You mean like how a lot of loving, caring folk who welcome everyone despite their differences often call for people to be killed for having a different opinion on Lemmy?
I've met overt racists who were more welcoming of members of the race they didn't like.
Nah you see a real republican would have bombed them into submission and sent in the seals to finish the job /s
Fr the only chance of winning would have been by perfectly following the rules of war, showing restraint, and working to arm dissidents and build a resistance capable of running a successful rebellion and governing well. Followed by us helping the new government build itself up. We learned nothing in Vietnam, we learned nothing in Iraq, and by fuck we managed to learn nothing in Afghanistan. We also managed to completely unlearn everything we learned in France, Germany, and Japan.
But had we learned all this we wouldn't have gone in alone, we'd've asked for the UN to call for troops to protect the protesters and worked with the international community to protect human rights.
No no, a REAL Republican would have personally walked into Iran naked, without a security detail, and carrying an American flag and an AR14 while proclaiming the Strait of Hormuz theirs. There's still time if Trump or any tech CEO wants to show off their masculinity.
There's no god damn horse shoe it's just people don't understand politics. You can be left wing and you can right wing and still be on authoritative dictator, freedom of expression is separated from social and economic policys.
It's like saying you can't be a dictator if you're religious, it's an insane comment, and yet somehow people think that it works for political philosophy.
it's almost like you're saying both ends of the spectrum can converge on the hows despite diverging on the whys, like they distance from each other in one regard but become closer in another... like the opposite ends of some kind of curved bar, you know?
That’s not even remotely what they’re saying because even the how is expressed differently. Left wing authoritarianism and right wing authoritarianism result in completely different outcomes, so no, even in your bad faith, condescending comment, horse shoe theory does not exist.
North Korea has the files, and are blackmailing Trump with it.
Hackers: You can hack hackers to do the funniest shit in the world, if the Lazarus Group happen to have some unredacted Epstein Files on a computer connected to the net.
How would we know? But estimates indicate that all the files currently released account for probably less than 1% of what they're actually is. Of course not all of that will be relevant, quite a lot of it will either be duplications of information we already have or the pool cleaning schedule. But there will be some non-zero proportion that is criminally relevant.
North Korea has the nukes, and any US surface ships within missile range have been sitting ducks for years. Trump is just the only one who can pass off a retreat as a victory.
I'm so confused by the way he ends so many messages with, "Thank you for your attention to this matter."
Is his brain so thoroughly fried that he can only regurgitate bits of corpo-speak regardless of whether they are applicable?
My headcanon is that someone sent him a letter with that closing 45 years ago and he thought, "That's a classy way to close a letter," so now he always uses it when he wants to feel official.
I also tend to read it as conveying the sentiment, "Please pay attention to me because I fear I will die if you stop paying attention to me."
One thing we know Trump is legitimately good at is manipulating rubes.
“Thank you for your attention to this matter" is actually quite subtle; it's got "you" and "your attention" in the same sentence, making it feel like he could be talking to you personally rather than as a group (compare e.g. Biden's common "May God bless you all").
"Hey, Trump thanked me for my attention, there's a guy who respects and values my time and opinions, and the fact that he says it in every one of his messages only means that he really does care what I think."
It's much better depicted as a 2D plane, a la Political Compass.
Tankies and Fascists have similarities because they're both hyper-authoritarian, not because being more fascist somehow brings you closer to tankies than your previous close political associations.
Either that or say NK is a dictatorship. When I first got on lemmy I got dogpiled by the hexies because I dared to say NK is a highly propagandized country (even gasp* moreso than the US). Still waiting for even a single one of those guys to move countries to live under the Kim regime, which apparently is the chillest, friendliest place on earth.
I'm not a tankie I just find the content there more interesting than whatever bullshit PR puff pieces get posted elsewhere. Do you want to engage with what I said on a factual basis or is your max level ad hominem? The marketing industry literally evolved out of Freud's psychoanalysis work as applied to US propaganda in the 2nd world war by his nephew Edward Bernays who then needed something else to apply it to after the war finished. American propaganda is so pervasive it's fucking depressing. You go to Europe it's there slapping you in the face. You go to South East Asia and it's there again. I have never seen any NK propaganda outside what I see on Youtube.
Are the NK people free to watch whatever media they want? If not, they're by definition more controlled by propaganda than the US. I haven't seen a video ad in years. I watch leftist media. If I'm able to avoid right wing propaganda and the NKs are not, that's a problem.
I'm not denying that the US has a massive propaganda problem. But comparing it to a closed state-run internet and media environment is just silly.
You're not seeing this clearly. NK propaganda is so primitive they need to restrict the media people can consume. US propaganda mechanisms are so advanced and sophisticated that they can create the illusion of choice and the majority fall for it. There are so many avenues and strategies. The Koreans can't compete. North Korea has a GDP of $34B. US marketing industry is nearly 18 times bigger than the whole of the NK economy. Do you understand what that means? They have to use crude methods because they can't afford sophisticated ones.
US is absolutely more propagandized than NK lmao, NK dont even need to propagandize their people against US, they just need to tell the truth about the horrific crimes US commited there. What has NK ever done against US to be this demonized? lol.
Look man, when you drop so many bombs on a country that people start living in caves, and your own pilots start complaining that there are no targets left to hit, I don't think you get to position yourself as the good guy.
Is North Korea a place with a troublesome political culture and a cult of personality problem? Yeah, but if you wanna know who's fault that is, go look in a mirror.
For me, they're some radical anarchist, especially of the flavour which rejects technology and proposes going back to tribal, gatherer life (not my cup of tea). But any progressive movement with some signs of democracy and true equality is more to left than tankies. Of course, I do admit that sometimes there is a need for authority -- like in the paradox of tolerance, the problem with free speech etc.
Unsurprising that ShitLibs just look at the surface of something and decide it's the same as something else because of surface similarities. They confuse billionaire owned media for unbiased sources, so it's no wonder they can't tell the tactics of siege communism from they way Fascism imports the tactics of control from the colonies by calling both things "authoritarianism".
I have a great Modlog, probably the best Modlog in the fediverse. People look at my Modlog and ask: How do you do it sir? That's a beautiful Modlog you have there. My ballroom is gonna be beautiful too.
It's crazy to call that dunkimg on somebody. It's the equivalent to having to get rid of a houseplant because your idiot trembling chihuahua is scared of it and pisses on the floor whenever it sees it.
"Wow what a riposte, really roasted that guy. Totally shut down his critique of AES by totally ignoring it and deflecting back to Amerikkka" –Every ml user in every conversation ever
Original post: trump incorrectly claims a country that constantly launches missiles towards neighbors and had the world's most recent nuclear bomb test is unthreatening and respectful, in part because he likes Kim Jong Un
Top level comment: wow trump has ml user rhetoric
Comment you replied to: yes, ml users hold irrational NK views in the same line as trump's tweet
You: wHaT aBoUt [USA] SaNcTiOnS??
Nobody was talking about anything related to sanctions, let alone supporting them. You've been trying to drop this non sequiter all over the comment section. In your mind, every geopolitical conversation MUST be directed towards pwning the westoids; any opposition to USA hegemony absolves an actor of defects. That is what makes you a tankie.
I know liberals have this ilk of bloodlust, imperialist wars and military aggression. Its not far fetched to think they would support sanctions on DPRK
The left-right spectrum makes less sense to me by the day.
However, I personally define tankies as authoritians who do some mental gymnastics to think that a benevolent "socialist" dictatorship equates to control of society by the workers. (It obviously doesn't. A dictatorship by a minority is exactly that)
Anyone who defines North Korea as socialist needs to reconsider their political positions, in my opinion.
Just because they're in opposition to the capitalist South Korea and the worst imperialist nation in the world, the USA, doesn't mean you need to stand behind the North Korean regime...
All the cool socialists think campism is brainrot (my opinion)
Edit: actually i think i wouldn't put them exactly in that X axis position, i am sleepy so ain't gonna try to understand well their exact position so that's good enough
You can be left and authoritarian. At least outside of the US you can, in America all politics get squashed into a single binary choice, so it seems weird.
anarchism isnt the only branch of left, similarly how libertarianism isnt the only branch of right. You guys are too confident for associating yourself with a vastly non existent ideology
Edit: Noting that I didn't mean that they are mutually exclusive outside of social structure.. You can take individual actions in a socialist society. The question is just around which is the core principle of the organisation of society.
