People also need to be reminded that the 2 party system is a policy choice made by Republicans and the Democrats. We can be free to vote how we want. We can have no spoiler effect. We can have a race to the top, not a race to the bottom.
I hope doing things your way works if yall are truly ride or die on First-past-the-post voting. To continue to try the same thing and expecting different results... maybe it could work. The chance isnt 0%, i will admit that. Its gotta work after all.
This is where I would usually post videos on the flaws of First-past-the-post voting alongside videos going over alternative voting systems with no spoiler effect.
The comments in here are so fucking cringe. If you're not voting democrat then you're aiding republicans. Full stop. Want to know why women no longer have right to an abortion? Why brown people are getting thrown into camps? It's because of fucking dipshits like you.
I am also banned from .ml and LateStageCapitalism. Anyone who isn't insufferable and possesses a functional brain is or will be banned from those wretched hives of scum and villainy.
I don't think the people downvoting this saw the mod who banned kingofras for bad jacketing proceeded to bad jacket someone else in the next thread about this subject.
Lol. I think you got banned from Ye Powertrippin' Bastards by that db0 dipshit right before I did.
It's literally a sub for complaining about power tripping mods and that dipshit is going through it banning people he disagrees with. The irony is supreme.
I went to his profile and he describes himself as an "Epicurean Revolutionary Libertarian Socialist", which had me rolling. How can he take himself seriously?
Yeah, his name is literally "db0" because he's on the dbzer0 instance. Guy's a creative powerhouse. It had to have been him that banned us because the one other listed mod hasn't been active in a few weeks.
Lemmy's great, but it's unfortunate how many popular subs are moderated by a single basement dwelling sad ass powertripping loser. They kill a significant portion of this platform for anyone that doesn't want to slurp their shit up.
And yeah, I'm about to hit my 2 year mark on Lemmy and I can confirm that all these losers are coming from the dbzer0 and ml instances. They are a blight on the Lemmiverse. Same vibe I used to get from /r/conservative and /r/The_Donald. Just pathetic losers.
You nonvoters are the most influential sector in the US— you catapult MAGA to victory every election— you seem to only slightly care about the presidency and are woefully ignorant about your own government’s structure. You are the reason SCOTUS is no longer impartial because somewhere along the way you got the impression it’s supposed to be a politically leaning entity.
Your lack of interest in Civil rights and democracy is about to guarantee your children will spend their adult lives navigating fascism and militaristic law. They won’t know what democracy looks like because they will never experience it, thus ensuring the continuation of fascism.
Well, at least they can still be openly racist so I guess your lack of interest won something…well done!
More like 120 million voted to drive off a cliff and 100 million voted to not, and you live in a region of the bus where your vote doesn’t count anyways because they aggregate by row and your row already leans heavily in the “not off a cliff” camp.
But by not voting I show how apathetic I am and that makes me super cool, and then I go online to brag to everyone about how super cool apathetic I am....wait....am I still apathetic if I go online to brag and fight about it?
But the bus driver supports genocide. The whole bus is rotten. We should let the bus go off the cliff and then build a new bus. I'm sure enough of us will survive the crash to build a better bus afterwards. Many people will die but that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make.
Type 2 also includes the "why's it taking so long? Look at all these people suffering through the collapse. We need to make it collapse faster so we get to the good part faster" people, without acknowledging that this is what collapse looks like: lots of suffering
Yeah but you can just blame all that suffering on the people trying to hold the whole thing together, because obviously if you just let the whole thing collapse then the suffering will end abruptly and a magical utopia can finally descend from the heavens! /s
You joke, but the number of people I've seen posting along the lines of 'I don't this, I'm exempted!' Is extremely infuriating. The individualism bubble has them thinking it's a shield from reality.
Who said there was a good part to get to? Turns out damaging the bus in any manner, whether by driving, inaction, or burning it on the road, is all bad. No one has mentioned hitting the brakes... oh wait, which one of you cut the lines?
But the bus driver said it's going to take a few extra hours to get to the destination because of all the buses creating congestion on the highway. So clearly burning the bus to the ground is the only viable option, and in fact, if you don't light the match then you actually support traffic jams! /s
Just a bunch of moralists sniffing their own farts.
How about nobody in this situation is virtuous.
Go vote for pedo blue and tell yourself how righteous and great you are compared to the other shitty option camps.
Before you bitch and moan at me for differing from groupthink: I will be voting for blue pedo this turn about but I’m not gonna be online in a fart smelling circle with a bunch of do nothing moralists about it.
Please get over yourselves, you vote for slavery that’s out of sight abroad and pedos who eat babies so you can play gta6, you aren’t righteous.
Literally what I’m talking about. Look down on people while you vote for a corporate democrat.
Your comment is exactly what I would expect from someone who just loves the smell of their own shit.
How are people supposed to feel bad about suffering when it’s people who talk down to them like you who will suffer? Maybe I will just not vote with them. Let’s crash the bus.
All in all, a good win for you though. Simpsons memes are always a hoot. I wish I was as moral and just and smart as you.
The fact you assume we aren't holding our noses while we vote is your problem. You take a morally superior attitude while doing exactly what we're doing. Except we don't go around trash talking the people we're voting for a few weeks before the election, since that might MAKE THEM FUCKING LOSE
Your presumptuousness and hypocrisy are disgusting.
Bullshit. Quote me then. Quote me where I say anything close to "I like these candidates. They are my preferred choice out of all proposed options past and present".
You can't. Because it's factually inaccurate. You can't find that shit for most of us. Because that's not how we feel. We're all holding our noses, just like you.
If you can prove otherwise, I encourage you to do so.
You call it clowning, but this is literally the strategy that was used to defeat slavery. The "play within the system" planned was attempted for nearly a hundred years by the Abolitionists. They tried your way again and again. Slavery only ended when they abandoned your way and started a third party.
Except a third party is still voting? I only clown on third party voters when they:
a) split the vote of a single party instead of pulling from both parties and new voters (because it only helps the remaining party cement their dominance in the next election through gerrymandering etc)
b) have clown policies that appeal only to emotion, with no path to implementation (I'm looking at you, Jill Stein and Ross Perot)
Show me a legitimate third party candidate with good policy proposals and a plan to gain votes without guaranteeing the worst candidate wins and I'll vote for 'em, campaign for 'em, and more.
Third party isn't burning the bus down or letting it drive off the cliff. Third party (when done well) is a third bus driver choice. I'm all for that.
"The five non-voters are the true anarchists who see the violence inherent in the system. Actually the two who voted against driving off the cliff are wrong for even supporting a system in which voters can choose to drive the bus off the cliff. They're actually worse than the three who voted to drive the bus off the cliff, because they tacitly approve of driving the bus off the cliff just by participating in the system which allows the bus to be driven off the cliff, while fooling themselves into feeling morally absolved of the decision to drive off the cliff! So the non-voters are the only virtuous ones in this situation"
It's a toughie. Some people think indications of sarcasm ruin the fun.
I'm of the opinion that one should always clearly indicate satire due to Poe's Law.
I like to put it in italics and sometimes attribute it to the group I'm parodying, or if an individual, I add "probably." Observe:
"This entire thread is woke garbage. You should all be ashamed of yourselves. I'll drive this bus off that cliff better than anyone ever has. Better than Biden ever could. Biden tried to stop the bus and fill it with illegals. Putin promised me there's rainbows at the bottom of that valley, and not the radical left rainbows either. The kind that leads you to beautiful, clean, black gold."
- Donald Jeffreyepsteinsfavoritecustomer Trump, probably
Thank you for the clown emojis because I 100% thought you were seroius because of how many fools there are on Lemmy that believe that exact sentiment and they aren't joking. Juvenile fools.
You can fairly reliably tell whether or not such a post/comment is made genuinely (albeit perhaps astroturfically) or sardonically by merit of the instance from which the commenter posts.
in both the thought experiment and the US vote, the genocide happens no matter which way you vote, or if you don’t vote at all… there are no choices that have a real chance of reducing the genocide
How does social collapse stop the genocides? Explain that part in detail, because I'm pretty sure any global socioeconomic collapse will accelerate existing genocides and probably add quite a few more. Like, do you numpties understand half the world dies in your best case scenarios, the first of which will absolutely be all the people being genocided currently?
All citizens have three votes. Their political vote, their financial vote (who they give their money to), and their life vote in how they behave, what that vocally support, if they protest, if they support a revolution or not. Every government today is the product of the third type of vote, people fighting in protest and revolution, often mortally to birth that government. It's our job as citizens to vote for the government and world we want.
The dumbest thing is how we still haven't done anything close to what France and other countries are doing to actually make their voice heard. Won't change my mind. Yes, you should go vote. You should also overthrow the government.
Fucking non-voters complaining why the democratic party doesn't cater to their whims, never connecting that it's because they don't fuckin vote. But you don't become a tankie through reason or logic.
I vote in every fucking election. I am a former paid Democratic campaign staffer. I also will not cosign on a genocide nor will I vote for any candidate offering less than full-throatednsupoort for trans rights.
I love being Schrodinger's voter to ShitLibs like you though. Pick a lane: either my vote is worth enough that the DNC should have to earn it by stepping over a bar that's on the fucking floor, or my vote isn't needed and the DNC doesn't have to cater to me. But if you're telling me it's my fault when the other capitalist shitweasels win, I'm gonna have to tell you it's the fault.ofnthe party that doesn't care enough about my vote to piss off their Wall St Paymasters to earn it.
You're an accelerationist, a lying ass tankie. You get republicans elected, you're responsible for everything they do. You have more blood on your hands because of your ignorant principles. You help them kill trans kids. Fuckin worthless single issue trashbag MAGAt ass mindset. You work for fascists. Like a cop but somehow more stupid and useless.
I don't care if it hurts them or not. I'm not voting for a lesser evil or a greater one. I'll vote my conscience, and if more of you did we'd live in a better world.
There are loads of people who think you can't demand better from your elected officials. People were out protesting Mamdani for being a liberal zionist and I saw plenty of commenters saying how they must've been paid opposition because how could anyone be criticising Mamdani?
Uh-oh. You promoted voting. Time for all the dbzer0 and .ml chodes to show up and tell you why you shouldn't do that.
Which, of course, is all the more reason to vote. If you do the opposite of anything anyone from either of those instances say, you are almost assuredly doing the right thing.
If you sit on the fence as the fence burns down, you'll end up in the dirt with everyone else.
The real kicker is that the guy driving the bus is being paid to drive it off a cliff by the company that makes buses so that they can sell us a new bus even though no one will be left to buy it because the bus futures boost their stock price today.
But also remember to meet your neighbors, form communities, and join political groups before Election Day.
It’s important to vote, for sure, but if we aren’t part of the selection process that provides good candidates that’s when it feels useless. This is especially true for everyone that hates both parties.
Yep voting is distasteful but necessary. People often forget the second half. Of running unworthy hacks out on a rail when they inevitably turn on you. Primaries are some of the most important though often neglected votes. Along with organizing and supporting actual good candidates from the community.
