Far-right AfD win in Germany is ‘grave moment’ for Europe, politicians warn
Mainstream politicians express alarm while lead candidate in Saxony-Anhalt welcomes congratulations from Elon Musk
Mainstream politicians around Europe have expressed alarm after the far-right Alternative für Deutschland (AfD) swept to a historic state election victory in Germany, while nationalist figures cheered the result as a mandate for change.
While falling just short of an absolute majority, the AfD surged into first place in the Saxony-Anhalt state election on Sunday, exit polls showed, putting the far right within reach of power at the state level for the first time since the second world war.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2026/sep/07/afd-thanks-elon-musk-german-state-elections-2026-winOpen linkView original on lemmy.world
322 replies
Did Elon touch the voting system?
Doubtful. The German voting system is quite solid with multiple people checking ballot counting at each step. Citizens can also witness the counting of they want to
The state in question is just one of a couple that always voted quite rightwing. It's nothing new
Also, the system is way too old for Elon to have any interest in touching it
The interesting thing is that he doesnt even have to touch the voting system itself, all of social media is controlled by techno fascists so (basically) all they have to do is boost their own messaging while downplaying opposing messages. Control the voters control the vote.
Not to mention drop some pocket change in the right places.
I'm interested in your statement about this state being one of a couple that always vote right wing. "Nothing new" is how you ended that bit. The way it comes across in the media and commentary is that this is quite a significant thing, so I'm wondering if this is actually worrying or media hype? Thoughts? I've also heard that AfD is polling well across Germany in general, so is this taken into account in the media and your statement?
Because we are internet strangers, I just want you to know I'm actually interested in what you said and your opinion, with no intent of attacking you.
I mean, it is quite significant and quite worrying, just not something extremely surprising
For the party, it is their biggest result by far, as basically every second voter voted for them. Most of the gain comes from voters who voted for the right-wing CDU before, just not extreme-right like the afd
The biggest worry is what they will try to do on a state level and how other parties try to shift their policies to appease more towards the afd voters. Especially CDU has drifted more and more right over the last couple years in the hopes of getting back afd-voters, but they just ended up legitimizing the talking points that the afd has.
"luckily" the results are such a clusterfuck, that they can't create any meaningful coalition, which limits their power a bit. But also creates the potential to whine loudly about how mean everyone else is, and steer more voters to the party on a national level
also, yes. the party is gaining more and more popularity nation-wide. it's... a shitshow.
but tbh, my biggest worry is the absolute clown of a bundeskanzler we have, who is trying his best to compete with the other world leaders in his pure incompetence and idiocy
other than that, rewboss did a great video about the election, and what it means:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aggmXyY3Se0
For reference, in Baden-Württemberg, AfD almost got second place in state election. They got barely less than CDU and came third with about 20%. BW is south west Germany btw. They have been getting votes from everywhere.
They need to investigate this yesterday. I believe Musk meddles big time
No way humanity is actually that bad
Pretty much impossible to do. The voting system in Germany is fairly analog. It's all done on paper.
The only electronic part, that could be hacked, is when the do quick reports of the results that are being used for reporting on the day of the election. But discrepancies would come to light very soon.
So I highly doubt direct interference with the election. But I'm sure he has a big influence on the propaganda that's going on, and that is problematic enough.
I don't know about the people being bad. They are certainly misled, and I would have liked to bring that up as a defense. But it also says something about them, if they let themselves be misled by obvious arseholes.
I mean yes yes we are. This time period we have been is is the anomaly if talking span of time.
...Im just happy that germany will be the cause of all three world wars! 😂🤣😏
if you think there is going to be a third world war let me tell you something; it already started.
Russia's invasion of Ukraine was step 1. trump destroying America, which again is Russia, step 2. all of the bullshit the US (aka Russia because trump is a Russian asset) is step 2. really we are just waiting for the US or china to start an even bigger conflict.
Russia might be good at general shithousery and political warfare but I feel this just feeds their mythos. America did Trump to itself to a large extent, certainly by voting him in after the man attempted a literal coup.
Lol China never does anything except sell weapons to BOTH sides of a conflict. Lol I would be surprised if they did anything to start any conflict seeing as how the world looks today....
Thoughj the world will change DRASTICALLY in the next 50-200 years due to climate change, which will deeply effect parts pf southern China so.... Things may changes eventually ...
The mind of a lib lmfao.
Hat trick baby!
On the brighter side now the world can hate the US AND Germany.
And Britain
And France
And Italy
And almost everywhere
Fascism is on the fucking rise everywhere
Because people are not happy with what we have and want to try something different. Is it smart or right no. But the current system isn't working for the people so the people want something different. I mean it is understandable they see nothing improving for them and getting worse and we have at least more of the world more left. So people well swing the other way.
damn nazis rearing their ugly heads is becoming a global epidemic. we get rid of them this time, i suggest leaving NO survivors
I suggest a reverse holocaust.
Germany took a look at the absolute SHITHOLE the US has become and truly said yeah I'll have what they're having. Are you guys fucking stupid???
I'd be checking to make sure everything was legal and that gross parasite Muskrat didn't have his lackeys fuck with your system, that's for sure
Sadly I spoke with people and they still think they are offered a solution with afd
Humanity, it seems, is doomed to repeat this cycle until we've destroyed the earth and ourselves.
The good news is last time this happened they warned this time would result in next time being fought with sticks and stones
What? You think nazi-ass USA is going to nuke them? This time they'll be supporting them...
“I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones.”- Albert Einstein
I was referencing this quote, not the US nuking anyone.
Ahhh that makes a lot more sense!
but who says that the ukranians and the germans, polish, italians, romanians wont launch ANOTHHER invasion of Russia and the other Slavic cointries? That can definitely eventually happen. Russia has many nukes right?
All those former stated countries are taking a turn towards the right.... And by right I mean Russophobic right, not necessarily 'anti-Dark-Skinmed-Peoples' right©®™
I’m not talking about nuking any countries, i’m talking about the AI race destroying the world, because in my opinion that’s likely the great filter that will kill off humanity
...you see AI as a bigger threat to humanity than ..... nuclear weapons?!....
In a different dynamic yeah. Please read the Einstein quote again, think of the context in which he said it.
We are sooooo going extinct. I honestly give humans 2 generations left.
This just shows how much other parties neglected that part of electorate.
Mass immigration to debase wages as rents skyrocket is actually very progressive, if you don't think so you're probably just a racist. Corporations were heavily lobbying for it so it must be good.
Keep in mind that this party is under observation for their Nazi tendencies, and fulfils a good number of criteria for getting prohibited as a party, something that is really really hard in Germany.
American Nazis like Musk and Trump sent their congratulations to the AfD. Which tells a lot about them.
The only upside is that they won in Saxony-Anhalt. Which is the most neglectable and backwater state in Germany, with only a very small fraction of Germany (about 2% of the population). Their win is mainly based on promises they simply cannot fulfill, so if they manage to form a government, they will disappoint their big time from day one. They might terminally fuck up Saxony-Anhalt, but that'll be no big change - that state already is a lost case.
Americans when a far right party gets a high non-majority result in a single bundesamt in former East Germany, primarily taking votes from the other right wing party:
😏😏😏😏😏😏😏 Guess we're in the same boat now, huh? 😏😏😏😏😏😏😏
your comment comes across like you're implying that it's actually fine and everyone is overreacting and should calm down. in other words, exactly what every center-right and right-wing idiot in the US did before trump.
So, there was this group of right wing idiots called “The Tea Party.” Might want to look into how that started and what it lead to.
It is genuinely scary, but most don't understand how the system works. This is like the Republicans winning Texas except part of the Republican party refuses to work with the other part because they are nazis. So the sane half work with the democrats to keep the Nazis from having influence.
The Nazis are taking over everywhere because THEY ARE ALL FUNDED BY THE SAME PEOPLE.
WE KNOW WHO THEY ARE AND WE COULD REMOVE THE ROOT CAUSE OF ALL OF THIS WHENEVER WE WANT
exactly.
People act as if the solutions are long and complex....
my guy....
every billionaire in your city could be blasted and the resources theyve stolen from the people could be distributed and ALL these problems would turn into thin air in like 2 or 3 months lol.
I'll be sitting back and watching intently for them to "show us how it's done".
Lot of losers here going, "huh, euro now what" one German state in one country won and are already being scrutinized and restrained meanwhile America is still burning, your lashing out proves you your disengenuous about tackling this problem and you only care about the moral high ground of the situation, you skin deep liberals are all like this and it's why nothing has been done in America, in Germany they been slowing these guys down even before they got into office, big diffrence.
Next, flavio cagacalça won on Brazil
So strange every country that were forced to take a fuckload of immigrant have political party that are anti immigrant on the rise. That was totally unpredictable
Now watch as "liberals" continue to do nothing to stop the fascist propaganda machines causing the spread of the mental illness, because they are bankrolled by the fascists in the corporate economic elite.
They'll also continue sowing the seeds of fascism by colluding with the elite to extract wealth from the population. Buckle up. All of this has happened before, and all of it will happen again.
The Weimar Republic did the same god damn thing.
Can you explain what you mean by liberals in this case?
It's an overloaded term that means very different things when used by different people in different contexts
Lot of you loser have been chomping at the bit to point the finger back at other, Germany had one state flip not the nation as a whole, and not the eu as a whole either, no in any way the same as americas failure at all.
Well haha from the perspective of someone you'd call "tankie" this is hilarious. Like the call is coming from inside the house. The liberals or "leftists" very much engage in this reality denying or mental illness you complain about.
Because how is doing a coup in Ukraine to empower neonazis massacre their own protestors, oust the president and then provoke a proxy war with violence not fascism in foreign policy? Doing THAT to another country? How are the parties in Europe supporting this and lying about this not fascist as well? How are they not fascist for supporting a genocide in Gaza? But all you hear now is Russia Russia Russia Russia.
