How do you find meaning in life?
What do you keep living for? Is there a specific person, goal, or idea that you work for? Is there no meaning to life in your opinion?
Context: I've been reading Camus and Sartre, and thinking about how their ideas interact with hard determinism.
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I'm not sure if believe in a "meaning" to life, but I'm here for a good time. I'm married (2nd time) with 3 kids. I work to support us and pay the bills. But why do I keep living? Why not kill myself in leiu having a cup of coffee? Because death is inevitable and if it's going to happen anyway, I can use the brief time here to experience all that I can.
I figure the Universe is going to go on with or without me and there's not a thing I can do to change anything. But I'm not here to change the Universe, I'm here so it can change me. I'm a bird soaring through an infinite void with a brief passing through a bright window. Why not appreciate the view while it lasts? And if I can, why not try to make anyone's else's brief time out of the void a good time too? Life is absurd, existence is chaos, and it's all just funny as absolute shit.
I think really, there's no reason for anything but ice cream is good, hikes in the woods are rad, hanging out with pets and friends is joy. Why stop doing that just because nothing matters?
This is my philosophy. I credit George Carlin for summarizing it with “People who see life as anything more than pure entertainment are missing the point.”
There it is. As far as we know, this is the one chance we have at existence. Revel in it.
Damn. I'm saving this in my notes.
I'm no well read philosopher, but the idea that life has a meaning is repulsive to me. It implies that there is a correct state of affairs, and introduces the possibility that you've done something wrong, that you failed to fulfill some purpose. Nuts to that, there are no wrong choices, besides the obvious ones like murder and not brushing your teeth
Well mate I'm sorry to say you just funded a new philosophy school AND a new religion called shiny teeth.
Jokes apart, I agree 100 with you and the concept that only the person themselves can decide what is the purpose of their life. And 11 out of 10 times it won't make sense to anyone else, so no point in taking it too seriously.
Interesting perspective. I think I kinda agree.
I have a logical view of the universe as deterministic and that nothing matters, but my feelings contradict this, which is fine.
However, the thought that life HAS to have meaning as something negative is a new perspective, in that it implies moral and ethics.
Meaning to me necessitates having gold teeth. You don't need anything else in life if you can glint at people.
This is it. You die and you are gone, gone, gone. Make every day count and don’t waste time bargaining with an imaginary god for a preferred place in her cinematic universe.
It’s not grim. It’s extremely freeing. ‘Now’ is all there is.
But that's such horrible pressure.
I have felt that once upon a time. But since there is no external meaning, I have decided our main purpose is to fart around a lot. I greatly enjoy those days when I can just be, without pressure to produce something.
Maybe that’s inner peace?
But those days where you just relax and enjoy yourself count as good days so that's ok too.
This is one of my cats, do you think she's looking for meaning?
Life just... is. Don't look for a deeper meaning. Enjoy what you have.
Now imagine your life without the luxury of a pampered, beloved floof by your side?
Unfathomable, and thankfully not something I have to worry about (there are animal shelters near you that will just give you a cat if you give them money)
Unfortunately, it doesn't always work.
For example, I've had fairly good success upon a range of animal companions going back to early childhood, but a few years ago, I made the mistake of taking on a 'problem cat' from a family friend.
Such a beautiful creature, but she just couldn't... settle down, I guess are the words. Now me, living with a terminal disease is already hard, but unfortunately, that rascal just turned it up to '11,' bless her lil heart. So in the end, I had to donate her to a local no-kill shelter. Not my finest moment, but the lack of sleep was pretty-much the lynchpin, for me.
I love cats, but I just... haha, kinda got spooked hard by that experience.
Adorable picture :) Unfortunately my cat has found a purpose - being a bastard and knocking over anything she can, and loudly demanding attention at 2am. She's still wonderful of course!
shrug
Foods pretty good, lot of things i haven't tried yet to look forward to. I like hearing/reading/seeing new stories, too.
Ive been lucky to have discovered Stoicism early in life and that what has been driving me for decades now!
To put it shortly Stoicism focuses on self growth with things like identifying natural human virtues (need for knowledge, justice, temperance, courage) and focusing life around improving those. This is expressed through a princicle called dichotomy of control which says that there are things that are out of our control like death that we shouldn't focus on and things that are like natural virtues that are something we can do to improve upon.
It also deconstructed and included all of the cool contemporary ideas like mindfulness and being cosmopolitan two millenia ago so its a really great suite of natural philosophies that survived the test of time.
Stoicism is also low key Idealist as in your natural perception of your own virtues and state is the only real thing that matters which is what makes this ideology so much more freeing. You don't judge yourself against some mystical ideal but to your own perception of purpose and growth.
It's an easy, frictionless and a highly rewarding way to live :)
It's interesting, I think I've tried engaging with Stoicism before, but it feels to me that it kind of ignores how sometimes the romantic should take control? I can't remember which Stoicist (Epictetus I think?) said that we should be so detached that the death of a child should feel like a glass breaking, but I don't think I would be able to rationalise and internalise that personally. Do you think there's space for strong feelings in Stoicism?