I already early voted but I continue to get 3-5 political mailers every day. Not only will they not change my mind, it won't matter even if they do. I wish I could unsubscribe.
I know you guys won't, because your job is to convince as many people as possible not to vote after all, but god do I yearn for the day when the Democrats start to appeal to non-voters by other means than "at least we're not as bad as the other guy". If you think that this is an effective strategy, you might just be able to wrestle defeat from the jaws of victory. Just keep letting marginalized folk know that they shouldn't count on their lives improving, because you're commited to doing just slightly better than the opposition. Don't campaign on promises of anything materially better, only on being paid off by the same interests groups as the "other side", except for the fact you're going to keep doing those things they paid you for - but politely. And if you think that the existence of my argument against your strategy on the internet is going to ruin your chances for it working at all, and you're going to blame those arguing against it for your loss while you're blasting the same old points of "we rape and murder arguably less", then BOY can I figure out the results it's going to bring.
Anyone who was going to vote for the lesser evil is going to do that anyway. Anyone who's on the fence will most likely decide to sit this one out (again). Claiming it's someones moral obligation to vote for terrible (but slightly less) people is going to depress votes, exactly as it did with Harris. Change your strategy or lose.
Just fucking... talk about the affordibility crisis and your plans to end it. About universal healthcare. About how Israel is a bunch on genocidal bastards. Just anything other than this proven, time and again, losing strategy. You have a field full of targets and a loaded gun. Only way you can miss is if you point it at your head. Or go further right to win MAGA voters, I guess...
Selective hearing. It's insane how often people complain about Dems not doing something when it's literally part of their party's policy platform and has been for a while.
Or how often I see someone complain about something the Dems aren't doing when it's something their party or their president literally passed or signed an EO for. People just don't pay attention. And then you list out the bills or EO's in question and they move the goalposts and cry harder to compensate for their inability to pay attention.
Do they need to do more? Duh. Do they actually get stuff done? Yeah, they actually do. And compared to the other party that only works in opposition to Americans, they technically get infinitely more done than their opponents.
It's a combination really. Of Dems not being good at messaging and people just not fucking paying attention.
Messaging is hampered when the message is delivered by people who oppose you. The Dems don't need help to shoot themselves in the foot, but they get it anyway.
I am, despite not being from USA I am following the midterm races from the imperial core because I know their results will affect my life, the way they did in previous elections. This post, and the vast majority of the propaganda spouted by Dems, is exactly that, though. There's more criticism from the estabilishment Dems towards politicians that do make those points, like Mamdani or El-Sayed, than towards their opponents in the White House. And what does most of them do say about their plans in office? How do they campaign? Exactly the way you see here. And don't get me wrong, I want bad politicians to lose and good ones to win. It's good some do have reasonable strategy, they will do better than the dumbfucks who keep blasting that uncommited voters that don't care about politics as much as they've been taught not to care, that just want to get through their hard day of work and worries - that those voters have to to make time to go and vote for slightly less known Epstein associate. It's not even that I want those dogshit politicians to lose, though I can't claim I see presidency of Newsom going better than Trump's in terms of quality of living for people in USA, but probably noticably better for me in Europe. It's just that they WILL LOSE AGAIN unless the messaging capabilities of the propagandists improve.
She did but all we got was 24/7 coverage of "what do you have to say about israel Palestine" because apparently ukraine doesnt exist and neither do Americans or our healthcare or iran or any other issue in the world that she was infinitely better on.
I think I would have heard about it if she had talked about how Israel is a bunch of genocidal bastards.
Mostly because she would have won the '24 election. It really was down to single-issue "uncommitted" voters in a few states. The exact number of people who voted "uncommitted" in the primary would have turned the election and made Harris president. The DNC has access to all this info just like I do. I dunno why they would wanna lose over supporting Israel, but they did.
if you are presented with a bus driver that, every once in a while, presents you with the choice of either driving off a cliff now or reporting the decision to later, perhaps you should try everything in your power to take control of that bus so you don’t risk death every time
Too many don't, they vote and consider it done with, but the voting is not the solution part of this. With how things are, particularly under FPTP voting systems, it is mostly holding off the worst of it until enough people feel disenfranchised enough to either not bother or vote for some far right conman or another...
Our only way out is by building systems of mutual support for ourselves and one another, but regrettably voting is much easier than that, so it rarely happens.
And yet so many people don't vote. And even more people don't vote in primaries.
Like, I genuinely believe that if everyone just voted on the primaries (incl. for local govt) we'd be fine. That's where the problem really lies IMO. We get shit candidates because nobody shows up to vote for the good candidates in the primaries.
Voting will not save us, huge numbers of problems stem from fundamental imbalances in power, power which the political class require in order to impose their will (or that of whomever they serve further up the chain), even when their will is genuinely benign.
Voting just decides which people (with already powerful people/structures frequently playing an outsized role in exactly who you get to choose between) get into power, then this power both alters their brain and causes their lived experiences to diverge from those of the electorate.
Our solutions need to include a fundamental redistribution of power or we are just maintaining the conditions (a key component being the concentration of power centres, which has been dramatically accelerating for the past few decades regardless of how people have voted) that will lead us right back here. This redistribution is not going to come from people who, however pure their intentions, require power over others to fulfil these intentions.
I won't discourage voting,^*^ but we have to stop pretending that we just need the right rulers and everything will be fine, voting is not enough.
*Although I do understand people; particularly in FPTP safe seats; who choose not to play their part in the theatre of pretending that we are granting them some kind of justified authority over us- if not one single vote was placed, they would just choose how to distribute power amongst themselves after all, they wouldn't leave the seats empty to reflect the outcome of the theatre, because that isn't where their power actually comes from. This becomes clear when you consider ideas such as designated survivors, they collectively assume power over all of us and have a clear delineation of the rulers and the ruled.
If a primary motivation is fear of the 'wrong' people getting into power, that structure was not built to serve you.
That was a whole lot of words without actually providing a single recommended course of action. I continue to hear a lot of general have waving and dissatisfaction from people who say we need a new system, but fail to describe that system in any meaningful detail, or how we will transition to that system without significant bloodshed.
This country has changed a lot over the past 250 years and most of it happened through protest and voting at various levels of government.
You know what the crazy thing is? We have a means to overthrow Congress. We just don't have the state and local leaders to do it. A second Continental Congress is what we need if we want a massive system overhaul. And for that you need state and local governments in sufficient numbers to act without the approval of the Federal Congress.
Voting fucking matters. The likes of MLK are a once in a century deal. Everything else happens through protest and voting at a variety of levels.
The problem is that people hear "go vote" and all they think about is federal level general elections.
We are going to have bloodshed no matter what, when state power feels threatened it will lash out violently, we don't get to decide this.
There is already bloodshed, and there always was, states fundamentally rely upon violence to enforce their interests both domestically and internationally. The point is to finally stop this cycle.
Personally, I feel that our best hope lies in parallel power structures, so the best place to start with that would be in trying to organise members of your community to get together and sort x problem yourselves. It doesn't matter what the problem is, it's fine to start anywhere, it just seems to me that an important step is in people realising how much power they have when they work together.
Everything else happens through protest and voting at a variety of levels.
That is just simply not true, unless you use a very broad definition of protest which goes up to and including the Coal Wars, but given the general sentiment I expect you have calmly marching along and begging for your masters to consider you for once in mind.
Even if it was true, you still haven't attempted to address the power problem that I discussed at length (that being the point of my comment, not the broad solutions that you appear to deem a requirement), I have fulfilled your arbitrary demand, now please answer what I actually said.
Edit: Also, to respond to a comment centred on voting not being a solution due to the fundamental structure this takes with "actually, you just need to vote more", without even mentioning a single point I raised, is incredibly obnoxious.
No thanks. You've just admitted your position that you expect, and welcome, bloodshed as a necessary part of progress.
I have no interest in engaging with an anarchist who won't even consider peaceful progress as an option to pursue.
Nor am I interested in further subsidizing the wealthy by digging even deeper into my paper thin emotional and financial reserves to support the welfare of my community any more than I already am through taxes, charity, and personal outreach to people in need. I am already completely tapped out. And any further subsidy is a tacit admission that the wealthy will never pay their share.
So yeah, hard pass on whatever arguments you want to make.
Have a great day/night!
EDIT: No disrespect, btw. You are welcome to your opinion. I just consider the discussion a waste of time because our fundamental goals are too dramatically different.
Not saying don't vote of course, but boy will establishment dems pretend that this is a mandate for them. If you can, vote for progressives, for DSA, for anyone that actually will stand up to fascism.
Too bad it's usually 11 people on the bus 5 vote to drive off the cliff at 60mph and 4 vote to drive off the cliff at 30mph and tell the other 2 that if they vote to not drive off the cliff, the 60mph guys will win.
well there's that ... so there is 20 people on the bus and 11 bother to vote, 2 intend to vote for the Not Driving Off a Cliff Party, and the other 9 are arguing about how fast we should drive off the cliff.
The people in the gray bar in the actual registered voter turnout graph below could band together and vote to, ya know, not drive off a cliff. But they won't, even though they are the majority.
That's the most frustrating part about politics. If everyone who thought "I would vote third party but they have no chance of winning" voted third party, the third party could win. But they don't because it's too risky, it takes votes away from the party they figure has a chance of winning. This is why ranked choice voting is needed.
Put it on the ballots at the local (city, county) level. Measures don't begin with elected officials, they begin by figuring out the prerequisites to put measures on ballots: in some places you need petitions with enough signatures by common people for a measure to be considered, the prereqs vary per locality.
I don't understand the question. The way to get to ranked choice voting IS by voting in people who support it. Why are you asking for a different way to achieve it? Nobody suggested it can be achieved otherwise. The people who are in power need to make the change happen. Unfortunately, Justin Trudeau promised to change the system and didn't. It is difficult to change because those in power don't have much incentive to change the system that got them in power.
It's funny how even when you have more than 2 parties the system still favors a 2 party system. 2025 was strange for Canada because a lot of people voted Liberal to stop the Conservatives, not because the Liberal was a great option. Green party voters are particularly frustrating because they are a single issue party and their entire platform is pretty much in the NDP platform.
There are more then 2 political parties in the USA. First-past-the-post voting chains people to two because of the spoiler effect you are demonstrating.
Yup. I was one of the ones who voted liberal when I'd really rather vote NDP but it was more important to stop the conservatives. This is why I wish we had ranked choice voting. A few months ago, I was randomly called for a survey. When they asked me which party I'd vote for if there was an election today, I said NDP. I want polls to show NDP has a chance of winning so maybe next election they will.
I get it, I have actually held a Liberal party membership at times in my life. But the last election I didn't really see much of a difference between the LPC and the CPC, I think we'd be in the same place today if the Cons won.
Ive said it before and I'll say it again. While I'd rather have an NDP government, if my two practical choices are a Harper-era conservative government or a Poilievre-era conservative government, I'd rather the Harper era. One will make some rather shitty business-friendly laws, the other will do that and toss on a bunch of socially regressive ones on top.
