As a Japanese person, my first reaction was, "That sounds exhausting." I'm genuinely curious, though. Is this something most Americans enjoy, or is it one of those social expectations that not everyone is actually comfortable with?
I think that Kevin and Tony probably don't even think about this, they lived their entire live that way. They don't know any better.
Here in Germany, if you want to move a sofa, you have three options:
Rent a transporter (no one here has a truck), park it illegally in front of the house while onloading the sofa, transport the sofa, park the car again illegally while unloading it. If the police catches you or a neighbor files a complain, you may have to pay a fee.
File a form so that someone puts up traffic signs for that day that no one except you may park in front of the two houses. Costs around 90 € and takes 3 weeks. Rent car, proceed as usual. Someone will see that you park in a "no parking" zone and does not know that you requested that zone, so he will file a report. Therefore, later, fill some more forms to battle that claim.
Do 1) at night where no one sees you or cares.
(This is of course highly exaggerated. Parking is not such a problem in every city.)
It's one of those social expectations not everyone is comfortable with. I think it comes from a good place though. It's essentially community sourced mutual aid. For lack of, you know, easy access to aid from society as a whole.
I have a truck. I know at least two other people with trucks. Once the pizza is offered, and maybe some beers if it's a big job, we're there. It's the truck code.
My cousin has become Kevin. She got a big old van for her 2 kids. It has split duty now. Although she doesn't do any of the moving and the price is a full tank of gas.
I am also the guy with the truck. But I do not drive 5-speed manual very well. So the truck lives at the house of my friend who is good at driving manual. He's kind of my Tony, I guess. The truck is indeed a community resource of anyone we are decent friends with.
But see, it's not fair if people just get what they need! You need to make sure people are paying for it!
We can make it part of the system that each person gets help according to their needs, but each person also gives help according to their abilities. Yes yes. This is now definitely capitalism because it's transactions.
It's not really capitalism without the involvement of capital, is it? It's more akin to a trade-and-barter-economy/society, where everyone involved should have a high level of faith in others
Capitalism has nothing to do with transactions. Capitalism would be if the truck was owed by Benny, who would not show up, not fill it up with gas, not repair it, but would still receive half of pizza and 2/3 of beer.
The crazy part is it doesn't matter who you voted for, everyone on both sides would generally love to help their neighbor and would offer a hand. It's just when people get involved in the macro sense that they get filled with hate and anger. Makes me sad. Let's just all move couches.
Conservatives are often nice to people they know. The in-group. The problem is when it's a scary other. So they'll let Jose couch surf for a week while he sorts out his housing situation, because he's a good guy down on his luck, but they'll rage against Those People getting anything.
That's my understanding too. It's like empathy just ends at one's own line of sight. If I can't see it or touch it, there may be something wrong with it. It's infuriating.
Can we do that without the latent ableism that comes along with it, like the idea that if you can't help people move couches then you don't deserve anyone else's help either?
This especially effects people with invisible disabilities, who are already viewed as lazy, but who also might be the most helpless when it comes to moving their own furniture.
I think it's kind of ablist to assume a disabled person has nothing of value to offer, like if they can't move a couch then they are excluded. "Moving a couch" could be anything, it could be filing taxes or cooking a meal. Disabled people are good at stuff too. I think it's really weird for you to make this assumption.
Honestly it's both. Plenty of people with disabilities have plenty to offer. A lot actually don't though, and they still deserve that helping hand.
A family aquatintance has some mental and physical disabilities. They're just not going to be able to help in any way that isn't superficial. And that's okay. Their worth isn't defined by their utility.
Attaching how worthwhile it is to help someone to their ability to provide a service inherently says the person who can't isn't worthy of help.
We should be good to people because it's the right thing to do, not out of the expectation of a future repayment. More pragmatically, we should help based on the assumption that the other person would, and that if everyone acted like that the world would be better.
I think the other person read a bit much into it, but their base point isn't wrong.
My partner has disabilities and so they do not help lift the sofa. But they are a lot better at driving a manual truck than I am, so with a few pillows and adaptations in the driver's cab that is what they do when someone needs a sofa moved. Some disabilities prevent you from driving the truck too, but it's important as a group of sofa movers to make sure that everyone has something they can fulfill, even if that means planning the move. That can be incredibly helpful.
You better come with some jokes then. When I'm moving some bulky furniture upstairs and really not having a good time, sometimes a well-timed joke is exactly what we need to drop it and injure ourselves.
Okay, while you're jerking off the dicks driving big-ass little-dick trucks, I guess I'll try being nicer to those assholes while they honk their horns at pedestrians, double-park or park on crosswalks, and all that other shit that they do and everyone knows they do because they're doing it in big-ass trucks and it's not subtle.
Especially the ones rolling coal and flying trump flags. Should I try to be less of a dick to them to? I don't want to be included in whatever they've got going on. I certainly would never ask one to help move furniture. Their trucks are only for show anyway...
That’s not really socialism, given that it is not universally distributed but depends on one’s social connections. A socialist system would have impersonal mechanisms for catching those who fall through the cracks due to not knowing enough people to ask for and repay favours. (And those people do exist: “everyone knows a guy with a truck” except perhaps for a socially isolated shut-in or someone who does not speak the language, or someone who does not fit in with the community in their truck catchment radius.)
Yeah, in this case "everyone" literally just means "everyone who's visible within my social radius."
It completely erases everyone else, like the types of people you mentioned. It's very in-group focused, and bears uncanny parallels to the fascist idea that outsiders don't matter.
With that beautiful writing style? This prose would be lost on film.
Honestly, I thought this was an excerpt from some modern classic usamerican novel. I was fully expecting to find this comment section full of references and people talking about the book.
I was always the guy with the truck. For a couple years I was the guy with the minivan with no back seats in lieu of a truck, but now I'm back to being the guy with the truck amongst my circles. I didn't know how much I liked being that guy until I wasn't.
I am the guy with a ute (Australian for truck) but I dont come with. You can borrow it for as long as you need, it comes with a full tank and it comes back with one.
Its a bit of a heap but it starts every time and runs all day. I cant justify the yearly expense to keep it around for the dozen or so times a year I need it. But my friends and neighbours get great value out of it so I do.
