Lemmy.ml tankie censorship problem
I feel like we need to talk about Lemmy's massive tankie censorship problem. A lot of popular lemmy communities are hosted on lemmy.ml. It's been well known for a while that the admins/mods of that instance have, let's say, rather extremist and onesided political views. In short, they're what's colloquially referred to as tankies. This wouldn't be much of an issue if they didn't regularly abuse their admin/mod status to censor and silence people who dissent with their political beliefs and for example, post things critical of China, Russia, the USSR, socialism, ...
As an example, there was a thread today about the anniversary of the Tiananmen Massacre. When I was reading it, there were mostly posts critical of China in the thread and some whataboutist/denialist replies critical of the USA and the west. In terms of votes, the posts critical of China were definitely getting the most support.
I posted a comment in this thread linking to "https://archive.ph/2020.07.12-074312/https://imgur.com/a/AIIbbPs" (WARNING: graphical content), which describes aspects of the atrocities that aren't widely known even in the West, and supporting evidence. My comment was promptly removed for violating the "Be nice and civil" rule. When I looked back at the thread, I noticed that all posts critical of China had been removed while the whataboutist and denialist comments were left in place.
This is what the modlog of the instance looks like:
Definitely a trend there wouldn't you say?
When I called them out on their one sided censorship, with a screenshot of the modlog above, I promptly received a community ban on all communities on lemmy.ml that I had ever participated in.
Proof:
So many of you will now probably think something like: "So what, it's the fediverse, you can use another instance."
The problem with this reasoning is that many of the popular communities are actually on lemmy.ml, and they're not so easy to replace. I mean, in terms of content and engagement lemmy is already a pretty small place as it is. So it's rather pointless sitting for example in /c/[email protected] where there's nobody to discuss anything with.
I'm not sure if there's a solution here, but I'd like to urge people to avoid lemmy.ml hosted communities in favor of communities on more reasonable instances.
Did that months ago; defederated completely when they turned into Lemmygrad-lite. At first I missed some more active FOSS communities, but since then, others on different instances have become more active.
programming.devhas a lot of communities that overlap with some of the bigger FOSS ones on.mlso maybe check out what they've got.If there's a community that only exists there, be the change you want to see: create it somewhere else, nurture it, and give it time to grow. You're not the only one making this complaint about
.ml, and you probably won't be the last.Related: I genuinely feel that
mlbeing the official or at least de-facto flagship instance is turning people away.Edit: Oh yeah. Didn't recognize your username at first, but I was looking at the modlog the other day from my LW account, and saw a bunch of individual community bans from Dessalines and wondered what was up. Figured it was something exactly like this, and it was. Thanks for sharing.
Maybe we should open a thread on [email protected] about this
TIL that community existed. thanks!
What? I thought I pinged you there a while ago! Anyway, have a look, there should be some topics you might find interesting
May have been my LW account? I mostly use it for my mod role, but I'll switch to it sometimes and browse all there to look for new communities I might like. Perhaps it was that account and I only interacted from there? (My memory is terrible these days 😆)
I don't remember, you'll see a post with a lot of pings, one of your accounts should be there 😄
Did you ping in the post body or comments? I learned a month or two ago from someone that mentions only generate a notification if they're in the comments.
I made sure to ping in the comment for this reason. Actually now I'm curious, let me have a look
I had actually considered Lemmy before The Great Reddit Exodus. Lemmy.ml turned me off from that.
Now we have Kbin (you can make it, my love!) and Lemmy.world, and I feel much better.
I... don't think Kbin.social is going to make it. Even if it comes back, too much trust has been lost. Ernst should have stuck to just working on his coding project, not also administering his own instance, b/c that carries with it a certain level of "always-on" responsibility - e.g. I have unfortunately had to block Kbin.social lately, b/c nearly all (>>99%) of the spam that I currently see on the Fediverse was coming from the communities on it. Since I blocked it, I think I've seen like 1 single spam post for the past month.
So Kbin.social is turning people away too, for different reasons.
Mbin seems healthy though?:-)
I want to use Mbin, but all Mbin instances are federated with tankie instances, including hexbear.
And Mbin doesn't make it easy to see user/community instance.
I gave up on the Kbin/Mbin style entirely - it sounds nice to Federate with both Lemmy and Mastodon, but I don't like the interface.
Can you not do personal user instance blocks like you can in Lemmy as of v0.19.3 half a year ago? That would be an absolute deal breaker for me too. On Kbin.social though it was not an issue bc they were defederated at the instance level.
Kbin, please come back to me
I really want Kbin to succeed, but Ernest seems to see the project as something he checks on once every few months and then ignores, but he still seems to want to be the only one who gets to make decisions. I get that he has stuff going on in his life, but the solution to all these problem starts with communicating and working with the community, not disappearing for months at a time and refusing to work with the people who try to help him. You just can't have a successful project with an approach like that.
That's why things have largely continued with mbin. Ernest couldn't do it, so someone else who could has taken over for him.
Is it possible to see who is behind a mod action? I've figured something like world news on ml has some compromised fascist actors as mods but if it's the main creator doing this then that's crazy
There's an instance level setting to hide moderator names from unauthenticated and/or non-mod users. They probably have that enabled. Those actions federate, though, so the mod names won't be hidden if viewed from an instance that doesn't hide the mod names.
It should be noted that the (visibility of) community bans are a result of better enforcement of site bans in 0.19.4, which for now is implemented by sending out community bans for local communities when a user gets instance banned: https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy/pull/4464
Prior to this, when a user got instance banned from .ml, they were also implicitly banned from .ml communities, but this was only known to the instance they were banned on. As a result, users were still able to post, comment, and vote on those communities, but it would be visible only on that user's instance, not federated anywhere else. Visibility of this ban was exclusively on the banning instance's modlog.
fyi @[email protected]
Is there a way to search for/browse communities on a single instance?
I use https://lemmyverse.net/
You can search for all communities of all instances, or click in a specific instance.
https://lemmyverse.net/instance/programming.dev/communities
You can in Tesseract, but AFAIK, that's the only UI that lets you browse remote instances. Otherwise, you gotta go to it directly, browse communities, and copy/paste the URL into your instance and search for it.
Happy cakeday.
Shit, so it is (depending on tiemzone) lol Thanks!
It is actually tomorrow but there's a bug that causes the cake symbol to appear a day early in the default UI, because 2024 is a leap year.
Ah, gotcha. Without doing the math, I assumed it was basing it on UTC or something.
Haha thank you for the info, I have been quite confused about this. At first I thought it was because it was already tomorrow in Australia, but then I checked a world clock and it wasn't even close 😅
Literal fucking tankies. I wonder if they will ever come to their senses. Oh well, it's not as if there aren't Nazi instances somewhere on fedi as well.
A hexbear in that thread is literally claiming that "the soldiers did everything they could to avoid hurting him" when there's a photo of him lying dead on the street after the tanks have gone through. They don't think it's fine, they're saying it didn't happen (curious)
Was it actually him? I was under the impression that history did not relate what happened to him afterwards, nor who he was. That's not to say the CCP did not murder a couple of thousand people during the crackdown regardless, because they did, but I have never seen a verifiable claim that a picture of any particular corpse actually was the Tank Man. There are numerous theories I've seen floated over the years alleging what may have happened to him afterwards ranging from him being caught and imprisoned, executed, living anonymously in China, or fleeing to Taiwan. All of them are unverified and, of course, mutually exclusive.
The tank operators absolutely did attempt to (and succeeded at) avoid running him over. That much is plainly visible in the video. Whatever happened after the video ended is undocumented and pure conjecture. Plenty of well documented atrocities actually were committed that day, before and after that moment, so there's not much sense in inventing new ones and bickering over details we haven't actually got.