Edit 2: to me anarchy isn't inherently individualistic, it is just opposed to power-over social structures. You can have a voluntary socialism. Look at Chiapas, for instance.
It's not a binary. I'm against hierarchal class structures but I still think we need specialists making rules about shit like environmental protection.
Right wing and left wing are economic labels communism and capatalism. Right wing people tend to cluster towards the authoritarian side of the authority and liberty scale but so do left wingers.
The distinction between left and right wing comes from the French Revolution. Everyone who wanted to keep the King lined up on the right. Everyone who wanted to try sonething new lined up on the left. Leftism is certainly inherently anti-monarchical, and I would argue also inherently anti-hierarchical. Tankies are right-wing communists; that's why left wing communists tend to disagree with them.
right wing is support of capitalism left wing is support of Communism You're not going to change the definition by selectively copy pasting the answer that you got by googling the definition of left right spectrum. You are conflating conservatism with capitalism they are two separate human conditions.
I can also copy paste from Google
Conservatism is a social and political philosophy focused on preserving traditional values, social order, and established institutions. Capitalism is an economic system based on private ownership, market competition, and profit. While often closely allied in modern politics, they represent distinct concepts that can sometimes conflict
I do want to stress that I'm not calling you stupid. I'm just trying to let you know that the words you are using do not mean what you think they mean.
Almost like the throughline is authoritarianism. They like it when they have control but they don't like it when who they don't like has control.
Honestly, it feels like those with lower iq and less ability to inform themselves are the ones that love authoritarianism. They can't form a coherent ideology and devolve into just trying to control everyone to their underdeveloped beliefs.
That's where the whole bullshit idea of horseshoe theory comes from. It's people leaving out the authoritarian axis because it's beneficial to divide actual leftists and make us seem crazy.
Comply with international law and open up and I'd probably be for lifting them.
Just like I'm for removing sanctions on Cuba.
Just like I'm for imposing sanctions on Israel.
Just like I'm for imposing sanctions on my own imperialist country that's bombing and invading the rest of the world.
And let's point out too that it's not the US alone who has sanctions on NK like we do on Cuba. The UN Security Council consistently votes against the Cuba sanctions. They don't on NK sanctions. Russia and China are part of that council too with veto power, but it's unanimois. So 🤷♂️
What I would be for, actually, is a better way to affect beneficial change and avoid harming civilians. Sanctions themselves disproportionately affect normal civilians through food and medical shortages, etc, while the political elite can avoid them.
We're agreed though, liberals, especially neoliberal capitalists, are imperialists. And we're feeling that imperial boomerang come back around to us finally.
We need the a Dictatorship of Proletariat to resist imperialism from outside and counter revolution from inside. In liberal terms that would be called authoritarianism, it could be ugly but its the reality and path we need to take.
Nazism adopted aspects of socialism, its just the Reich decided only certain groups were allowed to participate, while certain other groups were heavily persecuted stolen from, and murdered by the state. So on the Left Right scale yes they are slightly to the left of absolute right because of the social programs and redistribution of stolen wealth and land and the fact that while private ownership remained mostly intact private business was still guided and controlled by the state to facilitate the wartime economy. I'm not calling them socialists, just fascists that stole a few ideas from the socialists and implemented them in ways that would strengthen and benefit the german state, and pacify the remaining approved groups of approved peoples. It seems your conflating left right (communism - capitalism) with Authority and Liberty.
I more and more think that there is just one dimension starting by authoritarian and ending with social.
Faschistst, Tankies, free market libertarians, autocrats and feudalists, are just authoritarians in with different origins. Their team should be in power, their team should be supported by everyone, while they profit from it.
While social people want nobody to suffer, everyone to be in power and have self a determination, etc.
True free market libertarians are anti authoritarian. US free market libertarians are always happy to have tax cuts, subsidies, tariffs, regulatory oversight etc. So long as it benefits them.
There no such thing as a free market. It's a constant tug of war between corporate consolidation and government/public power preventing monopoly and abuse. Removing the public power just leaves corporations unchecked and able to control the market itself.
I don't think 'true free market libertarians' exist. They only want free market because it benefits them at the specific time or circumstances they want it.
They do exist. But not in the real business world.
There are economists that argue (with academic justification) that fewer frictions increase growth. But they usually ignore topics like human rights, environmental impacts, inequality etc.
yeah its easy to say those countries should be sanctioned because it will never happen. What is possible tho is to advocate for lifting sanctions from DPRK, more realistic goal
I heard recently on a podcast a friend put on after we broke a 'length of time arguing about music' rule that 'horseshoe theory exists and is real, but only for idiots'
Ok, so the basic gist im getting is that he begged sk to help save him from his iran quagmire, and when they rejected he said "ok fu" and took strategic resources (includong air craft carrier) out of the region, which finally reduced the pressure enough to sk to finally request peace from nk without daddy US butting in?
Trump got mad at being rejected, and tried to threaten imperilment, but instead it got nuetralized by peace because the us was holding up nk/sk tensions, especially in the latest while?
If so, this should be the strongest evidence for the technique of dealing with us foriegn deplomacy, just turn the chud down and he'll just give you your soverignty back.
Actually I think it's simply that Kim Jong Un says nice things to Trump and is Trump's kind of guy, while his counterpart in SK Lee Jae Myung is a kind of bad ass progressive.
Perhaps someone will be along in a moment to tell me how wrong I am but from wikipedia Myung seems to have a pretty amazing story:
Lee grew up in poverty and often missed social activities because his family lacked the funds, relying on school faculty's support to join field trips and community events. He cited fishing along the creek with friends as one of his favorite pastimes
Like other children from poor families, Lee worked in a handmade necklace factory instead of attending middle school. When the necklace factory went bankrupt, he found work at Dongma Rubber. Because he was underage, he worked under various aliases. While working there, Lee injured his finger
After the first accident, Lee left Dongma Rubber and worked for Daeyang Industry. There, an industrial press crushed his wrist joint in a second injury. The wound went untreated and resulted in a permanent arm disability.
Lee has stated his own experience with severe poverty inspired his political philosophy of "suppressing the strong, helping the weak" (억강부약; 抑強扶弱; eokgangbuyak), which seeks to curb the privileges and excesses of the powerful and support society's poorest members
... [becomes lawyer] ...
After opening his own lawyer's office, Lee organized for labour and human rights with the lawyers' organization Minbyun, working with the heads of labour counselling centers in Incheon and Gwangju. In 1995, he started a civic movement as a founding member of the 'Seongnam Citizens' Association'. He gained fame as a lawyer and social activist in relation to the "Park View" preferential sale case, where an investigation suggested corruption in the awarding of building permits and preferential sales of property in Bundang to government officials.
On 2 January 2024, Lee was stabbed in the left side of his neck while holding a question and answer session with reporters after touring the construction site of a planned new airport located on Gadeokdo in Busan.
Lee gained international attention in 2024 when, after President Yoon Suk Yeol declared martial law and attempted to stop the National Assembly from convening using the military, he continued to go to the Assembly building anyway. Lee started a livestream on his YouTube channel, recording himself in a car driving to the National Assembly and climbing the National Assembly building fence to bypass the military personnel.
Libertarians are by definition anti authoritarian. The Ancaps are our right wing fringe capital obsessed subgroup. The green party is our left wing fringe communism obsessed subgroup..
Personally as a relatively centrist Geoist Minarchist Libertarian.
What's "Lielbertarian" and why does searching for that give me zero results? Is it a typo?
If by "Lielbertarian" you mean the same thing I mean by "Libertarian with a capital L" (and what I mean by that is the U.S. Libertarian Party), then identifying as a "relatively centrist Geoist Minarchist Libertarian" explains why you'd say that "Libertarians are by definition anti authoritarian".