My neighbor is the guy with the truck. He feels the same way you do, says he just can't imagine not being available to help folks out. He's helped me out. I help him out (not with a truck, of course). He has a truck because he is big, it's comfortable, and because he can help people move shit or get mulch or whatever. He lives for it.
The American lower-working class economy is predominantly favor and goodwill-based, yes. Pain in the ass sometimes but also more fun imo. Community is important to keep alive.
Not just American. It's poor people's economy everywhere. American working class has more in common with working class in every other nation than American wealth class. The real division in the world is class division, everything else is distraction.
This exactly. There's an inversion when having money is more convenient than having contacts and doing small favors, and that inversion turns people into lonely cunts.
Incredibly wealthy people also run their society based on favors and unspoken fees. The difference is, one of them could, under unusual but not impossible circumstances, help a friend and a guy move a fridge and share a beer. But nobody who's not part of the incredible-wealth society can participate in its favors. And we all pay the fees.
I don't see what about this that makes it a "working-class" thing? I thought it was common practice to help each other out in exchange for pizzas and beer in any part of society where people have friends? I see it primarily as an excuse to hang out while doing something together.
Whenever you can afford to pay to have a problem of yours solved, it's often the most convenient way of solving it.
Anyone who makes their living by working, either for salary or hourly rate, is working class. Let's just be on the same page about that.
A working class person basically survives by converting their time and energy to cash. So paying cash is also paying with your labour, indirectly and often inefficiently. It's always a matter of "is it worth it"? Hiring movers for moving your entire home may be worth it, just one piece of furniture often isn't.
A wealth-class person gets their income from what they own. Its "passive" from their point of view, the money just appears as profit or capital gains or whatever. It's still a limited resource, but often way more available. Any kind of favours you do or ask for at this point is purely for fun/social purposes since hiring someone to move that sofa, or even just buying and having a new one delivered is way more convenient and time-efficient, since your money is not literally your time.
Anyone who makes their living by working, either for salary or hourly rate, is working class. Let’s just be on the same page about that.
Aha! That's where you got me! I was thinking "working class" in the more classical sense, referring to typical lower-paying jobs. I work for a living, but I'm definitely closer to what is typically considered "middle-class" in the sense that I make enough money that I feel well-off, but not enough that I could buy a new sofa just because moving the old one is too much hassle.
Obligatory "Fuck the wealth-class". "Passive income through ownership" is a convoluted way of saying "parasitic".
Congratulations, you're part of the working class. Your wealth comes from work you do with head and hand. The epstein class want you to think of yourself as middle class, so you'll feel threatened by the working class. There is no middle class. They take, and we pay. That's what class is.
I agree with pretty much everything you're saying here, I still want to comment on
Middle class does not exist
I do think it's a reasonable term to separate those that actually make a decent salary, are self-employed, own their own company (at which they work) together with others, etc. from the more clearly exploited workers that have far too few rights and are not compensated fairly.
I have no problem with selling my labour for money as long as I'm fairly compensated for it. Historically, the working class has not been.
Even if life is good for you at your income level, you're still getting scammed to a (much smaller) extent. And the Epstein class use the money they scam off you, to control society. Money has this mathematical effect where it wants to accumulate in one place. It's like a kind of economic gravity. Any inequality will magnify itself over time if it isn't carefully controlled by government.
Social democrats think good enough regulation can preserve that very-slightly-inequal system forever. But I say that kind of setup is inherently unstable. Capitalism will always trend towards inequality over time. Instead of trying to control money and make it go against its nature, we should abolish money. A gift economy would be better.
I have a friend who's done very well with the AI boom, he works for some startup, has for the past six or seven years. He moved into an apartment like 10 years ago, he was working for a pharma company, just building their servers I'll say, because I don't know what the fuck he does. When he moved into the apartment, he hit me up, I rounded up another friend or two, we took care of it.
He bought (had built) a new home about six or seven months ago. He did not call me to help him move. He's moved beyond that, because to him, he doesn't want to be involved. You don't call someone to help you move and then not take part. For him, it's a no-brainer to just pay to have it done. And that's fine, and I just kinda wanted to give an example of this divide.
This is a wild concept for other cultures. Like, in Germany people will help you move. Your friends that is. Maybe a coworker or neighbour - if you even know any neighbour at all. That is all but a given here as well. But some random guy? Nah...
Oh and you absolutely have to rent a truck. I don't know a single truck person. There is no such thing as having a truck, unless you nees it for business. Long story short: I just paid a company over >2k to move just one town over
This can absolutely also happen in a place like Germany. Yes, no one really has a truck for personal use (or rather a box truck), but you know a guy who knows a guy that has a truck for his business and doesn't need it on the weekend, et voila. Maybe it's not that extreme, but especially for 'poorer' working class people, helping out is still essential even in Germany.
That was the ancient economy, before money even existed. You gave stuff to people. Bread, pots, meat, build a cabin. They gave stuff back that you needed, roughtly about the same value, but never exactly the value. Everybody has to be a little in debt to anyone else. If you gave back exactly what it's worth, it means you don't want to deal with that person anymore.
In central Europe it's just like "I know a guy with a trailer" or a hitch and you rent a trailer. Or as a last resort or maybe an urban thing, you hire a moving truck and still call upon your friends to load and unload and pay in beer and pizza/döner.
Americans are a very friendly people, all things considered. The whole smiling at everyone you see, helping out strangers for fun thing is not universal. Thus, this post.
My partner is from America, and visited Australia for two weeks to see Me. We spent two weeks going on dates together, visiting cool places like the museum, the zoo, a local pirate bar, an escape room. My partner says Australians are much friendlier than Americans and we smile more.
I could believe it. It's not that it's unique to America, or anything. But like I've read stories about Dutch people for instance thinking Americans on public transportation were simple, due to all the smiling and the like.
Most of us are just regular, friendly people who are glad to help out if needed. There are pockets of shit people who thrive on hate, but that's true for any country.
That's the thing, the most vocal tend to be the worst type of people. Online that gives the impression that a lot of people are bad when in reality I think most people want to be good people.