Lemmy: Ah, but voting means supporting the means of oppression by the Bourgeoisie thus showing your support of the status quo of lage stage capitalism, and thus by voting to not drive off the cliff you are really enabling the oppression of the Proletariat.
More like 3 people vote to drive off one cliff, 3 people vote to drive off another cliff, 3 people don't vote, and 1 person votes not to drive off the cliff.
The 3 people who didn't vote in your scenario could band together and vote to drive off any cliff or no cliff at all. But they won't...because what? Their vote doesn't matter? Not a perfect cliff? Not a perfect non-cliff? Their favorite streaming series just got released and voting is really hard?
Yeah, people voting against their own best interests is crazy. I guess to some people driving off a cliff is worth it as long as they get to decide who pees in which bathroom?
They'll vote to drive off their cliff just to spite the other cliff party. That party wants to drive off the east cliff? Obviously the only way to combat such extremism is to own those motherfuckers by driving off the west cliff
No, they're making a "both sides bad" argument when one side wants desperately to find an excuse to exterminate trans people, and the other is milquetoast and ineffective.
The vote is for the driver. If the driver says they will drive over the cliff, democracy allows us to choose the driver who will drive into the burning building instead. We get to choose, our vote counts. It's beautiful
Yeah that's what people have been saying since like the 1800s. I forgot who said it or what it was from, but there was a post going around last election with quotes from a bunch of different periods of history with people railing against the two-party system and complaining about how every single election it's always the same choice between voting for things to stay the same/get a little worse, or get much worse. Every election it's the same narrative of how this is the most important election' ever where you have to accept the slightly shitty choice to 'save democracy'. Going back 200 years. And nothing has been done to change the system no matter how many times the 'good' party has been in charge, and the gradual downslide into a fascist shithole has continued regardless of who's in charge. No matter how many times people have voted in the 'lesser evil', y'all are still caught in that bullshit trap. Maybe if a third party had been able to gain some ground in those 200 years things might be different, but people like you claim that voting third party is throwing your vote away just as much as non-voting, so i don't even know what to say to someone who's bought in so completely to the fiction that you have any sort of choice in this system. Keep voting and the corporations will keep throwing up shittier and shittier stooges to build the future they want regardless. It's literally the quote from wargames. The game is rigged and the only winning move is not to play. And also to overthrow your piece of shit government/corporate overlords.
Now with another one of these big bogus showdowns looming down on us, I can already pick up the stench of another bummer. I understand, along with a lot of other people, that the big thing this year is Beating Nixon. But that was also the big thing, as I recall, twelve years ago in 1960 – and as far as I can tell, we’ve gone from bad to worse to rotten since then, and the outlook is for more of the same.
—Hunter S. Thompson, Fear and Loathing: On the Campaign Trail ’72 (1973)
I have voted (early). There were people on the ballot I knew I was not going to vote for, even though they would be considered the lesser of two evils. Luckily, there was a third choice which was a better choice than the main two, so they got my vote.
The people who say just voting for the lesser two evils works, well Trump proved them wrong. At some point there has to be a major change.
The people who say just voting for the lesser two evils works, well Trump proved them wrong. At some point there has to be a major change.
I'm not connecting the dots here. How did voting for the biggest evil ever (Trump) prove that voting for the lesser of two evils doesn't work? Wouldn't Kamala winning ("the lesser evil") and things getting worse prove the point? We're not in that timeline so nothing was proven other than the obvious-voting for a wealthy rapist conman who bankrupt multiple casinos is not good for the common person.
The line connecting the dots is Joe Biden, or Obama (Obama didn't campaign on being the lesser of two evils, but that's basically what he was), or Clinton, or... you get the point. Lesser evil Democrats have repeatedly won elections but failed to consolidate their gains into something that doesn't just produce more fascism after four or eight years. Because you can't just win the war; you have to win the peace or you end up losing the next war.
They claim to love Democracy whilst not practicing it or getting upset poltics is brought up in their daily lives. Gotta feel bad for those who chose ignorance above all else.
Wouldn't loving democracy involve having many political parties to represent the many people who live in the country? Why do any blue states use First-past-the-post voting if democrats love democracy? The republicans arent in control in blue states, there is nothing stopping democrats from loving democracy.
The logic the non-voters would employ states that the bus-cliff thought experiment is stupid because obviously they’d vote to not die going off the cliff.
Point being, like republicans, they don’t care until ICE has the gun in their face.
There were so many people honking in support at the rally last weekend. All i could think was, "Please just vote. It doesn't mean anything if you don't act."
Yes, exactly. Deciding that whether or not the bus crashes should be the outcome of vote is what crashed the bus. The scenario painted in the image is absurd. There is no voting in that scenario. You ignore the fucking dweebs trying to get you to vote for the bus to stay on the land and you fucking stop the bus
I’ve been non-ignorant, unwillfully ignorant, and willfully ignorant and I’ve yet to see any pattern in how elections turn out. It always just gets worse.
Every time they vote to crash the bus.
So I don’t think it has to do with my ignorance, willful or otherwise.
Yeah, but there's another bus that's going to hit yet another bus and the people who don't want to run off the cliff aren't trying to stop it so i cannot in good conscience vote for them. And I'll be very smug about it the entire way down.
There are ten people on the bus. Three want to drive off a cliff. Two want to run over an old lady pushing a stroller down the street and then ram the bus into a daycare. The five people who are refusing to vote want a better option but the bus driver has a gun and will only allow us to vote for one of the two options presented. There is no third option.
And once more, not voting or casting a third party vote can also be a catalyst for change but it needs to be done in a organized manner and speak in one voice.
A case can be convincingly made that the Perot vote/non-vote paved the way for the racist MAGA movement and the Abandon Harris movement can also be argued had a very outsized effect on the current batch of primaries in the Democratic party.
But if you're a gen-z male that's just been reported to be sitting out the vote quietly because they're immature assholes that are embarrassed they proved they're just as stupid as the average American boomer, well F you.
What if I didn't even know there was a choice? Have I still made one? I'm usually outside playing with the kids or off working for a living to be too plugged in to the world at large.
There is a 3rd dimension this ignores. When both candidates are bad how do you voice that? How do you tell both parties this is not acceptable? If you hold your nose and vote, how do you stop getting more of the same?
It's a hostage situation, and I understand those who have decided they aren't negotiating with these people anymore.
Remember: if you stick to your morals and refuse to cosign on genocide abroad and austerity at home, whatever the other guys you'd didn't vote for do is all your personal fault. No blame whatsoever may be assigned to the party that felt it didn't need your vote badly enough to stop helping genocide or abandoning Neoliberalism.
-Statements from people who can't tell politics from sports.
NOVEMBER 2028 For President! The actual month of November, serving as actual president of the United States of America America!! FREEDDOOOMMMMMM! I do politic
A system that conjures hypothetical busses careening off of hypothetical ledges to convince citizens to participate in democracy is liberal thing.
Democracy in socialist states is much simpler and effective. The workers control the government and the government serves them. There is no need to whip people into a frenzy.
Nooooo we need more Trump and GOP so Daddy Putin and Dear Leader Pooh can get more power! Please don't vote! Please I'm getting paid to keep fascists in power so please don't look at anything good that the Dems are doing!
Yeah liberals are discrediting their own system when they describe it as being forced to vote for a lesser evil under the threat of fascism every election.
Not to say all liberals describe it that way, but if I was a non-political apathetic non-voter, I wouldn't find that convincing.
Yup, the logic of "obey us or suffer punishment, deviation will be seen as disobedience." Isn't exactly going to endear me to whatever it is you're proposing and, in fact, does everything to make me want to rebel against it.
Whether satire, or trutfully meant- It doesn’t get more psyop than this folks. This psychobabble is what we are up against. This is the ignorance they desperately NEED you to follow. Because they know what happens when they lose.
In the last presidential election, a large chunk of the non-voters were doing it in protest because of the Israeli genocide.
They are the idiots this post is about. Not voting against the objectively worse option just means you're fine with all the harm they'll do if they win.
We had one candidate who wants to nuke Gaza and build a resort, plus start a second genocide at home, and we had one candidate who likely only shifted stances to get the funds needed to campaign against someone backed by billionaires.
The bigots/fascists already have significant solidarity. It's the one thing they're actually good at.
So yeah, we need as many people to vote as possible, because even after all this bullshit I still believe most people don't lean toward bigotry/fascism. There's just a lot of lazy people out there.
Years ago, back in trumps first term, my buddy told me he didn't vote hilary because she wouldn't give him student loan relief. He had 3 daughters. Trump sat his supreme court justices and a few years later one of his daughters died in a hospital due to birth complications because the doctors were scared to treat her.
get the fuck out of here with this both sides bad utter bullshit.
The meme I was looking for was "bombing the middle East" but found only this one, which was good enough considering USA has been bombing Iran both with blue and red presidents
no, the situation is 4 vote to drive off this immediate cliff. 3 vote to drive off the next cliff, and 3 are trying get off the bus or are at peace with their impending doom.
“Vote blue no matter who” is a direct admission that your candidates suck, their stance on issues suck, but you can supposedly buy just a little more time from them then the republicans. except anyone with object permanence knows they don’t acutely fix anything, they ride or die with the republicans, and just use them as the bad guys.
“don’t let perfect be the enemy of good” is bullshit, establishment democrats are no where near good enough, and progressives don’t agree with their stance on: climate change, immigration, lgbtq+ protection, reigning in corporations, resisting genocide, universal healthcare, loosening racially motivated drug enforcement, breaking up the prison industrial complex, breaking up the military industrial complex, defunding the police, establishing ranked choice voting, repealing citizens united, making bribery illegal again, nor establishing term limits.
i don’t care about campaign promises. we already know how they will act, they work for who pays them, and it ain’t us.
by all means vote, but do not let these people use fear to force you to vote for the shortest shit stain
If you're asking this question you need to return to school. And I'm not even trying to be mean. If you can't tell, there is something wrong with your brain and education can probably fix it.
You may not like either side, but it has NEVER, NEVER been like this while Democrats were in control. This is a whole new shit ballgame.
What exactly are Democrats proposing to fight fascism? What powers are they proposing to strip from the presidency? What politicians do you see proposing dismantling the post 9/11 surveillance state?
Because that's what actually fighting fascism looks like. Democrats don't actually want to fight fascism. They just run on it. They have no actual plans to restore our democracy. That requires moral courage and being willing to vote for bills that will literally kill Americans. Democrats don't have the spine to save democracy.
Translating reality to your scenario, there are 3 for one cliff, 3 for another cliff, and 4 who could vote for no cliff if they were actually paying attention.
“Vote blue no matter who” is a direct admission that your candidates suck
Vote blue no matter who is an observation that the other party has gone so fucking far off the rails that voting for the other side, even if they aren't great, is what is necessary to force the pendulum back in the other direction. It's a plea to the idiots that don't vote or vote for 3rd party candidates with NO path to victory to just vote blue so we can put a stop to the very clear and present danger the Republican party represents so we can get back to normal political arguments and work from there.
