You should try dog if you get the chance, Elwood dog farm has a low impact factory farm where you can buy Labrador cuts and some gamier breeds if they're in stock.
My concern with eating dogs and cats (which I have) is how they were fed. There isn't a lot of health safety concern with those kinds of underground meat sources can sometimes feed dead livestock back to the populace and that can cause all numbers of prion and parasitic concerns.
Great, so we agree no animals are ethically off limits to kill and consume. How about... Some of the more simple minded human populace? Like, if through IQ testing we find the bottom 5% of humans, and (without eating brain and spine, avoiding prion diseases) feed them to the masses? They're probably not terribly much smarter than dogs, and they could help curb food shortages. Or are humans off limits?
I'm not suggesting that animal eating leads to cannibalism, which WOULD be a slippery slope.
I'm suggesting that if meat eaters are okay with killing and eating animals, why not the human animal? I probe because the line drawn in the sand is unclear with meat eaters.
Also, humans are animals. This is primary school stuff here.
What separates eating animals from eating people for you?
Right, but what's inherently wrong with eating your own species? I mean, I know, I think any sentient life shouldn't be killed for my pleasure. But with your logic that some species are okay to kill and eat, and others aren't, I'm wanting to know why those others aren't.
Ignoring "societal norms", as they've been used to commit genocide, slavery, and all manner of atrocities - why is cannibalism logically, in your opinion, bad?
do you trust the processing facilities for the underground dogmeat industry to even come close to choosing safety over profit in shaving that meat down as close to cartilage as possible?
Oh we're talking about eating humans now, we're well past dogs as it seems like a fair few people here would be okay with factory farming them.
Personally, my ethics are simple and easily define - if it displays sentience, I won't eat it. It's unethical to kill and eat something that feels pain. I'm more interested in your more nebulous ethics, where some species are okay to eat, some not
It sounds like you're okay with eating dogs, which id argue is demonstrably disgusting, but in your opinion, is it okay to rear, kill and then eat humans?
Only if you eat the brain or spinal column, which I was careful to add. Otherwise the risks are as manageable as with cow meat, i.e., parasites and bacteria.
Given that you're okay with eating cats and dogs, and now simple-minded humans, what's to stop me from killing and eating you? I mean, all anyone needs to assert is that they're mentally superior to their food, what's off the table for you?
I'm sure mass scale cannibalism might actually be as good for the environment as a plant based diet. Maybe you're on to something. We'd be so morally consistent!
go ahead a good third of my country thinks i shouldn't exist anyway and im sick of fighting it, im sure i taste good too
you keep trying to push people into corners about this when most ppl who eat meat do it simply because it tastes good, has good nutritional value, and is easily accessible. for my two cents in w serious manor, the meat industry is fucked up and should be regulated, since you didn't take my initial comment as the shitpost it is
there are moral concerns but for most people (majority will never even know what lemmy is) simply don't care and will never care, because meat tastes good
Pushing people into corners is what good debate is about. If people find their refutations are weak enough to have them back into a corner, then they should abandon that argument.
I grew up on a farm in the south of New Zealand. My brothers were dairy farmers, my front yard was cattle, I was a staunch anti-vegan who swore he'd never eat vegetarian as long as he lived.
I will never care because meat tastes good. Except now I do.
There is no level of regulation that permits - in good moral conscience - the subjugation and slaughter of animals for our pleasure.
Meat is only easily accessible because it is heavily subsidized by the government. A vegan diet is nearly always cheaper - consider that most developing nations eat vegan/vegetarian because of this.
There's a short book I read that absolutely convinced me of veganism called "This is Vegan Propaganda and Other Lies The Meat Industry Tells You". I've had 5 people read it, and ALL FIVE have gone vegan. It's straight up insane how brutal a grip the meat industry has on people, through lobbying, ad campaigns, purposeful obfuscation of the industry. Bananas!
You can try some in Switzerland. While you can't sell the meat, slaughtering and eating it is legal. There is farms where you can "make a donation" and they'll invite you to dinner.
I mean I could but I have a nearly limitless supply of rabbits in my yard. Their fur makes great gifts. My plants love the compost I get from everything else. As a bonus the blood compost deters rabbits from eating my cabbage.
Funny thing, I can't seem to find any type of vegan certification that is concerned with the use of animal byproducts or waste in fertilizer. A few specifically say they do not check fertilizer.
Actually a lot of organic farms rely on blood and bone meal, manure and fish emulsion fertilizers. They're inexpensive as they're byproducts of other industries and are very good for plants.
When I worked in an organic greenhouse I often wondered about how vegans would feel about farmers using animal based fertilizers. We definitely told people what we used, as we sold those products, but no one ever said anything about it.
I guess vegans can't control that so maybe it's a nonissue unless they grow their own food and use seaweed based fertilizer(more expensive) instead?
Does that work long term on a commercial scale without egg shells/ bone meal? Afaik, there needs to be an additional source of calcium, but that could of course also supplement crop rotation/fallowing.
Though tbf, limestone is very soft and I could see supplementing with ground limestone.
Don't let perfection be the enemy of good. If everyone stopped eating animals, there'd be no surplus of blood and bone for fertilisers, and other plant based by-products would fill the space.
As for the rabbits, I actually have a small Australian shepherd that runs through my lawn chasing the wallabies that meander by, I've been meaning to trap it and humanely slaughter it, the blue coat would make a great gift! And if the owner comes by looking for Bella, I could trap him and humanely slaughter him too. He looks a bit simple, so it seems ethical to me? He'd make good compost, that's for true.
Gamey unless reared correctly. Better to eat pet dogs as the meat generally tastes juicier. It can sometimes be unpleasant bolting them before slitting their throats after they've lived inside for so long, but knowing they lived a happy life free of predators, and didn't die of old age (try to kill before they become yearlings) makes it feel right.
What? Try harder to what?
Don't defend yourself in court hahahaha.
"Does the defense have any closing statements?"
"Uh yes your honour. Ahem. leans into mic t-try harder"
Apologies but this is just assumptions. Pet meat isn't good quality. Your average commercial pet food uses hydrogenated oils for shelf longevity and that causes a very bitter flavor.
farm raised dog is usually fed on grain and suet or tallow, and avoids this problem.
I mean, people hardly ever eat carnivores. Even pigs, which are omnivores, are 90% of the time herbivores. I don't even eat meat, but this argument never made sense to me. Yes, there are countries where people eat dogs, but that doesn't mean dogs and cats are equivalent to cattle. You can make an argument for horses though.
The argument works for a Western audience that are okay with killing and eat some animals, but find it abhorrent to eat others.
Most people don't like the idea of dogs in pain, and if we did rear dogs like we do pigs, there would be huge public outcry.
And sure, you get Redditors and Lemmy-ites who go "Oh ho i'd eat dog!", but they mean they'd try the meat once at a market, to maintain moral consistency. The truth is they'd be just as horrified if they saw dogs yelping in factory farmed cages, like we treat chickens.
But there's no reason to treat some animals one way, some another. They all feel pain, they all feel misery, they all call for their children once they've been culled. It's objectively immoral to eat meat when not for necessity.
Edit: sorry that was a bit snarky. I don't think you're completely off the mark but I would think an animal needs at least a nervous system to experience pain, so there are categories to consider and it may be morally virtuous to abstain from eating some animals but not necessarily immoral, and we should be careful to anthropomorphize other animal emotional states.
So fish have nociceptors, and a brain that connects to them, and they avoid painful stimuli. They have analgesic response systems in their brain to dull painful stimuli.
Even the most cautious interpetation of misery would include pain, so I would not kill and eat it.
Fish display sentience, therefore it is immoral to kill them for pleasure.
Maybe I'm off on this but suffering/misery would include pain + the emotional state of unhappiness or we would just use pain for both? Avoiding painful stimuli doesn't tell me about their emotional state or cognitive awareness of the pain, just an awareness of the stimuli.
No serious study suggests plants feel pain. They do not have a brain or central nervous system. At most, they respond to stimuli.
Many more plants "die" for animal feeding than with a vegan diet.
If you're worried about grass pain, you should focus more on the animals that DO have nociceptors, central nervous systems and brains, and the ability to feel fear that you subject them too, purely for taste preference.
I have no intent to deceive. There's a moral inconsistency amongst meat eaters. Pigs are okay, dogs are not. Why?
"Oh, because we like dogs"
Does that mean I can eat any sentient thing I dislike?
"Well, no, dogs are intelligent!"
Pigs are smarter than most breeds of dog, and have equal capabilities for emotion.
There is no logical argument against veganism in western society. Literally none. Meat eaters collectively breed and kill literally billions of animals per year, destroying the planet, because it's yummy. Meat eaters have essentially caused swine flu, bird flu, ebola, corona virus, just for the taste of meat. Meat eaters are causing treatment resistant bacteria by abusing antibiotics on high intensity farming, all for meat. That's crazy.
There's a lot of awful things in culture. It was culturally acceptable to slap a women on the bottom for a good job.
Your argument is "ah well".
That's not a reasonable defense for your objectively immoral actions. You are causing the suffering of sentient life for taste, that makes you immoral. Not to mention the horrible effect your diet has on the planet.
It doesn't help that the vegans are right. The meat industry is a nightmare, terrible for the environment, and pretty bad for our health.
It's insane that most Americans eat meat every day.
