They were perfectly okay with all those things as long as it didn't hurt them. Hell they celebrated most of it.
These same people claiming they made a mistake will absolutely support the next asshole that "speaks to them." They all want a white Christian nation and will support whomever they think will give them that.
I think most of them would even vote for him again given the opportunity.
The delusion that this isn't what the US has always stood for. The state is not your friend. This nation is and always has been the enemy of the working class.
No he didn't. He is the hypercharged image of Corporate America, the future we've been building towards for the last fifty years. Capital made carnal. If it disgusts you, well, it should.
Nah, people.dont research. None of that was known. They know only what fox news lies about. And anything opposing those views are just evil Democrats smearing him and lying because theres no proof!
That's what the intellectually lazy and liars say, anyway. Because all of that was absolutely known by anyone who paid a modicum of attention to sources that weren't 100% regime aligned.
I'm sorry, I was being the voice of the conservative hicks living in falling down shacks with trump signs all over, not an educated human. I think people mistook my comment to be my actual thoughts 😅
I know these degenerates in real life, you cannot use facts with them. They won't ever believe it if it goes against Dear Leader, to them anything that does is a democrat scam.
These are people who really believe They (democrats/Soros) bussed in immigrants and set out pallets of bricks for riots in Minneapolis. Unrefutably they believe that as fact. 🙄
As a leftist, I dislike this sentiment. We should not normalize isolating folks on the far right.
Of course, do what you want with your friend groups. Kick someone out if you don't like hanging with them. But if you can swing it, there are a lot of cases where it can be really good thing to expose conservative folks to leftist worldviews in a friendly setting.
I feel including conservative folks has a much more direct and convincing theory of change than excluding them does.
I agree with the sentiment and have practiced this for years -- it was pounded into me during my education-- but have not found any balance in it. The evils stay evil and I feel like they thrive on my making room for them. Its very odd that some otherwise sane and caring people can have these parts of their personalities that are completely distinct from the rest of how they think, and it doesn't make any sense to me personally. Usually the biggest hurdle is around Israel support. So we stay friends, but I think they are evil shits and they think I'm a peacenik moron who is naive out of touch with the real world (I think).
I'm not certain, but I think at its core is racism and lack of respect for others, while wishing them well at the same time. So they want to tell themselves they are good people, but hate on certain ethnic groups. Kind of a "I'm going to shoot you in the head but I feel bad about it" sort of thing. Ironically they dont know a single thing about islam, and universally dont know any muslims.
They tend to be middle class too-- truly middle, and well above average intelligence, mostly with career success. They dont worry about money, really ever. Victims of propoganda? I still dont know.
Kind of a "I'm going to shoot you in the head but I feel bad about it" sort of thing.
Not sure if you were making a reference, but one of Israel’s most distinctive propaganda tactics is literally called Shooting And Crying. Basically, get your former IDF soldiers to act all sad about the atrocities they had to commit, so the public focus stays on sympathy instead of the war crimes and genocides they committed. Nobody feels good about kicking a crying person while they’re down, so it’s a way to shunt blame and avoid being held accountable for your own actions.
Basically, divert the blame onto the shadowy and faceless “they”. They ordered me to do bad things. They put me in situations where I was forced to make impossible choices. They forced me to struggle to survive. They are the reason I had to do all of those awful things. Because “they” is a faceless amorphous entity that can’t be held accountable and can’t defend itself against allegations. Meaning “they” is easy to shift blame onto as long as I remain a sympathetic victim in the public’s mind. If I keep crying, I never actually have to apologize for my war crimes, because they should be the ones apologizing instead.
I've been doing a little bit of this with someone I work with. The thing that really got her attention was me pointing out I can't make a gallon of gas by myself, buy I can make a kilowatt of electricity with stuff I have lying around my house/yard. And that equipment will make me more kilowatts, for free.
The thing that really got her attention was me pointing out I can't make a gallon of gas by myself, buy I can make a kilowatt of electricity with stuff I have lying around my house/yard.
Yeah, the Technology Connections video on solar panels vs ethanol production (growing corn to turn into ethanol to add to gasoline) was honestly a great tool for convincing people who simply never bothered to think critically about it. I don’t even need to get them to watch the video, I simply paraphrase some of the arguments he makes.
Alec is a treasure. I have some moderately terrifiying switches and I need to figure out a way to send them to him, even if he didn't do a video he would probably like them.
If they don't have left wing friends they would only have right wing friends, and surely they won't ever change their mind in that environment.
To be real that attitude is a little abusive, "be like I want or I left you!" kind of deal. Preying on vulnerable people that would change themselves just out of fear of being alone. I don't want that. I want convince people of my views because they see how good they are, not because I threatened them.
"Look, my family aren't bad people. All they did was turn their heads when the Nazis came door to door looking for people. It's not like they PERSONALLY did any of that. They just wanted the economy working again."
Sorry to say this, but your family voted for trump knowing who he is and what he would do to people. They are not good people. Ignorant and selfish people aren't generally good people.
And it hurts to hear it, but you need to acknowledge the facts of reality. I've gone through this recently with my fuckhead uncle, and it still hurts a bit when the stupid fuck tries to get me to call him, but I keep telling him no because he won't change who he is and I want nothing to do with people like that. And it's ok to acknowledge that your family aren't good people, but I wont pretend it's easy to do. You can keep them in your life if you have the energy to try to change them, but know that you can't change someone who doesn't want to change.
But it is not easy to be a good person when you're surrounded by media that try to make everything look ok, even if it isn't. I'm not trying to justify every person who voted for Trump and I don't think all of them are bad people, but they're stupid tho.
But it is not easy to be a good person when you're surrounded by media that try to make everything look ok, even if it isn't.
I never said it was easy. But as someone who grew up constantly having fox news and limbaugh shoved down my throat for 10-15 years, I know first had just how hard it is, and that it can be done if you want to do it.
I'm not trying to justify every person who voted for Trump and I don't think all of them are bad people
We can agree to disagree on this point. Even from alt-right sources, they knew he was going to do shit like deport anyone and everyone he could, and would embolden the police to be even more over the top than they already were. The problem is these people see shit like that as a good thing, which is why they are bad people.
I personally don't care why someone voted for trump, the individual reasons are unimportant when they knew the kinds of horrors he would unleash on us. That's why they are bad people. They knowingly made this choice, and from my interactions with magats around me, they're only upset that the leopards are eating the wrong faces but would probably still vote for him again if they could (and anyone who tells you otherwise is most likely lying, just like after 2020).
Because I managed to internalize the Catholic morals I was raised with instead of just paying them lip service. Going to university and getting out from under that mental blanket helped a lot.
Also, the whole gamergate controversy snapped me out of whatever conservative mentalities I had when I saw the type of person I was becoming.
But it is not easy to be a good person when you’re surrounded by media that try to make everything look ok
Not easy, no. But absolutely possible. There were absolutely Germans in Nazi Germany that didn't just go along with what was happening. A lot of them fled the country. A lot of them helped the resistance in any way they could.
Turning your brain off and giving in to mass delusion is lazy and wrong.
Don't pretend. Stop trying to not rock the boat. The kindest thing you can do for your loved ones is to help them find their way out of the darkness, you can't do that if you won't acknowledge reality, to their face.
Hey friend, you're not alone in that pain. But please don't let the hurt and anger blind you. We don't talk about weasels like that. Comparing them to Trump like that is unreasonably cruel to weasels.
If you are voting to take away my basic rights and safety we can't be friends. That includes 100% of Trump voters, 90% of Republicans and about 30% of Democrats. If you include less basic rights that unfortunately includes another 30-60% of Democrats or so but hierarchy of needs and all that.
Yeah, especially on my husband's side, we've had to cut contact with some extended family. I'm trans, and we're not even out about my past to these family members on his side of the family. I met my husband after transition. They're Southern Baptist deep south folk, and while they're quite friendly when we meet them, they also don't know about my trans status.
My natural inclination is to not rock the boat in such matters. I didn't suggest we cut off contact; I didn't want to be responsible for cutting my husband off from his extended family. I was willing to overlook it to maintain the peace, especially as we see them very infrequently.
But then my husband told me his perspective, and it chilled me to my bones. There was no question on his part. When discussing it, he simply said:
As a leftist, I'm on board with this sentiment. But as an ex-right-winger, I know this would exclude me from my current community. We should allow space for growth and reconciliation, but if you still support Trump and the Republicans at this point, fuck you.
I agree, but if you voted for him the last election it becomes harder for me. The first one, ya you wanted to stick it to status quo. I get it, not support it. Hillary did suck. The second time it is hard but at least Biden one. But after all the shit, lies, rape, epstein, COVID, fraud, impeachments, obvious corruption....and still support him. That's tough. It is like a Nazi in 1946. Redemption at that point will be hard earned only.
We should allow space for growth and reconciliation
Growth. Something anyone that's still a Trump supporter, or in my opinion still were during the 2024 election, are incapable of. He was already a convicted felon and adjudicated rapist during the 2024 election. Anyone that voted for him in that election is a trashcan garbage piece of trash.
Reconciliation. Something anyone still supporting him is in no way interested in.
You can't reach people that don't want to be reached. And at this point they don't deserve the effort.
Those numbers were still that high even well into the 1950s. Even after Germany had been invaded, conquered, and literally divided in two, even after millions of German deaths. A good portion of the German population never gave up on Hitler.
That's around when I started cutting people out who couldn't see reason. Haven't seen some people for a decade. They thought it was politics, I pointed out they wouldnt leave their daughter alone with him, maybe not vote for a shitty human being rapist? Cut a lot of ties unfortunately. They thought he was going to save the world LMAO.
Found the last message I sent last person I cut from my life. Can't find one from 2016 atm.
I'm unblocking your number to send this final message.
I don't associate with Trump supporters, FULL STOP. You're free to believe what you want, I'm free to walk away. I set this boundary in 2018 and began enforcing it in 2021 after the Jan 6th Insurrection. I want absolutely nothing to do with this administration.
We started talking about car repair because you seemed like a normal, everyday guy. Learning that you're a proud Trump supporter sucks because I did enjoy helping and hanging out with you. But your views are the completely opposite of mine if you think America is being "saved" by Trump. Your idea of "saving" is very strange.
Trump is a 34x convicted felon (for fraud no less), convicted rapist, accused by dozens of women of sexual assault, who raped his previous wife, hung out with pedophile Epstein (why aren't the Epstein files released? What is Bondi hiding?) regularly on the Lolita Express, talks about wanting to fuck his daughter, selling Trump meme coins, peddling products out of the Oval Office, Tesla commercials on the White House lawn, selling "gold card" citizenships for $50k (you can come to America as an immigrant, as long as you have/bring money), dodged the draft yet talks trash about armed services and veterans, defends the nazi hate group the proud boys, calls voters "stupid", threatening to take away citizenships of anyone he doesn't like or criticizes the government (literally what the nazis did, revoke the citizenship of Germans who opposed them)… I could go on, but it's wasted energy.
Logic and reasoning didn't get you into your current beliefs, login and reason won't get you out.
Every accusation by a republican is a confession.
People who look up to Trump or think their ideals are the same, are NOT people I want to be around. This isn't a political stance, we can debate all day on whether students should get free food at school, or that justice doesn’t exist in the eyes of the law, only punishment, etc. This is a moral issue. I will not be part of this fascist regime that American has become with all these concentration camps and deportations for people coming here for a better life, fighting with our neighbors over tariffs. Everyday it's a new stack of lies and distractions from the previous day, inundated with bullshit so you can't even respond before 27 new issues are hitting headlines.
I will not provide links, if you want to check it, you can google. Unless you discover it on your own, you won't check my links so it's a waste of my time. I've been through this, you aren't the first person to be removed from my life over Trump support and won't be the last.
This is a line I draw. Maybe one day you'll see that this is a hate cult, it's all part of the grift to help the millionaire an billionaire class, but I won't be around to care.
This was excellent. Sorry your friend was an idiot. There is the "bet he would be upset if he could read" joke somewhere but I am so tired of that being true.
"Hell no," is a weird response. Just because you should have done something in the past doesn't mean you can't start now. It should be normalized every year.
the silver lining of being a very queer trans person is no one who voted for him wants to hang out with me anyway, so i dont end up running into them in my social circles. they might want to fuck me though, which is weird dichotomy...
If it helps, a lot of them would also kill you on the spot were it came to light they were having sex with you. Then use the gay panic defense in court.
Stay safe please!
Electing a useful stooge to usher in a new age of American fascism is probably something this nation will never fully be able to come to terms with, and may not survive. It’s incredibly disappointing and disheartening that we have to depend on the shock value of outrageous sex crimes just to get the attention of voters.
In addition to the normalization of rape culture, here are some other horrible things that are already happening, and continue to get worse as we continue down this path:
Techno-fascist police state
Concentration camps
Domestic military operations
Open kleptocracy
Federalized “elections”
Illegal and continuous wars at executive whim
Out-of-control, self-sustaining, irreversible global climate change
Increased risk of nuclear conflict
I think I prefer, “You enthusiastically voted for an obviously fascist lunatic.” But hey, whatever gets butts in the booths while we still can.
My friends group removed any Trump voters in our orbit, I removed all Trump voters from my social media, and I don't speak to family members that voted for him anymore.
Australian here who was 100% convinced that Trump ran as a joke to get Hillary elected in 2016.
Now here knowing that Trump is an insane old man who should be in a retirement home and not running a country.
But I don't care for the fact that most of American politicians are supporting the terrorist state of Israel.
Trump is an insane old man but Israel is horrific.
Phone bombs, burning children alive, pumping US citizens tax dollars (that was given to them) into lazy American politicians.
You were kinda correct. Trump becoming the big Republican nominee was part of the Pied Piper strategy of the establishment Democrat party. The Hillary Clinton campaign intentionally uplifted radical conservative candidates in an effort to make winning elections easier. The logic was if the Conservative party looks crazy, the Democratic party can run on simply pointing out that craziness without needing to actually have specific policies or positions. The establishment Democrats loved the idea of doing less work, so they eagerly adopted the strategy and focused on crushing their own left flank candidate Bernie Sanders.
The Clinton campaign and the DNC had done a bunch of oppositional research on Donald Trump in preparation, but chose to sit on it, not wanting to tank Trump's chances of becoming the nominee. They focused instead on Jeb Bush and Marco Rubio.
This is why the US has a bunch of feckless Democrats who never seem to run for anything, only against Republicans. They keep running this same, "vote for me or you'll get the crazy man" strategy, even though they keep losing with it.
Seriously up until I got the message that Trump had become president and Hillary had lost I was 100% convinced he was running as a joke and doing everything he could to help Hillary.
The next time he became president I am 150% convinced that Elon musk rigged the election.
I never liked Hillary Clinton but Kamala Harris is brilliant.
I'm not an American, neither is Elon and I have hated Elon Musk since back when he was a beloved left wing hero..
I hated Elon Musk from the moment I saw him and I'll hate him until the day I die.
I hate lots of others, Disney, Amazon, Adobe, Microsoft CEOs.
Just don't get me started on how much I think I should be the emperor of earth.
Fair enough, I don't want to start anything here.
I'm Australian I only know about all of Hillary Clintons crimes.
Kamala seems like a highly intelligent woman who just wanted the best for your country, as far as I can tell she would have made your lives better.
But Elon hacked the election and Trump won..
Now instead of democratic fake socialism you have people in the streets shooting brown people..
I'm 100% a centrist.. But I mean that I think morons crying about the little mermaid being black are just as useless as people crying about over-sexualized big breasted women in video games.
Both sides are equally wrong and pointless, just don't buy the product and move on with your lives.
Being a centrist I'm 100% against Nazis (and here's why I got banned on Reddit).. Nazis only exist to be target practice.. What I'm saying is you Americans should be following in our grandparents/great grandparents footsteps and executing Nazis where they stand.
Israel Army are also Nazis and deserves the same treatment(There's your centrism (͡•_ ͡• ) )
Same with “I don’t vote” centrists who complain about Trans people in sports but don’t say a peep about ICE, DOGE, and everything else. They can go right to hell.
Not gonna change anything. Americans are REAL, REAL stupid and REAL, REAL bigoted. That's not changing when he's dead. Volume might turn down a bit, but the stupid train is still on the stupid tracks going to Stupidville.
