We literally have the video of tankman climbing up the tank and not being flattened, it was even reported back in the day, but people downvoting you can't be bothered to google that
I think the downvotes are because the post implies that the Chinese did not kill anyone, when hundreds were murdered. What became of tank man is unknown, but it's clear he wasn't killed by one of those tanks.
I heard it was millions, and that evil communist xi xingping plans of doing it again and name it the scary communist leap forward after his favorite scary communist dictator mowz dong
Because, and anyone correct me if I'm wrong,
most people here know that what happened during the Tianenmen square insurrection was:
Soldiers, mostly the army choir, are ordered to come unarmed and clear the square after months of students protesting in favor of Usonian state-backed exploitative economic teachings.
100+ Soldiers killed, mostly the army choir, by insurrectionists at a road adjacent to the square.
Remaining army choir soldiers lead the protesters away through song from the square.
20+ Insurrectionists killed, as armed soldiers arrived and a battle broke out, on the same road.
100+ protesters killed, as a chaotic indirect consequence of the earlier insurrectionists' actions, at a train station miles away.
Tanks arrive at the square to prevent further escalation.
Tanks leave the square as situation deescalated and tank man blocks the tanks for a while, then leaves, on the same road again.
These insurrectionists went a lot further than the Usonian Jan 6th protest mostly known as the "Freedom Plaza massacre" where "peaceful protesters" entered the capitol building in order to "stop election fraud" where "perhaps 10s of thousands civilian lives were killed as US security opened fire at these peaceful protesters", because unlike CIA-backed insurrectionists, these "peaceful protesters" were ordered by their higher ups to leave immediately instead of being encouraged to block the US army from arriving at Capitol Hill or attack the US army for that matter.
Probably the official CPC figure of 241 killed in total. Most of the serious estimates broadly agree - NSA said 180-500, and the Tiananmen Mothers organisation have identified 198 of the dead.
Since we're evidently reading the same Wikipedia article, I'll point out that those are among the lowest estimates on the page and the Beijing hospital record was 478 dead and 920 wounded.
But these are all very different numbers from what was commented.
I think the numbers are a bit off - official Chinese figures were ~20 student protestors, ~20 police and army, and about 200 other protestors were killed.
You don’t understand the scope. It was hundreds of thousands. It was hundreds of millions. Evil Chinese communism knows no bounds and will consume all. I will take all your social credit points now for myself, silly American
Why do so many of you believe the CCP is better than ICE
Because even Western reporters who were there debunk the myth of what happened.
As far as genocide, Sayragul Sauytbay (basically the sole source of "proof"), has also been debunked six ways til Sunday, and even admits that she hasn't even witnessed these events firsthand. Gee, funny that the US/West lied about Vietnam, lied about Korea, Lied about Iraq, lied about Iran, lied about Cuba, lied about Venezuela, ... literally genocided millions (with actual proof) using the Jakarta Method, coups, embargoes, sanctions, assassinations, color revolutions, etc. Surely they wouldn't lie about China, riiiiight?
are you all bots?
We're bots because we actually read less biased accounts of what happened instead of regurgitating western propaganda?
I haven’t been able to find one legitimate site confirming it was debunked. All the sites at the top of my search are .cn sites and I’m skeptical of those as they have a reason to be dishonest.
The best and most comprehensive resource I have seen so far is Qiao Collective's Xinjiang: A Resource and Report Compilation. Qiao Collective is a group of Chinese diaspora living in the west, and they compiled an extremely comprehensive write-up of the entire background of the events, the timeline of reports, and real and fake claims. The majority of their sourcing is western, and they cite official Chinese government writing and white papers when relevant.
I wouldn't expect a Polish nationalist to have a good grasp on anything but "unarmed student protest" is an entirely misleading categorisation of a violent riot that brutally murdered multiple soldiers who were simply standing guard before the clashes broke out and who's leaders did interviews specifically detailing their plans to incite massive violence and flee to America.
Look at the Wujek mine riot, miners were attacking militia with sharpened rebars and loudly threatening to lynch the captured militamen, but when single inexperienced detachment of militia which shouldn't even been there opened fire (and despite entire chain of command from direct commander to minister Kiszczak and gen Jaruzelski absolutely forbidding this) it's suddenly example of horrible martyrology and one of founding myths of comprador III RP.
Of course hundreds of workers being murdered in the prewar Poland and dozens (maybe hundreds) of thousands of social murders after 1989 are not mentioned ever.
Well, it is undisputed that the CPC censors all mentions of the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests and massacre. Both public and private - the US may lie, but private free speech is still allowed. So can we please stop pretending that China is not evil?
The local CPC deputies have broken into my house multiple times for mentioning it when talking politics with friends (sarcasm). You people are so unserious
Alliance vice-chairperson Chow Hang-tung and 25 activists were prosecuted in 2020 simply because they insisted on lighting candles in Victoria Park despite the government prohibiting the vigil that year, ostensibly on Covid-19 grounds. In 2021, after the police banned the vigil once again, Chow was arrested on 4 June after encouraging people on social media to commemorate the crackdown by lighting candles.
Ultimately, Chow was jailed for 22 months for taking part and inciting others to take part in an unauthorised assembly. She and fellow Hong Kong Alliance leaders Lee Cheuk Yan and Albert Ho have also been charged with “inciting subversion” under the National Security Law and all three face a maximum sentence of life imprisonment.
Amnesty always manufactures consent for shit, but assuming this is true, why would any government be okay with people commemorating an attempt to overthrow them? You're so unserious
Lemmy turning into a big propaganda machine always trying to pit us all against each other rage baiting Europeans vs Americans vs Asians vs etc. if we could all stop and smell the flowers we would be stronger.
lemmy was primarily a marxist space before reddit's API update drove a bunch of you here. there's no grand conspiracy or big plot to divide people on our part; we're just talking about what we always have while liberals from reddit try to fling shit.
Westerners aren’t helpless innocents whose minds are injected with atrocity propaganda, science fiction-style; they’re generally smug bourgeois proletarians who intelligently seek out as much racist propaganda as they can get their hands on. This is because it fundamentally makes them feel better about who they are and how they live. The psychic and material costs are rationally worth the benefits.
-Roderic Day
All the libs in the comments really living up to the quote.
Don't feel that you need to argue with these racists, because it can lead to burn-out quickly. You can always report them and we'll try to get to it ASAP.
Also thank you for your hard work in educating everyone. It's not going to waste, and everyone is learning a lot from your posts. o7
Also thank you for your hard work in educating everyone. It’s not going to waste, and everyone is learning a lot from your posts. o7
Thank you always great to hear.
Don’t feel that you need to argue with these racists, because it can lead to burn-out quickly. You can always report them and we’ll try to get to it ASAP.
Yeah definitely I always make sure to report any actual racism etc I see but it is fun to blow off steam arguing with/making fun of them at the same time even if it's entirely unproductive.
Speaking from experience. Still be careful. Even when you think you are blowing off steam, more could be going on then you think. I didnt realize how miserable I had gotten till I had take some time away.
Arguing with randos on the internet can honestly really fuck with a person.
I just finished reading this article today a few hours ago! it felt like such an eerily perfect dissection of liberals it is incredible impressive, it doesn't reduce their annoyance but it does provide an easier way to deal with it
Since we have a lot of racist redditors coming over here catching bans for their historical ignorance about the June 4th incident, here are some resources:
It wasn't a massacre of peaceful students, but a skirmish between PLA soldiers and armed detachments from the pro-capitalist / free market reform movement. The protest movement, as evidenced by their own accounts, called for market liberalisation, and free market reforms, rallying around a replica of the statue of liberty. After the movement had been building in the square for seven weeks, unarmed soldiers were sent in to disperse the protesters, after which many soldiers were beaten to death, torched, and lynched. The New York Times death count went from 2600, to many thousands, to 8000, to tens of thousands. In reality only around ~200 (including soldiers) were killed or trampled, in smaller clashes outside the square. The on-scene New York Times reporter disavowed the article, especially about machine-gunning of protesters. A wikileaks cable from a US ambassador to the US state department, confirmed that no killings or machine-gunnings took place in the square.
God. Its so nice for someone to link resorces. Idk wtf was up with the MLs Ive ran into in the past but they'd just yell at you and never provide any sources. It's not exactly easy to find shit on China that isn't western AF if you don't know what you are doing. Which admittedly I do not. I've always had to use others to find good sources of information outside the imperialist umbrella.
Unfortunately, I think the reason this happens is because it's difficult to remain calm and optimistic within a western-dominated internet. Some comrades react emotionally, rather than trying to create new comrades, either out of exhaustion or a belief that it's too difficult.
I think trying to raise the quality of how we engage with people as communists is one of the more important tasks with organizing.
Never feel bad about asking for a source, or investigating the sources people post. Imperialist propaganda can't be debunked without rigorous investigation, and good journalists / investigators are out there, as much as western states would like to make them invisible (or kill them).
I forget exactly how the saying goes, might be from the Buddha: "3 things can't stay hidden for long. The sun, the moon, and the truth".
The image is misleading, but the CPC itself acknowledged at least 241 deaths. Also, you cannot find information about the incident while in China. Can personally confirm.
Because massacre is poor categorization of what was a violent clash between rioters and the military acting as riot police. Like why pretend to be a leftists when you're a Canadian settler shitlib. Clearly not very good at categorising things. Also when did I deny their were restrictions around what is a very sensitive event that had western backing? All I said was that it is taught about as part of a mandatory course at university. The idea it's fully blacked out is western chauvinist fantasy and honestly not even a very creative one. You are not very intelligent are you?
You know there are photos of the dead people right? And videos?
Canadian Seltler shitllib? Hahaha. Cute, friend. You know nothing about me.
Nice that you went and checked my history as to come up with something to side track my points. I am not sure if you are a CCP shill or just brainwashed in propaganda.
Also, you are moving the goal post, friend. You told the guy you responded to that the Tiananmen Square masacre was not censored. It is. That is my point and provided proof that it is and I can do that without lowering to your level of insults. Clearly, I hit a nerve, it is okay Comrade. Be happy.
There is a reason why put a link in Chinese in an English speaking forum without translaltion.
You know there are photos of the dead people right? And videos?
People die when rioters (whose leaders did interviews explaining their plan to incite massive violence and flee to America) clash with the military did I deny that? It was categorically not a massacre.
You know nothing about me.