You're assuming that if the Republicans lose now they'll disappear (or deradicalize) and then you can return to normal politics, but that's not how it actually goes is it? Every time they lose they just come back stronger because the establishment has no answer to the issues giving them (entirely undeserved) credibility. This is why "one more election then we can fix things" has been the rhetoric for decades yet the light at the end of the electoral tunnel never comes; these victories will never stick unless you can make things happen with them, which means the arguments about fixing things must happen at the same time as the arguments about stopping fascism.
How does your vote not matter if there aren't other people to vote? Like what the hell? Everyone is an individual. The "your vote doesn't matter" argument implies you think that everyone else in your community have no free will or agency and can't be convinced one way or the other.
If everyone in those areas decided not to vote because "their vote doesn't matter" then your vote would be able to swing any election.
Theory of mind is a basic skill that everyone should learn.
You know if we just crash the bus sooner everything would be better. Also I hear the driver picked music no one likes - let's cancel him then all argue over what music is crash appropriate.
It's a metaphor for my interpretation of current political discord. Rather it's sarcastic is immaterial the fact that it's getting such a visceral reaction from folks is far more interesting considering it's meant to be nothing more then an observation.
You know if we just crash the bus sooner everything would be better.
So this is your interpretation, or your wording of someone else's?
Also I hear the driver picked music no one likes - let’s cancel him
The driver is trump, and the music is extrajudicial detention of anyone with an accent or slightly browner skin plus concurrent flattening of Gaza, war in Iran etc etc?
then all argue over what music is crash appropriate.
Electoralism got us 12 years of FDR, which permanently changed so many broken things for the better. To the extent that we're all still benefiting directly from it nearly 100 years later.
Uh... the political landscape of early 20th century America does not, in fact, help the case for electoralism. FDR did the things he did to save the system, at least in part from all the socialists running around disrupting it.
If you really believe in accelerationism, then vote for the fascists. That'll get us to the end quicker. If you can't bring yourself to do it, then maybe there's a reason for that.
Sitting around and not voting is either laziness or cowardice. Don't play dumb and pretend it's anything more than that.
That's... not what that word means. Seriously look it up on Wikipedia. The short of it is that accelerationism refers to the idea that actively pushing society towards some kind of failure state faster will result in radical change once the dust clears, making it a good choice if you want to get radical change faster. For example this could be a leftist voting for Trump so fascism comes about, fucks things up and opens up the way for a socialist revolution. For obvious reasons this isn't a very popular idea, but it's also quite clearly not what the parent comment said. There are other ways to do anti-electoralism that don't involve pushing the fascists towards power.
Yeah, and I'm asking him what his other way is to do anti-electoralism. If it's not accelerationism, what is it? Don't worry; I already know the answer.
And why do you think you know the answer? History is full of examples of people effecting change outside the ballot box without accelerationism; in fact that's probably how most of your rights came about.
What does being an anti-electoralist and not an accelerationist mean to you?
So far the only detail about what you want that you've provided is that you want the system destroyed, which, to any reasonable person, sounds completely and utterly juvenile and would inevitably lead to mass suffering and death.
This is what I don't get about the 3rd party tribe. Literally no 3rd party is even remotely organized enough to even come close to winning a federal election, much less local elections. I don't know if any amount of physical brain damage could make me dumb enough to vote for a 3rd party presidential candidate. It's just so uniquely pointless.
And many of the so-called "leaders" do absolutely nothing of what actually needs to be done to foster legitimate third parties. And we do know what needs to be done, it's not a mystery. They just don't ever fucking do it.
To the point where it sometimes becomes suspicious (looking at you, Jill Stein).
Ah yes. Magician Jill Stein. Who magically appears before elections, never has even the whisper of a path to victory, then disappears after the election. Not suspicious at all. Great 3rd party representation.
For the record, she had 0.5% of the total votes cast in 2024, and she was the most popular 3rd party candidate. If people that voted 3rd party could understand numbers, they'd finally realize why voting 3rd party in a federal election is, how do I put it? Stupid.
Leave the country instead of trying to improve it? Sucks for anyone about to be hit by a falling bus surrendered to the people voting to send it off a cliff.
‘Stay and die to make a point’ is way less convincing when it’s your life on the line. Anyone who shames someone (especially a targeted minority) for fleeing a fascist state is frankly unhinged and needs to touch grass. Especially in the case of the US, where simply not living in the country doesn’t negate your right to cast a ballot.
I'm not judging people with their life/freedom at risk deciding to get out while they can. I am judging the person I responded to for saying that voting against fascism is support for fascism. There are a lot of people getting hurt and dieing abroad who didn't have the choice to vote in our elections, and I judge anyone saying that by not voting they are not at fault for what their vote might have prevented.
There was no reason to be hostile about a random thing you assumed which quote honestly may have nothing to do with what that particular Internet rando was even talking about.
I'm sorry if my mild sarcasm was too hostile for you. Saying that people fleeing the country are leaving everyone to die while pretending to be morally pure isn't a sentiment I feel a particular need to be respectful about.
578 replies
To not vote or to vote MAGA, the; outcome will be the same.
And the world will suffer for it.
It's more like one group is voting to jump off a cliff and the other to run into an immovable object at full speed.
vote for whom ?
Nobody is ever convinced by some simplistic, irrelevant fairy tale.
People should be reminded to vote.
People also need to be reminded that the 2 party system is a policy choice made by Republicans and the Democrats. We can be free to vote how we want. We can have no spoiler effect. We can have a race to the top, not a race to the bottom.
I hope doing things your way works if yall are truly ride or die on First-past-the-post voting. To continue to try the same thing and expecting different results... maybe it could work. The chance isnt 0%, i will admit that. Its gotta work after all.
This is where I would usually post videos on the flaws of First-past-the-post voting alongside videos going over alternative voting systems with no spoiler effect.
Those days have passed us by. Good luck everyone.
As a non-American: please vote!!! Your country influences our lives too and we have had enough of that disgusting orange shit! Please vote Democrat
The comments in here are so fucking cringe. If you're not voting democrat then you're aiding republicans. Full stop. Want to know why women no longer have right to an abortion? Why brown people are getting thrown into camps? It's because of fucking dipshits like you.
I always vote but I usually have to write in my candidate.
Vote out the Orange MAGA Turds and bring back the USA we knew before Jan 2017.
Result: 4 vote to drive off the cliff but in different directions.
What if 4 people want to drive off the cliff and 4 want to slowly back over the cliff? That's a more accurate analogy.
I stand by this, I always vote
Abstaining from voting is just a vote to let others choose for you. It does not exempt you from the system.
You're banned from .ml, !latestagecapitalism and r/Pyongyang.
I am also banned from .ml and LateStageCapitalism. Anyone who isn't insufferable and possesses a functional brain is or will be banned from those wretched hives of scum and villainy.
BaD jAcKeTiNg
I don't think the people downvoting this saw the mod who banned kingofras for bad jacketing proceeded to bad jacket someone else in the next thread about this subject.
Probably the same dick who banned me today honestly.
Lol. I think you got banned from Ye Powertrippin' Bastards by that db0 dipshit right before I did.
It's literally a sub for complaining about power tripping mods and that dipshit is going through it banning people he disagrees with. The irony is supreme.
I went to his profile and he describes himself as an "Epicurean Revolutionary Libertarian Socialist", which had me rolling. How can he take himself seriously?
Libertarian lmao. "Leftist" instance run by someone identifying himself as a nazi pedophile. Rich.
Yep I am fairly sure we're talking about the same person. Lol
They banned me from countless subs. I actually at that point realized I never have good experiences with that instance so I went ahead and blocked it.
Yeah, his name is literally "db0" because he's on the dbzer0 instance. Guy's a creative powerhouse. It had to have been him that banned us because the one other listed mod hasn't been active in a few weeks.
Lemmy's great, but it's unfortunate how many popular subs are moderated by a single basement dwelling sad ass powertripping loser. They kill a significant portion of this platform for anyone that doesn't want to slurp their shit up.
And yeah, I'm about to hit my 2 year mark on Lemmy and I can confirm that all these losers are coming from the dbzer0 and ml instances. They are a blight on the Lemmiverse. Same vibe I used to get from /r/conservative and /r/The_Donald. Just pathetic losers.
One effexor capsule at a time I assume
Cuck voting
It’s not a protest, it’s a surrender.
If you think any of this will convince the commies to vote think again
They are only here too sow doubt and apathy in the interests of certain oligarchs
Absolutely! You're part of "the system" due to the fact that you exist...
I prefer this equivalence: abstaining is voting according to the result of the election.
You nonvoters are the most influential sector in the US— you catapult MAGA to victory every election— you seem to only slightly care about the presidency and are woefully ignorant about your own government’s structure. You are the reason SCOTUS is no longer impartial because somewhere along the way you got the impression it’s supposed to be a politically leaning entity.
Your lack of interest in Civil rights and democracy is about to guarantee your children will spend their adult lives navigating fascism and militaristic law. They won’t know what democracy looks like because they will never experience it, thus ensuring the continuation of fascism.
Well, at least they can still be openly racist so I guess your lack of interest won something…well done!
No.
Go vote in October.
More like 120 million voted to drive off a cliff and 100 million voted to not, and you live in a region of the bus where your vote doesn’t count anyways because they aggregate by row and your row already leans heavily in the “not off a cliff” camp.
One side started war with iran while other side didn't
One side destroyed relationship with strongest allies for nothing while other side didn't.
One side went to war with people on the streets with ICE and lowered recruitment requirements while other side didn't.
One side gave us Pete Hegseth while otherside didn't.
One side started tariff war for nothing while other side didn't.
Both sides same though I guess?
But by not voting I show how apathetic I am and that makes me super cool, and then I go online to brag to everyone about how super cool apathetic I am....wait....am I still apathetic if I go online to brag and fight about it?
But the bus driver supports genocide. The whole bus is rotten. We should let the bus go off the cliff and then build a new bus. I'm sure enough of us will survive the crash to build a better bus afterwards. Many people will die but that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make.
🤡🤡🤡
You ever notice how the 'burn it down' people fall into two camps?
Type 2 also includes the "why's it taking so long? Look at all these people suffering through the collapse. We need to make it collapse faster so we get to the good part faster" people, without acknowledging that this is what collapse looks like: lots of suffering
Yeah but you can just blame all that suffering on the people trying to hold the whole thing together, because obviously if you just let the whole thing collapse then the suffering will end abruptly and a magical utopia can finally descend from the heavens! /s
You joke, but the number of people I've seen posting along the lines of 'I don't this, I'm exempted!' Is extremely infuriating. The individualism bubble has them thinking it's a shield from reality.
Oh, I know. Believe me, do I know...
Who said there was a good part to get to? Turns out damaging the bus in any manner, whether by driving, inaction, or burning it on the road, is all bad. No one has mentioned hitting the brakes... oh wait, which one of you cut the lines?