Of tank man? The guy in the famous photo?
Where's the picture of this? I've never heard that before. It doesn't appear in his Wikipedia page, it just says there nobody knows what happened to him after.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank_Man
That photo (I've seen it circulate on the internet myself) is a photoshop. Every reputable source says that no one knows what happened to that man, and we have no evidence whatsoever of him getting run over.
He is bundled off to the left by other protestors, nobody knows what happened to him, there is no photo of him dead.
This loony bullshit is why tankies go full useful idiot and parrot shit most of them know isn't true. The right-wing disinfo about Tianamen square - or any other communist atrocity - is so widespread. Tankies think that the most ultra counter-narrative will somehow combat that even if its just as loony.
ah the trolly problem defence
Inaccurate - the tankie pulling the switch would be smiling
And there would be more people on the track.
Just a heads up, while it is established that the CCCP killed tons of people on that day, the idea that people were crushed with tanks is disputed in academia and mostly considered inaccurate news reporting.
The famous "tank man" photo shows a guy standing in front of a tank in order to prevent them from moving tanks to another part where the protesters had gone. We have no evidence that he was driven over by that tank.
Those "academics" are wrong.
We know this because there are photos of bodies and bicycles smeared into a paste [Source. Warning Blood/Gore].
And because people who were there literally said that's what happened:
The CCP has desperately tried to cleanse the most brutal images and interviews of the massacre from the Internet, but even 30 years on they can't completely scrub it clean. There's a reason The Pillar of Shame monument is designed as it is.
There are photos of people clearly crushed by tanks?
No but the red paste is most likely explained by the tanks that were verifiably there. They could have crushed people with other machinery but they had tanks.
Imo, when tankies get that bad, they might as well be nazis.
I've defended lemmy.ml in the past when people have blamed the entire instance for the actions of a solitary, overzealous moderator, but this genuinely concerns me:
This must have been action taken at the instance admin level, considering all those communities have different moderators.
Is there any way to probe the modlog to see which account it was?
I can't see those, specifically, but a similar pattern of mass community bans after even remotely criticizing an authoritarian regime is completely on brand for Dessalines.
I don't have record of the comment that triggered these, but when it's something like civility, it's usually just a comment removal and maybe a single community ban.
Imagine that - a white dude who appropriates the moniker of an actual slave revolutionary as a symbol for his "cause" might be cringe and unhinged.
See https://lemmy.world/comment/10467647
It seems this is just a new feature in the upcoming relase (the communities ban).
Interesting.
Still, site bans for criticizing China is just as bad, if not worse as mass community banning.
Yes, but that fact is well known and at least this shows there was no particular intention to chastise the user - it was just a button press.
The punishment was easy, so the intent wasn't as great. You know, the difference between a bullet to the head and repeated bashing with a rock. I'm sure in all these instances, the lack of effort was a relief to the target of the action.
Every point can be supported with an analogy bad enough
Gonna put this out there. Ended up in a thread on ML the other day. The poster/admin got a little unhinged, over 4 down votes. 4. Took to the admin panel to see who dared down vote him. Convinced he had been the victim of the tiniest not swarm ever.
It's troubling behavior for anyone with power.
Lol, is that why they removed scores from the API? 😆
Downvotes are public on Lemmy fyi. There are interfaces that show who voted on a post or comment.
For admins, yes. I was pointing that out in the picture of the responses I posted. But not for General users.
Even regular users can see them through other federated services like kbin AFAIK. They show up under likes and dislikes.
I see downvotes
I can see them through the lemmy reader app I use.
You gotta admit, it's very suspicious to be massively downvoted (25, not 4) over an inconspicuous comment that merely highlights a few paragraphs of the linked article.
I know I would also be wondering if there was a pattern in the origin of those downvotes.
I would imagine that if an admin is doing this the modlog could simply be faked, you wouldn't be able to trust anything that the instance is reporting to the outside world.
This is actually more evidence that the Lemmy devs run a modified version of the code which gives them the ability to, eg do things like dole out mass community bans. There is also some evidence that they selectively federate the mod log as well. It all points to the obvious conclusion that these people can and will abuse their power in any way they can.
I'm pretty sure any admin could do that with their Lemmy server, couldn't they?
Yes, an admin probably has access to community level moderation rights and the lemmy API is not difficult to figure out.
It would be trivial to come up with a script to go through the community page, get all the current communities and iterate through them banning a user in each of them.
I have had comments removed and could never see why. Now I just block their instances.
They roleplay as communist censors since that's all they can afford to do from their positions.
Only admins can do site bans. What you're seeing is a hacky/temporary feature of the upcoming Lemmy v19.4, of which lemmy.ml is running the pre-release: when an admin bans someone from the site (temp or otherwise), it also automatically bans them from any community they have ever participated in. Lemmy.ml has always been the "beta" instance for new releases.
Ah, that makes sense. Thanks for the heads up.
They specifically obfuscate which mods take what actions so you can't appeal or even defend.
Tbh, also harass a mod. People get quite worked out when being moderated, and being a mod is enough work without people chasing you to argue with you or straight up harass you, I suppose. At least, I can see plenty of good reasons to hide the moderator name.
Then have a mod box or something. What they currently do is, "Post removed. Reason. Rule 1."
No details, no appeal, nada.
What does this have to do with showing mod log? Genuinely confused
If they act on a post or comment, there's no way to ask why or see what their actual reasoning was. So it allows blanket censorship without a paper trail.
It does, but it's an online forum, not an essential service, and easy to replace. On the other hand, being there with your name or nickname exposes you to harassment from those pissed at you for your decision.
I would say it's an acceptable evil given the circumstances.
As a side note: asking why after a mod action is almost universally pointless. Moderating is free work and a level of subjectivity is implied. I think not having the ability to argue is infuriating but understandable.
My experience with them is you can't even find the modlog if you look when they remove comments. I guess they don't federate it and/or it only shows if you're logged in?
Good incentives to block their instances.
To quote the reason why calling out mods by name is forbidden from a previous encounter I had with them: "removed for doxxing"
So yeah I think you're giving them too much credit here
I am not sure I understood. You called some mod by name and they removed the comment? If that's the case, I perfectly understand and agree with the decision tbh.
That said, this is a general argument, not referred to any particular mod. I think that many people get angry when their content is moderated and they might want to harass/argue/avenge against the mod who took that action.
You agree that tagging the username of a mod (wasn't even one it was an admin) is doxxing? If so, you're delusional.
Mod names are visible by default on my instance so if taking a look there and then mentioning the username you see there is doxxing good luck with the rest of your life. You can't have a system where everyone can easily find out who performed a mod action and then claim you were "doxxed"
No sorry, you said name as in the person's name, I did not understand "username".
well in this particular case it wouldn't have mattered, I used the username but the admin in question has their clear name set as the display name (which made the whole "doxxing" claim even funnier to me)
Perfectly reasonable to ban someone from completely unrelated communities like mechanical keyboard and arch Linux? Come on. It's not like they're throwing out toxic terms or criticizing on a personal level. They're questioning the way things are being modded. Those aren't even attacks.
They banned from the instance. Apparently the fact that you get banned from hosted communities is just a new feature.
The criticism is warranted. They don’t even equally apply their own rules depending on context
I think you have a very different definition of "perfectly reasonable" than most people.
People are naive if they think the .ml admins and devs don't intend to keep their thumb on the Lemmy scale. More instances need to take this threat seriously and defederate from .ml, and possibly even fork the Lemmy repos for when the devs inevitably decide they want to start building quiet exploits into the code. There are serious cyber security implications here that people are sleeping on
I've been banned from .ml for being a 'racist' for being anti-Xi, despite the fact that I am Chinese, and pointed out my ethnicity as such in the discussion. I guess antisemitic Jews aren't the only weird accusation getting thrown about nowadays.
