YSK that chiropractors are not medical doctors and "Systematic reviews... have found no evidence that chiropractic manipulation is effective"
"Systematic reviews of controlled clinical studies of treatments used by chiropractors have found no evidence that chiropractic manipulation is effective, with the possible exception of treatment for back pain.[8] A 2011 critical evaluation of 45 systematic reviews concluded that the data included in the study "fail[ed] to demonstrate convincingly that spinal manipulation is an effective intervention for any condition."[10] Spinal manipulation may be cost-effective for sub-acute or chronic low back pain, but the results for acute low back pain were insufficient.[11] No compelling evidence exists to indicate that maintenance chiropractic care adequately prevents symptoms or diseases.[12]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ChiropracticOpen linkView original on lemmy.ca1638
Comments365
Anything a chiropractor can do that will actually help, a PT can do better. They'll also teach you what exercises to do to prevent needing to see them again.
A chiropractor will just tell you to come to them more often, and take more of your money over time.
You can save a lot of money by just going to a masseuse instead of a chiropractor. People attribute the positive feeling they get from attention to well being improvements, and pseudoscience practitioners certainly achieve that at a premium price. If it's attention you want, get a massage, otherwise go to a PT and get some real help.
Also I think a massage therapist will tend to be more educated on the muscles and how they work together than a masseuse
A massage therapist tends not to provide the "extras" that you can get from a strip mall masseuse.
I come for the extras.
Just make sure they're not a cop first.
That would not be a happy ending to the story.
Depends on for whom. A good bust makes nearly everybody happy.
I don’t care, I’ll come on a cop.
In some places and depending on the specific details, the punishment for that offense wouldn't include jail time. Instead of a crime, it's just a penile code violation.
I swear, your honor, he just bent down and kissed my bottom!
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
I swear, your honor, he just bent down and kissed my bottom!
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Or after the extras.
That's what they're for
My wife, bless her innocent heart, still doesn't get this. She's been to every strip mall, Groupon massage studio in the area and is constantly like "wow, I can't figure out why these $75/hr massages are so hit or miss."
I have tried explaining to her that it's because she doesn't have a penis, but she still doesn't get it.
How prevalent are these? I’ve always wanted to try but can never tell which is a safe place to approach
I can't believe I know this, but RubMaps used to (might still be?) a thing. If you looked at the outside of them on Google Maps you could very quickly start to pick up on the patterns among the listed locations.
do you want happy ending?
yes, heck you know what, lets have a happy middle too.. and a happy beginning.. ok make the whole thing happy please!
As a massage therapist that used to work in education (director of education at a massage school and taught anatomy/pathology) results will vary wildly across the States. The majority of states only started licensing in the last 10-15 years, and of course requirements for licensing and supervision varies. Some schools teach enough anatomy to get their students to pass the tests, then focus their time teaching spa type massage (aromatherapy, wraps, hot stones, etc.) or energy work. Not saying there's anything wrong with that, but it serves a different purpose.
There are definitely schools that exist that focus more on therapeutic/rehabilitative work, but even then the challenge is finding a therapist with an up to date approach who doesn't buy the old school "no pain no gain" who kicks the shit out of you. Massage shouldn't hurt. But if your find the right therapist for you, they're worth their weight in gold.
Massages should hurt if your body is full of deep tissue knots like mine is. My rhomboids and forearms are basically just knots most of the time.
But that's largely on me for not stretching.
Yup. At my first massage appointment, before I even got on the table, she told me where I hurt and why I was hurting that way. And she was 100% correct.
Just FYI, the generally preferred term these days is "massage therapist." Last I heard "masseuse" and "masseur" (the masculine version) have an implicit sexual connotation that "massage therapist" does not. Unless that's what you were recommending instead of chiropractic, in which case carry on!
Also it has a more professional connotation. RMTs go to school and work hard to be qualified and capable of their jobs.
As my sister who is a MT always said: "A massage therapist gives you a massage, a masseuse gives you a happy ending."
This. I'm seriously considering finding the money for an at home sauna. Get my muscles nice and warm and relaxed and then stretch the shit out of them.
Just be careful. There is such a thing as over stretching. I fucked up my knees stretching after a hot yoga session and could barely walk for a couple of years.
Everything in moderation.
One of the worst overstretches I did was in a pool. With my body weight canceled out I could get into deeper stretches, like by putting my leg up on the edge of the pool. Afterwards I realized I'd overdone it. lol
That must have sucked/hurt 🤕 ... But it sounded like a real funny story for some reason...
Mi bad...
You don't have to tell me anything, seriously. I have fucked up my back no less than 3 times. The last time I fucked my back up was about a year ago and I busted my shoulder at the same time. My back is still tight and off in a few places and while my shoulder isn't at 100% I have like 90% of rom back and more to come as I keep working on it. I have and continue to fix myself all without the help of a pt.
I had hoped that a line like that wouldn't be taken at face but I guess the Amelia Bedelias are making there way from reddit.
I would also point out that any pro quackocracker post you see here is the one time they might have helped someone just out of random chance, those people are loud and tell everyone how great their quackocracker is. Its simple confirmation bias, they have a sample size of one, themselves, this is not how data works.
I go to a sports physiotherapy group. Much better results when the goal is to help me recover so I don't need to come to them.
You can also search out a GP that is a DO Instead of an MD in the US.
They still learn osteopathic manipulation, which is a broader form of manipulation not limited to the spine that helps with stretching-type exercises. But they are certified (often with the same board exams even) and licensed on par with MDs. Many clinics have DOs among their providers.
Important caveat of "in the US". In most countries, osteopaths are basically the same as chiropractors. In the US, DO licensing is the same as MD licensing, so they do have to learn real science and medicine in addition to the fake science and medicine of osteopathy. Personally, I wouldn't aim for a DO as my Dr., but if I already had one that I liked, I wouldn't worry about it too much. Osteopathic schools are easier to get into than medical schools, cause we have more people that want to get their MD than we have schools to teach them, so plenty of those people become DO's.
This is incorrect. You are likely confused due to the fact that the names of the fields are similar.
Osteopathy /=/ osteopathic
I'll discuss the fields as the are in the US, as I am not aware of how they are in other countries.
The AOA only recently (2010) decided to recommend that DO's no longer be called osteopaths. As they still practice and teach osteopathic manipulation, it's not inaccurate to still refer to them as osteopaths. When they abandon that pseudoscience and turn completely to evidence based medicine, I'll refer to them as DO's. Right now, all DO's are osteopaths, but not all osteopaths are DO's.
It doesn't have to do with homeopathy. Osteopathy is it's own pseudoscience alternative medicine and it is what they're trained as a side to their medical training. They do act like this training somehow makes them more holistic than MDs, but that's been proven to be largely false and they generally do not use that osteopathic manipulation in their practice.
Some non-doctor osteopaths might use homeopathy, but the basic theory of what osteopathy is remains pseudoscience even when it's done by DOs.
Osteopathy = Osteopathic.
Thank you, I didn't realize that homeopathy was not general term - I thought it was a generalized term for alternative medicine that wasn't eastern medicine, but I was wrong.
Anyway, I do still have some things to clear up for you.