To a left libertarian (with a lower case l), right-wing "libertarians" (in quotes on purpose) simply prefer to be subjugated by despotic CEOs and landlords employing privately-owned mercenary paramilitary/cop organizations (like the Pinkertons) over being subjugated by despotic tyrants wielding state police and military. They're "libertarians" in name only. So long as my boss holds the authority to deny me access to the fulfillment of my basic needs and uses that authority to coerce me into creating surplus profit for them, nobody who thinks that's ok qualifies in my book as "anti authoritarian". (And no, the right to choose your own master by changing employers doesn't change whether it's authoritarian or not.)
Anyone who needs examples should read some Ayn Rand
Especially Atlas Shrugged
Pushed the belief that if you are big corp boss man it's because you are better than the plebs. Know better than them. Smarter. More sophisticated.
And Anyone being exploited deserves it. It's their fault for being in their position. They just are lazy and stupid anyway.
Her opinions. Not mine.
Her philosophies actually follow what we call in psychology as the dark triad or Machiavellianism.
Aka. Anti social traits.
By anti social I mean going against social order. Not being an introvert.
All three dark triad traits are believed to be conceptually distinct, although empirical evidence shows them to be overlapping. They are associated with a callous–manipulative interpersonal style.[8]
Narcissism is characterized by grandiosity, pride, egotism, and a lack of empathy.[9].
Machiavellianism is characterized by manipulativeness, indifference to morality, lack of empathy, and a calculated focus on self-interest.[10][11]
Psychopathy is characterized by continuous antisocial behavior, impulsivity, selfishness, callous and unemotional traits (CU),[12] and remorselessness.[13]>
Yes it's a typo. I have fat thumbs, personally I find your assessment is not accurate for the right wing side. Yes we do have very annoying ancaps but some of them swing a lot more hardcore anarchists than capitalists they just avoid the spotlight and live in the woods alone.
Most Libertarians are closer to Ron Swanson than Ron Paul.
On paper they are "anti authoritarian". But, it's not an ideology that actually has the ability to maintain itself. It's like the right wing version of Anarchism in that there is no good historical example of it being able to maintain its structures.
For anarchist, the failure comes from pressure of external forces and is not able to defend from imperial powers.
For libertarians, the failures are internal. Without a capitalist state to maintain it; the contradictions of capitalism are overwhelming. The "ancap" systems can't even reach a "true ancap" stateless society before it's capitalist are begging for the state to defend them and bail them out. Which often just shifts into a state run under an "authoritarian" like dictatorship that serves the interest of capital.
The real material result of libertarian thought just devolves into capitalism with no liberal democracy. With no liberal democracy to absorb the frustrations of the masses; the remaining state turns to more direct militant measures to maintain itself.
It's the dumb right wingers version of Anarchism. It's just an ideology that directs the working class to believe that the answer is less state power. But, the capitalist don't want less state power. They have it. They just want to offer YOU less and believing libertarian bull shit is a good way for the masses to work against their own interest. No capitalist actually wants to dissolve the capitalist controlled state. It's literally what maintains their power.
It's what happens when you don't have the the ability to analyze through dialectical materialism. It's confusing when suddenly the fascist mad man is seemingly taking the same stance as "tankies" on normalizing relations with a non violent country who's only crime has been being victim of a genocidal campaign over half a century ago. Trump likes Kim for the same reason that he likes Xi. He thinks they are actually the evil dictators that the US makes them out to be. He wants to be an evil dictator. He will always respect any leader that panders to his ego and treats him like a leader. Ironically, Western countries are bad at this. It's why he hates europe. Hell, Mamdani was smart enough to play a similar game of charisma. That's the dialectics. At least from what we are hearing from Trump. It's why he says things like this.
The main material reason is that the defeat in Iran has made any chance of the US maintaining its military in East Asia laughable. It cannot maintain its illusion of China being a threat. If China was going to invade Taiwan it would have done it. Instead, China cut its oil imports to help all of its Asian neighbors. The dream of a "shift to Asia" that happened under Obama is gone. The US power in West Asia is dying and they are pulling weapons and troops from East Asia to desperately attempt to hold onto it. They are stuck with capital invested in a region that they are showing absolute failure and weakness in. With capital investments in Israel and the military industrial complex Trump is being pressured to just "bring things back to how they were". They never will be. It may take a long time before that is admitted. I expect another round of bombing campaigns and maybe even a desperate small ground troop invasion to attempt to save face and "claim the strate". But this likely will fail and remain in this denial state for some time; ending through a different president most likely.
He will continue to deny the defeat and soon desperately shift to the one region of the world US capital can continue to exploit: South America.
Some of this is me mixing in my own predictions. Feel free to critize that. But, we obviously all know "JDPON Don" falls into the correct position sometimes, often because of his own ego and the shifting global relations in the face of a dying empire.
TLDR: The "tankies" are against American Imperialism. American Imperialism is losing its power and is forced by material circumstances to take actions that "tankies" would consider good. Trump is appealing to the "strong man" in Kim to make his weak move (failed Iran war causing troops and weapons to be removed) look like strength.
I think the simpler explanation is that NK has nukes, so any US surface ships in the vicinity are just missile bait in a war. Trump can get away with doing things normal politicians can't, so his advisors told him how 'respectful' Kim was being and got him to move the ships to a place where they might still have some utility.
This started not this week but months ago when they removed the THAAD defensive interceptors; not because they were "missile bait". They literally shipped them to Israel because they were running out of defensive interceptors there. They did this without any say or knowledge from the South Korean government until. They were told after the fact.
I don't disagree with your "simpler explanation". You're saying the same thing I said but removing the material reasons for why this is happening now. The THAADs have been there for 10 years. They were removed for a reason. The right wing military coup in South Korea failed and a more left leaning (for SK) government is in power. There are multiple material reasons for why the US is abandoning SK. The US was forced to remove THAADS, demanded submission to the empire with SK military support as it's people rightfully were upset. Trump wanted that submission in response to his sudden removal of the THAADs. They didn't get submission. So they are trying to get it through fear. The US hopes to stoke fear to move the SK government to the right (similar to Japan).
And if we've learned anything from the Iran war it's not specific weapons or military games that make other countries "missile bait". It's allowing US military bases in ones country and becoming a missile spunge for Israel.
Any country with US military bases right now should see them as a threat to their national security. Because you become the target when the US starts an illegal war of aggression.
Oh yes, the war with Iran is probably the immediate cause.
So they are trying to get it through fear. The US hopes to stoke fear to move the SK government to the right (similar to Japan).
I don't think this is realistic at this point. Compared to Japan, South Korea is a lot more economically dependent on China. Forcing them to choose a side could very likely result in them aligning with China (or becoming neutral).
Eh, one person replied now. But I get your frustration. There are a lot of things I can't say in a comment or that I assume others know about so I don't even explain it. I can't write a book. I already get the "I'm not reading all that" replies enough as it is. But, when someone reads a comment without that context it can be hard for them to understand.
Things like THAAD in 2016. The protest in South Korea (I was actually there when they happened). I didn't mention the obvious connection to Iran being that Trump removed them back in March to defend Israel. Something I incorrectly assume people know. So, I could see how my comment could be seen as a "jump" without that knowledge.
But, yes, I'd definitely prefer people reply that disagree.
He can't ask his very good friend Kim in NK for assistance with Iran? What is he even trying to say in the message, other than "herpaderp I have dementia"
He's trying to throw S. Korea under the bus cause they refused to help against Iran. Assume "petulant child" and you'll get his intention 90% of the time.
Yes, tankies are fascists and think almost exactly like MAGA.
I'm not sure socialism as a concept even makes sense when used together with authoritarianism. "Far left" looks like it's exclusively a made-up label for some flags the Alt-Right uses.
"Have these gentlemen ever seen a revolution? A revolution is certainly the most authoritarian thing there is; it is the act whereby one part of the population imposes its will upon the other part by means of rifles, bayonets and cannon — authoritarian means, if such there be at all; and if the victorious party does not want to have fought in vain, it must maintain this rule by means of the terror which its arms inspire in the reactionists. Would the Paris Commune have lasted a single day if it had not made use of this authority of the armed people against the bourgeois? Should we not, on the contrary, reproach it for not having used it freely enough?"