I mean you are basically correct that there are people who simply don't/won't vote one way or the other. For context I think it's worth pointing out US participation in the 2024 election in terms of percentages was consistent or better than the participation most countries get in their elections, it's not just a US issue. As for why people don't, I don't really have an answer there. Some people just can't be fucked. Some people's material conditions are bad enough with multiple jobs and responsibilities they don't have the time of energy to devote to it. Some people are totally oblivious that it's happening.
A darkly amusing anecdote is that one of the most searched terms on election day was "is Biden running" or something like that if that gives you any context how disengaged some people are.
That said, there are an increasing number of people in the US who don't vote because no one on the ballot comes even close to representing them or their interests. Not to say that they are both equally bad or equally distant from what they would prefer to vote for, but as Democrats move demonstrably more to the right with each passing election, there has to be a line somewhere at which point they are so far from your interests that they don't get to just count on you to vote blue no matter who anymore. For many people, that line was Democrats enthusiastic support of genocide.
To further the frustrations, it was made abundantly clear through polls and campaign strategists that support for Israel was an unpopular stance among democratic voters, but Kamala gambled on trump being scary enough she could ignore those voters. Worked out real well for her /s
They said "contributed". There's also third party voters.
I don't buy that you should just vote for the lesser of two evils. Kamala was a shit candidate that I doubt she was ever expected to win. She was such a shit candidate she actually solidified my view that the two parties are colluding to serve corporate/Israeli interests and have the working class point fingers at one another.
Whenever I see an extremely pro party (left or right) comment online I figured there's an 80% chance that it's a propaganda bot and a 20% chance that its an idiot cause in real life everyone I talk to is disillusioned with the two major parties.
Left vs right is a distraction to keep the conversation away from the haves vs the have nots. Because if the haves and the have nots vote against each other than the numbers are a land slide.
I don’t buy that you should just vote for the lesser of two evils.
And that mentality is exactly why a felon rapist pedo dumbfuck fascist is the most powerful human being on the planet and absolutely fucking everything up.
Welcome to adulthood, where the name of the game is making rough but intelligent choices to minimize damage.
Hey bud, the Dems are pedos too. They're the same people. That's why none of them ever get held accountable. The rest of the class has it's pencils down and they're waiting for you.
Yo mods, can we get an auto ban for any losers that come up in here playing the both sides card? It's 2026. Shit's pathetic. I have to instantly assume anyone doing it is a moron, a bot, or a Russian.
Harris probably would have lost in any case, but in retrospect I wonder if she would have had a better chance if, of course, Biden dropped out sooner; and instead of the lame, "they're so weird!" angle, if she had leveraged her time in criminal justice to press hard on the fact that Trump is a fucking criminal. Like seriously, criminal vs prosecutor. The narrative could have written itself.
Biden should have never run in the first place, sticking to his word to only take on one term. Proper DNC primary should have occurred, and the Dems would have gotten the strongest possible candidate regardless of who it ended up being.
Disagree with you on one point though: The “they’re weird” line of attack worked, it undercut anything that the Trump/Vance team could say or do. The problem was that line of attack was dropped for being too vulgar/uncouth - their political advisors instead pushed for a unity-style centrist campaign message, hence bringing on Liz Cheney of all people.
How else would the DNC justify not having the much exalted primary? You know, the time that blue maga says is the only appropriate time interact with the voting system beyond "vote blue no matter who".
A lot of people don't like cops. And I don't believe her time as AG was spotless enough to pin up against a man who had already (incomprehensibly) overcome the fact that he was found liable for sexual assault by his first term.
The "weird" thing was something that came up because of Walz genuine reaction about some fuckwit being weird.
And it was fucking working.
Then the Republicans got all whiney and saying the Democrats were being mean mud slingers for calling them weird when they were acting weird. And the campaign team decided that they were going to ease off one of the few levers that was actually working and exposing the lies and propaganda for what it was.
That said, your point on leveraging Harris's strengths and past would have been great too.
In my personal experience I find women are more willing to do this than straight men. Just putting that out there, and I wonder if anyone else feels the same
There are times I can't tell them that, they're clients where I work, etc, but I will not talk to them. Once they make a comment supporting this trash presidency, small talk stops, I get the job done and dip. Nothing extra, bare minimum. May not even say hi to you when I'm at your office.
Km glad I did find a lot of really cool clients i can commiserate together with.
Otherwise, fuck em all. You voted for a terrible terrible piece of shit that you would not even leave your daughter or wife with. You're a shit person who does not deserve to share the air I breathe.
I'm not but I would! I want to go to LA again, my aunt lives in Venice Beach so I should probably hit her up. I did a meetup for the world cup and met some really cool people! Unfortunately in your 30s you have to start working for friends, they no longer fall into your lap
I'd rather make diverse friends than make a friend with somebody that openly supports Trump and his ilk.
Is it weird that I, a cis & straight presenting, white man, make friends with people outside my demographics? I mean, I do make friends within my demographics, but they are absolutely not Trump supporters.
For me it's 2024. During the 2024 election he was already a convicted felon and adjudicated rapist with one massively failed presidency under his belt.
I thought his supporters were dumb as rocks before that, but from that point on I considered them traitors to the United States of America and enemies to everything it stands for.
He was a known racist, conman, and grifter at that point. And the Access Hollywood tape came out before the election. Folks were seemingly fine with all of that in 2016.
Not sorry. I have no pity, sympathy or compassion for them. I believe we need unity but some things are unforgivable. Especially if one of my sons is drafted to fight in these forever wars. They would have directly put my child and countless others in danger. Unforgivable.
Honestly I'll cut them out and won't even explain why. I haven't spoken to my extremely racist cousin in years. Every now and then he tries to contact me, but I don't say anything. There's a small part of me that wants to believe he could change, but then I remember he named his doberman the n word and yelled at it constantly.
Knowing this guy my whole life he was like cartoonishly racist. Like anything I describe he did will get people saying I'm making it up or exaggerating.
We were unaware of critical information at the time. Information that was clearly suppressed. Do however note that we kicked the guy to curb IMMEDIATELY upon finding out, so can we call that an "oopsie?" please.
The man was nothing but red flags, from the Reddit history and abuse allegations to the literal totenkopf tattoo. You were still supporting a nazi abuser before you found out about the rape.
I was willing to accept that he had changed. I mean in hindsight, and now knowing what we do, clearly that was less than true. BUT AGAIN WE DUMPED HIM so bullet dodged.
Hunter Biden. Guy fucked up A LOT and owned up to it. People love that. It shows that he's real. He's had life experience, and not all of it gleaming. Platner was the same way (as far as we knew at the time). Angels are like unicorns in this day and age, sir, especially when a large percentage of the young male population had some hand in the war on terror. It did last 20 YEARS after all. Are we to disenfranchise ALL of them just because they had commanding officers that put them in places and told them to do things that were unsavory? Are we to condemn out right the follies of misplaced patriotism shown by impressionable boys in perpetuity, even as they evolve into men? This was the question Mainers had to ask themselves. There's an old saying about appearances and paying dues: People are alot like pencils. It's easy to look sharp when you haven't done any work. THAT was the narrative Platner was purporting. Did we get had? Yes, and we'll have to live with that, but at least we are learning from the error, which is more than we can say about Trump supporters. My point was to not lump us in with them. We are NOT the same.
How long did he wait to cover it up? I would have been far more willing to let that slide if he had covered it up years ago. As soon as he knew what it was he should've been at the tattoo parlor getting it blacked out. Not waiting until it gets discovered in a run for Senate.
he did actually. Whether or not you believe that he was unaware of what it was in another question however. But as soon as it was pointed out he got it covered.
As I stated, the reporting leading up to this was questionable at best, but it didn't come out as that until the Rape allegations cropped up and people started to dig a bit deeper. I also blame the consultants who clearly went "lol, whatevs! Tee Hee!" (no like seriously they actually did that when confronted) about the vetting process.
At the end of the day we here in maine were laser focused on ousting Susan Collins and Janet Mills was just not the sauce to get it done. Mills would have been trading a middling republican shill for a middling DNC shill, and excuse us for seeing the writing on the wall with that one. We were after a "dependable" progressive vote and (Again "AT THE TIME") it seemed that Platner had the kind of punch required to do it. THAT'S why so many were willing to look the other way about his past, NOT because we were unconcerned about it. This was a "By any means Necessary" MISSION. Collins HAS to go, Not just swapping an R for D, but actually revocating the entire concept of what Collins stood for. TBF, a guy that was broken by his time in the military was an attractive option because it would drop that kind of turd right on the DC suits lap so they could see whole cloth what these frivolous wars on terror had done to these types of men.
But then the Sexual Assault allegations became credible and and pretty much every body dropped him IMMEDIATELY. What I find particularly frustrating is that on the one hand I get "Told you so's" and "Fake Lib" comment from you lot and then I also get flack from others folks who are still cheesed he dropped out because they think I'm falling for republican Psy-Op and he still has some path to win if he'd have just stayed in. So NO, I'm not the worst of the supporters. I'm with Troy Jackson now thankyouverymuch. Planter needs to see the inside of a jail cell if you ask me.
Can we all normalize not giving Ukraine and Taiwan money even if dems win in 2026?
I think there should be an understanding about borrowing 2 trillion dollars yearly being a bad thing and not sustainable
Can we all normalize not giving Israel money even if dems win in 2026?
I think there should be an understanding about borrowing 2 trillion dollars yearly being a bad thing and not sustainable
Nah. I like it when we give pocket change to a struggling democracy so they can fight our enemy for us and prevent them from expanding their borders and increasing their influence and power.
Not an american so I'm not following the whole childrapingfest so closely. But I don't think a person who is uninformed and has their head filled with propaganda is a pedo themselves. My country voted perfectly againts it's best in the last election, we're a full on MAGA fanboy land just because the two MAGA parties (one is "conservative" and other is racist that gets funded by Russia) had a very effective fear-mongering campaigns in the national news. Are these voters all idiots that can't be helped and should be excluded? No, they just trusted the news they consumed.
I'm also not American, but that doesn't mean there aren't trump fans here too, unfortunately.
But I don't think a person who is uninformed and has their head filled with propaganda is a pedo themselves.
I didn't say that. I said they supported one. And I don't want to spend my free time, which is meant to be enjoyed, being around people who support child rapists.
Are these voters all idiots that can't be helped and should be excluded?
No, but the ones who continue to support a child rapist are.
The thing is, my stance has not changed. I have never wanted to hang out with people who support child rapists. What has changed is that some people now suddenly start to support a child rapist. They're doing this, not me.
Fair, fair. As long as the voter/supporter knows and believes the allegations. The whole Epstein shit is such a meme-y mess that there is no sure info of anything. I could personally send in a letter of how I know my neighbor, who has never been outside of this country, eat a baby there and it would go into the evidence pile. There is a reason why they aren't publishing everything lol.
Nah. That is the case. Epstein ain't nothing but a distraction for the chronically online activists. "Venezuela - WAT ABUUT MAH PAPURS!? Iran - MUH PAPURS!!!" It's just a meme, always was. There won't ever be any justice. But it will keep the sheep amused long.
Not an american so I’m not following the whole childrapingfest so closely.
Maybe you should start before commenting on American politics. It's kind of integral to what's going on right now.
But I don’t think a person who is uninformed and has their head filled with propaganda is a pedo themselves.
I don't draw much of a distinction between actual card carrying members of the Nazi party and all the German citizens that just kind of shrugged cuz they generally benefited from it until they didn't.
Are these voters all idiots that can’t be helped and should be excluded?
After a decade of this nonsense and extreme damage to our nation and democracy? Yes.
It's not like we're at the beginning of something here. It's been TEN FUCKING YEARS. Anyone still onboard with Trump/Republicans has actively refused to accept facts and continue harming our nation. They are TRAAAAAAAASH.
Call me weird if you like but I think there is already a hard line between normal people and those who would vote for a rapist… are you suggesting they come together and be friends? Do you not think the normalisation of something so abhorrent is why American society has already been abused beyond recognition? Fascinating.
Not saying anything about being friends, but if you guys can't find a way to behave, work and exist together after Trump, there is really no future for you. Only Trump2 will win.
You can’t hang with us means we can’t be friends. Doesn’t mean they wouldn’t work together at their job or in their community. I do think they should be ostracised though which seems the point of this whole post.
Well, the other option is to keep attempting to hold hands and sing Kumbaya with fascist traitor fucks who view facts as anathema and who are currently succeeding in fucking up our economy, stripping human rights, and destroying our international relations.
There's only one way I like fascists, and it isn't in a hand holding kind of way.
Oh that's just bullshit. You have no idea who we voted for. :-) But I understand that you did and you want to spread the guilt. I understand, but it's kinda fucked up to do that.
You're not understanding me. I'm saying if you've voted for more than a handful of politicians in your life, regardless of patty, there is an almost 100% chance you have voted for at least one rapist. Positions of power attract assholes, and even good people are often corrupted once they enter that world. There's no guilt to me. I've been voting for 35 years, I imagine I have voted for quite a few rapists. Never knowingly. I'm just being realistic.
I have filled out at least a thousand of those little bubbles in my life of voting. To think not one of those power hungry dbags ever raped anyone is wild. Things like the Epstein files show what sex culture is like at the top. I just don't have my head up my ass.
So they running COINTELPRO games and you poop your pants. That doesn't sound very communist. 🤔 I say wag your tail and tell the truth. Yeah don't tread on me but wag your tail. They hurting to... they dumb and on the same boat as we.
I think by cutting off contact/dialogue, you're really hurting someone who could benefit from your better views. You shouldn't ever remove your ability to provide charity by simple thought exchange.
Yup, I think the lines have been drawn, and people who confidently support trump do it cause they KNOW he's a rapist, criminal, fascist. I don't think there is any convincing anyone to switch sides now.
Of course I do! But even a dollar to someone with absolutely nothing going on can be really impactful. I'd know, I'm at the worst stage of my life after investing my blood, heart, sweat, soul into a world-changing tool that I don't know how to market. I don't even know why I'm here. But I'm enjoying the experience.
I think there is a fraction of Trump supporters who would change their views in response to people cutting them out of their life and who have told them that is the reason. Sort of like how all politics is local.
If enough were peeled off like that, they wouldn’t seek refuge in the consensus of the majority.
Americans who have kept in touch with their Trump-supporting relatives generally don’t put NEARLY the amount of pressure on them that they should.
So these ideas at Thanksgiving become legitimised to some extent. Especially if someone at the table says something like “we should avoid talking politics”, or “regardless of our political views, we need to get along”.
But the mistake is that these are not political differences. They are differences of ethics and basic decency.
I agree that there is a fraction that fall in that camp. I think the human emotional spectrum is very wide, and it's important to approach sensitive subjects with a more profound sense of humility than the person you're trying to win over-- staying true to yourself throughout the process. I believe the boltzmann curve on this would have the same fraction that falls into that camp (who would change their views in response to tie cuts) see an equal but opposite reflection on the other side of the curve where they'd equally cut you off as unworthy of discussing anything with simply because you cut ties over politics. So it really goes both ways, in my view of human emotions and disagreement discussion.
Just like the Clintons and Hunter Biden. Epstein was a cop, too. Mossad, technically. That's why he's still alive.
Proud boys are feds, too. It's like we live in a police state or something...where the state is police...and thus we're lied to for grander investigative purposes. Cuz who do you think of the millionaires club around the world offered Trump a big, stinky bribe or offer or deal of some sort? The FBI knows who offered to rent out their children now because of this thing called "strategy."
We need to build bridges not burn them. Ostracizing Trump voters doesn't fix the divide in this country.
Good people can make mistakes. Good people can be mislead. Good people can believe in lies. We need to build community with these people. They are our neighbors, they are our family members, they are our friends.
Capitalism wants us all alienated. It wants us to abandon our tribe. And it wants us to go forward alone. We have to stop kicking people out of the tent. We need to welcome them.
We have all been lied to by our politicians. We have all been mislead about what they believe and what they stand for. You need to believe that people can come back from mistakes. Stop ostracizing people for who they voted for. Instead find a way to figure out how to build together.