The people voting for the AfD can very much see through this specific type of insanity. They are immune to this type of "idealism" opposed to realist foreign policy. They understand Nato is not "nice" or idealistic and that Russia doesn't want them on their doorstep. They look at the "leftists" and wonder how they got more radical than themselves, supporting nazis and whatnot lol. Obviously the AfD politicians are just neoliberal opportunist fascist scumbags and the voters are sadly not immune to that type of insanity. But it's the deliberate destruction and degeneration of the western "liberal" democracies that is driving all this:
Costs for energy, fertilizer have risen, truth and liberty have all gone down the shitter in Europe because of this war. Understanding the enemy is treason and diplomacy is criminalized. What did you think came next? Seriously you're going to complain about the fascists after the liberal/leftist imperialists lit Europe on fire and let it burn?
Anyway the rise of fascism, LePenn and Ukip is now inevitable and Europe will break apart. Because the conditions are now as they are. Of course climate change made it inevitable already but this will seriously accelerate the downfall.
Don't blame the poorly educated. Blessed are the poor in spirit.
If you want to stop or delay Europe's downfall and slide into fascism, all you have to do is push for an immediate peace deal with Ukraine, normalize relations with Russia to get energy flowing again, sanction the US and Israel so they leave Iran alone. Prosperity returns, economic outlook improves and everybody is happy again. Easy peasy lol.
Do you want to know what is really going on? Good luck! Look at all this insanity and the attempts by smart people to make sense of it:
Man arrested over Nord Stream bombing was consultant on film about it starring Sean Penn | Nord Stream 1 pipeline | The Guardian (Ok lol this one is just for fun)
Secret Plan to Destroy BRICS and Crash China w/ Ryan Perkins (Hypothesis to explain Iran and Venezuela and Trump's behavior not as incompetence but deliberate crashing and something of a cash grab) (Written article on this by Ryan Perkins)
US War on Multipolarism: Turning the Gameboard Over (Hypothesis 2, Trump hacks at the roots of the global economy to reset to uni polarism, and US empire catches the game pieces as it all crashes)
The Political Economy of Pax Silica (Analysis of the current "mask off" USA trying to reassert itself as the core of an empire alternative to China)
“The Nerd Reich”: Author Gil Durán on Big Tech Fascism, Peter Thiel, JD Vance & the War on Democracy | Democracy Now! (EDIT: And these technofascists own the social media that is allowed unmoderated hate speech to poison people and drives fascism together with the economic downturn)
Channel of Prof. Glenn Diesen who interviews various serious people about Ukraine, Iran and China. That's a lot of highly respected "cranks" all scratching their heads at Europe's Russia psychosis. Neutrality Studies is good too in interviewing sane people.
Anatomy of a Coup: How CIA Front Laid Foundations for Ukraine War still is the best source to explain how the Ukraine proxy war was engineered under Obama (and Bush before and Biden after him, but really the US "deep state"). Also see Global Delinquents. Or have you ever heard of the Tragedy of Darth Georgescu the Wise?
This isn't conspiracy theory. Nothing hypothetical about it because they are openly admitting to it. Is it mental illness? Very much so. Continuing to blame Russia and "Putler" for everything and then complaining about rising fascism just doesn't cut it as a strategy any more. Start reading and accept reality as it is, and you'll understand why the fascists are winning.
As usual, the conservatives are given a pass and then liberals assigned all the blame.
This place is absolute fucking joke.
No they aren't. The liberals and conservatives are both being blamed because they are both part of the problem. 2 sides of the same coin.
Liberals are being assigned blame because they are worthy of blame.
Conservatives know they are to blame, telling them that does nothing. Liberals think they are helping the working class and at the very least are discomforted when confronted with the reality of their actions (sometimes).
We don't have liberals or a two party system or whatever you have in the US.
This dumb Propaganda shit on lemmy that the left is to blame for the fascism that people voted for really bores me by now.
None of this is the lefts fault.
I'm not American and you do have liberals, and liberals aren't the left.
Our so-called liberals are the FDP.
But this term means very different things here, than it does in US politics. But you're right: they are definitely not the left.
Wrong, all political parties in Germany (except for parts of Linke and BSW) are economically liberal.
In the US, the neoliberals have held power over the Democrat party since Ronald Reagan was president in the 1980s. Liberal is shorthand for neoliberal and are considered left here. They are very much to blame for the current state of the US. They offshored jobs, busted unions, weakened education, and cut welfare programs to benefit the elites just like the conservatives have.
Surely liberal isn’t short for neoliberal.
It is in american parlance. When you hear right-wingers rally against "liberals" they are talking about neoliberals. If they meant classical liberals they'd be talking about themselves.
no it is not. in common american parlance, "liberal" refers to the democratic party and is treated like a left-wing position. only leftists use "liberal" (well, "libs") to mean "neoliberal." the latter is obviously way more correct, but that doesn't mean the average person uses it that way, the average person is politically illiterate.
Nah. You just don't understand how uneducated, indoctrinated, and mentally-ill American conservatives are.
90+% of them absolutely have no fucking idea what the difference between a classical liberal or neoliberal is. Conservatives are closer to neoliberals than classical liberals. They don't care though, because they've been indoctrinated with the mental illness of fascism.
Unless you live in North Korea you've got liberals. It's good to learn some basic definitions for words before running your mouth. If you live in Germany, the CDU, SDP, FDP and Greens are all liberal parties.
But you also don't have any left at all, which doesn't help.
Even fucking bsw has a point when calling die linke just another socdem party. And neither of these party is even doing well in the urns.
From a French PoV, German politics are really cooked. Overton window is more right wing than us, and the votes are also more concentrated to the right.
BSW should figure out who they even are before they sling any shit. They are putins Nazicommunist party and you need to mentally unwell to vote for them.
I don't have a problem with the socialists going socdem because there is presumably a large gap there.
The Socdems by name sold out more than 25 years ago.
Nobody is giving conservatives a pass. But we aren't going to solve the problem if we don't spend time understanding why people are voting the way they're voting in an international trend, and it isn't that everyone just became a lot more racist overnight; it's because in many countries, the reality has become choosing between a more social liberal or social conservative neoliberal party, and one would need to be blind at this point to not see it's the second part of that descriptor people are done with.
I'm saying this as someone who is absolutely a lesser of the evils voter and advocated for such; but I also understand what's actually driving support for people like Trump, AfD, and the like, and it isn't a surge in intolerance; it's material conditions, like it almost always is.
The criticism gets directed at the center left more than the center right because they are the ones more politically viable to change, or at least that's been the view. Conservatives concentrating wealth and power in the hands of a few is itself a conservative position in the traditional sense. Any party claiming to be left should be antithetical towards that.
Don't mistake that for giving conservatives a pass. They're worse, I'll absolutely vote center left neoliberal if they are the only alternative; but convincing them is to fundamentally change their views more than a center left party.
There may be a gap here in the definition of "liberal". Liberalism is a political philosophy that also encompasses most traditional conservatives. It is different from the colloquial usage. It's loosely defined as the belief in individual freedoms, including the right to private property. It is inherently capitalist and therefore socialists, communists and anarchists generally do not consider them to be of the left.
...uhhh a socialist and a communist are the exact same thing....
Youre right about everything elsee though.
Often conflated but Marx and Engels themselves draw a distinction between socialism and communism. They consider socialism a stepping stone to communism.
....umm ya. Socialism was created by Marx because he knew that humans, as stupid , genocidal , and self destructive as we are, would have difficulty embracing as good of an idea as comkunism so he proposed that socialism is a 'transitory thing' or transitory phase that leads to a communistic sociaety because as we have seen a trillion times whenone society embraces socialism anither capitalistic society will genocide the people there or even force the people embracing socialism to change their minf
We saw this in Korea at the hands of the canadians and americans, We saw this in Indonesia at the hands of the amedicans again. We saw this in Vietnam at thr hands of the french , then the japanese , then the americans. We saw this with the Congolese a tthe hands of the belgians and americans . And even in CHile at the hands of the americans
We have seen this exact scenario play out snd we will continue time and time again to see this scenario play out....
Socialist ideas predate Marx. Look up Robert Owen for example. Engels talks about earlier socialist philosophies in "Socialism: Utopian and Scientific". It's not a very long book and it's an interesting read. I think it's an extract from a longer work.
If ANY person calls themselves a socialist or 'communist' and hasnt read this yet ? They belong in a psych ward in my opinion. The only type of socialism that can possibly exist is scientific socialism.
. The collective scientific material conditions and scientific psychological conditions of the average persons should be what spurs the majority of the people into a deathly amalgamation into lethal force and lethal action to create a socialistic society or a socialistic world that eternally executes the bourgeoisies . And also I beleive that itlf the people , through their collective experience, want to create a deathly amalgamation to create a lethal force that creates a world thst leads to self-destructive nuclear holocaust ? So be it. I wouldnt support the second scenario but I would also be powerless to stop it. Who are we to to stpp the majority of people once theyve set their mind to something? You as one random person or as one random intellectual or as one random billionaire cannot slam down your ideas onto the people and make them follow cause youre just one weak insignifisct person and they outnumber you . It is up to the people to rise up collectively in their million and even billions to come together to get something that they want from the groups that they outnumber.
"Always remember , the sheep outnumber the worlves. Always have and always will." (Idont remember ewho said this quote but they coooooked)
Thats basically the gist I got from that article
So thats why I believe (and Im fucking right) thst most people today are VERY okay with the world we live in today. Because if most people were not okay with the world thst we have today, why have most of the people in most countries not amalgamated into a lethal , destructive, heavily-disruptive force that stops the economy and changes the world so that our demands change from our policymakers ans billionaires ? We The People, We The Workers outnumber billionaires po liticians, army officials, police officers and sepcial ops operatives in the thousands and thousands. We could EAAAASILY win ANY war against them..... but people arent doing that.....so that must mean thst most people are OK with the current genocidal and crapitalistic world we live in today lol. Nobody has ever been able to refute me when I bring this point up. And nobody shall ever be able to refute this.
