It is being reported by The Free Press that in the meeting [Undersecretary of Defense for Policy Elbridge] Colby told [the Vatican ambassador to the U.S.] Pierre, "The United States has the military power to do whatever it wants in the world. The Catholic Church had better take its side."
Someone in the meeting then reportedly mentioned the Avignon Papacy to Pierre. This refers to a 14th century attack on the Vatican by the French king, in which Pope Boniface VIII was murdered by assassins and the Vatican was forced to relocate to Avignon where it could be controlled by the French crown for the next 67 years.
Its clear they meant to make a very, very stupid threat, but im also sure they did it in the laziest, shittiest way possible.
The stupidity comes from trying to threaten a religious figurehead of a church of 1 billion people with assasination in our media enstrangled world when the president can't even handle the bad polling from gas prices going up.
I have no doubt some of his inner circle would gladly murder the pope to make a point, but their evil is also grossly incompotent.
The stupidity comes from trying to threaten a religious figurehead of a church of 1 billion people with assassination in our media enstrangled world when the president can’t even handle the bad polling from gas prices going up.
I have no doubt some of his inner circle would gladly murder the pope to make a point, but their evil is also grossly incompetent.
This, exactly. I'm not even a believer, but I know the history very well, and I'd readily bet on a group that has lasted in its current form for roughly a thousand years (see note below) and has something like 1.3 billion adherents, over a diaper-wearing kiddie-raping bully that hasn't even made 80 and is firing his own cabinet members during the most stupid war he could ever have started while he systematically works to destroy his own country. They believe in an unconquerable god and heavenly king; Trump believes he is god and wants to be a king. In a war of ideas with a roomful of religious historians (aka Jesuits) Trump's bullies are not winning jack shit.
Whoever mentioned Avignon meant it as a threat, but for anyone who knows history -- and these cardinals certainly do -- in 2000 years of Christianity, for the Catholics Avignon was a blip in time that the Church overcame and was made stronger by. Knowing some historically-minded Catholics (and Eastern Orthodox, too!) and how into the history they really, really are, the mention of Avignon is not nearly as much of a threat to the Pope as it is a reminder of the supremacy of the church throughout the ages, and how challengers come and go but the Church remains.
The cardinals really do think like this; this is not an exaggeration. That DoD fool only thought he was lecturing the cardinal, lol. I've been personally witness to sincere, hours-long religious arguments over historical concepts like apostolic succession (though not with cardinals, lol), and compared to that Avignon wasn't even a hiccup. I'd put money on all those cardinals catching each other's eyes and smirking when the Americans weren't looking, because every cardinal in that room was thinking about papal history in the long term: in that context, the DoD rep was simply making an ass of himself.
Let's see Polymarket take this one up. Pope v. Trump: who wins? It's a no-brainer. I'll take the guy in the white dress.
Note: I'm going with the Great Schism of 1054; others might calculate it differently
The US reps probably went into the meeting with chatgpt open and just kept typing "I want the pope to stop being mean to israel, what do I say now?" to the prompt. I doubt they knew what they were saying.
I think the defense of the Vatican is the responsibility of Italy. They don't play games with their sovereignty. Also, the Swiss Guard is far from being a cerimonial guard. They are on the level of special elite forces and they will kick some serious ass or die trying.
An attack on Italian troops would be an attack all of the EU. Even the UK would have something to say. You worried about the strait of Hormuz? Try Gibraltar...
An attack on the Vatican will also be an attack on all the Catholic world. The US would lose, no chance.
The CIA kidnapped Italian I don't know if they were citizens but people legally allowed to be in Italy off the streets and flew them to Guantanamo and tortured them forever without telling italy, without permission and despite Italy trying to do do stuff about it nothing came of it. We also have military bases in Italy still last I heard.
It's possible italian intelligence was aware, their civilian leadership likely wasn't, and would be a huge scandal if it was. Their judicial system definitely wasn't aware let alone agreed, they have warrants out for some of the CIA involved.
Maybe we should start a betting pool, my money is on kidnapping the ICC officials, but I'm also leaning towards taking the Nobel committee hostage at some point to make them sign over the Peace Prize.
The Epstein class, Republican politicians and their Evangelical nationalist ministries have given the Catholic priests a run for their money on that crime against humanity.
You understand that magats are typically protestant right?
Jesus (as written) would likely be very upset about a church that builds enormous cathedrals, hoards gold, has a corrupt "priest class" and has at times waged war.
The American Catholic Church leadership is extremely conservative however and they hate the pope, they hated the last Pope as well. They would kill him themself if they could. There are exceptions but by and large the American Catholic Church leadership are Nazis.
He is one of the exceptions yes. The Catholic faithful I do not think are that split for republicans, they might have a majority but it is not overwhelmingly for Republicans as I understand It.