If I could put 100% tax on meat tomorrow I would, but that's political suicide, so it'll never happen. It'd be easier to adjust than you think. There are plenty of delicious vegetarian options, and it'd be a lot easier to choose those if they were more common.
I eat meat because it's culturally acceptable, delicious, ubiquitous, and I don't believe I can make a noticeable difference. But that doesn't mean I think it's right.
I don’t believe I can make a noticeable difference.
Not eating meat won't change the systemic problems but it will mean fewer animals will be subject to the industry. Over the course of a lifetime, the number of animals you can save adds up.
Also it's a good habit to transfer thoughts and beliefs into actions.
What bizarre logic, what thorough lack of object permanence.
Just because meat eating outpaces veganism doesn't mean vegans haven't reduced the consumption of meat?
I don't even think you know what you're saying now. If the whole world went vegan today, there'd be no meat animal slaughter. YOU are the cause of this problem.
"Oh world hunger is getting worse, I better stop my charity donations!"
"Oh greenhouse gas emissions are on the rise, might as well go back to oil and gas!"
Like, you realise how foolish that argument is, right?
I actually respect vegans that are vegan to prevent the suffering of animals.
I get it. Grew up farming. Chicken houses are an industrial horror machine.
We've recently bought a play farm and hope to raise or hunt all our meat. Only the slaughter and butchering of steers will be outsourced. Takes some serious equipment to handle an animal that large.
I'm an omnivore by evolution and enjoy meat and hunting. I'm always a little sad when I kill something, however. I figure that sadness means I'm human and is a good thing. When I eat meat from something I killed, it means more. There is a lot of respect involved in it as well something like religion.
If more people had to kill their meat, we would probably live in a very different world and there would be a lot more vegans.
If more people had to kill their meat, we would probably live in a very different world and there would be a lot more vegans.
I agree with your overall post, but you have the conclusion backwards.
The closer you are to hunting or slaughtering the more it's just a normal part of life. I've never met a vegan when I grew up in a rural area around farms, only after I moved to the city and it's almost exclusivly people that grew up in the city.
Well, I wouldn't say vegans are common anywhere (where I've lived). It's like 1-2% of the population.
And while my point indeed was totally anecdotal, it goes beyond just knowing people. There are other hints. I still often visit family in my childhood home area and even today you can notice a different in marketing. Restaurants there often don't even mark meals as vegan on the menu, while restaurants in big cities often have an entire section for vegan meals.
Also supermarkets specialising on bio food and such (our equivilant of like wholefoods) aren't present at all. You'd have to drive like 30km to get to one. Also in regular supermarkets meat replacement options are either not availible or poorly stocked.
So I'm not sure if it's a result or a cause, but I'd say it's much harder to be vegan in a rural area, just from a logistical standpoint. And you get a lot more local farmers markets, so you also have access to fresh and relativly cheap meat.
I've tried to search for some statistics about the distribution of vegans in urban and rural areas, but didn't find anything useful. I did find some quora and reddit threads with quite a few replies of people that have similar expirences to mine.
Yeah, you're right it's a different thing to doing it in cities, cooking is important. In my experience, I have lots of vegan rural friends however that's due to my social circle and isn't representive. In the uk apparently we are on 4.7% vegan now (1567% increase in 10 years) its become noticeably more over the last few years but probably not to the same level as cities.
If people had to kill their own meat, not only would there be more vegans, but people who did eat meat would probably eat a lot less on average than the average person today does. It would probably make a lot of people healthier too.
people would probably eat less meat sure just because of the logistics of it, but did u forget that history is a thing? 150 odd years ago most people regularly slaughtered their own animals a few hundred years further back and basically everyone did, and at the same time almost everyone with very very few exceptions ate meat.
Of course they did, they also had drastically less options than they do today. It's no coincidence that veganism is a fairly new concept, it's only fairly recently that it's become feasible.
My point is that slaughtering ur own animals is in no way a deterrent for eating meat at least no more that any other prep for any food is. Also Pescetarianism was available as a life style and very few people chose it despite not having to slaughter anything smart, and despite fish being very easy to kill and butcher from a literal and moral perspective.
Well I agree with you that I don't think it was much of a deterrent, because that was the reality of how people were raised. But I think these days many people have never killed the animals they eat, and they were also not raised in the same conditions, so I suspect that forcing people to kill their own animals today would indeed be somewhat of a deterrent, at least to certain groups of people. But this is of course all just my opinion and speculation.
Healthier is debatable. Meat is, relatively speaking, pretty good from a health perspective.
Most of what we eat that's "bad for us" is refined carbohydrates. Sugar, fried starches, breads, that kinda shit. The burger patty is far from the worst offender on the plate.
If suddenly everyone is slaughtering their own animals, the foods they turn to to replace this calories aren't going to be leafy greens, they're going to be shitty carbs. Shitty carbs are already most of people's diets.
That's a fair point, I was mostly thinking that many people consume far too much meat, and that reducing it would be healthy, but if it's only being replaced with trash then it wouldn't be any better
If we're talking about processed meat, that's probably true. Even a small amount is probably too much.* If we're talking about like, grilled whole cuts? Which admittedly probably isn't typical in most diets, hard to get too much of that. And would be much more common if we were butchering our own meat. But so too would probably be sausage and cured meat so, now I'm not so sure things would change that much.
Really, all you need is a small tractor to lift the steer after you've skinned it and to drop the gut. Skin the animal on the ground and roll it from side to side to get it all off, split the chest and cut out the anus, start lifting at the rear legs with chains through the achilles tendon, and pull the anus through, then as you lift more you can free the gut from the backbone and gravity will pull the gut down as you get higher.
Let it all fall on the skin, pull out the bits of organs you want or can feed the dog, and you have the carcass hanging now. Split with a sawsall and a long demolition blade. Make yourself a handhold between the fifth and sixth rib, then cut through the spine and breastbone above the 6th rib.
Leave as much fat on the inside of the cavity as possible so the tenderloin and brisket don't dry out when hanging. Try to hang it at 2-4C for a couple weeks.
This sounds like excellent advice. I don't even have a small tractor yet. Before steers, I'm going to have to string new fence. Next spring, if I'm lucky and have worked real hard, I'll be getting a bottle calve or two.
Did find a cinder block shed with a good roof that wasn't even listed. Has a loading ramp for a pickup. I'm real tempted to just outsource it.
Have a hernia and don't know if I can do it.
Do have a root cellar that will be perfect for hanging.
we used to live in a world were almost every slaughtered their own animals to eat and withing a rounding error everyone ate meat. its only icky to us today BECAUSE we dont interact with it.
I heartily agree. I'm also an omnivore, raised on a farm. The best meat is the meat you raised or hunted yourself, both ethically and taste wise.
The respect I have for the animal I personally kill for sustenance is the closest an atheist like myself will ever get to religion. I respect the lives of animals to sustain mine as a human, and I know if I raised it or hunted it, it had a much better life and will taste better than any meat you'll see at a Wallmart.
Damn skippy. I've learned I'm an atheist with a pagan heart.
I've found that I must be hunting something when I go in the woods or on the water. Animal, vegetable, or something else. Don't care if I actually kill, catch, or find; there just has to be a goal. I love taking other people and helping them get in tune with the world.
This makes me angry. You murder a creature for your pleasure. You do it against her will. If she could talk she'd beg you for her life, if she could fight back she would. Talking about respect in this violent relationship is self-righteous, cynical and speciesist bullshit. Like talking about respect after raping a child. The best pussy is the one you hunted yourself, right?
For hunting, would you prefer the animal overpopulation starve, get torn apart over hours by predators, or get hit by a car, killing people? A hunters bullet is one of the fastest deaths a wild animal will get.
If plants you kill to eat, the trees that became your furniture and home could talk, they'd beg too. So would the termites, bedbugs and lice, viruses and flesh eating bacteria.
Lastly are you nuts?? Eating a steak isn't child rape, that's insanity lmfao
Haha, no, I don't fuck pumpkin, do you even get what I'm trying to say?
Did you look at the Bullshit Bingo? It addresses everything you said, because you're not the first one to come up with it. It's a collection of a hand full of replies I hear all the time. I answer them all the time. I even looked up the # so you don't have to go through the rest of the bullshit.
Why crazy? It is a very accurate comparison:
Having sex and eating food is a core pleasure baked deep into our brains. We can decide what to eat and who to have sex with and we can use force to get what we want. It's a taboo to rape and a taboo to kill. Animals can't fight back like adult humans because they are innocent and often don't understand the situation they are in, just like children.
Not seeing the similarities is because specisism and carnism are normalised to us in every aspect of our lifes since we're born. Watch the videos, I'm not fighting you. If you want to minimize the suffering of animals, leave them alone! It took me quite some time to figure this out as well.
I'm currently working outside my old home, preparing it for sell. Taking a break right now.
A little old lady just stopped to grab things I'm sitting by the road for picking. She has a daughter and grandkids that are running from abuse. They'll be getting a bunk bed and dressers from us. She likes pigs, we have pet pigs. I'm sitting aside some pig figurines that my girl left behind. One is a birdhouse that is full of piss ants, an invasive species. I poisned the fuck out them because they need to die. They're varmints.
I have a rat problem I'm dealing with due to the cat moving and a bag of feed being left behind. I'm using poison, traps, and a gun to kill the varmints.