People ALWAYS talk talk talk about 'oH PolItiCiaNs SucK' 'oh bIllIoNAIreS aND OlIgArChS SucK' 'WeNeEd To ChAnGe OuR cuRrEnT aDopTiOnS aNd foSteR cArE sYsTeMs sO cHilDreN aRe SafEr' 'We gOtTa cHanGe ThInGs CaUse OuR jUstIcrE SysTeMs sUcKs!1!1!1' . If you go to the comments sections of ANY trrue crime video on youtube youll A.L.W.A.Y.S. see comments like these ..... but then these same people never DO anything to ensure that this 'change' is brought about... hmmm ....funny thing that lol
"Now, there's one thing you might have noticed I don't complain about: politicians. Everybody complains about politicians. Everybody says they suck. Well, where do people think these politicians come from? They don't fall out of the sky. They don't pass through a membrane from another reality. They come from American parents and American families, American homes, American schools, American churches, American businesses and American universities, and they are elected by American citizens. This is the best we can do folks. This is what we have to offer. It's what our system produces: Garbage in, garbage out. If you have selfish, ignorant citizens, you're going to get selfish, ignorant leaders. Term limits ain't going to do any good; you're just going to end up with a brand new bunch of selfish, ignorant Americans. So, maybe, maybe, maybe, it's not the politicians who suck. Maybe something else sucks around here... like, the public. Yeah, the public sucks. There's a nice campaign slogan for somebody: 'The Public Sucks. Fck Hope. Because if it is really just the fault of the politicians then where are all the other bright people of conscience? Where are all the bright, honest, intelligent Americans ready to step in and save the nation and lead the way? We don’t have people like that in this country. Everybody’s at the mall, scratchin’ his ass, pickin’ his nose, takin’ his credit card out of his fanny pack and buyin’ a pair of sneakers with lights in them. So, I have solved this little political dilemma for myself in a very simple way. On Election Day, I stay home. I don’t vote. Fck ’em! Fck ’em! I don’t vote. Two reasons. Two reasons I don’t vote. First of all, it’s meaningless. This country was bought and sold and paid for a long time ago. This shit they shuffle around every four years? Pfft! Pfft! It doesn’t mean a fcking thing. And secondly, I don’t vote because I believe if you vote you have no right to complain. People like to twist that around, I know. They say, ‘Well, if you don’t vote you have no right to complain.’ But where’s the logic in that? If you vote and you elect dishonest, incompetent people and they get into office and screw everything up, well, you are responsible for what they have done. You caused the problem. You voted them in. You have no right to complain. I, on the other hand…who did not vote…who did not vote…who, in fact, did not even leave the house on Election Day, am in no way responsible for what these people have done and have every right to complain as loud as I want about the mess you created that I had nothing to do with. So, I know that a little later on this year you’re gunna have another one of those really swell presidential elections that you like so much [Bill Clinton v. Bob Dole]. You enjoy yourselves; it’ll be a lot of fun. I’m sure as soon as the election is over your country will improve immediately. As for me, I’ll be home on that day, doing essentially the same thing as you. The only difference is, when I get finished jerking it, I’m gunna have a little something to show for it, folks.” -- George Carlin
If youve been voting in assholes agains and again and again amd again for centuries and centuries then ....maybe voting is useless and you need to resort to more 'direct' forms of interventions when you want to see things change in your community ....
If you split yourself off the "left in the widest sense" you have 5 percent of the votes and you are essentially meaningless. Stuck to your values but meaningless.
The left does not need more splitting while the right manages to rally behind one or two people.
As I say, liberals believe in capitalism by definition. The impact of your vote once every few years in an election under this system pales in comparison to the influence that the owner class have due to their wealth and power. This is fundamental. This is why you get all the anti-liberal sentiment from anti-capitalists.
Furthermore you talk about convincing some percentage of voters in order to change the system. The early turnout figure for this election is 54% and that's considered high... What of the non voters?
Unless your election system is FPTP, I don't see a problem with doing just 5%.
When the home team who is on defense just allows goal after goal with no defense, and scoring no goals of their own... that's a bad team and deserves criticism if they're the bulwark defenders who are supposed to oppose fascism. Fascists are winning and that is the fault of liberals for a lack of opposition.
Exactly.
If I hire a body guard and theyve allowed me to get shot 69 times over the last 20 years and they NEVER change their tactics or our tactics to keep me and them safe.... what do you think Im eventually gonna think about them? ...
because liberals are the prime reason of fascists rise in power. They pretend to be good while oiling the fascist machine
"There has never been and will ever be anything int he Western Hemisphere more dangerous than a White liberal" - Malcolm X
He would have been more correct if he talked of EVERY liberal.
You can stop worrying about nuclear weapons as the most destructive thing on the planet today , because we ALL know itll be the moderates snd liberals who will be pressing the very buttons to launch all the nuikes lol.
Sometimes I think it must be a psyops by the billionaires to divide and demoralize the left. Then I remember some people are just so dumb.
Libs aren't left, lmao.
QED
Literally the start of left politics is anti-capitalist. Literally, liberals aren't leftists.
I recognize that "the left" in America is the democratic party. That's a you problem.
And thats kinda where the term 'liberal' comes from
It means that they want to 'LIBERALly restructure and readjust the capitalistic economy and societies so thst these ecoonomies and society favour them and their cronies'
There has NEVER been a liberal ideology that has explicitly stated we shall destroy capitalism eternally. They always say 'structurally readjust capitalism'
Meanwhile the socialists and anarchists are the ONLY people who have ever said they want to eternally destroy capitalistic economids and societies to thst they favour the workers collectively or that they favour individual , loose communities .
Anyone who calls themselves a 'leftist' but isnt an anarchist or socialist can EASILY be outed as a rightist with a. few questions. I have never encountered a single person that has proven that Im wrong about this. And I never will lol.
Well yeah because it's definitional, lol.
I'm not in America, never lived there, will never live there.
Seriously, it's like you guys insist on being unpopular and divisive, it almost (almost) looks like sabotage at this point.
I'm just trying to explain definitions to you lol. Liberals do not want what leftists want.
you seriously think liberals are part of left? lol.
QED
Liberals are not leftist
QED
It's their go to.
Like yeah, milquetoast policies ultimately lead us here but they have more fury for the people doing moderately OK but ultimately unsatisfactory things than the people actually going hog wild, robbing everyone blind, instituting fascism, etc.
The person breaking the lock and leaving deserves about as much blame as the burglar.
Liberals are fascist collaborators and work on behalf of the elites. The sooner liberals are gone the faster we can fix these issues. Conservatives are just plain evil.
Good luck getting more than 5 percent of the votes. 👍 We'll talk then
You must not be from the US then. It's already happening here. Many progressive candidates are either beating the liberals or nearly beating them. I expect that to keep happening too. I was a lifelong liberal voter and even voted for Kamala in '24, but I won't make that mistake again. Liberals do not have the best interests of the working class in mind and they've made that crystal clear. Hell, they don't even have the best interests of human life in mind.
"Now, there’s one thing you might have noticed I don’t complain about: politicians. Everybody complains about politicians. Everybody says they suck. Well, where do people think these politicians come from? They don’t fall out of the sky. They don’t pass through a membrane from another reality. They come from American parents and American families, American homes, American schools, American churches, American businesses and American universities, and they are elected by American citizens. This is the best we can do folks. This is what we have to offer. It’s what our system produces: Garbage in, garbage out. If you have selfish, ignorant citizens, you’re going to get selfish, ignorant leaders. Term limits ain’t going to do any good; you’re just going to end up with a brand new bunch of selfish, ignorant Americans. So, maybe, maybe, maybe, it’s not the politicians who suck. Maybe something else sucks around here… like, the public. Yeah, the public sucks. There’s a nice campaign slogan for somebody: 'The Public Sucks. Fck Hope. Because if it is really just the fault of the politicians then where are all the other bright people of conscience? Where are all the bright, honest, intelligent Americans ready to step in and save the nation and lead the way? We don’t have people like that in this country. Everybody’s at the mall, scratchin’ his ass, pickin’ his nose, takin’ his credit card out of his fanny pack and buyin’ a pair of sneakers with lights in them. So, I have solved this little political dilemma for myself in a very simple way. On Election Day, I stay home. I don’t vote. Fck ’em! Fck ’em! I don’t vote. Two reasons. Two reasons I don’t vote. First of all, it’s meaningless. This country was bought and sold and paid for a long time ago. This shit they shuffle around every four years? Pfft! Pfft! It doesn’t mean a fcking thing. And secondly, I don’t vote because I believe if you vote you have no right to complain. People like to twist that around, I know. They say, ‘Well, if you don’t vote you have no right to complain.’ But where’s the logic in that? If you vote and you elect dishonest, incompetent people and they get into office and screw everything up, well, you are responsible for what they have done. You caused the problem. You voted them in. You have no right to complain. I, on the other hand…who did not vote…who did not vote…who, in fact, did not even leave the house on Election Day, am in no way responsible for what these people have done and have every right to complain as loud as I want about the mess you created that I had nothing to do with. So, I know that a little later on this year you’re gunna have another one of those really swell presidential elections that you like so much [Bill Clinton v. Bob Dole]. You enjoy yourselves; it’ll be a lot of fun. I’m sure as soon as the election is over your country will improve immediately. As for me, I’ll be home on that day, doing essentially the same thing as you. The only difference is, when I get finished jerking it, I’m gunna have a little something to show for it, folks.” – George Carlin
If youve been voting in assholes agains and again and again amd again for decades and decades and decades... then …maybe voting is useless and you need to resort to more ‘direct’ forms of interventions when you want to see things change in your community …
But either the Democrats need to be taken over completely, MAGA style or lose so much that another party takes their spot in the two party system. Which is difficult.
These monolithic blocks exist because they are not constantly under attack in that system.
As liberals and conservatives make life worse for the working class they'll start to realize both of those options are bad. Unfortunately many will have to suffer before they come to that conclusion.