But the bus driver said it's going to take a few extra hours to get to the destination because of all the buses creating congestion on the highway. So clearly burning the bus to the ground is the only viable option, and in fact, if you don't light the match then you actually support traffic jams! /s
Making the downfall faster is fighting stupid with stupid. They are still bringing on the end of the world or whatever evangelicals are imagining.
There will be so much shit to eat your grandchildren will still be at it. I do not understand accelerationism or similar ideas one bit.
Just a bunch of moralists sniffing their own farts.
How about nobody in this situation is virtuous.
Go vote for pedo blue and tell yourself how righteous and great you are compared to the other shitty option camps.
Before you bitch and moan at me for differing from groupthink: I will be voting for blue pedo this turn about but I’m not gonna be online in a fart smelling circle with a bunch of do nothing moralists about it.
Please get over yourselves, you vote for slavery that’s out of sight abroad and pedos who eat babies so you can play gta6, you aren’t righteous.
This reeks of desperation.
Lol. Immediately abandon your morals. You don't have a problem calling them pedos but you'll vote for pedos....this time.
Literally what I’m talking about. Look down on people while you vote for a corporate democrat.
Your comment is exactly what I would expect from someone who just loves the smell of their own shit.
How are people supposed to feel bad about suffering when it’s people who talk down to them like you who will suffer? Maybe I will just not vote with them. Let’s crash the bus.
All in all, a good win for you though. Simpsons memes are always a hoot. I wish I was as moral and just and smart as you.
The fact you assume we aren't holding our noses while we vote is your problem. You take a morally superior attitude while doing exactly what we're doing. Except we don't go around trash talking the people we're voting for a few weeks before the election, since that might MAKE THEM FUCKING LOSE
Your presumptuousness and hypocrisy are disgusting.
Weird, I thought I was responding to your friends doing it first. Crazy you decided it’s my fault.
Your group is the one that immediately goes to ostracizing others.
I didn’t presume shit. It’s all written out before my response to this shit show. If you’re offended, I wonder why?
Bullshit. Quote me then. Quote me where I say anything close to "I like these candidates. They are my preferred choice out of all proposed options past and present".
You can't. Because it's factually inaccurate. You can't find that shit for most of us. Because that's not how we feel. We're all holding our noses, just like you.
If you can prove otherwise, I encourage you to do so.
How does it feel to sniff your own farts while accusing everyone else of sniffing theirs? Does it make the high you get more intense?
No u!
Exactly, all you have is projection...
You call it clowning, but this is literally the strategy that was used to defeat slavery. The "play within the system" planned was attempted for nearly a hundred years by the Abolitionists. They tried your way again and again. Slavery only ended when they abandoned your way and started a third party.
Except a third party is still voting? I only clown on third party voters when they:
a) split the vote of a single party instead of pulling from both parties and new voters (because it only helps the remaining party cement their dominance in the next election through gerrymandering etc)
b) have clown policies that appeal only to emotion, with no path to implementation (I'm looking at you, Jill Stein and Ross Perot)
Show me a legitimate third party candidate with good policy proposals and a plan to gain votes without guaranteeing the worst candidate wins and I'll vote for 'em, campaign for 'em, and more.
Third party isn't burning the bus down or letting it drive off the cliff. Third party (when done well) is a third bus driver choice. I'm all for that.
Oops, all of the people who had the institutional knowledge to build a new bus died in the bus accident.
"The five non-voters are the true anarchists who see the violence inherent in the system. Actually the two who voted against driving off the cliff are wrong for even supporting a system in which voters can choose to drive the bus off the cliff. They're actually worse than the three who voted to drive the bus off the cliff, because they tacitly approve of driving the bus off the cliff just by participating in the system which allows the bus to be driven off the cliff, while fooling themselves into feeling morally absolved of the decision to drive off the cliff! So the non-voters are the only virtuous ones in this situation"
(The /s should be clear, right?)
... are you new to the Fediverse? I encounter such arguments uttered unironically virtually every time I browse here - especially in election season.
You're... not wrong...
Might I should have included a second "...right?" after that statement
It's a toughie. Some people think indications of sarcasm ruin the fun.
I'm of the opinion that one should always clearly indicate satire due to Poe's Law.
I like to put it in italics and sometimes attribute it to the group I'm parodying, or if an individual, I add "probably." Observe:
"This entire thread is woke garbage. You should all be ashamed of yourselves. I'll drive this bus off that cliff better than anyone ever has. Better than Biden ever could. Biden tried to stop the bus and fill it with illegals. Putin promised me there's rainbows at the bottom of that valley, and not the radical left rainbows either. The kind that leads you to beautiful, clean, black gold."
- Donald Jeffreyepsteinsfavoritecustomer Trump, probably
Anakin stare intensifies
You've angered the .ml and .dbzer0 trolls.
Tankie tears are my favorite beverage.
But you do need to build a new bus. You should start talking about how to stop the bus, let out the passengers, then setting fire to it.
Meanwhile: .ML BAD
Thank you for the clown emojis because I 100% thought you were seroius because of how many fools there are on Lemmy that believe that exact sentiment and they aren't joking. Juvenile fools.
I almost added a /s too just to be safe
You can fairly reliably tell whether or not such a post/comment is made genuinely (albeit perhaps astroturfically) or sardonically by merit of the instance from which the commenter posts.
It sounds stupid because it is...
But not from the genocides?
in both the thought experiment and the US vote, the genocide happens no matter which way you vote, or if you don’t vote at all… there are no choices that have a real chance of reducing the genocide
Im glad yall are finally being honest.
How does social collapse stop the genocides? Explain that part in detail, because I'm pretty sure any global socioeconomic collapse will accelerate existing genocides and probably add quite a few more. Like, do you numpties understand half the world dies in your best case scenarios, the first of which will absolutely be all the people being genocided currently?
Pedal to the metal, accelerate!
Appropriate emojis considering the message. Hoping they’re in place of a /s
Absolutely in place of /s
Good to know!!
All citizens have three votes. Their political vote, their financial vote (who they give their money to), and their life vote in how they behave, what that vocally support, if they protest, if they support a revolution or not. Every government today is the product of the third type of vote, people fighting in protest and revolution, often mortally to birth that government. It's our job as citizens to vote for the government and world we want.
Not voting for anyone is also a part of a democracy, so it is completely fine if you dont wish to vote.
But then you should also not be whinning if someone you didn't like won.
The dumbest thing is how we still haven't done anything close to what France and other countries are doing to actually make their voice heard. Won't change my mind. Yes, you should go vote. You should also overthrow the government.
The idea that there is a functional difference between individual choice and collective outcome is apparently insurmountable.
Like all the best analogies, framed in such a way that there's only two options and two outcomes
Nobody is saying you cannot demand better from your elected officials.
But if you sit at home you let fascists win.
It’s not a protest, it’s a surrender.
You can't demand better when you give up the only leverage you have against them.
So you can demand better. But actually taking any concrete action to hold a party accountable when they ignore your demands is beyond the pale.
Gotta love the "logic" of ShitLibs.
You make the critical mistake in assuming that not voting for the Dems actually hurts them.
I'd say they're also happy to be in perpetual "opposition".
So really the only thing not voting is doing is saying that you want more dead children.
Fucking non-voters complaining why the democratic party doesn't cater to their whims, never connecting that it's because they don't fuckin vote. But you don't become a tankie through reason or logic.
I vote in every fucking election. I am a former paid Democratic campaign staffer. I also will not cosign on a genocide nor will I vote for any candidate offering less than full-throatednsupoort for trans rights.
I love being Schrodinger's voter to ShitLibs like you though. Pick a lane: either my vote is worth enough that the DNC should have to earn it by stepping over a bar that's on the fucking floor, or my vote isn't needed and the DNC doesn't have to cater to me. But if you're telling me it's my fault when the other capitalist shitweasels win, I'm gonna have to tell you it's the fault.ofnthe party that doesn't care enough about my vote to piss off their Wall St Paymasters to earn it.
You're an accelerationist, a lying ass tankie. You get republicans elected, you're responsible for everything they do. You have more blood on your hands because of your ignorant principles. You help them kill trans kids. Fuckin worthless single issue trashbag MAGAt ass mindset. You work for fascists. Like a cop but somehow more stupid and useless.
I don't care if it hurts them or not. I'm not voting for a lesser evil or a greater one. I'll vote my conscience, and if more of you did we'd live in a better world.
Yeah that's not what they said (nor implied) though, is it?
"We can demand better! We are still going to abdicate power to you regardless of if you listen but we can still technically make the demands!"
The Republican Party thanks you for your service.
There are loads of people who think you can't demand better from your elected officials. People were out protesting Mamdani for being a liberal zionist and I saw plenty of commenters saying how they must've been paid opposition because how could anyone be criticising Mamdani?
I imagine they were talking specifically about the "liberal Zionist" thing, since it's such an absurdly stupid claim to make about him.
This is bus example is basically what they did with letting Trump loose on the world. Fucking idiots.
"But muh Palestine". Yeah, I am sure Trump was soooo much better for Palestine.
Uh-oh. You promoted voting. Time for all the dbzer0 and .ml chodes to show up and tell you why you shouldn't do that.
Which, of course, is all the more reason to vote. If you do the opposite of anything anyone from either of those instances say, you are almost assuredly doing the right thing.
If you sit on the fence as the fence burns down, you'll end up in the dirt with everyone else.
The real kicker is that the guy driving the bus is being paid to drive it off a cliff by the company that makes buses so that they can sell us a new bus even though no one will be left to buy it because the bus futures boost their stock price today.
But also remember to meet your neighbors, form communities, and join political groups before Election Day.
It’s important to vote, for sure, but if we aren’t part of the selection process that provides good candidates that’s when it feels useless. This is especially true for everyone that hates both parties.
Yep voting is distasteful but necessary. People often forget the second half. Of running unworthy hacks out on a rail when they inevitably turn on you. Primaries are some of the most important though often neglected votes. Along with organizing and supporting actual good candidates from the community.
I already early voted but I continue to get 3-5 political mailers every day. Not only will they not change my mind, it won't matter even if they do. I wish I could unsubscribe.
I know you guys won't, because your job is to convince as many people as possible not to vote after all, but god do I yearn for the day when the Democrats start to appeal to non-voters by other means than "at least we're not as bad as the other guy". If you think that this is an effective strategy, you might just be able to wrestle defeat from the jaws of victory. Just keep letting marginalized folk know that they shouldn't count on their lives improving, because you're commited to doing just slightly better than the opposition. Don't campaign on promises of anything materially better, only on being paid off by the same interests groups as the "other side", except for the fact you're going to keep doing those things they paid you for - but politely. And if you think that the existence of my argument against your strategy on the internet is going to ruin your chances for it working at all, and you're going to blame those arguing against it for your loss while you're blasting the same old points of "we rape and murder arguably less", then BOY can I figure out the results it's going to bring.