I'm not going to take the time to watch whatever videos you're suggesting. Eating meat isn't rape. That is a stupid argument you shouldn't use. It is killing. I'm comfortable with killing.
I'm likely way more in tune with nature, animals, and trying to minimize my impact on the earth than you ever will be. Some of your ideology is poisonous and you are sick from it.
Humans have canines and binocular vision because we are omnivores. Meat and killing can be ethical, it's just difficult.
You're comfortable with killing because you're not the one whos throat is being slit.
I would argue that your idiology is way more poisonous and harmful than mine. If you don't want to watch anything, you can read the transscript here.
Who's got the most impressive canines? You know what they eat?
The woman in that picture has some very minor canines.
The cat has some big ones.
Walking out of a unsuccessful deer hunt, I had an encounter with a mountain lion. Hissed and growled it away. Like totally a peak life experience. It was thinking about eating me and I convinced it otherwise. Did pull my pocket gun in fear.
Getting roaches, which invade your space, don’t contribute positively to it and, in fact, can cause disease is quite different from voluntarily raising chickens for slaughter.
I can confidently say that I have never raped an animal.
My housecat engages in a lot of torture, but she's a damned good mouser. I put a stop to the torture when I catch it. I don't allow my cats outside because they're so bad on native wildlife, especially ground nesting birds. Cats are obligate predators. I kill cats if I find them in the woods as they are now varmints.
I'm an omnivore, and am at peace with that. I strive to kill in a manner that I find ethical. I kill critters to eat them, varmints to restore balance. I'll eat the varmints if I can.
The entire dairy and meat industry is based on the rape and slaughter of animals. Mistreament of animals within the industry is arguably tantamount to torture and would be considered as such where it applied to humans.
Hey! I made this content and was made aware of Lemmy by a friend two days ago. I decided to join and wanted to enter with a bang by sharing some of my OC.
Yep, those awful vegans pushing their agenda for their own gains. Make ME aware of MY CHOICE to pay for animal abuse and torture?! Blatant manipulation!
Exactly! My ancestors didnt pay for slavery, they just wanted cotton. Everyone need cotton, right? I mean they wouldve harvested the cotton themselves, but it was way cheaper from neighboring farmers for whatever reason. That didnt concern them though, they had enough prpblems!
Please dont twist my words. I didnt compare anything. And if I did, I would have compared animal cruelty with slavery (both as unethical acts), not animals with slaves (the recipients of cruelty).
Good point, but I never said they were the same, nor did I compare them. I just made an argument about passive involvement in unethical doings which some regard as normal.
Mosquitos have been causing humans harm since forever. If the vegan idea is too reduce harm then maybe vegans should be obligated to kill the sadistic little fuckers
Just don't grow mushrooms or potatoes in billionaire compost.
They have a tendency to uptake heavy metals from their nutrient source, and no one wants lead in their mushroom soup or mashed potatoes.
This isn't about being smug or not. Veganism is morally superior as long as you consider that animals suffer for Human Consumption, envionmental impacts of animal products far outweigh vegan alternatives, and humans can get all of their nutrition from vegan sources.
The reason humans eat meat is for pleasure and profit, neither of which can be considered "morally superior" to the benefits of Veganism.
I really hope it's a cultural difference, but where I'm from, calling someone a 'morally inferior feminine whiner' "having a full on tantrum" because they said something you dislike with is frowned upon.
Flattening "I deserve to murder terrified children slaves because I'm a picky eater" to "something I dislike" is a bigger offense than your misquote.
But your description of the carnists in this thread is not inaccurate, minus the misogyny you're illiterately trying to paint me with.
But no matter what, wherever there's suffering; wherever there's exploitation, there's a .world account defending it in the most trite, superficial way possible.
I grew up on a farm, I've killed and slaughtered my own food my whole life and I always felt good about eating meat because of that fact.
As I get older I'm really starting to hate killing things, I don't want to end a life at all. My couple of vegetarian days might turn into a whole lifestyle.
The trick is not to kill them yourself, but have factories and animal farms do it while deluding yourself into believing that there is a humane way to killing a living being when the reality is there are only less painful ways. Also, from the other side of the aisle, the trick is to delude yourself into thinking that animals would have any problems eating and preying on you. If cattle had no place in human society, their numbers would significantly decrease. What does that say about human societies with large socioeconomic disparity who are treated by cattle by the rich as they get increasingly automated?
There's no point to this comment, it has been released into the wild so that it may be free.
If you can find TVP in the shops, in a steak shape, that stuff is ridiculous. You just cook them in a vegetable broth, press out the water and then sear them like a steak in a pan. The Maillard reaction turns the protein into that typical seared meat taste and it's similarly chewy, too.
Granted I have been vegetarian for a bit too long to really judge it, but I did also immediately gag on my first bite, because my body was convinced I was biting into meat.
No, but its responsible for ~40% of the entire world's global greenhouse gas emissions. If you're at all left wing, you should put your money where your mouth is and commit to a diet that aligns with literally all of your beliefs.
But hey I'm just Three Ducks, relatively removed from the risk of meat eaters, in the US at least 🦆
No. What is Putin-esque is churlishly claiming that your cruelty and violence are actually the consequences of other people's decisions and actions. It's chilling and everyone sees right through it, but neither you nor Putin really care about that, because neither of you are engaging in good faith.
Specialisation of labour is literally the basis of our entire civilisation. Everybody does it for almost everything. Comparing that to Putin is definitely some next level stupid.
I understand it. And I understand that it is bullshit. It is an attempt to emotionally distance oneself from the consequences of one's own choices. If one chooses for an animal to be killed, one is responsible for its death, and playing little semantic games cannot change that fundamental reality. But these games do prevent one from fully processing an idea that threatens them. It's how you brainwash yourself. Groom yourself to be able to commit cruelty and violence, and not feel bad about it.
To even engage in such sophistry is to confess one's guilt.
Did you really just call stuffing 10 pigs in a cell smaller than my toilet, leaving them unable to even turn around, feeding them with drugs and then killing them without ever having seen the sun 'nature playing out'? Good one.
I really don't see how they are strawmen. The vast majority of people do not need meat, the reason they eat meat is because it tastes good. Taste is merely one of our senses, why is it ok to kill to enjoy the taste, but not ok to enjoy the sound or sight? That's what the meme is getting at.
Nature playing out
Why is this an argument, when it isn't an acceptable reason for anything else? Rape, murder, thievery are all things that most people see as wrong, despite them happening in nature plenty.
One of the things that makes humans unique is our ability to consider logic and mortality beyond what happens in nature, because nature certainly isn't perfect.
i'm stating facts, and you concede those facts, and then claim i'm arguing in bad faith. you don't know what that means: your accusation of bad faith is, itself bad faith.
You are stating strawmen: facts with no relevance to the argument presented, which you then point to and refuse to address the actual argument.
I never claimed to know what any individual needs, but you have started it as a fact as if that is at all relevant. It's not, because I never claimed it. I claimed that I know that the vast majority of people need, based on basic science and statistics. If you have fact which actually argued against that, then please go ahead. But unrelated facts posing as arguments are strawman arguments, and are bad faith.
*please talk to a dietitian or your doctor, if possible, before drastically changing your diet
I've already had to drop dairy out of my diet, so I figure that going vegan isn't necessarily that much of a stretch anymore. It's not because of moral or ethical reasons, though: it's entirely because handling raw meat squicks me out. I currently have to keep up the charade because my family are kind of dicks about it...it sucks.
quantity gained versus effort expended. When feeding a larger group of people, it's far easier to get enough by taking apart a deer as opposed to 20 something squirrels
I'd just like to interject for a moment. What you're refering to as Taste, is in fact, Nutrition/Taste, or as I've recently taken to calling it, Nutrition plus Taste. Taste is not an operating system unto itself, but rather another free component of a fully functioning Nutrition system.
Well now, that's not entirely true. If you will grant me, at least for the sake of this discussion, that /u/dullbananas is a homo sapiens, then I know, to a scientific certainty, that the more meat this homo sapiens consumes, the younger they will die, and the more major health consequences they will suffer.
Would you like to see the several significant and influential studies, some of which span several decades, that establishes this as an indisputable fact or would you just like to keep coming up with the same pat objections that everyone who wishes it was okay to keep eating meat tries to use to rationalize the decision?
I know, to a scientific certainty, that the more meat this homo sapiens consumes, the younger they will die, and the more major health consequences they will suffer.
yeah, yummy meat. I like it a lot. Sometimes i salt it than dry it myself, and god, does it taste delicious. I might be bothered by the cruelty of all this meat industry, but guess what, if i were to choose, i'd rather be a farm pig. Anything actually that does not comprehend the cruelty of this reality, and i'm not talking about farms here. Also, unlike most of us they go away quickly.
P.S. fyi, latest studies show that plants might also feel the pain. Sorry to disappoint you guys, but it seems like we are just doomed to bring more suffering in this world. You better find a way to cope with this before it became more researched.
Attaching a system of mortality to a diet is just religion
... what? I'm sorry, but this simply doesn't make sense at all. By this logic what is wrong with cannibalism? Attaching a system of morality to that diet would just be a religion right? And I'm sure eating human meat has all kinds of nutrients.
