So, is the USA screwed?
You know, DOGE, fascist president and corporations dictating what people can do, institutions being ruined, laws being ignored. Is there any way out of that or is it over? Is the USA done?
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In the short term: Yes. Unless the US military decides to remove a sitting president but that is extremely unlikely.
In the long term: Yes, but also no. Fascism is extremely inefficient and expensive and the US is destroying its own economy and pushing away all of its allies and former trade partners. Things will get very rough but it will not last forever. There will be a lot of rebuilding that needs to be done.
Unfortunately this has been a long time coming. The United States has never really been united and it was only a matter of time before another possible civil war loomed on the horizon.
I would say it's been coming since BEFORE the civil war.
People always take my words out of context when I say that life in general would have been better for everyone long term if the south won.
People take that to mean that I'm pro-slavery. I'm not. If the south won, slavery would have died out naturally by the early 1900s (assuming confederate america lasted that long)
But if the south had won, and been able to leave the union? I feel like they'd have made the worst possible choices for their country on a repeated basis. I feel like their country would have crumbled and disolved into multiple smaller countries. The united states would have continued expanding out west. Texas is probably the only former state that wouldn't have crumbled.
The rest of the confederate states? They'd be struggling to survive, last in the world in education, terrible healthcare, basically a bunch of 3rd world countries. But the rest of the USA? SO MUCH HEALTHIER FOR IT!!! All these cancers trying to tear down OUR country today, wouldn't be part of our country. They can go fuck up the country of Alabama. Go nuts.
The pure amount of butterfly effect policies that would be different is mind blowing.
To me, the south winning isn't about slavery. It's about taking this large lump sum of the worst people in the country, and cutting them free like you cut away a tumor to get rid of cancer.
This is complete hogwash speculation. You have no idea what would have happened to the North if the split had been permanent.
I mean it's very obviously speculation because nobody has a crystal ball to see the outcome of decisions that never happened. It's just an interesting thought experiment and something to ponder.
You haven’t factored in the the north’s economy was based on manufacturing things using materials from the south. Industrialists got rich from it and that’s a major factor in why New York cops were returning slaves before the war.
The Industrial Revolution was powered by coal from the south.
Before the public works and refrigerated train cars that made California a farming state, a lot of food was grown down there.
On the one hand... First World War would've ended very differently.
On the other... Maybe eugenics would already be discredited by the 20s with how it went in Dixie.
I mean WWI was salty Europeans fighting salty Europeans over European salt. Nothing for America to get involved in.
I didn't even mention the Second World War, because the first would've been different enough to make it having happened in a familiar form into unlikely.
Yeah I wanted to say WWI and mistyped.
The US arms shipments to Britain, and later after the gun runner ship Lustiana, hoping to use its civilian passengers as a shield in breach of the rules of war, led to American popular support for joining with the Allies, which they eventually did to push Germany to defeat despite the newly Sovietised Russia withdrawing.
And it might be that Dixieland and Yankeeland would support the Allies and Axis, and WWI would have had an American theatre, too opening in 1915 or so. And any major war fought in North America in the 20th century would totally alter the form US neo imperial power and hegemony took, if any at all, in the latter part of the 20th century.
As a minimum, a different US would alter how Versaille and Balfour treaties were made and what who agreed to.
Did you forget about the part where the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor? You couldn't have kept the US out of World War 2 with a trillion dollar payoff. The country wanted blood.
Oh shit I added an extra I for some reason. I mean WWI. WWII was definitely an American problem too.
Lmao, this is why Arabic numbers are superior to Roman numbers.
You say this but it's hardly just the south that voted for trump. As you mentioned, the butterfly effect could have changed things dramatically. Things still could have turned out worse for everyone.
Though things are pretty crap now so I can definitely relate to your thought process.
Do you have access to some alternate timeline or something? Where can I get this secret information that you have?
The civil war itself destroyed the south's market for cotton. The number of slaves that fled was ever increasing and the war made it even easier.
If the north and south were separated they would have continued to come north but would then be asylum seekers.
The north of the south would have been the main producers of economic growth as mineral exports from that region exploded after the civil war. Based on this alone it's not certain the confederacy would have actually collapsed.
It would take someone with deep historical knowledge of that era to make any realistic predictions of what would have happened.
For instance, the likelihood of the confederate states not further splittering isnt known. And then there are issues such as if the west coast or other regions would do attempt the same break from the union.
There are all sorts of trade imbalances that would be in play. But it's hardly an idle thought experiment. There are simply too many pieces.
Yeah big [[Citation needed]] vibes here
To be fair though, Texas seceded once already and within a year or two was begging to be taken back. They probably would have crumbled too.
How exactly would slavery have died out “naturally” in a union made up entirely of slave states who’d just fought and won a war to defend it? I get your point about letting the south stand in its own so it could fall, but you are too casually sweeping aside the issue of slavery. “Yeah yeah - that would pass naturally - now let me tell you my MAIN point….”
Frankly, it'skind of the opposite: the slavery part of the argument is obvious, simply because IIRC the model of chattel slavery the US south operated on was only viable through the constant flow of new people to feed into the meatgrinder. The "better off" part is kinda dubious.
I’m afraid you do not recall correctly. One of the features of American slavery is that it was population self-sustaining. You can see #4 on this UNESCO page. I like the way they put it: American slavery created a people where there was none before.
Well, I'll be damned.
Northerners weren't simply more high minded than southerners concerning slavery - industrialization lessened their dependence on slaves to the point where they could abandon slavery without the economy crumbling.
Presumably this would happen in the south as they industrialized as well.
Agriculture still has not eliminated manual labor, son.
Oh OK
Yep the South was invested in agriculture, to this day a labor-intensive sector, largely due to advantages in climate and geography which were basically fixed. So how again would slavery have spontaneously ended in the South again? It’s a question - please answer it.
What if this is karma for invading and taking half of Mexico? There weren’t slavers or shittier-that-usual people in the region before that.
I mean, if the united states is getting karma for invading and annexing other peoples land, SURELY you'd think there would have been some repercussions from Native Americans, right? Hell, even Canada arguably has some leeway to give us karma if that's the case.
And Hawaii.
And technically Puerto Rico, and the Somoa Islands, and Guam.
Even though Vietnam isn't, nor has it ever been a US territory, they still know what it's like to be invaded by us. We were never trying to take land for ourselves, but we WERE trying to take land for our cold war ally. We just failed is all. And yet......for everybody reading this from a country that ISN'T America, here's the weird thing. In our schools, they teach vietnam in history as if WE WON. Which I assume the rest of the world easily see's how absurd that is. Here in America? There are PLENTY of people who think we've never lost a war. There are people who defend the 2001-2020 invasion of multiple middle eastern countries as a war we won. Some of them think it was multiple wars in a short amount of time we won. Others think it was one continuous war that we won. But those people exist. I've met many of them.
Now, with all that said, NOBODY calls them freedom fries. Nobody. Never even heard of a single person who calls them that. It was a 2 week thing on tv, and then everybody just shrugged and called it stupid. Which is exactly what I'm hoping this whole gulf of america/mexico thing is. Just political theater, and then it's over because it's stupid.
You should read about the Spanish missions and their treatment of the native people on the west coast. But also the Mexicans weren't innocent of things either. They were constantly having political violence and even voluntarily returned monarchies. (yes plural)
As. Mexican, I agree with you. The conquistadores weren’t people of the highest caliber, and while the catholic monks were better, their mission was evangelizing at any cost, even if it meant killing people who didn’t want to. Even prehispanic people could be brutal.
The main difference between colonial Mexico and USA was that slavery wasn’t a thing here, because the evangelized became full-fledged catholics, having a saved soul and all. Something unthinkable for the slavers, who justified their acts because blacks “didn’t have souls”.
Mexican creoles, the hacendados, found a loophole: Catholics could still be exploited by crushing, multigenerational debt. That’s why we had a century of turmoil after the revolution(s), right after the century of turmoil after our independence from Spain.
Guess my point is: by the time USA invaded and forcefully took half our country, we didn’t have slavers (the hacendado’s loophole was gone), and definitely didn’t trade humans as things. Your south brought back evils that were gone at the time.
Yeah that's true. The American South was exceptionally evil. I don't think we've ever properly processed that as a country.
You've convinced me. I hadn't thought if it quite that way.
(The previous comment was unedited at the time this was written, just in case)
Lol. Americans continuing to vastly overestimate their contribution to WW2
You are being way too optimistic. A lot of people will needlessly die, not only from violence but also disease, starvation, suicide and natural disasters.