You still seem to think that DOs are spending their 300+ additional hours after the MD learning the pseudoscience, which isn't the case. Those hours are spent with neurologists, orthopedics, physical therapists, and other fellowships and residencies only provided by the MEDICAL SCHOOL - which would absolutely not allow any pseudoscience within their walls. Yes, they might do very minor manipulation in their practices, but it's what's learned through neurologists, physical therapists, or orthopedists, etc. (in addition to their MD residenciea just like the MDs in family practice, OB, surgery, dermatology, oncology, etc). The goal of a DO is to treat a patient as the sum of their parts rather than symptomatically.
Patient-first rather than symptom-first. (DO vs MD)
Osteopathic rather than allopathic. (DO vs MD)
-If I go to an MD with an earache, I'll have my ear checked out and maybe find nothing wrong but walk out with Prednisone to see if it helps. Prednisone does nothing but make me gain water weight.
-If I go to a DO with an earache, I'll have my ear checked out and maybe find nothing wrong, but he might think since there was nothing obvious that maybe there's a nerve pinched near the top of my neck so he'll have me stand to look at my posture and notice that I'm standing awkwardly with my hips not level, checks out my ankles and realizes I've started to lean in on one of my ankles and writes an Rx for a custom insole and exercises to strengthen my ankle. The issue with the ankle was causing my hips to lean, which caused my back to curve the other way to compensate, which pinched a nerve in my neck, which caused an earache. Wear the insole while strengthening the ankle, earache goes away.
(This is a true story of something that happened to me, not an example of every experience with a MD or a DO)
There is nothing precluding and MD from also searching for the underlying cause, but allopathic medicine looks to treat symptoms.
Osteopathy is 100% the movement of muscles and bones and not taught in medical school.
Osteopathy /=/ osteopathic
What you're describing is a pseudoscience. It's a pseudoscience that IS allowed in osteopathic medical schools because, you guessed it, they're osteopathic. It is not evidence based medicine. I understand that DOs proclaim thatt they are more holistic than other practitioners. As I said, studies have shown that is not the case.
https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.7556/jaoa.2014.166/html
https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M22-3723
Edit: To be clear, I'm an RN, and we're taught a whole hell of a lot more pseudoscience than DO's are.
I have to ask: what do you think "holistic" means? You've said twice (once in each comment I've know replied to) that DOs "think they are more holistic than others"
Do you think it relates to holy?
It doesn't. It means that's parts of something are interconnected and can only be considered in reference to the whole of itself.
Which is the key difference between osteopathic and allopathic medicine, so of course they believe they are more holistic.
I'm not sure what you were trying to prove with those links. The first explains that while evidence based medicine uses statistics, it is a specific way of using data to determine clinical care - that it can determine the best route of care for the largest group of people that works most of the time, which is great for most people most of the time...but what about when you fall outside that group (my addition - yes, they could try the second choice when the first doesn't work or the third next, but that takes time and suffering). Whereas DOs consider the the first choice option as well as the outside options by evaluating everything. Consider the story above of my earache. That's what the link was describing. I'm not sure what you got from it, or what that has to do with being holistic (though considering outside treatment options that might involve other parts of the body would be considered holistic). The thing is, statistics are great to describe how a population reacts to treatments, not an individual. Appendectomies have a 95% success rate, but that doesn't mean that you have a 95% chance of surviving one. But evidence based treatments are based on the success rates, not the individual - that's where the patient-first idea come into play, DOs consider the patient as a whole rather than only the statistics when the statistics don't line up with the patient.
The second link says that healthcare costs between MDs and DOs are similar. Neither is more expensive, neither is less expensive. I'm not sure what that has to do with being holistic (either the actual definition or whatever you may think it means).
You're making the claim that what I described previously is pseudoscience because a DO saw that my ankle has turned inward and offered ankle strengthening exercises. Ankle strengthening exercises aren't pseudoscience, there is data behind it - the idea that it could cause ear pain due to the other issues it causes certainly would not be common, but it is explainable. Pseudoscience is something that uses no explanatory reasoning and avoids peer review. DOs routinely publish their findings.
That’s why I specifically said in the US. You have to be careful, though, some DO schools are easier to get into than some MD schools but there are also DO schools that are harder to get into than some MD schools (MD schools in the Caribbean for example) so unless you are being hyper vigilant about which school your GP went to, you’re still just relying on the fact that they all passed the same or equivalent boards anyway.
Actually, outside the US, the DO training is 7 years, same as a medical doctor. I chose a DO for my primary care doctor because they have papatory skills (i.e. they actually touch someone) that regular doctors refer out.
Really depends on the country, though. Many countries don't have "DO" as a profession cause they only need one type of evidence based medical degree, so anyone who does osteopathy is basically equivalent to a chiropractor or other type of witch doctor.
I can definitely respect the perception that they interact with you more, and I'm glad you have a doctor that works well for you.
In my corner of the world, most CPs are also PTs. Or rather the other way around: they use chiropractic as one of many therapeutic means in their portfolio. I have to say, I very much appreciate this approach, as it relives the initial pain/discomfort but also addresses the underlying problem.
This is a great point. My MiL is a chiropractor (a non-quacky one), and she incorporated a lot of PT into her practice. Additionally, I read a couple years ago that PTs are beginning to incorporate the good things from chiro (whatever they are. I'm not a doctor) into their own practice.
A roundabout way of saying that we learned some things from chiro, but PT was always the future.
I see my chiropractor once ever couple of years, I do most my own chiropractic stuff myself so I only visit her when I can't deal with it. She knows I'm not gonna come back for a mother year or 3 so she doesn't even tell me to book.
If you are going to one that does, you are going to the wrong one. There are a lot of quacks in professions and some of them are AMA licensed doctors too.
I was very skeptical of them until a friend recommended one he personally knew for my painful shoulder - he even offered to pay for the visit if it didn't help. I was amazed when I walked out of the office completely pain free.
Many professional sports athletes seek out massage and chiro with good results because they cannot afford miss events and can't test positive for the drugs that many conventional doctors would push.
There is a place for all avenues of remedies depending on the problem. Incompetents can be found in all professions. That said, is far too easy for a poser to set themselves up as a chiropractor.
seems like thats the crackocracker industry problem, they simply dont have any standards. I'll grant you there may be some crackocrackers who actually have some skills... maybe, but if a patient has to go to 20 of them to find "that one good one", then that industry is garbage
A lot of it can be done at home without a pt. Foam rollers and yoga mats are your friend. Even better if you can get a second pair of hands that know how to pop a back properly.
Physical therapists have definitely taught me reparative exercises that I would never in a million years have thought of on my own. PT is a god damned miracle drug.
I'm not saying that they aren't and can't be helpful. What I'm saying is that thanks to the internet and tons of books on the subject you can do a lot of stuff yourself without spending the money or the time going to a therapist.
If you need it, you need it, but some of us can learn most of this stuff elsewhere and/or go to a pt for a few lessons and then handle the rest at home.
Also I'm talking about what a chiropractor would do, not what a pt would do. To put both on the same level is an insult to everyone who isn't a chiropractor.
That's not exactly the truth.
Yes, there are plenty of medical practitioners that poorly represent their profession. I'm sure you could easily apply the same logic here to PT, NP, DO, MD, etc.
What should be emphasized is that Chiropractic has heavily evolved, like any other healthcare field and there is a high degree of overlap between PT and DC methodologies. So much so, PT has lobbied for adoption of joint manipulation.