The experiences of animals are real and matter. Their suffering is identical in nature to your own. Your moral perspective demands that you deny or ignore these facts. If you can deny that an animal's experience has any value, you can do the same to a human.
I've killed deer, chickens, chipmunks, squirrel, and some other small pests. Yes, I did gut and clean the deer and chickens myself. And yes, I did eat their tasty fleshy meat.
If you think I look silly, sure. All I'm saying is all of the meat advocates that jumped to attack the OP are missing the point.
Now, why would you all misconstrue what they said so bad? Are you all seriously arguing that even close to a substantial percent of people hunt for their own food?
Maybe, just MAYBE, they weren't talking about all of you who actually have, and instead were making a point about how the vast majority of people in at least the US have not and will not hunt their own food in their lifetime. The number drops if we only consider those who actually provide for themselves with hunting rather than treat it as a sport with meat as a bonus.
No you are right, they must have literally meant that noone has ever hunted ever. That makes much more sense. Definitely doesnt say anything about your reading comprehension.
I get it, they are coming for your meat, probably your guns too. Life's rough. Keep up the good fight.
I went crabbing and the resources I found said that killing them before cooking them was likely more humane than boiling them alive, so that's what I did.
My old neighbor's cat once left a paralyzed/twitching rat outside my door, which I found in the morning. I quickly realized that the rat was not going to recover (it had already been there for hours), so I had to figure out a way to quickly end its suffering. I did not eat the rat though.
I have butchered squirrels, deer, turkey, snakes, catfish, goats, pigs, and rabbits. Went vegetarian two years ago for ethical reasons though, so I guess I don't get to raise my hand lol
🙋 I've hunted deer, gutted and skinned them myself too. The tenderloins are great sauteed, and the rest of the meat is good ground (just don't cook it as long as hamburger, it's more lean).
I'll give it a shot anyways, to play devil's advocate.
I only buy a vanishingly small percentage of the amount of meat produced by factory farms every year. So I feel the same percentage responsible for perpetuating that system, which isn't nearly enough to keep me up at night.
Hey we can all just work to be better versions of ourselves, and theres a lot of ways to make progress. Considering I'm the only vegan in my family, I likely buy more meat than you do.
Its really just important to me that people dont allow themselves to stop growing mentally and morally. Its sad when people behave like they have all the answers to everything already.
Good call! :)
The self-reference in this was expected but somehow also the perfect cherry on top
not like us
I mainly kill animals to enjoy the silence that comes after.
Damn mosquitoes sound annoying AF!
Also they're so damn noisy. You'd think their parents could shut them up, but human babies just like to scream.
You're going to steal my blood and annoy me while doing so?
the least you could do is stfu and be grateful but no you have to fucking play vuvuzela LITERALLY IN MY EAR
For real, dead animals taste amazing when you grill them
You should try dog if you get the chance, Elwood dog farm has a low impact factory farm where you can buy Labrador cuts and some gamier breeds if they're in stock.
i know u are saying that because u think that would be bad but there is literally nothing wrong with eating dogs, also cats are good too.
My concern with eating dogs and cats (which I have) is how they were fed. There isn't a lot of health safety concern with those kinds of underground meat sources can sometimes feed dead livestock back to the populace and that can cause all numbers of prion and parasitic concerns.
TBH, I'd expect them to be a bit gamey, especially cats.
Great, so we agree no animals are ethically off limits to kill and consume. How about... Some of the more simple minded human populace? Like, if through IQ testing we find the bottom 5% of humans, and (without eating brain and spine, avoiding prion diseases) feed them to the masses? They're probably not terribly much smarter than dogs, and they could help curb food shortages. Or are humans off limits?
Don't bring your eugenicist ideas into my human meat market. As long as they're fed a healthy corn based diet it's fine.
Thats a fine slippery slope argument u got there and like always its complete shit, people are people and animals are animals.
I'm not suggesting that animal eating leads to cannibalism, which WOULD be a slippery slope.
I'm suggesting that if meat eaters are okay with killing and eating animals, why not the human animal? I probe because the line drawn in the sand is unclear with meat eaters.
Also, humans are animals. This is primary school stuff here.
What separates eating animals from eating people for you?
The fact that you are eating your own species, which is cannibalism.
Right, but what's inherently wrong with eating your own species? I mean, I know, I think any sentient life shouldn't be killed for my pleasure. But with your logic that some species are okay to kill and eat, and others aren't, I'm wanting to know why those others aren't.
Ignoring "societal norms", as they've been used to commit genocide, slavery, and all manner of atrocities - why is cannibalism logically, in your opinion, bad?
No, humans taste nasty all joking aside. Also prions. Don't eat your own kind, there are reasons for this.
That's why I said "avoiding the brain and spine, to avoid prion diseases". You might have misread my comment.
do you trust the processing facilities for the underground dogmeat industry to even come close to choosing safety over profit in shaving that meat down as close to cartilage as possible?
Oh we're talking about eating humans now, we're well past dogs as it seems like a fair few people here would be okay with factory farming them.
Personally, my ethics are simple and easily define - if it displays sentience, I won't eat it. It's unethical to kill and eat something that feels pain. I'm more interested in your more nebulous ethics, where some species are okay to eat, some not
It sounds like you're okay with eating dogs, which id argue is demonstrably disgusting, but in your opinion, is it okay to rear, kill and then eat humans?
there are genuine health issues with cannibalism unlike dogs and cats, bet we taste good too given the right seasonings tho
Only if you eat the brain or spinal column, which I was careful to add. Otherwise the risks are as manageable as with cow meat, i.e., parasites and bacteria. Given that you're okay with eating cats and dogs, and now simple-minded humans, what's to stop me from killing and eating you? I mean, all anyone needs to assert is that they're mentally superior to their food, what's off the table for you?
I'm sure mass scale cannibalism might actually be as good for the environment as a plant based diet. Maybe you're on to something. We'd be so morally consistent!
go ahead a good third of my country thinks i shouldn't exist anyway and im sick of fighting it, im sure i taste good too
you keep trying to push people into corners about this when most ppl who eat meat do it simply because it tastes good, has good nutritional value, and is easily accessible. for my two cents in w serious manor, the meat industry is fucked up and should be regulated, since you didn't take my initial comment as the shitpost it is
there are moral concerns but for most people (majority will never even know what lemmy is) simply don't care and will never care, because meat tastes good
Pushing people into corners is what good debate is about. If people find their refutations are weak enough to have them back into a corner, then they should abandon that argument.
I grew up on a farm in the south of New Zealand. My brothers were dairy farmers, my front yard was cattle, I was a staunch anti-vegan who swore he'd never eat vegetarian as long as he lived.
I will never care because meat tastes good. Except now I do.
There is no level of regulation that permits - in good moral conscience - the subjugation and slaughter of animals for our pleasure.
Meat is only easily accessible because it is heavily subsidized by the government. A vegan diet is nearly always cheaper - consider that most developing nations eat vegan/vegetarian because of this.
There's a short book I read that absolutely convinced me of veganism called "This is Vegan Propaganda and Other Lies The Meat Industry Tells You". I've had 5 people read it, and ALL FIVE have gone vegan. It's straight up insane how brutal a grip the meat industry has on people, through lobbying, ad campaigns, purposeful obfuscation of the industry. Bananas!
they're clearly not interested in the truth or even changing your mind: they are sophists, performing for a (likely imagined) audience.
I will eat your babies!
then u will starve
Good man.
For a split second that website looked convincing 🙂
Would try if it was real.
You can try some in Switzerland. While you can't sell the meat, slaughtering and eating it is legal. There is farms where you can "make a donation" and they'll invite you to dinner.
I agree! There's actually a few human races I consider acceptable to eat, what a breath of fresh air to find someone like minded!
Ew, are you like a racist or something ?
I suppose when you presuppose superiority over sentient life for no other reason than your own pleasure, it's quite easy to become racist.
You're dawn right "ew"!
Ok now I'm angry it was a joke. Do you have any idea how hard it is to find organic free range husky?!
I mean I could but I have a nearly limitless supply of rabbits in my yard. Their fur makes great gifts. My plants love the compost I get from everything else. As a bonus the blood compost deters rabbits from eating my cabbage.
Funny thing, I can't seem to find any type of vegan certification that is concerned with the use of animal byproducts or waste in fertilizer. A few specifically say they do not check fertilizer.
Actually a lot of organic farms rely on blood and bone meal, manure and fish emulsion fertilizers. They're inexpensive as they're byproducts of other industries and are very good for plants.
When I worked in an organic greenhouse I often wondered about how vegans would feel about farmers using animal based fertilizers. We definitely told people what we used, as we sold those products, but no one ever said anything about it. I guess vegans can't control that so maybe it's a nonissue unless they grow their own food and use seaweed based fertilizer(more expensive) instead?
If you’ve got the luxury, you can also let fields go fallow and rotate crops to avoid fertilizer. That obviously requires more land though
This thread is weird. It seems like you all never heard of compost.
Does that work long term on a commercial scale without egg shells/ bone meal? Afaik, there needs to be an additional source of calcium, but that could of course also supplement crop rotation/fallowing.
Though tbf, limestone is very soft and I could see supplementing with ground limestone.
Eggs shells don't work unless they're ground into a very fine powder.
I don't know the answer to this question. You may be right. And yea, I can see limestone in the right doses working.