All these years, preppers may have been right. Having a well supplied fortress of your own can turn out to be very handy.
It's still a shitty situation. Really what's a shitty situation with an extra 20 kg of coffee in your basement, but still a shitty situation? The prepper fortress is a very unrealistic thing to try to strive for anyhow for anyone living in a city, majority of people. It's the widespread doomsday mentality and the downward spiral of the conspiracy nutheads that got the USA where it is today anyhow... Good luck hanging on in your basement for 10 years. That's easily how long it can take if it goes full fascist. Even then, hard to compare, the implosion of a nuclear armed superpower has only happened once before in history (Soviet Union), and that shit ain't over yet either, Ukraine is a direct continuation of the process. So they're like 35-ish years in, where USA seems to be heading now. Abandoning NATO is the equivalent of the implosion of the Warsaw Pact.
Personally I think this resurgence is a highly specific cultural moment that is coming as religion dies off and the white population of America teeters toward minority status.
Since the US birth rate began to decline (natural phenomenon that happens to all developed nations) its strong immigration has held it up. But that has had an accumulating demographic effect. White people lost their official hegemony a long time ago but now they are facing the prospect of losing their simple majority and it scares the living shit out of them. It’s not just because privilege sees equality as oppression. It’s also because they know that they have treated others incredibly badly, and deserve to be castigated should they lose power.
That’s why this Trump admin is so ugly. It’s the death spasm of a dying culture. That’s why this Trump admin is hollow at the center: it’s backed by a group that has no future and can only harken back to the past. This is why this Trump admin is openly undemocratic: they no longer have the numbers to play the game.
This too shall pass, but at great cost. The USA is the greatest political prize there has ever been and it won’t be let go of lightly.
It is also with saying that America will be a different thing on the other end of this. No crumbling empire comes back the same.
The US is less one country than the EU members are and we are a long way off of becoming one.
The funny things is americans were like "We need guns to protect ourselves from tyranny." But of course, the ones with the guns are precisely the ones siding with tyrants.
They were still a democracy back then, now it's an oligarchy.
I mean, you'll get to see the difference between a bad and discriminatory democracy and a pure dictatorship soon enough. If you think an economical crash will bring back progressivism, I wish you good luck but I think it's really naive. At this point with the gafam siding with pedo-president, they just wait for automation and AI to get a little further before getting rid of half of the country. And since it's the US, the other half of the country will take care of it for them. An economical crash would be the perfect setup for this. I'm not even american but for the first time of my life I'm considering getting a gun.
The former elected to enfranchise the aforementioned blacks, the latter is deporting people on a hunch, for instance.
That's an interesting point, because in terms of wealth inequality and unbridled exploitative capitalism stuff was pretty fucking dreadful back then too. But I don't think there was as much interest in the super rich taking control of the government, because the government didn't do that much and had never really been a problem for the wealthy (apart from that time they tried to abolish slavery...)
I'm normally a "folks need to work together, big problems need big solutions" European lefty, but seeing the horror of what a powerful central government can do when it's in the hands of crazy dipshits... It certainly highlights the benefits of small governments and localised power. Maybe this will lead to growth of some forces of progress that aren't the federal government? The question is whether after the inevitable crash and burn, the next government will be willing to introduce the actual constraints, checks and balances to not let this happen again?
Power market's going to get real funky in over the next 6 months as utilities run out of runway on their renewable programs.
Those pricks had one fucking job and they absolutely blew it. Boot lickers all of them, it makes me sick.
Lots of Americans have guns. Not just conservatives.
Oh yeah then explain this *gestures broadly at everything*
The chuds have more guns, thanks to many years of lefties demanding guns be removed from society and giving theirs up while the chuds just bought more (thanks for that one, Dad and friends)
They're also usually a liiiitle more ready to use them, and the law is a looooot more ready to defend them than they are us
Right wingers have organized militias for decades. These might be made up of stupid fat fucks, but they have trained how to organize, communicate, and do logistics.
The number and quality of weapons is one factor. Wars are won by logistics, communication, and coordination. If you have an existing social political network, you can arm it pretty quickly. A group that knows how to set up a music festival in the middle of nowhere, can learn how to run a military camp.
-Karl Marx
Being a shitty person is multidisciplinary, apparently.
"He who saves his country does not violate any law." -Donald Trump (reading a post-it note handed to him by Felon Musk, quoting Napoleon, or something)
He's old and doesn't have much time left. The really problematic people are all around him and they are many.
Yeah he's like the very obvious and prominant pus-filled boil on a body riddled with disease. He isn't the cause of the disease, just one of the symptoms.
Lol
True hydra situation going on
-Terry Pratchett (Lords and Ladies)
Been thinking about this quote a lot lately. The fact that Trump is so popular shows that he’s just the symptom of a deeper, possibly terminal disease.
Nobody is saying it would solve the problem but it might make me feel a little better
Capitalism
There's a lot of the "atheist" tech bros that still peasant-brain worship the market with human sacrifices as if it will bear them miracles. I like to tell them "You're an atheist just like me, except I go one god further."
This is the thing making me lean more toward leaving than trying to change things. Even if Trump were magically impeached today, and our election system were left as near-intact as it is, somebody just like him could be just as likely to be elected in the next cycle. And odds are he's going to pull off rigging the system to make sure that happens by then.
I think that on a long term scale, to get at the root, something needs to be done about the media machine behind him. Culture eats policy for breakfast.
inb4 moderation
Shitty time to be alive when it's no longer cool to shoot Nazis.
As Elon Sucks says, "you're the media now".
Who has a good recipe for cooking the rich
Trump is just the convenient caricature of a puppet pushed forward to be the face and disorganise everything. When he dies he'll be replaced by someone else capable of filling that role. It wouldn't surprise me if the follow-up person is already known in their circles.
Trump is old and messed up. The propaganda rocketing him up can just as easily shoot him down. He is here to do damage and to disrupt and corrupt the system. He's here to weed out the failsafes against fascism/monarchy so a new political model can take over.
When he's done enough, someone else will step forward to rebuild and 'repair the damage' but only in such a way that the fascist/oligarchy gains more power and the majority of people lose more power.
Not that I'm opposed to the idea on principle, but realistically that kind of long wolf adventurism would only make things worse.
I hate to say it, but yes. Everything we've predicted from trump has come true thus far.
The insurrection was predicted
The migrant camps were predicted
The ice raids were predicted
Roe v Wade was predicted
SellingGiving Ukraine to Russia was predictedBanning DEI was predicted
The list goes on but more importantly these were all seen as hypothetical worst case scenarios. We should stop treating the next steps like they are hypothetical. America has fallen, and civil war is next.
Former presidents at least recognized they had the responsibility to take care of both the people who voted for them and the people who didn't. Trump only sees the people who voted for him and the people he needs to make an example of.
I hate to say it, but the DNC is weak and won't help us anymore. I supported Kamala like hell and believed that they could figure it out but they just don't and won't.
I'm not a violent person. I hate the thought that I'd ever be forced into a situation where I need to either learn how to fight or die (because right now I'm SOL). I never wanted to find myself rooting for assassins and feeling like the world would be better off of certain people were dead. I'd rather believe the world would be better off if certain people were alive.
But all I see in the future is a federal coup backed by sycophants in the Senate and supreme Court that then collides with the governors of blue states who won't bend the knee.
TL;Dr if we don't go full dictator, we are going to civil war, and we deserve it.
In the short term, yes.
If trump remains in office after this term, absolutely yes.
If we get a different admin - not just another republicrat trump clone - they’re going to have to spend an inordinate amount of time fixing all of trump’s fuckups. One of which should be restricting any wannabe monarch’s ability to rule by decree in the US. So yeah, we’re fucked, and we’re gonna have to spend a lot of effort getting unfucked, digging ourselves out of an oligarchy hole, instead of moving forward from a continually advancing starting point.
E: allies are already turning away from us, politically and economically. They’ll form new alliances and relationships that the US doesn’t get to be a part of, or at least won’t get a leading position in. Same with things like soft power from international aid. China will step in, maybe the EU or even Russia. We lose the goodwill, stability, and any economic “ins” we could have achieved with that soft power. We’re fucked in lots of ways.
During my lifetime, the view people have of the US has completely changed.
It used to be "When I grow up, I want to move there." and "Oh, you went to the US on vacation? AWESOME".
Now it's "Why the fuck would you go there, are you stupid?"
