What desktop operating system would you recommend to the average user?
Say a friend is looking for a new system, and said person is not particularly savvy with technology, what system would you point them toward?
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Linux mint
I love mint, have you tried a KDE desktop though?
Yes, they're terrible because you can't navigate through their settings without a mouse. Tab only goes so far in KDE. I couldn't stand it.
I respect your opinion, but it's not one that will be held by average users.
Mint is not run by professionals. It has been pwnd more than once. It's pretty, slightly better run than manjaro and has no reason to exist when ubuntu, fedora and suse exist.
Please stop pointing to mint as a starting place. Every level user is going to get a more secure and reliable experience avoiding mint.
Ubuntu, fedora, suse and spins of those 3. I wouldn't put a normal user on anything else without extenuating circumstances.
From what I can find, the Linux Mint website was breached once, in 2016, for a short duration and during that time the download link for the ISO referred to a site that was hosting a version that installed a backdoor.
Meaning it was short in scope, the dev team reacted to it, handled it, and then were open and transparent about it, and it only affected people who downloaded the ISO at that exact span in time and also installed that version instead of replacing it when the announcement came.
The harsh reality of IT security isn't that it's a question of if you get hacked, it's a question of when, even for multi-billion dollar companies.
They got hacked a couple times before that though it may not be widely published. Mint originally existed as an "easier" and prettier unbuntu run by volenteers. They would be extremely unlikely to figure out they had been compromised by an APT. And before you say it, look up the 2016 hack, it wasn't an APT.
Besides what other people said, manjaro breaks regularly.
Yup. Manjaro is infamous. Mint is dolled up ubuntu by volunteers
Stupid fucking answer.
I love Linux. I use it on multiple machines daily. It's not for an average user.
Correct, I wrote a decent comment about the actual issues with Linux for the average user in this thread
If they are not savvy enough to do troubleshooting themselves or have no one to ask for help, I think macOS would be the best (assuming money isn’t an issue). Otherwise, Linux Mint.
There's a rule you should learn. Never ever recommend Apple shit to people.
I generally wouldn't, but I do have a iPhone for work and got a good price on a M2 a couple of years ago.
The hardware is better than most laptops and the battery life way out preforms my work Win11 Dell of the same age
"Your opinion is wrong"
Absolutely, that's par for the course for anything Apple.
You're a good little Genius™.
TempleOS
Yeah, the average user must commune with god.
This guy gets it.
The only real choice!
What do you like about it?
Its Jesus approved.
Are we assuming this person has never used any other operating system before?
Because I do think a lot of the perception of Linux being more difficult is just because people who grew up on Windows or MacOS have gotten so used to those that the inertia of trying something new is what's hard about it.
The person described may have some Windows or Mac experience at school or work, maybe they got an iPhone or Android but never considered getting their own computer.
I'd probably recommend a Mac for now. I can't in good judgement recommend windows anymore.
Mac is solid and still respects your privacy to a certain degree.
Linux would be my second. Probably Zorin OS.
I've used Windows all my life (40 now) but the changes made in the last 10 or so years (since win 7 and forward have left me in a place where i feel Im super confused about even the freaking folder structure. Its partly on me becouse I havent kept up, but also, I havent asked for any of the shit they have done "recently". I switched to Kubuntu about a year ago and nothing has been easier. Anyway, My recomendation would be a any linux distro, havent tried mint but from what people are saying it's stable and easy so probably that one, but mostly because my feeling is that most Linux based OSs dont change stuff just for the sake of changing (someone will probably let med know the exceptions to this rule). But really, I think that the normal user dont want but to re-learn how to do something they allready knew how to do in an earlier version if there isnt a very good reason for it.
If you grew up with Windows, it's intuitive and easy to you. That Doesn't mean it's intuitive for anyone else. Kids are super confused about Windows these days.
Anyway, I would still recommend Windows because everything is designed to work with it. Normies don't troubleshoot. They just give up and move on. In this regard, you would want something that requires the least amount of troubleshooting. Every OS sucks in this regard, so I just don't have a clear winner here. Windows might still be the least infuriating one though.