As a marxist, I'm myself tired of how tankies deals with criticism. And I don't even understand how people can stay with "Stalin was not so bad", knowing that he never planned to apply the last state of the Communist theory, and even if it did, massacre are not acceptable (sounds obvious), same applying with China and their open market.
In my country (France), Stalinism isn't a thing, all communists are against what happend in USSR, and most are anti-china.
As others have said, the only option available currently is to leave the instance and re-create your beloved communities elsewhere. The Lemmy.ml Admins also happen to be the ones actively developing the Lemmy code base, and they’re not gonna change because they feel entitled to do whatever they want, and technically, they can because they run the instance.
My best advice is to move on from the instance.
If you want to get away from the Lemmy codebase entirely I can vouch that mBin works quite nicely. I've been on fedia.io for months now and only once or twice hit some kind of technical problem, which was resolved quickly.
MBIN FTW. KBIN has been "We are working on resolving the issues" for some days now. I hope Ernest is ok.
I have a login for lemmy.ml, as I have several from when I was switching over from Reddit. I'm thinking from what I'm reading here, that it's not an instance I want to associate with.
Yeah, nothing against Ernest but developing and running kbin is just too big to be a one-man show.
Dude's a superhero, and needn't be a 'lone ranger'. Agreed. As the Fediverse expands, it will be the work of many; it just has to be that way.
I do hope he eventually finds a balance that works both for him and for us. I greatly prefer Kbin, when it's, y'know, up.
Agreed! And yeah, still down, I just checked.
Are there mobile apps yet? Because if no that's one huge advantage Lemmy still has over Kbin/Mbin, and it's why I switched to Lemmy when Artemis started having issues (it went down completely since) instead of going back to Kbin.
https://github.com/jwr1/interstellar
Oh, cool. That one flew completely under my radar. I'll have to check it out when I have time.
Don’t forget about piefed it’s amazing and lets you subscribe to posts and/or comments. Theres someone who contributed Lemmy API compatibility to use some Lemmy apps with Piefed instances. Its still very early but so far its extremely promising and the codebase is in python and the main developer is focused on ensuring it wasy to contribute. Check it out: https://piefed.social
Code is on codeberg which is great too https://codeberg.org/rimu/pyfedi
Agree and just to add to this: the official list of mbin instances
Well since all major lemmy instances seem to hide mod names in their logs, we don't know who the banning mods are.
Lemmy.ml also has the funny quirk that it doesnt have a proper legal imprint or team list afaik. So we don't have actual transparent information on who is on that instances admin team and who is not. Iirc only one of dessalines and nutomic is on that admin team anymore.
This Dessalines?
Creeping the admin logs to find out who dared down vote him.
I hardly see what that would accomplish if we could.
People keep bringing up that because of the devs history with that instance, "surely it is the Lemmy devs themselves who are doing this". Which hurts Lemmy's reputation overall.
Actions have consequences
I guess some mod actions could be considered accidents or mistakes instead of bad actors. A transparent system would have a flow to allow the user to contact and get such a mistake rectified, or report a wrongful mod action to an admin.
But if the admin is a problem, then that needs more figuring out how to get one removed.
the only one who can remove an admin is a more senior admin, and they can already see behind the "mod" alias.
your point seems moot
as a communism sympathizing leftist, i hated these mods on reddit and i hate them here. the behavior is idiotic
The mods of the non-political subs need to move elsewhere, eventually after that the content will just be tankie bullshit and everyone can just defederate them.
Thanks for shedding light on this! I will do my part and no longer post in communities tied to lemmy.ml!
I think all instances need to defederate. This is totally inexcusable. We shouldn't be attached and well connected to a CCP-controlled (influenced or directly) community. This is propaganda, pure and simple.
It's not a problem to have dissenting opinions to widely held beliefs, but it is a problem to have those injected constantly into our streams while all opposition is silently erased and curated to artifically support state-sponsored CCP propaganda.
Thanks for spreading the word. We get these complaints every few weeks. More people need to be educated and move away from these instances to make the Threadiverse a better place.
Sad to see. Feels like Lemmy has no bright future with people in charge of it thinking russia's and China's government is good and ban difference of thoughts, opinions, and beliefs.
Lemmy.ml is a cancer on the Fediverse. If we want it to survive, we need to cut it off.
Tankies warming up to call you and Lemmy.World fascists in 3, 2, 1...
Not only do they delete truthful responses that contradict their ideology, they often do it in such a way that it is untraceable by other mods. I'm not sure how they accomplish that, nor is the admin who messaged me letting me know that it was happening and he couldn't figure out how. Anyways, my solution has been to completely block that instance, and delete my account there. If they want to exist in a little untruthful echo chamber, then so be it, but I don't need to be a part of it. I recommend you do the same thing.
If they have database access, which they would have being the admins, they can do anything.
The Lemmy devs are .ml admins to boot.
Pretty hard to boot when they own the instance
Ah, I meant “to boot” meaning “in addition to”
Ah, makes sense!
Their mod actions usually do federate out, but their outgoing federation is a bit borked right now with some instances, perhaps due to the recent upgrade to Lemmy 0.19.4-rc.6. I believe they are at least aware of it now, though they have been basically non-responsive to the issue so far.
So it seems they do indeed clean up the modlog... my bans are still in there, but all mod actions where they removed China critical comments are no longer there.
It is extremely obvious that the .ml admins run a malicious version of the Lemmy code which gives them additional levers of control. This alone makes them a serious threat to the entire fediverse.
It is not obvious, most likely not necessary and in any case completely unproven. Why are you so busy making stuff up in this thread?
There's a ton of misinformation on this post and some of those spreading it seem to be vigorously doing so.
That is EXACTLY what is done on lemmy.world.
https://lemmy.world/modlog?page=1&userId=1129088
Nice, didn't know there was a possibility to see deleted comments, thanks :) (not every deleted comment is there though, but enough to show the total hypocrisy of lemmy.world)
https://beehaw.org/modlog?page=1&userId=4130334
https://lemmy.ml/modlog?page=1&userId=1782109
It gets difficult to find them sometimes, depending on who removed it and from where. If a moderator, from the community, removed it then the removal reason could have originated from where the community is located at, whereas if an administrator of an instance removed it then it would be elsewhere.
For all that the lemmy.ml admins enjoy going on sprees of mass-removals, it sure would be nice if they would add to the code a way to see the reasons for removal linked to directly from the comment itself.
Oh yeah, that's the other one, thx!
I did not even get a notification for that comment why it was deleted, but now I see, and sure enough - it's misinformation (despite providing 5 or 6 links to sources in a comment below, including reputable western (!!) media and tens/hundreds of footages...). 🤷♂️
I've had this happen to me, I was chatting in a thread with some guy about IP theft and plagiarism at universities- a legitimate discussion about a current topic- and all my comments were suddenly deleted for "xenophobia". I let it go but its still really jarring and annoying.
I'll go out on a limb and guess China was mentioned somewhere
Which community was that?
world news lol, Thats probably why. It was a comment under an article on that topic and they went censor-crazy.
Whenever this topic comes up, I find myself wondering what these folks do all day. Not in a Boomer "don't these people have jobs?!?" way, but more ... what is it like to be them? Do they just sit in front of the computer looking for conversations to disrupt? What is their daily existence? Because I find their volume and dedication to what they do fascinating. Cancerous and absurd, but also fascinating.
I'm all for defederating from tankie instances. They suck.
Thanks for bringing this up, it's really needed.
Your example is just one of many I've seen. The entire instance seems to be engaged in an opinion shaping campaign where only this gross mix of Western doomerism with Russia/China-glorifying fascism is allowed to thrive.
