I've wrote this before and I'll write it again. Conversion kits need to become mainstream. It's like my old Jeep can have pretty much any engine. Someone converted theirs with using parts from a junk yard Tesla.
as battery tech improves and electric motors become more powerful and ubiquitous it'll happen. there's a small market of people converting classic cars to ev. one day I'd like to convert my old honda element. I don't need 300 miles range, give me 80 and it'll be fine for grabbing lumber or taking junk to the dump.
dig around and there's a lot more. there's a lot of rolling stock that can be swapped eventually, it would be stupid to condemn all that metal to scrap.
And it'll be extra nice because those kits could also deshitify the car in the process. Oh, you stuck a dependency on a functional phone home system in the fuel injection loop? Who cares after I've removed the fuel injectors?
Pretty cool if it's legit. The west side Germany 300 got me a giggle. Bookmarked it. Okay, I just finished. I can't believe this tech is out. I have read about how well it does with frying oil.
Making batteries exchangeable adds a lot of costs and overhead. The battery changing infrastructure is even a greater nightmare. Nio tried it and failed. With batteries getting better and better, this concept also is getting less and less feasible. It is really easier and cheaper to expand infrastructure of long range EV renting.
That said, in Europe taking the train and renting an EV at the destination (range is not much of an issue then either) is probably the more relaxed option anyway, if a car is needed at all.
Having sat on a rail replacement bus inching its way towards Stansted down the M11 while the takeoff time loomed closer and closer, I think I'll pass on that for important journeys.
Quite happy to take it to work, the worst that happens there is a shorter working day.
Home charging is easily better for city car. Only two use cases for changeable batteries are commercial two wheelers and trailer trucks. And for trucks you'll need to change out the driver too. There are ones being trialed which use a forklift to change it out.
The US is basically walling up its market against affordable compact cars. That can't be the whole reason however. After all, Renault could sell the R5 or Twingo in the US if it wanted I assume. Are the regulations there so incredibly hostile towards compact cars, or do European companies resent producing compact cars as well and just do it in Europe because they absolutely have to, in order to survive?
The US buyer is obsessed with size, power and automatic transmission. Almost half of Americans believe “Made in USA” equates to a superior product. There are tariffs and a vast distribution network is required. Cars would have to be significantly adapted to follow US regulations.
oh great a flying car, can't wait for an "update" at the zenith to shut everything down, then smash itself in the ground while I'm in it. It will explode into flames, and I'll try to climb out but oh no! The door won't open.
Fantastic
I'll wait until analog buttons return and perhaps even update control. What year will it be before the car remembers my custom settings? 2050? Can we do this by 2050?
p.s. somebody please make a simple car, electric, electric hybrid, and gasoline, that has easy repair access and interchangeable batteries. Remove the fucking TV and return to buttons so you don't have to scan a screen while driving. A basic generic car that you can upgrade if you'd like. Something you can drive to death, like the classic Honda Civic of yore.
There's some reason nobody is making is car, because people want it... is it governmental regulation? I don't know
They also fill it all sorts of unnecessary shit while forgoing basic safety features such as, idk, being able to open the door in the event of power failure.
Or being able to adjust the A/C or ventilation blind without being forced to take the eyes off the road and redirect them towards a complicated screen layout.
Cheapest in USA is still expensive compared to what you get outside the USA, with similar safety standards, but different tradeoffs on luxury, features and range
Europe's loss really though, euro cars sell well here but since you refuse to sell us the EV versions, China is already taking over and Euro cars are already on the back foot, I don't think they'll ever gain the marketshare they had either.
I am not Renault. I have no idea why they are not selling it in the US or Australia. It is very well possible that they already have given up Australia against the Chinese. The "Made in Europe" argument certainly has less weight there than in Europe. Like I said, I am not sitting in the strategy meetings of Renault but if I had to guess they are choosing their retreat battles already.
Renault had seemingly given up on hatchbacks for the Aussie market, it feels like only a few years ago the Megane and Clio were all over our roads.
I can’t particularly blame them, though. We have something like ~5% of the population of Europe in about the same landmass, our regulations (ADRs) quite onerous, we drive on the other side of the road compared to continental Europe, and the logistical costs of sending a finished vehicle from Europe to Oceania makes it quite difficult to compete economically against Chinese, Korean and Japanese brands.
I say this as someone heartbroken, who absolutely adores the designs of European marques like Peugeot, Renault, Alfa Romeo, Abarth and Citroen - they are all undeniably cool.
I'm your defense you drive on the same side as the UK which does have an R5, you'd think selling more of them would reduce the UK specific tooling cost per car. The driving upside down bit is probably trickier, I'll concede that.
I visited a friend in australia who can finally afford a brand new car on a funeral assistant's wage because of how cheap chinese EVs are. Even has in-seat massagers.
Don't ever by a brand new car that is fresh of the production line. That is the biggest decrease of value you could do with your money.
If you absolutely have to own a shiny new thing then buy yourself a car that is 6-12 months old. You will get the same "new car feeling" but you will save a lot of money.
If you can find a car that is 6-12 months old, sure. Assuming it wasn’t a rental in a previous life. Or a lemon returned by its previous owner due to massive issues.
Most people who buy new cars keep them for a relatively long time. And during that time they require minimal maintenance.
The “biggest decrease of value” assumes that, to you, the value of the car is determined by what you could sell it for. But that’s not the case. To you, the value of the car is what you spent on it. You then amortize that value of the car over the years you operate it. The only person who can tell you whether you got out of a car what you paid for it is you.
The “biggest decrease of value” assumes that, to you, the value of the car is determined by what you could sell it for. But that’s not the case. To you, the value of the car is what you spent on it. You then amortize that value of the car over the years you operate it.
This. I just was able to buy my first ever "new" new car after years of every "new" car being at minimum 10 years old. I've got an '06 Forester with nearly 200k miles on it, and I'm hoping this new one will last as long (but I kind of doubt it).
Regardless, I'm not leasing, not planning on selling in 5 years. To me, the peace of mind of a new car warranty is worth it and it gets way better mileage than the old Forester.
Yeah, the mark down on used cars in the US now just isn't worth it. I looked at cars recently and a 2 year old car with 45k+ miles was like 4k below sticker for a new one across the street. And you didn't get to pick your color or add accessories you took what they had.
These were hybrids. I think EVs used to have higher markdown because of battery life concerns, but batteries have proven to have better lifespans than expected. So I don't know how true that is now.
You used to save 30% plus. You still can on lease returns sometimes and the warranty should continue until the mileage or time runs out.
There are still some deals out there, but yeah a 1 year old car is going to be either too expensive or risky for mechanical or some other weird reason.
Whatever you think will be covered by warranty, won't be, or you will need to fight them to the end to get it, then the mechanics will hate you because they hate warranty work, they will do a shit job because they're paid way less than normal work.
And you have no idea what glaring issues that car has because it's not existed long enough for people to know and post online.
Don't get a new fucking car please for the love of god, save yourself the headache.
Some chinese EV actually come in fun size. Like Geely EX2 and Wuling Binguo, it's about the size of Ford Fiesta but round, and BYD Seal is a midsized sedan similarly to the Accord. Unfortunately, most EV tend to be SUV for some reason, so the fault is not solely on Chinese EV.
The subcompact SUVs aka crossovers are essentially lifted hatchbacks. I prefer those because they have the same compact size but with better ground clearance.
I walked past a Tesla showroom recently and they had one car on the floor that they still sell, one that they haven't sold in decades, a frame to a car that's out of production, and a robot they still don't produce. They used to have more cars out then they stopped producing them. The stock is still high somehow.
The original roadster is still so cool to me. I wish a small relatively light ev sports car was sold in the US. I don't want a barge with 800 HP I'd much rather have something nimble with a quarter of the power.
Yeah I know and that's exactly why it was good, because the elise already had an incredible sports car chassis.
The EV3 seems like a fine commuter but is certainly not a sports car in weight, shape, chassis, or suspension. It's just another compact crossover, seemingly a good one, but not really what I'm talking about. In the US the closest thing is probably the Mini Cooper SE, but it's still heavier and less powerful than the original roadster.
Imagine if Mazda made an mx-5 EV or Toyota made an 86 EV.
Imagine if Mazda made an mx-5 EV or Toyota made an 86 EV.
I'm pro-EV in general (pro-trains notwithstanding), but don't see the point in that. I'd rather they just got the people who designed the MX-5 and GT86 to design EV sports cars on their own terms. An MX-5 EV would just be there to remind you how much more fun the ICE version was to drive.
Well yeah I don't mean literally make the same car but an EV. Of course there are special considerations that need to be made when designing a different type of car. The main reason most EVs aren't very fun is because most of them haven't been designed to be.
I bought a used 2023 Hyundai Ioniq 5 for $25k. 30k miles. I know its still not cheap, but the ask the batteries have a 100k+ warranty.
77kW 220-280 miles at 100% (though I rarely go beyond 90% for battery life). 0-60 in 4.5 seconds, all wheel drive, CCS charger with NACS adapters available. Tesla chargers max at 96kW just fyi, idk why. But a lot of quick chargers work better, there's 2 65xkW, 4x180kW near me. There's a 4x375kW and a 4x400kW on a regular distance trip I take. Those are stupid fast charging.
A standard 120v is 1.4kW max, and it works out to about 10%/11hrs. A 240v is much better (i can't remember maybe its like 10kW) charges fully in about 8 hours.
Kia and Hyundai are awesome EVs. I've heard good things about Subaru's. The Chevy Bolt I've heard less good about. Toyota's EVs are disappointing. Avoid Polestar - they aren't allowed to sell in the US anymore anyway, but the car has a fancy interior and is fun to drive until the AC stops working. And it's got weird software license gates for hardware it has.
Subaru and Toyota's EVs are the same cars with mild restyles, both should be similar mechanically and reliability wise. The Uncharted is definitely the nicest of the bunch in my mind, though.
2027 Chevy Bolt driver here 👋. Urban car-dependent locale unfortunately.
Freaking love the Bolt. Got some good incentives and bought new, which felt sorta foolish at the time. Never ever bought new before. (But there were no used models under like 100,000 miles around us, and they were old ones with slow charging.)
It is a touch smaller than our CR-V, but they vastly improved this model and I enjoy it a lot. The LT was quite affordable, and I don't ask for much luxury. (IMHO my Honda Element was the best car ever.)
There's also third party module to get Android auto to work, I'm considering that.
I can say one thing though, even though having a payment sucks, I feel vindicated every time I drive by $6 gas.
I recently heard that Honda might be bringing the Element back in a few years. I hope it's true. I really wanted an Element when they were still in production, but couldn't afford one back then
They keep teasing it over and over. AGH. It kills me! Like every year a new bunch of articles pop up to generate clicks. I can never tell when it's real! Lol
And I thought I was CRAZY for thinking "Could I EV convert it?" (Could fix stuff with YouTube. Not a mechanic.)
Well, now I see converting cars becoming a big thing. But sadly I screwed up the whole engine by snapping a 10mm gooseneck bolt deep in some crevice deep down in there, and it was leaking oil, and I had to sell it for scrap because we needed to get to work. Tragic. I got almost 200,000 miles out of it. :( :(
...at least now I know how a new very simple way to sabotage a vehicle hardcore in a way no mechanic or machinist would dare bother with it. (Ask me how I know Lol)
Maybe that Element EV will be a thing. I know EVs like to chase high efficiency / low drag but they need to not be afraid to be boxy for the right audience instead of jelly beans! XD
Haha well it didn't have much of a reputation for efficiency, did it? I heard it would come back as a hybrid though, which might be cool if they can pull it off without sacrificing too much interior space.
Hahaha yeah, it was a bit of a brick! 😂 25MPG on a good day wasn't bad though.
But I mean hey, if Rivian can make those gargantuan Amazon vans electric, I'm sure Honda could figure it out for us. 😉 With enough infrastructure, range is pretty negotiable!
