is it unethical to buy off brand but compatible batteries for power tools?
I have a fair bit of construction tools (DeWalt brand) but the batteries are damn expensive
Is it unethical to buy the cheaper compatible batteries
View original on lemmy.world
It’s unethical for companies to force you to buy overpriced essential parts. If you find a compatible battery for cheaper, there’s no reason not to buy it. Unless the company prevents third-party batteries from working in their products...
Nothing unethical about finding a better price.
Are the cheaper batteries better than the expensive ones? If not, dewalt is charging you for a superior product, which is fair IMO. Is the difference big enough to justify the difference? That’s up to the customer to decide. If the difference is not worth it, just buy the cheaper one instead.
Is any of this ethical? Probably not. I suspect both manufacturers have poor labor practices and a negative environmental impact. The way I see it, consumers are destroying the planet through indirect means for the most part. Directly, if you're burning gasoline, and indirectly, when you're buying stuff from various companies. Those companies are directly destroying the planet buy burning stuff, leaking toxic chemicals into the groundwater etc. If you're worried about ethics, you might want to look into the environmental impact these two companies have. If you're serious about this, you might need to do a proper life cycle analysis of the entire production chain, but that's a topic for another thesis.
The cheaper batteries may have a lower true Wh capacity.
But given the cost difference, I've found they have a much higher value - I get 80% of the capacity for 30%-50% of the cost.
And you always want to have at least 2 or more batteries to ensure sufficient runtime.
Sounds like a very reasonable compromise.
You have to keep in mind that power tool batteries are kind of the worst case scenario when it comes to lithium battery safety because they get knocked around, shoved into tool boxes, crushed, etc. of all the consumer products most at risk of fire, tool batteries are up there. That's part of the reason they are so expensive. At the same time, knock off 18650 cells are generally well known fire hazards on their own.
I think it's up to you what your risk tolerances are, but if a DeWalt battery burns my house down, at least you have a company to sue. If the Temu battery does the same thing, you are going to be SoL. I've been building and repairing various kinds of packs for more than a decade and am quite wary of random bootleg cells. I've never had a real Panasonic or Samsung cell fail, only knockoffs.
Well that would be a valid reason to spend more on nicer batteries. Only very few people know enough to appreciate that feature though. Most people would just evaluate the situation based on price and performance.
I'm no kind of expert, but as I understand it, lithium-ion batteries are something to be treated with significant care & caution. Poorly-constructed ones for example are evidently more prone to developing filament damage and becoming exposed out of their protective cases, with the fire risk (in the presence of O2) scaling up by size. Actively charging from AC seems to boost that risk.
So it seems pretty clear to me-- research that sucker when you're buying replacement cells / batteries, or simply dealing with an old, poorly-performing one. Even if the risk of an Li+ cell event is less than 1% (or whatever), avoiding the disaster of that seems pretty wise to me. Personally, I charge my Android devices and my DeWalt module in a metal container, just in case. Also, old cells are stored in steel baking pans & similar.
This sounds like it was written by a bot. My local recycling center has a huge bin of old lithium power tool batteries and in 8 years, I have never seen a burnt one.
You guys are delusional if you think brand = higher quality.
He is right though, a lot of offbrand power tool batteries have dangerous construction
https://youtu.be/Xf0qqsRMKpM
Okaaayyy... I guess I'd be interested to hear how that's working in your mind. Care to explain?
Really, were you expecting them to keep the remains of the few that created dangerous fires around for you to examine? Were you hoping to see a little pile of melted plastic and ashes, is that it?
And you lack reading comprehension if you think that's what I said. Want to try again, boss?
No seriously, matey-- got something useful to reply upon there, mate?
@[email protected],
That's YOU, right?
As unethical as buying the OEM batteries.
you mean, someone else found a way to do the exact same job but cheaper? According to capitalism, all is as it should be and you should rest easy buying the knockoffs.
More pragmatically speaking, from what I recall when I watched AvE (before he revealed himself as a canadian maga), the performance of knockoff batteries was in general adequate as long as you didn't expect the same low temperature performance. That's apparently where knockoffs and the legitimate batteries tend to differ, is when you've got to use them in freezing temperatures. So if you're planning on using your power tools in a frozen shithole, stick to buying legit batteries -- I know you were asking about the ethical concerns, but that's something else to keep in mind. but imo fuck DeWalt, they've already got their pound of flesh out of you buying the legit tools in the first place.
I do miss the old AVE. Pretty big bummer that he bought into all of that Covid and maga crap. Though his content was shifting away from my interest soon before that anyway, so it wasn’t a huge loss. Now if TOT or Bad Obsession starts bleeding stupid, it’s gonna sting.
oh good someone else remembers he went this way, too, I'm not just imagining it.