However, if they did troubleshoot, they would probably enjoy Linux. Those error messages actually tell you what's wrong and how to fix it. Meanwhile in Windows, the errors are pretty much useless. You'll end up reading a bunch of forum posts where nobody knows what's causing the problem, let alone how to fix it. The best you'll get is a list of 15 things to try. Just hope that at least one of them works. If you have a problem in Linux, you'll usually find a forum post where someone tells you exactly what's causing it and how to fix it.
Normies haven't heard of privacy, and they also watch TV ads. Windows will be fine. They just won't see any reason to switch to Linux.
MacOS if they can afford it. Otherwise Linux Mint.
What the other replies shitting on macOS seem to be overlooking is the support Apple provides.
Got stuck on something? call the support line or web chat.
Want to go to a training session? go to a local store.
All this stuff is super important for a novice who wants to learn without feeling dependent on their tech friend.
This is what keeps Apple in business - they are very easy to use. Someone with zero technical skill can point at pictograms and open and close things. You could change the language to something you can't read and use most features without an issue.
it reminds me of memes like this.
And hey, failing that, Linux Mint. It works at least.
The other thing that keeps Apple in business is tech companies not wanting to fuck around with windows or Linux laptops. Linux systems run the world and MacOS is just plain better when it comes to interacting with those systems while also serving as a good user-facing operating system.
And before anyone says WSL, I was forced to use WSL for an engagement and anyone who tells you it’s viable is a lying or a Stockholm syndrome sufferer.
Ironically, tons of programmers also use Mac, because it has a rock-solid GUI on top of a Unix. The ‘pictograms’ don't matter as much as the fact that Apple designers actually know design basics unlike MS, and spent ages polishing the UI.
They even have classes to easily make emojis. Like it’s absurd the customer service they have. Windows tells you to fuck off. Does Linux have one? (I ran Ubuntu in college but honestly the ease of Mac switched me, and then dealing with windows at work killed any desire to be near a windows product).
Emojis - I think you mean stickers? Emojis as a set of characters are standardized by Unicode. A friend of mine has sent me stickers she's taken from photos. Samsung devices also do this within their own ecosystem, but there's not a frakin' class about how to do it.
Linux customer service is "uh...there's a forum somewhere...have you looked there?" People on lemmy hate when I say it, but paid (not free) Claude is actually very adept at troubleshooting Linux issues.
There's a rule you should learn. Never ever recommend Apple shit to people.
Why is that? I love my Linux PCs but you should not underestimate the mental barrier of considering Linux as a new user. Starting with Mac OS is like a soft start into it. And the apple silicone machines are powerful af. I use one as ML server and it performs well. Oh and the privacy by design is still pretty good in Mac OS.
I tried getting my mom on Linux mint. Kinda made me realize it's not as user friendly as I thought. I would go with windows or macOs if they just want everything to "work"
The problem i see with Linux is that we all seem to have to rely on interpreting documentation on some level, whereas on Windows or Mac people search a problem, some article vaguely describes the issues they have, said article recommends [Insert Software Installer Here] to resolve aforementioned issue, people are pleased their issue is resolved without actually knowing what really changed on their system.
What exactly was the problem because everyone who I've seen use Linux Mint has had no problems, including my grandma who was bugging me every week about some dumb new shit Microsoft was doing before I switched her.
Because it's expensive as shit, especially for a new user.
If you introduce any system to a person not familiar with computers, they're a blank canvas and won't need to change paradigms for their mental model. Great chance for Linux to shine. Just install an easy desktop environment, and a simple distribution. They'll probably need a bit of hand holding at first but that's what you're there for as the friend having recommended their OS in the first place.
One easily gets blind of the fact that it takes quite a lot of knowledge of computers to run Linux. You often see stuff that scares the shit out of a regular user.
The problem is the experience is not customized for a person who doesn't care HOW it works. They just want to do their stuff without hassle.
I've tried this a couple of times and mostly I end up being a 24/7 computer fixer hotline and end up installing macOs or windows in the end to make everyone happy
I'm running Arch Linux and I don't know HOW it works, I just follow instructions. 🤷♂️
Everyone has to start out somewhere. There really are minimal effort/knowledge distros out there.
Well if you installed and set it up by yourself you already are way more advanced than a normal user. But again one easily is blind to that fact.
But what can we expect of this user were recommending a system for? Are they supposed to install it themselves or nah?
I didn't know anything about how to install Arch when I decided to give it a shot. I just read instructions and typed what it told me to type. I knew nothing about what I was typing.