Anyone who was going to vote for the lesser evil is going to do that anyway. Anyone who's on the fence will most likely decide to sit this one out (again). Claiming it's someones moral obligation to vote for terrible (but slightly less) people is going to depress votes, exactly as it did with Harris. Change your strategy or lose.
Just fucking... talk about the affordibility crisis and your plans to end it. About universal healthcare. About how Israel is a bunch on genocidal bastards. Just anything other than this proven, time and again, losing strategy. You have a field full of targets and a loaded gun. Only way you can miss is if you point it at your head. Or go further right to win MAGA voters, I guess...
There are democrats talking about those things, you just aren't listening.
Yup.
Selective hearing. It's insane how often people complain about Dems not doing something when it's literally part of their party's policy platform and has been for a while.
Or how often I see someone complain about something the Dems aren't doing when it's something their party or their president literally passed or signed an EO for. People just don't pay attention. And then you list out the bills or EO's in question and they move the goalposts and cry harder to compensate for their inability to pay attention.
Do they need to do more? Duh. Do they actually get stuff done? Yeah, they actually do. And compared to the other party that only works in opposition to Americans, they technically get infinitely more done than their opponents.
It's a combination really. Of Dems not being good at messaging and people just not fucking paying attention.
Messaging is hampered when the message is delivered by people who oppose you. The Dems don't need help to shoot themselves in the foot, but they get it anyway.
I am, despite not being from USA I am following the midterm races from the imperial core because I know their results will affect my life, the way they did in previous elections. This post, and the vast majority of the propaganda spouted by Dems, is exactly that, though. There's more criticism from the estabilishment Dems towards politicians that do make those points, like Mamdani or El-Sayed, than towards their opponents in the White House. And what does most of them do say about their plans in office? How do they campaign? Exactly the way you see here. And don't get me wrong, I want bad politicians to lose and good ones to win. It's good some do have reasonable strategy, they will do better than the dumbfucks who keep blasting that uncommited voters that don't care about politics as much as they've been taught not to care, that just want to get through their hard day of work and worries - that those voters have to to make time to go and vote for slightly less known Epstein associate. It's not even that I want those dogshit politicians to lose, though I can't claim I see presidency of Newsom going better than Trump's in terms of quality of living for people in USA, but probably noticably better for me in Europe. It's just that they WILL LOSE AGAIN unless the messaging capabilities of the propagandists improve.
It’s too bad Harris didn’t during the ‘24 election, though
She did, you just weren't listening.
She did but all we got was 24/7 coverage of "what do you have to say about israel Palestine" because apparently ukraine doesnt exist and neither do Americans or our healthcare or iran or any other issue in the world that she was infinitely better on.
I think I would have heard about it if she had talked about how Israel is a bunch of genocidal bastards.
Mostly because she would have won the '24 election. It really was down to single-issue "uncommitted" voters in a few states. The exact number of people who voted "uncommitted" in the primary would have turned the election and made Harris president. The DNC has access to all this info just like I do. I dunno why they would wanna lose over supporting Israel, but they did.
if you are presented with a bus driver that, every once in a while, presents you with the choice of either driving off a cliff now or reporting the decision to later, perhaps you should try everything in your power to take control of that bus so you don’t risk death every time
perhaps
Sure, do that. But also vote.
Too many don't, they vote and consider it done with, but the voting is not the solution part of this. With how things are, particularly under FPTP voting systems, it is mostly holding off the worst of it until enough people feel disenfranchised enough to either not bother or vote for some far right conman or another...
Our only way out is by building systems of mutual support for ourselves and one another, but regrettably voting is much easier than that, so it rarely happens.
And yet so many people don't vote. And even more people don't vote in primaries.
Like, I genuinely believe that if everyone just voted on the primaries (incl. for local govt) we'd be fine. That's where the problem really lies IMO. We get shit candidates because nobody shows up to vote for the good candidates in the primaries.
Voting will not save us, huge numbers of problems stem from fundamental imbalances in power, power which the political class require in order to impose their will (or that of whomever they serve further up the chain), even when their will is genuinely benign.
Voting just decides which people (with already powerful people/structures frequently playing an outsized role in exactly who you get to choose between) get into power, then this power both alters their brain and causes their lived experiences to diverge from those of the electorate.
Our solutions need to include a fundamental redistribution of power or we are just maintaining the conditions (a key component being the concentration of power centres, which has been dramatically accelerating for the past few decades regardless of how people have voted) that will lead us right back here. This redistribution is not going to come from people who, however pure their intentions, require power over others to fulfil these intentions.
I won't discourage voting,^*^ but we have to stop pretending that we just need the right rulers and everything will be fine, voting is not enough.
*Although I do understand people; particularly in FPTP safe seats; who choose not to play their part in the theatre of pretending that we are granting them some kind of justified authority over us- if not one single vote was placed, they would just choose how to distribute power amongst themselves after all, they wouldn't leave the seats empty to reflect the outcome of the theatre, because that isn't where their power actually comes from. This becomes clear when you consider ideas such as designated survivors, they collectively assume power over all of us and have a clear delineation of the rulers and the ruled.
If a primary motivation is fear of the 'wrong' people getting into power, that structure was not built to serve you.
That was a whole lot of words without actually providing a single recommended course of action. I continue to hear a lot of general have waving and dissatisfaction from people who say we need a new system, but fail to describe that system in any meaningful detail, or how we will transition to that system without significant bloodshed.
This country has changed a lot over the past 250 years and most of it happened through protest and voting at various levels of government.
You know what the crazy thing is? We have a means to overthrow Congress. We just don't have the state and local leaders to do it. A second Continental Congress is what we need if we want a massive system overhaul. And for that you need state and local governments in sufficient numbers to act without the approval of the Federal Congress.
Voting fucking matters. The likes of MLK are a once in a century deal. Everything else happens through protest and voting at a variety of levels.
The problem is that people hear "go vote" and all they think about is federal level general elections.
We are going to have bloodshed no matter what, when state power feels threatened it will lash out violently, we don't get to decide this.
There is already bloodshed, and there always was, states fundamentally rely upon violence to enforce their interests both domestically and internationally. The point is to finally stop this cycle.
Personally, I feel that our best hope lies in parallel power structures, so the best place to start with that would be in trying to organise members of your community to get together and sort x problem yourselves. It doesn't matter what the problem is, it's fine to start anywhere, it just seems to me that an important step is in people realising how much power they have when they work together.
That is just simply not true, unless you use a very broad definition of protest which goes up to and including the Coal Wars, but given the general sentiment I expect you have calmly marching along and begging for your masters to consider you for once in mind.
Even if it was true, you still haven't attempted to address the power problem that I discussed at length (that being the point of my comment, not the broad solutions that you appear to deem a requirement), I have fulfilled your arbitrary demand, now please answer what I actually said.
Edit: Also, to respond to a comment centred on voting not being a solution due to the fundamental structure this takes with "actually, you just need to vote more", without even mentioning a single point I raised, is incredibly obnoxious.
No thanks. You've just admitted your position that you expect, and welcome, bloodshed as a necessary part of progress.
I have no interest in engaging with an anarchist who won't even consider peaceful progress as an option to pursue.
Nor am I interested in further subsidizing the wealthy by digging even deeper into my paper thin emotional and financial reserves to support the welfare of my community any more than I already am through taxes, charity, and personal outreach to people in need. I am already completely tapped out. And any further subsidy is a tacit admission that the wealthy will never pay their share.
So yeah, hard pass on whatever arguments you want to make.
Have a great day/night!
EDIT: No disrespect, btw. You are welcome to your opinion. I just consider the discussion a waste of time because our fundamental goals are too dramatically different.
https://vote.org/
Not saying don't vote of course, but boy will establishment dems pretend that this is a mandate for them. If you can, vote for progressives, for DSA, for anyone that actually will stand up to fascism.
Too bad it's usually 11 people on the bus 5 vote to drive off the cliff at 60mph and 4 vote to drive off the cliff at 30mph and tell the other 2 that if they vote to not drive off the cliff, the 60mph guys will win.
"usually" is incorrect here. Voter turnout isn't 9 out of 11 people.
It's about 66%, so 8 out of 12. Same difference.
well there's that ... so there is 20 people on the bus and 11 bother to vote, 2 intend to vote for the Not Driving Off a Cliff Party, and the other 9 are arguing about how fast we should drive off the cliff.
The other 9 have been convinced that voting not to drive off a cliff has no chance of working so they must pick one of the other parties
The people in the gray bar in the actual registered voter turnout graph below could band together and vote to, ya know, not drive off a cliff. But they won't, even though they are the majority.
That's the most frustrating part about politics. If everyone who thought "I would vote third party but they have no chance of winning" voted third party, the third party could win. But they don't because it's too risky, it takes votes away from the party they figure has a chance of winning. This is why ranked choice voting is needed.
How do we get enough people in power who support ranked choice voting without first voting for those people in the existing system?
The same way you force capitalists to do other things that benefit the working class: class war.
Put it on the ballots at the local (city, county) level. Measures don't begin with elected officials, they begin by figuring out the prerequisites to put measures on ballots: in some places you need petitions with enough signatures by common people for a measure to be considered, the prereqs vary per locality.
Do you think I'm suggesting we shouldn't vote because I have a criticism of the voting system?
No I am genuinely asking. I don't know how we could do that.
We are in a thread about not voting but I am serious. How? Sorry about asking in this thead.
I don't understand the question. The way to get to ranked choice voting IS by voting in people who support it. Why are you asking for a different way to achieve it? Nobody suggested it can be achieved otherwise. The people who are in power need to make the change happen. Unfortunately, Justin Trudeau promised to change the system and didn't. It is difficult to change because those in power don't have much incentive to change the system that got them in power.
Ahhh... you're in Canada. I'm in the US. RCV is light years away for us.
It's funny how even when you have more than 2 parties the system still favors a 2 party system. 2025 was strange for Canada because a lot of people voted Liberal to stop the Conservatives, not because the Liberal was a great option. Green party voters are particularly frustrating because they are a single issue party and their entire platform is pretty much in the NDP platform.
There are more then 2 political parties in the USA. First-past-the-post voting chains people to two because of the spoiler effect you are demonstrating.
Yup. I was one of the ones who voted liberal when I'd really rather vote NDP but it was more important to stop the conservatives. This is why I wish we had ranked choice voting. A few months ago, I was randomly called for a survey. When they asked me which party I'd vote for if there was an election today, I said NDP. I want polls to show NDP has a chance of winning so maybe next election they will.
I get it, I have actually held a Liberal party membership at times in my life. But the last election I didn't really see much of a difference between the LPC and the CPC, I think we'd be in the same place today if the Cons won.
Ive said it before and I'll say it again. While I'd rather have an NDP government, if my two practical choices are a Harper-era conservative government or a Poilievre-era conservative government, I'd rather the Harper era. One will make some rather shitty business-friendly laws, the other will do that and toss on a bunch of socially regressive ones on top.