Personally I'm quite a fan of Peter Brown, Styropyro, Chronova Engineering, Attoparsec, and Robert Dunn's channels (the woodworking/maker channel Under Dunn, the car channel Aging Wheels, they're both fantastic), to name just a few of the better ones. I do genuinely miss AvE's storytelling abilities and Red Green style humor, but there are still lots of people who are enjoyable to watch who I don't think support fascists, or at least have the good sense to keep it to themselves.
I could only imagine BOM getting political if tea, biscuits, or funk were being banned
Say it isn’t so. AvE is MAGA?
I knew someone was gonna ask me about this, so allow me to clarify: I don't know that for a fact, but I picked up on bits and pieces and you would too if you watched him long enough. The thing that made me say "yeah this dude's politics are probably problematic" was when he put out a video in support of the Freedom Convoy. He never came out and straight up said he loved Trump or Poilievre or whatever -- at least not up until then, but that was the point I stopped watching. But it was enough altogether that made me go "yeah nah I don't need to watch this dude I've got other 'make/do cool things' youtubers I can enjoy".
That’s really unfortunate. Like you said, good thing there are other good content creators out there.
This feels like a trick question. 🤔
Am I missing something here? Where's the potential immorality behind it? Maybe if they're work tools and the cheaper batteries ruined the tools over time, sure, there could be an argument for it...
The only way this could be unethical is if your employer gave you the money for buying original batteries and you bought cheaper knock-offs instead, pocketing the remainder.
Funnily, my former job had minimal theft - it was always identified and solved to either's benefit - until a new owner bought over and started copping around & placing friends... The ethical issues during that period were interesting.
Corporations are not your friend. Ethics plays no part in it. It's economics. If they price themselves out of the competition, that's their problem, not yours.
The fact that someone even asks this question tells me there is something deeply wrong with the culture these days. No shade on you OP, I’m sure you are a good person. But it’s obvious that corporate propaganda has worked extremely well.
No, absolutely not, you are well within your rights to buy off brand and second hand equipment. Heck, I consider it a moral victory in avoiding the hellish markups the big brands put on their consumables.
Push back when kind of question comes up, we have to counter the propaganda, otherwise it will soon become law. I’m certain home tool manufacturers would move to a printer ink model in a heartbeat. It’s bad enough that there isn’t a universal battery mount as it is.
The fuck? Of course not.
Corporations aren't people. You can't harm them.
And even if they were, you wouldn't owe them loyalty.
LOL no.
You are in no way morally obligated to go out of your way to protect some corporation's exploitative business model.
Absolutely not. What's actually unethical is the ruinous prices the name brands charge for their "genuine" batteries which under the hood are just as much Chinese garbage as the off-brand ones.
What sort of circumstance could possibly make buying cheaper compatible batteries unethical?
For a typical consumer in America, and likely most professional contractors, the answer is "no" to all of these. And DeWalt apparently only offers a one year warranty that specifically excludes "normal wear and tear".
https://www.dewalt.com/en-us/support/warranty
Anything up to and including prying open the proprietary casing and swapping in new cells is entirely ethical.
Inhumane labor to reduce costs
The "originals" will be built in the exact same Chinese factories by the same workers.
The only difference is which brand's QC controls they pass.
Why would that be unethical? I honestly don't even understand this question, of course it wouldn't be.
unethical? no.
but depending on the batteries you're buying, could be a fire hazard.
No ethical consumption in capitalism….
I think the most ethical would be buying used, no?
Used batteries would already be at degraded capacity, but I guess it's ethical at least, if you can save it from going to a fucking landfill.
That's called the other side of the coin of the free market economy. Capitalism.
You sell your tool's battery for $200/ah? Someone makes the same thing without the tag that is compatible with the same ah rating but without your warranty for $50 and I buy it from them, you lower your price or see your sales drop off a cliff
What you think anyone should actually subscribe to the Ethics for thee but not for me model?
BTW I'll be buying some aftermarket tabless 12ah batteries for my Ego tools when they kick and guess what I won't be paying for 6 of them.... $4,000
Yes, four. thousand. dollars.
I'll be spending less than $1,000.
It's unethical, because when you buy compatible batteries the DeWalt CEO may have to wait a month more for his second yacht.
/S
Absolutely not, crazy position to hold. Fyi you can buy orprint 3D adapters for a lot of things. My dyson runs on dewalt batteries.
This might be what finally lets me buy a cordless crosswave.
no.
This can't be a real question
Intellectual property isn't real.
I like TechDirt's rephrasing to call it imaginary property.
Of course it isn’t.
Those cheaper batteries are usually lighter in weight or a fire hazard though.
No, more like the other way around
It's unethical that companies constantly produce incompatible chargers and batteries that cause more pollution when lost, cut customer options, which after a few years when they no longer get made, cause even more pollution
Why do you think it could be unethical?