Frederick Engels
Name one country that is not "authoritarian", authoritarianism especially nowadays is a buzzword to dismiss whatever you don't like, every state is authoritarian, the question is who is it against, the workers or the capitalists, unsurprisingly a revolution in a reactionary capitalist world needs to sufficiently use authority to even survive the reaction.
Oh, I forgot that there are people that like to split the hairs here.
Let me fix my sentence.
It was not an actual nuclear weapon test that happened a week ago, it was for the missile designed to carry such nuclear weapon. Totally different intent. Unthreatening and respectful.
How does one get so far left that they are a "tankie"? I feel like I am very left leaning, but I would punch a tankie in the head.
is my understanding wrong? I don't get how you could be "Far Left" (In that they would be against Authoritarian Governments like the Nazis) yet also a "Tankie" (Which embraces and supports Authoritarian Governments).
Bacuse left and right - socialism and capitalism - have nothing to do with authoritarianism, which itself is a spurious concept. All systems are authoritarian; you're not allowed to form a communist state under liberalism, you're not allowed to form a government under anarchism, etc. You're forced to play by the rules of the hegemonic system, authoritarian is just a label for whether you personally like those rules.
Add to that the idea that revolutions are inherently violent and killing of some traitors is fine and you have your tankie. For dictators being somewhat anti American is a pretty good strategy. The US propaganda is pro democracy and that is a great enemy for a dictator, the US also does a lot of evil shit and the fact that your country is poor is all to blame on the US and absolutely not on the dictators stealing everything. That btw is also why "socialism" never worked for tankies. As in it would have been perfect, but the US destroyed it.
As for many of the best stories, there is a good bit of truth in it. As in the US actually does a lot of evil shit and 100% fights leftist movements. However it is not always the bad guy and two bad guys can fight each other and do so all the time.
And (neo)liberal democracy is working as intended in the US. Except it is a lie because capitalism, the news media, the voting systems and the institutions are all flawed.
There is a fundamental question about the value of democracy and capitalism that liberals refuse to even entertain. Which is a problem. They can't not see themselves as good guys.
So when you equate an "authoritarian" regime with a "democracy" you get called an authoritarian. Not someone for a higher form of democracy.
I do agree there is a reactionary element in trying to rehabilitate Stalinism and the immense state violence during the great purge. If you'd want a revolution and clean up in the USA, how many people do you think you'd have to execute or put in prisons / gulags? But even so (when led by a paranoid sociopath) it's not the same because the underlying ideology actually does make a difference. So horseshoe, schmorshu.
Tbh people would probably call me a tankie. And to get to the conclusions I've made about the world: violence and hierarchy are tools. They are not inherently evil.
And as another comment in you replies has said it just depends on if you agree with the what those are enforcing.
My horseshoe theory is that fascists are immune to horseshoes. I propose to launch horseshoes at Mach 4 at fascists to test this hypothesis (fascists take no damage from horseshoes being the null) and await positive response from the IRB
South Korean presidents shift but, including current one, make reunification overtures vs distancing steps to the North. Trump will definitely threaten bombing South Korea if they were to advance on such measures.
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You mean like how a lot of loving, caring folk who welcome everyone despite their differences often call for people to be killed for having a different opinion on Lemmy?
I've met overt racists who were more welcoming of members of the race they didn't like.
Most people who try to describe their enemy “the left” have about as much brain matter as JFK
I was really expecting you to say RFK with that worm business and all, but either work.
Flimsy excuse to post one of my favorite images
Man, when you look at it that way seems the whole family is cursed
Just their central nervous system, really. Everything else is or was tip-top.
JFK Jr: scrambled when he decided to push his flying skills beyond their limit, killing himself, his wife, and his sister-in-law.
I heard a conservative say the Iran situation is because Trump used to be a democrat and there's still some democrat in him.
A 100% republican would have fixed Iran in 2 weeks.
Damn in hindsight, it's obvious he's a lying piece of shit rapist, but at the time it was obvious too.
Nah you see a real republican would have bombed them into submission and sent in the seals to finish the job /s
Fr the only chance of winning would have been by perfectly following the rules of war, showing restraint, and working to arm dissidents and build a resistance capable of running a successful rebellion and governing well. Followed by us helping the new government build itself up. We learned nothing in Vietnam, we learned nothing in Iraq, and by fuck we managed to learn nothing in Afghanistan. We also managed to completely unlearn everything we learned in France, Germany, and Japan.
But had we learned all this we wouldn't have gone in alone, we'd've asked for the UN to call for troops to protect the protesters and worked with the international community to protect human rights.
No no, a REAL Republican would have personally walked into Iran naked, without a security detail, and carrying an American flag and an AR14 while proclaiming the Strait of Hormuz theirs. There's still time if Trump or any tech CEO wants to show off their masculinity.
Depending on the Republican, would be a good chance for a reckless invasion that gets a lot of Americans killed.
... look, whatever it takes to get them to want him gone.
I don't care if it's because they think he's a secret space penguin as long as they vote to impeach and remove.
Like attracts like. One egomaniacal narcissistic dictator likes another egomaniacal narcissistic dictator.
do you support the sanctions on DPRK? just curious
See. At least this time you asked about it instead of just assuming.
Sounds like a resounding "yes" to me.
What are y'all doing, tankie purity testing?
Edit to add 14 hours, 0 replies, and two [email protected] comments later:
Seems like the answer is "Yes" (or otherwise "I don't want to answer because the answer would reflect poorly on me/us.")
There's no god damn horse shoe it's just people don't understand politics. You can be left wing and you can right wing and still be on authoritative dictator, freedom of expression is separated from social and economic policys.
It's like saying you can't be a dictator if you're religious, it's an insane comment, and yet somehow people think that it works for political philosophy.
it's almost like you're saying both ends of the spectrum can converge on the hows despite diverging on the whys, like they distance from each other in one regard but become closer in another... like the opposite ends of some kind of curved bar, you know?
That’s not even remotely what they’re saying because even the how is expressed differently. Left wing authoritarianism and right wing authoritarianism result in completely different outcomes, so no, even in your bad faith, condescending comment, horse shoe theory does not exist.
that's just like.. your opinion, man.
North Korea has the files, and are blackmailing Trump with it.
Hackers: You can hack hackers to do the funniest shit in the world, if the Lazarus Group happen to have some unredacted Epstein Files on a computer connected to the net.
"Internet, do your thing 😎😂"
werent like half of the files released already?
yeah, I'm sure they only released the incriminating half, the rest is probably nothing
/s
Yeah, just look at all the arrests.... HA!
If you control enough of a given currency you can do whatever the fuck you please.
Yeah, the states have gone to shit ever since they made crime legal (for the rich).
How would we know? But estimates indicate that all the files currently released account for probably less than 1% of what they're actually is. Of course not all of that will be relevant, quite a lot of it will either be duplications of information we already have or the pool cleaning schedule. But there will be some non-zero proportion that is criminally relevant.
North Korea has the nukes, and any US surface ships within missile range have been sitting ducks for years. Trump is just the only one who can pass off a retreat as a victory.
There's a relationship between hacking and North Korea, but its not in the direction you're proposing.
I'm so confused by the way he ends so many messages with, "Thank you for your attention to this matter."
Is his brain so thoroughly fried that he can only regurgitate bits of corpo-speak regardless of whether they are applicable?
My headcanon is that someone sent him a letter with that closing 45 years ago and he thought, "That's a classy way to close a letter," so now he always uses it when he wants to feel official.
I also tend to read it as conveying the sentiment, "Please pay attention to me because I fear I will die if you stop paying attention to me."
One thing we know Trump is legitimately good at is manipulating rubes.
“Thank you for your attention to this matter" is actually quite subtle; it's got "you" and "your attention" in the same sentence, making it feel like he could be talking to you personally rather than as a group (compare e.g. Biden's common "May God bless you all").
"Hey, Trump thanked me for my attention, there's a guy who respects and values my time and opinions, and the fact that he says it in every one of his messages only means that he really does care what I think."
People at my work sometimes end emails with this phrase. I treat it as a dog whistle and stop respecting them.
I end some correspondance as such. I think its really funny. Sorry if this causes any confusion. I am not a big fan of the current US president.
THANK YOU FOR YOUR ATTENTION TO THIS MATTER!