Lemmy: Ah, but voting means supporting the means of oppression by the Bourgeoisie thus showing your support of the status quo of lage stage capitalism, and thus by voting to not drive off the cliff you are really enabling the oppression of the Proletariat.
More like 3 people vote to drive off one cliff, 3 people vote to drive off another cliff, 3 people don't vote, and 1 person votes not to drive off the cliff.
The 3 people who didn't vote in your scenario could band together and vote to drive off any cliff or no cliff at all. But they won't...because what? Their vote doesn't matter? Not a perfect cliff? Not a perfect non-cliff? Their favorite streaming series just got released and voting is really hard?
Still a bunch of dummies not using their power.
Everyone voting to not drive off a cliff would be the best choice. Doesn't help that liberals keep shaming people who vote that way.
Yeah, people voting against their own best interests is crazy. I guess to some people driving off a cliff is worth it as long as they get to decide who pees in which bathroom?
They'll vote to drive off their cliff just to spite the other cliff party. That party wants to drive off the east cliff? Obviously the only way to combat such extremism is to own those motherfuckers by driving off the west cliff
No, they're making a "both sides bad" argument when one side wants desperately to find an excuse to exterminate trans people, and the other is milquetoast and ineffective.
It won't crash if Keanu Reeves is on the bus 😎
The vote is for the driver. If the driver says they will drive over the cliff, democracy allows us to choose the driver who will drive into the burning building instead. We get to choose, our vote counts. It's beautiful
What if the other choice is also driving off a cliff, but further away?
Then that buys time to develop other choices, still better than not voting.
Yeah that's what people have been saying since like the 1800s. I forgot who said it or what it was from, but there was a post going around last election with quotes from a bunch of different periods of history with people railing against the two-party system and complaining about how every single election it's always the same choice between voting for things to stay the same/get a little worse, or get much worse. Every election it's the same narrative of how this is the most important election' ever where you have to accept the slightly shitty choice to 'save democracy'. Going back 200 years. And nothing has been done to change the system no matter how many times the 'good' party has been in charge, and the gradual downslide into a fascist shithole has continued regardless of who's in charge. No matter how many times people have voted in the 'lesser evil', y'all are still caught in that bullshit trap. Maybe if a third party had been able to gain some ground in those 200 years things might be different, but people like you claim that voting third party is throwing your vote away just as much as non-voting, so i don't even know what to say to someone who's bought in so completely to the fiction that you have any sort of choice in this system. Keep voting and the corporations will keep throwing up shittier and shittier stooges to build the future they want regardless. It's literally the quote from wargames. The game is rigged and the only winning move is not to play. And also to overthrow your piece of shit government/corporate overlords.
—Hunter S. Thompson, Fear and Loathing: On the Campaign Trail ’72 (1973)
Thank you.
I have voted (early). There were people on the ballot I knew I was not going to vote for, even though they would be considered the lesser of two evils. Luckily, there was a third choice which was a better choice than the main two, so they got my vote.
The people who say just voting for the lesser two evils works, well Trump proved them wrong. At some point there has to be a major change.
I'm not connecting the dots here. How did voting for the biggest evil ever (Trump) prove that voting for the lesser of two evils doesn't work? Wouldn't Kamala winning ("the lesser evil") and things getting worse prove the point? We're not in that timeline so nothing was proven other than the obvious-voting for a wealthy rapist conman who bankrupt multiple casinos is not good for the common person.
The line connecting the dots is Joe Biden, or Obama (Obama didn't campaign on being the lesser of two evils, but that's basically what he was), or Clinton, or... you get the point. Lesser evil Democrats have repeatedly won elections but failed to consolidate their gains into something that doesn't just produce more fascism after four or eight years. Because you can't just win the war; you have to win the peace or you end up losing the next war.
appreciate the clarification
THIS. 1,000%
They claim to love Democracy whilst not practicing it or getting upset poltics is brought up in their daily lives. Gotta feel bad for those who chose ignorance above all else.
Wouldn't loving democracy involve having many political parties to represent the many people who live in the country? Why do any blue states use First-past-the-post voting if democrats love democracy? The republicans arent in control in blue states, there is nothing stopping democrats from loving democracy.
I don't feel bad for them. I hate them.
I will choose freewill - Neil Peart RIP
I bet he spelled it 'free will', as the Canadian education system used to be good in 1961.
The song is called Freewill with no space. I didn’t check the lyrics to see how it was spelled there.
Remember when Rush dedicated 2112 to Ayn Rand?
The logic the non-voters would employ states that the bus-cliff thought experiment is stupid because obviously they’d vote to not die going off the cliff.
Point being, like republicans, they don’t care until ICE has the gun in their face.
There were so many people honking in support at the rally last weekend. All i could think was, "Please just vote. It doesn't mean anything if you don't act."
Nice to see a post on this topic that isn't batshit bonkers.
Thankee Sai!
You've remembered the face of your father.
YES!
Subdivisions - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYYdQB0mkEU different Rush tune. op title quote from Rush - Freewill (Audio) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urBpdyFCZmo
Forget voting in November. VOTE EARLY!!! SC literally opened up in person eatly voting this past Monday.
And if the majority wants to drive off a cliff we should just let it happen because them’s the rules.
Yep. It’s this mentality that crashed the bus folks.
Yes, exactly. Deciding that whether or not the bus crashes should be the outcome of vote is what crashed the bus. The scenario painted in the image is absurd. There is no voting in that scenario. You ignore the fucking dweebs trying to get you to vote for the bus to stay on the land and you fucking stop the bus
Respecting the will of the people?
Being willfully ignorant
I’ve been non-ignorant, unwillfully ignorant, and willfully ignorant and I’ve yet to see any pattern in how elections turn out. It always just gets worse.
Every time they vote to crash the bus.
So I don’t think it has to do with my ignorance, willful or otherwise.
We see what we want to see, don’t we? Go on and take your bow. You’re hurting a lot of fucking people with that ignorance.
Nuh uh. I still vote.
I just know I’m outnumbered.
They’re hurting themselves.
Yeah, but there's another bus that's going to hit yet another bus and the people who don't want to run off the cliff aren't trying to stop it so i cannot in good conscience vote for them. And I'll be very smug about it the entire way down.
Refusing to vote if no candidates represent you is democracy. I will not vote this November.
Trump is the switch:
Just to note, others will die.
That doesn't make the lives saved less important.
The meme indicates 50% voter turnout. It could be even worse than this meme suggests
But the bus tried to get votes from republicaaaaaaaaaaaaiiiigghh!!
*crunch*
There are ten people on the bus. Three want to drive off a cliff. Two want to run over an old lady pushing a stroller down the street and then ram the bus into a daycare. The five people who are refusing to vote want a better option but the bus driver has a gun and will only allow us to vote for one of the two options presented. There is no third option.
Banned from latestagewhatever community
And once more, not voting or casting a third party vote can also be a catalyst for change but it needs to be done in a organized manner and speak in one voice.
A case can be convincingly made that the Perot vote/non-vote paved the way for the racist MAGA movement and the Abandon Harris movement can also be argued had a very outsized effect on the current batch of primaries in the Democratic party.
But if you're a gen-z male that's just been reported to be sitting out the vote quietly because they're immature assholes that are embarrassed they proved they're just as stupid as the average American boomer, well F you.
It's the USA: 33.3% are openly fascist, 33.3% are openly against it, 33.3% doesn't really care, but 95% only really cares about gas price.
Only if you live in a swing
statebus.Coincidence or rush reference?
Came for the Rush quote, upvoted for the message.
Thank you good sir!
How do I sign up to become a Democrat political influencer? I feel like the qualifications must be pretty low.
What if I didn't even know there was a choice? Have I still made one? I'm usually outside playing with the kids or off working for a living to be too plugged in to the world at large.
There is a 3rd dimension this ignores. When both candidates are bad how do you voice that? How do you tell both parties this is not acceptable? If you hold your nose and vote, how do you stop getting more of the same?
It's a hostage situation, and I understand those who have decided they aren't negotiating with these people anymore.
Excellent example of what both sides do. Twist the facts, misrepresnt the truth, flat out lie, then blame everyone else.
Aha! So my choices are facists who will drive me off the cliff slowly or fascists who will drive me off the cliff quickly . !
NICE CHOICES GOIS!
'jUst VoTE tHe FasciSm AwAy1!!¿¡21'
Remember: if you stick to your morals and refuse to cosign on genocide abroad and austerity at home, whatever the other guys you'd didn't vote for do is all your personal fault. No blame whatsoever may be assigned to the party that felt it didn't need your vote badly enough to stop helping genocide or abandoning Neoliberalism.
-Statements from people who can't tell politics from sports.
NOVEMBER 2028 For President! The actual month of November, serving as actual president of the United States of America America!! FREEDDOOOMMMMMM! I do politic
What if youre okay with driving off the cliff but still dont want to vote?
Nice trolley problem bro. Just vote bro.
A system that conjures hypothetical busses careening off of hypothetical ledges to convince citizens to participate in democracy is liberal thing.
Democracy in socialist states is much simpler and effective. The workers control the government and the government serves them. There is no need to whip people into a frenzy.
Lol.
Literally just left a comment about .ml showing up to
like you guys always do.
Thanks for confirming my bias.
You sure showed me.
There's nothing to show you guys. You aren't open to anything other than sniffing your own farts.
I just enjoy running into the increasing number of people that are blocking your entire instance.
Nooooo we need more Trump and GOP so Daddy Putin and Dear Leader Pooh can get more power! Please don't vote! Please I'm getting paid to keep fascists in power so please don't look at anything good that the Dems are doing!
Fucking assassins go away please
No system "conjured up" the trolley problem, it's a very old and well known thought experiment. It's not liberal or conservative, it just is.
Yeah liberals are discrediting their own system when they describe it as being forced to vote for a lesser evil under the threat of fascism every election.
Not to say all liberals describe it that way, but if I was a non-political apathetic non-voter, I wouldn't find that convincing.
Yup, the logic of "obey us or suffer punishment, deviation will be seen as disobedience." Isn't exactly going to endear me to whatever it is you're proposing and, in fact, does everything to make me want to rebel against it.
Whether satire, or trutfully meant- It doesn’t get more psyop than this folks. This psychobabble is what we are up against. This is the ignorance they desperately NEED you to follow. Because they know what happens when they lose.
how could this not be satire lol
I didn't think it could possibly be more satire.
2026 sucks.
Virtually impossible to tell. This is lemmy after all. I’ve seen it all here.
I think the people that want non-voters to vote should be careful what they wish for.
Do you really want the standard US citizen to vote? Really ?!?
Drive through Mississippi. Look at it. LOOK AT IT
(but do vote! I do, because it's funny)
In the last presidential election, a large chunk of the non-voters were doing it in protest because of the Israeli genocide.
They are the idiots this post is about. Not voting against the objectively worse option just means you're fine with all the harm they'll do if they win.