Agreed on all counts.
Gone. It's gone. I'm your neighbor. There's no more goodwill. It's been completely replaced with desire to see your hubris teach a collective lesson, and a process of internal reflection on how we can not end up like you.
My country looked up to the US as a charismatic winner with a big ego and an anger problem, who turned full coked up psychopath now. I listened to the Fall of Civilizations-Podcast a lot and this feels like one. It's scary to watch and I feel sorry for all the good people living in this mess. But I agree, there is no sympathy left. Let the raging insanity humble the evil empire.
We're kin. Fall of civ is my dystopian lullaby. I can hear that piano refrain, but it's about us now.
I read an interview with the guy, he said that there are only a few fallen civilizations left to talk about and that he wants to end his podcast with an episode about us and our (first time ever) global civilization. Looking forward to that.
On the other hand, I read and listened to Kim Stanley Robinson a lot. In this podcast, he explains why he doesn't want to write dystopian novels, that they comfortably trap our mind. That we need utopian stories to not give up and let them™ win. I think he has a point.
Is your country Germany? Please don't repeat our mistakes AND the mistakes of your past! The AfD gaining ground is very worrisome.
Hope you effectively learn that lesson. I don’t blame any country for turning away from the US. Stupid people electing destructive narcissists and doing absolutely nothing to prevent it.
3 generations of people 'voting according to their pocketbooks' makes an easily controlled monoculture.
Their pocketbooks were morons for three generations, too.
Better focus on that really hard, because the rise of far-right parties around the world shows a lot of people are heading in the same direction. Absolutely condemn us, but watch your own back yards as well.
You're 100% correct. My unscientific polling suggests to me that 8/10 Canadians thought Elon was a force for good about a year ago.
We also had a cadre of MAGA north sticking flags on their cars, honking nonstop, shitting in the streets, and blocking the capital and the border when we had COVID restrictions in place. Today, zero percent of them would have a problem being the 51st state, for all their bleating about it being about them protecting "my freedoms" for me. I'm proud to see our flag being displayed this time though, because I'm not dubious about the motivation, but this is no time to stop being vigilant about what little democracy we have left.
Yeah no, this will be long term
First trump term, him fucking over all allies is something the allies could forgive. Second time, not so much. Allies now know they can't rely on the US to be a trustworthy ally.
Trump already destroyed all soft power, he wants to reduce military spending by 50% too, so hard power will be down the drain as well.
Then he's destroying the economy, he increased highcorruption like there is no tomorrow, he is destroying education and he is destroying all oversight on companies
He's working hard on destroying democratic institutions too so forget fair elections, as if the US ever had any.
IMHO, the US will never recover from trump, and that is what it deserves. It always had the great chance to be truely great but it fucked itself around every corner trying to please the rich
It's some very good news if he's indeed dramatically downsizing the military. Gives Canada and Mexico a fighting chance! Will Canada be USA's next Vietnam experience?
Depends how that happens. I'ld see them sell off lots of high tech gear to highest bidding crazy people for a quick cash grab. Same amount of weapons, less controlled.
Canadian Moose Cavalry, anyone?
You say this like it's a bad thing
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mentally_ill_monarchs
Trump is the first very televised idiot for this list... Tho the people are even less sane for REelecting him
Yes.
The amount of harm already done to your country by Trump and Musk is immeasurable, and will take a generation or more to recover from.
The amount of harm done to your standing in the world is equally bad. The world was skeptical after Trump's first term fucked over the rest of the world, but we were hopeful that maybe the US had learned their lesson?
Nope. They elected a fascist. They RE-elected a known fascist, felon, rapist, idiot-child, psychopath. Worse, they bolstered Musk to get into a seat of unauthorized and unimaginable power.
When Trump announced his idiotic tarrifs, Canada collectively said "that's it - we're divorcing." When he pulled back on the idea for 30 days, Canada said "don't care, still divorcing."
Trump is following the exact model of Hitler, and it's only a matter of time until he actually invades either Greenland or Canada if he's not stopped. The USA has to collapse into ruin and rebuild from scratch before anyone is going to trust them again.
The silver lining here is that with now 8 years of abolishing civil/workers rights, technology and social development being suppressed and Americans falling so objectively behind in most measurable fields, hopefully Americans can get over their blatantly false sense of exceptionalism and become comfortable just being another part of the world.
Exceptionalism and nationalism has more to do with the propaganda people are being fed, and less with the actual reality they are living. It will take more than a hard downturn in quality-of-life I think.
Yeah. I think that Russians feel the same inside of their country, because they're been fed with propaganda.
Yea. I'm sure they will be humbled like the people of North Korea, who think their supernatural leader invented hamburgers and the electric guitar.
North Koreans don't think this. Everybody knows its bullshit. The point is not for people to believe in the bullshit, the point is normalizing the government to get away with obvious bullshit. And this pattern is not exclusive to North Korea at all.
How do you know everyone knows its bullshit?
When I was in the Russia – my last time was as late as 2019 – the shocking thing was to notice that people there really think their country is somehow a good and exemplatory place! At least in the Russia people should by all logic understand it's all bullshit. But in practical terms they don't. They go with it.
Nah there's still plenty of cognitive dissonance to go around
What technology or technology development is being suppressed?
The USA are still leading in most technological fields and have a dominant position.
The US does not have a dominant position in:
microchips.
batteries.
solar.
material science.
fusion.
energy.
computer science.
automotive.
displays.
The list goes on.
If you still think the USA is leading in tech, you are sorely misinformed about the state of the technological world(to be fair, it Is startling how rapidly the US has fallen out of grace in many of these technological fields).
The US is either barely clinging to previous legacies of prowess in tech fields to match other countries or falling behind rapidly, and without innovative latitude, federal grants or funding for research, they're falling behind even further.
the US does not have the technological edge it once did; scientists, officials from the department of defense, everybody in the know agrees and have been making public statements about how quickly the US is falling behind in critical scientific and technological fields.
The US is still leading in aerospace and defense. Boeing is in a slump, but military planes are top notch. SpaceX is a decade ahead of the global competition at least.
All the biggest and leading companies in that area are still based in the US. American companies dominate the market for software and internet services. The possibly most disruptive technology AI is also firmly in the hands of the USA.
You're also missing biotechnology as another key sector, where the US is doing very well.
That much is clear. It's still doing very good though.
The amount of money spent on R&D is still huge in the USA and it attracts top minds from across the globe.
aoaoe
Huh? The US government paying SpaceX made it possible to succeed in the first place. That's literally the US investing in aerospace tech.
China is catching up, but still behind in defense and aerospace technology. The one area they are ahead is industrial capacity to build, especially ships. China builds a huge number of civilian and military ships.
Wages, manufacturing, etc. are all far more expensive in the US. It's also much easier and cheaper to copy someone else's design than to discover and build for the first time.
Microsoft has good support for Linux nowadays with Windows services for Linux and Azure Linux for example. On the desktop Microsoft Windows is still leading in market share and Microsoft Office is dominating as well.
Where are the biggest Linux companies located?
Apple's AR/VR is innovative, if not particularly successful in the market. Their M-series chips are among the best chip available. Very fast with low power use.
Apple makes their products in same factories (Foxconn etc) as other companies. So the labor conditions aren't unique to Apple at all.
I mostly agree. The quality of the US education system is similar to the health care system. The US has some of the best education and health care in the world. However, it's neither cheap nor affordable for the majority of the population.
I agree mostly. Regarding funding under Trump, we will see. Elon Musk certainly know about R&D costs and benefits and is influential.
Yes, other countries are catching up steadily overall and are ahead in some areas, especially China.
aaoao
Well, it depends on how you define the USA. You mean the Republic of the United States of America? Yeah, no, that's dead. It is currently dead. It died when the SCOTUS made the president functionally beyond criminal prosecution, and everyone has just kind of been playing weekend at Bernie's since then (though the Trump administration is dropping the pretense pretty quickly). Don't get me wrong, it's been dying for a long time, but that was the exact moment it was declared dead. No matter what happens, the republic as we knew it is dead and is not coming back. Nobody believes in the constitution anymore; among our leadership there are only either those who are in a hurry to destroy it, or those who are unwilling to defend it. I think a lot of the American populace haven't sincerely believed in the constitution as an effective charter for governance for a while, too. Imo, we're less than a year from the legislature being dissolved in some fashion of another, unless they just hang on like some ceremonial vestigial organ.