Might just have to raise the interior floor a bit to fill it with battery or make the hood space a little less snubby. :p
Would be super cool though. I'd be all over that haha.
I really like my '23 Bolt EUV. I bought it when it was new, and it's been perfectly reliable ever since. Like you, it was the first time I ever bought new. I've got no regrets!
240V can vary depending on the amperage and what the individual charger can handle. Power = Voltage x Current. I ran a 60A line, but for continuous loads you can only do 80%, so I get 240V x 48A which is about 11.5kW. There are always losses, so 10ish is a fair guess for real world time expectations.
As a Bolt EUV owner, I'm very envious of your charge speeds on the road, even though I wouldn't make much use of it.
For 240V most people use a dryer outlet which is 30 amps. 30A x 240V = 7.2kW before resistance and conversion losses, etc. Use a 50 amp circuit and outlet and you can achieve 12kW with the same stipulations.
I've had a polestar for a couple years now, and it's by far my favorite vehicle. It has quirks, but most I can get past. I also have a kia EV and I fucking hate it. It forces you to get handheld through everything and it has some really dumb software choices. Everything I hate about then could be changed with a software update to give options, but I don't foresee that happening ever.
It was really fun, don't get me wrong. I miss the small amount of extra power it had. The shifter was cool.
But the tire sensors kept going off, and the AC just dying and requiring me to do a fancy start sequence to get it going again was just impractical. Also it didn't have smart cruise control, barely any storage space, max charge was like 210 miles, and the backup camera was almost useless.
That was a 2023 polestar 2, so i cant speak for other models or newer ones.
That's fair, my tire settings need reset a few times per year. I don't have the ac problem, but the sound for the speakers doesn't work maybe once a month for some reason. Like I said, definitely quirks, but much better than my experience with the kia.
The things I don't like on the kia are deliberate design decisions (or perhaps wild after thoughts in design) that I have to deal with every single time I drive it. I don't know if I've ever had the level of disdain for a vehicle ever. In fairness, there is a lot to like, but I feel like it's definitely vehicle for people who either don't like driving, are passive drivers and indifferent to the vehicle or both.
Here’s the thing everyone seems to be forgetting. Once a motorized vehicle leaves the ground under powered flight it is no longer under DOT’s domain it is now under FAA’s domain. FAA licenses are way harder to get and way easier to lose. They also require annual tests to keep. This is why flying cars are a non starter, because to pilot them you need a general aviation license.
There are exceptions but it’s always in the ultralight or experimental categories. A release of this car will fit neither of those categories.
Yeah this car will never be for sale. There will be the $50,000 version which has none of the compressed air loaded into it, and a tuned up version with some boost for the 0-60. The flying car they showed yesterday was the only one that will ever do that, because it was a literal stunt for the shareholders.
Note that even the lowest even described model (50k just to reserve a spot for unspecified price and based on Tesla historically, unknown delivery date) there are issues.
They claim the active down force fan will be on that, but I hear that even on tracks they frequently aren't allowed. It's not likely to be a street legal thing, given what happens with road debris in such a scenario.
Correct. There is zero chance they ever come out with a flying car
New planes are fucking expensive. Hundreds of thousands of dollars. 50% of the cost of those planes is airframe certification and insurance for the manufacturer
Planes used to be war cheaper, but liability and bureaucracy has slowly been killing GA for a few decades
Even funnier, you're generally not allowed to land on roads so once you take off you have a problem with that flying car. Debris flying around will also be fun.
To be fair, with teslas track record we'd be lucky if a production "flying" car like this could achieve more air time than my Subaru when I go ditch banging 😂
No they don't. Good for life, although I do need to do a flight review every 24 months
Flight reviews are pretty chill, juat do a flight with an instructor (or anyone else certified to sign off on it). We should require these for drivers too on license renewal
The interior design is rather bland or let's say functional, but I think the exterior looks great. It is not crazy like some of the French trams of the "Flexity"-family but quite elegant I think.
Remote control (EDIT: Pre-scripted, no driver. Think Boston Dynamics dance videos). Imagine the shitshow if there was someone there and the Cybertruck-reveal level of preparedness played out on live broadcast.
Thing probably weighed a few hundred pounds. Putting a person in it would probably kill the thrust to weight and balance... So yeah let's see Elon test it!
It was a programmed flight. No one in the car, no one actively controlling it. Probably a handful of people monitoring different things with a big red kill switch.
The inside of that car was the smallest battery that would work, a compressed gas can or two, and bare metal. No seats, no wheel, no screen.
If someone had been in that car, and they were not in a full on stunt driver safety suit and harness, pretty good chance they'd be seriously injured, possibly paralyzed, possibly having an induced heart attack, possibly passed out / unconscious.
Sure you can make the car itself do that... but a human meatbag inside a car doing that? Much less a typically overweight/obese average American driver?
Thats a lot of extreme g forces in violently rapidly changing axes and directions.
I wonder if Elon will provide the g suit and pilot g force conditioning regimen...
Batteries are expensive. Tesla had the best value EV for a long time until alternatives with real buttons and no nazis came along so this is a weird one.
I am the opposite of a Tesla fan but when you can live with all the nonsense (no proper door handles, no real buttons, being forced to do all stuff on a tacked on iPad style panel taking eyes of the street ...), their two models they sell in Europe are still strong options when all you care about is km range/EUR and efficiency. That is likely also the reason why they still sell non-zero numbers of those. It is certainly not for the "coolness" of the brand.
That said, the Hyundai Ioniq 3 has dethroned the Tesla 3 even on the cost effective range criterion and it comes with real buttons, door handles etc and a still very practical 491 km range WLTP, at 33k EUR.
I think the actual price per range was better when I was looking. Although everything is on the screen, and not in your eyeline, the hyundai software is pretty bad, whereas the tesla software is pretty decent. Not a big enough difference for me though obviously!
I thought this was debunked as Tesla pretty much faking the energy consumption numbers. The cars seem to be average in independent real world tests. That's not really surprising as electrical motors are more or less a solved problem for a long time now.
Sorry, I did not follow that. That would make sense, how their numbers can be so damn low. I was basing my assessment on the official numbers.
That said, there is more fine tuning possible with electrical motors than many believe. The new VW platform and the BMW Neue Klasse are partially so exciting because there is still stuff that can be improved with EV motor systems.
It is brand new on the market in Europe. Just saw it now actually. I'll have to watch a review on it.
... its not available in the US? Of course it isn't. I feels almost as if the "Polo"-class were outlawed in the US.
EDIT: Sadly I have to say that I am not a big fan of some design decisions of Hyundai on the interior. For example that the entry version has no display at all behind the wheel. It has only the big "iPad" in the centre. I think this should be actually not street legal that you have to look to the central big screen for merely reading your speed. The more expensive version has a display strip behind the wheel with all those essential on-road information. Again, I don't think it should be legal to cut those safety relevant features.
Horrible, I see it also comes without real buttons. Really how is that even legal that you have to look to the right to a huge messy screen for very basic driving information like speed? Well, at least it has proper door handles, if nothing else.
This is always what I hear, but the average American drives less than 40 miles a day. I don’t get why no one makes an EV with a small battery and ~100 mile range? It would meet the daily needs of most Americans and have like 70% less battery
Because of that cowboy delusion of being able to just ride (drive) off into the sunset is still a part of the cultural identity. You are correct, that consumer wise, this would be a very efficent and ideal product for commuters. The range would get you from Boston to Heartford, or Chicago to Milwaukee, to and from any suburb to the nearest major airport, but you could not just... GO. (Far off with John Denver playing on the radio)
Or, ya know, not everyone lives on the east coast in the most densely populated area of the country? How about the 50% of the country where its an hour drive between cities? I live in Oregon and am constantly driving more than 100 miles out of town to have fun with friends. Day trips are a common thing in the US, and I'm not buying a separate car just to drive to Medford from Weed.
Even when I lived in Portland or Seattle, I still drove like 2 hours out a few times a month to hang with friends or visit family. The US is huge dude, the whole country of Ireland is like the size of Oregon. When visiting family in Kansas, Colorado, Texas, or just most of the country, the distances get way WAY bigger for just daily living.
[EDIT: I stand corrected, the state of Oregon is twice the size of Ireland]
The Renault Twingo has a WLTP range of 263 km. But that is what you want in order to have around 130 -170 km real highway range (cold/mild weather). Plenty such cars exist but very few of them are sold in the US. So these cars would not need to be created, they just needed to be sold in the US. Price point around 20k USD before tax should be realistic for these.
I'm not American but the daily drive of our car is very short. However, if we're going to have a car i want it to be suitable for the majority of our driving, which includes much longer trips every few months. I don't want to have to hire a car or own a second one for something we do multiple times a year.
You don't have DC fast charging infrastructure? For really long trips, there are trains or planes, but those middle distance trips are fine to just stop and charge every couple hours. Kia/Hyundais now are doing higher voltage on big batteries, so it's like 20 minutes for 0-100% charge on a 350 mile battery. If they threw a 200 mile battery into that, it's a 10 minute charge, but in reality you are not waiting around for that 20 minutes after driving for 5 hours; you're taking a shit and eating a meal.
But the person above talked about cars with a range suitable for a commute. Do you want to stop and charge every 50 miles? I don't. And usually those cars don't have charging systems capable of fast charging (because they're designed to be used exclusively for short trips) so it's half an hour or more each stop. No thanks!
Fast charge infrastructure exists but has limitations. It is often:
nonexistent while the car park is being refurbished (has happened to me twice)
broken
full, with no queuing system
unable to charge at the speed the car is capable of. My car should be able to get over 200kW every time, in any weather, but I think I've seen it twice, despite usually using chargers that should be capable of more.
It is always a break in the journey whether you want one or not. If you want to split the journey in half to swap drivers, or to stop at lunchtime, but there's no good charging there, tough!
Valid points. Idk if it's international, but somebody on Lemmy recommended an app called PlugShare which basically is a rating app for different charging stations. You can see reviews and know what's in service. I use ABRP to plot my route, then double check the recommended stations on PlugShare, and then actually navigate with Google Maps. Maybe that or a different tool could be helpful to you.
There are a couple like the Fiat 500 and Mini cooper EV that get around 150, but they also coat like $45K USD. Somehow the Chevy Bolt remains the cheapest option while still having 250 miles of range while also being one of the best EVs available.
But if you start looking at used cars it changes massively. You can get a 10 year old Nissan leaf that can still do 100 miles on a charge for like 3 grand. And early Bolts are also sub 10k.
I bought a used 2022 Bolt EUV in late February for $19k and my only gripe with it is the charging speed. It is incredibly rare for me to do longer drives, so it's not a regret per sé, but it's annoying that I didn't do research on that particular detail. While the Ioniq 6 has 800V architecture which allows charging at 240-350kW, I'm stuck at fucking 50. For those who don't know those units and just want real world figures, the difference is that charging from 20% to 80% takes like 15 minutes for theirs and like an hour for mine.
Most of my longer drives still aren't that long though, so that's just the situation where I actually charge up to 100% at home and just do a big charge at a meal and bathroom break like 3-4 hours in.
Just thought I'd make people aware of the caveat of the cheap Bolts, and how that still doesn't actually matter most of the time. I would've paid more for quicker charging on the road even though it would affect only a couple of drives per year.
Yeah that's definitely something people should be aware of, it's certainly something that was brought up in every bolt review I read. But like you said it's really not a big deal unless you are road tripping. I personally ended up getting a polestar 2 but that was mostly because it had double the power and a much better interior, but also cost about 8k more and has an abysmal service network that could collapse at any moment. Part of me wishes I just got the bolt.
Because even though the average American drives less than 40 miles a day, they will not buy something with that low of range because the average American still takes longer trips fairly frequently.