And we could always extract the nutrients from our waste. Close the cycle: what goes in, goes out. We're already using biosolids in agriculture.
Don't let perfection be the enemy of good. If everyone stopped eating animals, there'd be no surplus of blood and bone for fertilisers, and other plant based by-products would fill the space.
As for the rabbits, I actually have a small Australian shepherd that runs through my lawn chasing the wallabies that meander by, I've been meaning to trap it and humanely slaughter it, the blue coat would make a great gift! And if the owner comes by looking for Bella, I could trap him and humanely slaughter him too. He looks a bit simple, so it seems ethical to me? He'd make good compost, that's for true.
I expected the dog to be actually blue, but it seems to just be a pattern. Would'v been cool though
Upvoting, because while I don't eat meat myself, I like people who are consistent.
If you're okay with eating a pig, don't judge those you eat a dog.
That does sound intriguing. How does it taste?
Gamey unless reared correctly. Better to eat pet dogs as the meat generally tastes juicier. It can sometimes be unpleasant bolting them before slitting their throats after they've lived inside for so long, but knowing they lived a happy life free of predators, and didn't die of old age (try to kill before they become yearlings) makes it feel right.
I'm fine with gamey meat, lots of hunters in the family. Sounds interesting, I might try it sometime.
Try Harder.
What? Try harder to what? Don't defend yourself in court hahahaha. "Does the defense have any closing statements?" "Uh yes your honour. Ahem. leans into mic t-try harder"
Apologies but this is just assumptions. Pet meat isn't good quality. Your average commercial pet food uses hydrogenated oils for shelf longevity and that causes a very bitter flavor.
farm raised dog is usually fed on grain and suet or tallow, and avoids this problem.
I mean, people hardly ever eat carnivores. Even pigs, which are omnivores, are 90% of the time herbivores. I don't even eat meat, but this argument never made sense to me. Yes, there are countries where people eat dogs, but that doesn't mean dogs and cats are equivalent to cattle. You can make an argument for horses though.
Horse meat does taste pretty good
If prepped properly, still needs a milk soak.
The argument works for a Western audience that are okay with killing and eat some animals, but find it abhorrent to eat others. Most people don't like the idea of dogs in pain, and if we did rear dogs like we do pigs, there would be huge public outcry.
And sure, you get Redditors and Lemmy-ites who go "Oh ho i'd eat dog!", but they mean they'd try the meat once at a market, to maintain moral consistency. The truth is they'd be just as horrified if they saw dogs yelping in factory farmed cages, like we treat chickens.
But there's no reason to treat some animals one way, some another. They all feel pain, they all feel misery, they all call for their children once they've been culled. It's objectively immoral to eat meat when not for necessity.
How do you measure how much misery a cod feels?
Edit: sorry that was a bit snarky. I don't think you're completely off the mark but I would think an animal needs at least a nervous system to experience pain, so there are categories to consider and it may be morally virtuous to abstain from eating some animals but not necessarily immoral, and we should be careful to anthropomorphize other animal emotional states.
So fish have nociceptors, and a brain that connects to them, and they avoid painful stimuli. They have analgesic response systems in their brain to dull painful stimuli. Even the most cautious interpetation of misery would include pain, so I would not kill and eat it. Fish display sentience, therefore it is immoral to kill them for pleasure.
Maybe I'm off on this but suffering/misery would include pain + the emotional state of unhappiness or we would just use pain for both? Avoiding painful stimuli doesn't tell me about their emotional state or cognitive awareness of the pain, just an awareness of the stimuli.
Plants process pain and can communicate with other plants.
By your logic it is immoral to mow your grass.
No serious study suggests plants feel pain. They do not have a brain or central nervous system. At most, they respond to stimuli.
Many more plants "die" for animal feeding than with a vegan diet.
If you're worried about grass pain, you should focus more on the animals that DO have nociceptors, central nervous systems and brains, and the ability to feel fear that you subject them too, purely for taste preference.
Knock it off with the trolling nonsense
It's pretty obvious you're a troll
We are well aware of the dog meat troll tactic from vеgаns
Hypothetical moral questions posed genuinely is not trolling. If you're okay with eating cows and pigs, why is eating dogs considered trolling?
it's bad faith
I have no intent to deceive. There's a moral inconsistency amongst meat eaters. Pigs are okay, dogs are not. Why? "Oh, because we like dogs" Does that mean I can eat any sentient thing I dislike? "Well, no, dogs are intelligent!" Pigs are smarter than most breeds of dog, and have equal capabilities for emotion.
There is no logical argument against veganism in western society. Literally none. Meat eaters collectively breed and kill literally billions of animals per year, destroying the planet, because it's yummy. Meat eaters have essentially caused swine flu, bird flu, ebola, corona virus, just for the taste of meat. Meat eaters are causing treatment resistant bacteria by abusing antibiotics on high intensity farming, all for meat. That's crazy.
it's clearly a gotcha. that's bad faith.
there is no logical argument for a lot of things, its just culture. and it is tasty and thats all that need be said.
There's a lot of awful things in culture. It was culturally acceptable to slap a women on the bottom for a good job.
Your argument is "ah well".
That's not a reasonable defense for your objectively immoral actions. You are causing the suffering of sentient life for taste, that makes you immoral. Not to mention the horrible effect your diet has on the planet.
Listen brother, I eat meat but if you go into a vegan post and get into an argument about veganism, you're not being trolled, you're the troll.
It doesn't help that the vegans are right. The meat industry is a nightmare, terrible for the environment, and pretty bad for our health.
It's insane that most Americans eat meat every day.
If I could put 100% tax on meat tomorrow I would, but that's political suicide, so it'll never happen. It'd be easier to adjust than you think. There are plenty of delicious vegetarian options, and it'd be a lot easier to choose those if they were more common.
I eat meat because it's culturally acceptable, delicious, ubiquitous, and I don't believe I can make a noticeable difference. But that doesn't mean I think it's right.
Not eating meat won't change the systemic problems but it will mean fewer animals will be subject to the industry. Over the course of a lifetime, the number of animals you can save adds up.
Also it's a good habit to transfer thoughts and beliefs into actions.
more animals are breed and slaughtered every year than the year before. being vegan has never reduced that
Yeah no shit, but the number would be even higher if fewer people were vegan.
What bizarre logic, what thorough lack of object permanence.
Just because meat eating outpaces veganism doesn't mean vegans haven't reduced the consumption of meat?
I don't even think you know what you're saying now. If the whole world went vegan today, there'd be no meat animal slaughter. YOU are the cause of this problem.
"Oh world hunger is getting worse, I better stop my charity donations!"
"Oh greenhouse gas emissions are on the rise, might as well go back to oil and gas!"
Like, you realise how foolish that argument is, right?
Agreed
Same for dead plants and mushrooms tho.
porque no los dos
?
Tried and true
I actually respect vegans that are vegan to prevent the suffering of animals.
I get it. Grew up farming. Chicken houses are an industrial horror machine.
We've recently bought a play farm and hope to raise or hunt all our meat. Only the slaughter and butchering of steers will be outsourced. Takes some serious equipment to handle an animal that large.
I'm an omnivore by evolution and enjoy meat and hunting. I'm always a little sad when I kill something, however. I figure that sadness means I'm human and is a good thing. When I eat meat from something I killed, it means more. There is a lot of respect involved in it as well something like religion.
If more people had to kill their meat, we would probably live in a very different world and there would be a lot more vegans.
I agree with your overall post, but you have the conclusion backwards.
The closer you are to hunting or slaughtering the more it's just a normal part of life. I've never met a vegan when I grew up in a rural area around farms, only after I moved to the city and it's almost exclusivly people that grew up in the city.
vegan here who grew up on farms. Just because you don't know them doesn't mean they aren't common.
Well, I wouldn't say vegans are common anywhere (where I've lived). It's like 1-2% of the population.
And while my point indeed was totally anecdotal, it goes beyond just knowing people. There are other hints. I still often visit family in my childhood home area and even today you can notice a different in marketing. Restaurants there often don't even mark meals as vegan on the menu, while restaurants in big cities often have an entire section for vegan meals.
Also supermarkets specialising on bio food and such (our equivilant of like wholefoods) aren't present at all. You'd have to drive like 30km to get to one. Also in regular supermarkets meat replacement options are either not availible or poorly stocked.
So I'm not sure if it's a result or a cause, but I'd say it's much harder to be vegan in a rural area, just from a logistical standpoint. And you get a lot more local farmers markets, so you also have access to fresh and relativly cheap meat.
I've tried to search for some statistics about the distribution of vegans in urban and rural areas, but didn't find anything useful. I did find some quora and reddit threads with quite a few replies of people that have similar expirences to mine.
If you have any, please share.
Yeah, you're right it's a different thing to doing it in cities, cooking is important. In my experience, I have lots of vegan rural friends however that's due to my social circle and isn't representive. In the uk apparently we are on 4.7% vegan now (1567% increase in 10 years) its become noticeably more over the last few years but probably not to the same level as cities.
Is that from people converting or because of immigration from places like India?
To be honest I'm not sure. The increase I have seen has been across all ethnicitys, mostly younger people though.
Ah interesting
Oh you’re vegan, too? Because I’m vegan!!
You might be right. When I was young; didn't meet vegans until I experienced big cities.