That's the point, that a lot would have to happen
Who are the liberals if not the conservatives?
Ppl vote them because other (big) parties dont address their problems. Also % thresholds for democratic participation keeps smaller parties with reasonable programmes away from the table. Wasnt too long ago EU intruduced this. So this is the consequence of continous political failure. I'd also argue voters are aware they get robbed by politicians accepting bribes direct or indirect. And they vote any party (falsely here, see tesla feat) promising to crack down on the old political class. Trump did the same (but didnt follow through obv).
People are desperate.
Mainstream politicians don't get it, despite seeing it play out in multiple countries with varied culture: people are so done with neoliberlism they will vote for literal fascists before they vote for another neoliberal.
They get it, and they are counting on it.
Maybe for some... I honestly think most of them are just that high on their own supply and so used to being the mainstream they can't imagine a world where they aren't anymore. Who knows, though, maybe you're right..?
No the regions in the east have gotten too much funding for infrastructure and such. The money that was worth exactly zero got exchanged 1:1 to DM.
This cost billions. Streets in the east look fantastic. Where I grew up in the west everything is broken.
This is the thanks the west gets from these fuckin people.
Fuck them, fuck their "problems"
I'm not German but I've always heard the exact opposite...
"History repeats itself first as farce, then as tragedy"
Let's hope we're just on the "farce" part lol
Other way around: the tragedy is first.
May I ask why you hope for even worse?
This comment is so ignorant about the reality it hurts.
There are many actual legal actions taken against AfD and AfD members already, including a period of time where AfD was not allowed to receive briefings regarding national security, something that is a right for all members of the Bundestag.
Personally I'm sad they didn't get a majority, because that's probably the best cure, people need to see how damaging their policies are, and how stupid they really are. AfD is a protest party, people vote for because they are unhappy with the current situation. Caused by Covid, Ukraine War, Russian energy sanctions against EU before the Ukraine war that was very damaging to German industries, and now Eu sanctions against Russia that have similar effect. Followed by the damage on energy supplies like wood pellets from the Ukraine war, and on top of all that Trumps ridiculous tariffs and the effects of the Iran war.
This is at the same time we have increased competition from China.
Europe has been in a perfect storm for nearly a decade now caused by outside forces. Except of course Brexit can be argued to not be outside when that happened. And although Brexit was far worse for UK, it was also damaging to EU.
AfD is by far the strongest in the old Communist Eastern Germany, because despite massive support from the old Western Germany they feel cheated, and some accuse the politicians of privatizing only to the advantage of West Germany. They simply refuse to realize how far behind they were economically at the time.
On top of all the above Putin has made a massive effort of misinformation in Germany, to promote the extreme right, and dissatisfaction. Despite we are actually doing pretty well in EU considering the circumstances this past decade.
You just earned yourself a "NeolibSimp" label.
Then you are absolutely reading my comment wrong.
By your own standard you should have a degrading label too.
Lmao
But nothing to actually solve ordinary people's problems and show that there's a way other than fascism. In the absence of that, defensive democracy is nothing more than theater.
Yeah, it's all those evil foreigners. It can't be the awful mismanagement of the political establishment. Housing crisis? No way.
PS: The impact of Ukraine on energy prices is a direct consequence of EU countries slow-walking decarbonization.
Legal actions are the anti-solution. Making people feel that they don't need the afd because other parties are meeting their needs is the real solution.
Be careful what you wish for. That’s the attitude America had that earned us another run of the Orange pedo.
It was also the attitude of Weimar Germany towards the Nazi party.
No it's not, Trump was a proven malignant narcissist. AfD is not a person, but a political party, as soon as such people have to agree on things to make real policies, they tend to crumble.
The US situation is very very different, and is based in a society that has become more sociopathic over many decades. The role has as President of USA has no equal in Germany, nobody is granted that much power in Germany. Trump with his extreme narcissism would be very unlikely to be able to function in German politics.
It's the "christians" or the Zentrum Party back then. We don't have "liberals".
The center right betrayed the German people back then and right now. Learn the history before writing BS.
No, not as much as the role of the national liberal DNVP (which Hindenburg was effectively a part of, too) and partially the Social Democrats collaborating with the Nazis to kill the communist party. It was the liberals.
Strangely quiet from all those who are pissing on the US "YOU GUYS DO SOMETHING", yeah?
Well, here's your chance, for the ones of those who are like the above but who are in Germany: DO SOMETHING NOW WHILE YOU STILL CAN. OR at least shut the fuck up about the US and our struggles to overcome fascism.
(I'm venting about those specific assholes, not Germans struggling to fight against this rightwing surge, I hope that's clear)
American reading a global News story: "how can I make this about me, while also justifying my inaction?"
You have to understand the brief history of Germany since the WWII to grasp the full picture. In a nutshell, once East and West Germany were formed, that locked people in to essentially different systems. Once the wall fell, Germany was reunited. However, the East vs West dynamic in terms of poverty and voting, the West is largely paid more and has is liberal leaning, while the east side of Germany is still quite impoverish, so they vote for the AfD because they seem to be telling the people what they want to hear.
It's essentially very similar to how the US is blue vs red. Cites are blue, while the rural parts are red. Germany is blue on the west, and red on the east due to Germany splitting and reunifying.
Also similar to how the Union and the Confederacy split and reformed and those problems never got fixed because we didn't hold anyone accountable and didn't invest in improving the lives of average citizens.
I'm so tired
Same, my friend, same.
The bigger they get, the harder they will be to remove until it's too late. All the deadlock over the last few years about whether they should or shouldn't ban them has allowed them to balloon to this size. The best time for action was yesterday, the second best is today. Don't let the Nazis take over again.
You can ban the group, but you can't ban the ideas or support that led to it.
The other parties need to take an honest look at themselves and ask why people would support a party like that over themselves.
This x1000. Instead of taking a step back and trying to figure out how they lost to an orange cheeto, the dems in the U.S. decided to blame everyone except themselves.
Maybe the other parties in Germany should think about how they could lose to a nazi party, and make adjustments.
So it goes…
Aye, I've fought those assholes on Lemmy. They are a poison to us all.
We're in this together, all of us. Every citizen in this world. The fascists must be defeated.
"Fought", lol
This is a global class war.
Unfortunately the owner class is faster in organizing globally than the workers... but we'll ctach up eventually.
Well, i'm out at every opportunity to join any protest against the far-right in my region, even if i have to drive half an hour to get to it or take a day off from work. Last time i marched with a wild mix of people through half the town, blocking most of a major entry road to the inner city, in protest against the AfD having their meet and greet. I'm also member of a union.
And i'm still gonna criticise 'Muricans for not doing enough. At this point protesting alone might not be enough. I'm not saying you should turn to violence, but you absolutely should unionise more and coordinate massive shutdowns all over the country. People managed to do that in the past, and at that time they didn't even have the convenience of instant communication across the globe. Those worker's rights didn't come for free.
No offense, but this sentence alone shows just how disconnected you are from the struggles of Americans
As i said, those rights didn't come for free. There was a time when they didn't exist here or anywhere in Europe. Sometimes they were gained by strikes and peaceful protests, sometimes it took a more drastic turn.
No, you still don’t get it. Many, possibly most Americans cannot choose to take a day off of work for something like going to a protest. No extra money and/or they’ll get disciplined at work and possibly fired.
What makes you think that was any different in 19th / early 20th century Europe?
As much as I want to be on your side, I gotta mostly agree with the other guy here: Europeans have the advantage of a very high population density overall, especially compared to America. I don't know where you're from but taking the Fremch as an example because they live and breathe protesting and revolutions, they could (and have) gather a MASSIVE protest of millions of people from all over the country in the span of just a few hours when they set their minds to it. Meanwhile, in the US, outside the small handful of cities everyone is familiar with (New York, Los Angeles, etc) the vast majority of us are spread out over
thousands of miles(1.61 x thousands) of kilometers in pockets too small to really have any effect at all.After some admitedly-quick research, the EU has about 100 million more people and a little less than half the land that the US has. These two compounding factors alone make it MUCH easier to facilitate any kind of social change on your side of the pond, but that's not even including factors like our complete lack of any REAL public infrastructure, harsher work-life balance by every metric, and (though I could be wrong here) a generally pro-union culture whereas our unions have been demonized to Hell and back (pun intended) for at least the previous 150 years
Yes, i understand the US is big. But let's take a look where most of the American people actually are, shall we?
Idk about you, but i see no problem here. You have a massive population center in the east, and one in the west. With some spread across the eastern half. You have internet, you have instant communication. You don't need the entire country. You only need a critical mass of people shutting down the most important population centres. And yes, there is precedence for that in the history of other countries. Look at Russia. The most densely populated areas happen to be on the European continent. That's the area that was always the most critical when it came to uprisings. Sure, it didn't work out for them, but hey, you're not Russians. So there is a chance.
That, i can agree with. I don't see the size as a problem, it's rather the propaganda that is affecting all sides involved. The Maga cult is obvious. But the opposing sides are also being actively discouraged. Your people have a lot more power in their hands than they seem to know. Pretty much the same story as in every other country.
Mine doesn't list a source (and it has very few pixels if you try to zoom in) so take it with a grain of salt, but they at least appear to be attempting to make it as close to a 1:1 comparison as possible. And I agree, we don't need the whole country to mobilize as one, but let's look at how the US has ~50 individual specks of purple separated by vast areas of white/tan/orange, even in the more well known states like New York, Texas, and California. Meanwhile, Europe is basically ALL purple and orange until you get to mountainous areas like the Scandinavian hinterland.