From replying to you before I know you're Canadian and a self proclaimed lib thus 90% chance you're white thus a settler. So taking it all together Canadian settler shitlib.
Nice that you went and checked my history as to come up with something to side track my points. I am not sure if you are a CCP shill or just brainwashed in propaganda.
Again didn't check your history we've simply talked before. Also holy chauvinism really reinforcing the whole settler shitlib. And it's CPC not CCP.
Also, you are moving the goal post, friend. You told the guy you responded to that the Tiananmen Square masacre was not censored. It is.
Massive twisting of what was said. He said you couldn't find any information when in fact it is part of the mandatory university course which is all I pointed out.
You are referring to unarmed protestors against fully armed military, with tanks? LOL, aha. Damn those rioters attacking the military with their own blood, splattered on the square. Those demons!
Not white. You know nothing about me. Keep Shilling, Comrade.
Oh, we talked before? Is that so? Oh, fair, but I do not remember you, nor care to know you. It is true that I am a Liberal and I will give you the decency of not being as petty as you, since I do not have to rely on insults when I have facts and sources.
Again, all you have proven is that I hit a nerve. Can't even take the slightest of critism.
So, here is the difference of the searches that people did even back in the day, noticed the difference between the searches in Chinese VS the ones outside of China. Thus proving OPs and my point.
For anyone to look, like this is nothing new. This is how China would change results on actual internet searches.
https://imgur.com/a/vbkFA
The university course on your link is reframed, obviously. That is the whole point on censorship. I can tell by the other curses and the content that a lot of things are reframed as well. Again, there is reason why you posted a Chinese link in an English focused site. We all know how idealogues think.
Anyway, stop lying.
That point remains.
Lastly, on this segment of this documentary, Tank Man, these Asian students claim to not even recognize the famous "Tank Man" when asked.
So, either they do not know, which I fully doubt, if you hear what she says, or they do know, which is the case,but do not want to publicly discuss it on camera and risk getting any type of trouble. Take your pick.
You are referring to unarmed protestors against fully armed military, with tanks? LOL, aha. Damn those rioters attacking the military with their own blood, splattered on the square. Those demons!
They literally immolated and lynched military guards to start the riot. You are extremely fucking arrogant for how little you understand anything.
when I have facts and sources
Lmao. What you actually have is a chauvinist fantasy and an immense arrogance.
Can’t even take the slightest of critism.
you have provided no criticism just a vast misrepresentation of what I said and the events in question.
So, here is the difference of the searches that people did even back in the day, noticed the difference between the searches in Chinese VS the ones outside of China. Thus proving OPs and my point.
Again not what we were talking about he said there was no information implying and perpetuating the nonsense lie that the date/event is scrubbed from history which is factually incorrect in the same way saying Winnie the pooh is banned is factually incorrect.
The university course on your link is reframed, obviously. That is the whole point on censorship. I can tell by the other curses and the content that a lot of things are reframed as well. Again, there is reason why you posted a Chinese link in an English focused site. We all know how idealogues think.
Chauvinism.
Lastly, on this segment of this documentary, Tank Man, these Asian students claim to not even recognize the famous “Tank Man” when asked.
He's famous because who he is and what he did are completely reframed in the west as some sacrificial martyr jumping Infront of tanks (generally with the implication that he was ran over) whereas in reality he was a random man who wanted the tanks to return to the square and was ushered off by passers by not really a revolutionary figure or particularly relevant to the event as a whole. You people are so insufferably arrogant your vision and imagination must be reality.
Rely in common sense comrade.
"Just believe the western propoganda". I'm no comrade of yours you Hitlerite settler.
Lastly, on this segment of this documentary, Tank Man, these Asian students claim to not even recognize the famous “Tank Man” when asked.
I genuinely can't believe a person can be this dumb. Did you ever consider the fact that Tank Man is completely irrelevant for history and it's only a fucking image for propaganda? Why anyone knows about the image? Because is the image about the square that appears when people talk about the event. This guy is completely irrelevant.
I love whenever someone posts the "tank man" photo because the liberals always reveal themselves like roaches scattering across the room when a lightswitch is turned on. Mod ban hammer squish them all plz and thank you.
And both pictures show off firsthand a brutal government dictatorship (in everything but name) that is actively going against the will of its people and stamping down boots on the throats of civilians who dare question or hesitate in the face of their rule.
The protestors in Tian'anmen were a mix of Gang of Four hardliners upset at Reform and Opening Up, and student protestors backed by the CIA that wanted to liberalize the economy. They didn't have a consistent goal. Decades later, over 90% of the public in China support their government:
You have a hypothesis with no backing. Back up your hypothesis, or accept that the citizenry of China support it because it works really well and is getting better all the time. Obviously people would change a lot about China, the major difference is that they expect the government to bring about that change, rather than assuming it won't.
Further, no, the rioters in Beijing were firebombing PLA vehicles and lynching officers before the PLA was sent in. That's why hundreds died.
People have reported on the execution vans, that's just fake though. As for the suicide nets, the PRC has a lower suicide rate than the US, and lower than Taiwan, so not sure what your point is there.
If the Chinese people agree with you, they're being honest. If the Chinese people disagree with you, they actually secretly agree with you but are too scared to say it.
Bro this is just political Niceguyism. "No dude she totally likes me and hates her boyfriend of 5 years, she's just too afraid of him to show it. He's probably abusive."
Well they kinda have to or one of those murder vans shows up. A lot of doctors regularly get 100 percent of the vote. That must mean they were beloved dictators?
He is saying a lot of dictators have 100% approval ratings. Misspelled it as doctor.
And the "murder vans" is a reference to execution vans that China uses.
"Yunnan officials authorized the use of execution vans in March 2003 and the province deployed 18 vans in the same year. Zhao Shijie, president of the Yunnan Provincial High Court, said, "The use of lethal injection shows that China's death penalty system is becoming more civilized and humane". Amnesty International expressed concern that the use of execution vans could increase the use of executions. The Supreme People's Court encouraged provinces to adopt execution vans in December 2003.[2]"
There is a lot of activity about the vans being talked about online I am surprised you haven't heard of this before.
Execution vans aren't a real thing, though. China does have the death penalty, but not in this comical way, same as PLA suicide helmets. I've seen the claim before, but it's ridiculous to believe them. You can see that the sources in the Wikipedia article don't even back up what is claimed.
As for the idea that "a lot of dictators have 100% approval ratings," I don't see how it matters. Fear of the possibility of something isn't evidence of it happening.
Your evidence for the claim "Yunnan officials have started using execution vans at the behest of the Supreme People's Court and Amnesty International is concerned" is....
...the Wikipedia pages for Yunnan, Amnesty International and the Supreme People's Court.
stamping down boots on the throats of civilians who dare question or hesitate in the face of their rule.
Comrades, you ever notice how when communists write about things like this it reads like a history book and when libs write about things like it it reads like young adult fiction? These mfs think they're giving a speech in a movie
Damn dude being an anticommunist is so easy, you can just make shit up and as long as it FEELS right you can just say it with your whole chest, and proceed to ignore people who actually know what you're talking about.
Fuckin sweet
Anyway, show me literally any evidence of a tank firing its weapons that day
The tanks shown were leaving the square, which was evacuated peacefully. Even wikipedia backs this up:
In 2011, three secret cables from the United States embassy in Beijing from the time of the events were leaked and published by WikiLeaks, all of which stated that there was no bloodshed inside Tiananmen Square itself.[185] Instead, they said Chinese soldiers opened fire on protesters in Beijing outside the square, around Muxidi station, as they fought their way from the west towards the centre.[185] A Chilean diplomat who had been positioned next to a Red Cross station inside the square told his US counterparts that he did not observe any mass firing of weapons into the crowds in the square itself, although sporadic gunfire was heard. He said that most of the troops who entered the square were armed only with anti-riot gear.[185][207]
Conflict between rioters and the PLA outside the square around Beijing resulted in ~250 deaths total, soldiers and rioters combined, and the violence was kicked off by rioters lynching and burning alive officers 2 days prior to clearing the square.
Only a few hundred people died, not thousands. And some people may have been armed! So it’s fine to kill scores of people.
"Some people" aka insurrectionists were not maybe armed.
These insurrectionists bombed and killed soldiers. And THEY. BOMBED. FIRST.
There is no maybe in this scenario just as much as there is no maybe in the Jan 6th insurrection.
What were these other soldiers supposed to do that are trained to fight and protect their country?
Just stand there and take some more?
What is the proper response according to you when a group of terrorists bombs a military convoy?
The tanks were driving away and didn’t kill anyone this time
They didn't kill him because he posed no threat unlike the terrorists that bombed their convoy.
End of story.
This is just the other bullet points again! I'm sure if more armed rebels entered the capital it would have been incredibly messy and people would have died. And killing a ton of people, regardless of why, is a failure of government. Conflating one violent protest with another and then saying "America Bad so China Fine" is inane.
Were the deaths of 20 "armed rebels" during september 11 2001 and the consequent killings in Pakistan a failure the Usonian government?
Was the cause of the twin towers collapsing and ~3000 dying, a result of Usonia being too much of a police state?
Or why not go to something more recent, is the armed rebellion since 2014 in Ukraine,
that's more recently backed by Russian troops, against Zelensky,
an example to you that Ukraine is a police state?
I’m sure if more armed rebels entered the capital it would have been incredibly messy and people would have died.
Is thus the Jan 6th insurrection an example to you of Usonia being a police state?
And killing a ton of people, regardless of why, is a failure of government.
So if a government A declares war on government B and starts to use lethal force, it's a failure of government B if it decides to kill the invading army?
What if government A has a drug policy to keep as many people addicted to a drug in government B and if government
What if government A decides to support a destructive religious cult in government B and these people start to violently suppress any form of criticism against them while infiltrating key political positions?
And does a "failure of government" automatically mean that such government is a police state?
Conflating one violent protest with another and then saying “Usonia Evil so China Good” is inane.
No, what's inane is to conflate the actions of a government that uses lethal force to respond to terrorists doing terrorist acts at a protest with legalized murder by car to any protester that blocks a roadway, have your secret police shoot and arrest anyone who films during a protest including journalists, have your secret police force migration of the homeless and of legal immigrants and citizens deemed "culturally inferior", by calling them both police states.