Edit: GUYS WE ALL LEFT MAINSTREAM SOCIAL MEDIA BECAUSE IT'S A HYPERPARTISAN ECHO CHAMBER THAT ROTS YOUR BRAIN. WE ARE ALL ON THE FEDIVERSE BECAUSE WE MADE A CONSCIOUS DECISION TO DO BETTER FOR OUR BRAINS. I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY IT IS SO HARD TO SEE THAT MOST PEOPLE'S BRAINS HAVE BEEN TURNED TO MUSH BY SOCIAL MEDIA. ITS LITERALLY THE ONLY THING THE ENTIRE FEDIVERSE USER BASE AGREES ON. I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY IT'S HARD TO BE FORGIVING TO PEOPLE WHOSE BRAINS HAVE BEEN TURNED TO MUSH AND FORGIVE THEM FOR THEY LACK A HISTORICAL SENSE OF THE MOMENT, THEY LACK ANY SENSE OF SCIENTIFIC UNDERSTANDING, NOR DO THEY HAVE A SENSE OF LOGIC.
We need to forgive people who get trapped in propaganda echo chambers. It's not something intrinsic to them. We have all literally been there.
I don't think it matters in this information environment.
People aren't 'lost,' they've been consumed by their tech and feeds and influencers.
I'm not saying we shouldn't reach out, but... what's the point? If people spend literal hours every day getting drip fed hyper-personalized Trump fandom on their phones and such, being a sympathetic friend can't compete with that. What on Earth are we supposed to do about it?
Burn Facebook down, I guess?
But most of the world has not and never will connect that to the world's problems.
And honestly, Trump is just a symptom that broken system. He was there at the right time to take advantage of it, and for the system to use him. Even if his whole movement dies tomorrow, I don't think it would change a thing; the actual cause wouldn't go away.
I assert this about science literacy, too. Like with climate change.
Scientists putting out little letters and press releases is like blowing into a hurricane, these days. It's pointless noise. And they can't really "stoop" to disinfo peddlers' level, either, because unscientific messages win the engagement war, and they don't peddle controversy for a living.
Kindness alone is not going to change people. They need social pain, a stab in the heart, where its most important to them.
"I don't want you in my life when you're like this" (like OP's post) is Breaking Addiction 101. It works. And even then that's not always enough, but it's a powerful motivation.
So I guess what I'm saying is... you can do both. You can reach out a hand with sympathy, like you suggest, but it does not preclude the approach of OP's quote.
I'd argue its best to do both.
Of course, an issue with this is that it doesn't seem like addiction to most. The notion does sound kinda ridiculous to the average person. I think they're aware they use their smartphone to much, but not how perfectly manipulative it is.
Another is there's not always someone in people's lives to apply that kind of pressure.
Nah. Trying to rehabilitate Nazis leads to Nazis taking over critical institutions and going underground to pop back up a couple of generations later. Unlike our grandparents, we don't need to leave a bigger less for our grandkids to clean up.
And when most of us were "trapped in a propaganda echo chamber" the idea of cheering on masked secret police disappearing our neighbors for their skin tone or language would still have been a non-starter. Yes, they were made to believe absurdities in order to make them commit atrocities. That doesn't excuse the atrocities, nor does it make the absurdities anything other than what they wanted to believe to begin with.
The primary reason we're here, is because we didn't properly deal with the Confederacy after the Civil War, especially after the assassination of Lincoln. That open wound festered for the next century and a half, and now we have to deal with it once and for all.
Traitors and Pedophiles cannot be compromised with. If they have committed crimes, they get the harshest punishment, and if they haven't, they should be shunned by moral society. They tried to destroy this country once, and they will try again. They deserve no forgiveness or mercy, just relentless bullying, so their children grow up wanting desperately to escape from that life.
And importantly: their kids should not inherit stolen wealth. It's not too late for slave reparations from wealthy white families who benefited from slavery. Elon counts too, close enough.
Wrong. We're a DECADE into this fucking nonsense. Mountains of evidence have been provided to Trump supporters to try to get them to see reason. They've chosen to ignore all facts, to the detriment of our nation, and support felon rapists who work non-stop to divide Americans.
Lol. Welcome back from the coma you've been in. That ship sailed quite some time ago, and it wasn't our side of the aisle that sailed away.
You cannot build bridges with low IQ bigoted traitors who willingly and gleefully vote for felon rapists who already failed once at the presidency and who openly call half the country America's enemy.
People who continue to support not just Donald Trump but the current Republican party are wholesale traitors to our nation, and the sooner you understand that, the less delusional you'll be.
Good people can make mistakes.
These aren't good people. They voted for a convicted felon and adjudicated rapist who has spent the last decade attempting to divide America. Too much time has passed, too many events have unfolded, and too much information has come out for them to still be considered good people for the choices they are making.
They are our neighbors, they are our family members, they are our friends.
That doesn't give them infinite passes for being deplorable people. If you coddle a child that keeps misbehaving, they will keep doing it forever. Now, these aren't children (technically) who can be put on timeout to learn a lesson. The lesson is they lose their friends and family.
We have all been lied to by our politicians.
Sure have. But we don't all resort to voting for felon rapist traitors and parties who strip women of rights and target people with brown skin as a reaction to politicians lying to us. Trump/Republican supporters didn't just vote for him/them because they were tricked. They did it because they wanted brown people out, or women to not have control over their own bodies, or a Christian oriented nation, or simply to piss of the libs.
Stop ostracizing people for who they voted for.
WHY?!?!?!?!?!?
We judge people based on their actions, as they should be. VOTING IS AN ACTION WITH REAL WORLD CONSEQUENCES.
We need to forgive people who get trapped in propaganda echo chambers.
Not anymore we don't. It's been over a decade and they've been presented with MOUNTAINS of evidence that they've chosen to ignore to the detriment of our nation. That makes them our enemy now.
Sorry anything short of death to Trump voters is unacceptable, and in fact makes you worse than them because you know better. (/s since i can't make my reply ridiculous enough for it to be obvious satire.)
They’re all collectively responsible for who they elect.
Lol, no. Nether I nor my state voted for it. Do not blame me for the actions of people further away than your entire country from me like I have any control over what happens.
The country is collectively responsible for who it elects.
This is basic democracy. The problem is none of them can accept responsibility. That just comes in different forms, whether it’s non voting when you can, voting for arseholes or blaming others when it goes wrong.
So they lash out at the rest of us who understand that and vote accordingly at home. If that’s not enough they fund their political PACs to insert into our politics at home. Which is our fault too I guess. Like I had someone try and tell me earlier it’s our fault because we won’t sanction the US.
The country is collectively responsible for who it elects.
Wrong.
This is basic democracy
The US operates under a representative democracy, specifically a system with an electoral college. This results in multiple levels of abstraction from your normal voter.
The problem is none of them can accept responsibility.
You're just butthurt people who didn't vote for this aren't accepting your blame.
Cry harder about your grievences with Americans, you're a pretty big fucking idiot
Nope, every democratic country is responsible for the leaders they elect. The US wants to be a special case here and expects others to accept it as one, but it’s responsible for who it elects
The US operates
Yes, I know. It approved Biden and Clinton, but go on, roll out the excuses for that one too
you’re just butthurt
Fucking hardly. I’m well aware Americans won’t accept responsibility they can palm off elsewhere.
cry harder
I think the crying being done by Americans, not anyone outside.
We knew this would happen though, after they elected him again. Excuses everywhere, absolving each individual. Excuses everywhere, anger when the mirrors held up, rage when they’re told to stay home.
The problem with having a casual and fair discussion about candidate policy is that you're doing it with a backdrop of people being murdered in the streets by fascist death squads and your lack of urgency just drives home for these people that it can't be that big of a deal if you're still having a civil discussion about it.
There is no way to be civil and fair with people who have decided this kind of activity is acceptable - they do not have consciences to appeal to. They are the people who only understand fear of repercussions and the exercise of force as behavioral modifiers.
If they're unhappy NOW, after the last decade of fucking nonsense, then they can GOOOO FUUUUUCK THEMSELVES.
Us holding hands and singing Kumbaya with them isn't changing their minds. The fact that their shit decisions are finally affecting them is what's changing their minds.
If the majority of people that voted for Trump are unhappy with their pick, it should be easy to swing their votes
Lol. You don't have much experience with conservatives, do you? Let me make it easy.
Party > Country
Every. Fucking. Time. Them being unhappy with Trump in no way, shape, or form means they're going to swing their votes to a different party. They would NEVER. Under pain of death. Under pain of their children dying. Nothing.
It's always the same with conservatives. Support a piece of shit scum loser until they legally can't vote for him anymore, then pretend they never knew the guy and proceed to vote for the next piece of shit scum loser with an "R" next to their name.
Ostracising people for who they voted for pushes them further and isolates them to echo chambers
I'd say they were already neck deep in an echo chamber to vote for a convicted felon and adjudicated rapist with one failed presidency under his belt who openly states that their family members who are liberals are a danger to our nation.
When you put them on the defensive the natural response is to clamp down on their views harder
That ship sailed a decade ago and MOUNTAINS of facts haven't swayed them back to reality.
Your mindset is one you should have had a decade ago. A lot has happened since then. These people are not still redeemable and no energy should be wasted on trying to redeem them, only beating them into submission.
I don't fully agree. Of course it's problematic that people voted for trump, that's out of the question. But the question should rather be: What circumstances led to someone voting for trump?
People are actually struggling a lot and voting for the person advertising a solution can seem very attractive if you desperately need an improvement.
In the end, voting doesn't fix the underlying system and can only achieve marginal improvements. All Parties are only managing the same capitalistic state and not changing the whole system.
Ostracizing people based on their vote is not a proper solution and will not lead to people voting for someone different. People are more likely to reinforce their existing beliefs if met with heavy resistance.
Also the party war is distracting from the actual class war.
Maybe I took the meme too seriously but I think it's important to consider.
No War But Class War!
Edit: Maybe don't hang out with them, but analyze the reasons that made them vote in the way they did. People who voted for trump probably have the same problems with capitalism that you do but their anger is misguided by populism and capitalist propaganda.
"Voting for the person advertising a solution" ah yes, the dude who said "Concepts of a plan" And word-salad's his way through everything because his brain is as smooth and squishy as half-melted butter. What an excellent solution man he is.
I'm not "ostracizing people based on their votes" I'm ostracizing people who actively want to strip me of my rights, and quite possibly want to physically harm me fuck off with this "We should all be friends, it's the only way to convince them" shit. I'd have better luck convincing a hungry polar bear I'm not food.
We all knew who trump was going into 2024. I can forgive 2016, in truth, I didn't expect him to be as bad as he was. I can barely forgive people who voted in 2020, because by then we all knew he was a fucking idiot and people should have known better. But 2024? Nah. Fuck them. We all saw how dumb he was, we all saw january 6th, we all knew about project 2025, anything less is willful ignorance.
It's not just a "party war," it's a morality war. If you voted for trump in 2024, you have zero morals, empathy, and I genuinely believe you lack the capability to participate in society in any meaningful way.
We all knew who trump was going into 2024. I can forgive 2016, in truth, I didn't expect him to be as bad as he was.
I, for one, expected 2024 Trump in 2016. At this point, I'm still paralyzed by shock that we managed to get a second chance to save the country in 2020 and completely squandered it.
I guess my perspective is slightly different as I was fresh out of high-school, looking at my first presidential election, almost no interest in politics, and my only real opinion of trump in 2016 was "dude is disgusting and a moron."
I ended up voting third party that election, something about if third party votes were above 5% they would earn more funding or something? I was in a very blue state at the time, so I knew trump wasnt going to win my state, and I figured maybe that 5% was doable that election.
I’m not “ostracizing people based on their votes” I’m ostracizing people who actively want to strip me of my rights, and quite possibly want to physically harm me
The democratic party supports the war on drugs alongside the republican party. I have lost people close to me because of tainted black market drugs of a unknown potency.
Reminder that no 3rd party will control our federal goverment anytime in the remote future and probably not within your lifetime and that the Democrat party, while not perfect, is UNFATHOMABLY better at governing our nation and respecting our rights than the Republican party.
I don't think you are aware of how desperate a lot of people were. I know it's easy to villainize people who want to take away the rights of people you love and yourself. My friends and me would be affected by his policy too if we lived in the US. But the people who voted for trump are still human and not evil in person. They have their own reasoning and problems, they were just convinced of the wrong target. They probably have a lot of the same problems with capitalism that a lot of people have. They just aren't targeting capitalism but some minority or foreigners in general.
I actually live in the US. I have family that voted for him. They're not desperate in the way you think they are. They're all some combination of dumb, ignorant, or the worst of the bunch, the actually evil.
I tried to befriend them, to convince them that the enemy is not what they thought it was. I spent ten fucking years doing that shit. But in the end:
My cousin is dumb, he votes for trump because he thinks trump is an uneducated everyman like himself "He speaks the way I speak."
My aunt is evil, she votes for trump because he makes her stock portfolio look good, damn the consequences "I voted for trump because we all need to vote for our own best interests."
My grandma is ignorant, she doesn't understand the way the world works today, things have changed too much from her generation to really grasp it "I voted for trump because the world is a scary place, and we need his security."
All three are evil in their own way. My grandma never took the time to consider the viewpoint of others, no matter how many times she was given opportunity. My cousin never learned, or trusted in those that knew more than him on a subject. My aunt, the most vile of them all decided that she didn't care enough about her kids and grandchildren, and that the bottom line was all that mattered.
There is no convincing these people. As another commenter said? Fuck em.
One day they will wake up, and realize that actions had consequences, and it's far too late to take it back.
Raised in an evil culture. Christian Nationalism, White Supremacy, prosperity gospel, the Anerican myth of rugged individualism, there are many avenues but the main pressure is the same: they value only themselves or people closely aligned with them and believe personal gain is the most important goal. Or they're the delusional cultists, the true believers that genuinely think they're fighting a war for God in some way.
Raised in an evil culture is how most Republican voters end up being Republican voters. But I'd like to add that being raised in an evil culture is not an excuse for remaining evil as an adult.
Part of adulthood is accepting responsibility for your character and not continuing to blame your faults on your upbringing.
There are many people raised in religious households that grow up to not be religious. And religions are an EXTREMELY entrenched form of cult culture. So it's totally possible to break free of programming.
I just don't want to give conservatives an easy out to blame others. They don't deserve it.
And that's why I think people are able to convinced by discussion. It might take some time and it might be difficult but they are still human at the core. I don't think people like this should get a platform but it is necessary to push against the spread of hatred and the deeply ingrained propaganda. It is difficult but not impossible.
Not worth the effort. Fix their children by supporting public education and fighting the sources of propaganda. Push for laws about what is allowed to be said in the news, punish lying or fraud.
Changing the mind of an adult who is not trying to change is close to impossible. One of the first steps in breaking indoctrination is cutting off from the source and any connected social ties or they'll just get dragged back in. And those social ties make them feel good, they feel validated and important when their community agrees. You can't fight that.
It's been over a decade and they've had mountains of facts dumped on them and it hasn't moved the needle. The only thing that's changing them is if they end up being personally affected by their own actions. And even then, they tend to just default to blaming liberals/democrats for their self-induced problems.
they are still human at the core
And? Plenty of irredeemably evil humans have existing throughout human history.
Democracy requires education / free press, modest prosperity and peace. We don't have those any more. A socialist slogan: fascism is capitalism in decay. Also let the system and institutions rot. We know our election systems are garbage.
If you divide the population into a smarter and a stupider half (however you want to define that) the stupid half will always be easier to manipulate, distract, less able to foresee and understand the consequences of policy and decisions. Is it their fault that we let them be brainwashed with evil ideology and religion?
Advertising / public relations / brainwashing is a technology that significantly advanced. We didn't. Those with money or power can hire the smartest people to make fool of us all.
Hierarchical systems require people to advance and each step filters who advances and who doesn't. Instead of a meritocracy, it leads to selfish people who are solely focused on advancement at the expense of anything else like empathy, loyalty, education, truth etc. If you can't play this game you loose. The larger the hierarchy, the worst scum you end up with at the top. And those at the top set the rules of society.