Lol big difference between doing it to copy him vs being facetious. Thank you for your attention to this matter!
It hurts my head that they were being unironic. I guess people really are like that, though :(
Next time I need to send one of those emails that you have to rewrite 6 times in order to not get fired, I'm going to end it with that.
The way he always signs his tweets, or whatever truth social calls them, that gets me. We know it's you you idiot, it's on your account
The guy who posted this tweet supports american imperialism and israel btw
What Smoke and Mirrors! What bombast! Now release the trump-epstein mp4s and remove the degenerate-in-chief!
There is no horseshoe.
It's much better depicted as a 2D plane, a la Political Compass.
Tankies and Fascists have similarities because they're both hyper-authoritarian, not because being more fascist somehow brings you closer to tankies than your previous close political associations.
Can someone point me at one of these "tankies"? I only ever see strawman posts about how stupid they are.
Post something controversial like "Stalin killed some of his own people" on .ml and you'll see plenty of them.
Either that or say NK is a dictatorship. When I first got on lemmy I got dogpiled by the hexies because I dared to say NK is a highly propagandized country (even gasp* moreso than the US). Still waiting for even a single one of those guys to move countries to live under the Kim regime, which apparently is the chillest, friendliest place on earth.
Nowhere on earth is more propagandized than the US. It's a literal $607B a year industry and it's infected most of the planet at this stage.
Another wild ml account appears. Go live in NK and report back for me on the level of propaganda.
No, if you don't see the propaganda level the United States has achieved, you're blind.
Remember how every news channel on both sides of the aisle was denying Israel doing a genocide for the past 3 years?
Ever notice how every single news corp is owned by billionaire capitalists?
They are always great examples of the ol' Whataboutisum.
I'm not a tankie I just find the content there more interesting than whatever bullshit PR puff pieces get posted elsewhere. Do you want to engage with what I said on a factual basis or is your max level ad hominem? The marketing industry literally evolved out of Freud's psychoanalysis work as applied to US propaganda in the 2nd world war by his nephew Edward Bernays who then needed something else to apply it to after the war finished. American propaganda is so pervasive it's fucking depressing. You go to Europe it's there slapping you in the face. You go to South East Asia and it's there again. I have never seen any NK propaganda outside what I see on Youtube.
Are the NK people free to watch whatever media they want? If not, they're by definition more controlled by propaganda than the US. I haven't seen a video ad in years. I watch leftist media. If I'm able to avoid right wing propaganda and the NKs are not, that's a problem.
I'm not denying that the US has a massive propaganda problem. But comparing it to a closed state-run internet and media environment is just silly.
You're not seeing this clearly. NK propaganda is so primitive they need to restrict the media people can consume. US propaganda mechanisms are so advanced and sophisticated that they can create the illusion of choice and the majority fall for it. There are so many avenues and strategies. The Koreans can't compete. North Korea has a GDP of $34B. US marketing industry is nearly 18 times bigger than the whole of the NK economy. Do you understand what that means? They have to use crude methods because they can't afford sophisticated ones.
US is absolutely more propagandized than NK lmao, NK dont even need to propagandize their people against US, they just need to tell the truth about the horrific crimes US commited there. What has NK ever done against US to be this demonized? lol.
US bad doesn't mean NK good, ya mook
when did I say that? good and bad are moralist positions, we marxists dont believe in moralism.
You’re all over this thread putting words into people’s mouths then get upset when someone does it back to you. Lmao.
That's the wrong question
why? USA wiped out 12-15% of North korean population btw, they have every single right in the universe to demonize that country.
Look man, when you drop so many bombs on a country that people start living in caves, and your own pilots start complaining that there are no targets left to hit, I don't think you get to position yourself as the good guy.
Is North Korea a place with a troublesome political culture and a cult of personality problem? Yeah, but if you wanna know who's fault that is, go look in a mirror.
Is that why you support the killing of millions of USSR civis? Like legit?
when you are in a making shit up competition and your opponent is a kamla harris voter liberal:
Just go to Lemmy.ml
Refresh this thread
I mean there's a random meme and otherwise it's people arguing about propaganda. I'm waiting for the "Holodomor was based" people to show up.
It's not a strawman, that's just how how far out of left field they are.
An example https://vger.to/infosec.pub/post/37975928
I mean they exist, but it's like.. 3 people?
It's mostly bots, people get into argument with tankie bots and then make a whole fucking drama post about it.
capitalists gonna capitalist.
It is not a horseshoe: tankies are just another flavour of far right
how would you describe the far left?
For me, they're some radical anarchist, especially of the flavour which rejects technology and proposes going back to tribal, gatherer life (not my cup of tea). But any progressive movement with some signs of democracy and true equality is more to left than tankies. Of course, I do admit that sometimes there is a need for authority -- like in the paradox of tolerance, the problem with free speech etc.
And all of this is said as The terrorist state of Israel is killing children unchecked.
Please save the innocent Palestinians from the terrorist state known as Israel.
Unsurprising that ShitLibs just look at the surface of something and decide it's the same as something else because of surface similarities. They confuse billionaire owned media for unbiased sources, so it's no wonder they can't tell the tactics of siege communism from they way Fascism imports the tactics of control from the colonies by calling both things "authoritarianism".
Siege communism, this is a thing you said for real.
It's not something I said.
https://welshundergroundnetwork.cymru/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/blackshirts-and-reds-by-michael-parenti.pdf
This is where trump is objectively right and liberals have gotten mad they cant spill more korean blood.
That's extortion
Donald Trump has been appointed new administrator of lemmy.ml.
I have a great Modlog, probably the best Modlog in the fediverse. People look at my Modlog and ask: How do you do it sir? That's a beautiful Modlog you have there. My ballroom is gonna be beautiful too.
Oh my god the /r/pyongyang jokes from 15 years ago are just reality now.
At least they don’t make hidden blocklists to shadownban dissenting opinions. They just dunk on you publicly.
You have been banned from Lemmy.ml
It's crazy to call that dunkimg on somebody. It's the equivalent to having to get rid of a houseplant because your idiot trembling chihuahua is scared of it and pisses on the floor whenever it sees it.
why do you say this
ML stands for Marxist-Leninist, but in practice it stands for kissing the ass of the dictators in China, Russia and North Korea.
I am marxist leninist, I support lifting sanctions on North Korea, am I a tankie?
"Wow what a riposte, really roasted that guy. Totally shut down his critique of AES by totally ignoring it and deflecting back to Amerikkka" –Every ml user in every conversation ever
?
Original post: trump incorrectly claims a country that constantly launches missiles towards neighbors and had the world's most recent nuclear bomb test is unthreatening and respectful, in part because he likes Kim Jong Un
Top level comment: wow trump has ml user rhetoric
Comment you replied to: yes, ml users hold irrational NK views in the same line as trump's tweet
You: wHaT aBoUt [USA] SaNcTiOnS??
Nobody was talking about anything related to sanctions, let alone supporting them. You've been trying to drop this non sequiter all over the comment section. In your mind, every geopolitical conversation MUST be directed towards pwning the westoids; any opposition to USA hegemony absolves an actor of defects. That is what makes you a tankie.
Look, I dont even care about the tankie label
I know liberals have this ilk of bloodlust, imperialist wars and military aggression. Its not far fetched to think they would support sanctions on DPRK
I thought it was the national domain of the Metherlands...???
The Metherlands? That's my new go to for the Missouri boot heel?
lol, I always thought it stands for machine learning
meth learning.
which are all right wing countries by the way, thats why they mirror conservatives.
They're auth. left-right is the economic style
"Far left"
"Tankie"
Choose one
The left-right spectrum makes less sense to me by the day.
However, I personally define tankies as authoritians who do some mental gymnastics to think that a benevolent "socialist" dictatorship equates to control of society by the workers. (It obviously doesn't. A dictatorship by a minority is exactly that)
Anyone who defines North Korea as socialist needs to reconsider their political positions, in my opinion.
Just because they're in opposition to the capitalist South Korea and the worst imperialist nation in the world, the USA, doesn't mean you need to stand behind the North Korean regime...
All the cool socialists think campism is brainrot (my opinion)
The problem with any political label is that they're outdated by the time you define them.