My grandmother, who was a devout Roman Catholic her whole life, even getting awarded for her service to the church, said that the Pope needed to mind his own business when he was criticizing Trump wanting to build the wall in his first term.
This is making some heavy assumptions about what the average MAGAT knows about Jesus. As far as most of them are concerned, Jesus' favorite gun would be an AR-15.
For them, the Bible is merely a thick paper tweet to be used to smack anybody who disagrees with them like a cartoon character smacking a dog with the newspaper.
This is making some heavy assumptions about what the average MAGAT knows about Jesus. As far as most of them are concerned, Jesus’ favorite gun would be an AR-15.
Sure - but one thing they also know is that "Catholics aren't Christian".
So I am an atheist, but the last 2 popes have been pretty nice people, right? The Vatican doesn't seem obviously corrupt. Nothing at all like the insane blatantly abusive megachurches in the US.
I have toured the vatican, expecting opulence. I was somewhat disappointed that it wasn't wealthy feeling. They have purposely made the vatican appear humble, despite their wealth on paper.
For a lot of good reasons.
The Sanhedrin (Jewish court organized by Rome to allow Jewish self governance on certain issues) convicted Jesus of blasphemy (based on nothing more than his words) and recommended his execution to the roman governor, who rubber stamped it. They violated a bunch of their own rules to do this, including holding a secret council at night, and on a holiday. It was all complete horseshit done by some politically connected crybullies.
So yeah, Jesus was not big on religious authorities of the day, as they were no better than the authorities in the same positions now. Nor has the dynamic changed much, or the players. We're still doing nothing about it though. Religious "authorities" -- especially zionists--are all bastards who should be ignored in any civilized society. The core issue here is that they had any authority at all, and that Pontius Pilate was incompetent and didnt do his job which was to order the sanhedrin to sit the eff down and shut the eff up, and follow the existing Roman civil laws-- not their own stupid laws.
TLDR: Historic lesson here is that when religious leaders get mad and demand sectarian violence, slap them till they sit the eff own, no exceptions.
This is about Saint Paul. According to tradition, Saint Peter was the first bishop of Rome (and, thus, the first pope). Different guys. Paul was basically the first Christian theologian.
On the matter VP Vance had this to say "I think it's always a bad idea to offer an opinion on stories that are unconfirmed and uncorroborated, so I'm not going to do that."
this is coming from the "Haitians are breaking into homes to eat your pets!" guy
That can apply to ALL of them. In one way or another, they are depraved, corrupt, ignorant, stupid, traitors, or YES. You could make a drinking game that is paired with Cards Against Humanity, and everyone at the table will end up dead.
If I was the pope and meeting JD the couch fucker was in the agenda, I'd also decline. Considering what happened to the previous pope who met that turd with makeup.
Also, unless the meeting is on your own turf, how do you diplomatically refuse to sit on a couch that was there with JD before you got there? I don't think pope training covers this.
Especially in the Oval Office: chances are non-zero that any seat you might take in the room has had either diaper breach, Crown Prince Couchfucker after hours, or both.
A guy who has to dress in white for the job has to think about these things, because if he sits on the wrong couch in the white robe, when he stands up again now it's HIS story. So in the end it's gotta be either "I'll just stand, thanks," or like you said, not go at all.
I dunno I think theres a vague quiet dignity to a politician who dresses like a clown or a heavily makeupped whore (no offense intended to legit prostitutes). All he needs now is a "I dont care, do you" coat to go full whore and I will give him a full dignity/self-awareness point and smallest ounce of respect.
The last pope died shortly after meeting with Vance. Sure he had pneumonia (but felt well enough to take a meeting), but Vance could conceivably have had something on his hand that interacted with the popes diminished health. Its pure speculation of course, and no one can prove it either way and the timing is suspect, when you see them now threatening the current pope with assassination. Assassination just comes to their mind huh?
Vance doesn't exactly look like the kind of guy who prioritizes washing his hands after a visit to the bathroom ..or couch. Who knows what he had growing under those fingernails.
I've seen other references elsewhere. Any quotes on what was said seem to reference the Free Press article. But the other sources are still reporting that there was a meeting, and the Vatican didn't like what they heard,whatever it was.
According to Vatican and U.S. officials who were briefed on the meeting and spoke to the publication, the Pentagon criticized the Pope's statements in January, interpreting them as hostile attacks on Trump's policies.
....
A Vatican official speaking to The Free Press said the Pope has no plans to visit the U.S. while Trump is in office.
As things got heated, Colby reportedly lectured Cardinal Pierre on the military power of the U.S. and told him that the Catholic Church must pick a side, according to Hale, and mentioned the “Avignon papacy.”
All information about the meeting was obtained by Ferraresi from Vatican and U.S. officials briefed on the Pentagon meeting.