I don't know how to best deal with such indoctrination chambers. Their members become completely divorced from reality and there's no way to pull them back from the brink because anything you could say to that effect gets moderator-deleted. Yet vice versa, they can freely spread their propaganda and engage in "raids" on other instances.
Unfortunately, lemmy.ml is run by lemmy's actual developers and will likely remain one of the most popular instances. Best thing to do is block the instance and host new communities on other instances.
Its about time people bring up the .ml tankie problem. Lemmygrad was defederated but .ml was ignored due to basically being their PR instance. This is the main reason I have stuck to kbin social despite it having a lot of spam and errors and why I am now on Mbin.
Decentralization is good for everyone.
Tell that to the Chinese government lol
Everyone should defederate from .ml, and most have already got rid of hexbear and lemmygrad.
It's an absolute shit show of an instance, and the rest of us don't want to be subject to their nonsense.
I just wish the instance block prevented me from seeing their users as well.
I would have become a socialist way sooner if Tankies weren't so prominent. 'USSR good' is not a great selling point.
I moved from .ml because of this. Haven't had a ban since and can still interact with .ml communities
The thing is, the Fediverse, link the original concept of the Internet is flexible and can survive losing nodes - it just routes around and issue. If there are problems it can mutate and survive.
This is the best solution - the answers are in our hands. Communities only thrive because the users are.posting and interacting on it. If the Mod goes inactive or an instances goes down, we can switch to a new community. That then gains the momentum and goes on to thrive. It's survival of the fittest and why having more than one community on a topic (especially big topics) is a feature not a bug because it gives the network flexibility and resilience.
So if there's an issue with lemmy.ml, boycott it - unsubscribe, give the other communities on more agreeable instances your time and they will grow and prosper. If there isn't a relevant alternative start one.
Lemmy prevails.
Thanks for calling this out. I will stop posting content to lemmy.ml. What is the next best alternative to lemmy.world? I have nothing against lemmy.world, but would like to spread out content to different sites.
You just made me realize that I have been banned from some of the communities over there while never having posted on them, mods are reading conversations in other communities and preemptively banning people...
I am one of the removed comments and just found out about it here. Does the Lemmy standard really not send direct messages to users when one of their messages was removed? If it was an actual Rule 1 violation (which of course, it wasn't) I'd like to know.
Same. I've only ever made one post, and it wasn't to lemmy.ml, nor have I made a significant number of comments, yet I was banned first from the instance, then from the communities, for allegedly spamming. I asked in the Matrix chat linked in their sidebar, and they suggested I message dessalines, so I did. He rejected the message request.
If this is their ideal of Lemmy, then Lemmy is dead on arrival.
Agree.
On the other hand nowadays now most of the communities are on LW (https://lemmyverse.net/communities?order=active) so at least it's a bit better compared to a year ago.
Indeed. I'm still on /r/RedditAlternatives to talk about Lemmy, and I usually have to explain that most of the instances do not share the political stances of the main devs.
The situation here is a bit tricky: instance admins still have to debug the software (as they are the ones using it), and they have to interact with the Lemmy devs. Getting too much friction with them could break that collaboration, and leave everyone with worse software.
https://sublinks.org/ is still under development, hopefully once it will be ready instance admins will have another option to potentially replace Lemmy
The Lemmy devs have expressed several times that they don't want to interfere on how people use their software (e.g. admin the instances and mod the communities).
Which is good (and allow us to say that they can't indeed interfere with Lemmy as a whole), but that also means that they won't be the one "cracking down on bad actors"
https://gui.fediseer.com/ might be something along those lines, with a chain of trust between instances
this is why you fediblock lemmy ml and h*xbear
Tankies are modding many communities here as well. The solution is to fight them tooth and nail.
.ml = Marxism-Leninism
This wasn't obvious to me because ML could also mean the country of Mali or machine learning, but based on their content and moderation patterns, it's unmistakable that the ".ml" in Lemmy instances like lemmy.ml and lemmygrad.ml stands for Marxism-Leninism.
Hope that clears things up.
As you say OP, the solution here is to use the fediverse model as intended and use different instances/communities. It sucks because it fragments the community, but that’s the way it is. I’ve long held the opinion that I’m grateful to the lemmy developers for building this whole thing that we all get to enjoy, but their approach to administering an instance is reprehensible and actively damaging to the relatively free and open exchange of ideas that should happen on the fediverse.
They will ban you for comments that are so inert it's impossible to even know what offended them, it's ridiculous.
I am surprised that my comments on that post weren't removed.
It is pretty horrifying that there are people in positions of moderating what thoughts are allowed to propagate who deny or cover up the events that took place in Tienanmen Square.
Tankies gonna tank. Just block their shit instance and move on with your life.
So what you're essentially saying is that these moderators are effectively propagandists/state actors for China, Russia, and so on. I left Reddit to get away from psychic attacks like that, so I'm perfectly happy to defed from the instance. Glad I have the option, too.
I think this is a core problem of lemmy as it is right now. This place is meant to be federated and decentralized. Instead it is heavily centralized as communities lie on one instance. What one needs should be federated communities as well. Like say c/[email protected] is the same as c/[email protected]. this way one could subscribe to communities on your home instance and if the home instance defederates from one other instance the community can defederate from the community on that instance without completely breaking apart
I’ve been making fun of Lemmy.Ml for months, I’m glad to see I’m not the only one
They're also hyper sensitive and generally toxic with their reflex delete/ban/block. They'll see what they want to see in the most mundane comments and nuke an entire thread. Best to just block them and ignore.
I don't mind being banned from the ml instance. The issue is their users come to all the other instances and use the same old strategies to stifle any speech by engaging extremely hyperbolic language and name-calling. The goal is to have a chilling effect on any discourse where their opinions are scrutinized in the slightest.
They can't engage with any topics or offer counter arguments. Every response is:
"I don't know how to respond to your argument. You must be a _____________[insert 'racist' or 'genocide defending' or 'fascist' or my new favorite 'zionist']"
I've been censored/shadowbanned in a couple .ml instances for calling out their overzealous comment-nuking mods. Not even political in nature, just seeing threads where 80-90% of the comments are 'removed by moderator' and commenting how suspicious it was.
Then they removed that comment, and after taking a screenshot of the new comment calling out that, I got shadowbanned and can't even vote there anymore.
Yeah, I've been banned because I said something about Uighur genocide, on the other hand I'm wondering about dessalines' nationality and his knowledge about communism, it's easy to be communist of you only touched it online, I for example live in post communist country and remember some of it, old people are talking about it, it wasn't that good
I'd "understand" if everything would be transparent and they admitted it's tankie instance and you're banned because you don't like China but no, everything is against their own COC
Do we want someone like that not only administrating the oldest Lemmy instance but developing the whole platform?
The confusion about how the protocol works for new users is real, and suggestions that 'any instance is fine', although true in a technical sense - is a little misleading, firstly when you're not used to how fediverse stuff works, but also when bizarre rules about no swearing or NSFW content are applied at an admin level. I first started on .ml, but moved here after some deliberation because people can tailor their feed and content through joining communities, not having their instance hyper-politicised by ban-happy tankies. (I'm very progressive myself, before it's claimed otherwise)
I think the blurring of the lines between developers of the Lemmy open source project, and admins of the lemmy.ml instance is a self-sabotaging and tone-deaf reflection on the site, and hurts chances of wider adoption. Of course admins are entitled to their own opinions, but the entire purpose of communities like this is to try and decentralise the problematic censorship which has ruined reddit (among other issues). Having faith in the users and mods to consider content and conduct with as impartial as possible development and administration is vital to the site having any chance of being transparent and worth-contributing to.