As an american, I think it's toxic positivity because it ignores all the invisible social rejects who live on the margins of society and don't have the type of community support that makes this possible.
The OOP happened to luck out and knew some nice people and also happened to be accepted by those people as someone who's worth helping.
The same Kevin might be a completely different person when he drives through a city and sees a homeless person struggling to move a tent with all his possessions...
It's amazing how many different species of Knowaguy there are. I recently was introduced to a friend's "Bridge Guy" - a dealer in surplus bridges who will cut you a suspiciously good deal if you seem cool. Not the most immediately useful, but like... Could be damned handy to have in my back pocket should the right circumstances arise.
Societies that run on neighbours, friends, acquaintances, and that guy over there helping each other out in exchange for sharing pizza and beer afterwards are wholesome societies.
I think what you originally said makes sense in the strictest sense. Technically, not favors. The payment was pizza.
In Frieren, the main hero would always charge a "fee" even to the poorest people who needed help. Often at the cost of totally worthless items because "now they don't owe me". The transaction is complete, no furthur obligation.
Even "token" fees are better than ambiguous favors imo. Thats where I usually charge the friend price of a meal for most of my services.
And societies ran on capital with different tiers of classes based solely on the situation a person is BORN into is certainly the more just and appropriate way to organize a society? It definitely couldn’t be one based on mutualism and equity, no sir.
My friend is a ring leader for these types of guys. He knows like 15 guys with a truck and at least another 30 with arms. He’s able to get a lot of projects done around the neighborhood.
Can we not romanticize american truck culture? Those people's heads are already swollen enough without telling them everyone around them relies on their condescension to help.
Sure, there might be a few decent people out there who have trucks, but they're not the majority of truck owners. They're also more likely to help their friends and family, maybe a friend of a friend, but hardly a stranger.
And if you're viewed as an outsider or unliked? Forget it, you're SOL.
Also, this expectation that everyone "just knows", without being told, is unrealistic. It is real, in that people do expect that. And perhaps most normies do "just know." But the social rejects, the neurodivergents, the new neighbors who just moved to this state, etc.? Life is made far more challenging to these people as a direct result of that expectation that everyone should "just know" without being told.
When I moved states, we introduced ourselves to the neighbor and they offered to mow our lawn cause we didn’t have a mower yet. Gave em a bottle of wine, chill neighbors all the way until they moved out.
Most people are decent, even more than the 80/20 rule.
You're really only acknowledging that you're part of an in-group that can move to a new neighborhood and be immediately accepted. Not everyone enjoys that privilege, and you pretending that your experience disproves that only highlights the erasure.
It doesn’t disprove what you’re saying. I’m saying that coming into a shitpost community where the vibe is supposed to be fun and communicating negatively might be a symptom of not being able to communicate positively irl.
It can be hard and I’m sorry if it is for you, but what do you expect from people? Good vibes are contagious
"Good vibes" and toxic positivity are tools of fascism. I can't talk about climate change around people cause they'd think I'm being a debby-downer.
Same thing with wealth disparity, poverty, starvation, disability, disease, conflict, displacements, etc. Can't talk about these issues, serious problems in the world, cause everyone's like "dude, good vibes only." Can't talk about corruption and fascism itself because people don't want that "negativity."
Maybe I'm cynical, but it's not without good reason. Maybe if the world held space for more cynicism then we could actually start working on some of the problems we face. But no. Can't have that. Good vibes, dude.
If I need to keep my mouth shut about all the bad things going on in the world in order to be accepted by others, then I'd honestly rather be an outcast...
You don't have to keep your mouth shut about the bad things going on in the world to be nice to people.
The same way an ongoing climate collapse, the rise of real fascism in america (not just 'being friendly' to people as you say) multiple wars and multiple capital G genocides does not mean you've got to be shitty to everyone around you just because they're not perfectly aligned with the way you speak.
Maybe try to take a minute and instead of reading everything in bad faith by instantly thinking the worst of someone who you know nothing about based purely on an internet comment, use the phrase "Dont make perfect the enemy of good."
If you want to stay a self imposed outast, that's fine too. But remember nobody is making it out alive if everyone tries to make it alone.
Yeah fuck Americans! I hate all of them tbh, even the supposed “good” ones. Every single one is a pig and deserves to die. They should really learn to be more tolerant and not to hate people based on one characteristic that they think tells me everything they need to know about a person
Dude, I'm an american myself, and having grown up surrounded by americans I think I can say that it's not always sunshine and rainbows like it's depicted in the post.
The people around me who drive trucks are the biggest assholes for miles. Rolling coal, denying climate change, flying trump flags, shining high beams in your rearview mirror. Pretending this isn't a real pattern and a serious issue isn't going to get you anywhere.
Sure, there are exceptions. Some people who drive trucks are nice people. They usually drive smaller, older, more beat-up and well-used trucks. But then again, lots of assholes drive those too. As for the big, shiny new trucks that never leave the pavement, there's a reason people say they're compensating for something. They're more likely to run over a cyclist than they are to help you move a couch.
Thing is, like you say, they're willing to help a friend of a friend, but frankly the bar for a friend is pretty low for a lot of people. As someone who's also neurodivergent and has had approximately three friends on average for most of my life, but recently moved to America and so had a full reset, I've been reminded that the majority of people like to think they're good people, even if they have questionable beliefs or cut you off in traffic or whatever, and thay extends to helping out people that they know.
Given I've been in the country a month, have autism, and live out of the city, I'm probably as in the group you describe as you can get, but I'm still fairly confident if I needed a neighbor to take me to hospital, or someone to help me move a couch, or whatever else, I could find them even through work or the neighborhood pretty quickly, as it just takes one connection to flip a switch in people's brains from "fuck that guy" to "they're in my tribe, I'll help them"
as it just takes one connection to flip a switch in people's brains from "fuck that guy" to "they're in my tribe, I'll help them
That's the thing, not everybody has that connection, and the people who lack it tend to be invisible in these kinds of situations, and there's always a lot of overt hostility directed towards those people whenever they point out that they don't have this thing that everyone else seems to be pretending that everyone has, which is community support.
It's great that you feel like you connect and have the support you need, but that doesn't justify the erasure of people who don't have that.