What Could Such a Reference Indicate?
There is no doubt that a reference to the “Avignon papacy” by a Pentagon official was meant to make the Vatican feel uneasy about crossing the Trump administration.
Some have suggested that the reference of this chapter of medieval history might signal the Trump administration’s intention to trigger a new schism, while others think it would suggest its willingness to use military force against the Holy See. Ferraresi, however, said that interpreting it as a military threat is “just absurd.”
According to Mike Young, author of a newsletter on civic accountability, the mention of the “Avignon papacy” was a reference to “an implicit model for what happens to religious institutions that oppose state power.”
In a post on X, he wrote: “That’s not a slip of the tongue. That’s a studied historical reference deployed deliberately in a room with the Pope's senior diplomat. The message was not subtle.”
It would be ironic if Trump does to the Vatican what he did to Venezuela, even after the US Catholic Bishops' drive toward outlawing Abortion might have been the decisive factor giving Trump enough support to win both elections.
From what I've seen, there seems to be a difference in priorities between Catholic leadership in America vs the rest of the world. If the Republicans continue to antagonize the Pope, that would probably work in their favor.
You're not wrong, but that's not the way Catholicism works. People overplay the "infallibility" angle, but the bishops are supposed to listen to the Pope, that's the whole point.
The logical end result of "a difference in priorities between Catholic leadership in America vs the rest of the world." is either that the US bishops get in line, or we have a new Schism.
And I think this Pope knows it. The original Pope Leo is literally the Patron Saint of "defending against heresy". He chose that name for a reason.
You're totally right about the fact that they're supposed to follow the Pope, but they're also throwing references to the Avignon Papacy.
It could also very well be a schism where you have the American cardinals declare the Pope is from their own ranks backed by the State while another is in Rome. We've already seen a superpower do this with Buddhism.
Hate to break it to you, but we already have this. It's known as Evangelicalism.
(And yes, I know that there are decent folks in the Evangelical world; I've met them. But, overall, the movement has become a cesspit of fascist-aligned nationalistic heresy that doesn't even really seem to believe in the person at the center of Christianity. Also, the great irony of your example is that the American branch of Henry VIII's church--the Episcopal Church--is now considered too woke to be Christian by these people.)
Still, I think every schism probably had people saying "But we already have [religion]" before they went down
Whether or not there are decent evangelicals was kinda beside my point (I was just imagining historical parallels), but I agree and it's definitely worth repeating
Organized crime is in bed with the administration make no mistake. They are junior partners, or in the case of organized crime in the service of certain nation-state actors they are controlling partners.
Just as an aside, when Steve Bannon was in prison, he hung out with the mobsters.
Someone in the meeting then reportedly mentioned the Avignon Papacy to Pierre. This refers to a 14th century attack on the Vatican by the French king, in which Pope Boniface VIII was murdered by assassins and the Vatican was forced to relocate to Avignon where it could be controlled by the French crown for the next 67 years.
Sounds like they’re threatening to do to the pope what they did to Maduro.
We won't fully recover from this in the lifetime of anyone reading this comment. Just putting that out there. If we ever recover. The class divide is becoming so extreme the ultra wealthy are going to have power it'll be extremely hard to claw back from them.
Yep-- theres 1.4 billion catholics of various training levels-- its also 22% of the US population. Add that to the 2 billion muslims who already in need of some justice, and its starting to add up to a real insurgency risk, no matter how big the US military is. If Trump assassinates the pope and is caught in any way, its ON in the US.
According to the Hellsing documentary, the Iscariot organization is so far beyond the secret service that a single Paladin could erase them and still have time to make Mass.
I, for one, would not mess with the Swiss guard. They are highly trained AND they wear those ridiculous outfits. Someone willing to wear that orange and blue nonsense with that coffee filter collar while brandishing a halberd is not to be trifled with.
The Vatican could probably wipe out just about any government on Earth if it wanted to. They've got billions of sleeper agents all over the world who'd do whatever it tells them, many of them in the very governments they want to destroy. "The US has threatened to destroy Catholicism. You know what you need to do!" and suddenly everyone from mafiosos to Irish grannies to couch fuckers would be booking flights to Mar-a-Lago.
People forget head of the Vatican is an incredibly powerful political position. The pope changing his plans doesn’t say he’s afraid of you. It says you are less reasonable than the Catholic Church.
His absence is so much more damaging to the GOP than his presence. He played them good!
That being said, I am a little disappointed the pope didn’t call Donald’s bluff. If he shows up and died on American soil, the entire world (who needs only half a reason to stop tolerating our shit) would unite against us. If he survived, Trump would look even more impotent. Damn.