I don't want to see the whole concept of Lemmy written off by outsiders because their first experiences of the site are of the rabid circlejerk messageboards instead of a new and exciting format for online content with greater interoperability and user control. To this effect, I'm still on the fence about defederating with those communities at a user level, but I think that I'm going to make a more concerted effort to make content and foster the communities I want here, so that .ml fades into insignificance - I don't want to feed into their narratives of persecution.
I wanna call on @dessalines, and @Nutomic, among others, with the greatest respect for their views and contributions to the project, to put the future of the platform ahead of turning it into an echo chamber - either by relinquishing themselves from one or the other (admin/dev), or by the admins collectively creating a clear policy about politicised banning to acknowledge people's concerns about this behaviour.
I was imagining something like this in hexbear or lemmygrad, as people there seemed quite dogmatic at times, but even on Lemmy.ml? Sad to see this, as I had mostly positive interactions there till now
I think unlike on hexbear and lemmygrad, most lemmy.ml users simply don't know, and many communities hosted there are bona fide. I'm not throwing stones at them, it's the admins of the instance that I have a beef with.
Stuff trickles down though, so that it's not solely the admins, even if a large number of the userbase are innocent.
I'm throwing stones. Lemmy.ml is toxic and people managing communities there are partly to blame.
The hexbears realized that EVERYONE blocks them. One particularly humorous youtube even did a "One of the great things about lemmy is that you can block particularly problematic communities. Let's use hexbear as an example. Please follow along" gag to show how to block an entire instance at the user level.
Since ml was generally sympathetic to tankies, if not full of the idiots, the hexbears basically just joined that en masse.
But yeah. Caught a ban for racism/xenophobia because I questioned what positive benefit accelerationism would have for the Palestinian people. Reminded me way too much of attempting to interact with hexbear so I used that as an excuse to just start blocking any .ml community that I see in my feed. Not QUITE at the point of blocking the whole instance but... I expect to be there by the end of the month.
i've noticed a butt load of lemmygrad names appearing as lemmy.ml these days. Seems they got tired of existing in their little de-federated bubble
They won't get paid if they don't effectively spread propaganda.
Lemmy is far too small for any actual organized propaganda machines to target. These people are just zealots
Nonsense, go take a look at Hexbear or Lemmygrad. There's very little moderation here, why wouldn't they target it?
There's plenty of moderation there, it's just highly biased.
There aren't enough users on lemmy for a state actor to bother putting resources into controlling the narrative.
Why waste time on a few thousand lemmy users when there are literally millions of gullible boomers on facebook that actually vote based on what they consume on social media?
"Here" as in the fediverse generally, not "there" as in Hexbear.
The Fediverse currently has over a million active monthly users, and had more in the past. You think it's not worth it for them to spread propaganda to a million people in an environment they can manipulate? Come on.
Interesting, do you have a link to the video?
Not off the top of my head. It was one of the various "tech" youtubers who will do everything ranging from "here is how to set up proxmox" to "I tried five twitter alternatives for a week" videos.
No worries, thanks anyway!
Chinese honey pot
For people who want to avoid all content from lemmy.ml, including posts and comments:
I use lemmy.cafe now because it has defederated with lemmy.ml.
As a lemmy.cafe user, I don't see any post/comment from lemmy.ml users at all.
Communities on lemmy.cafe are invisible to lemmy.ml users, so I would recommend creating more communities there.
I agree completely. Blocked the instance only now despite them becoming more and more annoying each month.
LW needs to defederate from LML so that they aren't being spoonfed users from the biggest instance.
Hello,
Are they? Most of the communities are rather on LW: https://lemmyverse.net/communities?order=active
[email protected] is moving to [email protected]
Is there any community you need that doesn't have a LW or another equivalent on another instance?
I was among reddit refugees a year ago and it took me a moment to notice what was going on ml and their communities were more significant in comparison to what we have today.
One of the reasons I'm on sopuli.xyz now is that it was one of the first reasonably big instances to defederate hexbear outright. Hesitance and outright hostility to defederate it from some instance admins was also worrying.
Sopuli is cool
I'm not new to Lemmy but only just recently started being really active. Can you explain to this OOTL user (and perhaps others like me) that don't know what went down with hexbear?
If you are familiar with the term tankie, hexbear is the china-fan tankie instance and lemmygrad is for those lusting after Stalin and the soviet union.
Lemmy.ml is a bit more low key about it, but equally authoritarian communist when it comes down to it, as evidenced by the op.
Especially the hexbear users have an extremely argumentative instance culture and will even brigade comment sections critical of the great leader, so most users and even instances block them outright.
Best to read it in their own words. That post really makes it clear how (in their own POV) other places should be linked to from hexbear solely for the purpose of making fun of them, and possibly to increase their engagement stats e.g. upvoting b/c otherwise it gets lonely just being on hexbear.net all by themselves. The only time they acknowledge the effects that THEY, the users on hexbear, have on OTHER communities is to state how fun it is to "[have the opportunity to] dunk on these lost [ones]".
They are aware, and are even happy with how they are, and not only do they not mind being defederated, but they preemptively are defederating themselves from other places, as they said "As an admin team we have never wanted to prioritize growth". They are an instance by and for people who enjoy making fun of others.
But don't stop there: the comment section is where the real fun is at, and/or you can do the maths yourself too:-). e.g., they point out how the admins went to all the trouble to collect those votes, then threw them in the garbage and did the precise opposite of what the votes wanted and instead defederated anyway. Look at lemm.ee for instance at 41:4, that's 91.1% for remaining federated and only 4 total votes, 8.9%, for defederation. aussie.zone was likewise 27 for vs. only 19 against, and programming.dev 27 for vs. 19 against - but they defederated from them all, despite how the (quite noticeable) majority of voters in each case indicated that they wanted them to remain federated.
In contrast, those other instances like programming.dev defederated from hexbear.net too, but only for purely technical reasons to avoid confusion by users not knowing the intricacies of how federation works - in their own words: "Weve added them to our blocklist as well so theres no one way conversations".
TLDR: hexbear.net is not a "nice" place to visit - go there if you want, but like 4chan it's not generally considered something that you want to stumble upon by accident, and it's definitely not something that most people on the Fediverse want. I almost quit the Fediverse myself entirely after making the mistake of
posting(edit: commenting) there, but fortunately for me v0.19.3 came out and I could instead simply block hexbear.net and lemmygrad.ml and now I enjoy being here:-).This is all so strange. I really appreciate the breakdown.
It sounds like they got the tyrannical administration they lust over in the politics related comments I've seen there so far, though! So, good for them!
Exactly - I'm 💯% okay with them living their best life, probably I shouldn't be but I just am, so long as they don't spill out and then infect others with their BS antics (which inevitably seems will happen when they are allowed to incubate like that, self- reinforcing that that behavior is "okay").
But I am also concerned about new potential Fedizens - like is this a place that I can keep recommending to other human beings, or will they see that and just nope out? As I almost did myself bc all of it - lemmygrad.ml, hexbear.net, and apparently the admins at least of lemmy.ml - it's just so fucking much for a new person to take. Someone who is versed enough in Federation matters can deal with it, but for those who cannot yet distinguish between what makes us great and those sources of toxicity horrible, it all will blend together into a big grey bucket of suck.
As ironically the comments to that post on hexbear I linked said too - they (the ones who weren't outright leaving as a result of that decision) were calling for stricter moderation practices bc they were aware that the lack of that was giving hexbear a bad name. And now here we are too, saying similarly at the next higher level up of the Fediverse itself as a whole.
Welcome back!
Hexbear are known to be quite argumentative about politics, leading to most people blocking the instance overall at the user level.
That's basically it, if you want more details you can have a look at the instance itself, you should get what I mean quite fast.