Yeah, I completely agree, but it also doesn't mean that the people who don't have that connection to you suddenly aren't willing to help their community, it just means that you have trouble integrating into communities, which is very valid and I can completely relate and understand, as that's kind of how being neurodivergent works.
As much as it sucks to hear, it's absolutely an "it's not them, it's you" situation, and I've been in the same position, and still do get in the same position, where I'm feeling out of place, unsure what to do and unwelcome, and very sensitive to confirmations of that, which is part of at least my experience of being autistic, but I've learnt that a lot of the times you don't actually have to pick up on social cues or whatever to make connections, as most people aren't even that invested anyway, and to most people talking to someone, even if they're weird, is better than talking to nobody. You may say "but everyone's already got friends they're always with" but even that's just an autistic lens over it, as you're just noticing when other people are having conversations but not you. And it doesn't have to be everyone. Like you said yourself, being a friend of a friend goes a long way, so if you just have a few connections with people who are friendlier or more similar to you, then that just gets you into circles. You won't exactly be neurotypical all of a sudden, but it definitely helps with feeling less different or isolated.
I do have trouble integrating into communities, that's the whole point. That people like me experience erasure. Even now, as I point out that people like me exist, most replies I'm getting have been combative in trying to double down on that erasure.
Like, can we not just acknowledge that there are people who slip through the cracks of society and as a result face challenges that most people never even have to think about or consider? Things that most people view as so easy and simple, that suddenly aren't so easy and simple when you have no friends or community.
But no, people don't like that reminder, so they're hostile towards it, which only reinforces the marginalization and erasure of people like me...
I think it's harsh on to call it erasure, but completely understand that in effect it's the same thing, because to me it seems people are hostile because what you're saying doesn't match their lived experiences, and so they're saying "that's not how it is" because they believe that you're pre-judging situations based on how you think people will react to neurodivergent people, when that's not the case at all. I like to think it comes from a place of good intentions, but yeah in reality it's no different to saying "just cheer up" to a depressed person, when it's really not that easy or how it works. The most important thing is that as irritating as it is, harboring resentment over this kind of thing helps nobody, and the best thing you can do is accept that they're trying (badly) to help, and that they just don't fully understand what the issue is.
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As a Japanese person, my first reaction was, "That sounds exhausting." I'm genuinely curious, though. Is this something most Americans enjoy, or is it one of those social expectations that not everyone is actually comfortable with?
I think that Kevin and Tony probably don't even think about this, they lived their entire live that way. They don't know any better.
Here in Germany, if you want to move a sofa, you have three options:
Rent a transporter (no one here has a truck), park it illegally in front of the house while onloading the sofa, transport the sofa, park the car again illegally while unloading it. If the police catches you or a neighbor files a complain, you may have to pay a fee.
File a form so that someone puts up traffic signs for that day that no one except you may park in front of the two houses. Costs around 90 € and takes 3 weeks. Rent car, proceed as usual. Someone will see that you park in a "no parking" zone and does not know that you requested that zone, so he will file a report. Therefore, later, fill some more forms to battle that claim.
Do 1) at night where no one sees you or cares.
(This is of course highly exaggerated. Parking is not such a problem in every city.)
It's one of those social expectations not everyone is comfortable with. I think it comes from a good place though. It's essentially community sourced mutual aid. For lack of, you know, easy access to aid from society as a whole.
Someone just invented the concept of community
I live in the other part of America where you just hire someone.
When I talk about hiring someone, many people in other America nearly gasp.
I have a truck. I know at least two other people with trucks. Once the pizza is offered, and maybe some beers if it's a big job, we're there. It's the truck code.
This is anarchy in the usa
This is the most American thing I have read in my life. I have lived for more than half a century, some of it in several different US states.
Seriously, if anyone asks what the US is like, show them this post. It’s perfect.
Is this that communism/neighborhood community thing everybody keeps talking about?
Yeah, I was Tony last week. But instead of pizza I was paid in beer. Good deal, would do again
I fix people's computers in exchange for food.
Printers, I execute for free.
Oh shit. Oh no.
Im that guy who fixes small engines and computers.
My condolences
My cousin has become Kevin. She got a big old van for her 2 kids. It has split duty now. Although she doesn't do any of the moving and the price is a full tank of gas.
At today's gas prices you could get professional movers and still buy yourself a pizza afterwards :(
Oh, she rarely lets it get below half. She's not trying to fleece us.
I fucking love these.
My favorite is the Waffle House: https://wandering-nobunaga.com/stories/a-waffle-house-at-three-in
There is more?! Thank you for linking this!
I am the guy with the truck.
The truck is proof that Americans can and will accept socialism.
It's brocialism.
I am also the guy with the truck. But I do not drive 5-speed manual very well. So the truck lives at the house of my friend who is good at driving manual. He's kind of my Tony, I guess. The truck is indeed a community resource of anyone we are decent friends with.
A.k.a. community
"What if we had a system where people could get the assistance they need. We could call it... Communityism.
But see, it's not fair if people just get what they need! You need to make sure people are paying for it!
We can make it part of the system that each person gets help according to their needs, but each person also gives help according to their abilities. Yes yes. This is now definitely capitalism because it's transactions.
It's not really capitalism without the involvement of capital, is it? It's more akin to a trade-and-barter-economy/society, where everyone involved should have a high level of faith in others
I'm pretty sure they were referring to From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs which most definitely is not capitalism lol, it's a joke
Capitalism has nothing to do with transactions. Capitalism would be if the truck was owed by Benny, who would not show up, not fill it up with gas, not repair it, but would still receive half of pizza and 2/3 of beer.
I'm pretty sure they were referring to From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs which most definitely is not capitalism lol, it's a joke
The crazy part is it doesn't matter who you voted for, everyone on both sides would generally love to help their neighbor and would offer a hand. It's just when people get involved in the macro sense that they get filled with hate and anger. Makes me sad. Let's just all move couches.
Conservatives are often nice to people they know. The in-group. The problem is when it's a scary other. So they'll let Jose couch surf for a week while he sorts out his housing situation, because he's a good guy down on his luck, but they'll rage against Those People getting anything.