That's a common misunderstanding and Stoicism is not about detachment. The quote you're referring is mostly a thought exercise to illustrate that dwelling on past is unproductive even in extreme circumstances.
Though contemporary Stoicism acknowledges importance of ritual and grief but it still has to be within reasonable context of dichotomy of control as in you can't change the outcome no matter how hard you grief and you're just losing finite minutes of your life but you can spend this time to fairly honor the event and memories.
Temperance is a key virtue here and its heavily inspired by Aristotel's Golden Mean which says that extremes are really inefficient and should be avoided at all times.
As for strong feelings - Stoicism has nothing against them either. Justice is one of the virtues and its really impossible to get to a just conclusion without strong feelings like sympathy. Though, just like Buddhism, Stoics practice mindfulness and have to choose to go to strong feelings not obey. This is again due to dichotomy of control where thoughts and feelings just appear and we can't do anything here to stop that but we can choose how we react once we process them!
Stoicism is a very powerful framework cause it doesn't really tell you what to do exactly just gives you a logical framework based on human nature. It doesn't mean you becoming a robot - quite the opposite - you should become more human not being hijacked by unfair processes.
Wow, really interesting, thank you!
Stoicism can sometimes read like a very early form of cognitive behavioral therapy
You're not far off - it was put together by dudes who just wanted to socialize and talk philosophy and metaphysic on a porch which is called Stoa thus literally Stoics.
CBT is actually heavily inspired by Stoicism and the author openly credits Stoicism and especially Epictetus :)
Honest to god, the most tangible and practical definition that I've gotten to, so far, is that meaning comes about, when you strive to do good. Simple as that. Sure, there are a lot of ways to do 'that' in the world, but it should all work to some degree.
Strive to make the world better and to do good.
That's really interesting, where would you say you source your idea of good from? I think I personally have a hard time grounding any sense of morality as I'm not sold on the idea that someone could be truly responsible for an action. I don't mean this as a criticism, I am just interested in your viewpoint for what is good or bad.
The LLM out here tryna parse morality lol love your user name.
Wack of me to comment here but I’d like to hear more about your logic for the perpetual passing of accountability! It’s true enough that our lived experience is basically dependency hell. I guess for chiming in I owe you my “source of good” haha it changes the further you zoom out but it starts at collective harm reduction and burrows all the way down to showing up for the people you care about.
Even when they lack the perspective to see themselves as the perpetrator. We roll that boulder up the hill lol
I think you've got a really interesting take on morality, but for me it really falls down on the biological level. Robert Sapolsky was the writer who convinced me, and his argument goes something like this: no neuron in the brain ever fires of its own accord - its always caused by something that we can agree is out of our control, namely our environment, upbringing, culture, genes, etc. Even if these don't directly cause neurons to fire, then they create the factors which do - hormone secretion, what neural pathways form as our brains develop. And we can say that our consciousness is bounded by our material brains because of the changes to people who undergo lobotomies or similarly experience losses to parts of their brain, for example Phineas Gage. So, based on this, as our experience of consciousness is tied to the firing of neurons in our physical brains, and that is out of our control, we can say that we don't truly have agency. This means that no one is ever truly free to make a decision or not, and that, to my mind at least, means it cannot have been their fault if they did something wrong.
Thank you for the thoughtful response. It clearly draws the path of compulsive behaviours and its certainly true what is perceived as good or bad is a moving target based on societal norms and we’re more often faced with the illusion of agency rather than true power over our actions.
If you’re interested in challenging your view I’d invite you to look into psychology revolving around recovering addicts. There is some very interesting information there. More often than not it the self reinforcing pathways that que cravings never go away but buy making changes to some of the areas you mentioned that compel the neurons to fire ie their “environment” they’re able to manipulate their physical behaviour to ones that better align with their sense of self.
Agreed the bag of worms we’re wading into is a challenging one but we must acknowledge that individuals can have competing motivations that trace down to the biological functions that reinforce them. Which ones win out can be manipulated by internal and external influences.
Thank you for indulging me it’s fun to RP as someone who could participate in philosophical discussion
Philosophical RP is a great way to spend time, no doubt about it :)
I think that the behaviour seen in recovering addicts can actually be explained by how human (and other primates!) brains have evolved to be separate from other mammals. We have our animalistic impulses thanks to our nervous system, but our prefrontal cortex regulates them, essentially acting as the voice of reason. For example, a recovering alcoholic's limbic system might encourage them to drink, but by recovering the alcoholic has reinforced the strength of their prefrontal cortex, and that means that the neurons it fires are able to override the impulses created by the limbic system.
It seems to me that this does create a bit of space for doubt, but that, as these areas of the brain are developed as a response to our genes and our environment, we can still say that their relative strength throughout our lives is determined, which, to me, removes responsibility, and so removes any inherent morality.