What we get to decide now is what comes next. That's what nobody's sure about. Are we going to have a middle-east style theocratic government? Italian fascism? Maybe the military defends the constitution from all enemies foreign and domestic and we re-form the republic? German fascism? Neofeudalism? Peaceful balkanization? Hot balkanization? COULD IT BE?! BY GOD, it's the ghost of Lenin with a steel chair! Or maybe we'll get something entirely new? It's frankly impossible to guess while we're living in it. I think cold balkanization is both the most likely and most optimistic scenario. IN THE MEANWHILE, yeah, you're still going to see all the window trimmings of the USA; the maps will still say USA, we'll at least nominally still have the things that make America America (like the constitution still sitting in its fancy protective case, as though the GOP didn't just wipe Trump's ass with it), it'll all look weirdly normal while they make the republic's corpse do a funny little jig.
Just wanted to say: react now. Their actions will slowly get normalized and it will be a much harder fight once culture starts working against you
If we can't get enough people protesting and taking action, yes. The window is closing.
The fuck is protesting going to do at this point, lets be real here. Why do you think a protest has any sway of the bulldozer that is happening in the US Legal system?
Protesting is just not gonna accomplish much, a little bit more than that is needed I think.
General strikes are the only answer.
Such bull pucks! History shows 3% of population protests work.
Just to make it clear, though: The kind of protesting that works is not standing in the road and blocking traffic on a weekend. We're talking indefinitely long protests where you occupy public places in a massive show of force meant to force the present regime to back down, and all the violent clashes and multi-day standoffs that come with that. This is (part of) why the civil rights movement worked but the Iraq war protests didn't. For a recent example of this in action look up the Ukrainian Revolution or the Tunisian Revolution, or for an American example the civil rights movement. If the person you're responding to had in mind more typical quiet single-day protests then they're 100% correct, otherwise you're right but it's very much uncertain whether Americans have the guts for this kind of stunt.
Americans are the most domesticated and propagandized culture on the planet. I gave up on the ideal of mass consciousness after Occupy, because the billionaires who own this country have spent generations dumbing it down to the point that almost nobody cares. We're not seeing mass protests of the kind you describe untill things get very bad for a lot of people.
Occupy was infiltrated by our government by people meant to destroy it from the inside. They incited people and then arrested them for it. This isn't something that simply died off, they've mastered being able to co-opt an idea, push it the way they want, propagandize FUD around it, and then make it disappear.
Occupy destroyed itself by being too unfocused and ambitious. It also failed to institutionalize and burned itself out quickly.
Sure the state also did its part to sabotage it. However some of the structures like consensus and stack speakers were easily exploited by all kinds of detractors and grand standers and also wore people out by their duration.
Don't get me wrong, it was great that it happened and there are merits to its approach.
CHAZ had a similar problem with their demands. What Occupy and CHAZ have in common is a continuous occupation of an area with people living there and building a small society. Security concerns, internal contradictions, and external pressure then lead to them falling apart after a month. With both we got a super intense short time of action with grand rhetoric but no staying power. Participants seem to be more interested in experiencing revolutionary cosplaying an anarchist utopia than achieving effective change or building a sustainable movement.
Occupy and CHAZ also have in common, that they were not repeated the next month or the next year with any success. Previous participants were frustrated or burnt out by the experience and outcomes.
The Dakota Access Pipeline protests also seem to have attracted protest tourists, who came more for the vibes than the cause.
In this case as well, the protest lasted for one longer time only, remained mostly local, and even ethnically specific.
I don't know that much about American protest culture and organizations. But my impression is a lack of long term organizations and repeated protests for years for the same goal. There are punctual chaotic outbreaks, sometimes widespread anger like with BLM.
What other sustained long term groups exist besides Code Pink? The name BLM was coopted and exploited financially by a foundation afaik.
I also know that climate activist movements like Fridays for Future and eXtinction Rebellion were only able to mobilize a fraction of what was going on in Europe at the time.
In contrast to Dakota Access the German group Ende Gelände occupied a different coal mine with a couple thousand people every year for a week or so from 2015 to 2024.
Do I have a wrong impression or is there a lack of political organization around protests and causes in the USA?
That just means your target changes. You're not protesting to change an unchangeable administration. Instead you're building consensus and creating a movement that can activate if certain lines are crossed.
We live in a criminally stupid country but Musk is doing his best to show everyone that being a billionaire should be a crime.
Edit: the tweet is fake, btw
Not even close to being done. Right now the biggest changes are a reduction in non law enforcement/immigration government staff and contracts being paid out. The biggest thing coming down the pipeline is Trump clearly wants to free himself of the courts and congress. But it's far too early to say he's won that. And even that wouldn't be the end of things. In the US the states have a lot of autonomy. They are actually the ones responsible for holding elections. So let's look at a worst case scenario, where he tries to say we shouldn't have elections.
The first thing that's going to happen is all the blue states are going to tell him to fuck off and hold them anyways. The second thing that's going to happen is some red states will also do so, although they'll likely be less coarse with the language. Then a few more red states will be pressured into having elections by massive protests of people angry they can't vote anymore. Then while Trump is having a fit because there's no real way for him to stop this process, we get to learn about a fun feature of the US Congress. There is no law requiring it to meet in D.C. Trump would likely try to claim whatever is left over is the real congress, but without having been elected the Constitution is clear that those states forfeit representation until they hold an election.
So we'd be left with a House that is majority anti-Trump, after all, he tried to make them irrelevant at best. In the Senate we'd likely be looking at something of an even split in 2026. There's probably 5-7ish red states that would hold elections anyways and combined with the blue states and senate democrats leaving DC they would be able to convene elsewhere with a majority to declare rules of the Senate without Trump's interference. The new Congress would likely swiftly vote to impeach Trump. The remnants of the old one would protest this but they don't have any legal power. Only the backing of Trump and propaganda power.
This leaves Vance with a choice. This would be by design because our democratic party leaders only appear to be stupid when convenient. Vance can throw his weight behind Trump and get impeached himself or he can order Trump removed from the White House thus acknowledging the primacy of Congress. If he chooses the first option then Congress simply repeats the process and the presidency goes to the next person in line, the speaker of the house. Yes, Congress can effectively vote one of it's own members into the White House at any time. This president then declares an emergency and orders the military to secure DC. The military loves process, and loves the Constitution. It is highly likely this order would be followed.
However all would not be well, it's not a fairy tale. It would likely be the start of an American Insurgency that would take decades to root out. It would certainly be the end of the US as the hegemonic world power. Our Aircraft Carriers would rust in port and our projection of soft and hard power over the world would wither. But we would still be here, just much diminished and never the same in our lifetimes. This is certainly scary but if we all do our part this is as close as we would come to losing our democracy. Far more insidious is the threat of slowly revoking the right to vote. They'd start by raising the age, then by requiring you to not have any debt of specific kinds, then by making harsh punishments for illegally voting, and other such things until voting is effectively restricted to land owners. Certain factions would like to get it to white christian male landowners but that's probably a decade or more down that line if at all.
Notes -
Why wouldn't he just send in the military?
2028 isn't enough time to purge and train enough people to make the military loyal to him. He would be mid project on that at best and the states could effectively counter him into a stand still with their national guard. This would make many people stay home, but the determined voters are likely to be anti-trump because that's the change incentive. Loyalists will feel like the elections don't matter.
What's stopping SCOTUS from declaring the elections invalid?
The states. SCOTUS is only relevant as long as they have reputation of being an impartial arbiter of Constitutional Law. That opinion is already in the trash heap. They could not make such a decision today, or after 4 more years unless they spend the next 4 years setting themselves as at least a mild opposition in a long game. But they haven't shown that kind of patience.
What happens in Trump surrounds himself with thousands of armed loyalists in DC?
We select a new capital and wish him the best of luck dealing with DC. There is no law requiring DC be the Capital. The Constitution doesn't even require the states to give up a district, it only provides the legal possibility. There's no need to engage in that kind of a conflict. Such a group would be arrested bit by bit by Maryland, Virginia, and Federal authorities until it could be resolved swiftly.
You seem far more hopeful than me, and far more intelligent, so I am going to try and hold on to a sliver of hope.
I'm probably not smarter than you, this is just in my field of study. And to throw a little water on it, it depends on people doing things. We can all sit on our couch and watch the ministry of newspeak broadcasts or we can be in the streets. Our leaders are humans and we can't expect them to act in a way that endangers themselves without visible support. But it actually takes a heck of a lot to kill a country. We aren't anywhere near that point yet. Get mad, get in the streets.