Because they are chudservatives , they are only nice to people they know and like
They are hateful to people they don’t know and don’t like, people who don’t have the same opinions, and people who don’t hold the same beliefs
That's my understanding too. It's like empathy just ends at one's own line of sight. If I can't see it or touch it, there may be something wrong with it. It's infuriating.
Can we do that without the latent ableism that comes along with it, like the idea that if you can't help people move couches then you don't deserve anyone else's help either?
This especially effects people with invisible disabilities, who are already viewed as lazy, but who also might be the most helpless when it comes to moving their own furniture.
I think it's kind of ablist to assume a disabled person has nothing of value to offer, like if they can't move a couch then they are excluded. "Moving a couch" could be anything, it could be filing taxes or cooking a meal. Disabled people are good at stuff too. I think it's really weird for you to make this assumption.
Honestly it's both. Plenty of people with disabilities have plenty to offer. A lot actually don't though, and they still deserve that helping hand.
A family aquatintance has some mental and physical disabilities. They're just not going to be able to help in any way that isn't superficial. And that's okay. Their worth isn't defined by their utility.
Attaching how worthwhile it is to help someone to their ability to provide a service inherently says the person who can't isn't worthy of help.
We should be good to people because it's the right thing to do, not out of the expectation of a future repayment. More pragmatically, we should help based on the assumption that the other person would, and that if everyone acted like that the world would be better.
I think the other person read a bit much into it, but their base point isn't wrong.
What I think is ableist is that you would try to pretend that disabled people don't get excluded due to society devaluing the things they can offer.
It's also ableist for you to suggest that a disabled person should be expected to file someone else's taxes if they need help moving furniture.
You just gave a master class in missing the point.
The same way it isn't about the couch, it isn't about the taxes
To each according to their means, to each according to their needs was
Or in brocialism terms "Autism be damned my boy can work a grill"
Every metaphor breaks down if you read it at face value
My partner has disabilities and so they do not help lift the sofa. But they are a lot better at driving a manual truck than I am, so with a few pillows and adaptations in the driver's cab that is what they do when someone needs a sofa moved. Some disabilities prevent you from driving the truck too, but it's important as a group of sofa movers to make sure that everyone has something they can fulfill, even if that means planning the move. That can be incredibly helpful.
Anecdotes and exceptions don't justify the erasure of marginalia.
Like, why don't all blind people just become famous musicians so that they can be rich? Ray Charles did it.
No one in their right mind would think that means blind people don't require assistance/accomodations.
Your partner has disabilities but can drive a stick shift? Great. I guess the rest of us disabled people just need to bootstrap a little harder?
You better come with some jokes then. When I'm moving some bulky furniture upstairs and really not having a good time, sometimes a well-timed joke is exactly what we need to drop it and injure ourselves.
Was this supposed to be an attempt at a joke?
If you want to be included by people, try to be less of a dick.
This isn't me talking about the wider disabled community, of which I am part of, when I say this btw, this is me talking to you.
Okay, while you're jerking off the dicks driving big-ass little-dick trucks, I guess I'll try being nicer to those assholes while they honk their horns at pedestrians, double-park or park on crosswalks, and all that other shit that they do and everyone knows they do because they're doing it in big-ass trucks and it's not subtle.
Especially the ones rolling coal and flying trump flags. Should I try to be less of a dick to them to? I don't want to be included in whatever they've got going on. I certainly would never ask one to help move furniture. Their trucks are only for show anyway...
Are you in a lot of pain or in withdrawel or something? I'm struggling to understand where all this self victimising vitriol is coming from otherwise.
Yes, being disabled sucks, yes most people also suck, and everything is also fucking awful everywhere most of the time, and that sucks too.
But this is a comment section under a lighthearted post about moving furniture, so there's obviously something else going on that has you so upset.
[Deleted duplicate]
We do socialism all the time.
Neighbors bring each other gifts. Friends feed one another. Someone is struggling and we give them what they need, no questions asked.
Technically, that's no socialism though, because it's not government enforced.
That’s not really socialism, given that it is not universally distributed but depends on one’s social connections. A socialist system would have impersonal mechanisms for catching those who fall through the cracks due to not knowing enough people to ask for and repay favours. (And those people do exist: “everyone knows a guy with a truck” except perhaps for a socially isolated shut-in or someone who does not speak the language, or someone who does not fit in with the community in their truck catchment radius.)
Yeah, in this case "everyone" literally just means "everyone who's visible within my social radius."
It completely erases everyone else, like the types of people you mentioned. It's very in-group focused, and bears uncanny parallels to the fascist idea that outsiders don't matter.
Can confirm. Until I threw my back in my forties, I was Tony.
I threw my back helping someone move an exercise machine. For someone else.
A pizza is the price. Two toppings is typical, or the everything special.
For a while I was also the guy with the cordless drill you could borrow.
Non-toxic Masculinity
Except women also have those connections.
The price may be different, like a baby blanket for their neice.
Absolutely
Two decades later, I still regret the temporary back injury a friend sustained helping me to load my heavy desk into a truck I rented.
This is the best human interaction I've read about in a long time. Maybe ever.
I feel like this premise could make an entertaining movie if you figured out the 3 act structure
With that beautiful writing style? This prose would be lost on film.
Honestly, I thought this was an excerpt from some modern classic usamerican novel. I was fully expecting to find this comment section full of references and people talking about the book.
I can see a narration style like this working for a comedy film. Or maybe just a 5 minute skit. Maybe throw in some Wes Anderson visual gags
This must be downvoted because it is absolutely not a shitpost.
I wish there was a community for it, like cool bro shit.
Or Maybe wholesome memes?
Yeah, wholesome would be a good fit
I was always the guy with the truck. For a couple years I was the guy with the minivan with no back seats in lieu of a truck, but now I'm back to being the guy with the truck amongst my circles. I didn't know how much I liked being that guy until I wasn't.
I am the guy with a ute (Australian for truck) but I dont come with. You can borrow it for as long as you need, it comes with a full tank and it comes back with one.
Its a bit of a heap but it starts every time and runs all day. I cant justify the yearly expense to keep it around for the dozen or so times a year I need it. But my friends and neighbours get great value out of it so I do.
