the wellbeing to accomplish tasks necessary to achieve your goals. So you would need the right to freedom and wellbeing to pursue and achieve your goals.
Because your agency gives you the right to freedom and wellbeing to pursue and accomplish your goals, then everyone's agency grants them the same rights.
If you accept the 3 items above then violate other people's freedom and wellbeing then you would be objectively wrong and inconsistent in your beliefs, because you believe you have rights by agency but deny those same rights to others by the same reason (agency) they hold.
Pinpoint her ideology or religion and you will find venerated figures that didn't "provide value." For instance if we're talking about productive labour in the capitalist sense, Jesus didn't have a job (for most of the bible's narrative). Confucius? Similar story, I think. Any philosopher or religious figure...
Value really becomes subjective. If you're a writer like Ayn Rand or George Orwell, of course you have been very successful, but many people don't find value in your work, because they disagree with you.
Our ability to provide value is also fairly contingent on those around us, the head-start they've given to us, and the problems or trauma we have to overcome.
Was Ayn Rand on welfare?
Nothing wrong with welfare, just that she's not the best example of successful seeing as she wrote about rugged self reliance and railed against welfare while also being dependent on it.
She collected Social Security up until her death. It wasn’t welfare, but it was a government social program.
Typical libertarian. Spend a lifetime deriding socialism, only to die peacefully and comfortably because of the very programs they rail against.
Thank you for the clarification. I knee it was something which made her an absolute fraud and hypocrite with an espoused philosophy built on selfishness and greed.
I believe everyone has value. You might have born in the wrong time period to FULLY utilize that value, but that doesn’t mean you have NO value.
With that said. Don’t mind the voices that tear you down. Surround yourself with people that CARE.
Nazi.
One word is enough.
value is subjective. start there. in an hour, you should be able to uncover either a latent Marxist, monarchist, or fascist.
It sounds like she doesn’t understand how the brain works differently and in a person with depression.
Unfortunately, she probably isn’t willing to learn. I know a lot of people with similar opinions feel like they know everything.
I’m sorry you have to go through that.
I think I've said this before to you a few weeks ago, and I totally understand that it's easier said than done to cut family off, but your family are negative influences in your life and on your psyche, and you should be ignoring their bullshit and get away from them.
Sorry your family still sucks, all I can offer are platitudes I'm afraid.
To answer your question though, I think a good, solid "Shit up, shit-bagel, you wouldn't have shit if it weren't for me and no amount of denial on your part can change facts." and walk away/block/slam the door.
Can't ban chemtrails but you can reduce contrails which play a weirdly large part in warming up the planet irrespective of fuel consumed.
Just putting the word out for an underrated climate thingy.
I think I remember something about the clouds caused by massive container ships going away because they outlawed to really cheap crude oil their engines used. But the clouds actually had a cooling effect on the plant because the clouds reflected more light than the ocean. So some people are experimenting with spraying salt water into the air from these ships so the salt will create nucleation points for the clouds.
All this to say is coulds good, fossil fuels bad.
Does a painting have value? It doesnt do diddly except look pretty and be valuable.
Does a pet have value? It actively drains resources.
Value is a purely human concept and means only what we decide it means.
Don't take the bait of arguing with them through this batshit rhetorical frame that they are presenting. Stay focused on what it is that you want to say.
If she thinks that depression is just an excuse for laziness, then what's her excuse for her laziness?
It is simple, if not trivial, to go look up what depression means, for example, on Wikipedia. She hasn't done this, and we know that because her understanding of depression doesn't match the actual definition, so her opinion on depression stems from her laziness.
She implies that other people's laziness is a bad thing, so why does she think it's okay for her to express such laziness and lazy opinions?
Ask whose values and why others should adhere to them?
Who defines "valueless"? In my opinion, anyone who says something like that has no value and so...
My rebuttal is "your mom is a b***h". Cut contact as soon as you can; you don't need someone like that in your life. She doesn't value other human beings, and she doesn't have empathy for the suffering of others. She sounds like a nasty person to be around and all she will do is bring you down - either through her constant negativity or though her hatred of others.
You don't need to rebut her words - she is an adult and has made her choices - you just need to accept she is not a good person and move on as soon as you can.
From my experience, people who say this either highly value themselves or are/were depressed and hate(d) themselves for it.
Don't waste too much time trying to change their mind and just keep it in mind the next time they say something.
No.
