The driver for my mouse occupies over 1 gb
And of course they had to shoehorn some AI bullshit in it
(why I installed this driver: because i can remap the two extra buttons as copy/paste)
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Comments168View original on lemmy.world
And of course they had to shoehorn some AI bullshit in it
(why I installed this driver: because i can remap the two extra buttons as copy/paste)
maybe this will help, if you wanted to ditch the logi driver:
https://github.com/pwr-Solaar/Solaar
Solaar is a Linux manager for many Logitech keyboards, mice, and other devices that connect wirelessly to a Unifying, Bolt, Lightspeed or Nano receiver as well as many Logitech devices that connect via a USB cable or Bluetooth. Solaar is not a device driver and responds only to special messages from devices that are otherwise ignored by the Linux input system.
Saving this for later.
take it to the bushes.
Bewbs
I hope one day theres something similar to this, but for 8bitdo.
I have an 8bitdo keyboard, and in order to map my buttons, I need to boot up a windows 10 hard drive, do my one time edits, save them to the keyboard, and THEN I can turn off the pc, swap back to my ZorinOS hard drive, and THEN I can go about as normal.
And if for some reason somethings wrong, or didn't take, I'd have to repeat the whole process all over again.
All because the keyboard manager doesn't work on linux. But it's not logitech.
Sell the 8bitdo keyboard and buy one instead that is capable of running with QMK or ZMK firmware and is configurable by either VIA or VIAL.
.........now are those real words, or are you picking out random spoonfuls of alphabet soup?
QMK and ZMK are FOSS firmwares that can run on Atmel AVR and ARM chips like the RP2040.
VIA or VIAL are config utilities that you can use to remap your keyboard on the fly.
I'm going to assume these are open source apps because for some reason that's how those guys like to name stuff.
Wait for YaQMK and vmk-ng then YaVMK-ngx, which will be forked to yaamksubwthn
Trust the process. Just buy a VIA or VIAL enabled keyboard and enjoy ra easy graphical setup.
Wooting keyboards are also really nice, and are configured through a web interface. It's also a Dutch company, so if you want to buy European it's definitely a good choice :)
A web interface? Is the keyboard running a webserver or is it remotely managed by the manufacturers website?
I'm confused about configuring keyboards via web app.
Nah just a website you navigate to and then it communicates over USB. There's a desktop app too but it's just an electron wrapper.
I have a Flydigi gamepad and I can use a virtual machine with tiny11 to change the configuration. The connection isn't super stable but for the few times I have to do it, it works.
Does this require libratbag?
Does this mean I can finally stop going back a page when I nudge my mouse the wrong way??
wtf AI in your mouse driver?
Oh yeah, totally not logging your every mouse movement, no sir, not at all!
It’s training itself to pass those mouse based “I’m human” checks that some sites use.
That’s hilarious. But might actually not be a joke.
The driver for your mouse occupies a few kilobytes. The shitty app and AI garbage bloatware occupies the rest.
Use the offline installer, which is for offline and airgapped machines. It turns off the AI prompt builder as well as all the telemetry shite:
https://support.logi.com/hc/en-us/articles/11570501236119-Logitech-Options-offline-installer
AI prompt builder? What? It's a fucking mouse??????
It is repulsive to me in its entirety but apparently the vibe coders dig it.
"Vibe coders" read as "fucking idiots"
Why should that be bundled with peripherals.. doesn't seem to be a good "synergy".
But it has AI? If your mouse doesn't have AI, you're living in the past
Edit:
postpastGive me the past or give me death
One could say they are streets behind.
Logitech, the data company?!?!
We detected you moved your mouse. Downloading 1GB of AI telemetry and 3GB of user experience optimizations…
Fuck electron, fuck "web first" apps, fuck the "all application in the future will be websites" mentality.
Man, they really developed the most unfun layout system and then tried to force it to everyone
The sad reality of the end of Windows dominance.
I get what you are saying and this is definitely a factor but I think the bigger influencer was mobile adoption. As soon as smartphones took off it was inevitable that we would see a surge in cross platform frameworks/libraries.
The fact we tackled this problem by shifting everything to web apps was also inevitable given the more simplistic deployment requirements and maintenance costs of a website vs native application.
I feel like I am shouting to the void when I talk about performance of modern software being unbelievably bad.