If I'm living in a small town in southern France and I want to protest, I could hop on the train and be in Paris in like, 6 hours at most. If I lived in a small town in let's say, the (Eastern) Midwest and wanted to do the same in Washington DC, well public transport is already out of the question in the VAST majority of cases (trains here don't visit small towns unless it's for industrial reasons), so I'm gonna have to drive myself. 6 hour drive to DC puts my starting location somewhere around Columbus, Ohio (dead center of Ohio, but arguably not even in the Midwest depending on who you ask, or at least on the outer rim of it). Pretty much anything further west than that (2/3s of the country at least) and I'm looking at a multi-day investment just to GET to the protest, not to mention all the other shit that goes along with it. You could always try protesting at the State capitals, but those will automatically be lesser in size and effectiveness (no one cares if 1 out of 50 states is having problems, that's literally happening all the time) and depending on my state, that might still be an all-day drive.
I like your idea of using the internet to help, but the reality of the situation is that without human bodies physically showing up, there's no real incentive for DC to actually DO anything. There have been millions, possibly billions, of critical things said about Trump's administration online, but that hasn't changed anything for the better.
Lastly, like you said, we both agree that propoganda is one of the biggest obstacles here, but I don't know how much we agree on us 'having more power than we seem to know'. I've seen various estimates and each time the number seems to be increasing, but roughly HALF of all American households will be out of money if they go two or three months without a paycheck. Period. We have no social safety net. If you're deemed 'good enough to work' then you better be working, otherwise you're homeless which, in this country, might as well be a death sentence. Sure, there are a small handful of exceptions to this, but they put up so many roadblocks and hoops to jump through that trying to get on and stay on Welfare is basically a job in and of itself, and they will only provide you with the bare essentials; if you even think about one luxury good, that money disappears instantly.
As much as I hate to admit it, in America, the Capitalists have won for the time being and there's really nothing to be done about it short of a complete overhaul of MOST of how this country operates
I appreciate your optimism, truly. But I wish you could try talking some sense into the average American on this topic. You would see quickly that we're a long, long ways from the days of the west coast waterfront strike and things like that. Most have been brainwashed to believe that unions are a bad thing.
Yea…like Americans help…
HALF AN HOUR! I’m laughing I’m sorry. Half an hour! Holy fuck half an hour is like a trip to the grocery store in America.
https://newsroom.aaa.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/08/202408-AAAFTS-American-Driving-Survey-2023.pdf
Oh look, a Nazi
Fuck off with protests. Holy fuck. They don't do jack shit except give the opportunity for the organizers to fill their CV and collect them like those marathon running stickers on the back of a Volvo.
Fuck
This entire time the strategy was and only ever was to protest online. You protest by building networks and creating memes and identifying when people are paying millions to convince people on the left to go commit to the most high energy low retard efforts like it described where all of us have to drive 3 hrs just to get arrested and beat up.
The internet has literally been here the whole time. Turns the fuck out that the goal is protesting is actually what is done online every single fucking day. Go figure. Meanwhile we all left social media and chose the smallest corner of the internet to exist in crying about how bad everything is. Fucking hate it here. The left fucking suck.
And that's the reason why i think that American propaganda not only effects the Maga cult. Because that's exactly what they want you to think. They don't want you to realise that you're not alone. Going out to the streets can be an effective peaceful way to make your voice heard up until the point where more drastic actions are inevitable. In 2024 it lead to a significant drop in the polls for the AfD when massive protests erupted all over Germany due to their "remigration" plans. These protests should have kept going on, but sadly they didn't. And sadly, certain media outlets kept pushing more propaganda in the time after.
One major reason for protests is to show the fellow countrymen and women what is acceptable in the society and what not. If you don't react, you give them basically a free pass on being massive assholes. Turns out that Nazis don't like it if they're outed as Nazis. They tend to go back into their dark little shithole corners and cry about it.
Protesting online isn't enough. Not by far. Especially if that place is absolutely filled to the brim with propagandists and bots. And politicians certainly don't give a flying fuck about a bunch of basement dwellers crying on social media. They do care, if those people are out on the streets. That's where people are the most inconvenient, because if people are on the streets, they have to spend time and money for organisation and police work. It binds resources. It blocks entry ways. If done right, it can shut down entire cities. And if those town's leaders are smart, they join in on the protest, because that makes them being seen. That's how my home town turned into a SPD stronghold in a state full of CSU voters.
Action starts at the lowest level in the immediate area. Not some fucking website filled with Russian, Chinese and Israeli bots.
Hey buddy, it's me from that other comment about population density. I'm not going to get too detailed in this comment cause you've got a whole other thing going with that Melvin guy, but I just wanted to say congrats on seeing some success against the AfD and Nazis and I envy your opinion that peaceful protesting can still bring great short- and long-term benefits.
Unfortunately, I still think America is too far(-right) gone for something like that to work. 7 of the 10 largest protests in American history can be directly linked back to protesting against Trump (4 of the top 5 occurred just within the last 12 months, with the last one being the Women's March of 2017 aka right as Trump's first term started) and all of these have accomplished..... well, nothing. Not a single damn thing. That's 33 million people (if you do like I did and assume the highest estimate was 100% correct and there were no overlaps, so a highly unrealistic skew in their favor), just under 10% of the entire country peacefully protesting Trump at some point aaaaand nothing happened. Hell, most people probably don't even remember a single one of the three seperate No Kings protests.
On the other hand, the Maga cult managed to storm the Capitol building with only about 2,000 protesters on Jan 6th 2021 (something like 0.0005% of the population) and even though they technically failed in their goal at the time, it had (and continues to have) FAR reaching effects on American politics. Several people died, hundreds injured, and exactly 0 negative consequences for the man who started it; Hell, he even managed to get reelected afterwards and pardon almost all of them anyway so it was really a net-positive for him by far.
We could have a good, long discussion about the ethics/morals of protesting peacefully in a vacuum, but at the end of the day, in reality, force speaks volumes. I'm not advocating we do the same and go all-in on violence right off the bat, but rather "force" which I'm defining here as "the willingness to defend one's self or ideals with violence if necessary," should not be shied away from. If we go in 'protesting' by standing on sidewalks with cardboard signs, nothing gets accomplished except leaving the road open for them to roll over us later. It is no coincidence that many of the greatest changes brought through history began as "civil disobedience" that began peacefully only to end in violence when (surprise) the State wanted to maintain the status quo. We may be hesitant to use force, they will not be so kind-hearted
Trump has spent the previous decade proving beyond a reasonable doubt that he cares only for himself, his power, and his image. He will stop at nothing to gobble up as much as he can which is why we muat be prepared to stop him by any means necessary. In the words of one of our greatest Presidents, "Speak softly, but carry a big stick"
It hasn't worked in half a century. Protest had a greater effect before the global village. But now we have a better understanding of numbers making a show of force almost useless. We have shown up 700,000,000 for causes with practically no effect. It is a new world and it's time to let go. We need to adapt yet there is an old guard holding us all back. It's about spreading a message, it's about beliefs and ideas and network and power. None of that can be achieved with protests. I would bet good money that behind many of these modern protests is actually the opposition. It is such a waste of time and effort and there is no argument in recent times that can show other wise.
You're whole argument is detailing the internet when you actually read between the lines.
We should be choosing lower effort and maximizing for effect. Protests are high effort low effect. Online culture jamming is low effort, high effect. It is logic to anyone who thinks about this honestly
Half a century? Guess the Arab spring and the Euromaidan don’t count (just examples off the top of my head)
The commenter you replied to, basically described basic human-ing for you, and why it works and has always worked, in the past.
Your rebuttal is focused on...the Internet as an object of stagnant sociocultural jamming, is that right? I think that was the gist.
I won't engage that directly at the moment, as it could just as easily be insight with poor communication skills behind it, as it could be a strange conspiracy theory, as it could be propaganda meant to deflate and discourage.
All equally plausible places to come from, because you keep repeating the same bits and not going deeper.
What is a low effort-high effect action you believe we should be taking?
On the same token, if your tactics to achieve a strategy which you've yet to share are sound...what are high effort and low effect actions we can force the opposition into making?
In the original comment they described having to drive hours to get to a protest. Does that sound like high effort to you.
Low effort is being able to sit at a desk compared to driving 3 hrs.
High effort is trying to rally millions into the street to face off against authority that has already solved protesting
It's true that protesting by absenting yourself from the corrupt mainstream kinds turns what could be a fuck-you counterculture moment into a fuck-you-im-leaving subculture...
It's just so gross out there lol. If anyone can stomach it while also not being co-opted though that's cool and I support it.
I do think protests have their place though, but it's like a cookout at the park type thing almost. You meet irl, you network, you vibe check; then you go on to do your other actions.
If some people just want to show up to vibe out and maybe put some radical slaps up that's cool too. Probably good to have more normal types in attendance to be a shield for more radical elements.
It's a long line of ‘you should just protest/vote harder’ countries, unfortunately
It's a state election, in a relatively small state, it's bad, but it's not the end of democracy in Germany just yet. There are two more state elections in two weeks, AfD is predicted to be strongest in one of those states (MV) too, but not nearly as bad, as there is still a possibility for a stable government there. I'm not too worried about the other election in Berlin.
MAGA started as a small section of the republican party known as the tea party. They were thought of as an annoying but small group that was likely to fade on its own. People here thought the small wins weren’t important either and here we are. Once that shit catches on it spreads like a wildfire.
Eh, we've kinda seen the opposite in the Netherlands. Far-right party got in right-wing coalition, things obviously failed to work out for them as they were completely dysfunctional, and they were punished in the next election. In countries without FPTP it's much harder for these kinds of parties to get in control.
Yeah the last years I always thought it is just a matter of time until far right gets majorities in Germany/all over Europe as well.
Greetings from germany
Welcome to the Assholocene.
....so BadEmpanada WAS right! https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-H5m_BeJoQA&pp=ygUiIGJhZCBlbXBhbmFkYSBhbWVyaWNhbnMgZG9tdCBmaWdodA%3D%3D
I recommend reading more than watching youtubers.
For example, there's a book that should be available online too (an older edition). I can't mention it here for some reasons, so the ISBN is: 9781629630373
I typed it into google and cant find it. Can you bastardize the name of it please so that then Ill just put the name back together and tyoe that into google? Do you mind DMing me please if it doesnt work?