I mostly ride a motorcycle and barely drive my car. When I do the average trip is only around 10 miles. But every month or so I end up driving around 120 miles round trip. A 100 mile car would be pointless because I’ couldn’t even make that trip.
This comes up a lot, and as someone living in the US I genuinely can't understand how anyone would cap themselves to a 100 mile range. I've been all over the country, from big cities like LA and Seattle to rural places in Montana, Texas, and Florida. No matter where I've been, I've always needed a car that could drive at least 200 miles for a day trip.
Currently in southern Oregon. If I want to go with some friends into the nearest city to do fun stuff or go to the mall, its an hour and 45 minute drive at 55 miles and hour. If I had an EV with a range of 100 miles, I'd have like 10 miles of charge once I got into town? That is not enough, and then I'd have to wait for it to charge before going home. That just wouldn't work.
When I lived in Seattle, a pretty big city, I drove a lot further to visit friends because unless you're wealthy, living with 6 room mates, or a student in dedicated housing, you can't afford to actually live IN the city. Redmond, Issaquah, Snoqualmie Pass, Tacoma, are all a distance from the city proper, and often you'd end up driving around in those towns to do stuff after you made the trip. I don't want to be stressing about having enough charge on the day-to-day.
If you're buying a car, you're not going to buy a separate car just to leave the city, right?
If I was saving $200/month on gas I could afford other modes of transport for the once or twice a month I need to go farther than 100 miles. Or I'd be willing to stop and charge my car for 30 minutes mid-trip if it was saving me hundreds of dollars in gas each month.
With modern battery tech, that "waiting around for it to charge" would take 5-10 minutes. Let's assume that that 100 mile range car has a 30kWh battery (my 250 mile range car has 63ish I think). If it runs 800V architecture like Hyundai/Kia, it can charge at 350kW, but let's round down to 300 for easy math. Even if you got down to 0% as you got to the charger (which you wouldn't assume for a gas car getting to a gas pump, so that's a stretch), it'll be so fast to charge that it doesn't even make sense to walk away to buy a coffee.
30kWh/300kW=(1/10)h=6 minutes.
I rounded in unfavorable directions, which probably accounts for losses, more or less.
"Sounds expensive," you might be thinking. Nope. I've never seen it above $0.65/kWh, but again let's round for easier math and assuming bad luck. At $0.75/kWh, that 6 minute 0-100% 30kWh charge costs $22.50. Slightly more expensive than gas, but this is presumably for uncommon trips, so charging at home where your rate is probably closer to $0.15/kWh the vast majority of the time will more than offset those day trips since that refuel costs $4.50. Even if every other charge were at that high rate, that's still an average of $13.50 for a full tank. Assuming a gas car with 25mpg, that's like paying $3.38/gallon on average. Not great, but better than reality right now.
If it's more like every tenth charge is in the city at that high rate, then your average charge is $6.30, which is like paying an average of $1.58/gallon.
So it doesn't take longer to refuel this EV than a standard gas car, and it's cheaper than a standard gas car if you're refueling at home at least half the time. The only real variable here is whether there is a charging station at the optimal location for your journey, and those are popping up everywhere.
In reality, I agree with you, but for a different reason. For battery longevity, it's best to keep the state of charge at 20-80% most of the time. So I'd rather have a 200+ mile range to do my 100 mile trips. And that's what I did. I bought a used Bolt EUV with a range of about 240 miles (down from 250 when new) and I charge to about 75% for my daily 90ish mile commute, and I get home and plug in at like 30%.
I'm actually out of town with my EV right now. I charged to 100% at home the night before, drove a little over 2 hours to this hotel, a bit over an hour round trip for dinner last night, probably about 30 minutes round trip today, and I'll probably stop for a short charge on the way home tomorrow just for peace of mind. It's nowhere near as big a headache as most people make it out to be. For most people, if you need to buy a car and you have the ability to charge at home while you're sleeping, it doesn't make sense to not buy an EV. Used ones are still cheaper than they should be.
Well damn, that's a really compelling argument. I will say that I'll probably keep my gas car for most stuff long range, but when my partner and I eventually grab a second car for logistical reasons, maybe I'll look into EVs? Depending on how easy they are to work on. Honestly we were gonna seek out an old Tacoma since we are gonna need a truck for farm stuff soon. Idk, tough bid.
Thank you for taking the time to reply so thoroughly, genuinely.
I figure most families own 2 cars anyway; so if one was super cheap but had a 100mile limit; that would still sell well. Plus stopping to charge isn’t too big a deal
No problem. It's genuinely interesting to me, so I like helping curious, open-minded people to be exposed to how it really is. I had my doubts until I learned more, and now I know that a lot of us have been manipulated into keeping the status quo.
I'm not a farmer or anything, so I can't really endorse any EV to replace a farm truck. I'm not saying it can't work, just that I'm not knowledgeable enough to speak on that. I'm assuming you'll need good clearance and suspension, and that's well beyond what my little roller skate of a Bolt EUV specializes in lol. But it can't hurt to keep in the know because you'll need another car eventually anyway, even if your research points to another gas car now and today. For most people, plugging into a standard 120V outlet is enough (like 3 miles range per hour charge), but it's worth investigating whether you need to buy a level 2 charger and run a 240V charger (like 30 miles range per hour charge). Your driving habits will tell you what you need there, and it'd be a good idea to have that settled before buying just so you can charge at home from day one.
When it comes to how easy they are to work on, there's really not much of anything to work on. No oil so no oil changes, no radiator so no radiator work, no transmission so no transmission work, friction brakes don't wear nearly as much due to regen braking, there's no mixing of fuel and air, there's no compression or combustion, there are no spark plugs or gaskets or complications in translation. It's direct power from battery to motor(s) to wheels, with guilt-free torque, so maintenance is mostly just wipers, headlights, and tires. I reset my trip meter just to remind me to take it in for tire rotations, and the last time I did that, the guy at the desk couldn't be bothered to figure out how to charge me the $15-20 that costs so he was just like hey man, you're good, see you in a few months.
A lot of my reasoning for the switch was for convenience. No complicated maintenance schedule, and no going out of my way to stop somewhere to refuel (except for on road trips). Just plug in when I get home, then go drive when I need to. It's the most convenient way to own my transportation until we get real self driving or teleportation.
I drive out for a day trip with friends or to visit friends like every other week. Maybe I'm the exception, though all of my friends do the same so idk.
I don't honestly think the US has the technical ability anymore. The US doesn't really make much and hasn't since the seventies. That's a long time. How much of a Ford is actually made in the US? Shoot, how much is designed in the US?
Best they could do would be buy the parts, maybe make the frame, paint it and assemble. Don't make batteries, don't make screens, or chips, or leds or much of nothing.
There won't be flying cars until Autonomous Vehicles have a perfect self driving score.
Joe Average Potata-brain can't drive as it is. Now they want to add the extra chaos of multiple tons of debris falling from the sky after minor crash bends one of the stabilizer ports out of alignment?
Tesla refuses to even develop a compact 20k car they could sell at a profit. Instead the new developments focus on wankpanzers and sports cars with party tricks.
I think it's because they know they can't compete with quality or specs at the low end. They'd much rather get customers with gimmicks and "controversial" aesthetics. Chinese cars would eat anything they could build for that price for breakfast but even legacy brands like Hyundai and VW have been able to make good EVs far cheaper than Tesla.
Well, if Hyundai, Kia, VW, Renault and others can compete on reasonably priced compact cars, Tesla should be able to do so too. They do not only produce in the US after all. If they can't that would be just an admission that their future is that of a niche highend producer. But for that, they are a bit too cheap on the inside.
Tesla doesn't want to produce cheap cars. Tesla wants to be a premium brand.
They could spin off a value brand, like the opposite of what Hyundai did with Genesis. And they don't want to do that, because that means less money. Much more effective to lobby to keep cheap Chinese cars out of the country.
A premium brand that cuts costs at any corner and even proudly proclaims though? Their main selling cars (model 3 and Y) are not premium cars, they are mid range cars and certainly not known for having a premium feel, rather to deliver a very good range for the price and the software stuff.
Then sell it for 20k it would still be one of the cheapest on the market. That seems like a pretty braindead leap in logic. The "at cost" comparison is just to show how cheap the baseline should be.
If we’re talking about “society” then the way forward is to get rid of cars almost entirely and have extremely robust public transport. Not make new cars.
Yes but let's say, in the interim, we make cars that are more efficient and better for the environment, and make them affordable enough that everyone can use one.
Maybe, but you cannot expect an entire societal mindset to change overnight, and for many, it's never going to change. Society in many places can't even agree that women are equal to men, which is like, step one for any other equality mindset going down the line, for example. Because it's been engrained into culture.
Even places with better mass transit than the US like Europe or Japan still have cars. Mas transit works great in some areas and terrible in others. Which is also why its going to be impossible to make it work 100% of the time for 100% of situations.
Even before cars, we had "individual transport" with things like carts and horses etc. mass Transit isn't even an old concept.
But why pay all that money for a truck when you can
... Because of Modularity. If the rich don't fuck it up for us, big if, then small time after market companies will flourish selling their mods.
I can't remember the name of the principle. But my pal explained it to me. It's almost impossible for small business to compete with production of scale. So one way to survive is to work find a way to add an extra 20% of hand done work machines can't do to the product. Add a proverbial "cherry on the top" to your business. You let the mass producers do 80% of the work (Slate); Then you add your 20% custom made finish to make the final product.
I like the example of cheap drinking glasses and Podstakannik. But a more familiar example would be painting miniatures for money.
Well if you compare used for used 40k is still way too much for any truck. People who need a work vehicle will buy a van. Massive pickup trucks are for man babies who would rather crush toddlers than have people question their sexuality.
You know, the “just buy a work van” is such a straw man argument. People can’t afford to own two vehicles, and they sure as shit don’t want to try driving around a work van with shitty suspension as a daily driver. Pull up to dinner in something that looks like it should say “Free Candy” on the side.
While I don’t disagree that many people drive trucks that have no reason to be driving them (looking at Dodge Ram owners with flags flying off the back of them) believe or not some people can only afford to own one vehicle and want something that works for them and is comfortable.
If I didn’t have the job I did, believe me, I wouldn’t be driving something that only gets 17 mpg. Got sent out of town and the rental place hooked me up with a Dodge Charger. Holy crap I forgot what it was like to not have to swing out to make a U-turn and not have trouble finding a parking space. Only problem is, you can’t throw a ladder and a pack out in the back of a car, and you can’t pull a 7500 lb scissor lift on a trailer when you need to.
I'm still a little salty about my experience trying to test drive a used Ioniq 6. It was on the site for like $23k I think. I reserved it and then got an email saying that they'd already sold it, but they have a new one available to see for like $55k. I like my Bolt EUV a lot, but Ioniq 6 was my first choice, and I've since only discovered more reasons to be envious lol. My 50kW level 3 charging is incredibly sluggish compared to the 300ish that they can do, even if it's rare for me to have to use it at all.
I have a lot of buttons and switches, but I have to tap the screen to select and deselect HVAC vents. That's annoying while driving. There's a button for max defog, but I don't want to keep cycling that on and off. Just give me a damn knob.
I was checking out used 2023 EVs recently, and some models were in the low 20 kUSD range. Accounting for inflation, that's less than I paid when I bought my used ICE car (17 kUSD) in 2014. The main detractor for me is that level 3 chargers degrade the batteries, and as a renter, I don't have a place to charge at home. But if you own a home and can charge an EV there, there's really no reason to buy an ICE car these days if you just want a commuter vehicle.
If you're willing to spend 20k+ on a car, then sure. Meanwhile, you can get a reliable and economic ICE car that you can drive 100,000+ miles for under 5k.
Found within 1 minute of searching, so it's probably not the best deal (plus it's from a realer, which is more expensive than buying from an individual).