Yeah, I can see how it ended up like that, and it would at least be nice if Windows accepted that and had one copy of the browser rather than every app installing it's own just in case of breaking changes.
And it would also be really nice if it only clogged the system for when it needs to show a UI, but I've got a ton of background processes that are also running a browser just in case today is the day that I finally need to see them. Just looking down task manager now at some suspect large processes, I can see a Razer "mouse driver", Epic, Discord, Steam, Nvidia, Oculus, NordVPN, Signal...
None of these things need to be running a browser while I'm not looking at them.
But hey, lets throw another 32GB of RAM in there, and another dozen cores, and maybe we can achieve the dream of running each of them all in their own fucking operating system as well...
Yeah and unfortunately it's going to get worse when AI agents are also always running in the background (which is inevitable, let's be honest).
Proton proves that you don't need to run on a web browser for cross platform compatibility. Turing-complete platforms are equivalent in their capabilities, it's just a matter of adding a translation layer that doesn't need to be as heavy as a browser DOM (at least for going between windows and Linux on x64).
I'm not 100% convinced that an emulation layer isn't as heavy as a browser.
We had things like Java and QT, and none of it really took off. Apple is probably to blame here as well, for wanting everything to be native to iOS and ignoring the reality that developers don't want to make five different versions of their software.
It's generally not as heavy because the layer is just reinterpreting API calls while the user code still runs natively. On a browser running JavaScript, it's using an interpreter for every line of code. Depending on the specifics, it could be doing string processing for each operation, though it probably only does the string processing once and converts the code into something it can work with faster.
Like if you want to add two variables, a compiled program would do it in about 4 cpu instructions, assuming it needed to be loaded from memory and saved back to memory. Or maybe 7 if everything had a layer of indirection (eg pointers).
A scripting language needs to parse the statement (which alone will take on the order of dozens of cpu instructions, if not hundreds), then look up the variables in a map, which can be fast but not as fast as a memory load or two, then do the add, and store the result with another map lookup. Not to mention all of the type stuff being handled at run time, like figuring out what the variables are and what an add of those types even means, plus any necessary conversions. I understand that JavaScript can be compiled and that TypeScript is a thing, but the compiled code still needs to reproduce all of the same behaviour the scripting language does, so generic functions can still be more complex to handle calling and return conventions and making sure they work on all possible types that can be provided. And if they are using eval statements (or whatever it is to process dynamically generated code), then it's back to string processing.
Plus the UI itself is all html and css, and the JavaScript interacts with it as such, limiting optimizations that would convert it into another format for faster processing. The GPU doesn't render HTML and CSS directly; it all needs to be processed for each update.
For D3D to Vulkan, the GPU handles the repetitive work while any data that needs to be converted only needs to happen once per pass through the API (eg at load time).
That browser render stuff can all be done pretty quickly on today's hardware, so it's generally usable, but native stuff is still orders of magnitude faster and the way proton works is much closer to native than a browser.
Going to be quite a bit heavier than that if you run it on a different CPU architecture though. And even if you're not running on mobile, Apple still opened that can of worms a few years back. Linux too, I guess.
Honestly, I don't mind HTML for a UI. It resizes nicely to fit a large number of devices. It looks pretty much the same no matter what you're running it on. But it should just be that, a UI layer. Otherwise the solution you were looking for was a website, and not a dozen 500MB chunks of Chrome installed around my PC.
The mouse driver used with the Commodore 64's GEOS operating system uses 3 blocks on disk, less than a kilobyte.
Most of the reason why the Logitech driver is so gargantuan is a separate Chromium browser instance, because someone thought that apps should be all websites first, which lead to most GUI libraries being developed for javascript and most devs being taught to be web developers.
VSCode is also electron with a 100mb download size and 400mb install size. I think it has 1000x more functionality than some shit Logitech UI where you change LED colors. This sounds more like incompetence on the Logitech team than a problem with electron itself.
It's not like traditional methods of packing apps are without problems. If I want to install the qbittorrent flatpak on Ubuntu, it pulls in >1gb of KDE depenencies, so I really don't see how that's better than these dreaded electron apps.
Or you can use qbittorrent-nox which is a server-only package of qbittorrent and just interact with it via its the web interface from your favorite browser.
Mind you, I only know this by chance because I explicitly wanted to run qbittorrent as a service on an always on machine which is not supposed to be used with keyboard and mouse.