You are not living in a totalitarian police state when your government is failing to arrest a terrorist group carrying dozens of petrol bombs during a protest that was going on for months on end. A police state would suppress the protest on day one, which is what Usonia is doing to pro-Palestine protests. A totalitarian would surveil all protesters on day one, which is what Usonia is doing.
Usonia is experiencing indirect pressure from another country for the first time in history,
indirect pressure that is extremely mild and yet I would argue it's reaction was to immediately put a fascist into power and go further into fascism than Nazi Germany.
Nazi Germany tried to genocide all Jews, Usonia seems to target the whole planet except for the Zionist Jews.
Usonia harbored an extreme "we are the exceptionally freedom people" ideology, an off-shoot of the century earlier "we are the exceptionally civilized people" ideology, but now due to the extremely mild external pressure, Usonia has gotten far worse and made a 180 degree turn to every rule it imposed on other nations for itself and now forces other nations to follow.
Even worse, it's gone so far as to flip these rules again on a daily whim, if not every hour, minute or second.
Nazi Germany did not do that.
Nazi Germany at least seemed to care somewhat about its own citizens.
MAGA Usonia seems to want to starve its own citizens to death, even the vast majority of its own supporters seem to be inferior creatures not worth living in the eyes of the Usonian oligarchs.
What were these other soldiers supposed to do that are trained to fight and protect their country?
Just stand there and take some more?
What is the proper response according to you when a group of terrorists bombs a military convoy?
You edited your post so I'll reply again:
The test, which America and China both repeatedly fail, is having professional law enforcement and soldiers kill their own citizens. This is one of the most utter, final failures of government. There are plenty of options besides killing people, and when you take up arms and swear oaths to protect your country, and then kill citizens of your own country, you break your oath.
Your argument fails because there's no need to actually intercede and halt protests. In the case of the pro-democracy movement crushed by the PLA in June 1989, martial law and attacks on protesters had begun en masse 2 weeks before the massacre. There was a steady escalation of violence leading up to the riots in early june. So the idea that the protestors "struck first" (even if that is a justification, which it isn't, is false. The facts, which aren't in dispute, were that the anti-corruption policies implemented to answer the complaints of the protestors were well-received, and further reforms were desired by everyone, not just the student protestors. Everyone except the local officials who were at risk of losing their positions by a government overhaul from authoritarianism to democracy.
The protest could have continued to be disrupted the way they already were before the massacre:
Through wiretaps and arrests
Through planted dissenters sowing chaos in the student's ranks
Through rubber bullets + tear gas, and other nonlethal methods
Instead, even though 300,000 people were protesting that period, the actions of an interim commander who acted on poor discipline and leadership, directly lead to at least hundreds, and possibly thousands, of his own people, in a small section of the city. That is a spectacular failure, and the end of a certain degree of human autonomy in China.
This is coming from someone who actually thinks China is leading the world in many ways. I do genuinely believe that China is actually less corrupt than many other nations, and the high degree of social cohesion in-country is something that gives them strength. Like I said in my first post: lots to admire, but this ain't it.
The protest could have continued to be disrupted the way they already were before the massacre:
Through wiretaps and arrests
Through planted dissenters sowing chaos in the student’s ranks
Through rubber bullets + tear gas, and other nonlethal methods
A) There was no "massacre"
B) We have no idea if these tactics weren't also used, and
C) Let's be honest, if they had done these things and it had worked, you people would never shut the fuck up about that either.
The tanks shown were leaving the square, which was evacuated peacefully. Even wikipedia backs this up:
In 2011, three secret cables from the United States embassy in Beijing from the time of the events were leaked and published by WikiLeaks, all of which stated that there was no bloodshed inside Tiananmen Square itself.[185] Instead, they said Chinese soldiers opened fire on protesters in Beijing outside the square, around Muxidi station, as they fought their way from the west towards the centre.[185] A Chilean diplomat who had been positioned next to a Red Cross station inside the square told his US counterparts that he did not observe any mass firing of weapons into the crowds in the square itself, although sporadic gunfire was heard. He said that most of the troops who entered the square were armed only with anti-riot gear.[185][207]
Conflict between rioters and the PLA outside the square around Beijing resulted in ~250 deaths total, soldiers and rioters combined, and the violence was kicked off by rioters lynching and burning alive officers 2 days prior to clearing the square.
In 2011, three secret cables from the United States embassy in Beijing from the time of the events were leaked and published by WikiLeaks, all of which stated that there was no bloodshed inside Tiananmen Square itself.[185] Instead, they said Chinese soldiers opened fire on protesters in Beijing outside the square, around Muxidi station, as they fought their way from the west towards the centre.[185] A Chilean diplomat who had been positioned next to a Red Cross station inside the square told his US counterparts that he did not observe any mass firing of weapons into the crowds in the square itself, although sporadic gunfire was heard. He said that most of the troops who entered the square were armed only with anti-riot gear.[185][207]
Conflict between rioters and the PLA outside the square around Beijing resulted in ~250 deaths total, soldiers and rioters combined, and the violence was kicked off by rioters lynching and burning alive officers 2 days prior to clearing the square.
that statement is in quotes because it is LLM. which is why i had to specify that i have read it and it tracks with my position on the matter.
if the information is deficient then because i have used it to stake my portion then others can take that up with me because it is the position i hold.
Of the few hundred people that died in the riots and fighting, the square was dispersed peacefully. The truth about Tian'anmen is that hundreds of protestors and PLA officers were killed in Beijing that day as the PLA advanced towards the square, but that the square itself was evacuated peacefully, which matches leaked US cables and the CPC's official stance on what it calls the "June 4th incident". This is a rejection of the commonly reported story of 10,000 people being killed on the square itself, which originated from a British diplomat's cable. Said diplomat was later confirmed to have evacuated well before.
Western nations intentionally sensationalize the quantity of deaths and the character of the events. This is also why Western Nations don't frequently report on the South Korean Gwang-Ju massacre that occured around the same era, where the South Korean millitary murdered thousands of High School and College students protesting against Chun Do-Hwan's dictatorship. All of what I said is backed up by the Wikipedia page for Tian'anmen Square Protests and Massacre, such as Alan Donald revising his estimate from 10,000 to the low thousands yet BBC continuing to report the 10,000 figure:
In a disputed cable sent in the aftermath of the events at Tiananmen, British Ambassador Alan Donald initially claimed, based on information from a "good friend" in the State Council of China, that a minimum of 10,000 civilians died,[237] claims which were repeated in a speech by Australian Prime Minister Bob Hawke,[238] but which is an estimated number much higher than other sources provided.[239][240] After the declassification, former student protest leader Feng Congde pointed out that Donald later revised his estimate to 2,700–3,400 deaths.
The truth is that hundreds of rioters and the PLA died that day, but the square was evacuated peacefully. You believe right-wing propagandist slander.
None of my rebuttals are oxymorons, so I'm not sure what you mean by that. Secondly, the fact that China disagrees with the west does not mean that the west is correct. I thoroughly debunked your assertions supporting claims by Alan Donald, who fled the scene before the square was dispersed. You aren't using rhetoric well, and the LLM nonsense is trained on western information and thus is dominated by the propagandist view.
The US is lying through their teeth about Iran, but Iran is hardly a communist government. They're a theocratic authoritarian regime. There is no diversification of power in their government. Roles and responsibilities may be delegated out, but ultimate authority rests with the Ayatollah.
I'm not saying Iran is communist, I'm saying it doesn't matter. If the US considers you an enemy, your reputation will be buried under a deluge of bullshit, one myth stacked on top of another, until the average american conversation about you essentially becomes collaborative fanfiction.
I like how this comments sections is ml people fighting with ml people, as well as Chinese nationals fighting with Chinese nationals over what really happend.
I know lol, but it also doesn't mean anyone who is opposing the meme isn't one either.
I've seen my fair share of educated/intellectual people deny the circumstances of the Bengali genocide for decades until the Pakistani army went lunatic a couple of years ago and confirmed what was previously considered exaggerated fiction.
Tbf though, I'm fairly sure Tankman made it out alive without a scratch, but that overlooks the people who actually died in Tiananmen.
Not that the US is going to fare any better, especially with the empire beginning to crumble.
It's so illegal to talk about that it's mandatory at university to learn about as part of the mandatory "outline of modern Chinese history" at university.
The cause of socialism with Chinese characteristics continues to advance (1) The occurrence and subsidence of the political turmoil in 1989 The reasons for the turmoil: the emergence of corruption, the dissatisfaction of the people, the party's mistakes in its work, and the destruction of hostile forces Summary after the turmoil subsides: stability is very important; "one center, two basic points" cannot be shaken; always pay attention to correcting mistakes; Unable to succumb to external pressures
Cool cool do you have what they say about the literal ethnic cleansing of ouïghour ? Or their annexation of Tibet ? Is it also because america is mean ?
Oh y mean the country they loan money to are happy to say the money giver did nothing wrong. Must be a racy then.
Also of s fucking hilarious cause the photo of the tank man is ban in china while the one about the ice incident was published everywhere in America but yeah sure no difference at all. America bad CCP good
So your hypothesis is that every single muslim nation on earth is so corrupt that China was able to buy their complicity in a genocide? How do you explain the US completely failing to do the same despite having more money?
It s well documented. You are delusional for thinking a gouvernement that declare and displace troop from the fucking military for a protest was just to appease the situation
Lol. Lmao, even. You've shared debunked propaganda that doesn't cite any proper sources. I'll refer you to Dessalines's thread about what actually happened in Tiananmen.
Though while we're here, let's address Tibet, shall we?
In the second one, they also go further into the history and abuse serfs, peasants, and lower-class monks endured, and has the following:
Whatever wrongs and new oppressions introduced by the Chinese after 1959, they did abolish slavery and the Tibetan serfdom system of unpaid labor. They eliminated the many crushing taxes, started work projects, and greatly reduced unemployment and beggary. They established secular schools, thereby breaking the educational monopoly of the monasteries. And they constructed running water and electrical systems in Lhasa.
Heinrich Harrer (later revealed to have been a sergeant in Hitler’s SS) wrote a bestseller about his experiences in Tibet that was made into a popular Hollywood movie. He reported that the Tibetans who resisted the Chinese “were predominantly nobles, semi-nobles and lamas; they were punished by being made to perform the lowliest tasks, such as laboring on roads and bridges. They were further humiliated by being made to clean up the city before the tourists arrived.” They also had to live in a camp originally reserved for beggars and vagrants — all of which Harrer treats as sure evidence of the dreadful nature of the Chinese occupation.