We had one candidate who wants to nuke Gaza and build a resort, plus start a second genocide at home, and we had one candidate who likely only shifted stances to get the funds needed to campaign against someone backed by billionaires.
These people failed at basic math.
Careful with that edge, Eugene.
The bigots/fascists already have significant solidarity. It's the one thing they're actually good at.
So yeah, we need as many people to vote as possible, because even after all this bullshit I still believe most people don't lean toward bigotry/fascism. There's just a lot of lazy people out there.
BOth sIdEs
iT's TrUe ThOuGh
You're a truthophobe
Years ago, back in trumps first term, my buddy told me he didn't vote hilary because she wouldn't give him student loan relief. He had 3 daughters. Trump sat his supreme court justices and a few years later one of his daughters died in a hospital due to birth complications because the doctors were scared to treat her.
get the fuck out of here with this both sides bad utter bullshit.
Lolz sure.
See?!?! Total truthophobe
It says so right on my "independophobe tracker"
also, seculophobic. That's a lot of fear in one person, that's like 3 phobes ha hahaha
The voting records in both the house and the senate disagree with that claim.
The meme I was looking for was "bombing the middle East" but found only this one, which was good enough considering USA has been bombing Iran both with blue and red presidents
Kinda vastly different incidents, time, and voting records though. Along with vastly different targets. And targeting strategies.
Seems a bit disingenuous when there is an active attack happening that would be impacted by this election.
no, the situation is 4 vote to drive off this immediate cliff. 3 vote to drive off the next cliff, and 3 are trying get off the bus or are at peace with their impending doom.
“Vote blue no matter who” is a direct admission that your candidates suck, their stance on issues suck, but you can supposedly buy just a little more time from them then the republicans. except anyone with object permanence knows they don’t acutely fix anything, they ride or die with the republicans, and just use them as the bad guys.
“don’t let perfect be the enemy of good” is bullshit, establishment democrats are no where near good enough, and progressives don’t agree with their stance on: climate change, immigration, lgbtq+ protection, reigning in corporations, resisting genocide, universal healthcare, loosening racially motivated drug enforcement, breaking up the prison industrial complex, breaking up the military industrial complex, defunding the police, establishing ranked choice voting, repealing citizens united, making bribery illegal again, nor establishing term limits.
i don’t care about campaign promises. we already know how they will act, they work for who pays them, and it ain’t us.
by all means vote, but do not let these people use fear to force you to vote for the shortest shit stain
When your opponent is a fascist, YOU VOTE AGAINST the FASCIST.
It blows my mind this this still needs to be said.
who is not the fascist? you are going to have to point them out because i see an open fascist, and a hidden fascist.
If you're asking this question you need to return to school. And I'm not even trying to be mean. If you can't tell, there is something wrong with your brain and education can probably fix it.
You may not like either side, but it has NEVER, NEVER been like this while Democrats were in control. This is a whole new shit ballgame.
And you too can enjoy that cliff.
What exactly are Democrats proposing to fight fascism? What powers are they proposing to strip from the presidency? What politicians do you see proposing dismantling the post 9/11 surveillance state?
Because that's what actually fighting fascism looks like. Democrats don't actually want to fight fascism. They just run on it. They have no actual plans to restore our democracy. That requires moral courage and being willing to vote for bills that will literally kill Americans. Democrats don't have the spine to save democracy.
This is too fucking stupid to bother with any reasonable response.
Ahh but your numbers are wrong.
Translating reality to your scenario, there are 3 for one cliff, 3 for another cliff, and 4 who could vote for no cliff if they were actually paying attention.
Vote blue no matter who is an observation that the other party has gone so fucking far off the rails that voting for the other side, even if they aren't great, is what is necessary to force the pendulum back in the other direction. It's a plea to the idiots that don't vote or vote for 3rd party candidates with NO path to victory to just vote blue so we can put a stop to the very clear and present danger the Republican party represents so we can get back to normal political arguments and work from there.
You're assuming that if the Republicans lose now they'll disappear (or deradicalize) and then you can return to normal politics, but that's not how it actually goes is it? Every time they lose they just come back stronger because the establishment has no answer to the issues giving them (entirely undeserved) credibility. This is why "one more election then we can fix things" has been the rhetoric for decades yet the light at the end of the electoral tunnel never comes; these victories will never stick unless you can make things happen with them, which means the arguments about fixing things must happen at the same time as the arguments about stopping fascism.
You're an idiot
just remember, 95% of you live in areas where you vote wont matter!
Whoever told you that was lying to you
How does your vote not matter if there aren't other people to vote? Like what the hell? Everyone is an individual. The "your vote doesn't matter" argument implies you think that everyone else in your community have no free will or agency and can't be convinced one way or the other.
If everyone in those areas decided not to vote because "their vote doesn't matter" then your vote would be able to swing any election.
Theory of mind is a basic skill that everyone should learn.
Therefore, 95% of people shouldn't vote?
For the presidency, that is; Congress and local elections are more democratic outside the very depths of gerrymander hell.
Enjoy that cliff bud.
You know if we just crash the bus sooner everything would be better. Also I hear the driver picked music no one likes - let's cancel him then all argue over what music is crash appropriate.
A whole lot of history books would like to have a word with you.
I think this is sarcasm, but it's VERY hard to tell.
It's a metaphor for my interpretation of current political discord. Rather it's sarcastic is immaterial the fact that it's getting such a visceral reaction from folks is far more interesting considering it's meant to be nothing more then an observation.
So this is your interpretation, or your wording of someone else's?
The driver is trump, and the music is extrajudicial detention of anyone with an accent or slightly browner skin plus concurrent flattening of Gaza, war in Iran etc etc?
What do you suggest?
Or you can do the smart thing and not accept the trap of believing electorlism will get you anywhere and organize to destroy the system.
They'll get around to it on the same timeframe as the "South will rise again" folks.
I voted early yesterday.
Just wanted to ruin your day with that 😘
Okay? good for you i guess. Not productive but whatever i dont really care
Electoralism got us 12 years of FDR, which permanently changed so many broken things for the better. To the extent that we're all still benefiting directly from it nearly 100 years later.
Uh... the political landscape of early 20th century America does not, in fact, help the case for electoralism. FDR did the things he did to save the system, at least in part from all the socialists running around disrupting it.
If you really believe in accelerationism, then vote for the fascists. That'll get us to the end quicker. If you can't bring yourself to do it, then maybe there's a reason for that.
Sitting around and not voting is either laziness or cowardice. Don't play dumb and pretend it's anything more than that.
Anti electoralism isn't "accelerationism". Nothing i said even lightly implied that. Hate the newest liberal buzzword.
Nothing new about it, but whatever you need to tell yourself to allow yourself to completely ignore it, I guess.
If you're not accelerating towards the destruction of the system, then how are you destroying it?
That's... not what that word means. Seriously look it up on Wikipedia. The short of it is that accelerationism refers to the idea that actively pushing society towards some kind of failure state faster will result in radical change once the dust clears, making it a good choice if you want to get radical change faster. For example this could be a leftist voting for Trump so fascism comes about, fucks things up and opens up the way for a socialist revolution. For obvious reasons this isn't a very popular idea, but it's also quite clearly not what the parent comment said. There are other ways to do anti-electoralism that don't involve pushing the fascists towards power.
Yeah, and I'm asking him what his other way is to do anti-electoralism. If it's not accelerationism, what is it? Don't worry; I already know the answer.
And why do you think you know the answer? History is full of examples of people effecting change outside the ballot box without accelerationism; in fact that's probably how most of your rights came about.
Uh huh. I'm sure that's what that guy is doing.
So......what exactly are you suggesting?
What does being an anti-electoralist and not an accelerationist mean to you?
So far the only detail about what you want that you've provided is that you want the system destroyed, which, to any reasonable person, sounds completely and utterly juvenile and would inevitably lead to mass suffering and death.
LOL. You dweebs can't organise to vote for a third party. How are you going to organize to destroy the system when the system has military hardware.
This is what I don't get about the 3rd party tribe. Literally no 3rd party is even remotely organized enough to even come close to winning a federal election, much less local elections. I don't know if any amount of physical brain damage could make me dumb enough to vote for a 3rd party presidential candidate. It's just so uniquely pointless.
And many of the so-called "leaders" do absolutely nothing of what actually needs to be done to foster legitimate third parties. And we do know what needs to be done, it's not a mystery. They just don't ever fucking do it.
To the point where it sometimes becomes suspicious (looking at you, Jill Stein).
Ah yes. Magician Jill Stein. Who magically appears before elections, never has even the whisper of a path to victory, then disappears after the election. Not suspicious at all. Great 3rd party representation.
For the record, she had 0.5% of the total votes cast in 2024, and she was the most popular 3rd party candidate. If people that voted 3rd party could understand numbers, they'd finally realize why voting 3rd party in a federal election is, how do I put it? Stupid.
The thinking is that more votes for a third party will move the policies of the two larger parties further towards the third party.
Sometimes it's suggested in safe democrat seats.
I think US politics is unusual in that the primaries determine what type of candidate is going to set the tone for the party.
As in, the dems are a broad church, that could have a conservative or a progressive leader.
Pro Tip: Your shit doesn't fly so well outside the dbzer0 and ml communities. Those are your safe spaces and where you will feel most comfortable.
Bad analogy, 3 vote to drive off the cliff, 2 vote to drive it off the cliff inclusively. Either way the only smart choice is to bail the fuck out.
Leave the country instead of trying to improve it? Sucks for anyone about to be hit by a falling bus surrendered to the people voting to send it off a cliff.
‘Stay and die to make a point’ is way less convincing when it’s your life on the line. Anyone who shames someone (especially a targeted minority) for fleeing a fascist state is frankly unhinged and needs to touch grass. Especially in the case of the US, where simply not living in the country doesn’t negate your right to cast a ballot.
I'm not judging people with their life/freedom at risk deciding to get out while they can. I am judging the person I responded to for saying that voting against fascism is support for fascism. There are a lot of people getting hurt and dieing abroad who didn't have the choice to vote in our elections, and I judge anyone saying that by not voting they are not at fault for what their vote might have prevented.
You can stay on the sinking ship if you want. This public has made it very clear that they are listless and will not fight back.
Okay. Leave then.
Better to regain/repurpose control of the bus
Bail the fuck out would only mean leaving the country, ie bus, allowing everyone else to die while pretending to be morally pure.
You do not need to be physically present in the US to vote, and there is absolutely nothing morally “impure” about keeping yourself safe.
Exactly where did you see any indication this person was talking about fleeing for safety?
Ah yes, the primary reason people flee fascist states: not for safety.
There was no reason to be hostile about a random thing you assumed which quote honestly may have nothing to do with what that particular Internet rando was even talking about.
I'm sorry if my mild sarcasm was too hostile for you. Saying that people fleeing the country are leaving everyone to die while pretending to be morally pure isn't a sentiment I feel a particular need to be respectful about.
So like, go live off grid in the middle of nowhere?
downvotes for suggesting the system needs to be put down? ok. ✅
We'll follow your lead.