The 1gb of KDE dependencies are one time only, but there's also the option of just using OpenGL + bare x11 or Wayland for GUI. If my game engine could pull it off, if IMGUI apps could pull it off, then everyone could pull it off, we just need a UI framework not ddependent on either GTK or qt.
"One time only"? In theory yes, in practice I don't have anything else that needs those KDE dependencies. When I remove qbittorrent I can safely remove them. This is just a reality check that desktop GUI frameworks and package management are really not much better than Electron/html as lots of comments in this thread seem to suggest.
That is your use case, that relative to your individual usage only one application uses the framework. In that very specific scenario, sure. However with electron it's forced to be that way for every single application no matter what your scenario is.
If electron packaged as a dependency, then it would be similar. But it's always forcibly bundled.
Ok, I will just try to install more KDE apps so I can make use of that great dependency so I can join the Electron hating circle jerk next time. But from where I stand now, Electron apps are just like any appimage or snap.
But did it support RGB?
Didn't think so, checkmate!
A lot of fancy early RGB mouse came with a companion app that needed 10MB at most, and that was ridiculed.
That driver was using 0.5% of system resources! I thought it would be worse when I saw "259 blocks free", but overall that's pretty good.
Well that's just a screen shot of the directory listing of the GEOS disk from the 64's default "OS", the BASIC interpreter. That 3 block file also contains information that only GEOS sees, the actual executable 6502 code is likely in the 500 bytes, if that. The user manual for the mouse actually contains an assembler listing of the driver. It ain't big.
The 64, of course, was never designed with a mouse in mind, so Commodore engineers used the analog paddle inputs to encode the mouse XY motion. So the "driver" really just reads the A/D converters for the paddles and fudges some kind of motion information out of it.
It works quite well. The 64 only has a 320x200 display, so it's not like you need a gaming 1000DPI 1ms mouse.
I have several Logitech peripherals. Why in the fuck does it need AI?!?!
I mean, this was their idea last year...
Forever "Subscription Mouse"
I feel like "AI Mouse" is right up their alley.
Because CEOs.
To communicate with the 5th version of software they have somehow released between the time the product was created and you bought it.
Maybe a Docker or two, perhaps a VM in the cloud. Is that still hip with the kids?
All the cool kids are running kubernetes
The actual driver for an HID USB device, even on WIndows, is still just a few KB.
Worse, the default driver for HID devices like mice, keyboards, joysticks, gamepads and so on is part of Windows since Windows 7 and all you had to do was give it an INF file that really just associated USB hardware devices that sent the PC a specific identifier (made up of a VID and a PID value) on USB protocol initialization, with that built-in driver - and that file is maybe 100 bytes. Even better, that INF file is not even needed anymore since Windows 10.
A driver for a mouse (pretty much the simplest Human Interface Device there is) that in addition to the normal mouse thing also supports setting the RGB color of some lights is stupidly simple because the needed functionality is already in the protocol.
Remember, modern digital electronics still uses really tiny processors sometimes with less than 32KB flash memory (and way less than that in RAM) only they're microcontrollers rather than microprocessors now, hence the protocols are designed so that they can be handled by processing hardware with little memory (after all, many USB Hosts aren't PCs but instead are things like USB HUDs which have microcontrollers not microprocessors)
I have no doubt in my mind whatsoever that almost the entirety of that 1GB is bloatware.
Actual driver code: about 500KB. If that.
500KB used to be the entire OS, application, drivers, and user data. Oh well.
They didn't have mice that far back.
The original Macintosh had 128k of ram.
RAM is active. It doesn't hold the entire OS when in use even now.
The entire MacOS including finder and the tools was 216KB on the 400KB floppy.
um wut
We live in the age of bloated software.
The Internet is so bloated because every page is bursting with telemetry and spa framework bullshit that over engineers a fucking music recital site.
That's not the driver but some bundled configuration & update bloatware.
Back in my days, you had to overwrite some .exe with a "0" to disable Nvidia from spying on you. The overwrite, because they would just download it again if you deleted the .exe.
I remember installing a fresh PC with win98. During installation, I disabled some windows bloatware (Imagine! You actually could do this!), and ended up with an unresponsive, non-windows app blocking the system. I killed that app and removed it from the system. Keep in mind that at this point, no network connection was set up, nor did I install any driver or program yet, this was straight from the windows install medium.
After reboot, the app was back, and again blocking the system.