Agreed. From what I've looked up, it's going outside of 20ish-80ish% charge frequently that's degrading the batteries quickly. Or fully charging and then leaving out in the hot sun.
I live in the US and I would love to buy an electric vespa-style scooter that can do 45 mph. They are virtually non-existent here (there is something called the Aventura-X which costs $5000). Even if I could get one, there are no places around that could service it. And it's not like I live in rural South Dakota or anything - I live in a Philly suburb.
The thing is used EVs are so affordable that it's basically impossible for western companies to make something cheap enough to compete. The real answer is to allow Chinese EVs to be sold in the US.
That's true until enough people wise up to the fact that a 3 year old used EV is nowhere near as worthless as a 3 year old used iPhone. That misunderstanding is what's keeping demand so low, which is why the price is so low. I shouldn't have been able to sell my 2016 RAV4 with 70k miles for $14k and buy a 2022 Bolt EUV with 50k miles for $19k earlier this year.
Chinese EVs won't be sold in the US any time soon. They are too big of a threat to American automakers, and the lust for profit growth will prevent any reasonable attempt at competing. Also, US infrastructure is so car-dependent that offshoring such a massive amount of car manufacturing would become a threat to national security. There's a big concern that by allowing Chinese EVs here, we would be handing the world to China; the uncomfortable truth is that we don't really have anything to offer to China these days. They've already won, and we're all just going through the motions of playing the final couple of rounds. They've dominated domestic infrastructure, renewable energy tech, battery tech, global soft power, etc. Next will be water purification, space exploration, and nuclear fusion. China invested in themselves and their future, and it's finally paying off.
Idk what the world looks like ten years from now in 2036, but I know that China will be leaps and bounds ahead of the US in pretty much every metric. Mostly because we've pissed away the past ten years being run by a fascist toddler, and walking back the fascist sprinting of the fascist toddler, and we'll be spending the next ten years attempting to convince former friends and allies that the fascist toddler is behind us and we won't do that again so please let's make deals again that could theoretically be nuked by another fascist toddler. Meanwhile, China just keeps innovating and sharing.
Yeah right now buying a used EV is easily the best value you can get when buying a car. And I agree that eventually people will wise up, but any time you're waiting on the American consumer to wise up, you're going to be waiting for quite a while.
I'd expect in 10 years either half of all car sales are electric or the government has gone full isolationist and banned all ev sales. Could go either way.
I hate that that's truly an uncertainty. Dipshits could sincerely celebrate freedom while banning a reasonable option, and they wouldn't see any contradiction. "We want small government but also big daddy government needs to do prohibition for the things I don't want."
It's supposedly not, but even then, why should we give a shit about this stupid demo? They basically dressed a SpaceX rocket up like a car. That's it.
None of what is shown here is ever, and yes, I absolutely mean EVER, going to make it into a production car. Why? I can boil it down to 3 reasons.
It would be unsafe as shit for any car to have the capability of doing any of this. I'm sure everyone here can agree that most drivers are fucking stupid and are a danger to everyone around them. Now give them the ability to drive like they're in fucking GTA.
It's expensive as shit.
Most importantly. It is fucking impractical and stupid. Not only is most of the space in the car wasted on rocket parts. How much energy does it take to do something like this? How much energy is stored in a Tesla battery? Anything short of a small nuclear reactor inside the car, would make the ability to do this, at best, impractical. It's just so unfathomably retarded to want a car that can do this, because it shows a basic lack of understanding of the laws of physics.
This is a media stunt, made by the biggest egotistical piece of shit in history, nothing more.
The car, by the looks of it, is probably just a very lightweight body with some thrusters and gyroscopes. Meaning, it's not a full car like we're used to, but rather just a plastic replica made specifically for this demo. Add some thrusters, make sure it looks ok. There you go.
Do we trust the company that pretended to have fully autonomous robots that were clearly being piloted backstage? The company that has lied about 'self-driving technology' for decades, which has already killed dozens of people because it's complete dogshit at what it does.
I don't feel inclined to believe them here either lol
I was fully convinced this was the case but I think they might have actually done it for some reason. There's no fucking way that you'll be able to buy a car that does what they did in the demo. I think it's safe to assume the car that flew doesn't have a full sized battery and was probably missing some of the other heavier components. It's really fucking stupid but I think that car actually did all that crap.
No, you walk 10 minutes to the bus stop, then wait 20 minutes for the bus to come, then an hour for it to go around to the other stops and get to your destination, then work 8 hours, then oops, buses don't run as much after 5, so now you wait 50 minutes for the bus because it comes hourly and you get off at 5, then ride another 30 minutes, then walk back in 15 (because you are slower and tired.)
What's annoying is people hyping up these "cheap" Slate trucks because they don't realize they don't even paint the fucking things so you're replacing a $3k wrap every three years and calling yourself frugal and environment friendly.
ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT HOW MUCH YOU DON'T LIKE SLATE EVs?! 😬
I am so excited for the Slate trucks. I wish I had the $300 for the preorder down payment oof. My uncle says that the Slate SUV would sell better because most people needing cars just go back and forth from work or the grocery story. 30-60 miles tops. The Slate says it has a 200 mile range so 160 miles should be a safe bet.
I wish Slate would pay me to advertise for Slate but here I am doing it for free like a chump. Free labor is the cornerstone of the american market though.
I am weary that a big investor for Slate is the gold hording dragon known has jeff bazos. But we'll see what happens.
P.S Yeah Europeans, we drive 50-100km one way to work, five days a week. But it's worth the FREEDOM. 🔫 🦅 🔫 Do ya'll even have a gun rack in y'ur truck? I feel bad for ya'll. What are y'uh gunna do when the Technomacers from Alpha Centuri V team up with the Underground Lizard People and invade us? How are ya'll gunna protect y'urselves? With a bright torch and a stern talking too? 🤨
No you do not have to buy a wrap. That is literally false.
Well like, literally everything degrades with time. The sun is a giant microwave after all.
Furthermore, are we under the same understanding that Automotive Paint is like some real expensive shit since the paint has to survival literally every kind of environment in the world?
There's a really cool "How It's Made" episode on it. Though now that I think of it maybe it was propaganda to normalize expensive paint costs... 🤔
Ah ok it looks like you're right. I thought I'd seen a video where they said they designed the panels to be able to withstand the elements. Full wraps start at $500 though.
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I've wrote this before and I'll write it again. Conversion kits need to become mainstream. It's like my old Jeep can have pretty much any engine. Someone converted theirs with using parts from a junk yard Tesla.
as battery tech improves and electric motors become more powerful and ubiquitous it'll happen. there's a small market of people converting classic cars to ev. one day I'd like to convert my old honda element. I don't need 300 miles range, give me 80 and it'll be fine for grabbing lumber or taking junk to the dump.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53ZV1GMrf50
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqcHIQmWgIs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d53aNHMMai0
and a host of companies trying to cater to the market -
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/T4WWHvZODz4
dig around and there's a lot more. there's a lot of rolling stock that can be swapped eventually, it would be stupid to condemn all that metal to scrap.
Totally agree. It sounds like you live in Vermont or the like. I think of how the star trek movie had a electric corvette.
And it'll be extra nice because those kits could also deshitify the car in the process. Oh, you stuck a dependency on a functional phone home system in the fuel injection loop? Who cares after I've removed the fuel injectors?
That's what I want.
There is a whole chunk of people wanting the diesel electric conversion kits Deboss Garage is developing with Edison Motors.
https://debossgarage.com/builds/diesel-electric-edison-pickup
(yes it will be possible to have a big battery instead of an engine + smaller battery)
Pretty cool if it's legit. The west side Germany 300 got me a giggle. Bookmarked it. Okay, I just finished. I can't believe this tech is out. I have read about how well it does with frying oil.
Lmao Bollywood type shit for the plebs
Go get a used Chevy Bolt or Nissan Leaf. Tesla ain't the only EV in the US.
Hyundai Ioniq 5 is the best small EV in the USA. I highly recommend it.
Business idea: Very cheap electric city car with low range, but standardised commodity batteries you can rent for long journeys.
Making batteries exchangeable adds a lot of costs and overhead. The battery changing infrastructure is even a greater nightmare. Nio tried it and failed. With batteries getting better and better, this concept also is getting less and less feasible. It is really easier and cheaper to expand infrastructure of long range EV renting. That said, in Europe taking the train and renting an EV at the destination (range is not much of an issue then either) is probably the more relaxed option anyway, if a car is needed at all.
Why not a city car EV and just rent another car when you need to make long journeys?
Or for me in the UK, why would I want a car, you can't even drink in it. Trains have staff to sell me a drink.
Having sat on a rail replacement bus inching its way towards Stansted down the M11 while the takeoff time loomed closer and closer, I think I'll pass on that for important journeys.
Quite happy to take it to work, the worst that happens there is a shorter working day.
Because motorways are famously never going to leave you stuck in traffic...
Go ahead with your idea. You might discover how the American consumer really feels about EVs.
Home charging is easily better for city car. Only two use cases for changeable batteries are commercial two wheelers and trailer trucks. And for trucks you'll need to change out the driver too. There are ones being trialed which use a forklift to change it out.
Most cheap EVs have a battery you need to rent, and they are "standard" to the company (proprietary)
Isn't there Renault 4/5 or Kia EV 2 in USA? They seem perfect
No renaults at all, and no kia ev2 here. Affordable cars are pretty much completely gone from our market.
Oh damn, and with Chinese brands not allowed, its pretty much waiting for Japanese brands for you all
The US is basically walling up its market against affordable compact cars. That can't be the whole reason however. After all, Renault could sell the R5 or Twingo in the US if it wanted I assume. Are the regulations there so incredibly hostile towards compact cars, or do European companies resent producing compact cars as well and just do it in Europe because they absolutely have to, in order to survive?
Americans don't like cars any smaller than a house because they make you gay
What do gay Americans drive?
Outbacks or Foresters
Small fast cars
The US buyer is obsessed with size, power and automatic transmission. Almost half of Americans believe “Made in USA” equates to a superior product. There are tariffs and a vast distribution network is required. Cars would have to be significantly adapted to follow US regulations.
oh great a flying car, can't wait for an "update" at the zenith to shut everything down, then smash itself in the ground while I'm in it. It will explode into flames, and I'll try to climb out but oh no! The door won't open.
Fantastic
I'll wait until analog buttons return and perhaps even update control. What year will it be before the car remembers my custom settings? 2050? Can we do this by 2050?
p.s. somebody please make a simple car, electric, electric hybrid, and gasoline, that has easy repair access and interchangeable batteries. Remove the fucking TV and return to buttons so you don't have to scan a screen while driving. A basic generic car that you can upgrade if you'd like. Something you can drive to death, like the classic Honda Civic of yore.
There's some reason nobody is making is car, because people want it... is it governmental regulation? I don't know
They make those cars. But in Melonski land it was made Illegal to sell them because "China scawwy, god bless gunland".
My EV only cost 1.5K
Its an iron!
Well, Leon Hitler will remotely shut the pile of bolts down on you while in mid-flight.
Elon is releasing the cheapest ev in the US.
What are you talking about?
They also fill it all sorts of unnecessary shit while forgoing basic safety features such as, idk, being able to open the door in the event of power failure.
Or being able to adjust the A/C or ventilation blind without being forced to take the eyes off the road and redirect them towards a complicated screen layout.
Cheapest in USA is still expensive compared to what you get outside the USA, with similar safety standards, but different tradeoffs on luxury, features and range
I agree with that
We are talking about that car not being cheap.
They are releasing the cheapest EV on the American market.
You do know the difference between "cheapest" and "cheap", do you? What is its price point?
The official "25k" is what they are shooting for.
Nah I'm good. I don't want a klanborghini from him.
Oh I like this. The Swastikar Deplorean is joined by the Swastikar Klanborghini.