Man that read is some high grade level Hopium of the best quality dang if only the DNC would do half of this instead of rolling and die with a billionaire cock in the mouth.
The flaw with this scenario is that it assumes Trump would try to simply cancel the elections. Instead, he would be more likely to regulate them in a way that makes unseating him impossible. For example, federal regulations might be implemented that required states to use voting machines, voting machines that are produced by corrupted companies. He just straight up steals the election through rigged voting machines. Or they mess with registrations and voter purges to a level more than the amount that already got Trump elected this time. See the SAVE Act..
Or alternatively, the election systems themselves will be unaffected. However, the candidates will be carefully managed. Any Democratic candidate that would present a significant threat to MAGA will be arrested on trumped-up charges. The courts will miraculously cease to give the Democratic candidate the same leeway they did to Trump when they "didn't want to interfere with the election." Or he'll manipulate the Democratic elites so much that they end up electing someone even more conservative. They end up running Ted Cruz or something insane like that.
Remember, even the citizens of the Soviet Union got to have elections.
He can certainly try, but he can't pass laws about elections without Congress, which brings the filibuster into play.
Arresting the party leaders of the opposition also generally doesn't work if you do it more than once or the situation is already very politicized.
At the end of the day it's going to require us to be in the streets no matter what he tries. Our state leaders need to see that they have support to stand up to Trump.
The problem that I keep seeing here is people saying "well, he can't do that."
Stop that. He can do it because nobody's going to stop him. I mean, you surely don't expect that little shit Mike Johnson to tell Daddy Trump no. The constitution itself isn't going to rise up out of its case like Godzilla and crush him. The judiciary isn't going to come and enforce their decision in person. That just leaves the military. They're either going to coup him, or not, and I'm expecting the latter case.
That's not what I'm saying. The entire point here is that he does not have the physical power to interfere in state elections without an act of Congress. The states would arrest any federal agents trying to do so. This isn't a "gentleman's agreement" that nobody is enforcing.
Does he not have a way to replace the state agents with ones that will do his bidding?
No, in the USA States have a limited form of sovereignty. They elect their own officials and hold all powers not expressly given to the Federal Government. So while the President has some law enforcement agents, most of them are actually employed by the State Governors and Counties/Cities. The Governors have a Secretary of State that is also elected who are responsible for running all elections in the state.
So if Trump tried to make an Executive Order that only Republicans could vote, (this is meant to be an extreme example, it would backfire hilariously in real life), the states could legally ignore it. However if Congress passed that as a law and the Supreme Court upheld it then the states would be legally bound to prevent anyone not registered as a Republican from voting for federal offices.
The thing is the Republicans don't have enough of a majority to just pass any law they want. So it's very unlikely there will be an extreme voting law in the next 2 years. So if federal agents showed up trying to enforce an Executive Order from Trump it is highly likely they would be arrested by the state or city police for interfering in voting.
The way authoritarians have done this before is arrest enough of opposition party members. Other ways of blocking members of Congress to show up for a vote could be travel restrictions due to a state of emergency because of a terror attack for example. You can combine this with other methods.
You might have 5 arrested on made up charges, 4 can't leave their home because of protestors blocking them, 3 are blackmailed, 2 are bribed to stay away, 1 is murdered. This could even start with one or two members of congress getting murdered. Then a state of emergency is called including. Tragically not all members can make it in time to vote in the emergency session.
Trump doesn't need to succeed in all states with this or even send in federal agents. There are enough state governments run by MAGAs, who will fall in line.
Things don't need to be properly done. Some chaos as cover and the slightest plausible deniability is enough.
So you end up with some kind of election reform, that's not accepted by all states. This means the president can declare a further emergency and suspend elections until further notice. Alternatively only elections run according to the new rules are accepted by the federal government. Non compliant states can hold elections, but they will be declared invalid by the supreme court.
I really only lurk on Lemmy, but I felt the need to comment. Thank you for writing this. I've been stressed out since the EO was announced. I felt like we were doomed, but this gives me some hope. Even if this doesn't happen, I feel better knowing there is still a way to possibly course correct.
This is actually one of the more pessimistic courses. It's probable that Trump gets enough push back that his legacy consists of massively handicapping the civil service, screwing up the economy and our alliances, and then peacefully transferring power to a democratic party president.
One of the other things we need to do is seriously organize to support a more left candidate in the 2028 primaries. Part of this shock and awe is meant to make us give up, not only resisting Trump but also in organizing within the Democratic party.
Americans need to start organizing the network for a general strike and start writing a new constitution.
A new constitution is a really bad idea until we can do a lot more organizing. Conservatives have been practicing for a convention for at least 20 years. If we called one right now they'd steamroll the liberals and we'd have an actual king again.
Thank you for this. It's so easy to feel hopeless in the face of everything that's happening, which is exactly what they want.
Yeah, there's still quite a few good paths here. I can't guarantee we do what's needed but I can show how if we demand it from our leaders and publicly support them it becomes really hard for Trump and friends to reach their goals.
Intensionally, the USA is going to lose its status as a hyperpower. Europe is going to decouple from American defense policy to the point where I can see American military bases close in Europe. An anti-Chinese military alliance will function with or without the USA anchored by India and Japan, but I see that force yielding some territory to China in the near term. There will probably be an increase in the number of wars in general as regions go into conflict without an American threat to maintain borders. Nothing the USA does is likely going to fix this.
Domestically, the administration is the greatest threat to the republic since the Civil War. If Trump is able to be pushed out in the future, there is going to need to be a major re-evaluation of how the American federal government works. This is going to require constitutional changes and the removal of major powers that the President has collected as the federal government grew.
When it's all done and dusted, I hope it's the beginning of the end for corporate capitalism as we know it. Allowing them to become that big and powerful through corruption that they literally think that they can control the world, is insane.
This is happening because of greed.
Honestly democrats have been spouting off about how dangerous republicans are but when push comes to shove they serve up the same bills but somehow even worse and them drink tea with the fascists.
The dems better get real fuckin lefty real quick if they ever want to win an election again. But they wontt, they'll just emulate dump even more like they did with Reagan.
At the current trajectory, it be at best a renewed appreciation for how good things used to be.
/r Collapse warned us...
Okay but you do remember we were here before and the national guard and law enforcement extremely made it very clear who's side they were on... right?
The fact thats only as far back as you went is sorta my point.
Yall dont remember before that, when Trump last was president as well, the crowds getting kettlepotted and gassed out, the peaceful crowds getting dispersed just so trump could take a photo op?
What does that have to do with my original statement.
I feel like Trump could just make up any half assed excuse for why the voting stations need to be shut down though and they'd buy it.
Like it Trump says it, it is rule of law to them
Hmmm, it seems the modern way for autocracies to deal with elections is to control the information space. I don't see election being called off, but major social media platforms boosting one side while attenuating the other goes a long way. We know Musk is all in on this and the other big players like Zuckerberg & Co seem all too happy to oblige. Tiktok is an open ended question at this point.
No, I don't think so. Large portions of government like the CDC, USAID, FEMA and the IRS will take 20 years to rebuild, but the dialed in states like the West Coast will probably be largely fine. It's just such an unnecessary waste of time, resources, and human lives.
Apparently some of us don't remember our values unless they get their mouth curbstomped every 70 years and remember some serious pain and suffering. Then the majority of people start voting for people that weren't dropped as babies and we will go back to a democracy again. Fuckin idiots.
In the meantime, enjoy the unencumbered spread of diseases like measles and HIV, preventable economic meltdowns from disassembling shit like the Fed, SEC and IRS and infrastructure stagnation due to gutting tax infrastructure and the firing of educated and experienced public workers that keep out road, bridges and internet working to say nothing of shit like sewers, water, power, rail, aviation, etc.
And just think, all of this rebuilding could have been prevented with one single vote for a normal candidate. We could have had 20 years of relative progress under our belt instead. 😊
It's never over.
Even the worst dictatorship can collapse. They get internally couped until the dictator learns to purge anyone capable of challenging them, then human mortality fixes that dictator and the government collapses
It's not good though. The best time to fix it was ages ago before Reagan. The second best time is right now before the police state is firmly in place
Going from decline to fall. To be fair it took Rome 200 years or so I'm sure the US will limp on for a while yet. But it won't ever be what it was again.
The "limping on" has been the past 40 years already. Ever since Neoliberalism became the dominant economic ideology and fully embraced by both mayor parties.