We just had the largest set protests in history. The Republicans have followed the Putin playbook and have undermined every check and balance in our set of laws to prevent this. Most people are literally a week of being unemployed from being homeless. The shit you are seeing on the news are what the 6 billionaires that own our entire media want you to see.
On top of that the heavily armed “Americans”. You love to shove in our faces as a stereotype have been entirely propagandized into supporting the very people oppressing them.
Bad news is the same framework that fucked us is almost guaranteed to be actively working to do the same in whatever country you live in. So use us as an example and prevent this shit from happening to you early before it’s too fucking late
Bad news is the same framework that fucked us is almost guaranteed to be actively working to do the same in whatever country you live in. So use us as an example and prevent this shit from happening to you early before it’s too fucking late
The people that fucked us have already fucked a bunch of other nations. The rise of right wing authoritarianism in Europe over the last few decades was aided by political operatives like Paul Manafort, who then directed that experience towards domestic politics.
And then there are the missionaries and evangelicals whose indoctrination programs pushed bigotry and intolerance in various African nations, leading to some of the harshest laws criminalizing LGTBQ in the world.
For a culture that's constantly complaining about "globalism", they sure spend a lot of time and money spreading their influence overseas.
the heavily armed “Americans”. You love to shove in our faces as a stereotype have been entirely propagandized into supporting the very people oppressing them.
Thanks for clarifying, It was a little vague. The subject of the post is the Vatican/Papacy and this isn't a USA-specific instance (Lemmy.world was spun up by someone from the Netherlands) or a USA-specific community.
In what world do you think the general American public is in support of assassinating/couping the fucking Pope?
The fucking pudding brain in chief has surged 100s/1000s of the most villainous people in the country into positions of power faster that can even be coped with, and are doing everything in their power to end every semblance of decency, sensibility, and justice from our government. I was already mystified that Trump could possibly win again and terrified by what he would do with a second go at it. But even his first term didn't prepare anyone for this shit. The evil bastard has accelerated the destruction of this country far faster than I could have even thought possible, and attempting to spread this destruction across the entire world. We're drowning over here.
But glad you get to sit elsewhere and be a judgy bitch about my apparent complicity in this bullshit for not, I guess, protesting hard enough or getting myself killed?
The last Republican pol that decided to hold a Town Hall basically all their attendees were chanting "Fuck You" together at them. (I enjoy using "they/them" for MAGA Republicans)
well the US has now totally gone rogue.
at this point a "military operation" into Vatican City of all places by the US wouldn't surprise me.
FTA
Holy shit did someone in the administration actually correctly use a historical reference?
Im sure they just asked grok about pope murders so they could make a absolutely ludicrious threat.
The longer we keep pretending they're idiots who don't know what they're talking about the longer we'll be in this.
The ones in front might be drooling simpletons but the ones in the back have done their homework and know exactly the threat they're making.
Its clear they meant to make a very, very stupid threat, but im also sure they did it in the laziest, shittiest way possible.
The stupidity comes from trying to threaten a religious figurehead of a church of 1 billion people with assasination in our media enstrangled world when the president can't even handle the bad polling from gas prices going up.
I have no doubt some of his inner circle would gladly murder the pope to make a point, but their evil is also grossly incompotent.
This, exactly. I'm not even a believer, but I know the history very well, and I'd readily bet on a group that has lasted in its current form for roughly a thousand years (see note below) and has something like 1.3 billion adherents, over a diaper-wearing kiddie-raping bully that hasn't even made 80 and is firing his own cabinet members during the most stupid war he could ever have started while he systematically works to destroy his own country. They believe in an unconquerable god and heavenly king; Trump believes he is god and wants to be a king. In a war of ideas with a roomful of religious historians (aka Jesuits) Trump's bullies are not winning jack shit.
Whoever mentioned Avignon meant it as a threat, but for anyone who knows history -- and these cardinals certainly do -- in 2000 years of Christianity, for the Catholics Avignon was a blip in time that the Church overcame and was made stronger by. Knowing some historically-minded Catholics (and Eastern Orthodox, too!) and how into the history they really, really are, the mention of Avignon is not nearly as much of a threat to the Pope as it is a reminder of the supremacy of the church throughout the ages, and how challengers come and go but the Church remains.
The cardinals really do think like this; this is not an exaggeration. That DoD fool only thought he was lecturing the cardinal, lol. I've been personally witness to sincere, hours-long religious arguments over historical concepts like apostolic succession (though not with cardinals, lol), and compared to that Avignon wasn't even a hiccup. I'd put money on all those cardinals catching each other's eyes and smirking when the Americans weren't looking, because every cardinal in that room was thinking about papal history in the long term: in that context, the DoD rep was simply making an ass of himself.
Let's see Polymarket take this one up. Pope v. Trump: who wins? It's a no-brainer. I'll take the guy in the white dress.