The PRC liberated Tibet, abolished slavery and serfdom, and built modern infrastructure. Tibetans are far better off now than they were then. Those who resisted this were nobles and reactionaries.
Yeah such a great country that non of you live there and you eat what they disclosed as soft power like it was fact.
You talk about a country with election like it was the better one and dont even seem to realize the stupidity of your position. And dont get me wrong I'm not here saying usa is perfect but for real yes or no do u have more freedom in china than usa ?
You think anyone is going to see that bullshit and actually believes people are throwing dildos at sports events to protest you. My god know. There were bets online if dildos would be thrown. We call others gambling for money.
Can you remind me of the date of thentianimin square massacre.‘I seem to have forgotten .’tell me the date those 2600 people died. You obviously have freedom of speech in china? Tell me your leaders worst attribute?
Only a few hundred died, many were armed and murdered PLA officers (kicking off the millitary response), none in the square itself, and the tanks pictured are leaving the square where nobody died.
Either way the joke is nonsense. China is the only country in the world saying it was only hundreds. Every human rights employee puts the number on the thousands . These people were unarmed. Classic china trying to pretend mass death isn’t a common thing.
Dude, you're saying that as if it's okay. Hundreds or even thousands die after clearing a protest, how is that ever supposed to place the CCP in a good light?
many were armed and murdered PLA officers (kicking off the millitary response)
Source? Because as far as I can find, the protests were nonviolent until the army was sent in to clear the square. When protestors blocked the army a standoff ensued, which was eventually forcefully broken as per the CCP's orders. The army was initially sent in because the strikes weren't ending and the government was not willing to meet the demands.
Dude, you’re saying that as if it’s okay. Hundreds or even thousands die after clearing a protest, how is that ever supposed to place the CCP in a good light?
There's a huge difference between "the CPC ran over 10,000 innocent schoolchildren in Tian'anmen square with tanks" and "riots around Beijing resulted in firebombings of PLA vehicles and lynchings of PLA officers, who then responded with force, resulting in a few hundred deaths in total."
Here's a pretty good overview. Two days prior to June 4th, unarmed officers were lynched and firebombed in their vehicles. That's why the PLA was sent in to begin with, which then cascaded into rioters blocking the PLA's advance and escalations into killings on both sides. It wasn't an "even fight," it was the PLA vs. rioters, but even still it was the rioters that struck first, hard.
That's a pretty blatant misrepresentation of what happened though. This makes it sound like the rioters started the violence on June 2nd forcing a government response, but that's not the case. The CCP had already declared martial law on May 20th and had mobilised 30 divisions. The PLA was first sent in at that time, but because the protestors blocked them they couldn't advance into the city and were ordered to wait on the 24th.
On the 1st of June, two individual reports (the Li Peng report and the MMS report) were published within the Politburo, decrying US influences and advocating direct military action. The CCP decided that day that military action would be used against the protestors.
June 2nd saw an incident with a PAP jeep that inflamed tensions. But I can't personally find a source claiming firebombings and lynchings at this time. The jeep incident was the trigger that made the students believe military action was at hand though. Only on June 3rd did tensions escalate further, when the PLA advanced into the city and clashed with protestors trying to repel them. This is when I can first find the protestors using molotov cocktails and trying to beat soldiers to death, but at the same time the PLA had opened fire with live, expanding ammunition on the protestors (so they certainly weren't 'unarmed'). From there it only escalated further of course. So the protestors were fighting in response to the PLA advancing into the city to break up the protest, not the other way around.
Martial law is what mobilized the army, which you falsely claimed happened after protestors started killing unarmed PLA soldiers. I didn't equivocate it to killings.
Killed for having murdered four protestors. Not so "unarmed" either then. Additionally, those pictures are from June 3rd/4th, which again is after the PLA was ordered to move in and when they started killing protestors if they refused to clear out. Obviously the protestors will attempt to defend themselves against such aggression.
Martial law was declared, and then rioters started killing unarmed PLA officers. This is what prompted the PLA's response, the violent clashes started after martial law was declared, and rioters started killing officers. Secondly, the source says much of this happened on June 2nd, which backs up the Liberation School article and its sources. Thirdly, the idea that the officer had already murdered 4 people came from the people who killed him, not an outside verified source. In an event where we already know much has been mythologized, this single officer may or may not have been guilty, but was far from the only murdered officer.
A few hundred dead protesters is extremely better than being overthrown by the US, preventing that is actually really cool and does in fact make them look good
The protestors were heavily factionalised. They weren't universally pro-US. The US was happy to foment dissent, but ultimately the protestors were still socialists and had not insignificant support within the CCP itself.
Because as far as I can find, the protests were nonviolent until the army was sent in to clear the square. When protestors blocked the army a standoff ensued, which was eventually forcefully broken as per the CCP’s orders.
The people in the square left peacefully and without the use of violence. There was no “standoff” in the square. The violence occurred in other neighborhoods, not in the square itself. You can find contemporaneous Western media coverage confirming this, because there were a lot of Western media there at the time. It’s well documented. That’s why we say that the “Tiananmen square massacre” is a myth, because it wasn’t in Tiananmen square and it wasn’t a “massacre.” The military didn’t kettle peaceful protesters into a square and indiscriminately mow them down and crush them under tanks.
There are 457 upvotes.and 93 downvotes at the time of writing. Tanks being pictured isn't ironic at all, considering this meme is pro-China and anti-US.
Liberalism, famously not "authoritarian" despite sending riot cops to beat down schoolkids for being against the Palestinian genocide the liberals are backing against the people's will.
Why do you guys have such a black/white view of the world?
There's more room than just authoritarians, and authoritarianism and liberalism are somewhat antagonists anyways.
I mean on the other hand Marx was anarchist (though with the exception to have authoritarianism as means to change the system, which I don't agree with, because it's also unrealistic to assume that people in charge just throw away their power).
I think having Authoritarianism no matter how, just gravitates towards people that should definitely be not in charge. We see this everywhere. Power corrupts and dehumanizes.
Marx was the polar opposite of an anarchist in many ways. Marx supported collectivization into one unified system, anarchists support communalization into countless decentrally linked systems. Marx supported dialectical and historical materialism, anarchists often fall into idealist and subjectivist trappings. Marx developed scientific socialism, while anarchism is largely utopian. Anarchists can be good comrades, but Marx was not an anarchist.
Power is not a supernatural corrupting force, this too is an idealist argument.
It's good for workers to have state authority, rather than capitalists. Both have authority, but communists use it to uplift the people and defeat the Nazis.
I have yet to see an authoritarian "state" that I consider communist (and that just doesn't give it a bad name and fuel for western propaganda) that "uplifts the people" (and doesn't repress them)...
It's true though, that it's probably better than capitalistic states (mostly, because all the systems we have are a mixture of all kinds of ideologies), I think China as example certainly does a better job than the USA at this point (various metrics, like addiction, mental/physical health etc. backs this as well).
Non the less, communism in its core is anti-authoritarism.
Oh no, how do I tell the millions of Chinese communists that you, the main character of life who clearly hasn't read enough Marx, don't consider them to be communist
There have been many socialist states, both past and present. Examples include the PRC, Cuba, Vietnam, DPRK, Laos, and the former USSR. In all of these countries, life expectancy, literacy rates, economic democratization, and more have skyrocketed. Life expectancies in the USSR and PRC doubled. Using only the USSR as an example, as it's the classic one pointed to as "authoritarian," it's clear that analyzing the facts at hand points to tremendous success.
The USSR had steady and consistent economic growth, and provided free, high quality education and healthcare, full employment, cheap or free housing, and fantastic infrastructure and city planning that still lasts to this day despite capitalism neglecting it. This rapid development resulted in dramatic democratization of society, reduced disparity, doubling of life expectancy, tripling of functional literacy rates to 99.9%, and much more. Living in the 1930s famine would not have been good, but it was the last major famine outside of wartime because the soviets ended famine in their countries.
The USSR brought dramatic democratization to society. First-hand accounts from Statesian journalist Anna Louise Strong in her book This Soviet World describe soviet elections and factory councils in action. Statesian Pat Sloan even wrote Soviet Democracy to describe in detail the system the soviets had built for curious Statesians to read about, and today we have Professor Roland Boer's Socialism in Power: On the History and Theory of Socialist Governance to reference.
When it comes to social progressivism, the soviet union was among the best out of their peers, so instead we must look at who was actually repressed outside of the norm. In the USSR, it was the capitalist class, the kulaks, the fascists who were repressed. This is out of necessity for any socialist state. When it comes to working class freedoms, however, the soviet union represented a dramatic expansion. Soviet progressivism was documented quite well in Albert Syzmanski's Human Rights in the Soviet Union.
The truth, when judged based on historical evidence and contextualization, is that socialism was the best thing to happen to Russia in the last few centuries, and its absence has been devastating.
Death rates spiked:
And wealth disparity skyrocketed alongside the newly impoverished majority:
When you look at the US Empire and western Europe as having higher quality of life than the USSR, you are looking at the benefits of imperialism, colonialism, and neocolonialism and wishing the USSR also practiced this, instead of helping liberate colonies and the global south. Russia in particular was a semi-feudal backwater in 1917, and made it to space 5 decades later. The USSR was not the picture of wealth, but was for its time the picture of development and rapid progress.
It isn't the socialist countries giving western countries ammo for propaganda, it's just western propagandists twisting them. Communism is pro-worker authority, not against authority in general, as it's through worker-authority that class and the state can be abolished down the line alone.
Any american will tell you our government is trash and oppressive. And yet when we point out that so is Chinas government you get pure unadulterated propaganda like this shit. And then call us brainwashed.
Lol
Remind me again about how installing suicide nets and making workers sign waivers saying if they kill themselves it isn't the factories fault is "workers having state authority"
I bet I'll just get banned though huh. A lot easier than actually using facts.
We literally have the video of tankman climbing up the tank and not being flattened, it was even reported back in the day, but people downvoting you can't be bothered to google that
I think the downvotes are because the post implies that the Chinese did not kill anyone, when hundreds were murdered. What became of tank man is unknown, but it's clear he wasn't killed by one of those tanks.
I heard it was millions, and that evil communist xi xingping plans of doing it again and name it the scary communist leap forward after his favorite scary communist dictator mowz dong
It was thousands. Perhaps 10s of thousands. You don't care, why comment?