Alright European lemmings... You've been lecturing us American lemmings for several years about what you'd do if fascism started creeping into power in your country. Now's your chance, show us how it's really done.
Just let it fester into a horrible world war and the problem will solve itself
Ok, watch and learn. By the time it's done it may be too late for you tho.
OK, we're watching...
feddit.it? Like Italy? Like "Benito Mussolini's bloodline is still in politics?" Like "already has a right-populist government"? Seems like you're not trending the right direction there.
Yeah exactly. And despite this, and despite the US using its post-WWII influence to keep us a fascist state, we have resisted and we have better worker protections, universal healthcare, unemployment assistance, and so on. And we have the guts to do something, unlike Americans.
I have no doubt they will, actually.
I mean, this party didn't just spring out of nowhere. They've been building power for years now.
So, maybe you should doubt a little bit.
I have serious doubt, but I'd prefer to be shown up as a monumentally incorrect fool. Defeating fascism is a lot more important than petty schadenfreude.
We won't, unless Germany somehow gets invaded by France. Only they know how to revolt, and we can't/won't communicate with them..
The same France in which the far right candidate leads the polls for 2027's presidential elections?
No, that one can go fuck itself
AfD winning is a grave moment for Europe, but nobody should be listening to mainstream politicians about anything since they're half the cause of this mess.
More than half, if you're talking about centrist/conservative politicians.
The other half belongs to their rich backers.
As if there's a difference.
No! There is a difference
One iis a group of genocidal millionaires the other is a group of genocidal billionaires.
This is playing into pro-AfD propaganda. "Mainstream politicians" didn't suddenly change and become less competent than before.
The re-emergence of fascism in the West has nothing to do with the failure of "mainstream politicians" to address problems. This is especially true in East Germany, where living standards have risen dramatically since the fall of communism.
Maybe, but they're less restrained due to the death of radical labor. There's a reason social welfare in most of Europe develops to more or less its current state between 1945 and the 80s and just stops there.
Actually increases in standard of living have proportionally basically the same in all of Germany since then, but also that doesn't make the housing crisis or insane energy prices sting any less. Radical politics in general takes off due to a perception that the mainstream politics isn't doing the job.
That's largely because social democrats did what they set out to do and delivered on their promises, which left them questioning what was left to do. In essence, the social democrats are victims of their own success.
That's not to say European social democracies are some kind of utopia (nor that I personally think there is nothing left to improve), but they are still the strongest economies in the world. There is emphatically no economic reason that explains the recent surge in popularity of fascist parties.
That relative increase in HDI is more impactful when starting from a lower value. Sure, there is still a gap between West and East Germany, but it's much less than it used to be. The development of unemployment rates especially has been a dramatic improvement.
Housing prices and living costs are especially high in places like Munich, Frankfurt/Main and Hamburg... where the AfD is especially weak. The AfD is strongest in areas that are the most affordable.
Exactly, a perception. And where does that perception come from? Before the 90s, media were dominated and curated by intellectuals. Nowadays, they are dominated by racist and fascist hate speech. And this obviously benefits racist and fascist parties.
It does sound like the:
notion that helped bring Trump to power in the US.
So, I don't want to say this isn't worrying and this party definitely needs to be banned, but the article almost only mentions as a foot note that this has been long coming.
The last election saw them as second strongest party in that same state. This is not a full election, this is just for that single state where historically lots of people are voting for them.
So yeah, terrible, but also this has been building up for a while in that specific region.
I think that actually makes it worse. The signs were there and instead of acting on it and opposing the xenophobic narrative, the big parties jumped on the bandwagon, hoping to pry the racist voters off of the AfD, but instead they assured the voters in their fear, pushing them further right.
I'm gonna continue screaming into a pillow now.
Funny, Channel 5 just re-released a video about the far right in Germany, which mentioned the exact province of Saxony Anhalt, and how there was an outcry against immigrants there even though the population of immigrants in that part of Germany is extremely low
It's always the people with 0 immigrants living near them bitching about immigrants.
I guess the people who have immigrants around them know all of this anti immigration bullshit is obviously bullshit.
100% always the case with the people who have the least amount of contact with a specific minority. It’s very easy to manipulate people into hating someone they personally don’t know.
I wonder how much this has to do with musk owning twitter, larry ellison owning tiktok, and zuckerberg owning rest
Thank the corrupt and elitist fucks of CxU and SPD for a couple of decades of cutting access to education and ignoring the problems of those under their rule. And fuck you, Frotze, in particular!
A little black for the pots that call the kettles in the US black. See guys, were all infested with fascists on the inside.
Bro thinks one state in one country of the union is the same as you idiot voting Donald in twice, your a fool.
I didn't vote for Trump once. If you think it's just East Germany that's your problem, you're in for a rude awakening. Your fascists are the same as the US fascists, just as dumb and the same propensity for violence.
Strap in friend, liberalism is dying in the western world and there isn't a think you or I can do.
I'm Canadian, we booted ours out immediately once he made it clear he was in league with Donald.
Might want to turn your eyes to Alberta then. Lucky for you your right-wing freaks were pushed back under a rock when Trump 2.0 started. They won't stay quiet for long. As Canada deteriorates they'll climb back out.
You mean the province that consistently votes 75% to say in Canada, yah keep talking out your ass.
Bro, y'all have a fascist problem too. Carney probably wouldn't have won if Trump didn't threaten annexation. You'd have PP the Trump admirer.
I'm not trying to talk shit here. Be wary of the fascists within your own border too.
It happen as soon as Donald won and opened his big mouth, no shit everyone swapped, especially once pp started panicking and choking in the poles,the swing happen.
don't tell my the history of event of my own country dumbass, I know it better then you
You losers are just desprate to point fingers at others who were actually able to deal with these problems to make yourselves feal better, it's pathetic and the exact reason why nobody outside the US likes Americans.
In-fucking-deed!
And then people ask me 'hOw CaN yOu Be MiSaNthRopE' ?
...Like....have people not read of most of human history? Its just a New Idiot©®™ or a New Group Of Idiots©®™ making the same ignorant , racist miistakes over and over and over again...
... except the communiists. Mostt of them didnt make this mistake of being racist , self-destructive , greedy twats. The Internationale and all that jazz.
Humans learn. Really well, actually, which is part of the problem. Humans have metadeveloped knowledge such that we can believe things that aren't true, or are only partially true, in order to manipulate views of reality. Our own emotions can drive faithful, real beliefs that warp reality.
We do learn, pedantically. That is not necessarily the problem.
The reason I'm inclined to chime in here, pedantically, is because I think it's important to try to correctly identify the problem. Yes, "humans never learn" in subtext is true. But, because of how far telecommunications have developed, and now with AI and state sponsored psyops and all of that, we have to be better than the old statements like "humans never learn", which, I believe, at this point, equates to a vague, overwhelming and demotivating thought ending cliche.
Maybe, instead, say, "we must learn to overcome this", because at least there, while still vague, presents a problem to be identified and solved, rather than pessimistically Eeyore'ing.
We CAN do this, it just requires an intellectual vigilance and moral deliberation unlike we (humanity) have not seen in a long, long time.
Definitely. Together is how we overcome.
This is not human nature, the problem is a culture strain that's about 8000 years old.
Wonderful day, dear @[email protected] or a fellow human who learns, I believe, as many others!
The history of humanity is slow walking into disaster, consistently and unceasingly.
Remember that Simpsons episode where homer kept walking into the rake over and over and over? Ya thats us
Wasn't that Krusty?
Edit: no it was Bob, right?
Edit 2: It was bob
And it's not just a single episode. It became a running gag.
Even the ultra-fascist space marine is shocked?
musk and putin helping with the messaging that is.
Probably the same patterns the book Democracy in Chains discusses. The same history since the first hoarding and the power/wealth inequalities that came with it. The wealth pays for the armies and to protect the wealthy. Those with the money and power win and write the rules and history. The systems say, "believe us we know what's right". The problems are caused by the wealth inequality, but blamed on minorities and changing too fast can't deal with it, and only they have the solution, so dig in deeper and accept these new rules on free speech and protests against the ruler. Usa has the nazi ice abduct, abuse and put people in concentration camps that make the wealthy owners even richer, just like happened in olden days, already forgot, or some want to repeat it.
Owners get richer,
The more people they put in,
Concentration camps
My guess is the AFD will try to install similar systems as orban did in Hungary. Once AFD functionaries can get their hands on might and government money they will try to tuck as much as possible into their pockets. They talk about patriotism but only act in their own self-interest. They dont even have real plans or visions on how to improve their voters live and are not able to give real substantial answers to journalists questions. But this doesn't matter to a lot of voters because they are either too frustrated by their own lives or the corrupt shit other political parties did or just brain rotted from tik tok. The AFD talking about patriotism makes them feel good and so they can neglect the fact that the AFD will make their live even worse and they can also neglect that the AFD will do ten times the corrupt shit the "mainstream" parties did. It's like a drug making you feel good even while facing doom.
Yep. Legally mediated authoritarianism. Same as Project 2025.
Has anyone stopped to actually ask the people there why they voted that way or what they hope to achieve?
Standard fascist playbook. They point to existing problems, and promise it's the fault of immigrants/minorities etc.
Ultimately what needs to be done is to solve those existing problems. You get extremists like this when the people feel like there's something wrong that the "mainstream" politicians are unable or unwilling to fix.
Absolutely! The bigger problem is the "centrist" politicians are useless. Almost all politicians are wealthy class, not rocking the boat is in their interests. Most of the time they are part of the problem. So everywhere we end with the choice between parasites who'd rather do nothing and just profit off whatever corruption they can get away with, or parasites who equally profit from the system but are also nazis.
True change can only come from a bottom up movement, masses make demands so politics give in. NGOs, unions, student movements etc are the way to get our rights. We want rights, benefits, we need to ask for it properly, with strikes, protests, soup kitchens, activism. Worshiping power just makes us more miserable.
...soup kitchens and protests?!