Same as when I installed Ubuntu like 20 years ago as a teenager. I filled in my name and clicked the Next button a few times, and entered what I think the partitions should look like. Then waited to watch the progress bar fill up.
These are steps you have to take to install Windows as well... Unless of course you're not installing it yourself, but that can be the case for Linux, too.
Overpriced, idiotic design, idiotic UX, whit UI, anti-repair system.
Maybe the rule to be learned is read the post.
So you're saying that it's a good idea to give an overpriced, non-repairable, underperforming, shit looking, shit behaving, toxic corporate assfuck trash system to a person who's not tech savvy.
Are you part of some big brain trust?
Mate I'm no fan of Apple but half the stuff you said is completely subjective or based off 2012 era memes. How do you define "overpriced" or "underperforming"? In terms of price, the hardware in their machines is usually pretty good, build quality has always been great. You'll have to elaborate on "underperforming" as I'm not really sure what you're saying with this.
Hey, I'll give you $500 for every time I typed "good" in this thread prior to this comment. Take your time and look.
Then, when you're done, I would encourage you to re-read the original post. Here, I'll help you:
I would never point a friend towards Windows. So that's easy.
Let's read it again, OK?
Meaning that this is someone who might be lucky to know how to spell their name or tie their shoes. Someone that failed a driving test 4 times. Why make life more complicated for this friend? Especially when, if I'm a friend as well, when they one day follow ChatGPT advice on how to do something inane and delete their boot partition or something stupid, I have to help unfuck their stuff. This is someone that doesn't deserve the responsibility that Linux distros give users. This is someone that doesn't practice 3-2-1 backups. This is someone that forgets their phone in a bar the day after they got a new phone because they left the last one at the beach, but HAS TO HAVE their photos on there or they'll die. They will never get anything repaired. They will never push performance limits (lol), as noted, they gladly spend money for someone to coddle them on using their device because they will never in their life learn how to do more than turn it on, take pictures, scroll IG or whatever, and a few other things.
This is not someone smart enough to responsibly use a Linix distro in my mind. And there are a LOT of people like this out there. A lot. And sometimes we're friends with them and want them to at least not bother us all the time with problems if they're willing and able to do that with the people that made the device.
At this point, I would also second MacOS/iOS just because of how much the two synergize with one another. But if you're just doing basic shit and web browsing, iOS cause at least you can hold onto your phone for a long while before feeling the need to upgrade again.
There's a rule you should learn. Never ever recommend Apple shit to people.
There is another rule you should learn too: don’t showcase your Apple envy more than twice in the same thread.
See, there's the face of the fanbase. Poor people think Apple is expensive. I gave away my Macbook after a few weeks because it sucked and because I can 😏
It's important to protect potential customers of becoming like you.
My Fedora/KDE setup is superior in any regard. The only thing Apple is better at is screwing their idiot buyers.
His Apple hatred knows no bounds.
You mean corporate hate?
Keep sucking off your overlords.
What do you think about Microsoft and Windows?
As a Fedora user - Apple has better security. Linux doesn't do everything better.
The French call that «l'issue du skill». Privacy and security start in your mind.
I said security. Privacy is related but different.
And you know that the answer is the same ;)
Apple users are the easiest to scam because they ... well, bought Apple.
Is this some kind of a bot?
I don’t think he’s a bot, just someone who wants to shit-talk for the fun of it.
Check for yourself Schluppi. You seem a bit lost online.
If this average user doesn't need to use Microsoft or Apple software, Fedora Workstation Linux. My dad, who is 78 and of average intelligence can use it, anyone can.
Linux can run on older, used hardware, has no AI, no Apple or Microsoft account required.
Bazzite. Fedora + drivers + immutable + gaming works out of the box.
I fail to see how gaming has anything to do with my retired dad.
I didn't realize OP's question was 'What desktop operating system would you recommend to Scott's dad?' I guess I need new glasses.
I don't get the appeal of immutability. System files are read-only for users for a reason already. Don't modify them as root unless you know what you're doing and you'll be fine.
What am I missing?
(Also gaming for a 78 year old, meh.)
Making them immutable for everyone protects users who enter their password in prompts without thinking.
How can the system be upgraded at all if not even the root user has access though?