Wiping the harddisk and starting installation over did not help either.
Turned out this was some bloatware installed by the BIOS whenever it detected at boot that there was a) a Windows installation that was b) "missing" their "register your PC with us" app. This needed some Windows bloatware to work, and thus failed on this machine.
This was the only time I angrily screamed at a hotline worker.
The software, afaik there is no actual driver involved.
It doesn't contribute at all to the conversation but BOOOOOOO to them for that nonsense.
That "logi" rebrand really shows how shit they've gotten.
Logitech Gaming Software was the last good thing they made.
+1 for using space sniffer. It's the best of such apps I've found. Unfortunately doesn't seem to get updated any more.
Windirstat or kdirstat for the win
Wiztree is much faster
Mmm, I've migrated from Windows now, but it would have interested me a year ago!
Windirstat crew represent
Move to WizTree. Thank me later
yeah, but between now and next time I need it I'll have forgotten wiztree but will still remember windirstat because I've been using it for years.
Windirstat is slow. For my Linux homies we use Qdirstat. 8tb full picture of each filesize, faster than I can blink
You want fast? Ask Sonic. Ugly Sonic goes sloooooooow, baby!
Same. Surprised to see so many people talking Windows on Lemmy.
Amateur! ncdu! 😂
I can't stand the look of Windirstat lol.
I use explorer++ now because it can show subdir sizes. Unfortunately performance suffers quite a bit because of no caching and unsmart file system lol. Maybe linux has this basic and essential feature in it's file explorer.
GNOME Disk Usage Analyzer
WizTree my beloved
what the fuck?? why would a mouse need ai? ancient computer user here who is very confused lol
To better track you. I mean, "enhancing your user experience."
Maybe it can AFK my character in games for me
The AI plays all video games for you, leaving you more time to work and be productive.
You can configure you mouse to press a button and it brings up a prompt where you can type an AI query in there.
To better know everything you do and train it on AI.i mean, To improve Productivity and convenience.Please don't be Logitech, please don't be Logitech...
Damnit.
Of Course it's Logitech. Their software has been shit for ages.
I do like the hardware tho and mine works just fine on linux without their garbage software. Got one of those ergo trackball mice and a G502 for some gaming.
I've been using the Logitech MX Master 3 mouse for a while now and the software has been alright. Lets me use my mouse across my desktop and laptop at the same time. It's been alright, but I go to check out my button mapping settings recently and saw "AI prompt builder" and sighed at how stupid that is. I really really want hope the adding of AI to everything is a fad like Pogs, but I somehow doubt it.
The driver:
There's something inside you
It's hard to explain
They're talking about you, boy
But you're still the same
i wonder if a open source driver alternative exists.
Piper is less than 2MB, and allows reconfiguring Logitech mouse buttons. It's available in Debian and Ubuntu package managers.
Screenshot:
I had to use Piper to get exotic features like having mouse 6, 7, 8 buttons function as mouse 6, 7, 8, rather than the default of alt-tab and ctrl-v.
This is not a driver. The README itself says:
ratbagd itself, BTW, is also not a driver.
The unofficial open source license is called logiops, and according to the Debian site most of its builds are also under 2MB (and the two builds that aren't are only slightly bigger)
There is also RatSlap, which I can't find information on how big it is (and I'm not going to bother installing it just to find out)
I never thought to look for something like this, but it looks fantastic so i’m going to try it. Thanks!
would be cool if it also worked on Windows and Macos
I use https://macmousefix.com/en/ on my Mac mouse. I’m not sure of its range of features.
https://better-mouse.com/
Does it still allow macros? I have a couple of 502s and my older one has fallen victim to the common problem of rhe switch getting bouncey so one click becomes multiple. Supposedly macros can fix this.
If your mouse drivers allow setting the debounce timer, you can set it higher so that your system doesn't allow the bouncing to register.
I'm never buying another Logitech device again because that problem that happened with my G7 back in the 00s still happened with my G900 in the 20s.
With my G7, I'd open it up when it started happening, and open up the switch to re-bend the metal piece to give it some spring back. Kept doing this until one day the plastic button that presses down on that metal part fell on carpet and was gone forever.
With my G900, I said fuck it and just bought some better mouse button switches and replaced the left mouse button. Was actually kinda glad I needed to because the battery had become a danger pillow so I replaced that, too.