A good DC won't limit themselves to 5 minutes visits for a quick adjustment. A good DC is evidence-based, incorporates rehab and education, and provides care to the body and systems.
A chiropractor is way cheaper than PT. Money is such a limiting factor for so many people that, while your advice is true, it has a similar vibe to telling a broke person with car trouble to just pay a mechanic to fix it. It's the best option but I don't blame them for trying something less expensive.
Paying money to get nothing and still have the original problem is not the inexpensive option though. These con artists are just stealing from people who can't afford to be stolen from.
But maybe you get a bonus, worse, problem from the chiro? Got to look on the bright side : D
I stopped reading at bonus, where do I sign??
Medicine has a history of being wrong while we learn which things work and which things don't. Supplementary, Complementary and Alternative Medicine has a history of being wrong while its practitioners try to carve out a niche in the dark spots that we haven't figured out yet and then dig in to fight to the death (of their patients) once their foundations are shown to be wrong. Look at homeopathy, for example: proven to be wrong time and time again but still you'll find homeopathic products on shelves in stores across the world, even in areas with regulated markets.
Just because there are things we haven't fully explained or discovered yet doesn't mean that the first snake oil salesman to stake a claim on the unknown owns it. Being right takes time and new age woo-woo garbage isn't a shortcut worth taking.
I also wouldn't blame someone for trying a cheaper option, but I WOULD blame the "cheaper option" mechanic if he sold you a $100 pair of aura cleansing fuzzy dice to keep your engine from overheating?
Then blame the healthcare system that charges people thousands of dollars for a routine doctor's appointment.
I already do.
But I don't see how that disaster justifies selling snake oil.
Jesus fuck, it's like you guys are intentionally misunderstanding what I'm saying. All I've said is that I get why people go see chiropractors instead of doctors. I'm not advocating anything. I'm trying to have a discussion with you people and all you'll do is set up straw men and virtue signal at them. Consider me done with this bullshit
If that's all you said, I agreed with that part. Why did you keep arguing with me?
I see people doing this so often (on the internet especially) and it honestly baffles me. The best I've ever been able to rationalize it is that people are often far more interested in arguing their own points and saying what they believe than actually listening to and understanding others or having a real debate. That may be overly simplistic but it's how I cope.
When is the last time you went to a hospital and saw a chiropractic department? When was the last time you went to a hospital and saw an orthopedics department? I have never had an MD recommend I see a chiropractor, but I have been sent to an orthopedist who sent me to PT. It worked.
That's entirely beside the point. The question is, when was the last time you left a doctor's office with a $40 bill? If you don't have money to pay a doctor then you'll never even hear their advice much less be in a position to take it.
Which is completely irrelevant to the legitimacy of chiropractic.
PTs are also broadly not very helpful with very limited knowledge. I don’t think I've ever met somebody who was genuinely helped by PT, though I’m sure some of them out there take their jobs seriously.
Have you met somebody that ACTUALLY does their PT suggested exercises? I do know some people who said that PT isn't working but then again, they don't even follow basic recommendations.
Yes, several. Including myself for a couple different issues growing up. Eventually I learned enough about the human body to realize how useless the exercises were for the problems I was having exercised properly which finally sorted me out. I just figured I’d gotten unlucky with the two I had, but the more people I meet who’ve spent time in PT the more I realized they might not be as competent as you’d hope they’d be.
Like any profession that is service based it is "your results may vary". My pt has helped me with exercises that have helped me get past tennis elbow and shoulder tendonitis.
Physical therapy changed my life. Not just that, but my PTs actually had knowledge and experience with my rare condition -- more so than any doctor I've ever seen to this day. I'm sorry that hasn't been your experience, but I assure you that there are serious PTs out there.
There are always unicorns in every profession, though I’m glad it worked out so well for you.
in my country a PT is a personal trainer, so I understand where you’re coming from if that’s what you mean. But I think in this instance PT means physiotherapist
Oh no I’m referring to physiotherapist
its not just not helpful, it can be deadly/dangerous.
strokes are triggered by these idiots.
Strokes, but also broken necks.
And some of these quacks do "adjustments" on children and infants.
Saw that on episode of Bullshit with Penn and Teller. Anyone who would do that to a baby should be imprisoned for life.
Yeah, the last time I went to a chiropractor for back pain, they also "corrected" my neck which in the past felt good but this time it just immediately pulled a muscle in my neck and left me in pain and barely able to turn my head for weeks.
It's better now, but I'll never go back to a chiropractor again because of the risk of making things worse for essentially no benefit.
Also animals, I saw a video of someone doing it to a pit bull and after he cracked the dogs neck the pit gave him the "I'm going to rip your fucking throat out" look.
It's straight up animal abuse.
https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/full/10.1161/01.str.32.5.1054
Thank your pointing this out. It's not just any stroke too, it's primarily vertebral/basilar artery distribution strokes. Those supply the brain stem which includes such necessary functions as control of breathing and consciousness. You don't want a stroke anywhere, but particularly not there.
Some chiropractors might swing back that, you've only showed correlation not causation. Well, when we have no clear evidence of chiropractic neck manipulation being helpful for anything, and we have a likely very dangerous correlation, the clinical parsimony is just not there. So no one is going to run that study (give a large amount of people neck manipulation, a large amount of people no neck manipulation, and compare rates of stroke that occur afterwards), it would be very unethical, no institutional review board would ever approve that study as ethical to perform.
And it makes a lot of sense too, the vertebral artery is encased in the neck vertebrae, so violent movements of the neck vertebrae can stretch and tear those arteries. Those tears, called a dissection, can sometimes obstruct blood flow all on their own, but more often create a spot for blood clots to form that then move onward into the brain and basilar artery (since there's turbulent blood flow and a defect in the smooth artery wall that normally prevents your blood from clotting). So please, no violent neck movements for any reason, chiropractor or otherwise.
This. My friend had a triple stroke shortly after having neck manipulation done by a standin for his usual chiropractor. Luckily he survived, but it has very much opened my eyes to how dangerous it can be.
Yeah, I was coming in here to say similar.
Chiropractors aren't just not effective, they are fucking dangerous.
But boy, oh boy. Say this to a believer and get ready to loose an afternoon.
That’s alright. A chiropractor can tighten up that afternoon for ya.
Indeed. I’ve got a chiropractor in my family, and I actively avoid talking to them about their work because I’ve always been convinced that it causes more harm than good. I think they finally got the hint after the 1000th time I refused their offer of an adjustment. They do some genuinely bizarre stuff beyond the standard adjustments, and talk about it like it’s proven science.
Bizarre stuff like what?
“Testing” for allergies or nutritional deficiencies by holding a sample up to your forehead and then applying downward pressure to your outstretched arms to “determine” sensitivity. Weird stuff like that.
Edit: I believe it’s called Applied Kinesiology, but that just makes it sound legit. Which it’s not.
I always knew it was pseudoscience, but damn, how is that even allowed?
lobbyists, I presume
your insurance would much rather pay for someone to touch your back than pay for someone to provide medical care.
The core tenet of chiropractics is that "life force" flows through the spine and "blocks" in that is what causes diseases/pains.
Most people think they are some kind of spine experts, while in reality it is nothing like that and more like concepts of Chi and meridians.