Note: I'm going with the Great Schism of 1054; others might calculate it differently
The US reps probably went into the meeting with chatgpt open and just kept typing "I want the pope to stop being mean to israel, what do I say now?" to the prompt. I doubt they knew what they were saying.
I think the defense of the Vatican is the responsibility of Italy. They don't play games with their sovereignty. Also, the Swiss Guard is far from being a cerimonial guard. They are on the level of special elite forces and they will kick some serious ass or die trying.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crisis_of_Sigonella?wprov=sfla1
An attack on Italian troops would be an attack all of the EU. Even the UK would have something to say. You worried about the strait of Hormuz? Try Gibraltar...
An attack on the Vatican will also be an attack on all the Catholic world. The US would lose, no chance.
The CIA kidnapped Italian I don't know if they were citizens but people legally allowed to be in Italy off the streets and flew them to Guantanamo and tortured them forever without telling italy, without permission and despite Italy trying to do do stuff about it nothing came of it. We also have military bases in Italy still last I heard.
Do you think if the Italian government was involved in that they would come out and say it?
These are need to know things and the public doesn't need to know ...
It's possible italian intelligence was aware, their civilian leadership likely wasn't, and would be a huge scandal if it was. Their judicial system definitely wasn't aware let alone agreed, they have warrants out for some of the CIA involved.
Maybe we haven't been losing enough. Our losers might want to lose more bigly.
We're getting away from "speak softly and carry a big stick." We're more interested now in yelling loudly while shooting ourselves in the foot.
Hopefully things are better in a year.
Maybe we should start a betting pool, my money is on kidnapping the ICC officials, but I'm also leaning towards taking the Nobel committee hostage at some point to make them sign over the Peace Prize.
That would "prove" trump's god is better than their god.
Just like the Spaniards did in Mexico.
I just assume they want first hand conversations about covering up pedophilia.
Trading trade secrets?
Maybe the military is setting up plans to go in a and snatch the Pope like they snatched the president in Venezuela.
There's this thing with a strait that seems to suggest otherwise.
Stop questioning our all dear leader REEEEEE!
Korea, Vietnam, Iraq
America wins so hard every time.
Once, this was satire:
Invade pope, distract Iran
What will be the distraction for invading the Vatican?
Raping more children
The Epstein class, Republican politicians and their Evangelical nationalist ministries have given the Catholic priests a run for their money on that crime against humanity.
Bidens economy.
Invade ..Minnesota again?
Now?
They should excommunicate Vance
Vlad Dracul solution is better
🌎🧑🚀🔫🧑🚀
They're just saying the quiet part out loud now
Threatening the POPE is EXACTLY what Jesus would Do!
-Republicans who want the Bible to be Law!
Most of those Republicans are some flavor of Protestant, so it tracks
Also they think the Pope is woke
When the Constitution is out of the way, Prosperity Gospel will be the official religion of the United States.
You understand that magats are typically protestant right?
Jesus (as written) would likely be very upset about a church that builds enormous cathedrals, hoards gold, has a corrupt "priest class" and has at times waged war.
Another thing to know about is that most of the Supreme Court justices are Catholics
6 of the 9 justices, 5 of them chosen by Republicans. Pretty wild for a country that’s 1/5th Catholic.
Looks like seven of them grew up Catholic, and all of those but Neil Gorsuch still are. Absolutely nuts.
The vice president is (or claims to be) catholic.
Neat
There's still a lot of Catholics in the movement.
The American Catholic Church leadership is extremely conservative however and they hate the pope, they hated the last Pope as well. They would kill him themself if they could. There are exceptions but by and large the American Catholic Church leadership are Nazis.
Even though the current pope is literally one of them. An American Catholic.
Sure, but he's somewhat progressive shudders
did you just orgasm during a lemmy post?
Don't kink shame. Some of us get highly aroused by.... mechanical keyboards!!!
shudders
He is one of the exceptions yes. The Catholic faithful I do not think are that split for republicans, they might have a majority but it is not overwhelmingly for Republicans as I understand It.
My grandmother, who was a devout Roman Catholic her whole life, even getting awarded for her service to the church, said that the Pope needed to mind his own business when he was criticizing Trump wanting to build the wall in his first term.
I'm glad she died before his second term.
Bullshit. You can’t compare Catholic leadership to MAGAts. They may be pretty conservative but by and large are horrified by this administration.
This is not “both conservatives are the same”
The majority of the Catholic leadership are members of the maga coalition.
Sure we can. Catholic leadership protects those who rape little boys the way MAGAts protect those who rape little girls.
This is making some heavy assumptions about what the average MAGAT knows about Jesus. As far as most of them are concerned, Jesus' favorite gun would be an AR-15.
For them, the Bible is merely a thick paper tweet to be used to smack anybody who disagrees with them like a cartoon character smacking a dog with the newspaper.