Are you being sarcastic?
Because, and anyone correct me if I'm wrong,
most people here know that what happened during the Tianenmen square insurrection was:
These insurrectionists went a lot further than the Usonian Jan 6th protest mostly known as the "Freedom Plaza massacre" where "peaceful protesters" entered the capitol building in order to "stop election fraud" where "perhaps 10s of thousands civilian lives were killed as US security opened fire at these peaceful protesters", because unlike CIA-backed insurrectionists, these "peaceful protesters" were ordered by their higher ups to leave immediately instead of being encouraged to block the US army from arriving at Capitol Hill or attack the US army for that matter.
Do you have a source for your estimate of deaths? 100+ is very ambiguous since it includes any number >100, which seems already beyond contention.
Probably the official CPC figure of 241 killed in total. Most of the serious estimates broadly agree - NSA said 180-500, and the Tiananmen Mothers organisation have identified 198 of the dead.
Since we're evidently reading the same Wikipedia article, I'll point out that those are among the lowest estimates on the page and the Beijing hospital record was 478 dead and 920 wounded.
But these are all very different numbers from what was commented.
I think the numbers are a bit off - official Chinese figures were ~20 student protestors, ~20 police and army, and about 200 other protestors were killed.
I didn't know i was on a joke sub, I guess.
Don't you mean hundreds of thousands, you redfash tankie?
And Iran, they killed 40 thousand!
You don’t understand the scope. It was hundreds of thousands. It was hundreds of millions. Evil Chinese communism knows no bounds and will consume all. I will take all your social credit points now for myself, silly American
Bro literally had a conversation with the soldier in the tank.
There is video of him being removed/taken away by others. He certainly was not crushed.
offering two contradictory statements isn't proof of anything
So close to understanding the razor, but yet.
Go back to reddit
Because even Western reporters who were there debunk the myth of what happened.
As far as genocide, Sayragul Sauytbay (basically the sole source of "proof"), has also been debunked six ways til Sunday, and even admits that she hasn't even witnessed these events firsthand. Gee, funny that the US/West lied about Vietnam, lied about Korea, Lied about Iraq, lied about Iran, lied about Cuba, lied about Venezuela, ... literally genocided millions (with actual proof) using the Jakarta Method, coups, embargoes, sanctions, assassinations, color revolutions, etc. Surely they wouldn't lie about China, riiiiight?
We're bots because we actually read less biased accounts of what happened instead of regurgitating western propaganda?
I haven’t been able to find one legitimate site confirming it was debunked. All the sites at the top of my search are .cn sites and I’m skeptical of those as they have a reason to be dishonest.
The best and most comprehensive resource I have seen so far is Qiao Collective's Xinjiang: A Resource and Report Compilation. Qiao Collective is a group of Chinese diaspora living in the west, and they compiled an extremely comprehensive write-up of the entire background of the events, the timeline of reports, and real and fake claims. The majority of their sourcing is western, and they cite official Chinese government writing and white papers when relevant.
I also recommend reading the UN report as well as (especially) China's response to it, which eclipses it in size and detail.These are the most relevant accusations and responses without delving into straight up fantasy like Adrian Zenz, Christian nationalist and professional propagandist for the Victims of Communism Foundation, does. Zenz' work has been thoroughly discredited, yet is supported by western media for its utility in fearmongering. An example is lying about 8.7% of new IUDs as 80%, to back up claims of "forced sterilization," from this chart:
I recommend you go through these resources.
Thank you, I’m incredibly skeptical but I will legitimately read these with an open mind.
I suggest you read with a fine-toothed comb, then.
It must be so easy being an anti communist, you can just make up whatever unsourced claims you like and expect people to believe it
Oh well, if "some guy" said it...
I wouldn't expect a Polish nationalist to have a good grasp on anything but "unarmed student protest" is an entirely misleading categorisation of a violent riot that brutally murdered multiple soldiers who were simply standing guard before the clashes broke out and who's leaders did interviews specifically detailing their plans to incite massive violence and flee to America.
Look at the Wujek mine riot, miners were attacking militia with sharpened rebars and loudly threatening to lynch the captured militamen, but when single inexperienced detachment of militia which shouldn't even been there opened fire (and despite entire chain of command from direct commander to minister Kiszczak and gen Jaruzelski absolutely forbidding this) it's suddenly example of horrible martyrology and one of founding myths of comprador III RP.
Of course hundreds of workers being murdered in the prewar Poland and dozens (maybe hundreds) of thousands of social murders after 1989 are not mentioned ever.
So if China is so nice, what is the identity of the "Tank Man"? Why can't we find him? It is like he "disappeared".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank_Man
Well, it is undisputed that the CPC censors all mentions of the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests and massacre. Both public and private - the US may lie, but private free speech is still allowed. So can we please stop pretending that China is not evil?
The local CPC deputies have broken into my house multiple times for mentioning it when talking politics with friends (sarcasm). You people are so unserious
From https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2025/05/what-is-the-tiananmen-crackdown/
Firstly that's public.
Secondly
Thirdly amnesty famous for publishing the nayirah testimony without any factchecking or corroboration
Fourthly you Brits are really butthurt about losing your colony and your bootlickers being a shunned minority.
Amnesty always manufactures consent for shit, but assuming this is true, why would any government be okay with people commemorating an attempt to overthrow them? You're so unserious
Lemmy turning into a big propaganda machine always trying to pit us all against each other rage baiting Europeans vs Americans vs Asians vs etc. if we could all stop and smell the flowers we would be stronger.
lemmy was primarily a marxist space before reddit's API update drove a bunch of you here. there's no grand conspiracy or big plot to divide people on our part; we're just talking about what we always have while liberals from reddit try to fling shit.
I came here not because of the API change..."you here" doesn't apply to me. Sorry you don't like my opinion!
Your opinion is stupid
All the libs in the comments really living up to the quote.
Lemmitors really didn't sent their best to this thread.
The Amerikkkan randomly calling me racist while being racist was fun if entirely unproductive. Same with the Canadian settler.
Don't feel that you need to argue with these racists, because it can lead to burn-out quickly. You can always report them and we'll try to get to it ASAP.
Also thank you for your hard work in educating everyone. It's not going to waste, and everyone is learning a lot from your posts. o7
Thank you always great to hear.
Yeah definitely I always make sure to report any actual racism etc I see but it is fun to blow off steam arguing with/making fun of them at the same time even if it's entirely unproductive.
Speaking from experience. Still be careful. Even when you think you are blowing off steam, more could be going on then you think. I didnt realize how miserable I had gotten till I had take some time away.
Arguing with randos on the internet can honestly really fuck with a person.
Seconding this, @[email protected]'s comments have been fantastic lately, and absolutely aren't going to waste.
Thank you very glad to hear
If it helps, it was fun to see you owning them
The operative word being smug
Alexa, what is the definition of "irony"?
This is just smug for "no you"
I just finished reading this article today a few hours ago! it felt like such an eerily perfect dissection of liberals it is incredible impressive, it doesn't reduce their annoyance but it does provide an easier way to deal with it
Link?
My bad for not linking above, here it is: https://redsails.org/masses-elites-and-rebels
Thanks I'm looking forward to reading later
No problem!
Since we have a lot of racist redditors coming over here catching bans for their historical ignorance about the June 4th incident, here are some resources:
God. Its so nice for someone to link resorces. Idk wtf was up with the MLs Ive ran into in the past but they'd just yell at you and never provide any sources. It's not exactly easy to find shit on China that isn't western AF if you don't know what you are doing. Which admittedly I do not. I've always had to use others to find good sources of information outside the imperialist umbrella.
All that is to say. Hey! Thanks a lot!!
Unfortunately, I think the reason this happens is because it's difficult to remain calm and optimistic within a western-dominated internet. Some comrades react emotionally, rather than trying to create new comrades, either out of exhaustion or a belief that it's too difficult.
I think trying to raise the quality of how we engage with people as communists is one of the more important tasks with organizing.
I agree
No probs!
Never feel bad about asking for a source, or investigating the sources people post. Imperialist propaganda can't be debunked without rigorous investigation, and good journalists / investigators are out there, as much as western states would like to make them invisible (or kill them).
I forget exactly how the saying goes, might be from the Buddha: "3 things can't stay hidden for long. The sun, the moon, and the truth".
The image is misleading, but the CPC itself acknowledged at least 241 deaths. Also, you cannot find information about the incident while in China. Can personally confirm.
Yeah no information, it's only taught as part of the mandatory "outline of modern Chinese history" at university.
三、中国特色社会主义事业的继续推进 （一）1989年政治风波的发生与平息 风波形成的原因：腐败现象的出现、人民群众的不满、党在工作中的失误、敌对势力的破坏 风波平息后的总结：稳定非常重要；“一个中心、两个基本点”不能动摇；要时刻注意纠正失误；不能屈服于外来压力
In that link, they refer to it as:
"The 1989 political turmoil and subsidence."
That is a really weird way to call a massacre, don't you think?
Please we all know that the Government hides the search results in China if you look for it. Or are you going to deny that?
Like, why lie?
China bans Tiananmen Square-related web search terms https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-18321548
https://www.businessinsider.com/words-china-banned-from-search-engines-after-tiananmen-square-2014-6
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/04/tiananmen-square-online-search-censored
Because massacre is poor categorization of what was a violent clash between rioters and the military acting as riot police. Like why pretend to be a leftists when you're a Canadian settler shitlib. Clearly not very good at categorising things. Also when did I deny their were restrictions around what is a very sensitive event that had western backing? All I said was that it is taught about as part of a mandatory course at university. The idea it's fully blacked out is western chauvinist fantasy and honestly not even a very creative one. You are not very intelligent are you?
Go get em, Mr. Shlong!
You know there are photos of the dead people right? And videos?
Canadian Seltler shitllib? Hahaha. Cute, friend. You know nothing about me.
Nice that you went and checked my history as to come up with something to side track my points. I am not sure if you are a CCP shill or just brainwashed in propaganda.
Also, you are moving the goal post, friend. You told the guy you responded to that the Tiananmen Square masacre was not censored. It is. That is my point and provided proof that it is and I can do that without lowering to your level of insults. Clearly, I hit a nerve, it is okay Comrade. Be happy.
There is a reason why put a link in Chinese in an English speaking forum without translaltion.