Fuck off mum
The rebuttal is:
Go no contact, if she ever asks why you don't talk to her anymore, tell her she's a complete monster.
You don't need a therapist, she does. Sounds like she is suffering from EDD, aka Empathy Deficit Disorder. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-new-resilience/201004/are-you-suffering-from-empathy-deficit-disorder
Plenty of people have told you already that she sounds toxic, that you should cut ties, etc. I don't disagree, but if you do want a rebuttal:
What value does she provide to society now? And what value would she provide if, say, she was injured in such a way that she couldn't work anymore? What about when she retires? Does she think she should be culled in either of those cases?
Society works better when people know their loved ones are safe, regardless of their ability to contribute. Because when society doesn't take care of the less able, their loved ones have to; often at the expense of society.
Narcissists and people who struggle with empathy often miss that this is in their own self interest, because they often have trouble seeing that most people won't participate much in a society that doesn't help their loved ones.
She has a lot of money, which I can't get into the details of because of privacy reasons, but she could live off of the assets that she has and is safe as long as the entire system doesn't collapse. She doesn't really need retirement funds from the government.
(The only small problem is that we're not white... but then again, you got Clarence Thomas in Supreme Court so I'm not sure race really matters if you have enough wealth to shield yourself.)
As for "value", she's probably answer that she makes a lot of money, and therefore that's "value", I mean how do you win argument against that. "I'm rich" is basically her sword and shield. And noboy left her an inheritance either, so there's nothing of the sort I could use in an argument.
(Not really rich, more like "middle class")
She said she spent so much money on me so I have "negative value". She paid the fine for my illegal birth against government policy, and she said childbirth was a lot of pain. Spend so much time and money to raise me. So I "owe" her a lot.
I mentioned about that time during my birthday that she made me help her with... her bussiness stuff (which I can't talk about in details. I told her she ruined my birthday (it was my 18th birthday btw, so just... wow...). Then she told me so what? 生日又點呀，好巴閉呀？(So what it was your birthday, wow such an acomplishment!) Then she reminded me that she did all the work of giving birth to me and raising, and I should thank her.
I'm sorry if I sound so angry, I just... I have no one to talk to. (I'm working on finding psychiatric help, but I feel like I can't trust anyone)
Every second I'm near her, its just belittling.
I hate my heritage more and more because of this.
I have no way to leave. I'm just trapped because I was never allowed to cultivate the skills to live independently. I was always helping with my parents with their bussiness, no time to learn independence.
I'm not going to pretend that I understand your culture, I don't. But I can understand the "child of immigrants" position in the world that we share. I just started a LOT longer ago.
And I won't belabour the point. I'll sum up.
They moved here because of what THEY wanted. They also want you to be eternally grateful and follow their example. Except, you are a person, too. So, if they can't see how glorious you can be, they can either watch you struggle with cognitive dissonance induced depression forever or they can let you grow, explore and find what you're great at.
For the record, I needed a clean break from my dad to be able to rebuild my life. He was the role in my life that was toxic in the same way you describe your mom. That was in 2005. Incidentally, part of my story also had me leave North America for over a decade. I spent some time in Korea and China while I was away.
No time like the present. Run away from that cunt.
I hope you find your way clear. There is a way, you just have to find it. Take it slow. Determination and focus on a goal can help alleviate depression. This is an excellent step, asking about on the 'net. Everyone has value. Your mom is blinded to the fact (and it is certain) that she too was what we once all were, young, naive and full of unrealized potential. So she found her potential and realized it, but she forgot about it ever being unrealized. And that is on her, not on you. She is not better than you because your potential is as yet unrealized, and she's actively damaging your potential by pretending she is. Ignore it, stay focused and find your way.
Edit: and if you can find professional help that you trust, good. Depression is not just in the mind, it can be physiological as well. You may need to find out, but this will be part of your journey.
Man, she just sounds parasitic. That really sucks. I don't know anything about therapy or helping people with bad relationships or anything, but it also sounds like she's isolated you pretty effectively, which I know is a common tactic for people like this.
You said you don't have the skills to live independently - are you talking about day to day skills, like laundry and cooking; or are you talking more about being employable away from your family?
Depression make it hard to just... endure like a normal work week.