Oh that's sharp. Thanks for this
You see, Europeans cannot have the Cybertruck. Americans cannot have the R5. I can live with that, but then, I am European.
25k€. It's insane to me how expensive European EVs are. How did they fuck this up so badly?
Not really much more than what the Chinese charge here, also those that avoid special tariffs.
Europe's loss really though, euro cars sell well here but since you refuse to sell us the EV versions, China is already taking over and Euro cars are already on the back foot, I don't think they'll ever gain the marketshare they had either.
I am not Renault. I have no idea why they are not selling it in the US or Australia. It is very well possible that they already have given up Australia against the Chinese. The "Made in Europe" argument certainly has less weight there than in Europe. Like I said, I am not sitting in the strategy meetings of Renault but if I had to guess they are choosing their retreat battles already.
I choose to believe you are Renault's corporate personhood! (obviously you're not)
Also you'd be surprised how much weight 'made in europe' carries still.
Renault had seemingly given up on hatchbacks for the Aussie market, it feels like only a few years ago the Megane and Clio were all over our roads.
I can’t particularly blame them, though. We have something like ~5% of the population of Europe in about the same landmass, our regulations (ADRs) quite onerous, we drive on the other side of the road compared to continental Europe, and the logistical costs of sending a finished vehicle from Europe to Oceania makes it quite difficult to compete economically against Chinese, Korean and Japanese brands.
I say this as someone heartbroken, who absolutely adores the designs of European marques like Peugeot, Renault, Alfa Romeo, Abarth and Citroen - they are all undeniably cool.
I'm your defense you drive on the same side as the UK which does have an R5, you'd think selling more of them would reduce the UK specific tooling cost per car. The driving upside down bit is probably trickier, I'll concede that.
Damn, I wish the Canadian market wasn't tied to the US
No, we need more rail. Enough with cars.
We can't afford that either, look at California.
"hyperloop" lol
Yeah Americans are shit at doing hsr
And dedicated bike lanes.
I'd take more Heavy rail, light rail, bike lanes, better city layouts, AND cheap electric cars.
No, because poor people won't pay in advance for a car that is "coming next year" (
2021,2022,2023,2024,2025,2026, 2027...?)They said it's coming out on 2028 this time, so maybe this time instead of "next year" it would be "2 years later".
Does that mean it's 50% more likely or less likely to come out next decade?
Less, if they give it another 3 years ("in the next 5 years"), it's at fusion reactor level, so basically not in your lifetime.
We think your great great grandhybrids are gonna love it
I visited a friend in australia who can finally afford a brand new car on a funeral assistant's wage because of how cheap chinese EVs are. Even has in-seat massagers.
Don't ever by a brand new car that is fresh of the production line. That is the biggest decrease of value you could do with your money.
If you absolutely have to own a shiny new thing then buy yourself a car that is 6-12 months old. You will get the same "new car feeling" but you will save a lot of money.
If you can find a car that is 6-12 months old, sure. Assuming it wasn’t a rental in a previous life. Or a lemon returned by its previous owner due to massive issues.
Most people who buy new cars keep them for a relatively long time. And during that time they require minimal maintenance.
The “biggest decrease of value” assumes that, to you, the value of the car is determined by what you could sell it for. But that’s not the case. To you, the value of the car is what you spent on it. You then amortize that value of the car over the years you operate it. The only person who can tell you whether you got out of a car what you paid for it is you.
This. I just was able to buy my first ever "new" new car after years of every "new" car being at minimum 10 years old. I've got an '06 Forester with nearly 200k miles on it, and I'm hoping this new one will last as long (but I kind of doubt it).
Regardless, I'm not leasing, not planning on selling in 5 years. To me, the peace of mind of a new car warranty is worth it and it gets way better mileage than the old Forester.
Boomer advice. You’ll save $3000 and not have the original factory warranty and you’ll still have to pay for cpo.
You'll save a lot more on EVs - https://autos.yahoo.com/ev-and-future-tech/articles/aaa-ran-evs-hybrids-gas-191800888.html
Yeah, the mark down on used cars in the US now just isn't worth it. I looked at cars recently and a 2 year old car with 45k+ miles was like 4k below sticker for a new one across the street. And you didn't get to pick your color or add accessories you took what they had.
Isn't the mark down on used EVs (not ICE) a lot more?
These were hybrids. I think EVs used to have higher markdown because of battery life concerns, but batteries have proven to have better lifespans than expected. So I don't know how true that is now.
It still seems to be holding currently. EVs depreciate like crazy in USA - https://autos.yahoo.com/ev-and-future-tech/articles/aaa-ran-evs-hybrids-gas-191800888.html
You used to save 30% plus. You still can on lease returns sometimes and the warranty should continue until the mileage or time runs out.
There are still some deals out there, but yeah a 1 year old car is going to be either too expensive or risky for mechanical or some other weird reason.
OK non-boomer
New cars are also full of surveillance. My advice is to stick with 20 year old cars that aren't full of bullshit and touch screens.
The new EVs in Australia are priced so aggressively with discounts that they are often cheaper than both EVs and ICEs 6-12 months old.
Don't buy a new car if you value your money.
Whatever you think will be covered by warranty, won't be, or you will need to fight them to the end to get it, then the mechanics will hate you because they hate warranty work, they will do a shit job because they're paid way less than normal work.
And you have no idea what glaring issues that car has because it's not existed long enough for people to know and post online.
Don't get a new fucking car please for the love of god, save yourself the headache.
Those new idiot sized cars surely are good for funeral business
Some chinese EV actually come in fun size. Like Geely EX2 and Wuling Binguo, it's about the size of Ford Fiesta but round, and BYD Seal is a midsized sedan similarly to the Accord. Unfortunately, most EV tend to be SUV for some reason, so the fault is not solely on Chinese EV.
Yeah it's not just Chinese EVs, just almost all that are on the streets
And they're not like SUVs, but more like oversized hatchbacks
Compact SUV, i guess. It's still too big for my liking. There's also a lot of jeep-type EV (iCar) on the road now.
The subcompact SUVs aka crossovers are essentially lifted hatchbacks. I prefer those because they have the same compact size but with better ground clearance.
Surely that can't be a real name
Funny name for funny car
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wuling_Binguo
Looks like a Tesla model 3 and a Fiat 500 had a baby
I like the massive USB port at the front
It always takes three tries to connect it into charge.
I walked past a Tesla showroom recently and they had one car on the floor that they still sell, one that they haven't sold in decades, a frame to a car that's out of production, and a robot they still don't produce. They used to have more cars out then they stopped producing them. The stock is still high somehow.
The original roadster is still so cool to me. I wish a small relatively light ev sports car was sold in the US. I don't want a barge with 800 HP I'd much rather have something nimble with a quarter of the power.
There was very little original with the roadtser. The chassis is just a Lotus Elise that they stuffed an EV drivetrain into.
And there are some small ones. The Kia EV3 is 201hp and under 30k.
Yeah I know and that's exactly why it was good, because the elise already had an incredible sports car chassis.
The EV3 seems like a fine commuter but is certainly not a sports car in weight, shape, chassis, or suspension. It's just another compact crossover, seemingly a good one, but not really what I'm talking about. In the US the closest thing is probably the Mini Cooper SE, but it's still heavier and less powerful than the original roadster.
Imagine if Mazda made an mx-5 EV or Toyota made an 86 EV.
Mazda confirmed the next generation of MX-5 will include EV and petrol powertrain options.
Hell yeah. Hopefully it comes to all of their markets unlike the Mazda 6e
I'm pro-EV in general (pro-trains notwithstanding), but don't see the point in that. I'd rather they just got the people who designed the MX-5 and GT86 to design EV sports cars on their own terms. An MX-5 EV would just be there to remind you how much more fun the ICE version was to drive.
Well yeah I don't mean literally make the same car but an EV. Of course there are special considerations that need to be made when designing a different type of car. The main reason most EVs aren't very fun is because most of them haven't been designed to be.
I bought a used 2023 Hyundai Ioniq 5 for $25k. 30k miles. I know its still not cheap, but the ask the batteries have a 100k+ warranty.
77kW 220-280 miles at 100% (though I rarely go beyond 90% for battery life). 0-60 in 4.5 seconds, all wheel drive, CCS charger with NACS adapters available. Tesla chargers max at 96kW just fyi, idk why. But a lot of quick chargers work better, there's 2 65xkW, 4x180kW near me. There's a 4x375kW and a 4x400kW on a regular distance trip I take. Those are stupid fast charging.
A standard 120v is 1.4kW max, and it works out to about 10%/11hrs. A 240v is much better (i can't remember maybe its like 10kW) charges fully in about 8 hours.
Kia and Hyundai are awesome EVs. I've heard good things about Subaru's. The Chevy Bolt I've heard less good about. Toyota's EVs are disappointing. Avoid Polestar - they aren't allowed to sell in the US anymore anyway, but the car has a fancy interior and is fun to drive until the AC stops working. And it's got weird software license gates for hardware it has.
Also don't find reasons to funnel money to Musk.
Subaru and Toyota's EVs are the same cars with mild restyles, both should be similar mechanically and reliability wise. The Uncharted is definitely the nicest of the bunch in my mind, though.
2027 Chevy Bolt driver here 👋. Urban car-dependent locale unfortunately.
Freaking love the Bolt. Got some good incentives and bought new, which felt sorta foolish at the time. Never ever bought new before. (But there were no used models under like 100,000 miles around us, and they were old ones with slow charging.)
It is a touch smaller than our CR-V, but they vastly improved this model and I enjoy it a lot. The LT was quite affordable, and I don't ask for much luxury. (IMHO my Honda Element was the best car ever.)
There's also third party module to get Android auto to work, I'm considering that.
I can say one thing though, even though having a payment sucks, I feel vindicated every time I drive by $6 gas.
I recently heard that Honda might be bringing the Element back in a few years. I hope it's true. I really wanted an Element when they were still in production, but couldn't afford one back then
They keep teasing it over and over. AGH. It kills me! Like every year a new bunch of articles pop up to generate clicks. I can never tell when it's real! Lol
And I thought I was CRAZY for thinking "Could I EV convert it?" (Could fix stuff with YouTube. Not a mechanic.)
Well, now I see converting cars becoming a big thing. But sadly I screwed up the whole engine by snapping a 10mm gooseneck bolt deep in some crevice deep down in there, and it was leaking oil, and I had to sell it for scrap because we needed to get to work. Tragic. I got almost 200,000 miles out of it. :( :(
...at least now I know how a new very simple way to sabotage a vehicle hardcore in a way no mechanic or machinist would dare bother with it. (Ask me how I know Lol)
Maybe that Element EV will be a thing. I know EVs like to chase high efficiency / low drag but they need to not be afraid to be boxy for the right audience instead of jelly beans! XD
Haha well it didn't have much of a reputation for efficiency, did it? I heard it would come back as a hybrid though, which might be cool if they can pull it off without sacrificing too much interior space.
Hahaha yeah, it was a bit of a brick! 😂 25MPG on a good day wasn't bad though.
But I mean hey, if Rivian can make those gargantuan Amazon vans electric, I'm sure Honda could figure it out for us. 😉 With enough infrastructure, range is pretty negotiable!
Might just have to raise the interior floor a bit to fill it with battery or make the hood space a little less snubby. :p
Would be super cool though. I'd be all over that haha.
I really like my '23 Bolt EUV. I bought it when it was new, and it's been perfectly reliable ever since. Like you, it was the first time I ever bought new. I've got no regrets!
Hehehehe I DO get that vindication.
240V can vary depending on the amperage and what the individual charger can handle. Power = Voltage x Current. I ran a 60A line, but for continuous loads you can only do 80%, so I get 240V x 48A which is about 11.5kW. There are always losses, so 10ish is a fair guess for real world time expectations.
As a Bolt EUV owner, I'm very envious of your charge speeds on the road, even though I wouldn't make much use of it.