The thing is, a lot of chiros don't delve into that crap, because it's such obvious bullshit, but some do and will tell you in all sincerity that cracking that L6-8 might just kill your cancer.
In any case, stay far far away from them.
In a roundabout way, this can be true. No host, no disease.
Scorched earth medicine, effective in 100% of cases! Life's overrated anyway.
Chiropractic was invented by a guy who learned it from a ghost.
Who knows better about relaxing the spine than a ghost that doesn't have one?
People should also be aware of the growing number of alternative mental therapists popping up everywhere due to the shortage in actual psychologists.
They are nothing more than life coaches with a six-month certificate in whatever-the-fuck, most of which are disguised as Masters qualifications from wherever-the-fuck.
These people, whoever-the-fuck they are, need to be regulated.
Or run out of town like Ye olde snake oil salesmen.
I sense a John Oliver episode any day about this
I re-read some of the comments in his voice, and it sounds right.
can see this in the future for the next fascist conservative president - MY CHIROPRACTOR SAYS I'M FINE!
Chiropractors and osteopaths only exist in such large numbers because they bill less to insurers than actual doctors & hospitals. So of course insurers are going to promote these quacks because it's cheaper than somebody going to an actual physiotherapist for treatment.
There should really be legislation that requires insurers to cover science & evidence based treatments. If someone wants woo it should be at additional expense to them, not part of a standard policy.
I am actually really torn about this one, on one hand I had one episode of back pain that lasted nearly a year, swearing up and down the whole time that chiropractors were basically witch doctors and that I would never go to one. However, when I finally caved and went to one he fixed my issue after two sessions. On the other hand, my more recent back pain was not helped after I saw my chiropractor four times. In addition, I work as a nurse and have now seen at least three patients come in with vertebral dissections, essentially a stroke, that occurred literally right after they had seen a chiropractor for neck pain. Anecdotally, I would say it isn't worth the risk. Had I done physical therapy and used bought a tens unit the first time I'm sure it would have also fixed it without the chiro, but I was lazy
If you have spinal or neck pain, see a licensed physiotherapist. If you have a toothache, do you go to a toothiologist to have your teeth punched? Or do you go to a doctor of dental medicine?
I mean a chiro would pop your back for your toothache.
I mean, if you want to re-shape your nose you can either go to a cosmetic surgeon, or run full speed ahead into a brick wall. Either method would accomplish the mission. One is cheaper, one is more predictable, both are potentially lethal.
Cosmetic surgeons are still surgeons though, even if the procedure is unnecessary.
typically you see your PCP first.
PCP is the one who makes referral to other physician specialists, like a pain and rehabilitation medicine physician. the PM&R's attempt to identify the pain generators through a series of different types of injections sometimes accompanied w/ PT, OT, MT, and possibly chiro.
when those fail (conservative treatment), the Pt is referred to either a neurosurgeon or orthopedic surgeon.
If you see a youtuber calling themselves Dr. and giving out medical advice, 99% they are a chiropractor.
I met one of these in an airport bar! He introduced himself as a doctor then when I asked what specialty, he said he's a chiropractor. "Ohhhh, so not a doctor doctor."
He was not impressed.
I used to work with a neurologist who was formerly a chiropractor until he realized it was a bunch of quackery and decided to become a real doctor.
You mean they got a Ph.D.? ;-)
He also has a Ph.D. strangely enough.
Cool, so a real Doctor, then. ;-) I had a thing for getting letters after my name, and reached a certain goal, then gave up on the ego.
A medical doctorate would be more relevant to a neurologist.
Well, to be fair, some "doctor doctors" aren't even doctors.
"Medical Doctors" don't necessarily have a PhD, but colloquially we call them "doctors"
A doctor is anybody with a doctorate.
Somehow, colloquially, we came to only refer to MD's ( Doctor of Medicine ) as doctors.
A PhD is just a Doctor of Philosophy. A PhD doesn't make anyone a doctor more so than an MD or a JD. Yes, even a lawyer is a doctor.
Anybody with a doctorate degree is a doctor. And just for fun, all a doctorate means is the highest degree awarded by a graduate school or other approved educational organization. Feel like I'm getting too technical with this so I'm just going to stop writing this comment.
In Germany, if you are a medical doctor with a PhD, you are addressed as Herr Doctor Doctor.
And if your specialty is the protein filament that grows from skin follicles in mammals, would you be a Haar Herr Doctor Doctor?
Just because he's not a Doctor of Medicine doesn't mean he's not a doctor. A Doctor of Chiropractic is exactly that, regardless of its questionable merits.
There's a distinct difference between "I'm Dr. Johnson" and "My name is John and I'm a doctor."
At least in American English. It's also very arrogant to introduce yourself as Dr. So and So outside of a professional setting if you're any kind of doctor.
Not to mention he doubled down and said in Texas he's a primary care provider that can practice medicine when I pushed back a little. He wasn't being ambiguous, he saw himself equivalent to a MD.
I was searching for humorous podcasts over the weekend, and found Say More with Dr.? Sheila - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/say-more-with-dr-sheila/id1707936869 - I hope you enjoy it.
I think you’re exaggerating. Quite a few of them are from the field of functional medicine, which is certainly totally legitimate.
It does take an entire weekend of school to get certified though.
Wow, an entire weekend!
ADHD; "oh You think that's funny?"
No, I definitely don't think that's funny being allowed to 'treat' people after 'passing' a weekend seminar.
Depends on the country. In some, it's a 3 year (standard) university degree.
I know people that swear by it which I can kind of understand if you have pain and they "pop" something and you feel better. But is it really helping if you have to keep going back?
I wonder if it's a placebo effect. Like I go for a back massage every month or so and feel good for a few weeks but I'm fully aware it's just muscle pain relief and not some permanent fix.
Muscle pain relief is pain relief. I don't go to a chiropractor and I'm confident most of them are selling snake oil but I kinda view them as a next level masseuse.
If I were more comfortable with strangers touching me a massage might be nice. A chiropractor sounds like a next level up. I feel relief when I get a good back crack.
Massage therapy requires significantly more training than chiropractic does, at least in my area.
hey even if it is just the placebo if it still works and its not harmful who cares
That's the problem, chiropractors routinely injure and kill people.
I wasn’t mentioning chiropractors in specific, although I can see how it’d come across as such. I have no idea how safe or unsafe it is
Then you should educate yourself and never visit one if you value your well being. It's an incredibly unsafe practice. Ask any Orthopedic Surgeon how many near permanent injuries they've had to fix from a botched chiropractic adjustment.
I don't believe in it, and I'll never go, but my girlfriend does.
Yes, she has to keep going back, but when they "pop" the correct thing, she's pain free for weeks. When she holds off going, she's in pain and can't sleep until she goes.
I personally don't trust them, and it's a lot of money for temporary relief, but I guess it kinda works? As long as you're fine with the trade-off being fucking paralyzed when they crank your neck at the speed of sound.
Honestly, your girlfriend would be far, far better off going to a competent physical therapist. It sounds like there's a muscular weakness that's allowing a joint to not stay in place.
In almost all cases, people will get better long-term results by doing physical therapy rather than going to a chiropractor.
There are good chiropractors who are just trying to treat pain. 95% of them are woowoo worshipping morally bankrupt bastards. Even those guys can be helpful if what you're looking for is short term care for an injury that's in the process of healing.