Democracy is fundamentally incompatible with capitalism. But the vast majority of people still believe in (neo)liberalism and the free market to somehow "as if by invisible hand" guide humanity towards a brighter future. Trump voters are stupid, agreed, but there is a lot of stupidity left for the rest of them.
Exactly, we got trump because he's the president we deserve. I can't count on one the amout of people i see throwing trahs out their window while driving, they dont give a fuck about this country at all, they just pretend to because it helps them make more money. If trump actually brings this country down, they'll just fucking move to another country they own property in and cry about how the democrats ruined america.
You don't even live in the US, whereas most of us here know or are closely related to people who voted for him.
But sure, you probably know better.
I've lived through the conditions that produced MAGA, and I honestly could not care less if they felt "desperate." A lot of us have felt desperate, it doesn't excuse literal fascism.
I'm sure slave owners felt desperate when Lincoln gave the Emancipation Proclamation. That's about how much I care about MAGA voters' claims of "desperation".
By the way, try actually finding out specifically what those people mean and you'll eventually realize that it comes down to ignorance, racism and xenophobia.
They became "desperate" after a black man was elected president twice.
But why do you think they are xenophobic or racist?
Doesn't that stem from nationalist and capitalist propaganda.
The notion that one state is better that the others exists everywhere and reinforces the nationalism very heavily. This is just the basic competitiveness of capitalism, that has its roots everywhere.
All these issues can be attributed to the capitalist nature of the state
It's because Europe and pacific Asia were humbled by the war. They know (culturally through their grandparents) that tyranny is not to be fooled around with. In the US we never got that lesson, in fact the war pulled us out of the Great Depression. So for our grandparents the lesson was war saved the economy and led to the US becoming the richest country in the world.
That's why we're so war hungry culturally as a people, we don't know a war that was actually devastating for us, even WW2 was fought overseas not a single bomb was dropped on the mainland.
So now we have a population of morons who think war is good.
I thinks it's also due to a lot of US exceptionalism propaganda. The US was always depicted as the savior or protector of the world. This has been ongoing for a long time, whicg is why the propaganda is soo deeply engrained in people's minds and it is a lot work to actually get through to people affected by it.
It's similar in Germany and a lot of the western world. Foreign countries are seen as uncivilized and people are only seen as humans if they can provide value to the nation. Propaganda is difficult to work against. Some people are easier to reach though and that shows that it is not impossible to reach people.
Yes but I think the lesson of WW2 shook the German people, like it did the Brits and French. Imagine a colonizer like Germany but didn't really suffer much during WW2. That's the US.
My parents are comfortably retired and voted for Trump purely because Fox News (and possibly right-wing local TV news) brainrot told them to. Not even social media, which they are too computer-illiterate to use! Just TV!
(Well, maybe my dad's church, too. I've never gone so I have no idea what they're telling him. All I know is that him being more religious than my mom correlates with him being more brainwashed...)
Anyway, the point is that they definitely don't have "desperation" as an excuse. Every single "problem" they have is either imaginary or actively being worsened by Trump and the Republican Party.
Hell, if you ask my mom why she didn't vote for the Democrat (any of 'em, take your pick from Kamala Harris to Al Gore) it's always some bullshit about how she didn't like their tone, or something. She probably couldn't name an actual policy position of theirs at gunpoint! She just sits around watching TV news and hates who the TV tells her to hate.
My Southern family are not desperate, they're just the kind of Christian that cares more about abortion than anything else on Earth and are constantly plugged into the right-wing media propaganda.
My Eastern Washington family are not desperate, they're just the special kind of entitled that refuses to accept that their wealth (banking and farming) came off the backs of others.
Tons of people voted for Trump because they're bigots and have let themselves be convinced that their fantasy version of the country is being attacked by whatever group or groups they hate.
Religion is a similar but different issue which is very difficult to discuss about as it is often deeply engrained in people's minds.
Rich people is kinda the opposite of what I was talking about. They often actively profit from trump or are not affected in the slightest. It is not the group we should be focused on convincing as they aren't really workers.
People aren't bigots out of nowhere. They have real worries but their anger is misguided by the ultrawealthy so they don't lose their power.
The voters shouldn't be the enemy. They are mostly victims of propaganda. The system needs this propaganda so few people can continue to profit. This applies to all of the categories above except if your relatives are part of the ultrawealthy.
I don’t think you are aware of how desperate a lot of people were.
Not an excuse. Never will be.
I know it’s easy to villainize people who want to take away the rights of people you love and yourself.
Umm.....yeah.
But the people who voted for trump are still human
Sure are. They are evil humans. And they've proven that through their actions for a decade now. Well, more if you've been paying attention, but the last 10 years are a pretty good example.
They have their own reasoning
Their reasoning is not based in reality. They have been shown this repeatedly and have chosen to disregard.
That is not how we will get past capitalism. We need to pick up people where they are. You don't need to agree but you need to take problems and worries seriously to actually convince someone. Antagonizing only reinforces current opinions.
Maybe not hanging out but at least trying to understand the reasons that led to the vote. I myself don't have friends that voted AFD but I think they have a lot of the same problems that I do. Their anger is just very misguided.
It's possible to both understand the reasons why the US election went the way it did, and hold individuals accountable for their behaviour, including the way they voted.
I have a lot of compassion for people who get so caught up in the right wing propaganda machine that they're willing to vote against their own best interest out of fear. I can't even begin to imagine living in so much terror of some nebulous other that I end up thinking it's okay to round up immigrants, bomb children, and criminalize people's gender identities. It sounds like a horrible way to exist in the world. I am so very angry at the systems that have allowed things to get this bad. That doesn't change the fact that those individuals are still responsible for the harm their actions - and votes - have caused, and people who are willing to throw away basic human decency like that rather than put the work in to examine their own biases are not welcome anywhere near my life.
In other words, causing harm out of misguided anger does not diminish the harm done. So, fuck 'em. It's not my job to play nice in the hopes that they'll have some come-to-Jesus moment.
It’s possible to both understand the reasons why the US election went the way it did, and hold individuals accountable for their behaviour, including the way they voted.
Right? Why are people trying to make excuses for grown ass adults who have been ignoring a tsunami of facts for over a decade in favor of voting against the best interests of others AND themselves?
I'm old enough to have been around watching conservatives/regressives vote against their own best interests for quite some time, but it's gotten a whole lot more gross over the last decade.
I will never view conservatives as good people and I'm glad more people are starting to reach that same conclusion. The masks are off now. We're seeing what they're really about.
That's not what the motto means though. Women's rights and Minority rights are restricted because of capitalism. They have a purpose in the capitalistic world. The class war fights these issues as well. At least in the proper marxist theory.
I know what you are talking about, I hate that too. Actual marxist theory attributes gender and equality to the class issue as well, which is why gender and equality are part of the class war. They should be viewed as one issue and not seperately. There won't be gender equality before there is class equality.
Edit: looked up Chavez. I do agree with his tactics. The owning class has nothing without workers.
I think supporting Platner is a positive sign as it shows that the root cause is still visible.
Edit 2: I was not aware of these two people and their crimes. I only support their movements but not their personal actions. I should've researched them more.
You believe that it's good to look the other way on individual crimes if it benefits the working class?
This is exactly what I mean when I'm sick of hearing that motto being shoved everywhere there's concerns that aren't focused strictly on working class issues.
What circumstances led to someone voting for trump?
Propaganda and bigotry.
And there's no excuse for either. Obviously there's no excuse for bigotry, but even propaganda has no excuse. You gonna believe everything the commercials on TV tell you your entire life? You gonna send that Nigerian prince your entire life savings? Sounds like a you problem if so.
Any adult making an effort to behave responsibly isn't going to fall for propaganda, especially the dogshit stupid propaganda the right cooks up. Especially over the course of a decade as the rest of the world dumps mountains of facts on you to let you know you're falling for propaganda.
voting doesn’t fix the underlying system and can only achieve marginal improvements
Voting can fix the underlying system, marginally, over time. The catch is that the populace can't be stupid and has to vote intelligently over time to allow that to happen. Democracy can't be a well oiled machine if stupid people are gumming up the works.
Ostracizing people based on their vote is not a proper solution
That's entirely dependent on the situation. You gonna go back in time and choose not to ostracize German citizens that supported the Nazi regime? Enough time has passed since Trumpism became a thing and enough events have unfolded and enough facts have come to light NOT to ostracize the people that keep supporting it. This isn't funny meme shit anymore. Our economy is tanking, our rights have been infringed, our international reputation has been tarnished, American citizens have been illegally detained and EXECUTED, etc etc etc.
People are more likely to reinforce their existing beliefs if met with heavy resistance.
Not sure how many conservatives (regressives) you've interacted with. I'm here to assure you that no interaction with them, however nice or mean, is going to change their allegiance. If that was going to happen, it already would have. I've been watching conservatives for decades now and they will not change. I guarantee it. The only situation in which they'll change is if their decisions start SERIOUSLY backfiring and significantly affecting them personally. And even then, they'll resort to blaming liberals/democrats before they acknowledge their own mistakes and change themselves.
Also the party war is distracting from the actual class war.
There's absolutely a class war. But when one party is REPEATEDLY AND OPENLY VIOLATING THE CONSTITUTION in favor of a felon rapist traitor, then the party war is very much a real thing and a real threat.
Look, the Confederacy was a real threat to the United States of America. Now conservatives/regressives are. They must be dealt with and the nice way isn't going to work. Clearly.
I agree with you. Trump and his White House cronies are corrupt, vile and self-serving criminals, rapists and bigots, but the fact they are in powerful office positions is a mere symptom of a wider problem with the American political, educational, media, and economic system.
Vowing to disassociate with anyone who voted for Trump and other rapists might make a good social media post or meme, but it does virtually nothing to resolve underlying issues, in order to prevent rapists from gaining power in the USA to begin with. In my eyes, solidarity is a more powerful tool than trying to find the true Scotsmen.
but it does virtually nothing to resolve underlying issues
The reaching out period is over. For a decade we've tried to get them to see reason. I'm not doing another decade. When someone won't listen to reason, the only tool you have left in your toolbox is to cut them off to see if that's enough of a punishment to get through to them. Being lonely and ostracized can be a catalyst for change.
solidarity is a more powerful tool than trying to find the true Scotsmen
There is no solidarity with those who support felons and rapists in order to harm others and refuse to listen to even their own family and friends. That's just a simple fact.
It's important to take things case by case. There are always going to be unconvincable supporters, you don't have to waste time, mental energy and breath on them, I get that. But I think the fraction of people who voted for a rapist criminal liar because they like rape, crime and lying is small. Bigotry is more popular, yes, but I think that's because blaming minorities is a clear and simple 'solution' to complex issues, and it makes it super easy for the wealth class to pit the bottom 98% against each other. Loneliness and ostracism are what primed many people in the latter half of the 2010s to be exploited by the right-wing online radicalization pipeline.
And beyond just Trump, if you take guilt by association too far and without injecting nuance, you risk letting the biggest bigots win because our prospective allies don't have perfectly squeaky clean records.
::: spoiler sidenote
I've long noticed N. American right-wing groups will bring people on when they agree on one thing regardless of anything else, and kick them out only once they've outlived their usefulness in accomplishing that. N. American left-wing groups I've found kinda the opposite where one point of disagreement will be the first thing that gets talked about, slowing down overall action. Not all bad though, those groups end up more aligned, but smaller and less capable of mass action. I think the situation is improving overall.
:::
316 replies
Rapist, fascist, racist, insurrectionist, pedophile, felon, conman, serial liar... Why sell him short?
All that stuff was well known BEFORE the election. That's why I don't have any respect for those who now claim they "made a mistake".
The leopards weren't supposed to eat THEIR face!
They were perfectly okay with all those things as long as it didn't hurt them. Hell they celebrated most of it.
These same people claiming they made a mistake will absolutely support the next asshole that "speaks to them." They all want a white Christian nation and will support whomever they think will give them that.
I think most of them would even vote for him again given the opportunity.
that guy that said he'd forgive the President if he raped his daughters.. i was like wtf. He should ha e his kids taken off him.
Indeed.
These aren't just dumb people. They are actual traitors to our nation and everything it stands for.
The delusion that this isn't what the US has always stood for. The state is not your friend. This nation is and always has been the enemy of the working class.
Yup. Ignorance isn't an excuse. Especially 10 years of it.
Because you're more likely to convince someone with a single emotionally-charged fact than a bulleted list.
We've tried convincing these people. It doesn't work. They're lost.
Then all is lost! But still a good day to learn a little human nature.
The All Is Lost Moment! But still a good day to learn a little film theory
Yeah. It fucking sucks.
Traitor is the bigger one for me.
He's betrayed everything this country, that office, and our people stand for.
No he didn't. He is the hypercharged image of Corporate America, the future we've been building towards for the last fifty years. Capital made carnal. If it disgusts you, well, it should.
no he didn't he is what the country stands for, I've got mine, fuck you all. It's why billionaires are revered as well.
he still has has 38%-40% support
Trump is literally the personification of American culture.
Nah, people.dont research. None of that was known. They know only what fox news lies about. And anything opposing those views are just evil Democrats smearing him and lying because theres no proof!
That's what the intellectually lazy and liars say, anyway. Because all of that was absolutely known by anyone who paid a modicum of attention to sources that weren't 100% regime aligned.
I'm sorry, I was being the voice of the conservative hicks living in falling down shacks with trump signs all over, not an educated human. I think people mistook my comment to be my actual thoughts 😅
I know these degenerates in real life, you cannot use facts with them. They won't ever believe it if it goes against Dear Leader, to them anything that does is a democrat scam.
These are people who really believe They (democrats/Soros) bussed in immigrants and set out pallets of bricks for riots in Minneapolis. Unrefutably they believe that as fact. 🙄
Cause they didn't see in the four years he already had that he was a piece of shit?
No. They are idiots and only folow fox news, all else is just a smear campaign. These people are plain dumb and there is no fixing them.
Yeah, it's all fake news unless it's faux news
As a leftist, I dislike this sentiment. We should not normalize isolating folks on the far right.
Of course, do what you want with your friend groups. Kick someone out if you don't like hanging with them. But if you can swing it, there are a lot of cases where it can be really good thing to expose conservative folks to leftist worldviews in a friendly setting.
I feel including conservative folks has a much more direct and convincing theory of change than excluding them does.
(Again, it is cool if you don't want to do that.)
I agree with the sentiment and have practiced this for years -- it was pounded into me during my education-- but have not found any balance in it. The evils stay evil and I feel like they thrive on my making room for them. Its very odd that some otherwise sane and caring people can have these parts of their personalities that are completely distinct from the rest of how they think, and it doesn't make any sense to me personally. Usually the biggest hurdle is around Israel support. So we stay friends, but I think they are evil shits and they think I'm a peacenik moron who is naive out of touch with the real world (I think).
I'm not certain, but I think at its core is racism and lack of respect for others, while wishing them well at the same time. So they want to tell themselves they are good people, but hate on certain ethnic groups. Kind of a "I'm going to shoot you in the head but I feel bad about it" sort of thing. Ironically they dont know a single thing about islam, and universally dont know any muslims.
They tend to be middle class too-- truly middle, and well above average intelligence, mostly with career success. They dont worry about money, really ever. Victims of propoganda? I still dont know.
Not sure if you were making a reference, but one of Israel’s most distinctive propaganda tactics is literally called Shooting And Crying. Basically, get your former IDF soldiers to act all sad about the atrocities they had to commit, so the public focus stays on sympathy instead of the war crimes and genocides they committed. Nobody feels good about kicking a crying person while they’re down, so it’s a way to shunt blame and avoid being held accountable for your own actions.
Basically, divert the blame onto the shadowy and faceless “they”. They ordered me to do bad things. They put me in situations where I was forced to make impossible choices. They forced me to struggle to survive. They are the reason I had to do all of those awful things. Because “they” is a faceless amorphous entity that can’t be held accountable and can’t defend itself against allegations. Meaning “they” is easy to shift blame onto as long as I remain a sympathetic victim in the public’s mind. If I keep crying, I never actually have to apologize for my war crimes, because they should be the ones apologizing instead.
Wasnt aware of that. Horrifying but right on brand for them.