My neighbor is the guy with the truck. He feels the same way you do, says he just can't imagine not being available to help folks out. He's helped me out. I help him out (not with a truck, of course). He has a truck because he is big, it's comfortable, and because he can help people move shit or get mulch or whatever. He lives for it.
I miss work for trade...
You just took care of a guy and when the time came, he took care of you.
"Today you... Tomorrow me..."
I mean, thats just how it still is in my village. It does not seem to be a particularly endangered way of living and rather the norm in rural areas.
This is the way
Dude this gold :))
Laughed quite a bit. This guy should be a writer he has a great way with words and stories. Reminded me of a Japanese Chuck Palahnuick
The American lower-working class economy is predominantly favor and goodwill-based, yes. Pain in the ass sometimes but also more fun imo. Community is important to keep alive.
Also strongly depends on the community and your perceived level of acceptance within the community.
Anyone who's ever been viewed as an outsider knows that it is not this simple unless you happen to fit in.
Not just American. It's poor people's economy everywhere. American working class has more in common with working class in every other nation than American wealth class. The real division in the world is class division, everything else is distraction.
This exactly. There's an inversion when having money is more convenient than having contacts and doing small favors, and that inversion turns people into lonely cunts.
Incredibly wealthy people also run their society based on favors and unspoken fees. The difference is, one of them could, under unusual but not impossible circumstances, help a friend and a guy move a fridge and share a beer. But nobody who's not part of the incredible-wealth society can participate in its favors. And we all pay the fees.
I don't see what about this that makes it a "working-class" thing? I thought it was common practice to help each other out in exchange for pizzas and beer in any part of society where people have friends? I see it primarily as an excuse to hang out while doing something together.
Whenever you can afford to pay to have a problem of yours solved, it's often the most convenient way of solving it.
Anyone who makes their living by working, either for salary or hourly rate, is working class. Let's just be on the same page about that.
A working class person basically survives by converting their time and energy to cash. So paying cash is also paying with your labour, indirectly and often inefficiently. It's always a matter of "is it worth it"? Hiring movers for moving your entire home may be worth it, just one piece of furniture often isn't.
A wealth-class person gets their income from what they own. Its "passive" from their point of view, the money just appears as profit or capital gains or whatever. It's still a limited resource, but often way more available. Any kind of favours you do or ask for at this point is purely for fun/social purposes since hiring someone to move that sofa, or even just buying and having a new one delivered is way more convenient and time-efficient, since your money is not literally your time.
Aha! That's where you got me! I was thinking "working class" in the more classical sense, referring to typical lower-paying jobs. I work for a living, but I'm definitely closer to what is typically considered "middle-class" in the sense that I make enough money that I feel well-off, but not enough that I could buy a new sofa just because moving the old one is too much hassle.
Obligatory "Fuck the wealth-class". "Passive income through ownership" is a convoluted way of saying "parasitic".
Congratulations, you're part of the working class. Your wealth comes from work you do with head and hand. The epstein class want you to think of yourself as middle class, so you'll feel threatened by the working class. There is no middle class. They take, and we pay. That's what class is.
I agree with pretty much everything you're saying here, I still want to comment on
I do think it's a reasonable term to separate those that actually make a decent salary, are self-employed, own their own company (at which they work) together with others, etc. from the more clearly exploited workers that have far too few rights and are not compensated fairly.
I have no problem with selling my labour for money as long as I'm fairly compensated for it. Historically, the working class has not been.
Even if life is good for you at your income level, you're still getting scammed to a (much smaller) extent. And the Epstein class use the money they scam off you, to control society. Money has this mathematical effect where it wants to accumulate in one place. It's like a kind of economic gravity. Any inequality will magnify itself over time if it isn't carefully controlled by government.
Social democrats think good enough regulation can preserve that very-slightly-inequal system forever. But I say that kind of setup is inherently unstable. Capitalism will always trend towards inequality over time. Instead of trying to control money and make it go against its nature, we should abolish money. A gift economy would be better.
I have a friend who's done very well with the AI boom, he works for some startup, has for the past six or seven years. He moved into an apartment like 10 years ago, he was working for a pharma company, just building their servers I'll say, because I don't know what the fuck he does. When he moved into the apartment, he hit me up, I rounded up another friend or two, we took care of it.
He bought (had built) a new home about six or seven months ago. He did not call me to help him move. He's moved beyond that, because to him, he doesn't want to be involved. You don't call someone to help you move and then not take part. For him, it's a no-brainer to just pay to have it done. And that's fine, and I just kinda wanted to give an example of this divide.
This is a wild concept for other cultures. Like, in Germany people will help you move. Your friends that is. Maybe a coworker or neighbour - if you even know any neighbour at all. That is all but a given here as well. But some random guy? Nah...
Oh and you absolutely have to rent a truck. I don't know a single truck person. There is no such thing as having a truck, unless you nees it for business. Long story short: I just paid a company over >2k to move just one town over
When I was in Europe I saw a bunch of houses with trailers they could tow bulk items with their cars. Are those not common in Germany?
This can absolutely also happen in a place like Germany. Yes, no one really has a truck for personal use (or rather a box truck), but you know a guy who knows a guy that has a truck for his business and doesn't need it on the weekend, et voila. Maybe it's not that extreme, but especially for 'poorer' working class people, helping out is still essential even in Germany.
That was the ancient economy, before money even existed. You gave stuff to people. Bread, pots, meat, build a cabin. They gave stuff back that you needed, roughtly about the same value, but never exactly the value. Everybody has to be a little in debt to anyone else. If you gave back exactly what it's worth, it means you don't want to deal with that person anymore.
Yeah, this is the gift economy. And when the only economy is the gift economy, that's called communism.
Shh dude, don't tell the american working class that they are doing communism, because communism is bad, you know.
This was surprisingly funny and surprisingly positive for something to do with Americans.
That ending was damn near wholesome. Also I think my favorite part of the whole thing was "the pizza is not negotiable."
As a Canadian who owns a truck, I think this may just be a North American thing. I am the guy that is referred to when one says "I know a guy".