I regret looking haha but it was enlightening. Almost literally every single comment was someone angry about someone they've never met. It was like they were manifesting their ideal enemy in their comments to be angry at them.
Whew. Definitely avoiding that.
World grew MASSIVELY around the time of the reddit mod strike.
In the time since? A lot of those communities are basically full of people who can't stop talking about their ex while constantly re-posting everything they see there. And... the lemmy world admins made a few controversial decisions and their method of removing problem/"problem" users made a lot of us uncomfortable. Piss off an admin and your entire comment history is wiped in an instant and your ban reason is unverifiable.
Whereas ml already had communities that existed to talk about the topic of the community rather than what reddit was talking about.
Is it still the case? I found most the Reddit discussions happening on [email protected] nowadays
So long as any active communities on .ml end up on the front page, they will inevitably draw attention away from less censored spaces. An interesting one is [email protected] which tends to rise and fall in popularity in inverse proportion to [email protected].
I agree that other communities have popped up to fill the same niches, so that’s step 1 and 2 done. Completely moving away from them, as OP intends, doesn’t seem like a plausible solution.
I'm sure it's still doable.
Ironically, I've been trying to move a few communities away from LW (to avoid hyper-centralization), and it worked, for instance with [email protected] (compared to the previous [email protected] ), same with [email protected] which replaced [email protected]
Maybe we should bring attention to people about the lemmy.ml kind of moderation (and I guess this post does this quite well) so that they will avoid to post there in the future
It’s difficult to bring attention to censorship by way of active censorship of the censorship. I occasionally wonder whether folks on .ml understand that they’re being fed a very particularly catered experience. At least .ml isn’t the largest instance anymore, otherwise getting the word out would be nigh impossible.
And it was a nice bit of foresight to spread the load!
Great list! One thing I notice is wrong though: lemmy.ml is not merely not appearing among the top, most active ones (communities or instances), but I also don't see it anywhere, even in the list of all instances when clicking Show All? So its true popularity is unknown to that list.
Edit: I see both hexbear.net and lemmygrad.ml, it is only lemmy.ml that does not show up there.
Hm, good point, I never noticed. I'm pretty sure they were around a few weeks ago, probably a network hiccup indeed.
Maybe your instance has defederated from it?
Also I think the activity level is measured as activity from your instance, not globally.
No, my instance (discuss.online) has defederated from lemmygrad.ml but not hexbear.net or lemmy.ml and yet I see the former two but not the latter, so it definitely is something special wrt just it alone.
Also with the URL being to https://lemmyverse.net, I don't see how it would even know which instance is "mine"? e.g. I have an alt on startrek.website, which does not block any of those three instances, and another old one on Kbin, but how would it pick?
I suspect rather that there was a network hiccup or other problem obtaining the activity data. But in any case, it's not like "activity of lemmy.world > activity of lemmy.ml", and rather more that the latter is unknown to that website.
Btw I nominated your discussion to the BestOf community at https://lemmy.world/post/16213730 - since you cannot do that yourself, someone else needs to nominate it for you. I hope that helps spread the word some more bc this is a very valuable discussion that needs to happen imho. Thank you for your efforts to improve things for many people in the Fediverse:-).
Yeah, I made a specific point of avoiding participation in any .ml groups for that very reason.
No, we want EVERYONE to feel welcome.
Pretty sure they are creating alt accounts on non-tankie instances.
Is there a way to message instance owners/admins? I would propose that lemmy.world defederates from lemmy.ml asap. Post
I agree with the facts here but have a slightly different conclusion. This is a problem that exists on many similar platforms like Reddit, etc. If you give mods or admins unlimited power over their users, it is an almost foregone conclusion that it will be abused in some circumstances. While Lemmy.ml is perhaps the perfect storm of a bad example, I’ve seen examples of abuses of mod power from almost every community on both Lemmy and Reddit.
So how do we fix it? Migrating to different communities or instances can sometimes help, but the potential for abuse remains. Having more options for active communities and making migration easier is a step in the right direction. Despite its flaws, Lemmy is an improvement in this respect because its federated nature allows more choice in who has power over you, but the problem remains.
In my view the internet has always worked best when problems are solved democratically rather than autocratically. Content aggregators already allow for this to some extent in what content is presented, but moderation remains quite undemocratic. I think it may be that a new platform with new innovations to make moderation decisions more driven by community consensus instead of owners or founders of communities will be needed. Exactly what this will look like, I don’t know, but some brainstorming might be in order for the next evolution in social media.
Very true, I saw a post about censorship posted on [email protected] that happened in [email protected] (instead of another instance with the same subject community) possibly because of this reason OP mentioned. This complaint post was also deleted from the community because it was violating the rules which I suppose it was since this was the reason:
The title of the post in the picture above was the reason given by the comics mod:
My unpopular opinion however is that simply de-federating won't help as it just promotes those instances into becoming louder echo chambers. I think the simpler solution would be to have a dedicated community for mod abuse (I'm aware of [email protected] but .world blocked /c/piracy so...) , so users can be aware of said issues and create or migrate to different communities as we see fit. Besides, users can simply block entire instances for themselves. Please don't comment on the paradox of tolerance as I just mentioned blocking for oneself already.
P.S.
Devs please make it easier to browse the modlog, having to press the next button is bafflingly tedious. I had to resort to editing the url to browse faster, add a jump to by time/date or something.
How about something like elections? A community could vote to change its "base instance" to another instance. Example, ask lemmy community vote to change from .ml to .world. It's possible to do this by just not posting in the "old community", so maybe community cloning and community hopping could be the solution.
I think any censorship heavy instance doesn't deserve attention in the fediverse.
If more people would just block that instance and it’s childish admins/mods, this wouldn’t be a problem. If people think it’s exaggerating to call out the clowns at .ml, I’d definitely urge you to look into the posts/comments the remove and their reasoning.
Most are violations of Rule 1 where there is clearly no violation.
Others are removed simply for being “liberal” or “blue MAGA” which neither are violations of any rule, and the latter is just a childish nonsensical insult. Which IS against the rules.
Having said this- it’s their instance and their community to do with as they please. If the freedom to disagree violates their emotional safe-space and hurts their feelings- then they don’t deserve your traffic and interaction. They have no intention to help grow lemmy, because it’s easy to see by their example that choir preaching only appeals to the choir.
Just block them and forget they exist.
made a community rn ![email protected]
I fucking hate tankies, but.
The problem i have, every time this conversation happens, is that cutting them out doesn't solve anything, and that I don't want to be coddled.
The 2 main issues we have, as lemmy at large, is that there are some wildly uneven standards enforced across instances and that we have no say about that. There was that hugbox instance that would ban people for being rude and yeeted itself into the void, there was hexbear that got de-federated for its mods actively encouraging being subversive (despite its users receiving intolerable psychic damage after 5 minutes in any lib space where people are free to call them names, or was that lemmygrad?) and now we're talking about removing lemmy.ml for the fact that its mods are somehow sentient pieces of actual shit.
And while I agree to all of those reasons, I don't think defederating is the answer.
Every time we fragment the fediverse we make it overall worse.
Average users don't even understand what they're looking at when it comes to decentralized networks, let alone can they understand that there's politicking between instances and such. If I were told "you can make an account on instance x or y, but they don't talk to eachother so if you want to see stuff on instance y you can't make an account on instance x" as a rando, I would go back to reddit, the only reason I didn't is that i really hate the app and I am tech/net savvy enough to handle this.
I am a tad more radical when it comes to speech than most, and I accept that, but I do believe that these people have no power so long as they can't abuse moderation, so the answer to the question "how do we handle open propagandists", to me, is to create perhaps a "moderation neutrality charter" and making it very clear which instances subscribe to it, having each instance's moderation team maybe be required to weigh in on appeals to bans from other instances to ensure a certain amount of balance.