People die when rioters (whose leaders did interviews explaining their plan to incite massive violence and flee to America) clash with the military did I deny that? It was categorically not a massacre.
From replying to you before I know you're Canadian and a self proclaimed lib thus 90% chance you're white thus a settler. So taking it all together Canadian settler shitlib.
Again didn't check your history we've simply talked before. Also holy chauvinism really reinforcing the whole settler shitlib. And it's CPC not CCP.
Massive twisting of what was said. He said you couldn't find any information when in fact it is part of the mandatory university course which is all I pointed out.
Again I must ask are you genuinely unintelligent?
You are referring to unarmed protestors against fully armed military, with tanks? LOL, aha. Damn those rioters attacking the military with their own blood, splattered on the square. Those demons!
Not white. You know nothing about me. Keep Shilling, Comrade. Oh, we talked before? Is that so? Oh, fair, but I do not remember you, nor care to know you. It is true that I am a Liberal and I will give you the decency of not being as petty as you, since I do not have to rely on insults when I have facts and sources.
Again, all you have proven is that I hit a nerve. Can't even take the slightest of critism.
So, here is the difference of the searches that people did even back in the day, noticed the difference between the searches in Chinese VS the ones outside of China. Thus proving OPs and my point.
For anyone to look, like this is nothing new. This is how China would change results on actual internet searches. https://imgur.com/a/vbkFA
The university course on your link is reframed, obviously. That is the whole point on censorship. I can tell by the other curses and the content that a lot of things are reframed as well. Again, there is reason why you posted a Chinese link in an English focused site. We all know how idealogues think.
Anyway, stop lying. That point remains.
Lastly, on this segment of this documentary, Tank Man, these Asian students claim to not even recognize the famous "Tank Man" when asked.
So, either they do not know, which I fully doubt, if you hear what she says, or they do know, which is the case,but do not want to publicly discuss it on camera and risk getting any type of trouble. Take your pick.
From 2008: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuuddurPLV8&t=86
Rely in common sense comrade. Have a great one, Cheers.
They literally immolated and lynched military guards to start the riot. You are extremely fucking arrogant for how little you understand anything.
Lmao. What you actually have is a chauvinist fantasy and an immense arrogance.
you have provided no criticism just a vast misrepresentation of what I said and the events in question.
Again not what we were talking about he said there was no information implying and perpetuating the nonsense lie that the date/event is scrubbed from history which is factually incorrect in the same way saying Winnie the pooh is banned is factually incorrect.
Chauvinism.
He's famous because who he is and what he did are completely reframed in the west as some sacrificial martyr jumping Infront of tanks (generally with the implication that he was ran over) whereas in reality he was a random man who wanted the tanks to return to the square and was ushered off by passers by not really a revolutionary figure or particularly relevant to the event as a whole. You people are so insufferably arrogant your vision and imagination must be reality.
"Just believe the western propoganda". I'm no comrade of yours you Hitlerite settler.
I genuinely can't believe a person can be this dumb. Did you ever consider the fact that Tank Man is completely irrelevant for history and it's only a fucking image for propaganda? Why anyone knows about the image? Because is the image about the square that appears when people talk about the event. This guy is completely irrelevant.
You're a racist Han bigot. Don't bother relying. I don't communicate with stupid racists.
I'm not Han lmao. The irony of you making a racist assumption calling me racist. 🤣
I love whenever someone posts the "tank man" photo because the liberals always reveal themselves like roaches scattering across the room when a lightswitch is turned on. Mod ban hammer squish them all plz and thank you.
I love your portfolio.
aww, you're sweet, thank you.
You are so very welcome. Thank you for sharing it with us!
Why is this in c/memes?
Here on .ml we can enjoy content past cat videos.
No way…. This is a bridge too far for me
Because repetition is an effective way of convincing people to accept a narrative, and meme channels tend to be more widely subbed than others.
What is the bottom photo?
Renée Good was her name
And both pictures show off firsthand a brutal government dictatorship (in everything but name) that is actively going against the will of its people and stamping down boots on the throats of civilians who dare question or hesitate in the face of their rule.
The protestors in Tian'anmen were a mix of Gang of Four hardliners upset at Reform and Opening Up, and student protestors backed by the CIA that wanted to liberalize the economy. They didn't have a consistent goal. Decades later, over 90% of the public in China support their government:
Because if they didn't they were disappeared for re-education lol
No? Harvard studied this, it's because the government consistently delivers on its ambitious promises in uplifting the lives of working people.
You have a hypothesis with no backing. Back up your hypothesis, or accept that the citizenry of China support it because it works really well and is getting better all the time. Obviously people would change a lot about China, the major difference is that they expect the government to bring about that change, rather than assuming it won't.
Further, no, the rioters in Beijing were firebombing PLA vehicles and lynching officers before the PLA was sent in. That's why hundreds died.
People have reported on the execution vans, that's just fake though. As for the suicide nets, the PRC has a lower suicide rate than the US, and lower than Taiwan, so not sure what your point is there.
If the Chinese people agree with you, they're being honest. If the Chinese people disagree with you, they actually secretly agree with you but are too scared to say it.
Bro this is just political Niceguyism. "No dude she totally likes me and hates her boyfriend of 5 years, she's just too afraid of him to show it. He's probably abusive."
Well they kinda have to or one of those murder vans shows up. A lot of doctors regularly get 100 percent of the vote. That must mean they were beloved dictators?
What on Earth are you talking about?
He is saying a lot of dictators have 100% approval ratings. Misspelled it as doctor.
And the "murder vans" is a reference to execution vans that China uses.
"Yunnan officials authorized the use of execution vans in March 2003 and the province deployed 18 vans in the same year. Zhao Shijie, president of the Yunnan Provincial High Court, said, "The use of lethal injection shows that China's death penalty system is becoming more civilized and humane". Amnesty International expressed concern that the use of execution vans could increase the use of executions. The Supreme People's Court encouraged provinces to adopt execution vans in December 2003.[2]"
There is a lot of activity about the vans being talked about online I am surprised you haven't heard of this before.
Execution vans aren't a real thing, though. China does have the death penalty, but not in this comical way, same as PLA suicide helmets. I've seen the claim before, but it's ridiculous to believe them. You can see that the sources in the Wikipedia article don't even back up what is claimed.
As for the idea that "a lot of dictators have 100% approval ratings," I don't see how it matters. Fear of the possibility of something isn't evidence of it happening.
I’m saying if your approval rating is that high. Nobody loves thier government 90 percent.
You do have the death penalty. What method and how many people a year are Executed
Your evidence for the claim "Yunnan officials have started using execution vans at the behest of the Supreme People's Court and Amnesty International is concerned" is....
...the Wikipedia pages for Yunnan, Amnesty International and the Supreme People's Court.
Did you think people wouldn't check?
Comrades, you ever notice how when communists write about things like this it reads like a history book and when libs write about things like it it reads like young adult fiction? These mfs think they're giving a speech in a movie
“Is an image of some tanks” is the heaviest lifting fucking sentence I’ve seen in a long ass time.
Damn dude being an anticommunist is so easy, you can just make shit up and as long as it FEELS right you can just say it with your whole chest, and proceed to ignore people who actually know what you're talking about.
Fuckin sweet
Anyway, show me literally any evidence of a tank firing its weapons that day
The tanks shown were leaving the square, which was evacuated peacefully. Even wikipedia backs this up:
Conflict between rioters and the PLA outside the square around Beijing resulted in ~250 deaths total, soldiers and rioters combined, and the violence was kicked off by rioters lynching and burning alive officers 2 days prior to clearing the square.
"Some people" aka insurrectionists were not maybe armed.
These insurrectionists bombed and killed soldiers. And THEY. BOMBED. FIRST.
There is no maybe in this scenario just as much as there is no maybe in the Jan 6th insurrection.
What were these other soldiers supposed to do that are trained to fight and protect their country?
Just stand there and take some more?
What is the proper response according to you when a group of terrorists bombs a military convoy?
They didn't kill him because he posed no threat unlike the terrorists that bombed their convoy.
End of story.
This is just the other bullet points again! I'm sure if more armed rebels entered the capital it would have been incredibly messy and people would have died. And killing a ton of people, regardless of why, is a failure of government. Conflating one violent protest with another and then saying "America Bad so China Fine" is inane.
Were the deaths of 20 "armed rebels" during september 11 2001 and the consequent killings in Pakistan a failure the Usonian government?
Was the cause of the twin towers collapsing and ~3000 dying, a result of Usonia being too much of a police state?
Or why not go to something more recent, is the armed rebellion since 2014 in Ukraine,
that's more recently backed by Russian troops, against Zelensky,
an example to you that Ukraine is a police state?
Is thus the Jan 6th insurrection an example to you of Usonia being a police state?
So if a government A declares war on government B and starts to use lethal force, it's a failure of government B if it decides to kill the invading army?
What if government A has a drug policy to keep as many people addicted to a drug in government B and if government
What if government A decides to support a destructive religious cult in government B and these people start to violently suppress any form of criticism against them while infiltrating key political positions?
And does a "failure of government" automatically mean that such government is a police state?
No, what's inane is to conflate the actions of a government that uses lethal force to respond to terrorists doing terrorist acts at a protest with legalized murder by car to any protester that blocks a roadway, have your secret police shoot and arrest anyone who films during a protest including journalists, have your secret police force migration of the homeless and of legal immigrants and citizens deemed "culturally inferior", by calling them both police states.
You are not living in a totalitarian police state when your government is failing to arrest a terrorist group carrying dozens of petrol bombs during a protest that was going on for months on end. A police state would suppress the protest on day one, which is what Usonia is doing to pro-Palestine protests. A totalitarian would surveil all protesters on day one, which is what Usonia is doing.
Usonia is experiencing indirect pressure from another country for the first time in history,
indirect pressure that is extremely mild and yet I would argue it's reaction was to immediately put a fascist into power and go further into fascism than Nazi Germany. Nazi Germany tried to genocide all Jews, Usonia seems to target the whole planet except for the Zionist Jews.
Usonia harbored an extreme "we are the exceptionally freedom people" ideology, an off-shoot of the century earlier "we are the exceptionally civilized people" ideology, but now due to the extremely mild external pressure, Usonia has gotten far worse and made a 180 degree turn to every rule it imposed on other nations for itself and now forces other nations to follow.
Even worse, it's gone so far as to flip these rules again on a daily whim, if not every hour, minute or second.