In central Europe it's just like "I know a guy with a trailer" or a hitch and you rent a trailer. Or as a last resort or maybe an urban thing, you hire a moving truck and still call upon your friends to load and unload and pay in beer and pizza/döner.
Americans are a very friendly people, all things considered. The whole smiling at everyone you see, helping out strangers for fun thing is not universal. Thus, this post.
My partner is from America, and visited Australia for two weeks to see Me. We spent two weeks going on dates together, visiting cool places like the museum, the zoo, a local pirate bar, an escape room. My partner says Australians are much friendlier than Americans and we smile more.
I could believe it. It's not that it's unique to America, or anything. But like I've read stories about Dutch people for instance thinking Americans on public transportation were simple, due to all the smiling and the like.
There are a lot of 'good cunts' in Aussie, for sure.
Its tricky when grumpy or upset but that's a human thing - often they're better at expressing it
(Bear in mind, this is all coming from a kiwi male - I'm scared of my feelings or expressing stuff generally)
Most of us are just regular, friendly people who are glad to help out if needed. There are pockets of shit people who thrive on hate, but that's true for any country.
They're pretty godamn loud too
That's the thing, the most vocal tend to be the worst type of people. Online that gives the impression that a lot of people are bad when in reality I think most people want to be good people.
Agreed, that was actually the point of my comment (at least in my eyes), but I do greatly appreciate you articulating it!
You can really just feel that sentiment in everyday life too, just going about your business, people want to feel helpful. I love that.
It's part of what made me not understand how powerful propaganda could be when I was younger.
Look for the helpers, and when you see someone say Mr Rogers was a bad thing, immediately set them on fire. Duty is duty.
it's hard to remember that the average person is a human just like yourself
Ignore religion, politics, and hard drugs and this is just normal.
As an american, I think it's toxic positivity because it ignores all the invisible social rejects who live on the margins of society and don't have the type of community support that makes this possible.
The OOP happened to luck out and knew some nice people and also happened to be accepted by those people as someone who's worth helping.
The same Kevin might be a completely different person when he drives through a city and sees a homeless person struggling to move a tent with all his possessions...
No matter where you come from , once you can say "I know a guy" you're an American.
I may not know a guy, but I know a guy who knows a guy
I am that guy
You got a guy guy? Nice
It's amazing how many different species of Knowaguy there are. I recently was introduced to a friend's "Bridge Guy" - a dealer in surplus bridges who will cut you a suspiciously good deal if you seem cool. Not the most immediately useful, but like... Could be damned handy to have in my back pocket should the right circumstances arise.
I've needed a bridge guy twice in my life.
Which isn't a lot, but it's weird that its happened twice.
Be careful acquiring bridges from a guy. I've heard that can go horribly sweet awry and quickly.
It still counts!
Societies that run on favors are corrupt societies.
Societies that run on neighbours, friends, acquaintances, and that guy over there helping each other out in exchange for sharing pizza and beer afterwards are wholesome societies.
I think I didn't say it how I meant to say it. I meant in a political sense, there's no law, just who you know.
I think what you originally said makes sense in the strictest sense. Technically, not favors. The payment was pizza.
In Frieren, the main hero would always charge a "fee" even to the poorest people who needed help. Often at the cost of totally worthless items because "now they don't owe me". The transaction is complete, no furthur obligation. Even "token" fees are better than ambiguous favors imo. Thats where I usually charge the friend price of a meal for most of my services.
Depends on the favors. Moving furniture for others in exchange for a portion of a pizza isn't a problem.
No not that
A society that operates on an assumption of mutual support is generally just called anarchy.
And societies ran on capital with different tiers of classes based solely on the situation a person is BORN into is certainly the more just and appropriate way to organize a society? It definitely couldn’t be one based on mutualism and equity, no sir.
/S
If the guys that frequently move furniture describe you are "strong for your size", that is a powerful compliment.
I love positive masculinity.
Some day, and that day may never come, I will call upon you to do a service for me. But until that day, consider this sofa moved.
This is 0% shitpost and 100% wholesome.
Absolute poetry.
Reads like Burkowski
I thought like a modern day Andre dubus
It has a deep seeded rhythm indeed
I am "the guy" at my kids' schools. I love it. When they need a last minute volunteer for something, they know how to reach me.
Clay pigeon signal hits the night sky
PULL!
My friend is a ring leader for these types of guys. He knows like 15 guys with a truck and at least another 30 with arms. He’s able to get a lot of projects done around the neighborhood.
Community.
IIRC, Japan_Nobunaga is a slop account.
It's been a blast to see the death of the internet as fraudsters pollute the world with books they hope to make a quick buck on and which they did not write themselves. Real fun. /s
Some of the anti-immigrant sentiments smell strongly of a CHUD larping as a Japanese man.
It reads that way, but it's a cute story 🤷
Yeah, your right.
I saw this tweet back when it was on 2.1M
PIVOT
This could have been lifted from a Neal Stephenson book.
God ! Yes !
I have a friend with a ute, though he recently moved cities (and scrapped his (very old) ute).. Guess I need to be on the lookout.
Just in case anyone was wondering, here's a video explaining what a Ute is:
https://youtu.be/9i2eZaJsC7g
Also https://youtu.be/_yj1gff-ndc
This makes me so happy 🥹
Can we not romanticize american truck culture? Those people's heads are already swollen enough without telling them everyone around them relies on their condescension to help.
Sure, there might be a few decent people out there who have trucks, but they're not the majority of truck owners. They're also more likely to help their friends and family, maybe a friend of a friend, but hardly a stranger.
And if you're viewed as an outsider or unliked? Forget it, you're SOL.
Also, this expectation that everyone "just knows", without being told, is unrealistic. It is real, in that people do expect that. And perhaps most normies do "just know." But the social rejects, the neurodivergents, the new neighbors who just moved to this state, etc.? Life is made far more challenging to these people as a direct result of that expectation that everyone should "just know" without being told.
First of all this is a shitpost community.
When I moved states, we introduced ourselves to the neighbor and they offered to mow our lawn cause we didn’t have a mower yet. Gave em a bottle of wine, chill neighbors all the way until they moved out.