Sure - but one thing they also know is that "Catholics aren't Christian".
Unironically this. Jesus was not big on religious authorities.
He'd take one look at the Vatican and burn the whole thing down.
So I am an atheist, but the last 2 popes have been pretty nice people, right? The Vatican doesn't seem obviously corrupt. Nothing at all like the insane blatantly abusive megachurches in the US.
Unfortunately for us, they've been even nicer to the pedophiles in their ranks.
Have you seen how gaudy the Vatican is? Jesus was killed right after flipping his shit because there were money changers operating in the temple.
He'd be livid to find out how the church used his sacrifice for humanity to get wealthy.
But I kinda like pretty and big churches. E.g. Sagrada Família is amazing - that was built for all of us to enjoy, not just the church narrowly.
They feel different to me than a megachurch pastor buying his second personal jet.
I have toured the vatican, expecting opulence. I was somewhat disappointed that it wasn't wealthy feeling. They have purposely made the vatican appear humble, despite their wealth on paper.
The vatican needs to brun for other reasons, but is in hot water in this case because they oppose zionist mandated supremacist genocide of innocents.
Jesus would support the pope's actions in this one case.
I'll be honest, this pope is not gonna be the one he makes his primary target in this day and age
For a lot of good reasons.
The Sanhedrin (Jewish court organized by Rome to allow Jewish self governance on certain issues) convicted Jesus of blasphemy (based on nothing more than his words) and recommended his execution to the roman governor, who rubber stamped it. They violated a bunch of their own rules to do this, including holding a secret council at night, and on a holiday. It was all complete horseshit done by some politically connected crybullies.
So yeah, Jesus was not big on religious authorities of the day, as they were no better than the authorities in the same positions now. Nor has the dynamic changed much, or the players. We're still doing nothing about it though. Religious "authorities" -- especially zionists--are all bastards who should be ignored in any civilized society. The core issue here is that they had any authority at all, and that Pontius Pilate was incompetent and didnt do his job which was to order the sanhedrin to sit the eff down and shut the eff up, and follow the existing Roman civil laws-- not their own stupid laws.
TLDR: Historic lesson here is that when religious leaders get mad and demand sectarian violence, slap them till they sit the eff own, no exceptions.
Ackshually, what Jesus did to the first pope was take his eyesight:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+9&version=EHV
This is about Saint Paul. According to tradition, Saint Peter was the first bishop of Rome (and, thus, the first pope). Different guys. Paul was basically the first Christian theologian.
Read this is Bill Donahue’s voice from the South Park Easter episode.
On the matter VP Vance had this to say "I think it's always a bad idea to offer an opinion on stories that are unconfirmed and uncorroborated, so I'm not going to do that."
this is coming from the "Haitians are breaking into homes to eat your pets!" guy
Nothing reasonable about pedophile protecting fascist JD Vance. Let’s not allow them to position him as a viable leader.
That can apply to ALL of them. In one way or another, they are depraved, corrupt, ignorant, stupid, traitors, or YES. You could make a drinking game that is paired with Cards Against Humanity, and everyone at the table will end up dead.
You must be to type of person who beleives B. HUSSEIN Obama was born in the US. /s
Also the "If I have to create stories that's what I'll do." (About this exact thing) Guy.
What a chode.
If I was the pope and meeting JD the couch fucker was in the agenda, I'd also decline. Considering what happened to the previous pope who met that turd with makeup.
Also, unless the meeting is on your own turf, how do you diplomatically refuse to sit on a couch that was there with JD before you got there? I don't think pope training covers this.
Especially in the Oval Office: chances are non-zero that any seat you might take in the room has had either diaper breach, Crown Prince Couchfucker after hours, or both.
A guy who has to dress in white for the job has to think about these things, because if he sits on the wrong couch in the white robe, when he stands up again now it's HIS story. So in the end it's gotta be either "I'll just stand, thanks," or like you said, not go at all.
I dunno I think theres a vague quiet dignity to a politician who dresses like a clown or a heavily makeupped whore (no offense intended to legit prostitutes). All he needs now is a "I dont care, do you" coat to go full whore and I will give him a full dignity/self-awareness point and smallest ounce of respect.
So they threatened the pope of the catholic church with assassination.... Thats some Israeli level shit. Is Trump even the president at this point?
Vance already took out the last pope.
let's not forget Vance already killed the last pope by extreme cringe
Completely understandable if you lose the will to live after meeting Vance
Well he did catch JD and the papal couch in a comprising position. Its enough to fracture even the strongest hearts.
The last pope died shortly after meeting with Vance. Sure he had pneumonia (but felt well enough to take a meeting), but Vance could conceivably have had something on his hand that interacted with the popes diminished health. Its pure speculation of course, and no one can prove it either way and the timing is suspect, when you see them now threatening the current pope with assassination. Assassination just comes to their mind huh?