That would take care of that real quick. They can subscribe to the charter and start abiding by neutral moderation standards agreed to across the board by some democratic standard, or they can defederate themselves.
That's actually something twitter does right with the idea of community notes, that for the note to be published it needs to be agreed on by multiple parties that don't usually agree in those votes, to ensure there is a bipartisan agreement.
I know this is perhaps too lofty for a ragtag group of essentially microblogging self-hosters, but a man can dream.
Tbh this is one of the reasons why I'm looking forward toward Sublinks
What is that?
And thus the inherent dichotomy of a decentralised social network is revealed: social networks require the network effect for good senses of communities which means one instance will end up hosting most of the bigger communities, therefore true decentralisation can't occur on Lemmy but it's a step in the right direction.
I’ve commented there on a /news community with sourced points to make my argument and was basically told to shut the F up and had my comments deleted.
So I blocked the community.
I’m not sure how to deal with extremist mods any other way. Their instance, their community, and other than defederating and putting a lot of effort into restarting and growing any valuable communities on another instance while keeping the undesirable .ml gang out, I’m not sure there is any other solution.
Sorry you stumbled into the wrong instance. Fortunately, other instances already offer alternative communities that are more active and moderated differently.
This could have been avoided if the UI included a warning about communities with problems. Like how PieFed does: https://piefed.social/post/89659
If their community mods ban enough people, won't they eventually no longer have the biggest communities?
Over the past year on Lemmy I have witnessed a constant fight between people on hexbear, lemmygrad, and ml and people on communuties like tankiejerk, meanwhileongrad, and the like.
Both appear to constantly brigade and overmoderate their respective areas of control. Since my instance: sh.itjustworks, is some combination of defederated to hexbear and lemmygrad, I mostly just see threads like these complaining about tankies. I only assume the effort is being matched by those instances I don't see to warrant this problem being so persistent.
So to me there's so much active bad faith behavior between the camps I assume they all just have a paranoid view of the fediverse and are mostly just perpetuating a cycle of bad faith. Maybe that relationship is terminal if just people can't handle each other.
The old cowardly “rule 1” violation. Why not just filter their garbage from your feed and be done with it?
Eventually lemmy will grow to a point where these communities are moved off that instance.
Fuck China's and Fuck Russia's elite.
That said, reasonable is in the eye of the beholder, and I see capitalism's apologists at this late hour (I'm suffering a reckless capitalist growth/metastasis caused heat dome as we speak along with 10s of millions of other Americans) as just as unreasonable as you see socialism proponents.
Modding abuse destroys communities, and that's wrong. But I don't demand all the communities I frequent spend their days agreeing with me, nor do I walk away unless the entire ethos/subject of the sub is to be against what I'm for. By that I mean, I can generally enjoy talking about a movie, for example, with a capitalism proponent because it isn't generally centrally relevant to the topic.
The point of discourse is discourse. An AI chatbot will be better at feeding one's confirmation bias than any community made up of people ever can be.
Thanks for posting this.
I read the article you posted also.
I think the article is likely entirely true. One of the difficulties I have, as a regular reader not highly educated in Asian politics and history, is that I know Western governments do lie in order to protect their interests. Not only that, many of their rules allow them to lie. There are gag orders, and levels of secret classifications, and ps-ops and we all know that exists.
I am pro free speech and pro protest rights. I think since China does not allow free speech it's likely the entire post is completely true. I really wish I could believe it completely. One thing that many Western pro-free speech countries don't understand is that lying frequently, even if it's sanctioned by the government and justified somehow, means they lose moral credibility with the truth of anything they say. Is it the truth this time... or is this one of the lies?
I still want to live in a world of free speech and women and LGBT people having rights and Western governments seem to be the best at doing this, but I just wish I could believe the article you linked without any doubt at all.
If it's really that bad on lemmy.ml, couldn't all the communities be replicated? I use lemmy.world and don't know if there's an option for me to block lemmy.ml unless I change federations. The plight of the poor and concentration of wealth among the upper classes has become very bad, and environmental problems will likely kill us all within 300 years (capitalism and democracy have environmentally failed) but I don't want to be a part of something in which mere discussion of different views results in banning and deletion of comments, even if I have very pro-poor people views.
The only thing you can really do is create new communities and wait for them to grow.
Happened to me with an even bigger instance because of an asshole admin making shit up. A solution might be to divide up the host of the user comments versus the moderator agents versus receiver of the comments. If your host bans you, that's it, but if the receiver bans you, that only affects their users, and if a moderator agent group bans you, that only bans you from their distribution group of moderator agents but could be read by other groups.
If a community / group-of-moderator-agents-under-a-community-tag-for-a-particular-host bans you, you'd have to find another groups of moderator agents or accept all that are allowed by your host. Accepting all allowed by your host could only realistically exclude the worst offenders - spammers, doxxers, etc - so you'd really be incentivized to find a better block of moderator agents if you want to avoid certain types of comments. People who want to live in a bubble could live in a bubble but people who want to prioritize the greatest participation would try to find the most lenient host and the most lenient moderation agents, at least to their particular sensitivities.
It would be a truer federated model, but this is not lemmy as it is.
Side question, how do you retrieve or see "removed" comments? I get some removed and I'm not sure what they were...
I don't think there is a solution.
Effective moderation to protect vulnerable people needs more centralization. Avoiding the influence of bad-actor mods needs more decentralization. The two seem fairly mutually exclusive. Or rather, they trade off against each other.
With more users, having a fractured community wouldn't be a huge problem, because they could all have critical mass. But with the current user base that is generally not feasible, even for really popular topics.
This seems like a by design thing.
As being new to Lemmy, I do understand what you are saying. There is no balance of conversation - it's I'm taking my ball and going home type of thing.
Rather not all cases, but it does happen.
**People just want a good conversation **
I usually refrain from replying to threads on those instances and when possible use the non-.ml equivalent
That’s a con and a pro of decentralized net: if you don’t like the owner, pick another instance or create your own and be the king. Bad news is, every instance is controlled by couple regular folks who’re not responsible financially so they can imply their own rules and post and ban whatever they want.
Like the jungle: you gotta learn to survive and avoid the monkeys with rabies.
What is their Rule 1?
Shit like this makes people go back to reddit. At least there's more content and getting banned from one million user subreddit doesn't stop you from going to another big sub. Here, if you get banned in one or two of the big instances you have to become a lurker. I take pride in being able to disagree with the dominant opinion in a reasonable way, but these .ml mods are unreasonable.
Note that this is likely just an automated script to ensure all your comments are removed from lemmy.ml before being sitebanned, as sitebanning doesn't remove all content.
That is really the solution though, isn't it.
I just had comments removed for saying there is a lot of Chinese propaganda and spamoflage on lemmy.
https://lemmy.world/comment/23627546
They didn't let me join in the first place lol. They are so weird.
Don't go on the instance
I agree with the sentiment of your post and I won't comment on the other posts that were banned but your image turns into hardcore gore half way through. Like hanged burned bodies and people leaking their brains.
Maybe it was removed for the wrong reason but it's not as innocent as you make it seem.
This is the fediverse and that is their instance. You just move to another instance and mute them if you are desatisfied with them.
Semi-O/T
There's censorship just for having a different opinion. When you challenge someone's belief in any subject... or just simply have a disagreement, you're getting banned. Lemmy is following in the foot steps of Reddit in the sense that it appears that the left/progressives want to be segregated and keep the division. No dialogue, no meeting in the middle.. just ban anyone who threatens their bubble.
There's no need to defederate from Lemmy.ml. I rarely see their content on the front page of Lemmy.world. The other day someone complained that Lemmy.ml users were brigading a different thread. I counted three users with a ml domain...