They are not good for treating chronic pain. They may be able to help you manage your pain in the short term while you seek real treatment. But over time, your risk of injury from a chiropractor only goes up. You should limit your exposure to chiropractic 'therapy' to as few sessions as possible, and the second they suggest they can treat anything other than a temporary injury, find someone else. It won't be hard they're fucking everywhere.
Physiotherapy is generally recommended for acute (and I believe chronic) injuries by actual medical doctors, so you should generally go to that over chiros.
Oh yeah. I have chronic pain, I'll be doing physiotherapy until the day I die.
The thing is, this study is talking about "chiropractic manipulation" which is a very specific thing. (With that clicker thingy I think?) The thing is, chiropractors tend do do lots of different therapies, like stretching and massage. So you could go to a chiropractor who performs some kind of massage which is effective at temporary pain relief.
Sounds like the chiropractor has no reason to fix her for good. It's for-profit healthcare, and she keeps coming back. If he fixes her properly he's going to lose income.
I will add, as someone with a connective tissue disorder, that a quick "pop" can help a subluxated/dislocated joint, but that's something that can and should be done by an actual physician. And if someone has joints that are especially unstable (for example, bc of a connective tissue disorder), subluxations/dislocations can happen pretty regularly.
This is NOT a defense of chiropractors. And chiropractors are even more dangerous for people like me because it's easier for them to seriously damage our joints. Go to a PCP, a rheumatologist, a physical therapist, it doesn't matter, just go to a real doctor.
I used to see a chiro, stopped while I was pregnant after he 'treated' PGP. (I'm hypermobile, and pregnancy made everything ready to dislocate.) Daily pain went from 5/6 (manageable, barely) to a 9 and severe mobility limitations.
I was slowly moving, but able to move before that appointment. Could barely walk, and climbing stairs was not happening for months after.
A physio realigned everything, and I walked out of the first appointment and could take stairs again. Ended up at a specialist dealing with the aftermath of that chiros treatment.
Physiotherapy is my first stop now, and I will never set foot in a chiropractor's office ever again.
First hit isn’t even free
I messed up my hip once.. couldn't get it right .. super painful. Chiropractor did it up and was ok from then on. Who knows!
Ex had an issue. 6 treatments and she was done for good, never went back. So yes, sometimes they know what they're doing sometimes it works.
Painting the whole profession as witch doctors? Meh, they're not touching my neck, but I'll listen to what they say. Educated and licensed doctors and nurses can be total fruitcakes as well.
"fruitcakes" is a slur for homosexuals. . .
They get paid a lot less per hour, have less support staff, and less equipment. Hence any given unit of time they spend with you costs less. Additionally you have more options of which to choose.
Been to a doc recently? Think of how fast they try to get you out of the room. Feels like you are begging them to please listen to you. Well a chiropractor can spend the time talking to a patient. Of course you feel better, someone heard you complain for over 30 seconds and really listened to you. And if you weren't listened to you, you just go find another one.
Feeling listened to doesn't mean the same thing as treatment.
Of course not but it makes you feel a bit better.
It doesn't, but it might be perceived as treatment.
Suppose you ask your GP to make it rain because your garden is dry and they tell you to go away. Then you go to a chiropractor that talks to you about your garden and then performs a complex ritual that takes a half hour or so. 2 days later it rains.
I think people are misunderstanding your comment.
I don't think you're suggesting this proverbial chiropractor made it rain, only that the patient felt listened to, which may make them initially view the treatment favorably. When their symptoms later get better, as they always would have, they attribute it to the chiropractic treatment, not just healing over time
Clearly you've never been to a physiotherapist. It's usually always a 30-60min appointment and they spend the entire time with you, bonus is they are actually trying to fix your problem instead of just temporary pain relief so you keep coming back forever. Not to mentioned they are board certified and didn't get their certificate from a cracker jack box.
I have not been to a chiropractor either. I am repeating what other people told me about them.
One of my best friend’s fathers was an MD before retiring.
The cadaver he used in med school: broken neck during an “alignment” at a chiropractor’s office.
Anecdotal evidence for sure, but definitely a story that I think of whenever someone talks about going to a chiropractor.
How many fathers did they have?
Touché. Ya got me!
That image feels designed to look like porn at a passing glance.
Everything looks like a nail when you're a hammer.
Jackhammer grip reporting, everything looks like porn if you squint hard enough!
Can confirm. Am hammer.
They knew what they were doing.
Don't "patients" like die from this all the time/randomly?
They never complained afterwards.
Dead men leave no bad yelp reviews
-proverbs for the 21st century
All the time? No, but it's happened before. Particularly with high neck manipulations that sever the spinal cord above the point where the nerves that control autonomic functions branch off from the neck (I think that's C2?) Randomly? Also no. It's a very predictable result of spinal manipulation. Just like lung cancer doesn't happen 'randomly'; if you smoke enough and long enough, it's pretty likely, but if you don't smoke at all it's very, very rare.
It's definitely happened. I think the technical term is "vertebral artery dissection." I don't think it's like a daily occurrence or anything, but there is a very real risk of it happening whenever you get a chiropractic adjustment on your neck. Basically you have some delicate arteries running through your neck bones and the sharp sudden movement of certain chiropractic adjustments have the potential to rupture them. It can cause a stroke and some various other bad things that can happen when blood flow through the spine is interrupted.
Quick reminder that Physios and Chiros outside America face different rules for accreditation, and may not warrant similar judgement.
If chiropractic was legit people wouldn’t have to keep going back for more “treatment”.
If you’ve got a bad back, watching your posture and doing some core strength training is more effective.
Seriously. I had a friend extolling how good his experience with his chiropractor was, in response to my tale about physical therapy after a skiing accident. I ended the argument pretty quickly by asking "how often do you have to go back"
DO's manipulation training is largely horseshit too, but at least they won't cure cancer by cracking your neck.
Most DOs do not. They're DO's because the medical school they got accepted in was an osteopathic school. Not because they actually believe in it.
One point of going to a MD is to treat an existing condition. Obviously not every condition can be cured but that’s the aim. Chiropractic doesn’t even try and treat a condition, it’s all about short term relief.
For what it's worth, as a massage therapist I've interviewed with some chiropractors and know plenty of other therapists who have worked for them. The number of chiropractors NOT doing some kind of shady billing or breaking some other scope of practice/ethical boundaries is shockingly small. I'm sure they exist, but in swapping stories with other therapists over almost 2 decades, I might know 1.
For example, one Chiro I interviewed with had his "program" set as patients being categorized into "back" or "neck" patients. Depending on which you were categorized into determined how many sessions (manipulation plus other therapies) per week for 8 weeks the patient would receive. After 8 weeks he would reassess. Seriously waiting 8 weeks to see if it's helping. He knew what insurances would cover, so he cookie cuttered his whole practice. From what it looked like I don't think people "graduated" by getting better, moreso just once they ran out of money.