"Destrouy The Current Awful Economic System From ....A SOup Kitchen! Nothing Is To BE Done!"
-Volademort Libin
No, volunteering and protesting won't destroy the system. You need a fight in many fronts. Reaching to people and building your community of dissidenta is key to that. You cannot have a revolution without solidarity.
So has public education been gutted in Germany like it has been in the US? Trying to figure out why people still fall for this.
Education alone doesn't prevent people from being mislead by propaganda. Everyone is vulnerable to it, even i am. The key is to recognise it and be open enough to change your mind if you get new information. That's one of the parts that's sadly missing for a lot of people. Other parts are lacking media competency, because apparently a lot of people are unable to determine whether a Youtuber with a name like "truthwarrier88" is a trustworthy source comparable to DW or whatever. And then there is the issue of Russian propaganda and American social media platforms refusing to moderate their cesspools due to a twisted sense of "free speech". Well, and i guess that Covid thing also fried a few brains...
Propaganda works, it is highly effective. Scapegoating plays on human psychology very well. This will always work, there is no inoculation to protect society. You have to stop the behavior.
bernie sanders is not in any way a 'leftist'.
He's a liberal zionist for one. And also he has never said he wants to eternally end capitalism. He also works with AOCIA ...the same aoc who is ALSO a liberal zionist AND she takes money from Big Pharma companies to retell their lies.
He's a SocDem, so the most right-wing of the leftist spectrum. Always a disappointment.
You are CORRECT!
The socialist democrsts are one and the same in every part of the planet and in every part of history. They have never changed will never change. And so I will never trust them lol.
"Wer hat uns verraten? Sozialdemokraten!" Never forgive . Never forget.
Channel 5 released a video about them yesterday: https://youtu.be/l2SjWowpynY
It’s essentially the same playbook. The ones leading the movement are telling the people it’s the immigrants and LGBTQ+ people who are to blame. But when they are asked what is actually affecting them personally, it’s economic policy, affordability, etc.
And why does it work?
the capitalistic system that we have created makes it so easy to become a racist or even an interbalized racist as I wass . Not only do those in power (billionaires and multi millionaires) fund smear campaigns against minorities and 2SLGBTQIA+ people but this system we have put in place makes it very easy for the average worker to unconciouusly become "anti-minority" or even 'anti-anyone who isnt super rich' because those who hold the most capital or have hhad the ability to obtain the most capital have become very good at painting themselves as saints when they are the cause of most of the world's iniquities and we have fallen for it all. Its a self-sustaining system that has to.be completely , permanently broken up
"In keeping with their system-sustaining function, the major news media present reality as a scatter of events and subjects that ostensibly bear little relation to each other or to a larger set of social relations. Consider a specic phenomenon like racism. Racism is presented as essentially a set of bad attitudes held by racists. There is little analysis of what makes it so functional for a class society. Instead, race and class are treated as mutually exclusive concepts in competition with each other. But those who have an understanding of class power know that as class contradictions deepen and come to the fore, racism becomes not less but more important as a factor in class conflict. In short, both race and class are likely to be crucial arenas of struggle at the very same time. Marxists further maintain that racism involves not just personal attitude but institutional structure and systemic power. They point out that racist organizations and sentiments are often propagated by well-nanced reactionary forces seeking to divide the working populace against itself, fracturing it into antagonistic ethnic enclaves. Marxists also point out that racism is used as a means of depressing wages by keeping a segment of the labor force vulnerable to super-exploitation. To see racism in the larger context of corporate society is to move from a liberal complaint to a radical analysis. Instead of thinking that racism is an irrational output of a basically rational and benign system, we should see it is a rational output of a basically irrational and unjust system. By “rational” I mean purposive and functional in sustaining the system that nurtures it." -Michael PArenti
"In all regions studied here, incorporation into the capitalist world-system was associated with a decline in wages to below subsistence, a deterioration in human stature, and an upturn in premature mortality. In parts of South Asia, sub-Saharan Africa, and Latin America, key welfare metrics have still not recovered. Where progress has occurred, significant improvements in human welfare began several centuries after the rise of capitalism. In the core regions of Northwest Europe, progress began in the 1880s, while in the periphery and semi-periphery it began in the mid-20th century, a period characterized by the rise of anti-colonial and socialist political movements that redistributed incomes and established public provisioning systems.". Capitalism and extreme poverty: A global analysis of real wages, human height, and mortality since the long 16th century by Dylan Sullivan and Jason Hickel
The last part is relevant. For the underclass masses in the colonies, fascism was already there. So a different way to word the situation is that fascism is when settler-colonialism happens to the mass imperial class.
They want the immigrants and the evil trans people out and more like it used to be.
Of course this is all rooted in bad economy and infrastructure, especially in east Germany. And the Afd is unfortunately really good at presenting easy solutions to hard problems by blaming minorities for everything. They do this very effectively via tiktok and other new media which the old parties have not been able to unterstand yet.
From what I've seen, especially in local elections, the AfD simply promises anything and everything people in that area want. For example, I was recently on holiday in a small town where AfD won. Small touristic town, lots of farmland, very rural. The usual problems: young people move away, only businesses connected to tourism thrive, basic infrastructure like supermarkets or doctors close down. Also water scarcity for farmers (hello climate change). The AfD program was this: we will stop young people from moving away by building a trade school. We will monitor the water levels. We will attract new supermarkets. Basically: we will solve every major problem. How? Who cares! But we're seeing all the problems and solving them. Some vague mentions of the federal government not doing their job, but they (the AfD members from a small town in bumfuck nowhere) will MAKE THEM give the town money and just solve all those problems.
Sure, other parties don't always listen to the voters. But at least you usual get the feeling they thought about what solutions are reasonable. AfD just lists all problems and says "We'll solve it all, trust me bro."
Not to forget their favorite word "ideolgy-free" which just translates too: You like something the way it is? You hate it when science finds out your favorite thing is bad for you/everyone? Don't worry. We won't make pesky laws to protect you, your neighbors or the air you breathe. Just keep doing the thing that's been proven to be harmful. Change and progress are always bad and we are the only ones that understand that.
I mean, I can't say I would see a reason to vote against that if I didn't think they were lying and just using it as a way to get control. If one guy is pointing out the problem and saying we'll figure out a solution or we have a solution, and the other is trying to find reason to say it's not a problem, I'll take the former. At least one of them figured out the pain points - the other bunch are at best inconsiderate if not just oblivious.
We need left and lib candidates to get down to the real issues. Mamdani is finally showing that in the USA.
Yes, because "they're eating the dogs", basically.
Facebook boomers and edgy incel youths.
Who wants to solve this issue?
Who's willing to become the "actually leftist" politician in an age, where they're being both hunted down by neo-nazis, tankies, and being likened to the very liberals (and sometimes conservatives), who got this mess onto our heads?
well the 'actuallt leftist' people of Germanty need to rise up and make an actual Marxist - Leninist Party. This applies to all other people of the global north too. Just laying down and accepting this wont do.
If the average Germans wants to plunge themselves back into WWIII and apocalypse ? Them thats their problem. scientific socialism and the material conditions of the German people will determine what the future of Germant and even future of Eurasia looks like for the next coming decades....
The "Marxist-Leninist" shit is why we're in this fucking mess. That's why people equate communism with crackpot dictators.
It's going to get worse. Right wing governments are taking over.
Racism and Racial Discrimination is entirelly normalized across the political spectrum in the country which unwaveringly supports a Genocidal nation mass murdering children because of their ethnicity, and does so very overtly because of the dominant ethnicity of that nation, so it's hardly unexpected that a party that supports Racism and Racial discrimination specifically "to favor us" would grow so big so fast there.
When the German Public Opinion field keeps getting seeded by just about all German political forces and most of its Press with the view that people's Race should determine how they are viewed, judged and treated, it will naturally nurture and repeatedly yield a harvest of Nazism.
We will never learn from our mistakes.
Unequalities feed far right movements !
and every far right movement has protected apitalism and capitalists in all forms it ever takes.
Heck, the comoany thatt make Dr. oetcker food is guilty of aiding the nazis and NOBODY from that company was punished!?! Same thing with ford the american car manufacuring company!?
...Why?
Gross.
Germany: just consistently the bad guys. Its almost comforting.
I would say it feels good to watch another country absolutely fucking shit themselves like the U.S. but…….. send help please.
Edit: and muskhole would absolutely send his congrats. That dude is a fucking Nazi and needs to be yeeted into space.
the fact one side was pushing for the criminalization of the other probably didn't help
Why do politicians fail to understand what the underlying problem is? AfD is not using some tricks. They just listen to the people and address pain pojnts. And as long as I read headlines such as “politicians express alarm”, then I know that nothing is going to change. AfD is the ONLY option people have, as all the other parties are even worse for middle and low class citizens.
The success of AfD is because we have incapable and corrupt politicians that rather blindly support Isreal instead of missing that beautiful €50k donation. So fuck off. Well deserved. And I fucking hate the current situation, including the extreme views of the AfD.
No the other parties are not worse for middle and lower class citizens. AfD is a populist party, promising everything but delivering nothing.
Expert analyses of their manifesto have concluded that the only people to benefit would be rich people. The actual policies of the AfD suck for lower and middle class citizens.
Don't fall for their lies.
Look into the US and you know that this plan is successful. It does not even matter what the party is delivering. That’s the whole problem. Morals and ethics do not matter. The immoral and unethical politician is always going to win. The politicians playing by the rules will always lose.
We had so many fucking years to exactly see that, and yet in the US and even here they fail to address the issue properly.
I know and never said that wasn't the case. I just wanted to address that you said that "all other parties are worse than the AfD for lower and middle class people", which is just not true. That's one of their lies.
time to restore the GDR and denazify (for real) germany this time
🙏🏽 Amen comrade 🙏🏿
"Time to restore a extremist dictatorship to avoid the other extremist dictatorship. Fuck off. How about "democracy must be preserved" instead?