Capitalism declines into Fascism. The current administration is not the root cause of the US problems. It is a symptom that is accelerating the decline into Fascism. But the ground work was laid many years ago and defended ever since. We see a similar trend in many other countries that adopted the US Neoliberalism to various extends.
The Soviet Union as a credible major adversary meant the US couldn't drop the ball too much. China is only now becoming a serious rival. Russia is totally changed player that sneaked up on the west. In the decades in between the US could fumble, drop, and lose the ball without much immediate consequence.
Yes.
In the short term not much will change and no one will react. By the time they want to react, they'll play into a fascist crackdown.
Look into the Business Plot. This is basically the result of a century of planning between business interests and religious fanatics with too much money.
As long as capitalism is propagandized as a good thing, civilization will continue to face this issue of the few exploiting the many.
Do you believe every human deserves the same rights and dignities? It's not possible to make a cell phone without relying on slave labor in the supply chains.
Profit is unpaid labor. As long as we normalize giving at the profits to those that already have everything, civilisations will continue to implode until one makes a mistake of such hubris everyone dies. Look at PFAS. One day we will unleash something we can't contain and we'll be dead before we can detect it or treat it.
Our species simply will not survive because we're too eager to shit where we sleep just so we don't have to walk all the way to the bathroom.
Centuries to build
Weeks to destroy.
Good luck.
To be fair, decades to destroy. This has been slowly culminating since before I was even born. Maybe before my parents were born.
Slavery is legal in prisons, we built a circus tent.
Clown country
I heard there was a mentor coming to fix this soon....sorry, I apologize. I mean to say Meteor. Chances of landing up my own ass have increased once more. I probably won't feel it so I'm not too worried about it.
In a sense it is done. That sense is being a beacon of progress. All presidents before Trump understood the relationship America had with the world as being a world power. While there always was a conservative voice in America, conservative presidents were always able to mask self interest under the flag of progress, bringing democracy, peace and free markets. Now ultraconservative fascist are no longer masking, Trump and Musk are literally not smart enough to understand. The USA played a very important role in the world order and the current administration is basically giving that up.
Trump and Musk, because they really aren't smart (i can't stress this enough, they lack the mental capacity), are not considering the value of that role, the services the US provides. They only think about the value of things and of money. More rockets, tarifs on goods, expenditure... And see these as things along which progress is measured.
While that does, to a small extent, captures progress. It forgets the foundations of progress, peace, education, financial security, social cohesion, to name a few. Sorry, i say forget... But really what i should be saying is dismantling. They are also clueless about the value of services and the service economy. Which is, or has become, another measure of progress.
Anyway the point is, the US can't maintain their position in the world order. They can't maintain a government that understands their responsibility in that order. They abandoned their classic role without providing the world with a new/better one.
The US has been degraded to a trade partner.
It won’t end without armed conflict
Fascists don’t understand anything else
It's telling that nowhere in this thread there's mention of the US demolishing it's relationship with its most important ally, Europe.
The US is a lost cause, nationally and globally. It might save it's state, but repairing a (already wobbly) international reputation will take decades.
Yes, and we knew this would be the outcome the second he won the election. I'm staying in the U.S. because my life is worthless anyway and I'd prefer death in glorious revolution than survival, but anyone who values their life should have started their plans to leave in August 2024 when it became obvious he was going to sieze control.
Unless you get good with a sniper rifle its going to stay screwed for ever. Or if you actually have the gall to try to annex one of your neighbours. Then we'll take care of your problem for you.
So, in the best case scenario, the US as we know it is done and, after a hard fall and hitting rock bottom, will emerge as a country that is less of a capitalist hellhole. Ideally, in the process, other countries will find more independence from the USA, be it trade wise or security wise.
The more realistic scenario is that everything will stay the same/similar and just get slightly worse all the time but every other country will still suck up to the USA and everything gets a little worse. Oh yeah and climate change will fuck everyone up the ass.
The worst case scenario, I would argue, is that this ends in the destruction of the world via nuclear war within less than an hour. This is what I am scared of the most.
None of this is good, and it's going to cause a lot of big problems across just about everything but, theoretically at least, none of it is unsalvageable.
Remember that elections are run by the states, not the federal government.
So unless you live in one of the most hardcore Trump-sucking red states, you likely will be able to vote in 2026 and 2028, your vote will probably be fairly counted, and you will be able to determine not just the makeup of Congress 2 years from now, but also the types of people that we send to represent our interests and fight back against Trump.
Of course, Trump is wasting no time grabbing power, but it still remains to be seen whether or not Congress and the Supreme Court will surrender their power enough for him to get away with it. As much as the massive cucked-out bitches in Congress and SCOTUS pretend they love Trump, they actually hate his guts and are just as hungry for their own power as he is for his.
Finally there is the possibility of a genuine constitutional crisis in which Trump rejects the concept of shared power by coequal branches of government, in which case the entire constitution is rendered null and void and the USA completely ceases to exist as a federal entity and the union breaks down.
This would probably lead to a civil war, in which case the side that wins is the one that has the best logistics and strategy. I'm confident that the blue states, especially in an alliance with Canada and Mexico, would have no problem beating the land-locked redneck morons in flyover country. All that would be required is to bring the fight to the Southern coastal areas. They'd be totally surrounded and blocked in from trade on every side.
We're cooked fam. Can't wait for the reboot.
Whether it's now or later, life has to get a lot worse before it gets better. People will have to feel a lot more pain than they're feeling now before they do more than bitch and moan online.
Yes but we should still make them pay for every inch they take.
We're on the way down. The Right in this country (well, really, everywhere, but it's more maniacal here) are growing more unhinged. The Dems keep pulling to the right as a result (since at least the 80s). The overtone window keeps shifting. We're absolutely fucked.
William F Buckley was a major source of inspiration for the Right for decades. I recently watched his debate with James Baldwin at Cambridge in 1965. He argued racist points about Black single moms, but he tried to sound compassionate and denounced racism. He hid his racism in plain sight but sounded educated. There's nothing like that now. "They're eating the dogs."
Kamala Harris and Biden before her ran on the most liberal platform in history
Bernie was more liberal, FDR ran and won 3 times on a more liberal platform.
How did FDR feel about gay rights? Economically he was to the left but socially he was way to the right. Sanders, sure, but I meant in a general election.
He wasn't against gay rights, would probably be the best description. He specifically avoided the topic while campaigning in order to avoid his earlier controversy entrapping men from the Navy by sending men out to have sex with them. Not because he hated gays, he was just given a job, and wasn't against over doing it. Eleanor took a lesbian lover later on, and he hired a known gay man to serve in his cabinet. For the time, that's about as progressive as it gets. In modern times, Gore was to the left of Obama and Biden socially.
X
Most neoliberal
Genocide is a liberal position? Now you tell me?
100% cooked bruh. Get the fuck out while you can if you here.
My partner and I are already brainstorming what countries we would go to if in the future shit really hits the fan. I mean just as a hypothetical. Mexico's up there. We could easily pick up and go, trouble is it'd be harder to get the rest of our family on board.
Mexico is so fucking great bruh. Amazing culture and people. All the basic amenities.
Ditto. Wouldn't be this big culture shock. You could just drive there, don't gotta mess with flying. If you can get to Mexico, you can fly out anywhere else if you'd like. And like a lot of people, we already know basic Spanish from school. Wouldn't be hard to pick up the rest. xD
I mean you can still go to Walmart and get tacos
I'm not in the USA, but I have friends that lives there and in Canada. I'm worried for them.
its been screwed since OBAMA was president, conservatives including poc cant get over the fact they had a half-AA as a president. ever since putin and the gop have been riding on racism and sexism as thier key election goals, and only recently anti-lgbtq+
We are about to become a cautionary tale other countries use to warn eachother not to go too hard into capitalism
I believe the US is a failed state. trump just decided that himself and his AG are the only people who can decide which laws apply to the executive, and ordered the termination of all remaining Biden era US Attorneys. I know we've been saying this a lot lately, but it feels like a mask off moment.
We been screwed for decades; all the minor plot threads, foreshadowing, and chekhov's implements are all just coalescing at the same time for one last grand finale.
Yes. How much and for how long is the real questions, luckily I live in CA and if the country dissolves we'll just do everything ourselves. In fact, We'll be better off as we provide 60% of the US tax revenue, and we get noting close to that in return.
There is saying things, there is not doing things, and there is doing things.