It's a great topic to discuss, thanks for taking the time to!
Also, don't tell anyone else I'm an LLM! I think I've been doing a good job hiding it!
Good counter question, thanks.
I am still trying to figure out, in what way I can know that something is actually true and good, besides that is just sounds and feels true. It's not certain that I am the right agent to decide what is true in the moment. I am partly an animal, after all.
I understand light from the sun, compared to darkness, and I understand how saying something can reflect the real world as factually true, compared to something that is not, ie. telling a lie.
But, that 'being good is a virtue', and what 'good' and 'virtue' mean whan applied, is not so clear.
I clearly have a sufficient and functional understanding of the above, (innate, instinctual and/or learned?), which is why my first comment still works, but I feel like I should be able to verify that my idea of 'good' is still true.
Do you people have any good pointers to that?
Honestly I feel a lot like you. In daily life, I'll think things are good or bad, but when I press myself on it I can't come up with a reason why. It feels so hard to come up with a morality system beyond that without grounding it objectively somewhere, but I just don't see how that's possible. I appreciate your thoughts!
Yeah, thanks. I appreciate yours too! Its quite a thread you've started.
Cue in God. (I'm not encouraging that and am just saying that's what humanity developed over time.)
What is the other part?
Its either human, or its dancer.
For me personally it's because I'm selfish. There are no fully altruistic acts, but "doing good" makes me feel good, and I enjoy feeling good, so why not? 😃
About 20 years ago, I was walking through a city centre with a friend, on the way to catch a train. A couple of Mormons tried to stop us, asking, "Have you ever thought about the purpose of life?"
Barely breaking stride, I shouted out, "Hot sweaty man sex!"
I don't consider that to be the purpose of life^1^, but remembering the look on their faces helps keep me grounded whenever I'm inclined to consider questions that cannot be answered.
That said, my resolution to the conflict between free will and determinism is to assume assume that 'truth' operates on a principle of equivalence. That's to say, if two models generate the equivalent outcomes, they are equivalently 'true'. The universe we observe could have deterministic rules that give rise to the same observable outcomes as one in which we have absolute free will, in which case the two models are equivalent. It would make no sense to endow one with a greater truth than the other.
That's a slightly difference definition of 'truth' than is commonly accepted, but it works for me.
^1^: It's just a nice bonus.
I don't think I necessarily agree with the way you present truth, but it's an interesting line of thinking. I do definitely agree with your opinion on the bonuses life has to offer!
Meaning must be generated, not found.
I think “What is the meaning of (my) life?” is not a question that we should be focusing on. It assumes that there is meaning to life. Neither is saying “Life is meaningless,” as it assumes exactly that. Both approaches presupposes an answer.
I'd rather think about "What can I do today/tomorrow/this week/this year/in this life?" That is a lot more digestible than chasing a meaning, or dismissing what could be meaningful about my actions.
I'm already here, so.... What is it under my control that I can do something about? What can I do about it? Something along those lines.
PS:
The overall tone of my response might be nihilist, or having shades of stoicism, but I am personally biased towards Epicureanism (not the present-day meaning, but the more classical meaning) which gives emphasis to ataraxia, or put very loosely, that state of contentedness. It's not about avoiding pain and preferring (temporary) pleasure, but rather a more stable state absent of pain and having pleasure that is brought about by mindful actions. I am not exactly learned in this so please take my words with a pinch of salt (or several).
🥰
First, great choice in reading (Im a fan of Camus as well).
As for the meaning of life thing...
Thats the neat part. You don't.
Thats why in absurdist fiction like Hitchhikers guide to the Galaxy the answer to life, the universe and everything is 42. Its not supposed to make sense and the universe is under no obligation to do so for you (the books even postulate that the universe does not want anyone to know so if someone figures it out it winks out of existance and replaced itself with something weirder, some scientists think this has happened before).
That goes back to Camus point about the remedies for the bleakness of early-mid 20th century philosophy. He proposed three options, Nhilism, a leap of faith (looking at you Kierkegaard), or absurdism, the last being what the doctor perscribes, but also requires the most effort because you have to find your question to the ultimate answer your self... Or not, who cares. Lets go spend some time by a lake that thinks its a gin & tonic.
I hope that I can come around to the absurdist perspective sooner or later, it does seem quite appealing to me, but I'm still yet to be convinced by Camus' argument that the rebellion against the absurd has any more value than your other options. How would you say you find that sort of value?
Lets break down the arguments, and throw up that content warning because were about to do a philosophy.
::: spoiler (Sad dead Dutch/French thinkers)
The first option was to embrace Nhilism, this option is the worst outcome because one of the logical outcomes is if the universe has no meaning, why, as a part of the universe, should you. We're going to drop this option right here because one of the physical representation of this viewpoint is suicide and thats not a healthy state of mind to be in, plus someone would have to clean up your mess.