For 240V most people use a dryer outlet which is 30 amps. 30A x 240V = 7.2kW before resistance and conversion losses, etc. Use a 50 amp circuit and outlet and you can achieve 12kW with the same stipulations.
I've had a polestar for a couple years now, and it's by far my favorite vehicle. It has quirks, but most I can get past. I also have a kia EV and I fucking hate it. It forces you to get handheld through everything and it has some really dumb software choices. Everything I hate about then could be changed with a software update to give options, but I don't foresee that happening ever.
It was really fun, don't get me wrong. I miss the small amount of extra power it had. The shifter was cool.
But the tire sensors kept going off, and the AC just dying and requiring me to do a fancy start sequence to get it going again was just impractical. Also it didn't have smart cruise control, barely any storage space, max charge was like 210 miles, and the backup camera was almost useless.
That was a 2023 polestar 2, so i cant speak for other models or newer ones.
That's fair, my tire settings need reset a few times per year. I don't have the ac problem, but the sound for the speakers doesn't work maybe once a month for some reason. Like I said, definitely quirks, but much better than my experience with the kia.
The things I don't like on the kia are deliberate design decisions (or perhaps wild after thoughts in design) that I have to deal with every single time I drive it. I don't know if I've ever had the level of disdain for a vehicle ever. In fairness, there is a lot to like, but I feel like it's definitely vehicle for people who either don't like driving, are passive drivers and indifferent to the vehicle or both.
Here’s the thing everyone seems to be forgetting. Once a motorized vehicle leaves the ground under powered flight it is no longer under DOT’s domain it is now under FAA’s domain. FAA licenses are way harder to get and way easier to lose. They also require annual tests to keep. This is why flying cars are a non starter, because to pilot them you need a general aviation license.
There are exceptions but it’s always in the ultralight or experimental categories. A release of this car will fit neither of those categories.
It will be like flying an ultralight over your own land. And it won't even be legal on public road.
Yeah this car will never be for sale. There will be the $50,000 version which has none of the compressed air loaded into it, and a tuned up version with some boost for the 0-60. The flying car they showed yesterday was the only one that will ever do that, because it was a literal stunt for the shareholders.
From my memory, it's just a $50k reservation, and if that's the case, it's going to cost a lot more than that in actuality.
I think you're correct
Note that even the lowest even described model (50k just to reserve a spot for unspecified price and based on Tesla historically, unknown delivery date) there are issues.
They claim the active down force fan will be on that, but I hear that even on tracks they frequently aren't allowed. It's not likely to be a street legal thing, given what happens with road debris in such a scenario.
They saw the McMurtry Spéirling and got jealous, how cute 😂
(The Spéirling can hold itself upside down on a flat surface)
Correct. There is zero chance they ever come out with a flying car
New planes are fucking expensive. Hundreds of thousands of dollars. 50% of the cost of those planes is airframe certification and insurance for the manufacturer
Planes used to be war cheaper, but liability and bureaucracy has slowly been killing GA for a few decades
Even funnier, you're generally not allowed to land on roads so once you take off you have a problem with that flying car. Debris flying around will also be fun.
What will be even more fun is getting eviscerated by an exploding pressurized gas tank they use to do that shit, in the tiniest crash known to man.
*accidentally bumps stray shopping cart in parking lot*
You can land on roads. It's just rare it would be safe and a good idea
Big tire super cubs do it pretty often in rural Alaska
Biggest problems landing on roads is power lines and traffic. If either are present, it's emergency only
To be fair, with teslas track record we'd be lucky if a production "flying" car like this could achieve more air time than my Subaru when I go ditch banging 😂
No they don't. Good for life, although I do need to do a flight review every 24 months
Flight reviews are pretty chill, juat do a flight with an instructor (or anyone else certified to sign off on it). We should require these for drivers too on license renewal
Not to mention insurance.
Also, don't pilots need to take annual physicals?
I just want public transit...
Here you go:
Oh, did you mean in the US?
I would ride this just to ride this
The interior design is rather bland or let's say functional, but I think the exterior looks great. It is not crazy like some of the French trams of the "Flexity"-family but quite elegant I think.
I work on those, they are pretty nice to work on when compared to the previous ULF trams, but nothing beats the old E2 trams
The current administration is in the process of abolishing what little we have. And they will.
Public transit is mostly at the city and state levels. Amtrak is the only exception I can think of.
A lot of systems get federal money, or did.
Was anyone driving that car or was it just a remote controlled shell with compressed air thrusters?
I don't believe them that it was compromised air, it was probably actually a monopropellant given its space x tech.
Remote control (EDIT: Pre-scripted, no driver. Think Boston Dynamics dance videos). Imagine the shitshow if there was someone there and the Cybertruck-reveal level of preparedness played out on live broadcast.
Thought so. Let's see Elon showcase this himself, on an actual road.
Did you mean "an actual cliff on a very windy day during a thunderstorm while a pack of seagulls crashes into his windshield"?
(Edit: Sorry Seagulls, but it was for a good cause!)
Thing probably weighed a few hundred pounds. Putting a person in it would probably kill the thrust to weight and balance... So yeah let's see Elon test it!
What are you talking about? SpaceX's COPVs are famously reliable! Nothing could possibly go wrong!
It was a programmed flight. No one in the car, no one actively controlling it. Probably a handful of people monitoring different things with a big red kill switch.
The inside of that car was the smallest battery that would work, a compressed gas can or two, and bare metal. No seats, no wheel, no screen.
If someone had been in that car, and they were not in a full on stunt driver safety suit and harness, pretty good chance they'd be seriously injured, possibly paralyzed, possibly having an induced heart attack, possibly passed out / unconscious.
Sure you can make the car itself do that... but a human meatbag inside a car doing that? Much less a typically overweight/obese average American driver?
Thats a lot of extreme g forces in violently rapidly changing axes and directions.
I wonder if Elon will provide the g suit and pilot g force conditioning regimen...
(obviously he will not)
Batteries are expensive. Tesla had the best value EV for a long time until alternatives with real buttons and no nazis came along so this is a weird one.
I am the opposite of a Tesla fan but when you can live with all the nonsense (no proper door handles, no real buttons, being forced to do all stuff on a tacked on iPad style panel taking eyes of the street ...), their two models they sell in Europe are still strong options when all you care about is km range/EUR and efficiency. That is likely also the reason why they still sell non-zero numbers of those. It is certainly not for the "coolness" of the brand.
That said, the Hyundai Ioniq 3 has dethroned the Tesla 3 even on the cost effective range criterion and it comes with real buttons, door handles etc and a still very practical 491 km range WLTP, at 33k EUR.
Yeah. I have an ioniq 6 so am pretty on board with those
The Ioniq 6 is basically a Tesla 3 killer.
If it weren't for the nazism and my desire for buttons I would've got a model 3. So maybe I don't see it as a 'killer' but it ticked my boxes
What do you think does the Tesla model 3 better than the Ioniq 6?
I think the actual price per range was better when I was looking. Although everything is on the screen, and not in your eyeline, the hyundai software is pretty bad, whereas the tesla software is pretty decent. Not a big enough difference for me though obviously!
I thought this was debunked as Tesla pretty much faking the energy consumption numbers. The cars seem to be average in independent real world tests. That's not really surprising as electrical motors are more or less a solved problem for a long time now.
Sorry, I did not follow that. That would make sense, how their numbers can be so damn low. I was basing my assessment on the official numbers.
That said, there is more fine tuning possible with electrical motors than many believe. The new VW platform and the BMW Neue Klasse are partially so exciting because there is still stuff that can be improved with EV motor systems.
Hadn’t heard of the ioniq 3 until now, and that looks pretty great. Of course, it’s not available in the US.
It is brand new on the market in Europe. Just saw it now actually. I'll have to watch a review on it. ... its not available in the US? Of course it isn't. I feels almost as if the "Polo"-class were outlawed in the US.
EDIT: Sadly I have to say that I am not a big fan of some design decisions of Hyundai on the interior. For example that the entry version has no display at all behind the wheel. It has only the big "iPad" in the centre. I think this should be actually not street legal that you have to look to the central big screen for merely reading your speed. The more expensive version has a display strip behind the wheel with all those essential on-road information. Again, I don't think it should be legal to cut those safety relevant features.
Ugh, it’s like the Volvo EX30 then.
Horrible, I see it also comes without real buttons. Really how is that even legal that you have to look to the right to a huge messy screen for very basic driving information like speed? Well, at least it has proper door handles, if nothing else.
I really hope the Ioniq 3 comes to North America :<
This is always what I hear, but the average American drives less than 40 miles a day. I don’t get why no one makes an EV with a small battery and ~100 mile range? It would meet the daily needs of most Americans and have like 70% less battery
Because of that cowboy delusion of being able to just ride (drive) off into the sunset is still a part of the cultural identity. You are correct, that consumer wise, this would be a very efficent and ideal product for commuters. The range would get you from Boston to Heartford, or Chicago to Milwaukee, to and from any suburb to the nearest major airport, but you could not just... GO. (Far off with John Denver playing on the radio)
Or, ya know, not everyone lives on the east coast in the most densely populated area of the country? How about the 50% of the country where its an hour drive between cities? I live in Oregon and am constantly driving more than 100 miles out of town to have fun with friends. Day trips are a common thing in the US, and I'm not buying a separate car just to drive to Medford from Weed.
Even when I lived in Portland or Seattle, I still drove like 2 hours out a few times a month to hang with friends or visit family. The US is huge dude, the whole country of Ireland is like the size of Oregon. When visiting family in Kansas, Colorado, Texas, or just most of the country, the distances get way WAY bigger for just daily living.
[EDIT: I stand corrected, the state of Oregon is twice the size of Ireland]
The Renault Twingo has a WLTP range of 263 km. But that is what you want in order to have around 130 -170 km real highway range (cold/mild weather). Plenty such cars exist but very few of them are sold in the US. So these cars would not need to be created, they just needed to be sold in the US. Price point around 20k USD before tax should be realistic for these.
I'm not American but the daily drive of our car is very short. However, if we're going to have a car i want it to be suitable for the majority of our driving, which includes much longer trips every few months. I don't want to have to hire a car or own a second one for something we do multiple times a year.
You don't have DC fast charging infrastructure? For really long trips, there are trains or planes, but those middle distance trips are fine to just stop and charge every couple hours. Kia/Hyundais now are doing higher voltage on big batteries, so it's like 20 minutes for 0-100% charge on a 350 mile battery. If they threw a 200 mile battery into that, it's a 10 minute charge, but in reality you are not waiting around for that 20 minutes after driving for 5 hours; you're taking a shit and eating a meal.
But the person above talked about cars with a range suitable for a commute. Do you want to stop and charge every 50 miles? I don't. And usually those cars don't have charging systems capable of fast charging (because they're designed to be used exclusively for short trips) so it's half an hour or more each stop. No thanks!
Fast charge infrastructure exists but has limitations. It is often:
It is always a break in the journey whether you want one or not. If you want to split the journey in half to swap drivers, or to stop at lunchtime, but there's no good charging there, tough!
So range is still important. To me, at least!
Valid points. Idk if it's international, but somebody on Lemmy recommended an app called PlugShare which basically is a rating app for different charging stations. You can see reviews and know what's in service. I use ABRP to plot my route, then double check the recommended stations on PlugShare, and then actually navigate with Google Maps. Maybe that or a different tool could be helpful to you.
Yeah, I do use those. And it's generally good! But I bought a car with the longest range i could abs don't regret it!
There are a couple like the Fiat 500 and Mini cooper EV that get around 150, but they also coat like $45K USD. Somehow the Chevy Bolt remains the cheapest option while still having 250 miles of range while also being one of the best EVs available.
But if you start looking at used cars it changes massively. You can get a 10 year old Nissan leaf that can still do 100 miles on a charge for like 3 grand. And early Bolts are also sub 10k.