Nope, why would it be?
The only concern that I would have buying off brand batteries is durability. They left something out to make it significantly cheaper and batteries are notorious for unexpectedly catching fire.
Have you actually seen these fires in reality? If I were a CEO of a US based tool company making everything in China, I would certainly invest in a PR firm to convince people the exact same battery without a brand would catch fire.
Frankly, Lowes and Home Depot have been repeatedly been caught selling counterfeit tools, so even branding wont save you.
Yes, I'm special hazards and life safety engineer. I design fire suppression systems and fire alarm systems.
Oh shit, got em
The manufacturers of those off brand batteries are unethical because they almost always use inferior cells and less robust protection circuits, and in many cases have less than advertised capacity.
Yep.
But my Wh per $ is so much better it's worth it.
Like I get 3x as many watt-hours per dollar, so while individual batteries may have a lower capacity, I get more run time total per dollar spent.
Only reason not to do it is for high amperage tools like the bigger circular saws. Lower capacity means lower max current draw and could cause the motors to stall out.
No, but corporations that sell overpriced products absolutely love that you’re asking this question.
It’s unethical that these brands get you into buying their tools and force you into their specific brand of battery when you never encounter that in stuff like a GameBoy that can use any brand of AA battery.
There are adapters on Amazon, such as ones I got, that allow my Ryobi tools to use Craftsman batteries.
I can't think of a multinational corporation that deserves your loyalty in that way. It's up to you and me to determine if the markup is a brand name premium or a actual measurable quality improvement and direct our spending accordingly. I have had both good and bad luck and sometimes you don't even get a choice because there's only one battery option available.
I'm sure the companies would like it to be seen as unethical or even illegal, but most people I know (even older non-internet-savvy people) like having more options than just a greedy OEM for parts and service.
I think you can let your conscious rest easy knowing corporate would feed you headfirst into a meat grinder on Easter Sunday live on national television before they have your best interests at heart.
It is possible that DeWalt designs and manufactures its own batteries, and there is some clever tech in them that makes them superior to other batteries, or that they pay for high quality components that make them last longer.
However, it is just as likely that they buy the batteries themselves "off the shelf", put them in a custom plastic enclosure, slap their label on them, and sell them for an insane markup. Sometimes, they don't even need the custom enclosure and they just buy someone else's finished battery product. The "off-brand" option may be the exact same product.
It's not unethical to use off-brand batteries, but then if you buy a substandard one that causes a problem the manufacturer may use that as an excuse to deny their warranty claim. But when was the last time you replaced a tool under warranty?
This would be a valid choice for both the manufacturer and consumer, if it were true and transparent. Most of us have things we spend more on with the expectation of quality and that we spend less on with the expectation there is no quality
For example I don’t buy the concept that my printer manufacturer has magical ink in their resale cartridges. Even if they did, the 3-4 cartridges I can otherwise buy would make up for a lot of magic
I've bought several knockoff tools that work with DeWalt batteries and I have an adapter that lets me use a DeWalt battery in my old craftsman drill.
Unethical is making the tools such that the battery case is incompatible with any other tool. FYI, all tool batteries are just a bunch of 18650 style cells (little bigger than a AA). They are literally all the same inside. Because of greedy corporations, we have to buy different batteries for different tools with different chargers. You know, like back before all phones were usb-c?
There should be a universal tool battery spec. Instead they are all a little different so they can make money and we get tons of e-waste.
I believe in the eu they have standard batteries. It's just us schmucks in the usa that get this bullshit.
It's more of a fire hazard than an ethical issue.
I've been using compatible batteries for years, never had a problem.
And?
OP still hasn't had a fire from third party batteries.
And a seatbelt has never saved my life?
The trick is you're doing it backward. For a lot of tools, the cheap tools aren't much worse than the expensive ones unless you are at the level where they are in constant/heavy use, hours of driving from the store, and you desperately need the extra durability, but the reliability of the batteries is where it's actually worth the cash. Good batteries can hold a charge while not being used and last longer while in use. Cheap batteries can be e-waste after a week of use, or even before you open the box if they're really bad.
As for ethical? The question is absurd. They're your tools. It's unethical for companies to even sell tools with proprietary connectors because it effectively acts as them telling you what you are allowed to do with your tools. There is no ethical problem in bypassing corporate B.S.
Unethical? No.
Ive bought some of the cheapies off Amazon for my DeWalt tools and they worked fine but one went bad after maybe a dozen charge cycles. Still it was $50 for two 6Ah batteries so I'm still in the green compared to having bought DeWalt brand batteries. I also have a friend who is an actual contractor and uses them every day and even he buys the knockoff batteries.
You know you can just do things, right?
It's capitalism, doing whatever is most profitable for yourself is the ethical choice according to these corporations. You're just working within the system they constructed.