I've been doing a little bit of this with someone I work with. The thing that really got her attention was me pointing out I can't make a gallon of gas by myself, buy I can make a kilowatt of electricity with stuff I have lying around my house/yard. And that equipment will make me more kilowatts, for free.
Yeah, the Technology Connections video on solar panels vs ethanol production (growing corn to turn into ethanol to add to gasoline) was honestly a great tool for convincing people who simply never bothered to think critically about it. I don’t even need to get them to watch the video, I simply paraphrase some of the arguments he makes.
Alec is a treasure. I have some moderately terrifiying switches and I need to figure out a way to send them to him, even if he didn't do a video he would probably like them.
Come to my house and watch me compress algae and phytoplankton and turn it into fossil fuels over millions of years.
This is the way to go.
If they don't have left wing friends they would only have right wing friends, and surely they won't ever change their mind in that environment.
To be real that attitude is a little abusive, "be like I want or I left you!" kind of deal. Preying on vulnerable people that would change themselves just out of fear of being alone. I don't want that. I want convince people of my views because they see how good they are, not because I threatened them.
It hurt most when my mother told me that she voted for him. Most of my family did but I didnt know that at the time.
They are bad people tho 🤷🏻
"Look, my family aren't bad people. All they did was turn their heads when the Nazis came door to door looking for people. It's not like they PERSONALLY did any of that. They just wanted the economy working again."
I don't think they are necessarily bad, maybd ignorant and selfish for not considering the bad consequences on other's lives
Sorry to say this, but your family voted for trump knowing who he is and what he would do to people. They are not good people. Ignorant and selfish people aren't generally good people.
And it hurts to hear it, but you need to acknowledge the facts of reality. I've gone through this recently with my fuckhead uncle, and it still hurts a bit when the stupid fuck tries to get me to call him, but I keep telling him no because he won't change who he is and I want nothing to do with people like that. And it's ok to acknowledge that your family aren't good people, but I wont pretend it's easy to do. You can keep them in your life if you have the energy to try to change them, but know that you can't change someone who doesn't want to change.
But it is not easy to be a good person when you're surrounded by media that try to make everything look ok, even if it isn't. I'm not trying to justify every person who voted for Trump and I don't think all of them are bad people, but they're stupid tho.
I never said it was easy. But as someone who grew up constantly having fox news and limbaugh shoved down my throat for 10-15 years, I know first had just how hard it is, and that it can be done if you want to do it.
We can agree to disagree on this point. Even from alt-right sources, they knew he was going to do shit like deport anyone and everyone he could, and would embolden the police to be even more over the top than they already were. The problem is these people see shit like that as a good thing, which is why they are bad people.
I personally don't care why someone voted for trump, the individual reasons are unimportant when they knew the kinds of horrors he would unleash on us. That's why they are bad people. They knowingly made this choice, and from my interactions with magats around me, they're only upset that the leopards are eating the wrong faces but would probably still vote for him again if they could (and anyone who tells you otherwise is most likely lying, just like after 2020).
Good point. Why watching fox news while you were growing up didn't make a maga person tho?
Because I managed to internalize the Catholic morals I was raised with instead of just paying them lip service. Going to university and getting out from under that mental blanket helped a lot.
Also, the whole gamergate controversy snapped me out of whatever conservative mentalities I had when I saw the type of person I was becoming.
Not easy, no. But absolutely possible. There were absolutely Germans in Nazi Germany that didn't just go along with what was happening. A lot of them fled the country. A lot of them helped the resistance in any way they could.
Turning your brain off and giving in to mass delusion is lazy and wrong.
Nah. Being ignorant and selfish is deffo bad.
Don't pretend. Stop trying to not rock the boat. The kindest thing you can do for your loved ones is to help them find their way out of the darkness, you can't do that if you won't acknowledge reality, to their face.
dude they are bad people, think of the wives of the guards at Auswitz, looking after hearth and home, That's your sister.
They are if they still support him. Can't ride the fence on this one. It's gone too far. Ignorant people can also be bad people.
3 times probably, and looking forward to the 4th one already.
Hey friend, you're not alone in that pain. But please don't let the hurt and anger blind you. We don't talk about weasels like that. Comparing them to Trump like that is unreasonably cruel to weasels.
Their actions aren't your fault, don't beat yourself up about it.
pa suburbs are essentially the south don't feel bad we're close enough to nyc should've known better (at least philly, pittsburg is pretty much ohio)
If you are voting to take away my basic rights and safety we can't be friends. That includes 100% of Trump voters, 90% of Republicans and about 30% of Democrats. If you include less basic rights that unfortunately includes another 30-60% of Democrats or so but hierarchy of needs and all that.
Yeah, especially on my husband's side, we've had to cut contact with some extended family. I'm trans, and we're not even out about my past to these family members on his side of the family. I met my husband after transition. They're Southern Baptist deep south folk, and while they're quite friendly when we meet them, they also don't know about my trans status.
My natural inclination is to not rock the boat in such matters. I didn't suggest we cut off contact; I didn't want to be responsible for cutting my husband off from his extended family. I was willing to overlook it to maintain the peace, especially as we see them very infrequently.
But then my husband told me his perspective, and it chilled me to my bones. There was no question on his part. When discussing it, he simply said:
"They voted to kill my wife."
As a leftist, I'm on board with this sentiment. But as an ex-right-winger, I know this would exclude me from my current community. We should allow space for growth and reconciliation, but if you still support Trump and the Republicans at this point, fuck you.
I agree, but if you voted for him the last election it becomes harder for me. The first one, ya you wanted to stick it to status quo. I get it, not support it. Hillary did suck. The second time it is hard but at least Biden one. But after all the shit, lies, rape, epstein, COVID, fraud, impeachments, obvious corruption....and still support him. That's tough. It is like a Nazi in 1946. Redemption at that point will be hard earned only.
Growth. Something anyone that's still a Trump supporter, or in my opinion still were during the 2024 election, are incapable of. He was already a convicted felon and adjudicated rapist during the 2024 election. Anyone that voted for him in that election is a trashcan garbage piece of trash.
Reconciliation. Something anyone still supporting him is in no way interested in.
You can't reach people that don't want to be reached. And at this point they don't deserve the effort.
Yup.
I forget where I learned this, but about 30% of Germans supported hitler until his cold blooded killing of hitler.
There are people who cannot be reached, and should be shunned by society.
Those numbers were still that high even well into the 1950s. Even after Germany had been invaded, conquered, and literally divided in two, even after millions of German deaths. A good portion of the German population never gave up on Hitler.
I don't disagree.
Hell no.
This should've been normalized in 2016. Probably long before that even.
That's around when I started cutting people out who couldn't see reason. Haven't seen some people for a decade. They thought it was politics, I pointed out they wouldnt leave their daughter alone with him, maybe not vote for a shitty human being rapist? Cut a lot of ties unfortunately. They thought he was going to save the world LMAO.
Found the last message I sent last person I cut from my life. Can't find one from 2016 atm.
I'm unblocking your number to send this final message.
I don't associate with Trump supporters, FULL STOP. You're free to believe what you want, I'm free to walk away. I set this boundary in 2018 and began enforcing it in 2021 after the Jan 6th Insurrection. I want absolutely nothing to do with this administration.
We started talking about car repair because you seemed like a normal, everyday guy. Learning that you're a proud Trump supporter sucks because I did enjoy helping and hanging out with you. But your views are the completely opposite of mine if you think America is being "saved" by Trump. Your idea of "saving" is very strange.
Trump is a 34x convicted felon (for fraud no less), convicted rapist, accused by dozens of women of sexual assault, who raped his previous wife, hung out with pedophile Epstein (why aren't the Epstein files released? What is Bondi hiding?) regularly on the Lolita Express, talks about wanting to fuck his daughter, selling Trump meme coins, peddling products out of the Oval Office, Tesla commercials on the White House lawn, selling "gold card" citizenships for $50k (you can come to America as an immigrant, as long as you have/bring money), dodged the draft yet talks trash about armed services and veterans, defends the nazi hate group the proud boys, calls voters "stupid", threatening to take away citizenships of anyone he doesn't like or criticizes the government (literally what the nazis did, revoke the citizenship of Germans who opposed them)… I could go on, but it's wasted energy.
Logic and reasoning didn't get you into your current beliefs, login and reason won't get you out.
Every accusation by a republican is a confession.
People who look up to Trump or think their ideals are the same, are NOT people I want to be around. This isn't a political stance, we can debate all day on whether students should get free food at school, or that justice doesn’t exist in the eyes of the law, only punishment, etc. This is a moral issue. I will not be part of this fascist regime that American has become with all these concentration camps and deportations for people coming here for a better life, fighting with our neighbors over tariffs. Everyday it's a new stack of lies and distractions from the previous day, inundated with bullshit so you can't even respond before 27 new issues are hitting headlines.
I will not provide links, if you want to check it, you can google. Unless you discover it on your own, you won't check my links so it's a waste of my time. I've been through this, you aren't the first person to be removed from my life over Trump support and won't be the last.
This is a line I draw. Maybe one day you'll see that this is a hate cult, it's all part of the grift to help the millionaire an billionaire class, but I won't be around to care.
This was excellent. Sorry your friend was an idiot. There is the "bet he would be upset if he could read" joke somewhere but I am so tired of that being true.
Oh, he replied quickly, didn't read it at all, told me he wasn't going to read my "rhetoric". Cool, enjoy being white trash loser.
You're a real 1.
"Hell no," is a weird response. Just because you should have done something in the past doesn't mean you can't start now. It should be normalized every year.
I've done this to even my close family members.
I'm willing to cut very special people in my immediate family a break if they renounce Trump, but they refuse to do that.
Their hill to die on is raping kids. They are, of course, devout Christians that constantly talk about God and love.
These people are hopelessly lost and stupid.
the silver lining of being a very queer trans person is no one who voted for him wants to hang out with me anyway, so i dont end up running into them in my social circles. they might want to fuck me though, which is weird dichotomy...
If it helps, a lot of them would also kill you on the spot were it came to light they were having sex with you. Then use the gay panic defense in court.
Stay safe please!
They might want to get fucked by you which is a slightly weirder, given their outward expressions
Electing a useful stooge to usher in a new age of American fascism is probably something this nation will never fully be able to come to terms with, and may not survive. It’s incredibly disappointing and disheartening that we have to depend on the shock value of outrageous sex crimes just to get the attention of voters.
In addition to the normalization of rape culture, here are some other horrible things that are already happening, and continue to get worse as we continue down this path:
I think I prefer, “You enthusiastically voted for an obviously fascist lunatic.” But hey, whatever gets butts in the booths while we still can.
My friends group removed any Trump voters in our orbit, I removed all Trump voters from my social media, and I don't speak to family members that voted for him anymore.
The result? A lot less stupid in my life.
Australian here who was 100% convinced that Trump ran as a joke to get Hillary elected in 2016.
Now here knowing that Trump is an insane old man who should be in a retirement home and not running a country.
But I don't care for the fact that most of American politicians are supporting the terrorist state of Israel. Trump is an insane old man but Israel is horrific. Phone bombs, burning children alive, pumping US citizens tax dollars (that was given to them) into lazy American politicians.
You were kinda correct. Trump becoming the big Republican nominee was part of the Pied Piper strategy of the establishment Democrat party. The Hillary Clinton campaign intentionally uplifted radical conservative candidates in an effort to make winning elections easier. The logic was if the Conservative party looks crazy, the Democratic party can run on simply pointing out that craziness without needing to actually have specific policies or positions. The establishment Democrats loved the idea of doing less work, so they eagerly adopted the strategy and focused on crushing their own left flank candidate Bernie Sanders.
The Clinton campaign and the DNC had done a bunch of oppositional research on Donald Trump in preparation, but chose to sit on it, not wanting to tank Trump's chances of becoming the nominee. They focused instead on Jeb Bush and Marco Rubio.
This is why the US has a bunch of feckless Democrats who never seem to run for anything, only against Republicans. They keep running this same, "vote for me or you'll get the crazy man" strategy, even though they keep losing with it.
Yeah I read a lot about what happened to Bernie Sanders, absolutely wild and really depressing what the DNC did to him.
Every day I waited for them to announce it was a big joke when he decided to run for president. Now our country is the joke.
Seriously up until I got the message that Trump had become president and Hillary had lost I was 100% convinced he was running as a joke and doing everything he could to help Hillary.
The next time he became president I am 150% convinced that Elon musk rigged the election.
I never liked Hillary Clinton but Kamala Harris is brilliant.
I'm not an American, neither is Elon and I have hated Elon Musk since back when he was a beloved left wing hero.. I hated Elon Musk from the moment I saw him and I'll hate him until the day I die.
I hate lots of others, Disney, Amazon, Adobe, Microsoft CEOs.
Just don't get me started on how much I think I should be the emperor of earth.
Kamala is the same as Hillary. Both are Imperialist scum. They aren't as bad as Republican fascists but they aren't exactly better.
Fair enough, I don't want to start anything here. I'm Australian I only know about all of Hillary Clintons crimes.
Kamala seems like a highly intelligent woman who just wanted the best for your country, as far as I can tell she would have made your lives better.
But Elon hacked the election and Trump won.. Now instead of democratic fake socialism you have people in the streets shooting brown people..
I'm 100% a centrist.. But I mean that I think morons crying about the little mermaid being black are just as useless as people crying about over-sexualized big breasted women in video games.
Both sides are equally wrong and pointless, just don't buy the product and move on with your lives.
Being a centrist I'm 100% against Nazis (and here's why I got banned on Reddit).. Nazis only exist to be target practice.. What I'm saying is you Americans should be following in our grandparents/great grandparents footsteps and executing Nazis where they stand.
Israel Army are also Nazis and deserves the same treatment(There's your centrism (͡•_ ͡• ) )
You got my vote. Can't do any worse right?
If you promise to dismantle Adobe you will have secured another vote xD
Same with “I don’t vote” centrists who complain about Trans people in sports but don’t say a peep about ICE, DOGE, and everything else. They can go right to hell.
Anyone that's been a centrist over the last decade is cataclysmically stupid.
Riding the fence through what we've been experiencing is a coward braindead move.
A reminder that 2/3rds of eligible voters in America voted for Trump. 1/3rd voted for him, 1/3rds didn't vote.
Over 60% of eligible voters were 100% okay with Trump winning.
Yup.
Trump can die and it'll be a great, great day.
Not gonna change anything. Americans are REAL, REAL stupid and REAL, REAL bigoted. That's not changing when he's dead. Volume might turn down a bit, but the stupid train is still on the stupid tracks going to Stupidville.
Idk, Ive often thought jail, homelessness, & work were big contributed to that 1/3 number that gets thrown around
Over 82 million Americans were either homeless, in jail, or working for weeks between early voting opened and election day?
That's a little difficult to believe. You know you can vote before election day, right? Like... Literally weeks prior?
I've been voting in Canada for 20 years. Never once have I voted ON election day.
Early voting is not available in every state.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/map-early-voting-mail-ballot-states/
Three states.
Care to explain how 82 million Americans live primarily in those three states so they had no option to vote early?
I mean you are basically correct that there are people who simply don't/won't vote one way or the other. For context I think it's worth pointing out US participation in the 2024 election in terms of percentages was consistent or better than the participation most countries get in their elections, it's not just a US issue. As for why people don't, I don't really have an answer there. Some people just can't be fucked. Some people's material conditions are bad enough with multiple jobs and responsibilities they don't have the time of energy to devote to it. Some people are totally oblivious that it's happening.
A darkly amusing anecdote is that one of the most searched terms on election day was "is Biden running" or something like that if that gives you any context how disengaged some people are.
That said, there are an increasing number of people in the US who don't vote because no one on the ballot comes even close to representing them or their interests. Not to say that they are both equally bad or equally distant from what they would prefer to vote for, but as Democrats move demonstrably more to the right with each passing election, there has to be a line somewhere at which point they are so far from your interests that they don't get to just count on you to vote blue no matter who anymore. For many people, that line was Democrats enthusiastic support of genocide.
To further the frustrations, it was made abundantly clear through polls and campaign strategists that support for Israel was an unpopular stance among democratic voters, but Kamala gambled on trump being scary enough she could ignore those voters. Worked out real well for her /s
They said "contributed". There's also third party voters.