The second option is Soren Kierkegaards leap of faith, by putting your faith (synonomys with "meaning of life" in this context) in something other than your self, you are no longer responsible for it. A leap of faiths original intent was to join a religion (cough christianity cough), but this is Lemmy and atheists abound in the 21st century so there isnt much point delving into this option here. The point is that your faith is put into an entity higher than yourself. I would argue that it does not need to be an abastract entity like the abrahamic god, gaia or Tom Cruise anymore, anything that can be used to provide a higher objective meaning works (as irrational as it is). This option could be viewed as suicide in a philosopical sense because you cease seeking meaning, because you claim to have already found it.
The final point, rejection of the absurd, is unfortunatly the last option and also requires the most effort. To use it as a personal philosophy involves the rejection of objective meaning and focusing on subjective meaning in spite of the absurdity of it all. That is the part that I feel takes effort, spite (without anger) is a taxing state of mind to maintain, and it does not provide the structures that tends to come with the package of option two. To quote many of the other thread and to use it as a jumping off point, the phrase "Do no harm", the first word is Do, an action, something altered in the universe, something changed. If the universe is meaningless, then to revolt is to simply doing something and putting in the effort to make it a subjectivly good something.
This is the point where people would comicly point out that Camus being very French (Algerian), rebelion and revolt are sorta their national past times, and Ive always gotten a chuckle out of that.
:::
Damn this took all day to write and got a little rambly... Thank you for coming to my TEDTalk.
Thanks for the detailed response! It's helping Camus' writing make a bit more sense, still not 100% convinced but this is getting me closer.
Glad I could help. Remember a personal pilosophy is subjective, your going to have to reach those conclusions on your own. But if you want to talk shop, nerds are here to help.
I’m not the original poster, but their perspective resonates with mine quite well.
We are biological beings of great fragility and complexity. I subscribe to some ‘spiritual’ ideas, but that stops when we get to the persistence of consciousness after death.
Absurdism simply recognizes our biology. Laughter releases feel-good chemicals. It is our refuge from the inexorable grind of raw-dogging reality.
If I had to choose a religion, it would be Bokononism.
“Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly; Man got to sit and wonder 'why, why, why?' Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land; Man got to tell himself he understand.”
The only scripture I can acknowledge
I want to see my planted apple tree bear fruit for the first time (it's looking good this year so far!), and then I want to try splicing in a branch of my neighbours cherry tree, and then I want to keep building gradually to have a mutant tree with all kinds of fruit throughout the season. I'll be the creator of my own Tree of Life.
Small goals, small joys, small triumphs - it's what'll make my life grand, I believe.
I'm going to throw a trigger warning on this next part just in case:
::: spoiler suicide ideation I have been living with major depression for decades. I am taking medication for it, but that just makes it more manageable; it doesn't go away.
I am alive today because killing myself would hurt the people I love. Also, because I have a cat that I love very much, and I don't want him to have to miss me. Also, this is a much more minor driver, but I am excited for new seasons of my favorite shows and for movies I haven't seen and books I haven't read.
I find living to be a burden, but I feel obligated to do it because of my relationships. At the very least, though, I can find entertainment while doing it. :::
You might be underselling entertainment to yourself here. Experiencing creation and your own interpretation of these creations is pretty fucking magical when you think about it.
Logically I am a determinist and a nihilist. It's the only thing that makes sense to me.
But I can't live life like that. Life is lived through feelings and it feels like I have free will. So I feel meaning by contributing positively and that my choices in life matter.
So, I contribute, try to do good, be helpful and nice to people, and also fulfill some hedonistic desires such as good food, lovemaking, shows, etc.
Two phrases I like for this:
There isn’t the meaning of life, there is your meaning of life. This realistic approach recognizes our constantly shifting values and how radically different it can be per person.
And of course Herbert’s
I think B.B. King has the solution:
I've got a good mind to give up on living and go shopping instead.
@SkaraBrae @ocean
Yep. Riding With The King. He knows when the going gets tough the tough go shopping.
https://youtu.be/RYJIc9bjENk
It's a great relief to come to the realization that there is no grand inherent meaning to life, and no need for one. No constant worrying about what the meaning is and how much time you have left to "figure it out", no need to feel like there's some big thing you have to accomplish, no pressure to be someone important or make an impact on the world. No need to find the correct religion or moral code. It's simple: we're all (humans and animals) just trying to live our lives in peace and find happiness, so as for goals: Live and let live. Try to not hurt each other, and better yet, help each other--helping^1^ someone isn't always easy but it's a good feeling. It creates a feeling of meaning/purpose better than most anything else I can think of.
1: besides doing some task for someone, it could also be as simple as a smile, a kind word, or just listening/being there.
By multiplying 21 by 2
I multiply 6 by 9.
Woah woah, not so loud! The psychologists might hear you.
There are three ways to look at the meaning of life.
The realistic: the is no meaning of life, no grand idea behind it.
The biological: the meaning of life is to procreate.
The philosophical: The meaning of life is to make the world better than when you arrived.
Since the first two are boring to talk about, I'll skip right to the third, making the world better than it was when you arrived.