Trump could say: "What if there was one day where there was no laws and people could just do anything, like the purge..." and... oh, he did say that during his first term. And democracy still survived. Saying things just make people loose respect for America. It is why Obama got the Nobel peace prize. Cause he stopped saying the shit that Bush was saying.
What people should be worried about is actions and inactions. It takes competency to do things. The more fascist a thing Trump wants to do, the more competent people leave and the less likely it is to be done. The true problem is it takes no level of competency to not do a thing.
So Trump's end game is "Ask not what your country can do for you ... because it can no longer do that."
Probably.
I'm really hoping that Churchill's quote about Americans doing the right thing is evergreen, because this first month (!!!!) of Trump has been A LOT.
I feel like we're really close to having tried every alternative by now, right?...right?
Yes and and beyond screwed.
Not necessarily.
There are still legal routes, the chances of congress not laying down on the job, etc.
Then, you've got the first line of citizen action, protests and non violent direct action combined with people helping each other until the legal stuff has a chance to work.
Beyond that, right now, across the country, small groups are trying to organize. Most of them as a form of more assertive resistance and/or a safety net for trans people, immigrants, and other targets of the current administration.
There are also smaller groups than that organizing for the possibility of having to fight.
That does include people just as batshit as the more rabid right wing, but most of them are less eager than the crazies to get involved in an asymmetric civil war. So they aren't very visible.
But there are people working at all levels to resist and turn things around.
The way out is for everyone that can to be ready. To take risks to protect each other, and to do what they can when they can.
I joined Lemmy today, and while reading the TOS I had a sigh of relief when I got to the end and the US was not on the list of countries it follows the laws of. Instead it's the three countries at the top of my wishlist of places I'd like to flee to to avoid being sent to a camp, even! Well, Finland has the same problem Canada has of having one of the worst neighbors in the world right now, but Germany and the Netherlands are great options. Rule 1 would have only weeks, maybe months, to live before Elon Musk ordered discrimination against minorities to be mandatory instead of prohibited if Lemmy was following the laws of the dying country I live in. Well, "laws". We don't really have laws anymore, it's all royal decrees now. Everybody is currently holding their breath on whether they've consolidated dictatorial power well enough to enforce them.
More and more every day...
The constitution was created for the sole purpose of containing a tyrant and mitigating any damage they could do.
Its never been tested on a real tyrant before though, so I guess we'll see how well it accomplishes that. It uh, isnt looking too great though.
It might take a long time to fix, but someday we will recover.
I think the US is over. There will be something else for sure, but i don't know if the US is salvageable
I think you need some perspective. The situation is bad and seems like foreshadowing of worse things to come. However, we're a pretty far distance from states pulling away or civil war breaking out.
Um, not so much. California is going to have a vote on state independence on the next ballot. I can see Texas following suit.
And does anyone actually think those have a chance of passing right now?
There's always been talk of succession here and there, but we just aren't at the point of the US actually breaking up.
I mean I don't think most people are for state independence now, but the idea is gaining legitimacy. There's just no reason to stick with a federal government that will take your taxes and then give you nothing.
Yeah we aren't anywhere close to the point of states breaking out of the union. Some people will call for it, maybe even a lot. But as soon as they realize what is required that shit will stop immediately. California would quite literally need to go to war with the union to gain that independence regardless of what they voted. So not only would they need to actually vote for it but then they'd have to be willing to go to war and kill and die for that separation and their independence.
As strong as people feel, we aren't even close to that point. Not to mention it would fail; none of the states currently have any hope of competing against the US military machine. Give us a couple hundred more years to really really deteriorate and siphon all value from the people and land and we may be there.
I dunno, the US military machine may not be that impressive for very long the way they're going
doubtful, the usa isnt to keen on balkanization.
There's more to it than that. I'm talking about a dictatorship, where trump flaunts the law, more than he already has.
If these things Trump is removing with presidential orders was so important, why the fuck didn't Congress make them laws while Democrats had a majority in the past twenty fucking years?
This shit is infuriating to me that we only blame one side for these issues.
Why do you think that would make any difference? Are you not seeing the trump administration straight up ignoring laws that are in place blocking a lot of their current behavior?
Fair point. But then if laws are meaningless if you happened to be wealthy or in a position of power, why is everyone in the Democratic Party essentially shrugging and doing literally nothing about this?
Because the Democratic party is, and always has been, a willing collaborator.
They have their petty squabbles, but they've always been on the same side in regards to making sure the wealthy and powerful stay that way, at all costs.
I agree. Even if the democrats were doomed to fail because of how the Republicans operate. But the democrats didn't even start the process.
At least be in record that a bill was put up and the Republicans voted it down. To not do anything was stupid. Maybe ya get lucky and get something passed.
"screwed" seems a little mild to describe it
It depends on the will and strength of mind of the populace. The politicians are laughing all the way to their Swiss bank accounts.
Yeah.
Nah, but it's going to be a long way back to 2015.
We've been set back to the 40s. Maybe by the next 40s
Make that 1840...
Unless there's a coup when the Supreme Court finds against Trump and he ignores them and Republicans keep Congress from holding him accountable the only way the Court will let them.
I mean in the sense that we have been going down since the millenium. I mean we really really rank at the bottom of industrialized nations for quality of life. The big question is if china or india can surpass us really. and by surpass I mean watch as we slow and eventually are behind them.
It depends on if Barron Trump is like his father or not.
Because that is who Trump has chosen to lead once Trump dies.
first time?
Nah it's gonna get looted and pillaged and generally go to shit but will be saved by the aheer economic power of being one of the few places left on earth with enough farmland to feed billions when the other breadbaskets start getting decimated by ecological collapse
As you failed to prevent fascism at the voting booth, you will have to learn how to stop it now. This is the situation the second amendment had been written for. After being abused to allow criminals and mentally retarded to get access to weapons they should never have, you can now put them to good use.
Although there's a lot of knee-jerk reaction in some circles, Trump issuing EOs that are illegal and unenforceable only go as far as all the other vitriol that slides it's way out of his mouth creases. Plenty of things he does are blocked by judges, including his demand that only him and his AG are allowed to interpret the law. It just doesn't work like that. Although the possibility of things being escalated and allowed through a compromised supreme Court still exists, it hasn't happened yet. I'm not giving into the mania while checks and balances still actually do exist.
Corporations dictating what people can do has been happening basically my whole life.
DOGE is another story. It's very bad, yeah, but I'm not sure how it affects me personally in my day-to-day.
It’s fucking toast
I would say so. The only question is whether the good guys win a civil war. My money is on 'yes', since Yarvin's Cabal is hellbent on exiling all of the competent people from their society, along with being jackasses who have alienated many peoples. It will be a bloody struggle, but I think that Dogey America will ultimately receive the Old Yeller treatment. I only hope that every member of Yarvin's Cabal are executed - Elon, Thiel, ect.
Let's not make the mistakes of the 1st Civil War, 1st Business Plot, and 2nd World War, where many high ranking members were permitted to escape justice.
Waiting for a repeat of Jan 6 from the other side, or a civil war, or the sovcits to take over, or all of the above, or some other unknown catastrophe.
Whatever disasters may or may not have come about due to “bad” presidents in the past will pale in comparison to the events of the next few years.
A lot of people are discussing the legal or revolutionary frameworks, but there’s a very human story to all of this. The government is run by people, and people are human. They make mistakes, backstab one another, get sick. They compete for different goals & subvert. It’s politics.
Morality is about respecting other moral agents, but it’s also about self-defeating principles. If you constantly lie, then there is no trust. Without trust, there’s room for speculation, rumor, & fear. Everyone on eggshells constantly. That’s partially why these fascist systems aren’t sustainable. However, as the world has become interconnected, so have the global elite. Fascism isn’t just here: it’s in a lot of places. There’s likely secret (and not so secret) actors pulling those strings, not to sound conspiratorial.
Every action has an equal and opposite reaction in physics. Like others have said, I’m not sure about my faith in the USA, as it is today: 50 states and some territories holding “together”. The culture and economy of the Northeast is vastly different than the Southeast. The USA absolutely had its hand in much of global politics over the last 100 years. Russia was the USSR in the 80s (~40 years ago); I think this is our “equal and opposite” moment of a world power fracturing. My expectation is the USA splits up, but I’m not sure what comes next. I don’t know if that’s “screwed”, but it’s not as it is today.
Honestly we were screwed long before now, but yes. Its going to be a slow decline into fascism until we collectively wise up. I do think there's a real possibility of that happening, but its going to take a lot of work.