The tankies describe themselves as such.
To not be associated with them, more actual far-left adherents need to actively disavow the tankies.
Sorry, that doesn't play into the both-sides false-equivalency rhetoric. Please delete this comment.
Tankies:
Edit: actually i think i wouldn't put them exactly in that X axis position, i am sleepy so ain't gonna try to understand well their exact position so that's good enough
you use political compass in big 26.
You can be left and authoritarian. At least outside of the US you can, in America all politics get squashed into a single binary choice, so it seems weird.
You can also be left and be right, and dumb and wise, and black and white, all simultaneously! Up is down, back is forwards, authoritarian is left!
No, left is against hierarchy
Schrödinger's political chessboard
anarchism isnt the only branch of left, similarly how libertarianism isnt the only branch of right. You guys are too confident for associating yourself with a vastly non existent ideology
No, left is socialist (in the broad sense, opposed to individualism)
* Anarchism has entered the chat*
Yea just gonna full sail disagree with you on this claim.
Many types of anarchism fit under the socialist umbrella
Yes, I agree, which would disagree with the other comment's point that socialism inherently opposes individualism.
Interesting. Where/when are they not opposed?
Edit: Noting that I didn't mean that they are mutually exclusive outside of social structure.. You can take individual actions in a socialist society. The question is just around which is the core principle of the organisation of society.
Edit 2: to me anarchy isn't inherently individualistic, it is just opposed to power-over social structures. You can have a voluntary socialism. Look at Chiapas, for instance.
As much as i know, anarchy is not indivualist since the entire point of anarchism should be that the community works togheter to do stuff
It's not a binary. I'm against hierarchal class structures but I still think we need specialists making rules about shit like environmental protection.
I thought libertarians were against hierarchy
We have nothing against hierarchy as long as everybody agrees who is in charge and why and nobody is coerced into it.
Tankies are what happens when you go all the way left and all the way up into Authoritarianship
end up being right wing. authoritarian in nature is often conservative leaning.
Right wing and left wing are economic labels communism and capatalism. Right wing people tend to cluster towards the authoritarian side of the authority and liberty scale but so do left wingers.
Yeah but right wing in tankie states were called the nomenclature, the old guard
We clearly are having a communication issue here. Right wing has meant pro-capitalism for over 200 years
mint > meant I blame speech to text.
The distinction between left and right wing comes from the French Revolution. Everyone who wanted to keep the King lined up on the right. Everyone who wanted to try sonething new lined up on the left. Leftism is certainly inherently anti-monarchical, and I would argue also inherently anti-hierarchical. Tankies are right-wing communists; that's why left wing communists tend to disagree with them.
right wing is support of capitalism left wing is support of Communism You're not going to change the definition by selectively copy pasting the answer that you got by googling the definition of left right spectrum. You are conflating conservatism with capitalism they are two separate human conditions.
I can also copy paste from Google
Conservatism is a social and political philosophy focused on preserving traditional values, social order, and established institutions. Capitalism is an economic system based on private ownership, market competition, and profit. While often closely allied in modern politics, they represent distinct concepts that can sometimes conflict
I do want to stress that I'm not calling you stupid. I'm just trying to let you know that the words you are using do not mean what you think they mean.
These words mean five different things to four different people, but I'll bite. Was the Meiji restoration 'left' or 'right'?
lenin was anti left-com, its ideology of twitter kids.
Almost like the throughline is authoritarianism. They like it when they have control but they don't like it when who they don't like has control.
Honestly, it feels like those with lower iq and less ability to inform themselves are the ones that love authoritarianism. They can't form a coherent ideology and devolve into just trying to control everyone to their underdeveloped beliefs.
That's where the whole bullshit idea of horseshoe theory comes from. It's people leaving out the authoritarian axis because it's beneficial to divide actual leftists and make us seem crazy.
Why is far left trademarked?...
Satire
Antifa LLC owns the trademark
Where did I say that it isn't?
Coming in with the Straw-Man Argument, it's beanburger!!!!!!!!!
You speaking for yourself on the matter?
Fair enough. That can be hard to recognize, let alone admit.
why do you oppose lifting sanctions on north korea - which is a nation that is one of the biggest victim of US imperialism?
Liberals are just imperialists.
Comply with international law and open up and I'd probably be for lifting them.
Just like I'm for removing sanctions on Cuba.
Just like I'm for imposing sanctions on Israel.
Just like I'm for imposing sanctions on my own imperialist country that's bombing and invading the rest of the world.
And let's point out too that it's not the US alone who has sanctions on NK like we do on Cuba. The UN Security Council consistently votes against the Cuba sanctions. They don't on NK sanctions. Russia and China are part of that council too with veto power, but it's unanimois. So 🤷♂️
What I would be for, actually, is a better way to affect beneficial change and avoid harming civilians. Sanctions themselves disproportionately affect normal civilians through food and medical shortages, etc, while the political elite can avoid them.
We're agreed though, liberals, especially neoliberal capitalists, are imperialists. And we're feeling that imperial boomerang come back around to us finally.
Ok you are alright in this regard
I however disagree heavily with your assertion on "authoritarianism", because I am a marxist leninist.
Every anti "authoritarian" tendency of socialism (moreso sceintific socialism i.e. marxism) is reactionary and idealist in itself.
So because of your political ideologies you are just going to hand wave aside authoritarianism, neat. What a load of trash.
We need the a Dictatorship of Proletariat to resist imperialism from outside and counter revolution from inside. In liberal terms that would be called authoritarianism, it could be ugly but its the reality and path we need to take.
Comment you’re replying to never said any of that.
Why did you use the stethoscope instead of the actual left right auth liberty axes?
Ah yes. The Nazis to the left of Fascism with Hitler on their left flank.
A different kind of satire, I guess.
and the well known Libertarian Socialist Christopher Hitchens
Nazism adopted aspects of socialism, its just the Reich decided only certain groups were allowed to participate, while certain other groups were heavily persecuted stolen from, and murdered by the state. So on the Left Right scale yes they are slightly to the left of absolute right because of the social programs and redistribution of stolen wealth and land and the fact that while private ownership remained mostly intact private business was still guided and controlled by the state to facilitate the wartime economy. I'm not calling them socialists, just fascists that stole a few ideas from the socialists and implemented them in ways that would strengthen and benefit the german state, and pacify the remaining approved groups of approved peoples. It seems your conflating left right (communism - capitalism) with Authority and Liberty.
https://www.theholocaustexplained.org/life-in-nazi-occupied-europe/economic-policy/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_People%27s_Welfare
Though TBF If I had made this graphic myself i'd probably have expanded the Nazism area to overlap with the Fascism square
The graphic also has my old professor on it as a notable figure, which is also comical. I wouldn't take it seriously at all.
I more and more think that there is just one dimension starting by authoritarian and ending with social.
Faschistst, Tankies, free market libertarians, autocrats and feudalists, are just authoritarians in with different origins. Their team should be in power, their team should be supported by everyone, while they profit from it.
While social people want nobody to suffer, everyone to be in power and have self a determination, etc.
True free market libertarians are anti authoritarian. US free market libertarians are always happy to have tax cuts, subsidies, tariffs, regulatory oversight etc. So long as it benefits them.
There no such thing as a free market. It's a constant tug of war between corporate consolidation and government/public power preventing monopoly and abuse. Removing the public power just leaves corporations unchecked and able to control the market itself.
I don't think 'true free market libertarians' exist. They only want free market because it benefits them at the specific time or circumstances they want it.
They do exist. But not in the real business world.
There are economists that argue (with academic justification) that fewer frictions increase growth. But they usually ignore topics like human rights, environmental impacts, inequality etc.
What a pedo rapist little bitch trump is
why do you support subjugating north korea to brutal sanctions?
Oh yeah. Now that I reread it that IS what they said 🙄
you seem to be mad
Nah. I was just bored and waking up.
read lenin dude.
Don't you have some red team atrocities to equivocate?
what?
Why are you trying to protect a pedophile?
who?
Because NK is a shitty country with a tankie Hitler.
when are we sanctioning israel, usa and other terrorist european nations?