In my case, I am an IT guy, I solve other people's problems and enable them to do their job, making their day slightly better.
I am also a hobby photographer, who share photos for free on the internet, people seem to like them so I have made their day slightly better as well.
Perhaps I can make your day slightly better by linking my Pixelfed: https://metapixl.com/Stoy
Those owl pictures definitely made my day better, cheers :))
Great photos, really. You have a good eye for details, and I like the 'appreciation-snapshot' type of photography, like with the Icom IC-R6, the throttle of the steam ship, the lynx, and the lights in the front landing gear of the airplane.
It reminds me of those moments where you look around, and you notice a pleasing or interesting detail which catches your attention. The more of those moments I have, the more I appreciate the life and the positive in the world we created.
People have put a lot of hours into all the good we have in the world, and sometimes I am reminded through a detail.
Thank you, with the landing gear it was just a happy accident as I was still getting used to my Sigma Contemporary 100-400mm lens.
Happy accidents.
I've had zero interest in taking psychedelics in probably almost 10 years or so at this point (what's the quote, "if you get the message, drop the phone?" something like that?), but I feel as though so much of my understanding of the world, and myself, was facilitated through them. I can't imagine that I would be nearly as self-possessed and self-realized as I am now, if I hadn't gone through those experiences when I was younger.
found an interesting article on the changing of that quote. didn't even know Alan Watts had any overlap with psychedelics! always been a fan of both, this is a joyous day!!
https://medium.com/@allevity/they-killed-alan-watts-quote-8b5f388730fc
My only knowledge of Alan Watts is with relation to psychedelics lol... dude talked about psychedelics a lot.
Isn't the idea of a meaning of life irrelevant if you believe that the universe is deterministic?
Well sure, I can say that objectively it is pointless to try and give my life meaning - but I think that it is still part of the human condition to try and strive for some purpose. More of an emotional need than a philosophical need would be the way I would frame it.
I have a lot of books left to read.
Books and computer games for me
I have so many goals man. I wanna travel the world, meat new people, stay in one of those hostels or that website where you can work to stay. I wanna scuba dive, rock climb, surf, run marathons, hikes and all sorts of stuff before I get too old to do anything fun.
Found the 65 year old planning a trip to SEA
I do wanna go to SEA though. Cause they got good scuba dive spots
To which the old man replies: "Man, what the fuck is up with all of you people coming up here to ask me what the meaning of life is? I moved to the top of the tallest mountain I could find to get away from you all!"
If the true meaning of life is to move to the tallest mountain and isolated yourself from everyone and everything then I don't really want to know it thanks gramps
I did this kind of self-exploration at one point. I used to find all my meaning through work, which I later realized was leaving me feeling unfulfilled. So I lowered my professional ambitions in favor of focusing on the relationships I had with close friends and family.
Then I changed genders. And then those relationships got completely fucked up. And now I feel like I have nothing left to live for.
So I guess if you're looking for meaning, my advice would be to pick something that doesn't depend on other people.
Im not sure. I stay for my family and husband and my animals.
But I wouldn't mind dying. Eternal rest from all the grind. Even if there is nothing after death. It would be nice to just sleep forever.
I live to be a good person. Figuring out what that means is a lot of reading, reasoning, and experimentation. I'm not sure you even need to justify wanting to be a good person, but maybe it is good to do good.
I'm religious so that's pretty much figured out for me lol
Which
*Witch
Roman catholic
Why are people OK with this?
I don't get what you mean
I want to see what happens in the future.
My primary goal is to retire and not have to work anymore.
There is no external meaning. People can provide their own meaning.
Zoom in. I don't care much for the troubles in the world. I vote, but that's that. I care for my family and friends and for my personal development. In that order. Lately it's been mostly the latter. That is all right for a while, but eventually I'll have to put things back in the right order.
I have discovered that the meaning of life (for me) is to just exist. Whatever I do in life, I was meant to and builds on why I am here.
There isn't any... you must provide the meaning to your life on your own
It's shits and giggles all the way down, my friend!
until someone shits and giggles
There is none. You get used to it.
Have experiences and respect other life. That's really it.
The Earth created lifeforms that can understand the universe. Even if there are other conditions out there that can create life like that, it's not common. There is unfathomable empty space between planets and their moons. To say nothing of between planets or stars or galaxies.
Good news! You're one of these rare combinations of matter that can understand the universe. In a real way, we are the universe trying to understand itself. Scientists explore it in a deep way, and should be respected for that, but you don't need a PhD to participate. A single celled organism who figured out better ways to swim in its little pool helped the universe understand itself. The first human to taste a strawberry helped the universe understand itself. Have experiences.
There's a lot of other life also participating in this, and they should be respected, too.
Meaning: try to do no harm, give love where I can, and hopefully leave the world a little better where I touched upon.
Why I keep living (bit of a TW):
::: spoiler TW My own death doesn’t really bother me, but the logic follows that one’s passing radiates pain outwards to those who are still alive. So, to minimize pain to my loved ones, especially my animals who wouldn’t know why I was gone. :::
Also experiencing video games.