But with the button issue existing for so long and being fixed by a part that cost a trivial amount compared to what I paid in the first place, you can't convince me that Logitech isn't deliberately using switches that fail quickly to drive up demand for mice.
My 903 did that, and so did the one they replaced and now your making me worry about my 502. It's shitty switches so a macro would hide it for a little at best. I tried to replace them but these are not fun to open up.
This is a physical defect. Macros make one key press effect one or more action button or key press. For instance if a common operation involves pressing a b and c in sequence you can make one button on your mouse actuate that sequence.
You can't bind a macro to left click because then you can't left click anymore. Even if you bound double clicking to single click (if this is even possible) it would mean every time it single click you would effect nothing which is equally if not more broken.
You need to either take your mouse apart and fix it or throw it in the trash.
Yes, it is a physical defect but it is common enough that people have been able to work around it with macros.
It's been a while since I tried to look into this or fix it, but a quick search shows what I think was a possible solution. (Might not be, I'm just trying to be explanatory of what I mean by a macro fixing a double click problem.) https://techenclave.com/t/mouse-double-click-issue-solution-by-coding/269878
Its broken fix or toss this solution isn't applicable directly. Also seems like it would be hard to intentionally double click and add latency to single clicks
Go tell the authors of that article then, I very clearly said I was only using it as an example.of what I meant by fixing it with macros and not saying it's a solution I've looked into. 🙄
and if you install it via fatpak its almost 1GB
7.84 MiB
I think he meant as in "if this is the first ever GTK application you install via flatpak". The "Installed Size" on Flathub only indicates the amount of storage the program itself will take up and doesn't take into account the libraries it will install alongside it (installing piper via flatpak takes up 400MB on my device).
I still think it is really negligible because people usually don't install applications that use such a variety of different graphical frameworks, and also because modern PC disk capacities are so absurdly big compared to past ones. I only have a 256GB drive and have never faced any issues regarding how much storage flatpak apps use.
I have flatpaks installed but not org.gnome.* note not first gtk app the first that require gnome runtimes. Then once you have a bunch of apps you'll end up with different versions needing different runtimes which will need constant updates of the same 1G. Given modern connectivity and storage it isn't that burdensome in truth but neither is the Windows example.
It's just humorous to crow over one and ignore the other.
The driver consumes a few KB. The bullshit software that you don't need to install is what's consuming the GB.
My first mouse driver was smaller than the picture you attached to this post
I like SpaceSniffer, it is almost 10 years old program and I still use it
Windirstat is open source
And slow as shit. WizTree takes maybe 10 seconds, whereas Windirstat will take several minutes.
Not open
Couldn't give two shits. It works better than the open source alternative you listed. I'll stick with the tool that works best.
Same, couldn't give two shits about the time for an operation I perform once every new Pope.
Same. A pearl in the sand.
Space Sniffer gang represent!
you could use autohotkey and remap mouse3/4 (or whatever they are) to C-c and C-v
My installation process for a new mouse is as follows: 1 - Attempt to plug it in. 2 - Flip the USB connector. 3 - Plug it in. 4 - Use the mouse.
Is there anything at all to be gained from installing the software that comes with the mouse? Even with extra side buttons, I've never had anything not work out of the box.
Edit: OP is remapping buttons. Got it.
Lights, dpi configuration, polling rate settings, surface calibration, and (as you mentioned) button remapping. Yes it will work without that but it can work better (and personally that’s worth a little extra ram anyways)
You skipped over the part where you attempt to plug it in, flip the USB connector attempt again, flip it again, and finally it goes in.
Saving this to share at work. What an abomination that, I am sorry you have to deal with it
,
Don't look up how much space Nvidia drivers take then.
Nvidia drivers at least do something that are fairly complex and heavy, and they're necessary. Whereas this thing is just some comically overdeveloped and extremely annoying piece of bloatware from Logitech to remap a bunch of buttons.
Driver for you mouse? What are you on? MSDOS?
You need it to remap some of the buttons on the side. I have the same garbage just for this purpose.
Baaack in my day we got a driver for our mouse on a single DD floppy...
It wasn't too long ago that a USB mouse would store the divers on the mouse.
That was actually never the case. The default USB mouse driver comes with the OS. And also today any modern mouse will work just fine with the default USB mouse driver in the OS.
What this abomination is is a kind of extended driver that allows the user to e.g. remap buttons on the mouse or control RGB lights. You know, anything but the actual basic functionality of the mouse.