I bought a used 2022 Bolt EUV in late February for $19k and my only gripe with it is the charging speed. It is incredibly rare for me to do longer drives, so it's not a regret per sé, but it's annoying that I didn't do research on that particular detail. While the Ioniq 6 has 800V architecture which allows charging at 240-350kW, I'm stuck at fucking 50. For those who don't know those units and just want real world figures, the difference is that charging from 20% to 80% takes like 15 minutes for theirs and like an hour for mine.
Most of my longer drives still aren't that long though, so that's just the situation where I actually charge up to 100% at home and just do a big charge at a meal and bathroom break like 3-4 hours in.
Just thought I'd make people aware of the caveat of the cheap Bolts, and how that still doesn't actually matter most of the time. I would've paid more for quicker charging on the road even though it would affect only a couple of drives per year.
Yeah that's definitely something people should be aware of, it's certainly something that was brought up in every bolt review I read. But like you said it's really not a big deal unless you are road tripping. I personally ended up getting a polestar 2 but that was mostly because it had double the power and a much better interior, but also cost about 8k more and has an abysmal service network that could collapse at any moment. Part of me wishes I just got the bolt.
Because even though the average American drives less than 40 miles a day, they will not buy something with that low of range because the average American still takes longer trips fairly frequently.
I mostly ride a motorcycle and barely drive my car. When I do the average trip is only around 10 miles. But every month or so I end up driving around 120 miles round trip. A 100 mile car would be pointless because I’ couldn’t even make that trip.
This comes up a lot, and as someone living in the US I genuinely can't understand how anyone would cap themselves to a 100 mile range. I've been all over the country, from big cities like LA and Seattle to rural places in Montana, Texas, and Florida. No matter where I've been, I've always needed a car that could drive at least 200 miles for a day trip.
Currently in southern Oregon. If I want to go with some friends into the nearest city to do fun stuff or go to the mall, its an hour and 45 minute drive at 55 miles and hour. If I had an EV with a range of 100 miles, I'd have like 10 miles of charge once I got into town? That is not enough, and then I'd have to wait for it to charge before going home. That just wouldn't work.
When I lived in Seattle, a pretty big city, I drove a lot further to visit friends because unless you're wealthy, living with 6 room mates, or a student in dedicated housing, you can't afford to actually live IN the city. Redmond, Issaquah, Snoqualmie Pass, Tacoma, are all a distance from the city proper, and often you'd end up driving around in those towns to do stuff after you made the trip. I don't want to be stressing about having enough charge on the day-to-day.
If you're buying a car, you're not going to buy a separate car just to leave the city, right?
If I was saving $200/month on gas I could afford other modes of transport for the once or twice a month I need to go farther than 100 miles. Or I'd be willing to stop and charge my car for 30 minutes mid-trip if it was saving me hundreds of dollars in gas each month.
With modern battery tech, that "waiting around for it to charge" would take 5-10 minutes. Let's assume that that 100 mile range car has a 30kWh battery (my 250 mile range car has 63ish I think). If it runs 800V architecture like Hyundai/Kia, it can charge at 350kW, but let's round down to 300 for easy math. Even if you got down to 0% as you got to the charger (which you wouldn't assume for a gas car getting to a gas pump, so that's a stretch), it'll be so fast to charge that it doesn't even make sense to walk away to buy a coffee.
30kWh/300kW=(1/10)h=6 minutes.
I rounded in unfavorable directions, which probably accounts for losses, more or less.
"Sounds expensive," you might be thinking. Nope. I've never seen it above $0.65/kWh, but again let's round for easier math and assuming bad luck. At $0.75/kWh, that 6 minute 0-100% 30kWh charge costs $22.50. Slightly more expensive than gas, but this is presumably for uncommon trips, so charging at home where your rate is probably closer to $0.15/kWh the vast majority of the time will more than offset those day trips since that refuel costs $4.50. Even if every other charge were at that high rate, that's still an average of $13.50 for a full tank. Assuming a gas car with 25mpg, that's like paying $3.38/gallon on average. Not great, but better than reality right now.
If it's more like every tenth charge is in the city at that high rate, then your average charge is $6.30, which is like paying an average of $1.58/gallon.
So it doesn't take longer to refuel this EV than a standard gas car, and it's cheaper than a standard gas car if you're refueling at home at least half the time. The only real variable here is whether there is a charging station at the optimal location for your journey, and those are popping up everywhere.
In reality, I agree with you, but for a different reason. For battery longevity, it's best to keep the state of charge at 20-80% most of the time. So I'd rather have a 200+ mile range to do my 100 mile trips. And that's what I did. I bought a used Bolt EUV with a range of about 240 miles (down from 250 when new) and I charge to about 75% for my daily 90ish mile commute, and I get home and plug in at like 30%.
I'm actually out of town with my EV right now. I charged to 100% at home the night before, drove a little over 2 hours to this hotel, a bit over an hour round trip for dinner last night, probably about 30 minutes round trip today, and I'll probably stop for a short charge on the way home tomorrow just for peace of mind. It's nowhere near as big a headache as most people make it out to be. For most people, if you need to buy a car and you have the ability to charge at home while you're sleeping, it doesn't make sense to not buy an EV. Used ones are still cheaper than they should be.
Well damn, that's a really compelling argument. I will say that I'll probably keep my gas car for most stuff long range, but when my partner and I eventually grab a second car for logistical reasons, maybe I'll look into EVs? Depending on how easy they are to work on. Honestly we were gonna seek out an old Tacoma since we are gonna need a truck for farm stuff soon. Idk, tough bid.
Thank you for taking the time to reply so thoroughly, genuinely.
I figure most families own 2 cars anyway; so if one was super cheap but had a 100mile limit; that would still sell well. Plus stopping to charge isn’t too big a deal
No problem. It's genuinely interesting to me, so I like helping curious, open-minded people to be exposed to how it really is. I had my doubts until I learned more, and now I know that a lot of us have been manipulated into keeping the status quo.
I'm not a farmer or anything, so I can't really endorse any EV to replace a farm truck. I'm not saying it can't work, just that I'm not knowledgeable enough to speak on that. I'm assuming you'll need good clearance and suspension, and that's well beyond what my little roller skate of a Bolt EUV specializes in lol. But it can't hurt to keep in the know because you'll need another car eventually anyway, even if your research points to another gas car now and today. For most people, plugging into a standard 120V outlet is enough (like 3 miles range per hour charge), but it's worth investigating whether you need to buy a level 2 charger and run a 240V charger (like 30 miles range per hour charge). Your driving habits will tell you what you need there, and it'd be a good idea to have that settled before buying just so you can charge at home from day one.
When it comes to how easy they are to work on, there's really not much of anything to work on. No oil so no oil changes, no radiator so no radiator work, no transmission so no transmission work, friction brakes don't wear nearly as much due to regen braking, there's no mixing of fuel and air, there's no compression or combustion, there are no spark plugs or gaskets or complications in translation. It's direct power from battery to motor(s) to wheels, with guilt-free torque, so maintenance is mostly just wipers, headlights, and tires. I reset my trip meter just to remind me to take it in for tire rotations, and the last time I did that, the guy at the desk couldn't be bothered to figure out how to charge me the $15-20 that costs so he was just like hey man, you're good, see you in a few months.
A lot of my reasoning for the switch was for convenience. No complicated maintenance schedule, and no going out of my way to stop somewhere to refuel (except for on road trips). Just plug in when I get home, then go drive when I need to. It's the most convenient way to own my transportation until we get real self driving or teleportation.
If you want to go further just charge it and then keep going. Not really a big deal if you're only doing that like once a year.
I drive out for a day trip with friends or to visit friends like every other week. Maybe I'm the exception, though all of my friends do the same so idk.
Also Zoe.
mini cooper electric variant is effectively what you describe. so is nissan leaf.
Then Musk got on a power trip, fired his
nanniesadvisors.Don't know why, but nazis were spraying swastikas on teslas, along with "trans rights" slogans. US is a weird place
I don't honestly think the US has the technical ability anymore. The US doesn't really make much and hasn't since the seventies. That's a long time. How much of a Ford is actually made in the US? Shoot, how much is designed in the US?
Best they could do would be buy the parts, maybe make the frame, paint it and assemble. Don't make batteries, don't make screens, or chips, or leds or much of nothing.
There won't be flying cars until Autonomous Vehicles have a perfect self driving score.
Joe Average Potata-brain can't drive as it is. Now they want to add the extra chaos of multiple tons of debris falling from the sky after minor crash bends one of the stabilizer ports out of alignment?
Car sizes will continue to increase until morale improves.
USA bans affordable EVs, no Chinese EVs even though iPhones are made in China https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/czx17361pw1o
No shit. I feel like this company has enough money they could produce a $10k Electric car that is basically sold at cost.
Tesla refuses to even develop a compact 20k car they could sell at a profit. Instead the new developments focus on wankpanzers and sports cars with party tricks.
I think it's because they know they can't compete with quality or specs at the low end. They'd much rather get customers with gimmicks and "controversial" aesthetics. Chinese cars would eat anything they could build for that price for breakfast but even legacy brands like Hyundai and VW have been able to make good EVs far cheaper than Tesla.
Well, if Hyundai, Kia, VW, Renault and others can compete on reasonably priced compact cars, Tesla should be able to do so too. They do not only produce in the US after all. If they can't that would be just an admission that their future is that of a niche highend producer. But for that, they are a bit too cheap on the inside.
Tesla doesn't want to produce cheap cars. Tesla wants to be a premium brand.
They could spin off a value brand, like the opposite of what Hyundai did with Genesis. And they don't want to do that, because that means less money. Much more effective to lobby to keep cheap Chinese cars out of the country.
But I wouldn't buy one if they did...fuck Elon.
A premium brand that cuts costs at any corner and even proudly proclaims though? Their main selling cars (model 3 and Y) are not premium cars, they are mid range cars and certainly not known for having a premium feel, rather to deliver a very good range for the price and the software stuff.
Why would any company sell anything at cost? The point of a company is to make money
Then sell it for 20k it would still be one of the cheapest on the market. That seems like a pretty braindead leap in logic. The "at cost" comparison is just to show how cheap the baseline should be.
Selling at cost allows you to undercut other companies and take over the market, then charge a premium. It's a pretty basic business strategy.
The point of society is to live on.
And I said "basically at." As in, make SOME money, just not excess money.
If we’re talking about “society” then the way forward is to get rid of cars almost entirely and have extremely robust public transport. Not make new cars.
Yes but let's say, in the interim, we make cars that are more efficient and better for the environment, and make them affordable enough that everyone can use one.
public transit will never work for 100% of people
Public transit is never going to work until people stop being allowed to make it not work.
Maybe, but you cannot expect an entire societal mindset to change overnight, and for many, it's never going to change. Society in many places can't even agree that women are equal to men, which is like, step one for any other equality mindset going down the line, for example. Because it's been engrained into culture.
Even places with better mass transit than the US like Europe or Japan still have cars. Mas transit works great in some areas and terrible in others. Which is also why its going to be impossible to make it work 100% of the time for 100% of situations.
Even before cars, we had "individual transport" with things like carts and horses etc. mass Transit isn't even an old concept.
I like the look of the Slate truck, but ai fear it is becoming vaporware.
Always was.
The idea is cool but 20k for a truck without paint and shitty capabilities is DOA.
But why pay all that money for a truck when you can get a used EV for half the price that has many luxuries like electric windows and back seats.
... Because of Modularity. If the rich don't fuck it up for us, big if, then small time after market companies will flourish selling their mods.
I can't remember the name of the principle. But my pal explained it to me. It's almost impossible for small business to compete with production of scale. So one way to survive is to work find a way to add an extra 20% of hand done work machines can't do to the product. Add a proverbial "cherry on the top" to your business. You let the mass producers do 80% of the work (Slate); Then you add your 20% custom made finish to make the final product.