Most people are decent, even more than the 80/20 rule.
You're really only acknowledging that you're part of an in-group that can move to a new neighborhood and be immediately accepted. Not everyone enjoys that privilege, and you pretending that your experience disproves that only highlights the erasure.
It doesn’t disprove what you’re saying. I’m saying that coming into a shitpost community where the vibe is supposed to be fun and communicating negatively might be a symptom of not being able to communicate positively irl.
It can be hard and I’m sorry if it is for you, but what do you expect from people? Good vibes are contagious
"Good vibes" and toxic positivity are tools of fascism. I can't talk about climate change around people cause they'd think I'm being a debby-downer.
Same thing with wealth disparity, poverty, starvation, disability, disease, conflict, displacements, etc. Can't talk about these issues, serious problems in the world, cause everyone's like "dude, good vibes only." Can't talk about corruption and fascism itself because people don't want that "negativity."
Maybe I'm cynical, but it's not without good reason. Maybe if the world held space for more cynicism then we could actually start working on some of the problems we face. But no. Can't have that. Good vibes, dude.
If I need to keep my mouth shut about all the bad things going on in the world in order to be accepted by others, then I'd honestly rather be an outcast...
You don't have to keep your mouth shut about the bad things going on in the world to be nice to people.
The same way an ongoing climate collapse, the rise of real fascism in america (not just 'being friendly' to people as you say) multiple wars and multiple capital G genocides does not mean you've got to be shitty to everyone around you just because they're not perfectly aligned with the way you speak.
Maybe try to take a minute and instead of reading everything in bad faith by instantly thinking the worst of someone who you know nothing about based purely on an internet comment, use the phrase "Dont make perfect the enemy of good."
If you want to stay a self imposed outast, that's fine too. But remember nobody is making it out alive if everyone tries to make it alone.
this is a shitpost community
And I think this post is shit, so there you go!
Yeah fuck Americans! I hate all of them tbh, even the supposed “good” ones. Every single one is a pig and deserves to die. They should really learn to be more tolerant and not to hate people based on one characteristic that they think tells me everything they need to know about a person
Dude, I'm an american myself, and having grown up surrounded by americans I think I can say that it's not always sunshine and rainbows like it's depicted in the post.
The people around me who drive trucks are the biggest assholes for miles. Rolling coal, denying climate change, flying trump flags, shining high beams in your rearview mirror. Pretending this isn't a real pattern and a serious issue isn't going to get you anywhere.
Sure, there are exceptions. Some people who drive trucks are nice people. They usually drive smaller, older, more beat-up and well-used trucks. But then again, lots of assholes drive those too. As for the big, shiny new trucks that never leave the pavement, there's a reason people say they're compensating for something. They're more likely to run over a cyclist than they are to help you move a couch.
Thing is, like you say, they're willing to help a friend of a friend, but frankly the bar for a friend is pretty low for a lot of people. As someone who's also neurodivergent and has had approximately three friends on average for most of my life, but recently moved to America and so had a full reset, I've been reminded that the majority of people like to think they're good people, even if they have questionable beliefs or cut you off in traffic or whatever, and thay extends to helping out people that they know.
Given I've been in the country a month, have autism, and live out of the city, I'm probably as in the group you describe as you can get, but I'm still fairly confident if I needed a neighbor to take me to hospital, or someone to help me move a couch, or whatever else, I could find them even through work or the neighborhood pretty quickly, as it just takes one connection to flip a switch in people's brains from "fuck that guy" to "they're in my tribe, I'll help them"
That's the thing, not everybody has that connection, and the people who lack it tend to be invisible in these kinds of situations, and there's always a lot of overt hostility directed towards those people whenever they point out that they don't have this thing that everyone else seems to be pretending that everyone has, which is community support.
It's great that you feel like you connect and have the support you need, but that doesn't justify the erasure of people who don't have that.
Yeah, I completely agree, but it also doesn't mean that the people who don't have that connection to you suddenly aren't willing to help their community, it just means that you have trouble integrating into communities, which is very valid and I can completely relate and understand, as that's kind of how being neurodivergent works.
As much as it sucks to hear, it's absolutely an "it's not them, it's you" situation, and I've been in the same position, and still do get in the same position, where I'm feeling out of place, unsure what to do and unwelcome, and very sensitive to confirmations of that, which is part of at least my experience of being autistic, but I've learnt that a lot of the times you don't actually have to pick up on social cues or whatever to make connections, as most people aren't even that invested anyway, and to most people talking to someone, even if they're weird, is better than talking to nobody. You may say "but everyone's already got friends they're always with" but even that's just an autistic lens over it, as you're just noticing when other people are having conversations but not you. And it doesn't have to be everyone. Like you said yourself, being a friend of a friend goes a long way, so if you just have a few connections with people who are friendlier or more similar to you, then that just gets you into circles. You won't exactly be neurotypical all of a sudden, but it definitely helps with feeling less different or isolated.
I do have trouble integrating into communities, that's the whole point. That people like me experience erasure. Even now, as I point out that people like me exist, most replies I'm getting have been combative in trying to double down on that erasure.
Like, can we not just acknowledge that there are people who slip through the cracks of society and as a result face challenges that most people never even have to think about or consider? Things that most people view as so easy and simple, that suddenly aren't so easy and simple when you have no friends or community.
But no, people don't like that reminder, so they're hostile towards it, which only reinforces the marginalization and erasure of people like me...
I think it's harsh on to call it erasure, but completely understand that in effect it's the same thing, because to me it seems people are hostile because what you're saying doesn't match their lived experiences, and so they're saying "that's not how it is" because they believe that you're pre-judging situations based on how you think people will react to neurodivergent people, when that's not the case at all. I like to think it comes from a place of good intentions, but yeah in reality it's no different to saying "just cheer up" to a depressed person, when it's really not that easy or how it works. The most important thing is that as irritating as it is, harboring resentment over this kind of thing helps nobody, and the best thing you can do is accept that they're trying (badly) to help, and that they just don't fully understand what the issue is.
This reads like folksy pandering of the highest order.
Wholesome.
I've got a guy 4 that
Reads like Cormac McCarthy a bit. I like it.