Nazi Germany did not do that.
Nazi Germany at least seemed to care somewhat about its own citizens.
MAGA Usonia seems to want to starve its own citizens to death, even the vast majority of its own supporters seem to be inferior creatures not worth living in the eyes of the Usonian oligarchs.
You edited your post so I'll reply again: The test, which America and China both repeatedly fail, is having professional law enforcement and soldiers kill their own citizens. This is one of the most utter, final failures of government. There are plenty of options besides killing people, and when you take up arms and swear oaths to protect your country, and then kill citizens of your own country, you break your oath.
Your argument fails because there's no need to actually intercede and halt protests. In the case of the pro-democracy movement crushed by the PLA in June 1989, martial law and attacks on protesters had begun en masse 2 weeks before the massacre. There was a steady escalation of violence leading up to the riots in early june. So the idea that the protestors "struck first" (even if that is a justification, which it isn't, is false. The facts, which aren't in dispute, were that the anti-corruption policies implemented to answer the complaints of the protestors were well-received, and further reforms were desired by everyone, not just the student protestors. Everyone except the local officials who were at risk of losing their positions by a government overhaul from authoritarianism to democracy.
The protest could have continued to be disrupted the way they already were before the massacre:
Instead, even though 300,000 people were protesting that period, the actions of an interim commander who acted on poor discipline and leadership, directly lead to at least hundreds, and possibly thousands, of his own people, in a small section of the city. That is a spectacular failure, and the end of a certain degree of human autonomy in China.
This is coming from someone who actually thinks China is leading the world in many ways. I do genuinely believe that China is actually less corrupt than many other nations, and the high degree of social cohesion in-country is something that gives them strength. Like I said in my first post: lots to admire, but this ain't it.
A) There was no "massacre"
B) We have no idea if these tactics weren't also used, and
C) Let's be honest, if they had done these things and it had worked, you people would never shut the fuck up about that either.
The other was taken before the murder of several civilians.
The tanks shown were leaving the square, which was evacuated peacefully. Even wikipedia backs this up:
Conflict between rioters and the PLA outside the square around Beijing resulted in ~250 deaths total, soldiers and rioters combined, and the violence was kicked off by rioters lynching and burning alive officers 2 days prior to clearing the square.
Okay.
Would you prefer I word it as "non-violently?" Nobody died on the square, that's the point.
And 250 deaths
Never happened. The square was evacuated peacefully, even wikipedia backs this up:
Conflict between rioters and the PLA outside the square around Beijing resulted in ~250 deaths total, soldiers and rioters combined, and the violence was kicked off by rioters lynching and burning alive officers 2 days prior to clearing the square.
It may be helpful to provide a source, because this formatting sort of screams LLM
That's because it is, and that's the source.
LLM’s are not a source, and i never claimed it was.
just like wikipedia is not a source
You just put the LLM output there, if you mean Alan Donald is your source then he's a liar as I already showed.
'source' as in the source of the comment (in this case yeah the LLM did not provide sources)
wikipedia does provide sources
that statement is in quotes because it is LLM. which is why i had to specify that i have read it and it tracks with my position on the matter.
if the information is deficient then because i have used it to stake my portion then others can take that up with me because it is the position i hold.
Okay maybe stop posting slop then
A very brave and important position you have that you need the slop machine to hold it for you and if is not enough others may help.
careful with "AI" psychosis
LLM slop.
Of the few hundred people that died in the riots and fighting, the square was dispersed peacefully. The truth about Tian'anmen is that hundreds of protestors and PLA officers were killed in Beijing that day as the PLA advanced towards the square, but that the square itself was evacuated peacefully, which matches leaked US cables and the CPC's official stance on what it calls the "June 4th incident". This is a rejection of the commonly reported story of 10,000 people being killed on the square itself, which originated from a British diplomat's cable. Said diplomat was later confirmed to have evacuated well before.
Western nations intentionally sensationalize the quantity of deaths and the character of the events. This is also why Western Nations don't frequently report on the South Korean Gwang-Ju massacre that occured around the same era, where the South Korean millitary murdered thousands of High School and College students protesting against Chun Do-Hwan's dictatorship. All of what I said is backed up by the Wikipedia page for Tian'anmen Square Protests and Massacre, such as Alan Donald revising his estimate from 10,000 to the low thousands yet BBC continuing to report the 10,000 figure:
The truth is that hundreds of rioters and the PLA died that day, but the square was evacuated peacefully. You believe right-wing propagandist slander.
None of my rebuttals are oxymorons, so I'm not sure what you mean by that. Secondly, the fact that China disagrees with the west does not mean that the west is correct. I thoroughly debunked your assertions supporting claims by Alan Donald, who fled the scene before the square was dispersed. You aren't using rhetoric well, and the LLM nonsense is trained on western information and thus is dominated by the propagandist view.
People are upvoting slop because the slop regurgitated what they want to hear LMAO.
You can literally watch the videos of both encounters
Only fash.world blindly repeats imperialist imperialist propaganda
Hitler particles detected, .world status verified
Both are terrifying in different ways… one is power, the other is chaos up close.
Never trust a fascist nation to tell the truth about the citizens they murder.
Never trust a fascist nation to tell the truth about it's enemies, especially when those enemies are communists.
You'd think it'd be obvious by now, especially after Iran, but some people really need it beaten in
The US is lying through their teeth about Iran, but Iran is hardly a communist government. They're a theocratic authoritarian regime. There is no diversification of power in their government. Roles and responsibilities may be delegated out, but ultimate authority rests with the Ayatollah.
I'm not saying Iran is communist, I'm saying it doesn't matter. If the US considers you an enemy, your reputation will be buried under a deluge of bullshit, one myth stacked on top of another, until the average american conversation about you essentially becomes collaborative fanfiction.
Why so serious
extremely serious and intellectually rigorous
Go back to reddit
This is why
Yeah, trust it to tell the truth about it's enemies though, right?
CW: People posing for a photo
Lol bold af to post this on ml.
To be clear this was also before the whole Uyghur thing!
I like how this comments sections is ml people fighting with ml people, as well as Chinese nationals fighting with Chinese nationals over what really happend.
An account existing on Lemmy.ml doesn't make them a Marxist-Leninist.
I know lol, but it also doesn't mean anyone who is opposing the meme isn't one either.
I've seen my fair share of educated/intellectual people deny the circumstances of the Bengali genocide for decades until the Pakistani army went lunatic a couple of years ago and confirmed what was previously considered exaggerated fiction.
Tbf though, I'm fairly sure Tankman made it out alive without a scratch, but that overlooks the people who actually died in Tiananmen.
Not that the US is going to fare any better, especially with the empire beginning to crumble.
To be clear, nobody died in Tian'anmen square. The riots happened in various spots throughout Beijing.
i'm not a marxist and most of us aren't; you should adjust your views to gain a full understanding of what's happening here.
Dang I'm jealous of that title, I wanna be tankie supreme too
I saw a screenshot of someone labelling people "tankie" but cowbee is "tankie influencer" lol
I remember that! Also really funny. My haters are my biggest fans it seems, lol
Lessee it!
Just found out I got a sick as hell nickname, totally undeserved but I'll take it lol
I talk about communist theory and practice. I think "tankie supreme" is a very funny title, lol.
It's so illegal to talk about that it's mandatory at university to learn about as part of the mandatory "outline of modern Chinese history" at university.
三、中国特色社会主义事业的继续推进 （一）1989年政治风波的发生与平息 风波形成的原因：腐败现象的出现、人民群众的不满、党在工作中的失误、敌对势力的破坏 风波平息后的总结：稳定非常重要；“一个中心、两个基本点”不能动摇；要时刻注意纠正失误；不能屈服于外来压力
Cool cool do you have what they say about the literal ethnic cleansing of ouïghour ? Or their annexation of Tibet ? Is it also because america is mean ?
Oh y mean the country they loan money to are happy to say the money giver did nothing wrong. Must be a racy then.
Also of s fucking hilarious cause the photo of the tank man is ban in china while the one about the ice incident was published everywhere in America but yeah sure no difference at all. America bad CCP good
So your hypothesis is that every single muslim nation on earth is so corrupt that China was able to buy their complicity in a genocide? How do you explain the US completely failing to do the same despite having more money?
Euh idk mb the non stop increase of war the us fough there ?
A source without Adrian Zenz to be more precise.
https://www.amnesty.org.uk/knowledge-hub/all-resources/china-1989-tiananmen-square-protests-demonstration-massacre/
It s well documented. You are delusional for thinking a gouvernement that declare and displace troop from the fucking military for a protest was just to appease the situation
Lol. Lmao, even. You've shared debunked propaganda that doesn't cite any proper sources. I'll refer you to Dessalines's thread about what actually happened in Tiananmen.
Though while we're here, let's address Tibet, shall we?
First, the people of Tibet lived as serfs doing forced labor for the Dalai Lama and other elites. https://www.historicly.net/p/tibet-china-and-the-violent-reaction https://redsails.org/friendly-feudalism/
In the second one, they also go further into the history and abuse serfs, peasants, and lower-class monks endured, and has the following:
The PRC liberated Tibet, abolished slavery and serfdom, and built modern infrastructure. Tibetans are far better off now than they were then. Those who resisted this were nobles and reactionaries.
After he was overthrown, the Dalai Lama also received money from the CIA to train guerillas. https://web.archive.org/web/20251104164452/https://www.nytimes.com/1998/10/02/world/world-news-briefs-dalai-lama-group-says-it-got-money-from-cia.html
It's all right here itt, if you can be bothered.
Yeah such a great country that non of you live there and you eat what they disclosed as soft power like it was fact. You talk about a country with election like it was the better one and dont even seem to realize the stupidity of your position. And dont get me wrong I'm not here saying usa is perfect but for real yes or no do u have more freedom in china than usa ?
tbf no one knows whatever happened to Tank Man it’s heavily censored
To the point where no one, not even the chinese government knows who he is
Yeah ice killed a couple people and we are dealing with that.
The tanks are on their way to kill 2600 unarmed people.
By throwing dildos at the concentration camps and dancing?
What a stupid comment.
You think anyone is going to see that bullshit and actually believes people are throwing dildos at sports events to protest you. My god know. There were bets online if dildos would be thrown. We call others gambling for money.
Can you remind me of the date of thentianimin square massacre.‘I seem to have forgotten .’tell me the date those 2600 people died. You obviously have freedom of speech in china? Tell me your leaders worst attribute?