If people had to kill their own meat, not only would there be more vegans, but people who did eat meat would probably eat a lot less on average than the average person today does. It would probably make a lot of people healthier too.
people would probably eat less meat sure just because of the logistics of it, but did u forget that history is a thing? 150 odd years ago most people regularly slaughtered their own animals a few hundred years further back and basically everyone did, and at the same time almost everyone with very very few exceptions ate meat.
Of course they did, they also had drastically less options than they do today. It's no coincidence that veganism is a fairly new concept, it's only fairly recently that it's become feasible.
My point is that slaughtering ur own animals is in no way a deterrent for eating meat at least no more that any other prep for any food is. Also Pescetarianism was available as a life style and very few people chose it despite not having to slaughter anything smart, and despite fish being very easy to kill and butcher from a literal and moral perspective.
Well I agree with you that I don't think it was much of a deterrent, because that was the reality of how people were raised. But I think these days many people have never killed the animals they eat, and they were also not raised in the same conditions, so I suspect that forcing people to kill their own animals today would indeed be somewhat of a deterrent, at least to certain groups of people. But this is of course all just my opinion and speculation.
It would eliminate fast food that's for sure.
Healthier is debatable. Meat is, relatively speaking, pretty good from a health perspective.
Most of what we eat that's "bad for us" is refined carbohydrates. Sugar, fried starches, breads, that kinda shit. The burger patty is far from the worst offender on the plate.
If suddenly everyone is slaughtering their own animals, the foods they turn to to replace this calories aren't going to be leafy greens, they're going to be shitty carbs. Shitty carbs are already most of people's diets.
That's a fair point, I was mostly thinking that many people consume far too much meat, and that reducing it would be healthy, but if it's only being replaced with trash then it wouldn't be any better
If we're talking about processed meat, that's probably true. Even a small amount is probably too much.* If we're talking about like, grilled whole cuts? Which admittedly probably isn't typical in most diets, hard to get too much of that. And would be much more common if we were butchering our own meat. But so too would probably be sausage and cured meat so, now I'm not so sure things would change that much.
*Guilty as charged.
Really, all you need is a small tractor to lift the steer after you've skinned it and to drop the gut. Skin the animal on the ground and roll it from side to side to get it all off, split the chest and cut out the anus, start lifting at the rear legs with chains through the achilles tendon, and pull the anus through, then as you lift more you can free the gut from the backbone and gravity will pull the gut down as you get higher.
Let it all fall on the skin, pull out the bits of organs you want or can feed the dog, and you have the carcass hanging now. Split with a sawsall and a long demolition blade. Make yourself a handhold between the fifth and sixth rib, then cut through the spine and breastbone above the 6th rib.
Leave as much fat on the inside of the cavity as possible so the tenderloin and brisket don't dry out when hanging. Try to hang it at 2-4C for a couple weeks.
This sounds like excellent advice. I don't even have a small tractor yet. Before steers, I'm going to have to string new fence. Next spring, if I'm lucky and have worked real hard, I'll be getting a bottle calve or two.
Did find a cinder block shed with a good roof that wasn't even listed. Has a loading ramp for a pickup. I'm real tempted to just outsource it.
Have a hernia and don't know if I can do it.
Do have a root cellar that will be perfect for hanging.
It's not a bad job, but with a hernia you might find it distinctly unenjoyable. There's quite a bit of bending and kneeling as you skin, obviously.
we used to live in a world were almost every slaughtered their own animals to eat and withing a rounding error everyone ate meat. its only icky to us today BECAUSE we dont interact with it.
I heartily agree. I'm also an omnivore, raised on a farm. The best meat is the meat you raised or hunted yourself, both ethically and taste wise.
The respect I have for the animal I personally kill for sustenance is the closest an atheist like myself will ever get to religion. I respect the lives of animals to sustain mine as a human, and I know if I raised it or hunted it, it had a much better life and will taste better than any meat you'll see at a Wallmart.
Damn skippy. I've learned I'm an atheist with a pagan heart.
I've found that I must be hunting something when I go in the woods or on the water. Animal, vegetable, or something else. Don't care if I actually kill, catch, or find; there just has to be a goal. I love taking other people and helping them get in tune with the world.
This makes me angry. You murder a creature for your pleasure. You do it against her will. If she could talk she'd beg you for her life, if she could fight back she would. Talking about respect in this violent relationship is self-righteous, cynical and speciesist bullshit. Like talking about respect after raping a child. The best pussy is the one you hunted yourself, right?
For hunting, would you prefer the animal overpopulation starve, get torn apart over hours by predators, or get hit by a car, killing people? A hunters bullet is one of the fastest deaths a wild animal will get.
If plants you kill to eat, the trees that became your furniture and home could talk, they'd beg too. So would the termites, bedbugs and lice, viruses and flesh eating bacteria.
Lastly are you nuts?? Eating a steak isn't child rape, that's insanity lmfao
Yeah it's not as insane as you think, as I commented here. Plus you're ticking some serious Bullshit Bingo. Check #15, #22, #37, and #51.
Since eating is just like fucking, do you fuck the pumpkin pie at family dinner?
Also, nice job addressing 0 of the things I said. Keep that vegan rep strong!
Haha, no, I don't fuck pumpkin, do you even get what I'm trying to say?
Did you look at the Bullshit Bingo? It addresses everything you said, because you're not the first one to come up with it. It's a collection of a hand full of replies I hear all the time. I answer them all the time. I even looked up the # so you don't have to go through the rest of the bullshit.
Wow, like you're pretty warped. Here we are with the rape stuff again. Raping children, no less.
You need to do some thinking. That line of argument isn't effective.
You're claiming this crazy shit and the above person and myself are actively working minimize the suffering of animals.
Go touch grass and pet a dog.
Why crazy? It is a very accurate comparison:
Having sex and eating food is a core pleasure baked deep into our brains. We can decide what to eat and who to have sex with and we can use force to get what we want. It's a taboo to rape and a taboo to kill. Animals can't fight back like adult humans because they are innocent and often don't understand the situation they are in, just like children.
Not seeing the similarities is because specisism and carnism are normalised to us in every aspect of our lifes since we're born. Watch the videos, I'm not fighting you. If you want to minimize the suffering of animals, leave them alone! It took me quite some time to figure this out as well.
I'm currently working outside my old home, preparing it for sell. Taking a break right now.
A little old lady just stopped to grab things I'm sitting by the road for picking. She has a daughter and grandkids that are running from abuse. They'll be getting a bunk bed and dressers from us. She likes pigs, we have pet pigs. I'm sitting aside some pig figurines that my girl left behind. One is a birdhouse that is full of piss ants, an invasive species. I poisned the fuck out them because they need to die. They're varmints.
I have a rat problem I'm dealing with due to the cat moving and a bag of feed being left behind. I'm using poison, traps, and a gun to kill the varmints.
I'm not going to take the time to watch whatever videos you're suggesting. Eating meat isn't rape. That is a stupid argument you shouldn't use. It is killing. I'm comfortable with killing.
I'm likely way more in tune with nature, animals, and trying to minimize my impact on the earth than you ever will be. Some of your ideology is poisonous and you are sick from it.
Humans have canines and binocular vision because we are omnivores. Meat and killing can be ethical, it's just difficult.
You're comfortable with killing because you're not the one whos throat is being slit.
I would argue that your idiology is way more poisonous and harmful than mine. If you don't want to watch anything, you can read the transscript here.
Who's got the most impressive canines? You know what they eat?
The woman in that picture has some very minor canines.
The cat has some big ones.
Walking out of a unsuccessful deer hunt, I had an encounter with a mountain lion. Hissed and growled it away. Like totally a peak life experience. It was thinking about eating me and I convinced it otherwise. Did pull my pocket gun in fear.
I’m vegan btw
😛
No, you don't get it. Or you would stop raping, enslaving, torturing and murdering animals.
The animals we create are morally equivalent to our own children and are owed the exact same unconditional love and protection.
Other humans aren't morally equivalent to my own children. Where the hell do you get off?
You should love Trump like you love your own child!!! 😂
Lmao when you get roaches.
???
Getting roaches, which invade your space, don’t contribute positively to it and, in fact, can cause disease is quite different from voluntarily raising chickens for slaughter.
I can confidently say that I have never raped an animal.
My housecat engages in a lot of torture, but she's a damned good mouser. I put a stop to the torture when I catch it. I don't allow my cats outside because they're so bad on native wildlife, especially ground nesting birds. Cats are obligate predators. I kill cats if I find them in the woods as they are now varmints.
I'm an omnivore, and am at peace with that. I strive to kill in a manner that I find ethical. I kill critters to eat them, varmints to restore balance. I'll eat the varmints if I can.
I live in the real world.
no one is raping, enslaving, or torturing animals
The entire dairy and meat industry is based on the rape and slaughter of animals. Mistreament of animals within the industry is arguably tantamount to torture and would be considered as such where it applied to humans.
no one is raping animals and slaughter isn't enslavement nor is it torture
The rape part they are referring to is forced insemination.
that's not rape
according to PETA it is
they're wrong
I agree, but the question isn't 'is artificial insemination rape', but rather 'Does PETA consider artificial insemination rape'.
Except for Dave. Someone should say something to him.
And yet, when it's people, there's a problem. Such a double standard 🙄
Hey, speak for yourself! Some of us take communion…
99% of humans have the complete opposite reaction when the animal in question is a mosquito.