I don't buy that you should just vote for the lesser of two evils. Kamala was a shit candidate that I doubt she was ever expected to win. She was such a shit candidate she actually solidified my view that the two parties are colluding to serve corporate/Israeli interests and have the working class point fingers at one another.
Whenever I see an extremely pro party (left or right) comment online I figured there's an 80% chance that it's a propaganda bot and a 20% chance that its an idiot cause in real life everyone I talk to is disillusioned with the two major parties.
Left vs right is a distraction to keep the conversation away from the haves vs the have nots. Because if the haves and the have nots vote against each other than the numbers are a land slide.
And that mentality is exactly why a felon rapist pedo dumbfuck fascist is the most powerful human being on the planet and absolutely fucking everything up.
Welcome to adulthood, where the name of the game is making rough but intelligent choices to minimize damage.
Hey bud, the Dems are pedos too. They're the same people. That's why none of them ever get held accountable. The rest of the class has it's pencils down and they're waiting for you.
BOFE SYDEZ?????
YOU DON'T SAY!!!!
Yo mods, can we get an auto ban for any losers that come up in here playing the both sides card? It's 2026. Shit's pathetic. I have to instantly assume anyone doing it is a moron, a bot, or a Russian.
You're stupid
Don't breed
Over 82 million Americans didn't vote. No third party, nothing. Did. Not. Vote. Stayed at home.
75 million Americans voted for Trump.
Ah I see you don't understand the meaning of the word 'contributed'. That's alright then
Ah I see you don't understand the meaning of the words "Non-Voters". That's alright then
Harris probably would have lost in any case, but in retrospect I wonder if she would have had a better chance if, of course, Biden dropped out sooner; and instead of the lame, "they're so weird!" angle, if she had leveraged her time in criminal justice to press hard on the fact that Trump is a fucking criminal. Like seriously, criminal vs prosecutor. The narrative could have written itself.
Biden should have never run in the first place, sticking to his word to only take on one term. Proper DNC primary should have occurred, and the Dems would have gotten the strongest possible candidate regardless of who it ended up being.
Disagree with you on one point though: The “they’re weird” line of attack worked, it undercut anything that the Trump/Vance team could say or do. The problem was that line of attack was dropped for being too vulgar/uncouth - their political advisors instead pushed for a unity-style centrist campaign message, hence bringing on Liz Cheney of all people.
How else would the DNC justify not having the much exalted primary? You know, the time that blue maga says is the only appropriate time interact with the voting system beyond "vote blue no matter who".
But thats FPTP too! Bernie supporters like you are why Warren lost. /s
A lot of people don't like cops. And I don't believe her time as AG was spotless enough to pin up against a man who had already (incomprehensibly) overcome the fact that he was found liable for sexual assault by his first term.
The "weird" thing was something that came up because of Walz genuine reaction about some fuckwit being weird.
And it was fucking working.
Then the Republicans got all whiney and saying the Democrats were being mean mud slingers for calling them weird when they were acting weird. And the campaign team decided that they were going to ease off one of the few levers that was actually working and exposing the lies and propaganda for what it was.
That said, your point on leveraging Harris's strengths and past would have been great too.
That's really not a bad idea
TWICE. They voted for him TWICE.
Even worse, they voted for him THREE TIMES. Only two of those got him into office though.
Been doing this for a year now and it's LIBERATING. No. Regrets and haven't looked back.
In my personal experience I find women are more willing to do this than straight men. Just putting that out there, and I wonder if anyone else feels the same
Hard to be around people who actively vote away your rights.
That's pretty broad, who are we referring to here
I don't even live in the US and I know that the GOP is doing everything to strip rights from women.
Oh yeah yeah sorry misread your comment earlier. Agreed
I dunno, maybe the US Government making it a death sentence to have an abortion?
Yeah that's bad, what are we arguing about exactly?
You thinking it's okay to vote women's rights away.
Did you mean to reply to someone else?
There are times I can't tell them that, they're clients where I work, etc, but I will not talk to them. Once they make a comment supporting this trash presidency, small talk stops, I get the job done and dip. Nothing extra, bare minimum. May not even say hi to you when I'm at your office.
Km glad I did find a lot of really cool clients i can commiserate together with.
Otherwise, fuck em all. You voted for a terrible terrible piece of shit that you would not even leave your daughter or wife with. You're a shit person who does not deserve to share the air I breathe.
THAT'S why I've got so few friends! It's my high standards for justice!
Do you need friends? I can make recommendations
I mean honestly if you're in Los Angeles I'd be down for a Lemmy meetup for fun. I did that once with Wikipedians, good times!
That fuck is a zionist and proud, so probably not them if you've got a strong sense of justice https://thelemmy.club/comment/27905541
I'm not but I would! I want to go to LA again, my aunt lives in Venice Beach so I should probably hit her up. I did a meetup for the world cup and met some really cool people! Unfortunately in your 30s you have to start working for friends, they no longer fall into your lap
Well if you do this as a straight white male you lose every straight white male in your life so yeah it can seem daunting lol.
Is that supposed to be a problem?
I'd rather make diverse friends than make a friend with somebody that openly supports Trump and his ilk.
Is it weird that I, a cis & straight presenting, white man, make friends with people outside my demographics? I mean, I do make friends within my demographics, but they are absolutely not Trump supporters.
Is it a loss?
"Fuck off shitbag. You can't hang with us; You voted for a rapist pedophile."
Having voted for the pos is one thing,
STILL supporting it in 2026, after everything that has happened and everything that is known,...
The word straightjacket comes to mind.
2026?
For me it's 2024. During the 2024 election he was already a convicted felon and adjudicated rapist with one massively failed presidency under his belt.
I thought his supporters were dumb as rocks before that, but from that point on I considered them traitors to the United States of America and enemies to everything it stands for.
All my homies say fuck ICE and the police
Who do your homies vote for then?
The problem is that they will then hang out exclusively with people who did.
Or just, nobody. They're a bunch of losers who worship a billionaire. Most of the assassination attempts have been by former Trump supporters.
2016*
He hadn't been convicted in 2016. The only people who knew he was a rapist then were him, his victims, and his friends.
And everybody who saw him casually admit to assaulting people live on national TV.
He was a known racist, conman, and grifter at that point. And the Access Hollywood tape came out before the election. Folks were seemingly fine with all of that in 2016.
IMHO people who voted for him in 2016 might have just been incredibly stupid.
But which one?
I'm confused as well.
Psych. These things are always about Trump
Not sorry. I have no pity, sympathy or compassion for them. I believe we need unity but some things are unforgivable. Especially if one of my sons is drafted to fight in these forever wars. They would have directly put my child and countless others in danger. Unforgivable.
Leave out the sorry and you have the exact words I said to an uncle.
Honestly I'll cut them out and won't even explain why. I haven't spoken to my extremely racist cousin in years. Every now and then he tries to contact me, but I don't say anything. There's a small part of me that wants to believe he could change, but then I remember he named his doberman the n word and yelled at it constantly.
What the flying fuck?
Some people really have shit for brains.
Knowing this guy my whole life he was like cartoonishly racist. Like anything I describe he did will get people saying I'm making it up or exaggerating.
Son, if those people socialised at all we wouldn't be in this mess to begin with.
I just say "supported" instead of voted.
Sorry bro. You can't hang out with us because you never STFU about Trump.
Cry about it
Can't tell if this is a pro-trumper speaking or anti-trump
Def not pt.
ahem (taps the Maine Dem Primary)
We were unaware of critical information at the time. Information that was clearly suppressed. Do however note that we kicked the guy to curb IMMEDIATELY upon finding out, so can we call that an "oopsie?" please.
The man was nothing but red flags, from the Reddit history and abuse allegations to the literal totenkopf tattoo. You were still supporting a nazi abuser before you found out about the rape.
I was willing to accept that he had changed. I mean in hindsight, and now knowing what we do, clearly that was less than true. BUT AGAIN WE DUMPED HIM so bullet dodged.
Was the totenkopf not a huge red flag, liberal?
he covered it up. So I was willing to look the other way, given he was a former Marine. Moot point now at anyrate.
He was a former dog of the state? As if that isn't already a 2nd red flag itself.
Hunter Biden. Guy fucked up A LOT and owned up to it. People love that. It shows that he's real. He's had life experience, and not all of it gleaming. Platner was the same way (as far as we knew at the time). Angels are like unicorns in this day and age, sir, especially when a large percentage of the young male population had some hand in the war on terror. It did last 20 YEARS after all. Are we to disenfranchise ALL of them just because they had commanding officers that put them in places and told them to do things that were unsavory? Are we to condemn out right the follies of misplaced patriotism shown by impressionable boys in perpetuity, even as they evolve into men? This was the question Mainers had to ask themselves. There's an old saying about appearances and paying dues: People are alot like pencils. It's easy to look sharp when you haven't done any work. THAT was the narrative Platner was purporting. Did we get had? Yes, and we'll have to live with that, but at least we are learning from the error, which is more than we can say about Trump supporters. My point was to not lump us in with them. We are NOT the same.
How long did he wait to cover it up? I would have been far more willing to let that slide if he had covered it up years ago. As soon as he knew what it was he should've been at the tattoo parlor getting it blacked out. Not waiting until it gets discovered in a run for Senate.
he did actually. Whether or not you believe that he was unaware of what it was in another question however. But as soon as it was pointed out he got it covered.
Are you sure about that? - https://www.cnn.com/2025/10/24/politics/graham-platner-nazi-tattoo-evidence-kfile-invs
As I stated, the reporting leading up to this was questionable at best, but it didn't come out as that until the Rape allegations cropped up and people started to dig a bit deeper. I also blame the consultants who clearly went "lol, whatevs! Tee Hee!" (no like seriously they actually did that when confronted) about the vetting process.
At the end of the day we here in maine were laser focused on ousting Susan Collins and Janet Mills was just not the sauce to get it done. Mills would have been trading a middling republican shill for a middling DNC shill, and excuse us for seeing the writing on the wall with that one. We were after a "dependable" progressive vote and (Again "AT THE TIME") it seemed that Platner had the kind of punch required to do it. THAT'S why so many were willing to look the other way about his past, NOT because we were unconcerned about it. This was a "By any means Necessary" MISSION. Collins HAS to go, Not just swapping an R for D, but actually revocating the entire concept of what Collins stood for. TBF, a guy that was broken by his time in the military was an attractive option because it would drop that kind of turd right on the DC suits lap so they could see whole cloth what these frivolous wars on terror had done to these types of men.
But then the Sexual Assault allegations became credible and and pretty much every body dropped him IMMEDIATELY. What I find particularly frustrating is that on the one hand I get "Told you so's" and "Fake Lib" comment from you lot and then I also get flack from others folks who are still cheesed he dropped out because they think I'm falling for republican Psy-Op and he still has some path to win if he'd have just stayed in. So NO, I'm not the worst of the supporters. I'm with Troy Jackson now thankyouverymuch. Planter needs to see the inside of a jail cell if you ask me.
Your society is too polarized, please don't be part of the problem.
This was the case almost a decade ago.
Reality: "Lol wha? He was a president before?"
You can say Trump's a rapist without any pretext
Don’t you mean evidence?
We're a ways past the evidence part. Trump is factually, legally, a convicted rapist.
Nope just blurt out "trump is a rapist". If you do it casually enough people will treat it like normal behavior
Can we all normalize not giving Ukraine and Taiwan money even if dems win in 2026? I think there should be an understanding about borrowing 2 trillion dollars yearly being a bad thing and not sustainable
FTFY
How did that come into the conversation at all?
"Might as well cut out all humanitarian aid (whatever is left after DOGE) because it's just giving away money."
Nah. I like it when we give pocket change to a struggling democracy so they can fight our enemy for us and prevent them from expanding their borders and increasing their influence and power.
lol money printer go brrrrrr
Sure, continue dividing your country into two sides. Let's see how that will make everything okay.
I dunno about you, but my policy has always been that I don't want to hang with people who support child rape.
You're supposed to convince them to stop supporting child rape, while still being their friend with no real consequences whatsoever. /s
Not an american so I'm not following the whole childrapingfest so closely. But I don't think a person who is uninformed and has their head filled with propaganda is a pedo themselves. My country voted perfectly againts it's best in the last election, we're a full on MAGA fanboy land just because the two MAGA parties (one is "conservative" and other is racist that gets funded by Russia) had a very effective fear-mongering campaigns in the national news. Are these voters all idiots that can't be helped and should be excluded? No, they just trusted the news they consumed.
I'm also not American, but that doesn't mean there aren't trump fans here too, unfortunately.
I didn't say that. I said they supported one. And I don't want to spend my free time, which is meant to be enjoyed, being around people who support child rapists.
No, but the ones who continue to support a child rapist are.
The thing is, my stance has not changed. I have never wanted to hang out with people who support child rapists. What has changed is that some people now suddenly start to support a child rapist. They're doing this, not me.
Fair, fair. As long as the voter/supporter knows and believes the allegations. The whole Epstein shit is such a meme-y mess that there is no sure info of anything. I could personally send in a letter of how I know my neighbor, who has never been outside of this country, eat a baby there and it would go into the evidence pile. There is a reason why they aren't publishing everything lol.
Oof.
Just oof.
You should delete this comment.
Nah. That is the case. Epstein ain't nothing but a distraction for the chronically online activists. "Venezuela - WAT ABUUT MAH PAPURS!? Iran - MUH PAPURS!!!" It's just a meme, always was. There won't ever be any justice. But it will keep the sheep amused long.
Maybe you should start before commenting on American politics. It's kind of integral to what's going on right now.
I don't draw much of a distinction between actual card carrying members of the Nazi party and all the German citizens that just kind of shrugged cuz they generally benefited from it until they didn't.
After a decade of this nonsense and extreme damage to our nation and democracy? Yes.
It's not like we're at the beginning of something here. It's been TEN FUCKING YEARS. Anyone still onboard with Trump/Republicans has actively refused to accept facts and continue harming our nation. They are TRAAAAAAAASH.
Call me weird if you like but I think there is already a hard line between normal people and those who would vote for a rapist… are you suggesting they come together and be friends? Do you not think the normalisation of something so abhorrent is why American society has already been abused beyond recognition? Fascinating.
Not saying anything about being friends, but if you guys can't find a way to behave, work and exist together after Trump, there is really no future for you. Only Trump2 will win.
You can’t hang with us means we can’t be friends. Doesn’t mean they wouldn’t work together at their job or in their community. I do think they should be ostracised though which seems the point of this whole post.
Well, the other option is to keep attempting to hold hands and sing Kumbaya with fascist traitor fucks who view facts as anathema and who are currently succeeding in fucking up our economy, stripping human rights, and destroying our international relations.
There's only one way I like fascists, and it isn't in a hand holding kind of way.
Every one of us has voted for a rapist. Power fucks people up.
Oh that's just bullshit. You have no idea who we voted for. :-) But I understand that you did and you want to spread the guilt. I understand, but it's kinda fucked up to do that.
They're lazy and not very intelligent and trying to imply that all politicians are rapists.
"Shooting and crying"
You're not understanding me. I'm saying if you've voted for more than a handful of politicians in your life, regardless of patty, there is an almost 100% chance you have voted for at least one rapist. Positions of power attract assholes, and even good people are often corrupted once they enter that world. There's no guilt to me. I've been voting for 35 years, I imagine I have voted for quite a few rapists. Never knowingly. I'm just being realistic.
Well I'm glad you're citing a baseless opinion as fact.
Oh wait, that's what conservatives/regressives do. Nevermind, that's fucking stupid and you should delete your comment.
I have filled out at least a thousand of those little bubbles in my life of voting. To think not one of those power hungry dbags ever raped anyone is wild. Things like the Epstein files show what sex culture is like at the top. I just don't have my head up my ass.
Nah dawg.
Are you young? Because I have voted for a fuckload of people over the years. I wouldn't vote for a rapist on purpose, I'm just doing the math.
So they running COINTELPRO games and you poop your pants. That doesn't sound very communist. 🤔 I say wag your tail and tell the truth. Yeah don't tread on me but wag your tail. They hurting to... they dumb and on the same boat as we.
I think by cutting off contact/dialogue, you're really hurting someone who could benefit from your better views. You shouldn't ever remove your ability to provide charity by simple thought exchange.