I think this depends on the kind of chiropractic work. If they are just there to pop bubbles for that crack, then nothing is happening. I got into a car accident and my insurance sent me to a chiropractor that never cracked my back. Instead he gave me physical therapy, got me MRI images to check for an cracks on my spine or hernias in my discs, and gave me some equipment to help relax my back muscles and provide support to my bacl. I feel like this kind of work actually does provide benefit. I don't go anymore since all of that stuff is cleared up now, but I would trust that guy with my back again if I needed it.
it's an interesting decision to exclude
and
from the title here
A massage never killed anyone, unlike chiropracty. Just get a massage.
and your masseuse doesn't make absurd claims about healing other maladies.
My RMT also doesn't refer to herself as a "doctor"
Hey, mine loves to talk up her blue ball cure.
Right? I feel like that is 90% of the reason to get it.
I don't think you understand the level to which people take chiropracty. People use it in a "cures what ails you" mentality. Colds, flu, hand arthritis, all sorts of diseases. There is a ton of danger in allowing "back cracking for healing" when it doesn't do anything that couldn't be done with massage.
There are people who bring their newborns for "alignments" back pain is definitely a reason to get it, but not the reason.
Physical therapy will always be the better route.
Unless you have so much pain that you're unable to do even the most basic PT exercises, like me. PT did absolutely nothing, and it was $200 out of pocket for each stupid appt.
I doubt chiro is going to help much more, then.
See also: How Chiropractic Started as a Ghost Religion
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
How Chiropractic Started as a Ghost Religion
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source; check me out at GitHub.
Well that's just great. Where am I supposed to go to get my vertebral artery dissection now?
I was under the impression that the assertion that chiropractic neck manipulation causes vertebral artery dissection is often suggested, but that evidence of such a causation is inconclusive. I certainly believe it, but I can't assume. Chiropractors may twist the inconclusiveness into suggesting that such neck manipulation is safe, but that's a fallacy.
I lean towards believing it, based on having met a person who suffered a vertebral artery dissection, and cerebellar infarcts, following chiropractic treatment.
With a little practice, you can do it yourself!
Almost like alternative medicine is an alternative to medicine. Sue these scammers out of existence.
There's that old chestnut: "you know what they call alternative medicine that works? Medicine."
You know what they call alternative medicine that actually works... medicine
Ya it doesn’t. It’s pseudo science that gives you temporary relieve. It doesn’t cure you of back pains permanently
Worked for my ex-wife. 6 treatments and he sent her home, fixed for good. The bad stories may outweigh the good, but let's not pretend all practitioners are dumbasses.
For people who point to certifications and education, I'll remind them that plenty of doctors and nurses smoke and are anti-vax. It ain't a perfect world.
They are not practitioners. They hold no medical degree and you should not trust them with any medical care. Treat them for what they are, glorified back crackers who peddle pseudoscience and may kill you by accident.
The best way to treat this is to ensure you have good posture and exercise regularly
That's just dumb... Smoking is healthy
This is one of those things, like acupuncture, that I will not fault anyone else for engaging in. There's no hard evidence that they are effective, but if it helps you with your problem (even if it's all in your head), then it was worth it, was it not?
I know people who have had their lives improved and their mobility restored thanks to chiropractors. I also know one or two who swear they got scammed for years because the pain always comes back really quickly.
I may not personally recommend a chiro to someone as a solution to their back or neck pain, but I won't discourage them from going if they are considering it.
My insurance has chiropractors as a separate category with its own maximum $. Meanwhile physio & every other athletic therapy excluding RMT gets lumped into a single category. It's fucking bullshit and I can only assume someone was payed off to make it happen. $500 a year of insurance $ I can't use without endangering myself.
You know it's a legit therapy if a dead doctor told you in a seance about it.
Hell yes! The creator decided he wanted to be a doctor, but he didn’t want to go to doctor school. So he made up his own medicine—with blackjack, and hookers!
I like the doctors that didn't die.
Saw a chiropractor because I was starting to wake up with back pain every morning. Bought into something like a 3 month, twice per week program because the loss of sleep was really bad and he said he was pretty sure it would help.
After 3 months, I was still having a lot of difficulty. After an adjustment I'd be fine the next night but it would come right back.
So I decided to just go buy a high end new mattress. Boom. Every night after was a no-pain night. Never went back to the chiro.
Even if they made me feel better it is so temporary that I'd have to come again, and again. I'd rather go to a massage therapist who could also get the rest of my body too without the risk of vertebral artery dissection.
The best thing I've found for my back is slow, varied motions and stretches. I do tai chi and qigong and they really loosen me up.
I went to a chiro for a while and it did help but I think it was mainly because they'd have me do a fairly comprehensive set of stretches at the beginning of each visit. I stopped going to the chiro but I keep doing the stretches.
The amount of people in this thread not reading more than the headline is mind numbing.
So in other news the sky is blue.
More like chiroquacktors! Haha, you get it? Because....
Pseudo-scientific jibber-jabber doesn't actually work? Color me shocked
Generally agree with this, but one time when I was little landed on my back on the edge of a trampoline and really hurt my back. After some back and forth my parents took me to a chiropractor who fixed my pain, saying I probably moved a disk onto a nerve or something like that.
So I think pain caused by physical movement of the spine like my injury is totally legit as a reason to go to one
I read about one of these guys breaking sick arm bone lol. On the other hand, where I live, these guys have to literally go through similiar shit like physiologists so theyre as safe as any other quack with paper is. I have mixed feelings.
See, you are not a real doctor, Allen!
I know this but I still don't understand it. I started visiting a chiropractor for my first time last year and I'm old. I couldn't sit for a week. I couldn't get my socks on. I couldn't lay in any position in bed except on my back. I went, and I was immediately 80-90% better. Had to do followups for about 6 weeks and I haven't been back 😂.
I don't understand why they aren't.
Of course core strengthening is always better but that's preventative.
it's a temporary fix. A patch up. If you don't focus on proper posture and stretching excersizes, it's very likely you could end up in that same situation again
This is what I am saying. Maybe I wasn't clear.
OP is just spouting misinformation that was/is spammed on Reddit for years with nothing concrete to back them up.
Ya! OP is just hiding behind this Wikipedia article on chiropractors loaded with all those so-called “sources” from scientific journals. I bet she doesn’t even have a nice story about a time she went to a chiropractor and felt better.
If you read long enough, you’ll realize that all these studies essentially suggest whatever idea they are trying to promote. Often it is with bias.
The takeaway is that you should not just blanket ban a whole profession just because someone says they aren’t a doctor. That’s nonsense. There are way more factors than that.
Glad you came up with great counter evidence though!
Chiropractic has its benefits. The problem is that you can't make a living if all you are doing is the few things that chiropractic works for. That's why they have to make all kinds of spectacular claims about the benefits and rope you into 6 months of twice a week visits.
The Dr I went to as a kid was an MD and had a chiropractic license. He was able to reset my rib when it got knocked out from being shoved between the seats on the school bus.
Incomplete quotes to further an agenda? I thought we left that behind with reddit? @OP, take this to shitposts if you're shit at posting :(
I recently learned that chiropractors in Switzerland are very different. They are all medical doctors and need to fulfill strict requirements so they can work as chiropractor. It is also a common thing here to go to chiropractors and I have never heard of any accidents.
Imagine hating chiropractors so much you have to downvote a true fact without spending a second looking it up yourself.
those are 'licensed physical therapists'.. the few good things that might be attributed to chiropractors are ready done by actual medical professionals... even here in the u.s.
the difference is, we allow quacks to pretend to be 'doctors' here. a certain subset of the population are drawn to the homeopathic, pseudo-science nature of it.