So long as there is people living in a place, having kids, and trying to improve their lives, the places will remain. The government may change, social structure's get overhauled, but the same fact that people are having kids and building a life means those places are unlikely to go away. The old republic is dead. We have supreme court justices taking bribes then passing judgments saying they can. We have the position of President where anyone in it can legally say "I was doing it for my country the laws don't apply." And get away with it. The United States of America as a Democratic Republic, is over. But there still exists a United States of America that has transitioned to a Democratic Empire/kingdom. So to the question; "Is the USA screwed?" The simple answer is No. It will continue on so lobg as the population does. Is the Democratic Republic of the United States screwed? Bitch be dead, screw the corpse if you like.
Have you read about US History? I recommend looking at presidents Andrew Jackson, Woodrow Wilson, and Richard Nixon.
Screwed, and unfortunately screwing around too
It'll take decades to repair it
its like reagans term, but 100x worst, because they are being worked through with russia backing all these groups.
Historically, it has to get worse before it gets better. It's gonna suck for a while, but I have faith that humanity will come to it's senses when things start getting bad enough. I hope this whole mess will be the catalyst that leads to great change in humanity in the future.
Not yet, not necessarily. The further this goes, the closer they come to the point of no return.
Been screwed.
Chump and Elon just accelerated shit.
This was always gonna happen.
The average empire lasts 250 years, for the US that year is 2026. The US has been in a downward spiral for decades.
Screwed is always relative.
I'm hearing chat that immigrants from places like Turkey or India are going "oh yeah this is what it's like back home".
So it's possible it just goes full neoliberal (i.e. no consequences or regulations for the rich) and the division of wealth grows even further.
Provided he doesn't cause a war or some kind of other mass-death problem (chemical spills, reactor meltdown etc) it might just have a cost primarily in human suffering, as opposed to human life.
Not just them
What do you mean by "screwed"? I think the question needs to be more clearly defined before I can give an answer.
A lot of damage is going to be done. Things are going to get much worse before they get better. Some people are going to get killed.
But I don't think this is the literal apocalypse. Life will continue. It's going to be hard to rebuild and will take a long time, but we will rebuild as much as we can.
Magic 8 Ball says: Most Likely
I wont give a knee jerk response to it. a country the size, economy, and history of USA doesn't get done for by one President. While Muskrump will cause plenty of institutional damage and suffering on American and global populace, USA will come out stronger and better nation at the end of this (whenever this ends). Case in point, Germany before WWII and Germany after WWII
Not just the USA, their allies as well.
It's to the point i believe myself the second coming. Rapture always perplexed me.
My brother sent this to me the other day and I gave it a watch. It feels pretty unbiased (although I'm uneducated), and seems to have a more macro, zoomed-out view of America and just nations on the whole. I thought it was pretty interesting and it helped to put some things in perspective.
it is so donaldover 😔
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0ndPOs8Q1c
What does "done" mean to you, and how possibly can it be final?
God I hope so
All states should leave the us now ASAP.
Except maybe New York and Florida, because they have given him shelter.
No. It's going to get worse for a while, maybe forever, but it won't ever collapse until outside forces put boots on the ground. The thing about the USA is that it's the United States, not singular state, so even if the Federal Entity is in turmoil or even collapses: the USA will continue operating at limited capacity.
The day that the USA is done will be the beginning of the third great war.
Yes and there was nothing really worth saving. Throw it all away and start over. It's fine.
Duh.
Next question.
Define done? Even if the government gets completely dismantled in the short term, who knows what will happen in 10 years time. It will definitely take longer than that to rebuild our position of authority and influence in the global stage, if we ever achieve that, but it's definitely doable in our lifetimes.
Yeah, good luck with that.
We don't want your "authority and influence" any more. The US has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that they cannot be trusted with the power they've got.
Nope. It would take 20 years to rebuild the soft power, connections and goodwill the US has now lost.
But in 20 years, China will have taken over the role the US used to have on the world stage.
They aren't even the less moral option anymore.
Never were.
Communist revolution
what do you mean "done"? the answer is obviously no, but i want to know more specifically what your question is. why was this even posted? where is your house
Sounds like USA authorities are stronger than ever. People have been screwed for a while.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010s_global_surveillance_disclosures
this was under obama
If we don’t get a handle on the debt it will be like Greece 2.0
God I hope so. I have absolutely no reason to keep surviving, I hate being alive, I hate that any of you are alive, let's get the nukes out and boil the fucking oceans.
Organic chemistry was a mistake, one we have the arsenal to correct. Push the whopper button.
How many realize Doge was originally a misspelling of Dodge, used to describe scams and confidence games?
Lol... friend, take the shit outta your head and heart.
They want you to feel helpless/hopeless. Don't. Don't let them win. Be positive, show love, and feel love.
Right now, this is what the left wants. They WANT you to be helpless/hopeless. You're a lot easier to control that way.
Everything is fine (sorta). Ok, maybe not, but don't freak out.
Trump won't do everything right, but he's taking an axe to the federal government, and that is always a good thing.
Screw the feds. Take down the feds. (Now I'm on a list)
We got all this dooming 8 years ago as well. We were fine then, we will be fine now.
They literally attempted a coup when they lost the election, so no, everything was not "fine".
The precious norms!
least incoherent shitlib
False.
The people that define these things disagree with you: https://clinecenter.illinois.edu/coup-detat-project/statement_dec.15.2022
That's not webster's dictionary. Here, let me link it. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/coup And if you're feeling lazy, here's the definition: 1 : a sudden decisive exercise of force in politics and especially the violent overthrow or alteration of an existing government by a small group : coup d'état
Since Trump didn't attempt to overthrow anything, and he certainly didn't use force, he didn't attempt a coup.
Glad we got that all cleared
Haha yeah. Websters dictionary is the sole arbiter of political upheaval and is the singular source of authority on all events, past and present.
Its not like there could possibly be any grey zone on what is or is not a coup. That would require critical thinking and an organization that catalogs and studies such events. That would be ridiculous! Oh wait
We were not fine then and neither are we now
They didn't have a Project 2017 then. The situation is very different.
From the outside looking in, I have to say that the pace of things this time around is pretty alarming.
They absolutely did have all those goals then
Upvoted for the optimism. Let's hope you're right.
yes the country is going to cease to exit tomorrow. i know this is "no stupid questions" but damn dude
There are some seeds of hopefulness this week.
Freedom dividends is answer to everything. Disempowers government discretion, empowers people. Sales taxes and carbon taxes directly funding dividends becomes progressive taxes. Transferring "conditional poverty welfare" to dividends is path to eliminating homelessness, and not having a 50% clawback on work income that is a huge work disincentive.
Progressive versions of UBI/freedom dividends is just a higher amount with higher taxes. But a conservative version that still tries to maintain (as close as legally allowed systemic) slavery, is still a path to a long term sustainable fix for country.
Facts genuinely support that US/NATO controlled/manipulated Ukraine into provoking war on Russia. By far the most demonic war the US has ever started, with specific objective of diminishing Russia to the last Ukrainian. That Blackrock can get cheap land and resources in the end does not help Americans. Nothing about this war helps world. Climate sustainability cannot be a 2nd priority to war, and oil industry profits, and forcing massive diesel use and refinery terrorism to operate the war. Pure demonic hatred/mission to destroy/destabilize Russia is not going to get it to cooperate on energy transition. Before Biden, they were cooperating with Europe to mutual benefit.
Massive war spending increases from NATO to match forced Russian/China production increases is not path to human sustainability, or even a path to likely victory over Russia/China. Getting the DNC to force us into candidacy of the most republican/neocon/zionist candidate possible makes all progressive policies impossible due to lower priority. Both a small UBI, and war de-escalation, means having a progressive alternative have a chance, instead of appealing to the Dick/Liz Cheney wing of the democratic party.
No. In fact it's opposite. Doge is a good thing. Trump is not an actual fascist despite claims to the contrary, wasteful institutions are being curtailed, laws are being enforced.
The only real issue is that journalists are a bunch of rage baiting hacks, and y'all eat up it like it's Thanksgiving dinner.
The only thing I'm actually worried about is when the Democrats take back power, if they'll turn into tyrants. But I don't think that's particularly likely either.
So many words to say you’re dumb
It's Kaboom. It really only takes two words and a symbol to figure that out: "Kaboom", an "@", and the "Reddthat" instance.
That's mean to the red that admins, they're nice people!
Trump is a textbook fascist.
What more do you need?