That's the part I don't like, yeah, Israel, USA and Ukraine should get sanctioned too, along with lots of USA ballsuckers as the UK.
yeah its easy to say those countries should be sanctioned because it will never happen. What is possible tho is to advocate for lifting sanctions from DPRK, more realistic goal
I heard recently on a podcast a friend put on after we broke a 'length of time arguing about music' rule that 'horseshoe theory exists and is real, but only for idiots'
This is the truest thing I have ever heard.
Ok, so the basic gist im getting is that he begged sk to help save him from his iran quagmire, and when they rejected he said "ok fu" and took strategic resources (includong air craft carrier) out of the region, which finally reduced the pressure enough to sk to finally request peace from nk without daddy US butting in?
Trump got mad at being rejected, and tried to threaten imperilment, but instead it got nuetralized by peace because the us was holding up nk/sk tensions, especially in the latest while?
If so, this should be the strongest evidence for the technique of dealing with us foriegn deplomacy, just turn the chud down and he'll just give you your soverignty back.
Just stand up to the pretensious bully
Actually I think it's simply that Kim Jong Un says nice things to Trump and is Trump's kind of guy, while his counterpart in SK Lee Jae Myung is a kind of bad ass progressive.
Perhaps someone will be along in a moment to tell me how wrong I am but from wikipedia Myung seems to have a pretty amazing story:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Jae_Myung
What a guy. I suspect that he is one of the few national leaders who has refused to felate Trump's ego.
My god he is such a cunt. Has anyone asked Dennis Rodman’s opinion on the matter? They both seem to love NK.
why do you oppose lifting sanctions on north korea?
Why do you constantly put words into people’s mouths all up and down this thread?
Its easy to infer their position coz they are libs.
You don’t know that either, now do you?
This is such a lemmy.world flavored thread lol
Lol right globe emoji dumbass take celebrated by libs
There is no left-right. There is only auth-lib.
And no, Libertarians (with a capital L) and ancaps are not on the "lib" end.
Fucking ancaps... Too dumb to understand anarchism. Dumb enough to rally around unfettered capitalism. And extra stupid enough to conflate the two.
There is also socialist-individualist
Libertarians are by definition anti authoritarian. The Ancaps are our right wing fringe capital obsessed subgroup. The green party is our left wing fringe communism obsessed subgroup..
Personally as a relatively centrist Geoist Minarchist Libertarian.
What's "Lielbertarian" and why does searching for that give me zero results? Is it a typo?
If by "Lielbertarian" you mean the same thing I mean by "Libertarian with a capital L" (and what I mean by that is the U.S. Libertarian Party), then identifying as a "relatively centrist Geoist Minarchist Libertarian" explains why you'd say that "Libertarians are by definition anti authoritarian".
To a left libertarian (with a lower case l), right-wing "libertarians" (in quotes on purpose) simply prefer to be subjugated by despotic CEOs and landlords employing privately-owned mercenary paramilitary/cop organizations (like the Pinkertons) over being subjugated by despotic tyrants wielding state police and military. They're "libertarians" in name only. So long as my boss holds the authority to deny me access to the fulfillment of my basic needs and uses that authority to coerce me into creating surplus profit for them, nobody who thinks that's ok qualifies in my book as "anti authoritarian". (And no, the right to choose your own master by changing employers doesn't change whether it's authoritarian or not.)
Anyone who needs examples should read some Ayn Rand
Especially Atlas Shrugged
Pushed the belief that if you are big corp boss man it's because you are better than the plebs. Know better than them. Smarter. More sophisticated.
And Anyone being exploited deserves it. It's their fault for being in their position. They just are lazy and stupid anyway.
Her opinions. Not mine.
Her philosophies actually follow what we call in psychology as the dark triad or Machiavellianism.
Aka. Anti social traits.
By anti social I mean going against social order. Not being an introvert.
Your comment has the same vain as : anyone who wants to see examples of communism should look up stalin. Please don't paint us all as An caps
We are talking about libertarian views.
And no, to the Stalin remark.
Imo communism in its Marxism form has never existed so there is no historical example.
Btw. Libertarians praise Atlas Shrugged. It's like their political manifesto. It's been praised by many prominent libertarians.
Have you ever tried ironmaning your arguments instead of using here say strawmen? It works a lot better.
So you have no valid criticisms of any statement I made ?
Yes it's a typo. I have fat thumbs, personally I find your assessment is not accurate for the right wing side. Yes we do have very annoying ancaps but some of them swing a lot more hardcore anarchists than capitalists they just avoid the spotlight and live in the woods alone.
Most Libertarians are closer to Ron Swanson than Ron Paul.
On paper they are "anti authoritarian". But, it's not an ideology that actually has the ability to maintain itself. It's like the right wing version of Anarchism in that there is no good historical example of it being able to maintain its structures.
For anarchist, the failure comes from pressure of external forces and is not able to defend from imperial powers.
For libertarians, the failures are internal. Without a capitalist state to maintain it; the contradictions of capitalism are overwhelming. The "ancap" systems can't even reach a "true ancap" stateless society before it's capitalist are begging for the state to defend them and bail them out. Which often just shifts into a state run under an "authoritarian" like dictatorship that serves the interest of capital.
The real material result of libertarian thought just devolves into capitalism with no liberal democracy. With no liberal democracy to absorb the frustrations of the masses; the remaining state turns to more direct militant measures to maintain itself.
It's the dumb right wingers version of Anarchism. It's just an ideology that directs the working class to believe that the answer is less state power. But, the capitalist don't want less state power. They have it. They just want to offer YOU less and believing libertarian bull shit is a good way for the masses to work against their own interest. No capitalist actually wants to dissolve the capitalist controlled state. It's literally what maintains their power.
It's what happens when you don't have the the ability to analyze through dialectical materialism. It's confusing when suddenly the fascist mad man is seemingly taking the same stance as "tankies" on normalizing relations with a non violent country who's only crime has been being victim of a genocidal campaign over half a century ago. Trump likes Kim for the same reason that he likes Xi. He thinks they are actually the evil dictators that the US makes them out to be. He wants to be an evil dictator. He will always respect any leader that panders to his ego and treats him like a leader. Ironically, Western countries are bad at this. It's why he hates europe. Hell, Mamdani was smart enough to play a similar game of charisma. That's the dialectics. At least from what we are hearing from Trump. It's why he says things like this.
The main material reason is that the defeat in Iran has made any chance of the US maintaining its military in East Asia laughable. It cannot maintain its illusion of China being a threat. If China was going to invade Taiwan it would have done it. Instead, China cut its oil imports to help all of its Asian neighbors. The dream of a "shift to Asia" that happened under Obama is gone. The US power in West Asia is dying and they are pulling weapons and troops from East Asia to desperately attempt to hold onto it. They are stuck with capital invested in a region that they are showing absolute failure and weakness in. With capital investments in Israel and the military industrial complex Trump is being pressured to just "bring things back to how they were". They never will be. It may take a long time before that is admitted. I expect another round of bombing campaigns and maybe even a desperate small ground troop invasion to attempt to save face and "claim the strate". But this likely will fail and remain in this denial state for some time; ending through a different president most likely.
He will continue to deny the defeat and soon desperately shift to the one region of the world US capital can continue to exploit: South America.
Some of this is me mixing in my own predictions. Feel free to critize that. But, we obviously all know "JDPON Don" falls into the correct position sometimes, often because of his own ego and the shifting global relations in the face of a dying empire.
TLDR: The "tankies" are against American Imperialism. American Imperialism is losing its power and is forced by material circumstances to take actions that "tankies" would consider good. Trump is appealing to the "strong man" in Kim to make his weak move (failed Iran war causing troops and weapons to be removed) look like strength.
I think the simpler explanation is that NK has nukes, so any US surface ships in the vicinity are just missile bait in a war. Trump can get away with doing things normal politicians can't, so his advisors told him how 'respectful' Kim was being and got him to move the ships to a place where they might still have some utility.
This started not this week but months ago when they removed the THAAD defensive interceptors; not because they were "missile bait". They literally shipped them to Israel because they were running out of defensive interceptors there. They did this without any say or knowledge from the South Korean government until. They were told after the fact.