You're thinking of the Titan submersible accident, I think. But they ended up stored on a Logitech controller, not a mouse.
Input Remapper on linux can get the job done without the need for this junk. I've used it for this exact purpose before.
Madness
X mouse button control
It can't detect some of the fancier buttons and gestures but it can often pickup buttons 4 and 5 for remapping, and it does chording and long press options to give you multiple functions without any AI bullshit.
I have a Logitech mouse. I just used a 3rd party app to remap.
Better mouse for Mac, but looks like you’re on Linux? There’s bound to be something
https://github.com/PixlOne/logiops
You can use Logitech's Onboard Memory Manager app which is under 20MB and doesn't require installation.
The driver itself is probably a few megabytes only. The rest is just bullshit in the name of rgb control and preset/dpi control. You seem to be using a Logitech device, you can enable the onboard memory of your mouse, then uninstall this thing and use Logitech's Onboard Memory Manager app instead.
the driver itself is kilobytes in size. Megabytes is huge for such a simple thing
I love this program by the way!!!
Anyone have other brand suggestions?
I've been using a Redragon M690 Pro as my home daily driver, and I retired my Razer Basilisk x Hyperspeed to my office, although the latter started having issues with middle clicking. The 690 is nice so far though. I don't play any twitch shooters, more of a slow burn style, so ymmv.
I also like my Redragon mouse, a "Griffin M602A-RGB". I picked it entirely because (a) the shape fits my hand well, with well-sculpted indentations for my thumb, ring, and pinky fingers, and (b) it's cheap, but not so cheap it isn't still decent.
Same actually. I got some nice RGB customization, it was comfy, had a right handed thumb rest, and the price was right. Only thing it didn't have like the Basilisk was BT functionality, which in my use case wasn't a deal breaker. Software wasn't bloated either.
Batteries are kind of a deal-breaker for me anyway. If I were to get a wireless mouse, it would have to be the kind that's powered by induction from the mouse pad.
I have a M$FT "natural" keyboard (PS/2 and not running thru a USB converter either) and a M$FT USB mouse. Both around 30 years old. They're indestructible it seems, and both have worked great with every Linux distro I've ever used.
No, unfortunately. Logitech mice are the best performing in quality, battery life, and longevity at their price range. I've tried many other mice in the budget range, and they all fail quickly, eat batteries, or perform poorly in comparison.
I bought a couple Logitech mice a few years ago and I gotta say, they weren't the best. The material they are made out of melts slowly over time. I use these mice and get sticky shit on my fingers. It's not food or anything I'm doing. I've scrubbed them with rubbing alcohol and no matter what a little bit of sticky stuff is always coming off. So the finish on them isn't great, at best. Never had other mice do this.
I had one that had rubberized sides that slowly did that over the years. After a decade? of daily use it finally started giving up. Most non-logi non-OEM mice I've used lasted months at best.
You described exactly my issue but it took under 5 years. Maybe 3? I've used $10 much much longer with only occasional hiccups like resolution issues on certain mousepads
I've been using super cheap 10 € Logitech mice since the dawn of time and I've never experienced that. What are you doing with your mouse?
It is either a type of rubberized material degrading or one piece of plastic in the group. Being a home-labber/gamer I have gone through a couple hundred mice easily. In addition to Logitech, I've had lots of stock MS/Dell/HP and even Sun mice. A few can get this condition with the materials. Often it will be a rubberized component, but sometimes it is a plastic part. Like the mouse wheel is a more common part that gets sticky, but the rest of the mouse is okay. Nothing happened other than it sat around for a long time. It could be that the last user had grubby fingers stained orange from cheetos whilst using that mouse and that lent somehow to the degradation. Hard to say. Plastic does degrade for sure and maybe our grubby mitts help?
I knew someone would blame me. Yeah the cheap ones are normal plastic and would never disintegrate. Kind of, again, like the other 28 mice I've used in my life. The expensive Logitech mice I bought are a rubberized plastic meant for comfort but they aren't durable. Literally did nothing wrong or different but that sticky shit is the pits, so I won't be buying anymore $180 mice. I hadn't before these either.
My recommendation is the G305. Yes, a gaming mouse. But they're both cheap and have an insanely good polling rate, so the mouse is smooooooth. Also, no rubberized nonsense to degrade.
Huh, neat
LOL.