At some point the people who burn crosses don't deserve charity, you must understand that.
Some of those that work forces, are the same that burn crosses
Yup, I think the lines have been drawn, and people who confidently support trump do it cause they KNOW he's a rapist, criminal, fascist. I don't think there is any convincing anyone to switch sides now.
Of course I do! But even a dollar to someone with absolutely nothing going on can be really impactful. I'd know, I'm at the worst stage of my life after investing my blood, heart, sweat, soul into a world-changing tool that I don't know how to market. I don't even know why I'm here. But I'm enjoying the experience.
Go on
It's in my username. If interested, let's chat.
I think there is a fraction of Trump supporters who would change their views in response to people cutting them out of their life and who have told them that is the reason. Sort of like how all politics is local.
If enough were peeled off like that, they wouldn’t seek refuge in the consensus of the majority.
Americans who have kept in touch with their Trump-supporting relatives generally don’t put NEARLY the amount of pressure on them that they should.
So these ideas at Thanksgiving become legitimised to some extent. Especially if someone at the table says something like “we should avoid talking politics”, or “regardless of our political views, we need to get along”.
But the mistake is that these are not political differences. They are differences of ethics and basic decency.
I agree that there is a fraction that fall in that camp. I think the human emotional spectrum is very wide, and it's important to approach sensitive subjects with a more profound sense of humility than the person you're trying to win over-- staying true to yourself throughout the process. I believe the boltzmann curve on this would have the same fraction that falls into that camp (who would change their views in response to tie cuts) see an equal but opposite reflection on the other side of the curve where they'd equally cut you off as unworthy of discussing anything with simply because you cut ties over politics. So it really goes both ways, in my view of human emotions and disagreement discussion.
Good point
I do agree with you, however, I don't feel it's my job anymore. I tried pre-2016 and pre-2020 and I'm tired boss.
Pssst.
It's been over 10 years, dawg.
Being nice to them and kindly presenting them with facts isn't going to change them.
*cop
Just like the Clintons and Hunter Biden. Epstein was a cop, too. Mossad, technically. That's why he's still alive.
Proud boys are feds, too. It's like we live in a police state or something...where the state is police...and thus we're lied to for grander investigative purposes. Cuz who do you think of the millionaires club around the world offered Trump a big, stinky bribe or offer or deal of some sort? The FBI knows who offered to rent out their children now because of this thing called "strategy."
We need to build bridges not burn them. Ostracizing Trump voters doesn't fix the divide in this country.
Good people can make mistakes. Good people can be mislead. Good people can believe in lies. We need to build community with these people. They are our neighbors, they are our family members, they are our friends.
Capitalism wants us all alienated. It wants us to abandon our tribe. And it wants us to go forward alone. We have to stop kicking people out of the tent. We need to welcome them.
We have all been lied to by our politicians. We have all been mislead about what they believe and what they stand for. You need to believe that people can come back from mistakes. Stop ostracizing people for who they voted for. Instead find a way to figure out how to build together.
Edit: GUYS WE ALL LEFT MAINSTREAM SOCIAL MEDIA BECAUSE IT'S A HYPERPARTISAN ECHO CHAMBER THAT ROTS YOUR BRAIN. WE ARE ALL ON THE FEDIVERSE BECAUSE WE MADE A CONSCIOUS DECISION TO DO BETTER FOR OUR BRAINS. I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY IT IS SO HARD TO SEE THAT MOST PEOPLE'S BRAINS HAVE BEEN TURNED TO MUSH BY SOCIAL MEDIA. ITS LITERALLY THE ONLY THING THE ENTIRE FEDIVERSE USER BASE AGREES ON. I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY IT'S HARD TO BE FORGIVING TO PEOPLE WHOSE BRAINS HAVE BEEN TURNED TO MUSH AND FORGIVE THEM FOR THEY LACK A HISTORICAL SENSE OF THE MOMENT, THEY LACK ANY SENSE OF SCIENTIFIC UNDERSTANDING, NOR DO THEY HAVE A SENSE OF LOGIC.
We need to forgive people who get trapped in propaganda echo chambers. It's not something intrinsic to them. We have all literally been there.
I don't think it matters in this information environment.
People aren't 'lost,' they've been consumed by their tech and feeds and influencers.
I'm not saying we shouldn't reach out, but... what's the point? If people spend literal hours every day getting drip fed hyper-personalized Trump fandom on their phones and such, being a sympathetic friend can't compete with that. What on Earth are we supposed to do about it?
Burn Facebook down, I guess?
But most of the world has not and never will connect that to the world's problems.
And honestly, Trump is just a symptom that broken system. He was there at the right time to take advantage of it, and for the system to use him. Even if his whole movement dies tomorrow, I don't think it would change a thing; the actual cause wouldn't go away.
I assert this about science literacy, too. Like with climate change.
Scientists putting out little letters and press releases is like blowing into a hurricane, these days. It's pointless noise. And they can't really "stoop" to disinfo peddlers' level, either, because unscientific messages win the engagement war, and they don't peddle controversy for a living.
Thank you. This is a very important point.
Well as a counter to your edit:
This is addiction.
Kindness alone is not going to change people. They need social pain, a stab in the heart, where its most important to them.
"I don't want you in my life when you're like this" (like OP's post) is Breaking Addiction 101. It works. And even then that's not always enough, but it's a powerful motivation.
So I guess what I'm saying is... you can do both. You can reach out a hand with sympathy, like you suggest, but it does not preclude the approach of OP's quote.
I'd argue its best to do both.
Of course, an issue with this is that it doesn't seem like addiction to most. The notion does sound kinda ridiculous to the average person. I think they're aware they use their smartphone to much, but not how perfectly manipulative it is.
Another is there's not always someone in people's lives to apply that kind of pressure.
Nah. Trying to rehabilitate Nazis leads to Nazis taking over critical institutions and going underground to pop back up a couple of generations later. Unlike our grandparents, we don't need to leave a bigger less for our grandkids to clean up.
And when most of us were "trapped in a propaganda echo chamber" the idea of cheering on masked secret police disappearing our neighbors for their skin tone or language would still have been a non-starter. Yes, they were made to believe absurdities in order to make them commit atrocities. That doesn't excuse the atrocities, nor does it make the absurdities anything other than what they wanted to believe to begin with.
The primary reason we're here, is because we didn't properly deal with the Confederacy after the Civil War, especially after the assassination of Lincoln. That open wound festered for the next century and a half, and now we have to deal with it once and for all.
Traitors and Pedophiles cannot be compromised with. If they have committed crimes, they get the harshest punishment, and if they haven't, they should be shunned by moral society. They tried to destroy this country once, and they will try again. They deserve no forgiveness or mercy, just relentless bullying, so their children grow up wanting desperately to escape from that life.
And importantly: their kids should not inherit stolen wealth. It's not too late for slave reparations from wealthy white families who benefited from slavery. Elon counts too, close enough.
Sure but the average voter isn't a traitor or a pedophile, they are at worst a rube.
Rubes who eagerly throw themselves at obviously bullshit narratives because the anger finally makes them feel something.
If they are MAGA, they are both, and all Republicans are MAGA.
Wrong. We're a DECADE into this fucking nonsense. Mountains of evidence have been provided to Trump supporters to try to get them to see reason. They've chosen to ignore all facts, to the detriment of our nation, and support felon rapists who work non-stop to divide Americans.
That makes them traitors.
Lol. Welcome back from the coma you've been in. That ship sailed quite some time ago, and it wasn't our side of the aisle that sailed away.
You cannot build bridges with low IQ bigoted traitors who willingly and gleefully vote for felon rapists who already failed once at the presidency and who openly call half the country America's enemy.
People who continue to support not just Donald Trump but the current Republican party are wholesale traitors to our nation, and the sooner you understand that, the less delusional you'll be.
These aren't good people. They voted for a convicted felon and adjudicated rapist who has spent the last decade attempting to divide America. Too much time has passed, too many events have unfolded, and too much information has come out for them to still be considered good people for the choices they are making.
That doesn't give them infinite passes for being deplorable people. If you coddle a child that keeps misbehaving, they will keep doing it forever. Now, these aren't children (technically) who can be put on timeout to learn a lesson. The lesson is they lose their friends and family.
Sure have. But we don't all resort to voting for felon rapist traitors and parties who strip women of rights and target people with brown skin as a reaction to politicians lying to us. Trump/Republican supporters didn't just vote for him/them because they were tricked. They did it because they wanted brown people out, or women to not have control over their own bodies, or a Christian oriented nation, or simply to piss of the libs.
WHY?!?!?!?!?!?
We judge people based on their actions, as they should be. VOTING IS AN ACTION WITH REAL WORLD CONSEQUENCES.
Not anymore we don't. It's been over a decade and they've been presented with MOUNTAINS of evidence that they've chosen to ignore to the detriment of our nation. That makes them our enemy now.
They're mind bogglingly stupid. Talk to them, but make them feel ostracized from friend groups ,they deserve it
Sorry anything short of death to Trump voters is unacceptable, and in fact makes you worse than them because you know better. (/s since i can't make my reply ridiculous enough for it to be obvious satire.)
Until foreigners apply that to US citizens in general. Then we’re expected to respect the individual who voted otherwise?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_punishment
Duh? Why would you disrespect someone for something they're not responsible for?
They’re all collectively responsible for who they elect.
The difference between the rest of us and them is we take collective responsibility for our arsehole governments.
Lol, no. Nether I nor my state voted for it. Do not blame me for the actions of people further away than your entire country from me like I have any control over what happens.
The country is collectively responsible for who it elects.
This is basic democracy. The problem is none of them can accept responsibility. That just comes in different forms, whether it’s non voting when you can, voting for arseholes or blaming others when it goes wrong.
So they lash out at the rest of us who understand that and vote accordingly at home. If that’s not enough they fund their political PACs to insert into our politics at home. Which is our fault too I guess. Like I had someone try and tell me earlier it’s our fault because we won’t sanction the US.
Wrong.
The US operates under a representative democracy, specifically a system with an electoral college. This results in multiple levels of abstraction from your normal voter.
You're just butthurt people who didn't vote for this aren't accepting your blame.
Cry harder about your grievences with Americans, you're a pretty big fucking idiot
Nope, every democratic country is responsible for the leaders they elect. The US wants to be a special case here and expects others to accept it as one, but it’s responsible for who it elects
Yes, I know. It approved Biden and Clinton, but go on, roll out the excuses for that one too
Fucking hardly. I’m well aware Americans won’t accept responsibility they can palm off elsewhere.
I think the crying being done by Americans, not anyone outside.
We knew this would happen though, after they elected him again. Excuses everywhere, absolving each individual. Excuses everywhere, anger when the mirrors held up, rage when they’re told to stay home.
Butthurt dipshit bitches about the US when it doesn't understand anything about the place, more at 11
No.
Ostracising people for who they voted for pushes them further and isolates them to echo chambers where they become more extreme
The biggest impact you can have is ongoing casual and fair discussion of candidate policy and the effect on them going forward
When you put them on the defensive the natural response is to clamp down on their views harder
The problem with having a casual and fair discussion about candidate policy is that you're doing it with a backdrop of people being murdered in the streets by fascist death squads and your lack of urgency just drives home for these people that it can't be that big of a deal if you're still having a civil discussion about it.
There is no way to be civil and fair with people who have decided this kind of activity is acceptable - they do not have consciences to appeal to. They are the people who only understand fear of repercussions and the exercise of force as behavioral modifiers.
https://www.economist.com/interactive/trump-approval-tracker
There is not a single demographic with a positive approval rating for Trump
If the majority of people that voted for Trump are unhappy with their pick, it should be easy to swing their votes
Your refusal to engage and ostracising people who don't even like what they voted for will do nothing in the long term to improve the country
This statistic raises the question: did they stop supporting Trump because of logical arguments, or because they lost friends and social status?
Go through the data, it's on specific policy and data points
Experiencing or observing harm
If they're unhappy NOW, after the last decade of fucking nonsense, then they can GOOOO FUUUUUCK THEMSELVES.
Us holding hands and singing Kumbaya with them isn't changing their minds. The fact that their shit decisions are finally affecting them is what's changing their minds.
Lol. You don't have much experience with conservatives, do you? Let me make it easy.
Party > Country
Every. Fucking. Time. Them being unhappy with Trump in no way, shape, or form means they're going to swing their votes to a different party. They would NEVER. Under pain of death. Under pain of their children dying. Nothing.
It's always the same with conservatives. Support a piece of shit scum loser until they legally can't vote for him anymore, then pretend they never knew the guy and proceed to vote for the next piece of shit scum loser with an "R" next to their name.
I'd say they were already neck deep in an echo chamber to vote for a convicted felon and adjudicated rapist with one failed presidency under his belt who openly states that their family members who are liberals are a danger to our nation.
That ship sailed a decade ago and MOUNTAINS of facts haven't swayed them back to reality.
Your mindset is one you should have had a decade ago. A lot has happened since then. These people are not still redeemable and no energy should be wasted on trying to redeem them, only beating them into submission.
I wish I had a tenth of the free time you have.
You can choose who to associate with or not. However, I ask that you allow others the same privilege.
Republican Association Matters Too
I don't fully agree. Of course it's problematic that people voted for trump, that's out of the question. But the question should rather be: What circumstances led to someone voting for trump?
People are actually struggling a lot and voting for the person advertising a solution can seem very attractive if you desperately need an improvement.
In the end, voting doesn't fix the underlying system and can only achieve marginal improvements. All Parties are only managing the same capitalistic state and not changing the whole system.
Ostracizing people based on their vote is not a proper solution and will not lead to people voting for someone different. People are more likely to reinforce their existing beliefs if met with heavy resistance.
Also the party war is distracting from the actual class war.
Maybe I took the meme too seriously but I think it's important to consider.
No War But Class War!
Edit: Maybe don't hang out with them, but analyze the reasons that made them vote in the way they did. People who voted for trump probably have the same problems with capitalism that you do but their anger is misguided by populism and capitalist propaganda.
"Voting for the person advertising a solution" ah yes, the dude who said "Concepts of a plan" And word-salad's his way through everything because his brain is as smooth and squishy as half-melted butter. What an excellent solution man he is.
I'm not "ostracizing people based on their votes" I'm ostracizing people who actively want to strip me of my rights, and quite possibly want to physically harm me fuck off with this "We should all be friends, it's the only way to convince them" shit. I'd have better luck convincing a hungry polar bear I'm not food.
We all knew who trump was going into 2024. I can forgive 2016, in truth, I didn't expect him to be as bad as he was. I can barely forgive people who voted in 2020, because by then we all knew he was a fucking idiot and people should have known better. But 2024? Nah. Fuck them. We all saw how dumb he was, we all saw january 6th, we all knew about project 2025, anything less is willful ignorance.
It's not just a "party war," it's a morality war. If you voted for trump in 2024, you have zero morals, empathy, and I genuinely believe you lack the capability to participate in society in any meaningful way.
I, for one, expected 2024 Trump in 2016. At this point, I'm still paralyzed by shock that we managed to get a second chance to save the country in 2020 and completely squandered it.
I guess my perspective is slightly different as I was fresh out of high-school, looking at my first presidential election, almost no interest in politics, and my only real opinion of trump in 2016 was "dude is disgusting and a moron."
I ended up voting third party that election, something about if third party votes were above 5% they would earn more funding or something? I was in a very blue state at the time, so I knew trump wasnt going to win my state, and I figured maybe that 5% was doable that election.
The democratic party supports the war on drugs alongside the republican party. I have lost people close to me because of tainted black market drugs of a unknown potency.
Goodbye Felicia.
Reminder that no 3rd party will control our federal goverment anytime in the remote future and probably not within your lifetime and that the Democrat party, while not perfect, is UNFATHOMABLY better at governing our nation and respecting our rights than the Republican party.
Vote intelligently.
I don't think you are aware of how desperate a lot of people were. I know it's easy to villainize people who want to take away the rights of people you love and yourself. My friends and me would be affected by his policy too if we lived in the US. But the people who voted for trump are still human and not evil in person. They have their own reasoning and problems, they were just convinced of the wrong target. They probably have a lot of the same problems with capitalism that a lot of people have. They just aren't targeting capitalism but some minority or foreigners in general.