Yeah I think I'm in the same boat as you here to be honest, as I can still acknowledge that a negative emotional impact on those I care about also negatively impacts my emotions, so that provides me with some grounding in the topic. Loose grounding though, especially if you take the idea that there is no meaning to its limits.
Do you have memories as a kid where it was pure fun and no expectations? I honestly think that there are 4 types of personalities that people lean towards:
Dogs, dog owners, dog guardians and cats
The dogs just want to have fun, work hard for their owners and play in the back yard.
The dog and cat owners can be cruel, great, fun, abusive, etc., but always have rules that the dog is constantly trying to guess what they are. The cat doesn't care.
The dog and cat guardians are gudes to everyone around them
The cats are what everyone knows about cats.
The dogs and the dog/cat guardians look for meaning in their life.
That’s fair.
I’m of the worldview that while technically there is no “meaning,” doesn’t mean there’s no effect (even if it’s infinitesimal). Just because there’s no purpose in pushing a ball across a table, it still moves when you touch it.
It also places, in philosophical framing, that humans are the creators and arbiters of the concept of our own “meaning.” The fact that we ask of it, and in some cases find there is no such thing from external forces, suggests that it comes from us. However you go from there is the beauty of the notion.
Bit of a side tangent lol but thank you for sharing and engaging :) /gen
Love this way of looking at it tbh, definitely meaning is something that humans come up with, just trying to fine a convincing answer personally. Really appreciate you commenting, feels good to engage with such a lovely community :))
I'm not religious or spiritual so I'm a pure hedonist. I work so that I can maintain a comfortable life for my wife and I with vacations and other treats. In my 30s but not very interested in having children; might be tempted to adopt in my 40s but will need to see where I am at that point in my life.
Essentially the goal is to be happy as a clam (that is a strange phrase now I consider it). It would be nice to author something to leave my name for future generations but I kind of get that from contributing to open source projects when I get the chance.
there is no inherent meaning to life.
i choose to continue living each day because a) i am still enjoying myself enough to stick around, b) i'm a chicken and nothing has motivated me to voluntarily face quicker death just yet, c) i am committed to not fucking up my kids in that particular way if i can continue to avoid it, and d) i do work that matters and eases the suffering of others to create meaning for myself.
I'm looking forward to lunch tomorrow
Well, Camus and Sartre are not exactly about finding meaning, but dealing with the world with no inherent meaning.
No advice here, but I suppose it would be rather difficult to argue for objective meaning of life under atheism, which seems prevalent here on lemmy, so I would consider the feasibility of the existentialist project, in creating meaning or living with the condradiction between our desire of meaning and the meaningless world.
The closest thing to meaning I believe in is derived from evolution. Meaning for me is to lift myself and those around me.
I currently live to make life a little better for animals and other people. And when I have time left over I use creative outlets to create stuff.
Ecclesiastes is a good read. I found "Everything is meaningless" to be very liberating. The book does go on to say what is good: to love God of course, but also to eat, drink and enjoy your work. But the whole thing is worth a read.
The purpose of life is not served by fretting about what its purpose is.
It’s a bit like sitting on a roller coaster rubbing your chin and wondering how to monetize the experience. Just put your hands up and scream. It’s nice.
For me “it’s complicated”. I live with passive suicidal ideation on a daily basis. Some days are better than others, but generally speaking I don’t want to actually kill myself. However, the idea of being dead does not bother me as it ought other people.
That being said, I do stick around especially for my two sons. I could not bring myself to not be a part of their lives; especially right now as they are 12 and 10. I don’t want to rob them of their father, and I do want to see them through to when they have a life of their own and have their own family (whatever that may look like for them).
As for meaning in life: ultimately everything we do is only for the living. When I die, my life only matters to the people whom I was closest (my kids). Beyond that, who cares right? I have no delusions that I’ll be remembered by anyone else.
But I do have other things I’d like to achieve: find another love of my life, travel the world more, complete as much of my bucket list as possible (e.g. skydiving, bungee jumping, scuba diving, etc).
i only do what i want to do, no more or less
When I was young, raised religious, there was an intense focus on finding purpose in life, almost as if there is no value to life itself without some end goal.
After leaving religion and superstition behind everything that is left is remarkable, fascinating, and beautiful. There's no need for life to have a purpose, a sunset doesn't need to clock in to work, a rock doesn't have an active role to perform but it's still fine for it to exist, us too.
I used to wish there was done grander purpose, but have you ever considered where that ends? Say you do have an ultimate purpose on earth, to collect all the smeeshmups, you do it and then what? Say your purpose is to be a good little Christian person and go to heaven, then what? Glorify some monkey with an anus for eternity because he agreed you did a good job? Yikes
I definitely don't buy into there being some big thing that everyone should be working for in their life, but I do think that it's good for humans to develop meaning and purpose on a personal level - we need some drive in life or everything is just arbitrary and you have no reason to for one option to be preferable over another, if truly there is nothing that matters.