I mean I could probably be "normal" again if I have a safe environment I and get like antidepressants for 6 months, to like slowly transition to independence, but like if you immediately threw me out in the streets with no preparation, I'd probably die really quickly since I'm prediabetic and like hunger kills me really quickly... (like I just feel very shaky without food for like a few hours... if I'm outside and have to deal with extreme temperatures... yea I'd perish lol) and also like my throughts are all over the place...
But I don't know like... how do I do it...
For context: My older brother is 5 years older than me and he's still living at home... but he doesn't even have depression, I do. I kinda how to do do laundry, I did sometimes during my teen years.
I can sort of cook very basic foods, but no idea what is a "normal" nutricious meal... idk how to make 90% of the stuff my dad makes. Too complicated. Idk how to do grocery shopping really. Like more of just anxiety.
I have servere separation anxiety... I tried living at college-owned appartments for some time... I couldn't sleep at night...
I really can't get used to living with "strangers".
So sharing a living space with others could be just as bad as, if not worse, than family.
I really have a fear of someone trying to poison me or mess with my stuff...
Living alone is... well expensive... and also doesn't really solve the separation anxiety issue.
Idk what my brain is doing. Why am I so emotionally attached to my abusive parents? Especially very attached to my mother even though she is the most abusive one...
It's really strange... please don't judge me lol... like I feel anxious around my mother, but also anxious when I'm away from my mother...
So I guess TLDR is just: Separation Anxiety
Ugh, that is a shitty situation - wish I knew better how to help you get out of it! No judgement either - from what I understand, all of this is pretty common in these sorts of relationships. And yeah, depression makes everything far harder than it seems like it should be.
Like others have said, this is absolutely a situation where professional help is warranted. I know it might be tricky to figure out a regular schedule with one, but I think it'd be worth reaching out - I strongly suspect most would be flexible with a situation like yours, especially as it doesn't sound uncommon (meaning they may well already have a process in place for helping people in your situation).
As for the separation anxiety issue: I wonder if you might be able to adjust your tolerance? Sleep a little farther away in the house and see how that goes, and once that's feeling comfortable, sleep on the opposite end, then try a little farther again? I have no idea of that would work, but it's one more thing that might give you some control.
(I'm also here to just vent to, if you need it! Hearing about a situation like yours has me wanting to fix it, but I can also just listen!)
You're young and frustrated. And your parents aren't parenting well. That doesn't mean they don't love you. I suspect your mom is dick-ishly trying to get you to work harder. It will be frustrating but I suggest trying to come to some sort of compromise with her about what you want to do that she also views as "valuable". If not and you want to rebel (I did, I moved out at 20 and kept my parents at a distance), then start working on those independence skills now. If not, you'll be miserable and always consider yourself a victim in life, which isn't a fun way to live despite it feeling good in the moment.
Its such a weird thing.
One minute she tells me: "I love you very much do you know that?"
Then 5 minutes later: "WHY ARE YOU SUCH A LOSER"
Bipolar much?
Jesus christ... its like every 5 minutes, the evil alt-universe twin comes in and swaps places...
what the fuck?
Oh yeah maybe bipolar. Yeah move out man, distance will do you both good.
I'd say your mom has zero value offered to my life; therefore, while my value to her is zero, the reverse is also true so I don't have to care what she thinks.
Obviously, it's different for you.
I would share a story I often share with people who have to deal with difficult people. It's a parable, so it doesn't have to be true to make its point. You can dress up the story however much you want, but the essence of it is "I was walking with my father out of the grocery store when a homeless man asked him for money. My father gave him $20 (or whatever local currency is a couple hours' wage, buys a couple meals, or a big bottle of cheap booze) and I said, 'Dad, you know he's just going to use that to buy drugs or alcohol, right?' and he said to me, 'Well son, that says more about him than it does about me.'" We do what we do because of who we are, not because of who someone else is (to say that $20 would have gone better to a battered women's shelter or something like that). In this case the father just wanted to help somebody. So to apply that to your mom, I would say those people who don't have value to her don't need her approval to go on living. They're going to do what they do because of who they are, and who she is determines what she will do. If that makes any sense.
As for the depression thing, well, that's just incorrect. It's like saying any disease or illness is an excuse for something or representative of a certain group of people. It's as unreasonable and lazy-minded as calling AIDS "the gay cancer." Because yes, there is some correlation there (that is to say, AIDS can be transmitted through unsafe sex, and in the 1980s, when that slogan was popular, the gay culture was very promiscuous; likewise, depression does seem to present as laziness, to the untrained observer), but it's not a very educated thing to say and only makes the person look mean, and/or uneducated.