The updater downloads an updated copy of your root system and saves it next to the one you're running.
When you reboot the next time, the bootloader boots from that new system image.
Userspace applications are installed as flatpaks and sit in a writeable directory.
And "the updater" is what? A program running as [not root]? How does it have write access if nothing does?
It's the package manager. And it doesn't have write access to your installed root either.
It doesn't change anything on your installed file system at all, it installs a new system next to it.
What you're missing is that the question was what would you recommend to the average user.
Exactly, so there should be no reason to edit sensitive system files in either case. Great, further to my point.
Okay? I don't understand this reaction in this context. I'm just making statements lol. Not yelling at you.
I'm not an immutable guy, but from what I heard it's more of a way to address programs and dependency hell, less the user modifying system code. Correct me if I am wrong
Bazzite?
Really, you would recommend a young, gaming focused distribution for a non-tech person?
I'd want something stable and trusted rather than something new and hip
Yes. I've been switching non-tech people to Linux for 17 years. Ubuntu used to be the go to, but it has a steep learning curve for the average user, sucks, and has gotten consistently worse. Everyone eats their shit over Mint, and Cinnamon is nice, but I'd still field a lot of complaints. Pop! OS is awesome, but still only 90% of the way there (and also people hate the name).
Bazzite is feature complete, requires zero tinkering on their end or mine, and 'just works' the way people expect a modern desktop OS to. I've converted just under a dozen people and several of my personal machines and haven't had an issue yet. So yes, I would recommend a young, gaming focused distribution to a non-tech person. Isn't Steam OS also young and gaming focused? And yet it's arguable that most non-tech people start their Linux journey there. bazzite is just an improvement on Steam OS. So yeah, I like it. I don't understand all the ire in this thread for my answer to the question. Everyone has their opinion, I have field research.
Yes.
The one thing I'll give you is that it's a young distro and hasn't proven itself to be reliable and still available in the long term, but honestly, given all the other benefits, I'll take that chance
If you pick the correct hardware. Which is a crap shoot per distro, bazzite included.
People keep saying this but I've not had a single solitary issue getting Bazzite working on a myriad of older and newer devices.
I've had issues on multiple devices.
Which devices, if I may ask? I'm curious under which circumstances I should definitely not recommend it.
MSI tomahawk mags, one with a 10700, the other with a12700. Nvidia GPUs. Nothing out of the ordinary.
No, it doesn't.
What do they want to do?
An iPad with a keyboard can serve the needs of a significant amount of users. I know people for whom it’s their only device apart from a phone.
A hardcore gamer will want Windows. Linux can play a lot better of games natively or fairly easily via Proton. macOS has some good ones natively but playing via Wine is more complicated. Some specialized industry workflows will require it. Windows-only games and applications are the only reason to recommend Windows.
Mac/macOS is great general purpose hardware and software. Good applications are available for art, science, engineering and productivity and it’s certified Unix. The ecosystem can be slick—Handoff from/to iPhone, unlock with Watch, TimeMachine backups, etc. Support people are usually native speakers from the same country. Some good native games and some through Wine are possible but Window and Linux have significantly more.
Linux can work for basic email, productivity and web browsing. Gaming choices are better than macOS but Windows is still better. They don’t have to worry about ads or the next interface fad being forced on them. They’ll likely need a bit more hand-holding and support down the road. They’ll need a Linux guy but they can be up and running on old/cheap hardware.
This is the first sane comment that understands OS is determined by use case. All the skids pushing mint are depressing.
Ask the person questions and find out what they want to do with the machine. This is very much the kind of question teenagers ask and confidently answer like what programming language is best.
Can confirm. A tablet can do about 99% of what people usually expect from a computer. Gamers and professionals are an exception to this rule.
Usually people just want to check their email, browse news and watch YouTube. Any tablet these days is good enough for that kind of basic use. However, OP specifically asked about desktops, so I guess we are talking about someone who does have particular requirements after all.
Linux (probably mint or zorin), unless they need some specialty software ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Fedora, now it's shockingly easy to use.