Killing the animals because the Metroid speedrun is faster.
Oh hey, a 1-day-old account posting 6 vegan posts in 1 hour to unrelated communities. I’ve seen this one before.
Hey! I made this content and was made aware of Lemmy by a friend two days ago. I decided to join and wanted to enter with a bang by sharing some of my OC.
Welcome and thank you for posting oc.
💚
Hell yeah
Hey, I’m vegan!
Hello!
Yep, Social Media Manipulation 101
I've seen an increasing trend of vеgаns doing this especially on lemmy
Yep, those awful vegans pushing their agenda for their own gains. Make ME aware of MY CHOICE to pay for animal abuse and torture?! Blatant manipulation!
no one is paying for animal abuse or torture
Exactly! My ancestors didnt pay for slavery, they just wanted cotton. Everyone need cotton, right? I mean they wouldve harvested the cotton themselves, but it was way cheaper from neighboring farmers for whatever reason. That didnt concern them though, they had enough prpblems!
comparing slaves to animals is what slavers do
Please dont twist my words. I didnt compare anything. And if I did, I would have compared animal cruelty with slavery (both as unethical acts), not animals with slaves (the recipients of cruelty).
anyone can see what you said
"slaves are the same as animals" famously an argument made by good people whos opinions we should listen too
Good point, but I never said they were the same, nor did I compare them. I just made an argument about passive involvement in unethical doings which some regard as normal.
I do actually like to see mosquitoes die.
Specially when they are running away with MY blood.
Mosquitos have been causing humans harm since forever. If the vegan idea is too reduce harm then maybe vegans should be obligated to kill the sadistic little fuckers
Yeah I like to flatten them in a millisecond
I like the trick where you squeeze the skin around where they’re sucking so they explode
I would join vegan standards but I still wait for the "eat the rich" part. I mean who would do it? Those vegans? no. This is a job for meat lovers.
Eating the rich is vegan, as they are not sentient and don't feel pain.
But please stop paying for animal abuse
no one is paying for animal abuse
Literally billions of people are. Do you think meat just spontaneously appears in the supermarket?
no, they aren't.
Found the person that is
Just don't grow mushrooms or potatoes in billionaire compost. They have a tendency to uptake heavy metals from their nutrient source, and no one wants lead in their mushroom soup or mashed potatoes.
Compost the rich and use them to fertilize the fields.
want to see a westerner have a full on tantrum? Suggest to them that their actions are not always morally neutral
The smug, always morally neutral easterners:
I hate these filthy Neutrals. With enemies you know where they stand but with Neutrals, who knows? It sickens me.
Look up the prevalence of veganism
The smug, eternally morally superior vegan:
I mean, Vegans are morally superior, that's a solved question.
Can anyone downvoting this explain how vegans are not morally superior?
I would be very surprised. I am not even fully vegan myself, people just don't want to confront their own moral issues.
no, they're not
Yes, they are, unless you can make the argument that animal suffering and environmental destruction are good things.
being vegan doesn't do anything about those
Thry certainly earn the smug reputation
This isn't about being smug or not. Veganism is morally superior as long as you consider that animals suffer for Human Consumption, envionmental impacts of animal products far outweigh vegan alternatives, and humans can get all of their nutrition from vegan sources.
The reason humans eat meat is for pleasure and profit, neither of which can be considered "morally superior" to the benefits of Veganism.
They're better than you and it should be known.
I really hope it's a cultural difference, but where I'm from, calling someone a 'morally inferior feminine whiner' "having a full on tantrum" because they said something you dislike with is frowned upon.
Flattening "I deserve to murder terrified children slaves because I'm a picky eater" to "something I dislike" is a bigger offense than your misquote.
But your description of the carnists in this thread is not inaccurate, minus the misogyny you're illiterately trying to paint me with.
But no matter what, wherever there's suffering; wherever there's exploitation, there's a .world account defending it in the most trite, superficial way possible.
I grew up on a farm, I've killed and slaughtered my own food my whole life and I always felt good about eating meat because of that fact.
As I get older I'm really starting to hate killing things, I don't want to end a life at all. My couple of vegetarian days might turn into a whole lifestyle.
The trick is not to kill them yourself, but have factories and animal farms do it while deluding yourself into believing that there is a humane way to killing a living being when the reality is there are only less painful ways. Also, from the other side of the aisle, the trick is to delude yourself into thinking that animals would have any problems eating and preying on you. If cattle had no place in human society, their numbers would significantly decrease. What does that say about human societies with large socioeconomic disparity who are treated by cattle by the rich as they get increasingly automated?
There's no point to this comment, it has been released into the wild so that it may be free.
This but unironically
I've been vegetarian for about 3 years (working towards vegan) because I want to decrease my carbon footprint, but yeah. Meat is delicious.
If you can find TVP in the shops, in a steak shape, that stuff is ridiculous. You just cook them in a vegetable broth, press out the water and then sear them like a steak in a pan. The Maillard reaction turns the protein into that typical seared meat taste and it's similarly chewy, too.
Granted I have been vegetarian for a bit too long to really judge it, but I did also immediately gag on my first bite, because my body was convinced I was biting into meat.
The toasty warm planet thanks your contributions. Especially those dying from extreme weather events!
My apologies. Didn't realize my dietary habits were responsible for the state of the US electrical grid.
No, but its responsible for ~40% of the entire world's global greenhouse gas emissions. If you're at all left wing, you should put your money where your mouth is and commit to a diet that aligns with literally all of your beliefs.
But hey I'm just Three Ducks, relatively removed from the risk of meat eaters, in the US at least 🦆
all of agriculture is only responsible for about 20% of global emissions. your numbers are wrong
Prove it.
https://ourworldindata.org/ghg-emissions-by-sector
There.
I don't kill any animals, I leave that to others.
Putin-esque.
If most people in the world are Putin-esque, making the term meaningless, then sure.
No. What is Putin-esque is churlishly claiming that your cruelty and violence are actually the consequences of other people's decisions and actions. It's chilling and everyone sees right through it, but neither you nor Putin really care about that, because neither of you are engaging in good faith.
Username checks out.
Specialisation of labour is literally the basis of our entire civilisation. Everybody does it for almost everything. Comparing that to Putin is definitely some next level stupid.
That's obviously not my point. "Next level stupid" indeed.
No, reading your follow up comment made me realise you misunderstood (maybe intentionally, but I think not) the inital point in the first place.
I understand it. And I understand that it is bullshit. It is an attempt to emotionally distance oneself from the consequences of one's own choices. If one chooses for an animal to be killed, one is responsible for its death, and playing little semantic games cannot change that fundamental reality. But these games do prevent one from fully processing an idea that threatens them. It's how you brainwash yourself. Groom yourself to be able to commit cruelty and violence, and not feel bad about it.
To even engage in such sophistry is to confess one's guilt.
Ok buddy.
You can have the last bark. I won't reply anymore. Go ahead, take it. Buddy.
Totally missed touch along with many other senses.
The MFs in hungary, finland and the uk pretending that blood is a freaking ingredient and cooking "food" from it.
Blood is an ingredient in many other countries. We have blood sausages (morcilla) in Spain, and they're common in many other places too
What's your problem with that? I'm not into it myself but I can't see how it's any different from eating meat in the first place
They do be tasting good though
Well three of them are psycho strawman and the last one is nature playing out lol
Did you really just call stuffing 10 pigs in a cell smaller than my toilet, leaving them unable to even turn around, feeding them with drugs and then killing them without ever having seen the sun 'nature playing out'? Good one.
this is moving the goal post
I really don't see how they are strawmen. The vast majority of people do not need meat, the reason they eat meat is because it tastes good. Taste is merely one of our senses, why is it ok to kill to enjoy the taste, but not ok to enjoy the sound or sight? That's what the meme is getting at.
Why is this an argument, when it isn't an acceptable reason for anything else? Rape, murder, thievery are all things that most people see as wrong, despite them happening in nature plenty.
One of the things that makes humans unique is our ability to consider logic and mortality beyond what happens in nature, because nature certainly isn't perfect.
you don't know what others need
I of course don't know what any specific person needs, but knowing what the vast majority of people need is trivial, it's basic science.
Please stop arguing is such bad faith in every response you make.
i'm stating facts, and you concede those facts, and then claim i'm arguing in bad faith. you don't know what that means: your accusation of bad faith is, itself bad faith.
You are stating strawmen: facts with no relevance to the argument presented, which you then point to and refuse to address the actual argument.
I never claimed to know what any individual needs, but you have started it as a fact as if that is at all relevant. It's not, because I never claimed it. I claimed that I know that the vast majority of people need, based on basic science and statistics. If you have fact which actually argued against that, then please go ahead. But unrelated facts posing as arguments are strawman arguments, and are bad faith.
we can all read what you said
That's not an argument. it's a fact.
It might be a fact, but it's being used as an argument to make a specific point. These things are not exclusive.
And my question stands, why is it being used as an argument when it has no relevance?
Fastest way to get anyone offended is to even remotely imply they could change the way they eat... Jesus y'all are vitriolic WTF?
Yummy man flesh
Pork has no fucking business being that damn tasty.
Its like its begging to be cooked.