I actually live in the US. I have family that voted for him. They're not desperate in the way you think they are. They're all some combination of dumb, ignorant, or the worst of the bunch, the actually evil.
I tried to befriend them, to convince them that the enemy is not what they thought it was. I spent ten fucking years doing that shit. But in the end:
My cousin is dumb, he votes for trump because he thinks trump is an uneducated everyman like himself "He speaks the way I speak."
My aunt is evil, she votes for trump because he makes her stock portfolio look good, damn the consequences "I voted for trump because we all need to vote for our own best interests."
My grandma is ignorant, she doesn't understand the way the world works today, things have changed too much from her generation to really grasp it "I voted for trump because the world is a scary place, and we need his security."
All three are evil in their own way. My grandma never took the time to consider the viewpoint of others, no matter how many times she was given opportunity. My cousin never learned, or trusted in those that knew more than him on a subject. My aunt, the most vile of them all decided that she didn't care enough about her kids and grandchildren, and that the bottom line was all that mattered.
There is no convincing these people. As another commenter said? Fuck em.
One day they will wake up, and realize that actions had consequences, and it's far too late to take it back.
I know exactly these issues myself. It's the same in Germany with AFD voters.
Why do you think your family believes that way? Do you think they were born that way/ born evil?
Raised in an evil culture. Christian Nationalism, White Supremacy, prosperity gospel, the Anerican myth of rugged individualism, there are many avenues but the main pressure is the same: they value only themselves or people closely aligned with them and believe personal gain is the most important goal. Or they're the delusional cultists, the true believers that genuinely think they're fighting a war for God in some way.
Raised in an evil culture is how most Republican voters end up being Republican voters. But I'd like to add that being raised in an evil culture is not an excuse for remaining evil as an adult.
Part of adulthood is accepting responsibility for your character and not continuing to blame your faults on your upbringing.
There are many people raised in religious households that grow up to not be religious. And religions are an EXTREMELY entrenched form of cult culture. So it's totally possible to break free of programming.
I just don't want to give conservatives an easy out to blame others. They don't deserve it.
And that's why I think people are able to convinced by discussion. It might take some time and it might be difficult but they are still human at the core. I don't think people like this should get a platform but it is necessary to push against the spread of hatred and the deeply ingrained propaganda. It is difficult but not impossible.
Not worth the effort. Fix their children by supporting public education and fighting the sources of propaganda. Push for laws about what is allowed to be said in the news, punish lying or fraud.
Changing the mind of an adult who is not trying to change is close to impossible. One of the first steps in breaking indoctrination is cutting off from the source and any connected social ties or they'll just get dragged back in. And those social ties make them feel good, they feel validated and important when their community agrees. You can't fight that.
It's been over a decade and they've had mountains of facts dumped on them and it hasn't moved the needle. The only thing that's changing them is if they end up being personally affected by their own actions. And even then, they tend to just default to blaming liberals/democrats for their self-induced problems.
And? Plenty of irredeemably evil humans have existing throughout human history.
Democracy requires education / free press, modest prosperity and peace. We don't have those any more. A socialist slogan: fascism is capitalism in decay. Also let the system and institutions rot. We know our election systems are garbage.
If you divide the population into a smarter and a stupider half (however you want to define that) the stupid half will always be easier to manipulate, distract, less able to foresee and understand the consequences of policy and decisions. Is it their fault that we let them be brainwashed with evil ideology and religion?
Advertising / public relations / brainwashing is a technology that significantly advanced. We didn't. Those with money or power can hire the smartest people to make fool of us all.
Hierarchical systems require people to advance and each step filters who advances and who doesn't. Instead of a meritocracy, it leads to selfish people who are solely focused on advancement at the expense of anything else like empathy, loyalty, education, truth etc. If you can't play this game you loose. The larger the hierarchy, the worst scum you end up with at the top. And those at the top set the rules of society.
Democracy is fundamentally incompatible with capitalism. But the vast majority of people still believe in (neo)liberalism and the free market to somehow "as if by invisible hand" guide humanity towards a brighter future. Trump voters are stupid, agreed, but there is a lot of stupidity left for the rest of them.
Exactly, we got trump because he's the president we deserve. I can't count on one the amout of people i see throwing trahs out their window while driving, they dont give a fuck about this country at all, they just pretend to because it helps them make more money. If trump actually brings this country down, they'll just fucking move to another country they own property in and cry about how the democrats ruined america.
You don't even live in the US, whereas most of us here know or are closely related to people who voted for him.
But sure, you probably know better.
I've lived through the conditions that produced MAGA, and I honestly could not care less if they felt "desperate." A lot of us have felt desperate, it doesn't excuse literal fascism.
I'm sure slave owners felt desperate when Lincoln gave the Emancipation Proclamation. That's about how much I care about MAGA voters' claims of "desperation".
By the way, try actually finding out specifically what those people mean and you'll eventually realize that it comes down to ignorance, racism and xenophobia.
They became "desperate" after a black man was elected president twice.
But why do you think they are xenophobic or racist?
Doesn't that stem from nationalist and capitalist propaganda.
The notion that one state is better that the others exists everywhere and reinforces the nationalism very heavily. This is just the basic competitiveness of capitalism, that has its roots everywhere.
All these issues can be attributed to the capitalist nature of the state
It's because Europe and pacific Asia were humbled by the war. They know (culturally through their grandparents) that tyranny is not to be fooled around with. In the US we never got that lesson, in fact the war pulled us out of the Great Depression. So for our grandparents the lesson was war saved the economy and led to the US becoming the richest country in the world.
That's why we're so war hungry culturally as a people, we don't know a war that was actually devastating for us, even WW2 was fought overseas not a single bomb was dropped on the mainland.
So now we have a population of morons who think war is good.
I thinks it's also due to a lot of US exceptionalism propaganda. The US was always depicted as the savior or protector of the world. This has been ongoing for a long time, whicg is why the propaganda is soo deeply engrained in people's minds and it is a lot work to actually get through to people affected by it.
It's similar in Germany and a lot of the western world. Foreign countries are seen as uncivilized and people are only seen as humans if they can provide value to the nation. Propaganda is difficult to work against. Some people are easier to reach though and that shows that it is not impossible to reach people.
Yes but I think the lesson of WW2 shook the German people, like it did the Brits and French. Imagine a colonizer like Germany but didn't really suffer much during WW2. That's the US.
I'm done caring why
Because they are too weak, stupid, and proud to end the cycle of abuse.
It's like a man (or woman) beating the shit out of their child and then shrugging and saying "Well it was done to me".
Not sure how I can say this more clearly. American conservatives are bad people.
My parents are comfortably retired and voted for Trump purely because Fox News (and possibly right-wing local TV news) brainrot told them to. Not even social media, which they are too computer-illiterate to use! Just TV!
(Well, maybe my dad's church, too. I've never gone so I have no idea what they're telling him. All I know is that him being more religious than my mom correlates with him being more brainwashed...)
Anyway, the point is that they definitely don't have "desperation" as an excuse. Every single "problem" they have is either imaginary or actively being worsened by Trump and the Republican Party.
Hell, if you ask my mom why she didn't vote for the Democrat (any of 'em, take your pick from Kamala Harris to Al Gore) it's always some bullshit about how she didn't like their tone, or something. She probably couldn't name an actual policy position of theirs at gunpoint! She just sits around watching TV news and hates who the TV tells her to hate.
My Southern family are not desperate, they're just the kind of Christian that cares more about abortion than anything else on Earth and are constantly plugged into the right-wing media propaganda.
My Eastern Washington family are not desperate, they're just the special kind of entitled that refuses to accept that their wealth (banking and farming) came off the backs of others.
Tons of people voted for Trump because they're bigots and have let themselves be convinced that their fantasy version of the country is being attacked by whatever group or groups they hate.
Religion is a similar but different issue which is very difficult to discuss about as it is often deeply engrained in people's minds.
Rich people is kinda the opposite of what I was talking about. They often actively profit from trump or are not affected in the slightest. It is not the group we should be focused on convincing as they aren't really workers.
People aren't bigots out of nowhere. They have real worries but their anger is misguided by the ultrawealthy so they don't lose their power.
The voters shouldn't be the enemy. They are mostly victims of propaganda. The system needs this propaganda so few people can continue to profit. This applies to all of the categories above except if your relatives are part of the ultrawealthy.
I love blaming shit on the ultrawealthy, but I think I'll draw the line at bigotry. If someone is an adult and a bigot, that's all on them.
Not an excuse. Never will be.
Umm.....yeah.
Sure are. They are evil humans. And they've proven that through their actions for a decade now. Well, more if you've been paying attention, but the last 10 years are a pretty good example.
Their reasoning is not based in reality. They have been shown this repeatedly and have chosen to disregard.
The time for making excuses for them is over.
Counterpoint: fuck 'em.
That is not how we will get past capitalism. We need to pick up people where they are. You don't need to agree but you need to take problems and worries seriously to actually convince someone. Antagonizing only reinforces current opinions.
No, fuck them.
That's a lot of words for "I will be hanging out with Nazis".
Maybe not hanging out but at least trying to understand the reasons that led to the vote. I myself don't have friends that voted AFD but I think they have a lot of the same problems that I do. Their anger is just very misguided.
It's possible to both understand the reasons why the US election went the way it did, and hold individuals accountable for their behaviour, including the way they voted.
I have a lot of compassion for people who get so caught up in the right wing propaganda machine that they're willing to vote against their own best interest out of fear. I can't even begin to imagine living in so much terror of some nebulous other that I end up thinking it's okay to round up immigrants, bomb children, and criminalize people's gender identities. It sounds like a horrible way to exist in the world. I am so very angry at the systems that have allowed things to get this bad. That doesn't change the fact that those individuals are still responsible for the harm their actions - and votes - have caused, and people who are willing to throw away basic human decency like that rather than put the work in to examine their own biases are not welcome anywhere near my life.
In other words, causing harm out of misguided anger does not diminish the harm done. So, fuck 'em. It's not my job to play nice in the hopes that they'll have some come-to-Jesus moment.
Right? Why are people trying to make excuses for grown ass adults who have been ignoring a tsunami of facts for over a decade in favor of voting against the best interests of others AND themselves?
I'm old enough to have been around watching conservatives/regressives vote against their own best interests for quite some time, but it's gotten a whole lot more gross over the last decade.
I will never view conservatives as good people and I'm glad more people are starting to reach that same conclusion. The masks are off now. We're seeing what they're really about.
I'm telling you, we are past that.
That period is over.
They've lost the benefit of the doubt.
how about the people who worry about all those who voted for a rapist. Thrice?
voting for a rapist tells you one or two things, you are one yourself, or you support rape. theres no in between of maybes.
I'm so fucking sick of this motto. Intersectionality exists and should be more recognized by those on the left.
That's not what the motto means though. Women's rights and Minority rights are restricted because of capitalism. They have a purpose in the capitalistic world. The class war fights these issues as well. At least in the proper marxist theory.
Yeah Cesar Chavez is a shining example, isn't he?
The left's outright support of Platner certainly isn't an indicator of issues on the left with this, is it?
I've heard that motto used to dismiss and downplay concerns about gender and equality so many times now.
I don't know Chavez or Platner right now, sorry.
I know what you are talking about, I hate that too. Actual marxist theory attributes gender and equality to the class issue as well, which is why gender and equality are part of the class war. They should be viewed as one issue and not seperately. There won't be gender equality before there is class equality.
Edit: looked up Chavez. I do agree with his tactics. The owning class has nothing without workers.
I think supporting Platner is a positive sign as it shows that the root cause is still visible.
Edit 2: I was not aware of these two people and their crimes. I only support their movements but not their personal actions. I should've researched them more.
Cesar Chavez is a rapist and pedophile.
Platner is also a rapist.
Good to see you upholding Class War over Gender War though and pretending like they're the same.
I think the union work actually helped with gender issue as equal pay and better pay helps a lot with emancipation.
It is still just as problematic, if he personally is an abuser
You believe that it's good to look the other way on individual crimes if it benefits the working class?
This is exactly what I mean when I'm sick of hearing that motto being shoved everywhere there's concerns that aren't focused strictly on working class issues.
No war but class war! So I'm going to protect the class traitor that gave all the power to the Epstein class!
Not protect but analyze and understand. Then you can actually fight the issues
Propaganda and bigotry.
And there's no excuse for either. Obviously there's no excuse for bigotry, but even propaganda has no excuse. You gonna believe everything the commercials on TV tell you your entire life? You gonna send that Nigerian prince your entire life savings? Sounds like a you problem if so.
Any adult making an effort to behave responsibly isn't going to fall for propaganda, especially the dogshit stupid propaganda the right cooks up. Especially over the course of a decade as the rest of the world dumps mountains of facts on you to let you know you're falling for propaganda.
Voting can fix the underlying system, marginally, over time. The catch is that the populace can't be stupid and has to vote intelligently over time to allow that to happen. Democracy can't be a well oiled machine if stupid people are gumming up the works.
That's entirely dependent on the situation. You gonna go back in time and choose not to ostracize German citizens that supported the Nazi regime? Enough time has passed since Trumpism became a thing and enough events have unfolded and enough facts have come to light NOT to ostracize the people that keep supporting it. This isn't funny meme shit anymore. Our economy is tanking, our rights have been infringed, our international reputation has been tarnished, American citizens have been illegally detained and EXECUTED, etc etc etc.
Not sure how many conservatives (regressives) you've interacted with. I'm here to assure you that no interaction with them, however nice or mean, is going to change their allegiance. If that was going to happen, it already would have. I've been watching conservatives for decades now and they will not change. I guarantee it. The only situation in which they'll change is if their decisions start SERIOUSLY backfiring and significantly affecting them personally. And even then, they'll resort to blaming liberals/democrats before they acknowledge their own mistakes and change themselves.
There's absolutely a class war. But when one party is REPEATEDLY AND OPENLY VIOLATING THE CONSTITUTION in favor of a felon rapist traitor, then the party war is very much a real thing and a real threat.
Look, the Confederacy was a real threat to the United States of America. Now conservatives/regressives are. They must be dealt with and the nice way isn't going to work. Clearly.
I agree with you. Trump and his White House cronies are corrupt, vile and self-serving criminals, rapists and bigots, but the fact they are in powerful office positions is a mere symptom of a wider problem with the American political, educational, media, and economic system.
Vowing to disassociate with anyone who voted for Trump and other rapists might make a good social media post or meme, but it does virtually nothing to resolve underlying issues, in order to prevent rapists from gaining power in the USA to begin with. In my eyes, solidarity is a more powerful tool than trying to find the true Scotsmen.
The reaching out period is over. For a decade we've tried to get them to see reason. I'm not doing another decade. When someone won't listen to reason, the only tool you have left in your toolbox is to cut them off to see if that's enough of a punishment to get through to them. Being lonely and ostracized can be a catalyst for change.
There is no solidarity with those who support felons and rapists in order to harm others and refuse to listen to even their own family and friends. That's just a simple fact.
It's important to take things case by case. There are always going to be unconvincable supporters, you don't have to waste time, mental energy and breath on them, I get that. But I think the fraction of people who voted for a rapist criminal liar because they like rape, crime and lying is small. Bigotry is more popular, yes, but I think that's because blaming minorities is a clear and simple 'solution' to complex issues, and it makes it super easy for the wealth class to pit the bottom 98% against each other. Loneliness and ostracism are what primed many people in the latter half of the 2010s to be exploited by the right-wing online radicalization pipeline.
And beyond just Trump, if you take guilt by association too far and without injecting nuance, you risk letting the biggest bigots win because our prospective allies don't have perfectly squeaky clean records.
::: spoiler sidenote
I've long noticed N. American right-wing groups will bring people on when they agree on one thing regardless of anything else, and kick them out only once they've outlived their usefulness in accomplishing that. N. American left-wing groups I've found kinda the opposite where one point of disagreement will be the first thing that gets talked about, slowing down overall action. Not all bad though, those groups end up more aligned, but smaller and less capable of mass action. I think the situation is improving overall. :::
Exactly, their decisions might be bad/invalid but their problems are real
When I have problems I don't default to being a bigot and hurting others.