I don't disagree with your "simpler explanation". You're saying the same thing I said but removing the material reasons for why this is happening now. The THAADs have been there for 10 years. They were removed for a reason. The right wing military coup in South Korea failed and a more left leaning (for SK) government is in power. There are multiple material reasons for why the US is abandoning SK. The US was forced to remove THAADS, demanded submission to the empire with SK military support as it's people rightfully were upset. Trump wanted that submission in response to his sudden removal of the THAADs. They didn't get submission. So they are trying to get it through fear. The US hopes to stoke fear to move the SK government to the right (similar to Japan).
And if we've learned anything from the Iran war it's not specific weapons or military games that make other countries "missile bait". It's allowing US military bases in ones country and becoming a missile spunge for Israel.
Any country with US military bases right now should see them as a threat to their national security. Because you become the target when the US starts an illegal war of aggression.
Oh yes, the war with Iran is probably the immediate cause.
I don't think this is realistic at this point. Compared to Japan, South Korea is a lot more economically dependent on China. Forcing them to choose a side could very likely result in them aligning with China (or becoming neutral).
I agree. I think it's desperation. I don't think it will work.
see how they just downvoted your comment and lack mental capacity to actually reply.
Nope, most people are just tired of arguing with tankie idiots the same way they are tired of arguing with MAGA idiots. It's the same type of person.
Nope, most people are just tired of arguing with libshit idiots the same way they are tired of arguing with MAGA idiots. It’s the same type of person.
Lol, sure my guy. Keep telling yourself that.
same can be said about your comment above
Eh, one person replied now. But I get your frustration. There are a lot of things I can't say in a comment or that I assume others know about so I don't even explain it. I can't write a book. I already get the "I'm not reading all that" replies enough as it is. But, when someone reads a comment without that context it can be hard for them to understand.
Things like THAAD in 2016. The protest in South Korea (I was actually there when they happened). I didn't mention the obvious connection to Iran being that Trump removed them back in March to defend Israel. Something I incorrectly assume people know. So, I could see how my comment could be seen as a "jump" without that knowledge.
But, yes, I'd definitely prefer people reply that disagree.
I'm so confused
Trump begged the South Koreans to join on Trump's Iran war. SK said go pound sand. Trump is throwing a tantrum like the baby he is.
He can't ask his very good friend Kim in NK for assistance with Iran? What is he even trying to say in the message, other than "herpaderp I have dementia"
He's trying to throw S. Korea under the bus cause they refused to help against Iran. Assume "petulant child" and you'll get his intention 90% of the time.
Yes, tankies are fascists and think almost exactly like MAGA.
I'm not sure socialism as a concept even makes sense when used together with authoritarianism. "Far left" looks like it's exclusively a made-up label for some flags the Alt-Right uses.
"not sure socialism as a concept even makes sense when used together with authoritarianism"
True, only anti-marxist socialism is actual socialism™
What exactly are you distributing if people don't have human rights?
If the government is authoritarian, it seems to me that it's automatically not socialist.
"Have these gentlemen ever seen a revolution? A revolution is certainly the most authoritarian thing there is; it is the act whereby one part of the population imposes its will upon the other part by means of rifles, bayonets and cannon — authoritarian means, if such there be at all; and if the victorious party does not want to have fought in vain, it must maintain this rule by means of the terror which its arms inspire in the reactionists. Would the Paris Commune have lasted a single day if it had not made use of this authority of the armed people against the bourgeois? Should we not, on the contrary, reproach it for not having used it freely enough?"
Name one country that is not "authoritarian", authoritarianism especially nowadays is a buzzword to dismiss whatever you don't like, every state is authoritarian, the question is who is it against, the workers or the capitalists, unsurprisingly a revolution in a reactionary capitalist world needs to sufficiently use authority to even survive the reaction.
Bakunin had previously participated in three different revolutions at the time this was written
Yeah, I'd say Engels is a clear example. And yeah, most likely revolutions themselves can't be socialist at all.
...are you saying Marx and Engels are tankie fascists?
Liberals have exact same stance on imperialism as MAGA
hence liberals = fascists
So you support anti marxist socialism? i.e. utopian socialism? lol.
Unthreatening and respectful, they just did a nuclear weapons test like a week ago
The last actual test by North Korea was in 2017.
Oh, I forgot that there are people that like to split the hairs here.
Let me fix my sentence.
It was not an actual nuclear weapon test that happened a week ago, it was for the missile designed to carry such nuclear weapon. Totally different intent. Unthreatening and respectful.
The US did over 1000 tests since WWII. So?
Would you describe the US as "Unthreatening and respectful"?
No. Then you just answered yourself.
How does one get so far left that they are a "tankie"? I feel like I am very left leaning, but I would punch a tankie in the head.
is my understanding wrong? I don't get how you could be "Far Left" (In that they would be against Authoritarian Governments like the Nazis) yet also a "Tankie" (Which embraces and supports Authoritarian Governments).
Help me?
Bacuse left and right - socialism and capitalism - have nothing to do with authoritarianism, which itself is a spurious concept. All systems are authoritarian; you're not allowed to form a communist state under liberalism, you're not allowed to form a government under anarchism, etc. You're forced to play by the rules of the hegemonic system, authoritarian is just a label for whether you personally like those rules.
Specifically, it was made to separate Hitler from the right and pawn him off to the left.
It is honestly pretty simple:
US = bad -> anti US = good
Add to that the idea that revolutions are inherently violent and killing of some traitors is fine and you have your tankie. For dictators being somewhat anti American is a pretty good strategy. The US propaganda is pro democracy and that is a great enemy for a dictator, the US also does a lot of evil shit and the fact that your country is poor is all to blame on the US and absolutely not on the dictators stealing everything. That btw is also why "socialism" never worked for tankies. As in it would have been perfect, but the US destroyed it.
As for many of the best stories, there is a good bit of truth in it. As in the US actually does a lot of evil shit and 100% fights leftist movements. However it is not always the bad guy and two bad guys can fight each other and do so all the time.
And (neo)liberal democracy is working as intended in the US. Except it is a lie because capitalism, the news media, the voting systems and the institutions are all flawed.
There is a fundamental question about the value of democracy and capitalism that liberals refuse to even entertain. Which is a problem. They can't not see themselves as good guys.
So when you equate an "authoritarian" regime with a "democracy" you get called an authoritarian. Not someone for a higher form of democracy.
I do agree there is a reactionary element in trying to rehabilitate Stalinism and the immense state violence during the great purge. If you'd want a revolution and clean up in the USA, how many people do you think you'd have to execute or put in prisons / gulags? But even so (when led by a paranoid sociopath) it's not the same because the underlying ideology actually does make a difference. So horseshoe, schmorshu.
This is objectively true. Tell me one big societal change that is achieved without violence?
Democrats and Republicans, i.e. Libs and MAGAts
Most of the time those "dictators" are dirt poor themselves (see maduro or gadaffi). I dont know where you got this assertion from.
Socialism absolutely worked and it was 100% destroyed by USA most of the time.
Why would you punch a tankie in the head?
Tbh people would probably call me a tankie. And to get to the conclusions I've made about the world: violence and hierarchy are tools. They are not inherently evil.
And as another comment in you replies has said it just depends on if you agree with the what those are enforcing.
My horseshoe theory is that fascists are immune to horseshoes. I propose to launch horseshoes at Mach 4 at fascists to test this hypothesis (fascists take no damage from horseshoes being the null) and await positive response from the IRB
Where's the video of that KPop band performing to North Koreans with like zero set production? I feel like it will be revelant here soon.
(?)
Does he do this to affect the market evaluation of SK chipmakers? I can't think of another reason his henchmen talk it through him rn.
Trump was simping for Kim Jong Un during his first term. This is basically a rerun.
Hellll yeah!
Something something broken clock
Yeah totes unrelated to Iran just like you say Donald
South Korean presidents shift but, including current one, make reunification overtures vs distancing steps to the North. Trump will definitely threaten bombing South Korea if they were to advance on such measures.
This has nothing to do with the US being busy with Iran. /s
far-right* tankie
But muh bof sides!!!!!
One has nukes, the other does not. Trump, whatever his faults, understands what that means.