We have different admins and mods, everything is working as intended. The issue is people bringing up tankies, communists, and China every three posts. Yes, we get it, the benevolent people who wrote us this software are communists. They allow us to have different mods and admins, there is no problem here.
Honestly, I wouldn't post to /c/[email protected] even though I'm happy with how pro-Palestine those people are. The only community I look at Lemmy.ml is /c/[email protected]. It's not their fault no one posts to the Lemmy.world instance.
I think it's time to start banning users who troll other instances and cross pollinate the fediverse with drama.
Use communities on lemm.ee which will have both left and right wing folk. Or if you want to avoid left altogether, Lemmy.world communities, and there are lots of them.
Lemm.ee is something we need to nurture. Great admins that try to avoid their personal biases.
Hmmm... I just got here so I haven't seen it in action, but if true, far left mods abusing their power to censor and ban people they disagree with? Where have I Redd it before?
The solution is... to abandon the notion that there's some special utopia where we might reside.
There's an idea that we all need to find or build some special platform which is going to be a home for all our communities and be transparent and balanced and free from corporate influence and perpetually shiny and awesome. It's not only unachievable but probably not desirable either.
Instead, embrace the reality that the communities we want to engage with will be in different places on different platforms and each will have different issues.
There's some niche communities on reddit, and yes that platform is run by a corporation but that doesn't bother me when I'm only there to find a new recipe for snack that matches my diet requirements. I despise facebook but I do use their marketplace to sell junk my wife buys online. I'm aware of the privacy issues with telegram but that's where I have a family chat group with my sisters. I recently discovered an XMPP channel about DIY bike maintenance which has been amazingly helpful, but I don't like the XMPP clients I've tried. The forum on a torrent tracker I use is a great place to find new books to read but I need to use a VPN to access it.
My point is, the best part of the modern web is the disparate platforms we have available. Every platform has it's own character, and caveats to be mindful of.
The kind of censorship you're talking about is obviously repugnant, but the reality is that it's just something to keep in mind when participating in lemmy.ml communities. You can refuse to participate there if you wish, but a mass-exodus on that basis just isn't how things should work in 2024.
Yes.
To whom?
If people agree with you, they will move and block and defederate. And if they don't they don't.
Sounds like a "you" problem.
Their server, their rules. If they want to run a political censorship social platform, they can and it's totally ok if they un-invite you.
rather extremist and onesided political views...
Sounds like far left and far right are the issue.
Np offense but so what? nothing you post on there is going to change anything, anywhere. You're shouting into a vacuum.
You don't see even a bit of hypocrisy in that? Holy shit...
I have exactly the same complaint about lemmy.world - it's censuring everything that doesn't align with leftist views (and on the other hand, when I post on lemmy.ml it's usually not deleted).
Oh I know, I know, let me guess, they are censoring people because they are evil and authoritarian and are bad people, but you are censuring people because you are all democratic and for freedom and so on and anyway the ones that get censored are tankies and fascists and russian bots/propagandists?...
https://knowyourmeme.com/photos/2355607-our-blessed-homeland-their-barbarous-wastes
Lemmy.world heavily censors criticism of israel over at /politics and /news
.ml is far less tankie than .world.
Join literally any other community if you're upset at their moderation, which again is only upsetting y'all because it doesn't align to Reddit and the US state department
lmao get back to me when the mods on lemmy.world stop deleting every comment that is critical of Biden. STFU. There is no recourse for mods on Lemmy and they can use their powers to delete any comments they want. The only recourse you have is to find a fediverse that caters to your weakass centrist views.
go back to reddit if you want to live in the bubble of "America does nothing wrong"
try posting any pro jewish and/or pro israeli, anywhere on lemmy or kbin instances (watch the votes for this comment, lol)
Watch this!
I think Jewish people are great.
I have so much support for jewish people, and especially those who are against Netanyahu's atrocities
Thanks I think you're pretty nifty too. You're welcome over for latkas anytime
Hopefully yours are better than mine
People are happy and enjoy eating them so I guess I'm doing it right. How are you making yours?
Poorly. I don’t remember anything but that.
I tried twice, and have just decided that I would rather have hash browns anyway. (I can actually cook them)
Upvoted!
What do you mean by "pro Jewish"? I doubt a comment like "Jewish people are human beings that deserve respect" would get you downvoted.
That one no, but there are plenty of leftists in the fediverse that can't understand the concept of "Zionism is not Judaism." And saying such gets you down voted because lol.
I haven't seen that myself, but I'm sure some of them exist and they're dumb for thinking that. The person I'm replying to, though, is clearly taking the position that anti-Zionism = antisemitism.
Not sure if you mean me by "person you're replying to" or someone else. I believe it's someone else but it's a little bit of a confusing sentence.
Either way, it's been a fun couple of months since this bullshit started. With all kinds of dumb takes and arguments. It's enough to make someone say "oyvey"
I meant downpunxx.
Gotcha gotcha
Yeah cause most people on here don't like ethnocentric genocidal states. Sorry to burst your little bubble ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Holy fuck.
Zionism (the political policy supporting the genocide) is not Judaism. How would I know? I'm a Jew and I abhore the Palestinian genocide. Nothing in the Jewish religion supports what is going on nor does anything in our religion say "go be ZIONISTS and kill people".
I don’t think that person was saying that it was
That's possible, the statement is a bit ambiguous as to which part they are "whomp whomp"ing to.
How exactly can a political policy support anything? It's the people who call themselves after an ideology who support it. Not an abstract ideology that a guy invented over 100 years ago.
That's a fair question.
In consideration, take the Jim Crow laws from the USA. These laws enforced racial segregation and allowed for abject racism and abhorrent conditions/treatment of black people. In short, they supported racism.
Now one could say "but the people were the ones to carry it out" which sure, but then we might as well start asking ourselves how much government really matters and other philosophical questions. I don't think the people are innocent, but to focus on your question, that's an example of how political policy and laws can support things. The laws enable the legal environment, the people then carry it out.
First, its obvious that anything pro israeli is going to be met with backslash when they are doing a freaking genocide. Second, downvoting is not censoring, is just people saying they disagree with you or your comment is just stupid/non helpful
If people disagree with me and downvote my irrelevant lie they actually hate Jews fucking gottem
Getting downvoted is one thing. There is definitely a certain bias in the wider fediverse community on this topic, so it's normal that your comments aren't received well. It isn't manipulative and probably an accurate reflection of what the community thinks.
What lemmy.ml is doing is more insidious though. They are manipulating the discussion by actively muzzling users with dissenting opinions.
I'll argue that crocodile tears deserve downvotes, as do bullies.
Im pro jewish, Im pro Israeli, but im so anti-injustice that I'm willing to stand up to anyone pushing for or acting as a pro-war Israel supporter, or jewish as an Israeli identity when it comes to being prowarfare, when they still support what has quickly evolved into a politically strategic genocide against palestinians. Hamas deserved what it got in the immediate aftermath of October 7, but after 2 weeks then 3 weeks then a month then 2 months it showed that despite all of Israels' military and civilian efforts of having an experienced security apparatus steeped in information warfare and threat containment, they didnt have the effective strategic competence to actually wipe out Hamas without having to constantly murder civilians.
But they went ahead and kept on fucking killing.
So now, they keep moving goal posts for any chance of peace. Its not a new strategy, but it has far more violent consequences and only further spreads fervor for more violence. Peace begets peace. One side doesn't get to play that against the other like a ping pong match and expect objective obervers to fall for either side's propaganda.
This is all revenge without justice now.
Take your foot off the throttle.
There's going to be bubbles everywhere. I've been called a troll and downvoted heavily in various communities because I don't hate Microsoft or AI in general, for example.
Kbin.social has been down for like 3 days now so you can’t do this experiment there :/