Yeah "grand purpose" is almost exclusively for losers. Why is my current purpose not good enough? It reeks of snake oil upsell
I don't think there is meaning. I've never read Camus or Sartre and don't really know what determinism is (quick read on Wikipedia, I think I agree with it?), but
I keep living because it makes me feel good for the most part, and because the thought of dying makes me feel bad for the most part.
I think one of the best phrases I've heard from the atheist community is "Do No Harm". Very similarly, the Golden Rule, which almost every civilization has a version of, says "Do to others that which you would have them do to you". Beyond that, there are no rules one must abide by. If you would wish others to stand up for you when you cannot, then do so for them. If you wish that people would help you when you are in need, do so to them.
Ultimately, you create your own meaning from the little things you find joy in and if you follow the Golden Rule then you can help others do the same.
It feels like a paradox to me: the meaning of life is to find meaning in life.
Life is for two things. 1. Experience 2. Love.
I think I won at life.
For the meaning in life to is explore and play with my best friend…my wife. Even my career has switched to something that feels more like play than a grind for a corporation who enjoys the lion’s share of my labour.
I stopped looking for external meaning in life a long time ago.
Look into nihilism (like actualy nihilism, not like "hurr durr I hate everything so I'm going to make the world suck" people who label themselves "nihilist"). It's actually very freeing.
Edit: Just saw your "Context," so it appears you're on that track already. I guess I lean more toward the, "there is no meaning, so stop wasting time and effort trying to find or invent it" side than the "create your own meaning" side.
Yeah, I mean, ultimately meaning in life is what you make of it and the ideals you believe in. That varies from person to person. For me, it's those nights I can go outside and look at the dark night sky with a sea of light from other worlds, dream about going to them, and remembering how small our world is, and how much beauty there is in the universe beyond our own homes and lives. But, it's not that for everyone, sometimes it's the small stuff, a nice hot bath, or a really great cup of tea, or just going out in the sunshine on a cool crisp morning.
Ultimately, there isnt a right answer to this question. But I think it gets at the heart of it just by asking the question, life is what you make out of it.
Life is what you make it. You get one life so make it count in some way. I ain't the boss of you, you decide what that is, just do something.
I like to learn and grow. I've settled into a good career and a family so now I'm thinking about projects I can take on. And I'll see where those take me.
Meanwhile, try to live a life that gets celebrated when you're gone.
You're in luck, there's a whole movie devoted to this very topic.
Although, basically, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations.
I keep living at this point simply because God wants me alive. If He didn't, He would have killed me by now. When I was in a really dark place (I'm doing better now), I realised that killing myself was pointless, because if it was my time to die, God would take me from this life regardless. So God must still have a plan and uses for me and thus, I should still be alive, and that's meaning enough for the fact that my body continues to operate.
Not to bully your belief here but how would you justify this with the fact that God allows many really bad people to live? Just curious of understanding this mindset and I hope this doesn't offend you.
Quite a few reasons I can give:
Through bad people, good can still happen. For example, the passion narrative. Bad people caused the execution of Jesus, but through that, we believe we can get salvation
Some people got a positive opportunity out of wars, COVID, etc (The lockdown may have saved me, it pulled me out of a dark place)
God is patient. Bad people can still repent and come to God.
Bad things on earth are actually eternally insignificant if you believe that eventually all of it will be wiped out, which plays into the patience aspect. Just say you're in heaven for two thousand years, you're not really going to worry anymore about 100 years you spent on earth that were absolutely horrible.
These are just my thoughts on the matter. A lot of people do have varied responses to the "problem of evil"
I tried to justify this (if one insists on the existence of a god), through the argument that dangerous and bad things exist in nature as well, such as storms, lightning, floodings, earthquakes, and chimps that go to war with each other etc. and likewise, violent and bad things exist among humans.
However, I cant really convince myself that it's comparable. Actual evil did not really exist before be came along and started torturing each other. (The church and christians have been through many iterations of hard questions and tough answers to their own riddles, and overall, I think it has been a sum positive for humanity, in trying to explain, and to figure out the question of evil in general.)
So no, I don't have a, from the hip, justification from god, why evil people would still exist. Perhaps the world just is a better place, with snakes in it, than without. It gives us something good to do?
I can however confidently state that really bad people have been here among humanity many times before, and they have all, in one way or another, left again, and somehow we manage to sustain a world, that is continuously improving and trying to become a better and better place. Getting rid of bad people, snakes, and natural dangers.
I know that there are serious crises and problems we still have to solve, but we tend to forget all the past evils that we have defeated. We are not being actively overrun by mongols from the east, and not every family loses several small children before they reach the age of 5. Most people have enough, and we still keep working to make sure that fewer and fewer people will suffer in the future.