False, I go and feel better afterwards, check mate
It seems to me that atlas orthogonal adjustment is more of a real thing offered than just getting your neck twisted, then again as someone who probably needs that (I had whiplash many years ago) I have no idea if the places near me have the equipment for it (or x-ray stuff needed) so that along with paperwork/scheduling has stopped me.
Everyone will have different experiences. Going to a chiropractor helped me with my posture in the long term. After my first visit it was no longer uncomfortable to stand up straight. I used to have this lump in the back of my neck and whatever they did made that go away. I did initially go for back pain and I can't say if the visits helped with back pain in the long term but the adjustment did help me with my posture.
Do you still go? If not, how many times did you go?
I went nine times. I don't think I needed to keep going but I kept agreeing to the next appointment lol. My HSA covered it at least. Except for the first few appointments I'd go once a month. I don't plan on going again for now.
An osteopath is usually the best choice.
How about a doctor instead?
The full title of an osteopath is "Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine." From a quick Google search, "An osteopath is a licensed physician who practices medicine using both conventional treatments and osteopathic manipulative medicine"
Having been to one, I found the manipulation to be unhelpful. She quickly zoomed into the trouble spot, but the treatment did nothing for me. But at least it didn't actively harm me. I later received proper medical treatment from a neurosurgeon and physical therapy, because that's what I needed instead of a manipulation.
So a bullshit artist who should know better and hides behind a real license for a faint whiff of legitimacy? No thanks, evidence-based medicine only please.
It's basically a car mechanic that also do crystal healing and claim changing the car battery and placing a piece of quarts on the dashboard had equal parts in fixing the car.
This analogy rocks, might make use of it next time the topic comes up offline.
I think your first point, if true, says something important about their recognition of the validity of the practice. The second claim is challenging to prove or disprove. Anecdotally, I can tell you that my current doctor isn't into any of that stuff but don't have the academic history of every physician who has ever asked me to turn my head and cough in front of me.
I'm glad you were able to get the care you needed.
This thread is showing me that a lot of people really don't like knowing that osteopaths (but not chiropractors) are licensed medical doctors.
Correct, they are Doctors of Chiropractic.
Unfortunately a lot of misinformation exists which has hurt the field.
Oddly, people have no problem shitting all over this profession but yet religiously trust Western medicine and pharmaceuticals... And people still die.
Maybe lead with facts instead of spreading FUD?
Uh, yeah, having had several accidents resulting in vertebral subluxation or a rotated SI joint that was only corrected and relieved by chiropractors, whoever came up with that conclusion can fuck all the way off.
Thank you for sharing your story! While it's a great example of anecdotal evidence, the "whoever" that came up with these conclusions are called "scientists" who perform research based on scientific evidence. It's great that you feel better for having seen a chiropractor, but many do not.
That’s also anecdotal stories, and it’s not my imagination that after attempting numerous other methods, that chiropractors were the only ones who did anything except say to walk it off or offer painkillers. You can fuck off along with those scientists.
By the same logic, all the “real” medical practitioners whose efforts and advice had zero positive effect on those situations are also quacks, or whatever. Fortunately for them, I have more realistic experience and understanding than that.
The only funny part about this to me is that the only advice any “real” medical practitioner gave me that helped any of these situations was to refer me to a chiropractor, after prescribing painkillers to help tolerate it until I could see one.
you really trust yourself over the majority of scientsits and medical people the world over? really?
please tell me you also never to a hospital or ever dial 911 for a medical emergency. they may use science on you
You must be partially illiterate since I’ve already said I went to doctors, and that I was recommended to see a chiropractor by at least one them, and that I experienced relief and long term correction for multiple accidents. Not just relief, but instant relief, from realigning the vertebrae from a position that created nerve entrapments. The mechanics of chiropractic and how they work is not difficult to understand. If any of these scientists were messed up badly enough to need one, they would also draw different conclusions.
edit: and yes, I do trust my own observations about the presence of pain and its elimination from my own body. I don’t need scientists or doctors to tell me that it didn’t actually happen. I was there.
wow. i mean, you always read about people who just dont understand science.. but then you see one in the wild
good luck, buddy.
you are the blood from which regulations are written
"Science is just stories told by people who read books to make people who don't read books feel dumb"
As far as I’m concerned, you’re the ignorant one here. If you ever need chiropractic and decide not to get it because a group of people told you it’s worthless, I’m fine with it. I don’t have to live with any pain you may suffer from in the future or your decisions how to manage it.
And I’m not sure what you’re wishing me luck on, because due to my decision making, I’m pain free with full mobility, with exception for ringing in the ears, for which there is no cure at the moment, but I do use scientifically based hearing aids that play scientifically based disruption tones that work about 60% of the time, prescribed by my doctors and paid by my medical insurance. And I don’t avoid hospitals or other nonsense you’re projecting. Everything you’ve said is disposable.
k
Vertebral subluxation isn't a thing. Chiropractors made it up. You might have had a dislocation, but subluxation is oogy boogy words.
Chiropractors DO have some evidence that they can provide short term, immediate pain relief for back pain. However, physical therapy and exercise after an adjustment is necessary or you have to see a Chiro forever.
Also a PT or DO can do the same kinds of manipulations with an actual medical degree.
Orthopedic surgeon here
Vertebral subluxation is a real thing n depending on the level, can lead to paralysis, complete or partial or death. It is not oogy boogy.
After road accident, chiropractic manipulation might be the biggest reason for it.
Thanks, your interpretation is not required.
And you’re incorrect
https://health.clevelandclinic.org/whats-the-difference-between-shoulder-dislocation-and-subluxation
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK559144/
edit: and if PTs and DOs are doing the same adjustments, then the adjustments are a legitimate therapy when done correctly, regardless of who is doing them, unless you’re saying PTs and DOs are also illegitimate. Your argument is nonsense.
"If Billy Bob who watched a few YouTube videos can fix your car, why go to a mechanic?"
And you’re still completely wrong about subluxation being a made up word. That post from Cleveland Clinic explains the difference to you, and the NIH link goes into thorough descriptions of it.
Hmmm, which should I rely on, Cleveland Clinic and NIH, or some idiot who couldn’t be bothered to look up the big words before saying they aren’t real? Gee, let me think.
But then again, you’re probably not competent enough to read the NIH discussion and understand it.
That is ridiculous characterization of people who go through formal education to learn their craft. You are a fucking idiot.
Apparently 4-7 years of education and clinical practice at an average of $120,000 or more is equivalent to watching a few youtube videos. Only a dumbass would think something like that.
Not to mention that chiropractors are licensed by state medical boards. Get the fuck outta here with that nonsense.
I also love how the goalposts have been moved from “chiropractic techniques are ineffective and have no value” to “well actually those same techniques are effective and legitimate when done by certain people.” That is hilarious!
What’s sad is that after 25+ years of having these arguments, you knuckleheads haven’t come up with anything original.
This is a very north american opinion, which also happens to be very condescending in tone, while op explicitly dismiss commenters who disagree with them. The practices designated by the various terms, such as chiropractors, osteopath, physical therapists, etc. vary depending on the countries and contexts, especially in some european countries where chiropractors must answer to the same standards and regulations as the other medical professions. This should be taken into account.