*please talk to a dietitian or your doctor, if possible, before drastically changing your diet
I've already had to drop dairy out of my diet, so I figure that going vegan isn't necessarily that much of a stretch anymore. It's not because of moral or ethical reasons, though: it's entirely because handling raw meat squicks me out. I currently have to keep up the charade because my family are kind of dicks about it...it sucks.
The first time we harvested one of our pigs we had a wake for him. We ate all kinds of delicious cuts and raised a toasted to him.
To Biggun. He was a nice pig and he is a tasty pig.
TO BIGGUN!
Makes sense
Welcome on Lemmy!
Thank you! It's been fun so far! :)
I only kill animals so vegans can keep making memes. Fuck they're tasty though.
The vegans or the animals?
The animals of course. Vegans don't have enough meat on them.
what does quantity have to do with flavor
quantity gained versus effort expended. When feeding a larger group of people, it's far easier to get enough by taking apart a deer as opposed to 20 something squirrels
The memes
Tasty and go in a large variety of meals
We need to eat. We don't need tol take joy in aninal deaths. These are different things and the meme is dumb.
PETA be like:
❎All those listed
✅Killing animals taken to your shelter
✅Having sex with the animal (claiming animals can't consent is speciesist)
What you're referring to as taste is in fact taste + nutrition
I'd just like to interject for a moment. What you're refering to as Taste, is in fact, Nutrition/Taste, or as I've recently taken to calling it, Nutrition plus Taste. Taste is not an operating system unto itself, but rather another free component of a fully functioning Nutrition system.
The more animal flesh you consume, the younger you die and the more major diseases you suffer. Google: "all cause mortality meat".
I eat so much meat that my life expectancy went negative and rolled over to the maximum allowed value of 2,147,483,647 years.
you have no idea what their nutritional needs or risk factors are
You've been shouting at the sky this whole thread.
You do know vegans only want people to be vegan who can do so in a healthy way, right?
this is a smoke screen. that user made a specific claim and I pointed out that they are making it up
Is that what you think you are doing??
this is just posturing
Well now, that's not entirely true. If you will grant me, at least for the sake of this discussion, that /u/dullbananas is a homo sapiens, then I know, to a scientific certainty, that the more meat this homo sapiens consumes, the younger they will die, and the more major health consequences they will suffer.
Would you like to see the several significant and influential studies, some of which span several decades, that establishes this as an indisputable fact or would you just like to keep coming up with the same pat objections that everyone who wishes it was okay to keep eating meat tries to use to rationalize the decision?
no, you don't
I think you meant to say, "no, you don't, and I won't look at any evidence to the contrary, la la la, i cannot hear you, la la la"
this is a straw man. it's also not evidence.
I asked you if you wanted evidence and you just said stupid shit at me. Would you LIKE evidence, now?
mmmm animal flesh inbetween my teeth. Fking amazing.
But not swine. Fk swine.
I will literally dissolve down to a skeleton and die if I don't see hear or smell animals having a bad time.
That's why it's so important.
/s get fucked.
There sure is a lot of vegan propaganda on Lemmy. It's very annoying and not particularly memey.
yeah, yummy meat. I like it a lot. Sometimes i salt it than dry it myself, and god, does it taste delicious. I might be bothered by the cruelty of all this meat industry, but guess what, if i were to choose, i'd rather be a farm pig. Anything actually that does not comprehend the cruelty of this reality, and i'm not talking about farms here. Also, unlike most of us they go away quickly.
P.S. fyi, latest studies show that plants might also feel the pain. Sorry to disappoint you guys, but it seems like we are just doomed to bring more suffering in this world. You better find a way to cope with this before it became more researched.
The whole taste argument completely ignores nutrition.
Why don’t you only eat potatoes? Do you derive taste pleasure from B12 supplements?
Attaching a system of morality to a diet is just religion.
I maintain that veganism is just halal/kosher for atheists/agnostics.
The store stocks them with raspberry and mango taste, so yes? I have no idea what your point is, though.
... what? I'm sorry, but this simply doesn't make sense at all. By this logic what is wrong with cannibalism? Attaching a system of morality to that diet would just be a religion right? And I'm sure eating human meat has all kinds of nutrients.
The experiences of animals are real and matter. Their suffering is identical in nature to your own. Your moral perspective demands that you deny or ignore these facts. If you can deny that an animal's experience has any value, you can do the same to a human.
So you’ve never killed a mosquito, right? Or a spider? Ants, perhaps?
So, do you only eat like shadows and stuff?
I could deny that a human's experience has any value, true. But I generally don't.
Hey all you modern-day meat eaters out there, raise your hand if you've ever actually killed an animal.
No one?
That's what I thought.
I've killed deer, chickens, chipmunks, squirrel, and some other small pests. Yes, I did gut and clean the deer and chickens myself. And yes, I did eat their tasty fleshy meat.
It's an interesting choice to accuse people in general of never having gone fishing before.
If you thought they were saying noone has ever killed their own meat, you are missing the point.
They should formulate their point better so you don't look silly when you leap to their defense.
If you think I look silly, sure. All I'm saying is all of the meat advocates that jumped to attack the OP are missing the point.
Now, why would you all misconstrue what they said so bad? Are you all seriously arguing that even close to a substantial percent of people hunt for their own food?
Maybe, just MAYBE, they weren't talking about all of you who actually have, and instead were making a point about how the vast majority of people in at least the US have not and will not hunt their own food in their lifetime. The number drops if we only consider those who actually provide for themselves with hunting rather than treat it as a sport with meat as a bonus.
No you are right, they must have literally meant that noone has ever hunted ever. That makes much more sense. Definitely doesnt say anything about your reading comprehension.
I get it, they are coming for your meat, probably your guns too. Life's rough. Keep up the good fight.
🙋♂️ Am I still allowed to eat it?
How many beans have you harvested? How many bushels of wheat have you grown? None, damn I guess that means we all have to starve to death.
No one has every hunted. I mean, I have, but no, no one.
I went hunting but I got bored.
Thrill of the hunt, my ass! I fell asleep on a log.
🙋
I went crabbing and the resources I found said that killing them before cooking them was likely more humane than boiling them alive, so that's what I did.
My old neighbor's cat once left a paralyzed/twitching rat outside my door, which I found in the morning. I quickly realized that the rat was not going to recover (it had already been there for hours), so I had to figure out a way to quickly end its suffering. I did not eat the rat though.
🙋♂️
Parents owned a hog and chicken farm. Pro tip: never eat a rooster. Awful meat.
I also used to go fishing and hunting with my parents all the time. I love me a good catfish.
I have eaten rooster before, its more a gamey like taste or more intense compared to chicken
Maybe the one I had was just bad or something. I didn’t enjoy it.
Took a chance on the lemmy demographic and lost. There's actually a pretty diverse group here I'm finding.
I have butchered squirrels, deer, turkey, snakes, catfish, goats, pigs, and rabbits. Went vegetarian two years ago for ethical reasons though, so I guess I don't get to raise my hand lol
Lol, are you trying to say something?
Do you use a phone? Well, you cant use one unless you build it yourself...
Even if you added "for it's meat" at the end there, I have killed and eaten fish.
But the way you said it, who hasn't swatted a fly or mosquito? Not to mention the skin mites and fruit flies you consume daily.
🙋♂️
Down here it's a pretty common hobby. I just got a new .308 last year for this explicit purpose.
🙋
Duck, rabbit, fish. It’s not uncommon for people to hunt and fish.
I mean homesteading is pretty popular
Fuck yeah brother, every invasive carp I can remove from my local river and stream ecosystem is a big WIN for everybody around me.
I cut their throats and leave them in the reeds for scavengers to feed on.
I do this with a big fuckin' smile too, knowing my local DNR fines ignorant folks who release invasive species into my waterways.
Edit: am strictly catch-and-release when not reeling in invasive cunts. I don't even used barbed hooks because I'm not a dick bag.
Such a strange combination of sport and killing. Which part do you like best?
Just here to remember everyone that insects are indeed part of the animal Kingdom.
👋
🙋 I've hunted deer, gutted and skinned them myself too. The tenderloins are great sauteed, and the rest of the meat is good ground (just don't cook it as long as hamburger, it's more lean).
If you haven't realized yet, vegans dont care about hunters.
Factory farms are hard to make an argument for though.
I'll give it a shot anyways, to play devil's advocate.
I only buy a vanishingly small percentage of the amount of meat produced by factory farms every year. So I feel the same percentage responsible for perpetuating that system, which isn't nearly enough to keep me up at night.
Hey we can all just work to be better versions of ourselves, and theres a lot of ways to make progress. Considering I'm the only vegan in my family, I likely buy more meat than you do.
Its really just important to me that people dont allow themselves to stop growing mentally and morally. Its sad when people behave like they have all the answers to everything already.
The replies to this are chefs kiss
Everyone talks about the annoying vegan, but look at all of the rage-induced replies from the meat eaters.
I counted maybe a dozen strawmen? People really are resistant to any kind of change, even the thought of it.
I have been fishing before with friends and watched a meat animal get decapitated on a relatives farm out of curiosity
Also watched a mongoose get drowned as part of pest control on the same relatives farm because they eat chickens
Never felt bad about it and enjoyed learning about It
Oh and I've massacred countless amounts of mosquitos but I don't eat them
Fish? Sure, but a hunting trip is pretty expensive. Though I get your sentiment
I have. I note several responses from people in the thread who have.