So for a "quick & dirty" answer, I would tell her that expressing those opinions in public could make her look bad. If you come from a conservative Asian background (assuming from the username — apologies if I'm wrong) you could also add that it brings shame to you and others, and in either case remind her that sometimes it is better to be assumed a fool than to speak and remove all doubt. Despite this long message, which I tried to make well-thought out and cover all bases, IRL I don't speak much. We open ourselves to criticism and doubt when we speak, so I listen, and observe, choose my words carefully. ;)
Lol, she'd turn it around and say that I'm making her lose face by being "not successful" as her.
What "value" does she purport to bring? Just out of curiosity.
Jesus fucking christ mom. I would ask her to evaluate her contributions to society and really dissect if she ever did anything meaningful in the past or present. Then usher her towards the nearest woodchopper and let her know its time to serve a real purpose.
Sounds a lot like "how you feel doesn't matter, your right to exist depends on being useful to me."
Which calls for acquiring leverage and using it to set boundaries, more than it calls for a rational rebuttal. Just gotta systematically remove the power such people have over you, and then they won't be able to talk to you that way anymore.
There isn't a ton to say, as she likely does not want or is willing to be convinced otherwise. If you know that her view is untrue (which, it is. There are, quite literally, millions upon millions of people who live fulfilling, good lives with depression. There are also people who provide "value" to the community through employment or otherwise who do not necessarily deserve to live.), then you do not have to value it. It's the same way you wouldn't value a Flat Earther's screeching about you being wrong about sphere Earth; they are beyond reason, and are not worth the energy needed to combat their views. It's tough, because it is your mother, but motherhood does not mean you are wise or well-lived. The barrier for entry to parenthood is extremely low.
Define "value".
"Fuck you mom!"
Then walk out and never speak to her again.
She's using a logical fallacy, in this case, vested interest.
Here's how it works, logically speaking, from Dr. Bo Bennet:
Person 1 is claiming Y.
Person 1 has a vested interest in Y being true.
Therefore, Y is false.
"Guess I'll kill myself"
I don't think she takes my suicide threats seriously, she think I'm joking. That I'm "seeking attention"
Eureka! That explains the hundreds of thousands of suicides!
"I hung myself to get out of work, to sleep, perchance to dream..."
What's her value?
She said suicide is stupidity.
Also if its a rich celebrity commiting suicide, she'd have this conspiracy theory of them actually getting secretly murdered by a mob hitjob. lmfao
Does she think David Carradine died from a Chinese ninja hit squad?
She thinks 張國榮 was actually thrown off the building by the 黑社會 (Mafia? Triads?)
(He leaped off the building as suicide after suffering from depression)
By the way your mom describes depression, it’s obvious she doesn’t understand what it actually is. She likely thinks depressed people simply sleep all day and feel sad. I would start by asking her to define the terms she’s using, have her define depression and value, then ask what she believes laziness means. The way she frames this suggests she’s repeating something she heard rather than expressing a considered worldview. It probably isn’t her own position; she’s just agreeing with it. Ask her what she actually believes, assuming she has a coherent position at all. Finally, close the discussion by asking whether she has actually read the Bible from front to back. That question usually ends the conversation.
Value is a loaded term here.
If, as I assume, she means "economic" value — in a twisted, Judeo-Christian, colonialist, capitalist, explotative system — then, sure, value is assigned to money and only the top 0.001% of earners "have value". Bully to the 99.999% of people on Earth who spend their lives delivering that value to the top. I hazard the guess your mom is one of those people.
Also, loaded into that term, if she has among her moral values those the western, chauvinistic, Biblical moral set, I might be inclined to question whether she lives up to her own values of charity, humility, and acceptance.
What everyone has is an "intrinsic" value; a unique set of experiences and gifts that has never existed before in the universe and never will again. We are here to delight in each other's presence and potential. This doesn't do much for the bottom line... until it does.
Collaboration on shared goals, building sustainable practices, and ensuring plenty for all are among humanity's highest intrinsic, economic, and moral functions. Previously, I said that the values system your mom probably considers correct is twisted; that's because in this system the highest functions are immense power, immediate profit, and absolute exploitation. These are ignored or invisible to most.
Your mom's blindness and/or ignorance is what makes her tragically wrong.
What does value mean and how do we get value? It seems more like she's saying that she doesn't value some people, and that we should have the same values as her.