Actually, a DC goes to school for 4 years to learn what they do. A PT used to go for 4 years undergrad, then 2 years for the MS. Now you really can't practice without a PhD. When a DC says they can do everything a PT can do plus Rx certain things, it really pisses PTs off. They work within the scope of a MD's direction. DC don't. Both use Phillip Greenman's Principles of Manual Medicine in their training (an Osteopathic text).
in the us, again, it doesn't happen like that in a lot of countries.
Well regulated snake oil is still snake oil. Just cause a regulatory board says its relatively safe doesnt mean its actually effective. Chiropractory is no more effective than a good massage, and you know what if thats all they advertised it as then fine. But it aint theres a whole bunch of woo mixed into it.
You can just get a good massage. They feel good and you are probably more likely dying driving back and forth from the place.
I literally said that in my comment. No better than a good massage, was meant to imply that its about as good if not worse than a good massage.
They run the risk of injuring their customers, with the way that they “manipulate” the neck and spine.
There are people who can generally help those with back issues or whatnot, they’re called doctors.
That's just not true, regulations imply healthcare reimbursement, which implies strict control on the treatment and the practicians, because insurance companies hate paying.
Osteopathy was originally pseudoscientific quackery, but has long abandoned the woo crap that was not supported by medical evidence. Osteopathic medicine today is grounded firmly and exclusively in actual science.
Physical therapy is, and always has been, medical science based therapy.
Chiropractic therapy is founded upon disproven theories and requires no actual medical training. The industry regulates its own certifications, and chiropractors are taught a perverted concept of physiology.
...from a north american perspective.
Those definitions are just not true in a lot of countries outside of the us.
Considering osteopathy was invented in the United States by an American, who was basically just making shit up, and all of the underlying theories and mechanisms of action have been thoroughly debunked, I'd say that a lie is a lie anywhere in the world, regardless of legal status.
Psychoanalysis was invented almost at the same time in Vienna and a lot of freudian concepts have since been critiqued due to his biases. Does it mean Austria forever owns psychoanalysis and anything that could be discovered since? There is a difference between a field of research, a scientific discipline and a paradigm. Debunking a theory that was invented more than a century ago doesn't disqualify every research done after that. Also, paradigm change often comes from opposing theories from the same field they oppose. If we did like that, there wouldn't be a lot of research field left standing.
You accept yourself that osteopathy was able to go beyond its suspicious origin, but refuse to imagine that chiropractice could do the same. Which is why I reiterate: chiropractice requiring no medical training is a north american thing.
It means anyone anywhere practicing Freudian therapy is peddling debunked medicine.
Chiros anywhere still crack your joints, even though it's an imaginary benefit and a very real risk. Patients of chiros would be better served in physical therapy or massage therapy. There's nowhere on earth that this isn't true.
You're just presenting nuanced conclusions as overwhelming truths to put weight on your opinion, while taking a few shortcuts. You're entitled to your opinion of course, but that doesn't mean you get to dismiss any contradicting ones by deciding unilaterally what the words mean.
Chiropractice in the US might be just "cracking joints", but it's not true everywhere. If you can't accept that, then I don't know what to tell you.
Are you saying that Chiropractors don't crack joints in other countries?
According to “studies”, everything causes cancer and everything doesn’t cause cancer. Don’t pay too much attention to a wiki that could have easily been “doctored”.
I see you belong to the "Why bother checking sources when you can just disregard everything and believe whatever you want!" school of thought.
Very avantgarde of you!
You know what they say about assuming, so quit doing it.
YSK that Medical Doctors are also not Chiropractors. This is why the letters after their names are different. M.D. means Medical Doctor, and D.C. means Doctor of Chiropractic. The major differences in their educations being Surgery, and Drugs for the MDs, and Nutrition, Physical Therapy, Manual Therapy are studied more by DCs. Depending on licensure laws both can order imaging, laboratory testing, and prescribe massage or physical therapy. Also the MD will only have 3-7 minutes to spend with you, and the DC will have much more time to do intake, history, therapy, and to explain what is going on with you and what can be done to improve your situation. Here's a fun fact for ya, some of the injuries attributed to joint manipulation, and this is well documented, were from barbers, kung fu teachers, and yes, MDs and PTs who went to a weekend course in manipulation, instead of the numerous semesters of learning that a DC will have as part of their normal coursework.
@NataliePortland, what's your issue? Why do you care so much about this particular topic?
Yeah NataliePortland, why do you care that people are getting ripped off and, in some cases, injured or killed for no benefit? They're not even you, it makes no sense.
I could start spending my time bashing various professions, I suppose, but I've got better things to do. However, since you are obviously interesting in people being ripped off, injured or killed here's this, the first article that came up on search from PubMed:
Our prescription drugs kill us in large numbers
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25355584/
Abstract
Our prescription drugs are the third leading cause of death after heart disease and cancer in the United States and Europe. Around half of those who die have taken their drugs correctly; the other half die because of errors, such as too high a dose or use of a drug despite contraindications. Our drug agencies are not particularly helpful, as they rely on fake fixes, which are a long list of warnings, precautions, and contraindications for each drug, although they know that no doctor can possibly master all of these. Major reasons for the many drug deaths are impotent drug regulation, widespread crime that includes corruption of the scientific evidence about drugs and bribery of doctors, and lies in drug marketing, which is as harmful as tobacco marketing and, therefore, should be banned. We should take far fewer drugs, and patients should carefully study the package inserts of the drugs their doctors prescribe for them and independent information sources about drugs such as Cochrane reviews, which will make it easier for them to say "no thanks".
It is a free article, so you can read the whole thing, if you wish to be better informed.
The second one is from US News and World Report:
Death by Prescription
https://health.usnews.com/health-news/patient-advice/articles/2016-09-27/the-danger-in-taking-prescribed-medications
Enjoy.
No professions are being bashed here, just liars and thieves. One can be a professional thief, of course, but it's not a respectable line of work and I won't waste too much time hand-wringing over what they and their supporters feel about what I say.
Here's one simple test: for a risk to be acceptable, there must be a benefit which can be achieved through taking that risk. Low risk, high benefit is good and high risk, low benefit is bad. I'm not going to defend the whole prescription drug industry because obviously it has its share of shitheads. Still, the broad range of products tends to fall on the favorable side of the risk/benefit balance when used as intended which is something I can't say for no-benefit practices like chiropractic, osteopathic or any of the other imitation medicine offerings out there.
I've been cracking nearly every joint in my body for my whole life. So, I understand that it can feel amazing when you get 10 good pops down your spine.
On two occasions (over 40 years) my neck was so stiff, it caused incredible pain to move it at all.
Both of those times, someone I know recommended a chiropractor. Each time, I went in for an initial appointment and a follow up, and every single time, I left feeling exactly as miserable as when I walked in the door.
The first guy karate chopped my neck, which made it hurt more for the rest of the day. And the second guy just put some electrodes on my back and left the room while the machine zapped me for ten minutes. Neither of them ever claimed to know what was wrong or how to fix it. They just said, "We can try this and see how you feel. 🤷🏻♂️"
I've seen no evidence that they can do anything more than what I was able to figure out with a chair in 4th grade.
They know they're giving you a placebo. Sometimes it "works", other times it doesn't.