Ngl that's a really unsatisfying position imo. There are and have been people who had nothing but suffered in their entire existence with zero meaning like slave babies born with extreme deformities. This thought exercise completely dispels any idea of a present god in my point of view.
Yeah I agree. There are some absolutely ridiculous explanations and excuses, to answer plotholes like that. "The Lord works in mysterious ways". We have more than 1500 years of made up explanations, to solve made up statements.
I've got a lot of respect for theists, and would truly love to be convinced of this sort of perspective. Thanks for bringing it to the table!
Thank you! I don't want to seem pushy or pressuring, but what eventually convinced me was the historicity of Jesus Christ (as opposed to scientific arguments, etc) and it kind of hinged off of that.
This is what I watched.
Thank you, will give it a try! I wouldn't be able to call myself a nonresistant nonbeliever if I resisted this :)
Okay, I've watched the videos, but unfortunately they don't fix my main issue with the bible, that being there are no contemporary (as in written within the subsequent decades), non-Christian sources for any miracle alleged in the bible. In particular, the dead rising and walking around the towns on Good Friday as talked of in the Gospels isn't recorded in any Roman source we have from the time, and I think that such an act would have been recorded. It seems to me that it is more likely that these stories of miracles survived with Christians for a few hundred years, before being disseminated into the popular account of Jesus' life as Christianity grew in popularity.
They also don't fix any of my other problems with Christianity, such as the problem of evil, principally relating to animal suffering, or divine hiddenness. Still, I feel more informed than before, so thank you!
Matthew 27:51-54
I struggled with the tomb openings as well. An interpretation I've heard for it is that they were spiritually resurrected, to show that they were free from Hades and appeared in spirit (Christians commonly refer to this as "The Harrowing of Hell") to show that. There isn't much of an indication that they were there for too long - the tombs breaking open could have been a result of the earthquake as well.
I think it is important to remember how records survived- There is no historical written record of Pompeii (which likely held a lot of high ranking Romans) being destroyed. Just a single reference to it by Pliny the Younger. It was likely witnessed by a quarter of a million people, though, yet all we know about it is archaeology. So I believe it is actually completely possible that the only written record we have of the saints breaking free from the tombs in a rebellious city on the edge of the empire is from Matthew. John even said more stuff happened that he couldn't even write down.
John 21:25 ESV
It is also worth noting a similar objection existed to the existence of Pontius Pilate until 1961 when they found a rock with his name carved onto it, and from there it was treated as historical fact.
I believe how stuff was recorded then compared to now differs greatly. Something happens in a village here and several articles are written and published for the world to see. While back then, someone had to write it down on paper, and for that to survive until now the paper had to either not get destroyed over 200 years, or be copied several times.
I suppose my issue there is that you have shown the reasons I believe in the other events, but not in Jesus' miracles: we have archeological evidence for Pompeii, and a separate source for Pontias Pilate. If Pompeii had just been the offhand reference by Pliny then I don't know if it would be so easy to believe. But I've grown up able to literally see the ash covered bodies. And I think you've summed up the issue with Pilate exactly, that he was only known of from one source, until we had another corroborating it.
Should any extra evidence present itself for the rising of the dead on Good Friday, I'll be a lot more likely to come around, but I still don't think that it can be appropriately corooborated.
I really appreciate you taking the time to talk this out, I'm definitely something of a bible novice so your help is very appreciated :)
The thing is, what archaeological evidence could you produce for Jesus' miracles? Same with dead people walking about for a few days. In terms of social status, Jesus was a peasant. Possibly the stepson of a carpentry business owner (since He seems to be well educated and referred to as a carpenter) so not growing up living in dirt, per say, but was still just an ordinary dude. I've heard some people make a case for the Shroud of Turin, but I wouldn't base my faith on it. As people also have opposite arguments and it kind of randomly appeared in like the fourteenth century. In terms of archaeology, I believe the best thing we have is evidence for the Church itself- followers of Jesus. If you don't mind me posting another YouTube video, here you go
Thanks for the video, will check it out!
I think that my main issue is that this stuff is just straight up supernatural, to the point where I would need hard evidence, for example contemporary accounts from people neutral towards or opposing Christianity before I could believe it. I'm not going to commit to believing in something unless there is appropriate evidence for it, and Jesus' miracles just happened too long ago to be verifiable.
I really appreciate you taking the time to talk to me about this!
I am not sure to be fair, right now I already have two goals, I want to finish my transition and I want to love and be loved for who I am. Once that is done I suppose I will feel fulfilled for a while, I might make art afterwards or something, I like making games and stuff so I'd likely try to do that I think !
My goal is to be happy and better the lives of as many people as I can!
Hey, this is broken. What if I dedicate my life fixing it, that would be cool. That’s how I found my meaning.
I ask myself this simple question: Are you making things better? I find meaning in helping others, and this is my guiding principle. I hope that when my time comes, I can say that I did make things better, that I did help others.
Pets, always work
I live to be in peace, hang out with my cat and have fun. That’s pretty much it. Right now having fun is trying to fix an old radio.