But she doesn't get to determine value, the whole community collectively assigns value. We've all hade times in our life where we were less and more productive to give up on someone during a low point isn't just laughably evil but also a bad investment.
It costs basically nothing to be nice to someone and that could turn around their depression (there's tons of anecdotal examples of this).
Are there any people or things that are valuable to your mother solely because they bring joy? Are friendships purely transactional, are you supposed to win friendships and extract more joy than the other party? Dunno just feels like she hasn't thought very deeply about this.
Depression is a luxury of human social bonds, modern safety, and excess. Without that, yes, you get too lazy or too low "value" and Darwin gets you. But that's pretty archaic thinking that doesn't really apply to modern society.
Have you ever tried to coordinate 5 people to do something well? Do you know how hard that is? And you think thousands of well educated professionals, all over the world, are somehow working together to confabulate lies like "depression" just to justify laziness?
That would be my argument.
What value do young children or the ill have? Should we kill them? What kind of backwards anti-human society is that. Instead of just looking at someone’s value, we should look for the potential in each other and help each other get to our full potential.
Your mom is clearly part of The Organization.
I'm not mad scientist. I'm sad scientist.
I'm trying to find the correct Seikaisen (wordline) but I can't find it.
🥲
Welp, considering how everything is going, I'm pretty sure this one's not it.
Have you seen a therapist?
I had, they aren't helpful.
Its hard to trust any of them when all they seem to care about is money.
It took me about 4 tries to find a good therapist. I know it's discouraging but keep your eyes open for a good therapist.
"Value" is always relative. And it has nothing to do with depression or other mental health issues. As long as someone still has potential to be productive, then there's no exuse to say they don't deserve to live. Actually, if you objectively don't have potential to be productive, then you're such an outlier that you deserve to be cared for by others anyway. Everyone deserves to live.
So how is value relative to time and circumstance?
I have depression and ADHD.
People who see my work-in-progress stuff usually say "wow, you've worked really hard on this stuff for such a long time, this is amazing, I hope you have good luck finishing this stuff and world will see how great it is."
People who look at what I've finished usually say "you're a lazy b and you've contributed basically nothing to the society. What have you done last few years, anyway? Unbelievable."
By the way? This isn't exclusive to people with mental health things. Same thing happens to perfectly nominal people too. It doesn't matter how close you're to finishing some great work, someone's out there about to pull the rug from under you because they think you've not done enough. People get routinely absolutely screwed over by middle managers with completely arbitrary productivity metrics.
Try the classic (fully untrue, but who cares, it illustrates the point) quote about Einstein
We choose the family we want. It's a mindset that we choose whether to pass on.
She sounds like a hardcore fascist. I don't really have a rebuttal because I don't associate with fascists, if someone thinks that what is even the point in talking to them?
When talking stops, violence happens. Ignorance leads to hate and hate leads to violence.
I am ok with fascists being treated violently.
Not being willing to see other view points and immediatlely labeling it as fascism is ignorance... thats why people celebrate assasinations. Widening the divide and digging yourselves into deeper holes.
Willing to see a point of view that would see me or people I care for considered worthless and not deserving of life? Fuck absolutely everything about that. The only good fascist is a dead fascist.
Proving all the points, thank you.
Hmph! We don't live to bring value to others! People have their own value, if you treat them like tools, you waste any productivity you generate!
She's got the "One for all" part right but she fails to see the flip side of that coin, "All for one". As far as laziness, it reminds me of an old joke I heard..."My parents took me to a doctor because they thought I had mononucleosis. It turns out I was just lazy.".
Laziness dosnt exist, its just how we shame people into doing what we want and everyone is doing there best.
The first part is a new concept to me. Theres a book on it and the concept is pretty interesting. The latter too but I still get hung up on that one.
Both have helped me to understand I have my limits and that's ok.
But yeah. What is lazy. I mean most people don't want to live in situation. They literally can't get out of the rut for otjer reasons, just "wanting to" or "being productive" dosnt fix the underlying cause.
"You are barely worth a couple of dollars, according to your bank account."
She's probably an idiot and subscribes to Netflix.
That's some Little Red Book shit.
I think you are looking for people to say your mom is a bitch.
She very likely didn't say that in those words. If your intent was to understand her better in order to come up with counterarguments, you should not strawman whatever she said into oblivion.
Good idea, next time I'll record an audio clip and publish it.