That person has a pfp of Mao. They love dictators it seems
"hurr hurr revolutionary leaders bad only voting good" Why are you surprised with Mao being in my pfp? I am a literal marxist leninist and mao is probably the greatest marxist leninist ever
Ah so Marxist leninists love a singular tyrannical dictator? I didnt realize Mao was a "the proletariate".
What a strange thing for you to support. You clearly dont know this, but revolutionary leaders can be good! I'd suggest you learn your history. Voting can be good but its not always the answer. Don't worry you will understand with some learning
must not gigaquote
Never said that. Mao was a leader of the chinese proletariat
I know revolutionary leaders are good thats why I support Mao, Stalin, Lenin, Castro, Ho Chi Minh, etc.
Nah, Mao was a straight up tyrannical dictator. Your other idols aren't a great bunch either. Being a police fanboy is messed up
Mao was not a dictator, not by the liberal definition even. How am I a police fanboy? My idols are some of the greatest individuals ever who fought for the liberation of working class and hence the liberation of humanity
GDR was indeed extremist dictatorship
extreme left, dictatorship of the proletariat
bourgeosie democracy is not real democracy, I am gald its getting fucked
Ok, I thought you were being sarcastic at first
local liberal surprised by existence of marxist leninists
Fuck off tankie. Go lick Putin's boots
...but Putin is not a communist. ..If anything thee invasion of northern Ukraine is further proof of how much of not a communist Pootin is lol
shut up libshit, go lick genocide joe's boots
this retard thinks every communist supports putin, fuck you
Show me one far-right party or government that hasn't been absolutely useless, or caused more problems than they've solved.
You've got to let these things play out. People will realise they are a bunch of morons, just you wait.
Not a big fan of history, I take it. Google "the holocaust" and let us know how that worked out in the past.
No. It would be vastly preferable if this were nipped in the bud. Need I remind you how many people died in WWII, not to mention the human cost of fascism elsewhere?
While I do agree with the general trend that many of these populist fascists are incomponent at leading, it's better to not roll those dice in the first place. We should never accept it as inevitable.
Agreed on both counts, but how? Here in UK we've had brexit and Reform. You can try to talk these people out of believing right-wing nonsense until you're blue in the face. It doesn't work - they'll call 'fake news' or accuse you of talking down to them. The only thing that seems to work is letting it happen and allowing them to draw their own conclusions.
If you have any good ideas on what to do I'm all ears.
These are all complicated, and every country is different, but a necessary part of the short term solution, is to focus on the people doing the manipulating, and fighting them, and their interests.
Long term, right-wing nonsense doesn't hold up, and you can convince people, and help them move past that if they let go, but short term, they are just subservient to whatever the head of the movement-cult says.
The people leading those movements, are people. In very, very extreme cases, Luigi can help, but most of the time, they're rich fucks who want to get richer.
Direct opposition to their interests, works.
Greece where I'm from, has a "sold out government" problem, and our public sector is being dismantled and sold for parts, but there's a few tiny victories, where the routes for capital investment are blocked, in the last few years. Both 1) Anarchist squats block international hotel chain investment firms, and 2) beureaucratic safety laws do hold up, and block private colleges from trying to make a quick buck, resulting in reduced political pressure against the public education system.
Fighting on whichever level one has capacity for, works, whether it's from inside or outside the law. Just make it more expensive for the rich fucks to get richer.
You cannot force those who are too dumb to see the error of their ways to do something. You'll only breed contempt and embolden them more. There is no nipping this in the bud. You won't convince these people they're wrong. They must come to it on their own. Hopefully not many of us have to die.
Take the MAGA movement for example. We've been telling these idiots for years that they're wrong and they won't listen. Only now that the policies negatively affect them do you see some changing their tunes.
Did you just... Does your primary argument contain "Hopefully, not many of us have to die." ???
Jesus Christ.
Look, you're right that it's just as impossible to convince a zealot (idiots who stand to gain from being obedient), as it is to insult someone back into logic (idiots who don't, but are too stupid to realize).
But don't despair and give up, because you'll be giving fascists what they invested for, with all their propaganda aimed at making you despair.
Just keep in mind, the way to change things is not to fight the vulnerable zealots for their cooperation with the authoritarian, it's to fight the authoritarian. The rich fucks are the ones who give the speeches, and lie and manipulate the zealots.
Fight the rich fucks, and fight them as early as possible. That's what nipping this in the bud (or in this case, early stalk lol) means.
It's not giving up, it's more concentrating my efforts where I can affect progress. I've been dealing with the MAGA morons for a decade now and have made ZERO progress convincing even a single member of anything. I'm willing to bet the German far-right aren't much different. I'd much rather focus my efforts at my own political party that I can actually change.
Yeah, it worked really well historically, and with absolutely no negative side effects whatsoever
That's not lost on me, my point is what exactly is to be done about it?
I hope that fair and extensive education and a transparent discussion of issues in the society would help. I'm yet to see a society that tries this, so maybe it's also not going to work
This is false. Have you ever been around just a single AfD voter? They aren't driven by "reason". They hate reason. To them, it's just another devious tool of the "elite," i.e. academics, Greens, and the "leftist" establishment.
What the AfD achieves or not hardly matters, except for one thing: "the immigrants." If you paid any attention, their voters have been screaming for quite a while, mouths foaming:
"AfD is the strongest party in this city/ county/ state, and has been for more than a month. And yet, yesterday I saw another immigrant on the streets! When will this finally be cleaned up?"
That's what we are up against. Not in any way rational actors.
Well, no, I'm not German. But they sound an awful lot like Brexiteers and Reform/Restore UK voters.
That's exactly my point.
Fine, but what's your solution?
A parallel state. You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into. They're a lost cause. The solution is to create a parallel state within the state that can support a coalition of the willing while the far right suffers the consequences of their own failed policies. The most viable path to this is to hide such a parallel state under the protections of religious freedom, forming a "church" that can mirror the effective role of the state, and form a legally protected logistical and administrative backbone for resistance.
That's actually a pretty clever idea. But its not something an individual can do alone.
Oh if you try to fight this on an individual level, you're just going to fail. Full stop, cannot make a difference. You can nibble at the edges by developing relationships with those only weakly attached to such movements. Don't try to change their minds make them reliant on you and when you matter more to them than groups like MAGA and AfD then you can start getting them to question their prior assumptions, but that's going to be slow and ultimately futile in the grand scheme. Solidarity and organization is the only possible way forward. Start at the community level and work outward, gradually connecting different local groups.
People don't like immigration, and the only parties that promise to do anything against it are the extreme right wing ones. That's how they get their votes.
Until other parties wake up and realise that they should tackle the immigration problem, the fascist will always have that trick to get votes.
Hillary, that you?
Please describe to me how immigration is a problem that needs to be dealt with rather than allowing for visa free movement between borders. And how immigration is anything but a means to control the average person and prevent them from seeking a better life elsewhere?
Sure, I'll try!
There is nothing inherently wrong about borders. You're probably very happy your house has a border. Wolf packs have borders. Borders are useful.
As I see it, borders are physical manifestations of a social construct. You know, like money, flags, medals, wedding gowns, etc etc. And just like all of these, borders have a social purpose for the tribe within. In their case it's to distinguish between "us" and "them". Why make that distinction? Because tribes must pool their resources to thrive. That includes material things like food and shelter, but also immaterial resources like labor, safety, clean water, you name it.
But sharing has two hard requirements: reciprocity and trust. Without either, you cannot pool your resources without risk of getting taken advantage of. Why invest in a common good that might not be there for you when YOU need it? That's why reciprocity and trust are so fundamental to human relations! We built an entire society about signals of trust, about showing other people you are "us" and not "them".
Long story short, tribes ("us") guard their pooled resources from outsiders ("them"). That's why Germans can't collect their pension from Mongolian state funds. Nationalities, then, are a shorthand for calculating whether a person has contributed to a tribe's resources and is therefore an "us".
There's a ton of valid(!) arguments to be made about which kinds of borders are fair, or which immigrants deserve our pooled resources. But that's not my point here, I'm here to argue that visa are useful and serve a purpose (which is not bullying outsiders, but protecting INsiders)
Hmmmm sounds like exclusionary tribal bullshit ideas to me. Specifically based off of ones locating from the global north where resources are hoarded rather than pooled.
Ah, you dont really want an explanation. You wanr to be mad.
No I want you to realize your view point on borders is directly based from a hoarders mentality.
Specifically that that the current migration crisises are generally direct results of northern and western imperialism. Every time I hear a European complain about migrants, all I think is that your grandparents shouldn't have fucking colonized their country, then maybe they wouldn't be there.
And don't get me started on the US, fuck the US.
In Germany we can see that the people who don't like immigrants are the ones that almost have no immigration.
So you see there is sth. that doesn't make sense.
Also the far right blame alien people for the problems and claim dealing with immigrants solves that. However we know what the actual issue is. Rich companies and rich people.
But the common people only see shit is bad, probably immigrants. Because BILD newspaper said so.
But the CDU is also promising to tackle immigration, and has actually delivered on some of it during their government. They were halved this election.
The fascist can always jump to the next topic. Immigration isn't even the original boogeyman, there's always another "other". You can't beat them at their own game, they'll always promise a more radical, more "effective" solution, meaning you'll never "do enough". The only thing you'll do is legitimize their viewpoint.
You need to address why people are looking for a boogeyman. And that's because many of them appear to be worse off than they were a decade ago. They're angry at traditional parties because they messed up economically and standard of living is going down. Address that, and you take away the oxygen that fuels the fire. Immigration didn't cause the standard of living to go down, promising you'll end it legitimizes those who claim it does.
We do not have an "immigration problem", and copying the far-right does nothing, as shown in multiple studies: https://cloud.karakeep.app/public/lists/gf3gklfyh1tw7ngqb0n2aonj
Saschen-Anhalt has barely any immigrants and a population older than Jesus. The few immigrants there are, are trying to keep the old fucks alive. What are other parties supposed to do about that?