I like the example of cheap drinking glasses and Podstakannik. But a more familiar example would be painting miniatures for money.
I wish the Ford lightning hadn’t gotten axed. You can get them cheap now, but good luck with parts
But new they were like 80k and you then have to drive a massive hideous truck. Why would anyone do that?
Who buys new? I don’t want to eat the depreciation just to get new and shiny
…because you use one for work and gas is expensive when your driving all across the metroplex?
Well if you compare used for used 40k is still way too much for any truck. People who need a work vehicle will buy a van. Massive pickup trucks are for man babies who would rather crush toddlers than have people question their sexuality.
You know, the “just buy a work van” is such a straw man argument. People can’t afford to own two vehicles, and they sure as shit don’t want to try driving around a work van with shitty suspension as a daily driver. Pull up to dinner in something that looks like it should say “Free Candy” on the side.
While I don’t disagree that many people drive trucks that have no reason to be driving them (looking at Dodge Ram owners with flags flying off the back of them) believe or not some people can only afford to own one vehicle and want something that works for them and is comfortable.
If I didn’t have the job I did, believe me, I wouldn’t be driving something that only gets 17 mpg. Got sent out of town and the rental place hooked me up with a Dodge Charger. Holy crap I forgot what it was like to not have to swing out to make a U-turn and not have trouble finding a parking space. Only problem is, you can’t throw a ladder and a pack out in the back of a car, and you can’t pull a 7500 lb scissor lift on a trailer when you need to.
Just because you'd be embarrassed to drive one because of your ego doesn't stop a van from being the best, safest option.
I would have loved this in 2018ish when I still thought Musk was cool and flying cars were a good idea.
This is still cool tech, I just hope to never see one flying around outside of very specific controlled situations with professional pilots.
No it’s not. It’s a fucking Rocket thruster variant. It’s 40 year old tech applied in the dumbest way imaginable.
Its a sad attempt to salvage Tesla's reputation of being cool.
They really just kind of had that one car.
Its ok to admit it's pretty fucking cool, even if it's impractical.
I'm probably gonna get an Ioniq 6 or 5 in a year or two, those are very affordable and have actual buttons and switches.
I'm still a little salty about my experience trying to test drive a used Ioniq 6. It was on the site for like $23k I think. I reserved it and then got an email saying that they'd already sold it, but they have a new one available to see for like $55k. I like my Bolt EUV a lot, but Ioniq 6 was my first choice, and I've since only discovered more reasons to be envious lol. My 50kW level 3 charging is incredibly sluggish compared to the 300ish that they can do, even if it's rare for me to have to use it at all.
I have a lot of buttons and switches, but I have to tap the screen to select and deselect HVAC vents. That's annoying while driving. There's a button for max defog, but I don't want to keep cycling that on and off. Just give me a damn knob.
USA must funnel cash to Elmo at all costs... smh.
https://arstechnica.com/cars/2026/10/europe-shows-a-better-alternative-to-big-suvs-at-the-paris-auto-show/
I was checking out used 2023 EVs recently, and some models were in the low 20 kUSD range. Accounting for inflation, that's less than I paid when I bought my used ICE car (17 kUSD) in 2014. The main detractor for me is that level 3 chargers degrade the batteries, and as a renter, I don't have a place to charge at home. But if you own a home and can charge an EV there, there's really no reason to buy an ICE car these days if you just want a commuter vehicle.
No dude, level 3 charging does not degrade the battery in any significant way
If you're willing to spend 20k+ on a car, then sure. Meanwhile, you can get a reliable and economic ICE car that you can drive 100,000+ miles for under 5k.
citation needed
Found within 1 minute of searching, so it's probably not the best deal (plus it's from a realer, which is more expensive than buying from an individual).
https://www.craigslist.org/view/d/lynnwood-2014-chevrolet-sonic-chevy-lt/WFqKwO3L8RGy6I7S4K-WKQ
My understanding is the level 3 battery degradation is overstated, and even with heavy use, the battery will stay in pretty good shape.
-an EV owner
Agreed. From what I've looked up, it's going outside of 20ish-80ish% charge frequently that's degrading the batteries quickly. Or fully charging and then leaving out in the hot sun.
I live in the US and I would love to buy an electric vespa-style scooter that can do 45 mph. They are virtually non-existent here (there is something called the Aventura-X which costs $5000). Even if I could get one, there are no places around that could service it. And it's not like I live in rural South Dakota or anything - I live in a Philly suburb.
Looks at long list of EVs that don't rhyme with Besla
The thing is used EVs are so affordable that it's basically impossible for western companies to make something cheap enough to compete. The real answer is to allow Chinese EVs to be sold in the US.
That's true until enough people wise up to the fact that a 3 year old used EV is nowhere near as worthless as a 3 year old used iPhone. That misunderstanding is what's keeping demand so low, which is why the price is so low. I shouldn't have been able to sell my 2016 RAV4 with 70k miles for $14k and buy a 2022 Bolt EUV with 50k miles for $19k earlier this year.
Chinese EVs won't be sold in the US any time soon. They are too big of a threat to American automakers, and the lust for profit growth will prevent any reasonable attempt at competing. Also, US infrastructure is so car-dependent that offshoring such a massive amount of car manufacturing would become a threat to national security. There's a big concern that by allowing Chinese EVs here, we would be handing the world to China; the uncomfortable truth is that we don't really have anything to offer to China these days. They've already won, and we're all just going through the motions of playing the final couple of rounds. They've dominated domestic infrastructure, renewable energy tech, battery tech, global soft power, etc. Next will be water purification, space exploration, and nuclear fusion. China invested in themselves and their future, and it's finally paying off.
Idk what the world looks like ten years from now in 2036, but I know that China will be leaps and bounds ahead of the US in pretty much every metric. Mostly because we've pissed away the past ten years being run by a fascist toddler, and walking back the fascist sprinting of the fascist toddler, and we'll be spending the next ten years attempting to convince former friends and allies that the fascist toddler is behind us and we won't do that again so please let's make deals again that could theoretically be nuked by another fascist toddler. Meanwhile, China just keeps innovating and sharing.
Yeah right now buying a used EV is easily the best value you can get when buying a car. And I agree that eventually people will wise up, but any time you're waiting on the American consumer to wise up, you're going to be waiting for quite a while.
I'd expect in 10 years either half of all car sales are electric or the government has gone full isolationist and banned all ev sales. Could go either way.
I hate that that's truly an uncertainty. Dipshits could sincerely celebrate freedom while banning a reasonable option, and they wouldn't see any contradiction. "We want small government but also big daddy government needs to do prohibition for the things I don't want."
The demo had to be AI slop.
It's supposedly not, but even then, why should we give a shit about this stupid demo? They basically dressed a SpaceX rocket up like a car. That's it.
None of what is shown here is ever, and yes, I absolutely mean EVER, going to make it into a production car. Why? I can boil it down to 3 reasons.
It would be unsafe as shit for any car to have the capability of doing any of this. I'm sure everyone here can agree that most drivers are fucking stupid and are a danger to everyone around them. Now give them the ability to drive like they're in fucking GTA.
It's expensive as shit.
Most importantly. It is fucking impractical and stupid. Not only is most of the space in the car wasted on rocket parts. How much energy does it take to do something like this? How much energy is stored in a Tesla battery? Anything short of a small nuclear reactor inside the car, would make the ability to do this, at best, impractical. It's just so unfathomably retarded to want a car that can do this, because it shows a basic lack of understanding of the laws of physics.
This is a media stunt, made by the biggest egotistical piece of shit in history, nothing more.
Some points:
Falling is not the same as flying
The car, by the looks of it, is probably just a very lightweight body with some thrusters and gyroscopes. Meaning, it's not a full car like we're used to, but rather just a plastic replica made specifically for this demo. Add some thrusters, make sure it looks ok. There you go.
Do we trust the company that pretended to have fully autonomous robots that were clearly being piloted backstage? The company that has lied about 'self-driving technology' for decades, which has already killed dozens of people because it's complete dogshit at what it does.
I don't feel inclined to believe them here either lol
I was fully convinced this was the case but I think they might have actually done it for some reason. There's no fucking way that you'll be able to buy a car that does what they did in the demo. I think it's safe to assume the car that flew doesn't have a full sized battery and was probably missing some of the other heavier components. It's really fucking stupid but I think that car actually did all that crap.
X.I.T.T. (you know the pronunciation)
Nazi ?
Surprisingly, yes! English is a weird language!
"Shite industries two thousand" was my original thought, but I see where you are coming from.
Alas we are doomed. There was the Nissan leaf 15 years ago but they canceled it because no one bought them
That's Chinas job
We need to make it ourselves
Good because ![email protected]
so we're just walking to and from work for 16 hours a day now?
No, you walk 10 minutes to the bus stop, then wait 20 minutes for the bus to come, then an hour for it to go around to the other stops and get to your destination, then work 8 hours, then oops, buses don't run as much after 5, so now you wait 50 minutes for the bus because it comes hourly and you get off at 5, then ride another 30 minutes, then walk back in 15 (because you are slower and tired.)
Or drive your car each way 15 minutes.
It's about sending a message.
You could also tell ![email protected] to just go out to eat big mac because it's faster. Go on. Do it.
my work is an hour away, used to be two hours one way.
I live in a rural area that doesn't have public transit infrastructure. the closest bus stop is an hour away.
did you actually try to solve the problem or are you just parroting someone else's opinion?
I was saying that even being close to work, mass transit is a huge time investment.
What's annoying is people hyping up these "cheap" Slate trucks because they don't realize they don't even paint the fucking things so you're replacing a $3k wrap every three years and calling yourself frugal and environment friendly.
ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT HOW MUCH YOU DON'T LIKE SLATE EVs?! 😬
I am so excited for the Slate trucks. I wish I had the $300 for the preorder down payment oof. My uncle says that the Slate SUV would sell better because most people needing cars just go back and forth from work or the grocery story. 30-60 miles tops. The Slate says it has a 200 mile range so 160 miles should be a safe bet.
I wish Slate would pay me to advertise for Slate but here I am doing it for free like a chump. Free labor is the cornerstone of the american market though.
I am weary that a big investor for Slate is the gold hording dragon known has jeff bazos. But we'll see what happens.
P.S Yeah Europeans, we drive 50-100km one way to work, five days a week. But it's worth the FREEDOM. 🔫 🦅 🔫 Do ya'll even have a gun rack in y'ur truck? I feel bad for ya'll. What are y'uh gunna do when the Technomacers from Alpha Centuri V team up with the Underground Lizard People and invade us? How are ya'll gunna protect y'urselves? With a bright torch and a stern talking too? 🤨
The wraps are dirt cheap. They start at $500 for a basic color.
And you don’t have to do anything at all to them. You could leave them with the base coat. They’re a composite panel so it wont rust or degrade.
They’re one I’ve priced out is a gloss purple wrap and that’s $670.
The whole point of the slate is getting as bare bones as possible and being able to do it all yourself. That’s the selling point.
You don't have to wrap it if you don't want to
Yes, you do, because wraps are the default "paint"
The default body they ship if you don't pick up a wrap will degrade over time and cost you even more if you like that "ugly gray plastic" look.
No you do not have to buy a wrap. That is literally false.
Well like, literally everything degrades with time. The sun is a giant microwave after all.
Furthermore, are we under the same understanding that Automotive Paint is like some real expensive shit since the paint has to survival literally every kind of environment in the world?
There's a really cool "How It's Made" episode on it. Though now that I think of it maybe it was propaganda to normalize expensive paint costs... 🤔
On their website I didn't see an option to get it without a wrap
Ah ok it looks like you're right. I thought I'd seen a video where they said they designed the panels to be able to withstand the elements. Full wraps start at $500 though.