Vance doesn't exactly look like the kind of guy who prioritizes washing his hands after a visit to the bathroom ..or couch. Who knows what he had growing under those fingernails.
This is a huge story and I'm trying to find another source that also claims threats were made.
I've seen other references elsewhere. Any quotes on what was said seem to reference the Free Press article. But the other sources are still reporting that there was a meeting, and the Vatican didn't like what they heard,whatever it was.
https://www.the-independent.com/news/world/americas/us-politics/pope-leo-visit-us-trump-president-b2954080.html
....
https://www.newsweek.com/avignon-papacy-explained-what-reported-us-threat-to-pope-and-vatican-means-11803877
It would be ironic if Trump does to the Vatican what he did to Venezuela, even after the US Catholic Bishops' drive toward outlawing Abortion might have been the decisive factor giving Trump enough support to win both elections.
From what I've seen, there seems to be a difference in priorities between Catholic leadership in America vs the rest of the world. If the Republicans continue to antagonize the Pope, that would probably work in their favor.
You're not wrong, but that's not the way Catholicism works. People overplay the "infallibility" angle, but the bishops are supposed to listen to the Pope, that's the whole point.
The logical end result of "a difference in priorities between Catholic leadership in America vs the rest of the world." is either that the US bishops get in line, or we have a new Schism.
And I think this Pope knows it. The original Pope Leo is literally the Patron Saint of "defending against heresy". He chose that name for a reason.
There’s the middle ground of enough bishops get fired to bring the rest inline.
You're totally right about the fact that they're supposed to follow the Pope, but they're also throwing references to the Avignon Papacy.
It could also very well be a schism where you have the American cardinals declare the Pope is from their own ranks backed by the State while another is in Rome. We've already seen a superpower do this with Buddhism.
Maybe that's Trump's retirement gig, he'll leave the Presidency and become Pope Donald the Lecherous
Too old and useless to go full Alexander VI, but yeah.
"Trump deports Pope" is on my bingo card.
the Pope is American but still seems like a playable option
So when do prominent american catholics start getting excommunicated?
Does threatening The Pope and starting a war with Iran disqualify you from retaining a gold plastic FIFA Peace Prize?
The fifa peace prize used to mean something
Now it’s just another piece of silverware sold to corrupt interests
Kinda funny considering this pope is an American.
I'm almost surprised he's no an expat at this point.
He literally is, what do you mean?
To add:
Pope: US Born -> Lives in Popelandia -> Expat
They fucking hate when you call them immigrants though
Or LBH
We need some Templars.
We're gonna get a schism and the Church of America because Trump is basically Henry VIII but somehow even more disgusting
Hate to break it to you, but we already have this. It's known as Evangelicalism.
(And yes, I know that there are decent folks in the Evangelical world; I've met them. But, overall, the movement has become a cesspit of fascist-aligned nationalistic heresy that doesn't even really seem to believe in the person at the center of Christianity. Also, the great irony of your example is that the American branch of Henry VIII's church--the Episcopal Church--is now considered too woke to be Christian by these people.)
Oh yeah, I forgot about the Episcopals
Still, I think every schism probably had people saying "But we already have [religion]" before they went down
Whether or not there are decent evangelicals was kinda beside my point (I was just imagining historical parallels), but I agree and it's definitely worth repeating
I'm sure the historical Templars would've been so happy about somebody trying to copycat their style.
"Did u even say thank you, pope?" -Vance
The mafia has more subtly and self control than anyone in this administration.
Organized crime is in bed with the administration make no mistake. They are junior partners, or in the case of organized crime in the service of certain nation-state actors they are controlling partners.
Just as an aside, when Steve Bannon was in prison, he hung out with the mobsters.
Nazis also had a problem with the Vatican during War World Two, What could possibly be the common reason now?
Sounds like they’re threatening to do to the pope what they did to Maduro.
Missed opportunity for the Pope to rid us of the Antichrist
What's Peter thiel got to do with this?
Every day a new low.
We won't fully recover from this in the lifetime of anyone reading this comment. Just putting that out there. If we ever recover. The class divide is becoming so extreme the ultra wealthy are going to have power it'll be extremely hard to claw back from them.
gonna find out the Vatican is sitting on weapons far more powerful than nukes
Not 1, not 2, but 3.
the power of weaponized religion? ngl pretty powerful
Likely killed more people than all bullets combined
Same vibe as Stalins
Yep-- theres 1.4 billion catholics of various training levels-- its also 22% of the US population. Add that to the 2 billion muslims who already in need of some justice, and its starting to add up to a real insurgency risk, no matter how big the US military is. If Trump assassinates the pope and is caught in any way, its ON in the US.