Only a few hundred died, many were armed and murdered PLA officers (kicking off the millitary response), none in the square itself, and the tanks pictured are leaving the square where nobody died.
Either way the joke is nonsense. China is the only country in the world saying it was only hundreds. Every human rights employee puts the number on the thousands . These people were unarmed. Classic china trying to pretend mass death isn’t a common thing.
Dude, you're saying that as if it's okay. Hundreds or even thousands die after clearing a protest, how is that ever supposed to place the CCP in a good light?
Source? Because as far as I can find, the protests were nonviolent until the army was sent in to clear the square. When protestors blocked the army a standoff ensued, which was eventually forcefully broken as per the CCP's orders. The army was initially sent in because the strikes weren't ending and the government was not willing to meet the demands.
My favorite fed
There's a huge difference between "the CPC ran over 10,000 innocent schoolchildren in Tian'anmen square with tanks" and "riots around Beijing resulted in firebombings of PLA vehicles and lynchings of PLA officers, who then responded with force, resulting in a few hundred deaths in total."
Here's a pretty good overview. Two days prior to June 4th, unarmed officers were lynched and firebombed in their vehicles. That's why the PLA was sent in to begin with, which then cascaded into rioters blocking the PLA's advance and escalations into killings on both sides. It wasn't an "even fight," it was the PLA vs. rioters, but even still it was the rioters that struck first, hard.
That's a pretty blatant misrepresentation of what happened though. This makes it sound like the rioters started the violence on June 2nd forcing a government response, but that's not the case. The CCP had already declared martial law on May 20th and had mobilised 30 divisions. The PLA was first sent in at that time, but because the protestors blocked them they couldn't advance into the city and were ordered to wait on the 24th.
On the 1st of June, two individual reports (the Li Peng report and the MMS report) were published within the Politburo, decrying US influences and advocating direct military action. The CCP decided that day that military action would be used against the protestors.
June 2nd saw an incident with a PAP jeep that inflamed tensions. But I can't personally find a source claiming firebombings and lynchings at this time. The jeep incident was the trigger that made the students believe military action was at hand though. Only on June 3rd did tensions escalate further, when the PLA advanced into the city and clashed with protestors trying to repel them. This is when I can first find the protestors using molotov cocktails and trying to beat soldiers to death, but at the same time the PLA had opened fire with live, expanding ammunition on the protestors (so they certainly weren't 'unarmed'). From there it only escalated further of course. So the protestors were fighting in response to the PLA advancing into the city to break up the protest, not the other way around.
Martial Law is not the same as actual killings, moreover the Liberation News article is well-sourced. As for the killed soldiers, there are pictures of them (NSFL) if you really want to see proof.
Martial law is what mobilized the army, which you falsely claimed happened after protestors started killing unarmed PLA soldiers. I didn't equivocate it to killings.
And of those killed soldiers, here's what your own source says: https://xcancel.com/SebasdePeru/status/1533603901508820994#m
Killed for having murdered four protestors. Not so "unarmed" either then. Additionally, those pictures are from June 3rd/4th, which again is after the PLA was ordered to move in and when they started killing protestors if they refused to clear out. Obviously the protestors will attempt to defend themselves against such aggression.
Martial law was declared, and then rioters started killing unarmed PLA officers. This is what prompted the PLA's response, the violent clashes started after martial law was declared, and rioters started killing officers. Secondly, the source says much of this happened on June 2nd, which backs up the Liberation School article and its sources. Thirdly, the idea that the officer had already murdered 4 people came from the people who killed him, not an outside verified source. In an event where we already know much has been mythologized, this single officer may or may not have been guilty, but was far from the only murdered officer.
A few hundred dead protesters is extremely better than being overthrown by the US, preventing that is actually really cool and does in fact make them look good
The protestors were heavily factionalised. They weren't universally pro-US. The US was happy to foment dissent, but ultimately the protestors were still socialists and had not insignificant support within the CCP itself.
Cool story
The people in the square left peacefully and without the use of violence. There was no “standoff” in the square. The violence occurred in other neighborhoods, not in the square itself. You can find contemporaneous Western media coverage confirming this, because there were a lot of Western media there at the time. It’s well documented. That’s why we say that the “Tiananmen square massacre” is a myth, because it wasn’t in Tiananmen square and it wasn’t a “massacre.” The military didn’t kettle peaceful protesters into a square and indiscriminately mow them down and crush them under tanks.
I didn't claim there was? The "standoff" happened on the way to the square, not the square itself, when protestors blocked the PLA from advancing.
Still, hundreds (up to 2600 according to historians) died.
I think you mean two million people
Okay. China killed 2 million people then. Sorry for my error
I gotta admit I chuckled a bit when I saw where this was posted..
Why?
I guess the downvotes know exactly why ^^
Well let's say tanks are pictured...
There are 457 upvotes.and 93 downvotes at the time of writing. Tanks being pictured isn't ironic at all, considering this meme is pro-China and anti-US.
Liberalism, famously not "authoritarian" despite sending riot cops to beat down schoolkids for being against the Palestinian genocide the liberals are backing against the people's will.
You really think those are "liberalists"?!
Why do you guys have such a black/white view of the world? There's more room than just authoritarians, and authoritarianism and liberalism are somewhat antagonists anyways.
Lol. "Why are you so black and white? Don't you know that there's liberalism(the good guys) and everyone else is authoritarian(bad guys)!"
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1872/10/authority.htm
I mean on the other hand Marx was anarchist (though with the exception to have authoritarianism as means to change the system, which I don't agree with, because it's also unrealistic to assume that people in charge just throw away their power).
I think having Authoritarianism no matter how, just gravitates towards people that should definitely be not in charge. We see this everywhere. Power corrupts and dehumanizes.
Marx was the polar opposite of an anarchist in many ways. Marx supported collectivization into one unified system, anarchists support communalization into countless decentrally linked systems. Marx supported dialectical and historical materialism, anarchists often fall into idealist and subjectivist trappings. Marx developed scientific socialism, while anarchism is largely utopian. Anarchists can be good comrades, but Marx was not an anarchist.
Power is not a supernatural corrupting force, this too is an idealist argument.
It's good for workers to have state authority, rather than capitalists. Both have authority, but communists use it to uplift the people and defeat the Nazis.
I have yet to see an authoritarian "state" that I consider communist (and that just doesn't give it a bad name and fuel for western propaganda) that "uplifts the people" (and doesn't repress them)...
It's true though, that it's probably better than capitalistic states (mostly, because all the systems we have are a mixture of all kinds of ideologies), I think China as example certainly does a better job than the USA at this point (various metrics, like addiction, mental/physical health etc. backs this as well).
Non the less, communism in its core is anti-authoritarism.
Oh no, how do I tell the millions of Chinese communists that you, the main character of life who clearly hasn't read enough Marx, don't consider them to be communist
There have been many socialist states, both past and present. Examples include the PRC, Cuba, Vietnam, DPRK, Laos, and the former USSR. In all of these countries, life expectancy, literacy rates, economic democratization, and more have skyrocketed. Life expectancies in the USSR and PRC doubled. Using only the USSR as an example, as it's the classic one pointed to as "authoritarian," it's clear that analyzing the facts at hand points to tremendous success.
The USSR had steady and consistent economic growth, and provided free, high quality education and healthcare, full employment, cheap or free housing, and fantastic infrastructure and city planning that still lasts to this day despite capitalism neglecting it. This rapid development resulted in dramatic democratization of society, reduced disparity, doubling of life expectancy, tripling of functional literacy rates to 99.9%, and much more. Living in the 1930s famine would not have been good, but it was the last major famine outside of wartime because the soviets ended famine in their countries.
Literacy rates, societal guarantees in the 1936 constitution, reports on the healthcare system over time, and more are good sources for these claims.
The USSR brought dramatic democratization to society. First-hand accounts from Statesian journalist Anna Louise Strong in her book This Soviet World describe soviet elections and factory councils in action. Statesian Pat Sloan even wrote Soviet Democracy to describe in detail the system the soviets had built for curious Statesians to read about, and today we have Professor Roland Boer's Socialism in Power: On the History and Theory of Socialist Governance to reference.
When it comes to social progressivism, the soviet union was among the best out of their peers, so instead we must look at who was actually repressed outside of the norm. In the USSR, it was the capitalist class, the kulaks, the fascists who were repressed. This is out of necessity for any socialist state. When it comes to working class freedoms, however, the soviet union represented a dramatic expansion. Soviet progressivism was documented quite well in Albert Syzmanski's Human Rights in the Soviet Union.
The truth, when judged based on historical evidence and contextualization, is that socialism was the best thing to happen to Russia in the last few centuries, and its absence has been devastating.
Death rates spiked:
And wealth disparity skyrocketed alongside the newly impoverished majority:
Capitalism brought with it skyrocketing poverty rates, drug abuse, prostitution, homelessness, crime rates, and lowered life expectancy. An estimated 7 million people died due to the dissolution of socialism and reintroduction of capitalism, and the large majority of post-soviet citizens regret its fall. A return to socialism is the only path forward for the post-soviet countries.
When you look at the US Empire and western Europe as having higher quality of life than the USSR, you are looking at the benefits of imperialism, colonialism, and neocolonialism and wishing the USSR also practiced this, instead of helping liberate colonies and the global south. Russia in particular was a semi-feudal backwater in 1917, and made it to space 5 decades later. The USSR was not the picture of wealth, but was for its time the picture of development and rapid progress.
It isn't the socialist countries giving western countries ammo for propaganda, it's just western propagandists twisting them. Communism is pro-worker authority, not against authority in general, as it's through worker-authority that class and the state can be abolished down the line alone.
Fucking lol
Any american will tell you our government is trash and oppressive. And yet when we point out that so is Chinas government you get pure unadulterated propaganda like this shit. And then call us brainwashed.
Lol
Remind me again about how installing suicide nets and making workers sign waivers saying if they kill themselves it isn't the factories fault is "workers having state authority"
I bet I'll just get banned though huh. A lot easier than actually using facts.
Go back to reddit
China has a lower suicide rate than Switzerland, the UK, the US, Taiwan, etc. Suicide nets exist, but suicide isn't nearly as widespread as you make it out to be.
Hell yeah dude, you're 12
Ah you're also not missing in the party. Nah I'm not, I'm just realistic...
Go back to reddit