Whos stronger Vatican security or secret service?
According to the Hellsing documentary, the Iscariot organization is so far beyond the secret service that a single Paladin could erase them and still have time to make Mass.
I, for one, would not mess with the Swiss guard. They are highly trained AND they wear those ridiculous outfits. Someone willing to wear that orange and blue nonsense with that coffee filter collar while brandishing a halberd is not to be trifled with.
The Vatican could probably wipe out just about any government on Earth if it wanted to. They've got billions of sleeper agents all over the world who'd do whatever it tells them, many of them in the very governments they want to destroy. "The US has threatened to destroy Catholicism. You know what you need to do!" and suddenly everyone from mafiosos to Irish grannies to couch fuckers would be booking flights to Mar-a-Lago.
It doesn't sound like you've met any Catholics
sounds like someone has never watched the 2006 film "The Da Vinci Code", based on the 2003 Dan Brown novel of the same name
I have known too many Catholics to believe this. Unless they could wipe out these governments with passive aggressive looks.
I didn't know they had internet from whatever decade this sort of old school racism is from.
A holy crusade against the USA... THAT would be funny...
I'm a staunch atheist, but this is a religious event i could get behind.
Proof that religion is a hoax. If it were real, the Pope wouldn't be able to resist splashing Trump with Holy Water.
Couchfucker is doubly going to hell now
People forget head of the Vatican is an incredibly powerful political position. The pope changing his plans doesn’t say he’s afraid of you. It says you are less reasonable than the Catholic Church.
His absence is so much more damaging to the GOP than his presence. He played them good!
That being said, I am a little disappointed the pope didn’t call Donald’s bluff. If he shows up and died on American soil, the entire world (who needs only half a reason to stop tolerating our shit) would unite against us. If he survived, Trump would look even more impotent. Damn.
Well, just look at what JD Vance did to the last one.
Mission Accomplished.
Once again, the Protestant reformation was a huge mistake.
Are y'all completely insane or just insanely complicit?
We just had the largest set protests in history. The Republicans have followed the Putin playbook and have undermined every check and balance in our set of laws to prevent this. Most people are literally a week of being unemployed from being homeless. The shit you are seeing on the news are what the 6 billionaires that own our entire media want you to see.
On top of that the heavily armed “Americans”. You love to shove in our faces as a stereotype have been entirely propagandized into supporting the very people oppressing them.
Bad news is the same framework that fucked us is almost guaranteed to be actively working to do the same in whatever country you live in. So use us as an example and prevent this shit from happening to you early before it’s too fucking late
The people that fucked us have already fucked a bunch of other nations. The rise of right wing authoritarianism in Europe over the last few decades was aided by political operatives like Paul Manafort, who then directed that experience towards domestic politics.
And then there are the missionaries and evangelicals whose indoctrination programs pushed bigotry and intolerance in various African nations, leading to some of the harshest laws criminalizing LGTBQ in the world.
For a culture that's constantly complaining about "globalism", they sure spend a lot of time and money spreading their influence overseas.
That was my point, we were the test run for the tech-bro oligarchy
I wasn't disagreeing, just expanding on your point. :)
Be the change you want to see in the world
Ah, yes, I love engaging in suicide missions that are unlikely to actually result in real change.
This mentality is why there are more armed fascists than leftists, comrade
So you're volunteering?
Range time starts at 6AM on the weekends.
Who are you asking?
Americans. Who did you think I was asking? The inhabitants of Cape Verde?
Thanks for clarifying, It was a little vague. The subject of the post is the Vatican/Papacy and this isn't a USA-specific instance (Lemmy.world was spun up by someone from the Netherlands) or a USA-specific community.
And here in lies one of the many problems with American exceptionalism. "It's always from our perspective."
As an American abroad, I have to say I really dislike the ignorance from where I was born.
In that, I congratulated you on your very Dutch directness in querying.
What country could you possibly be part of to have such self righteous rhetoric lol I'm genuinely curious
In what world do you think the general American public is in support of assassinating/couping the fucking Pope?
The fucking pudding brain in chief has surged 100s/1000s of the most villainous people in the country into positions of power faster that can even be coped with, and are doing everything in their power to end every semblance of decency, sensibility, and justice from our government. I was already mystified that Trump could possibly win again and terrified by what he would do with a second go at it. But even his first term didn't prepare anyone for this shit. The evil bastard has accelerated the destruction of this country far faster than I could have even thought possible, and attempting to spread this destruction across the entire world. We're drowning over here.
But glad you get to sit elsewhere and be a judgy bitch about my apparent complicity in this bullshit for not, I guess, protesting hard enough or getting myself killed?
The last Republican pol that decided to hold a Town Hall basically all their attendees were chanting "Fuck You" together at them. (I enjoy using "they/them" for MAGA Republicans)