I silently replaced windows in the home PC and it took 2 months for the tech illiterate SO to say "WTF, why you put Apple on this PC, I thought you hated them" (put same username/password, same wallpaper, even Microsoft Edge)
At work I was shocked that I could login directly as
[email protected]without any extra configuration. Plain vanilla fresh install, typed my active directory account for laughs, it worked 😲Also at work I was shocked to see that I could just run the exe of the windows-only accounting software and everything works. I even installed LibreOffice in wine, lol (the accounting software needs
soffice.exefor generating spreadsheets). I could even install foxit reader for windows 😂 (sorry, all the Linux PDF readers completely suck when printing, I need previews and booklet and all the extra features)Wait a damn second, Fedora sometimes can allow you to just run a windows exe program by default???
How does it compare to Mint in your experience?
i mean with wine, but compared to the last time i tried it with office apps (playonlinux around 2018) it's WAY more compatible
Ohh yea makes sense.
I still have to try wine more properly
From my perspective, it kinda depends on what phone your friend has.
If they have an iPhone, and want to be able to integrate both systems, then macOS. If they're on Android, then Mint.
Prior to my shift to Linux, I was all in on Apple. My MacBook, iPad and iPhone all worked beautifully together. These days I have a Pixel running Graphene, and my computing is a mix of macOS and Kubuntu, and while I'm using Kubuntu my iPad is basically useless. KDE Connect is spotty at best, and while SyncThing theoretically works, it's too much of a faff to bother setting up. Oh, and Apple Music is essentially non-existent on Linux if you value lossless audio.
However, there are ways to integrate. Signal works well across the platforms for messaging, and even WhatsApp to some extent. Firefox is decent enough on iPad so you can sync tabs across. And WinBoat will run Apple Music in a VM, though that obviously takes a reasonable amount of utility from your computer.
Syncthing works great on Fedora, GrapheneOS, and an old android tablet. Wasn't difficult to set up.
Yes. But that's not what I said.
I've come to rely on SyncThing across my MacBook, Graphene phone, a couple of Linux machines I use, and an old Samsung tablet. But not my iPad. Because it sucks on iOS/iPadOS.
MacOS.
I hate Apple, and I do not like how they operate. But I cannot deny how user friendly their OS is, how affordable their machines are (Mac mini) and how even those who do not know how to use a PC, can pick them up and use them.
Linux Mint is my second choice
Only Linux which feels like a normal PC, and 99% of features can be installed via UI. There are holes, and I feel an immutable OS would fill this niche better, but for now this is my number 2.
Ya, I do like my Mac, the track pad is phenomenal as well.
But fuck everything about their prices, or at least the laptop prices...
If I didn't need a mac for work (iOS development), I'd probably try a linux laptop next.
I literally installed mom and dad's Mac mini yesterday. They need to be able to run commercial software. Moving to Mac was foreign enough for them, I don't think people in their 90's would do well with Linux. I will, however, work on getting my sister onto Linux. We will see.
Do they not have iPads? Every old person I know has an iPad they are glued to. If they are used to that, they can handle macOS
I fell with the right desktop environment like Plasma and a locked down OS that can be used without a password, Linux can be for all. Especially when it comes to using it as a web machine. If they don’t need apps, it’s fine.
Mac’s are my go to if you need commercial software. And the one pain point for Linux as a OS.
Though Valve is bridging the gap
Linux Mint
Apple for sure. I dislike them personally, but their OS has a great UI/UX and is very user friendly. And their stuff just works together really seamlessly.
But, if all they do is browse the Internet, Linux is also a good option as long as you're ready to set it up for them and answer questions. I switched my 75yo mom to Mint when Win10 hit EoL and she hasn't had an issue.
Linux. Hands down. Always.
New user? Try Kubuntu Linux
Power user? Eh, you can try anything but I'm still with Kubuntu because Ubuntu with KDE just works so damned nice
Whatever Linux is being sold pre-installed on a machine within their budget.
Told my dad to buy a Dell laptop with Ubuntu preinstalled after his last Windows laptop died. He's been fine with that for the last 5 years.
Dad is on Mint as well
It's just that I couldn't install Whatsapp on it for calls... Which may be a huge win if iti gets him to switch to Signal lol
If you are mainly gaming, Bazzite. For everything else, Fedora.
Point blank generic recommendation? MacOS.
Otherwise, Linux is the endgame, so it's a matter of talking to the person to see what software is essential for them.
I mean sure, if they have a specific need for MacOS, but otherwise I think it's a bit disingenuous to recommend such an expensive platform.
I would love being able to pay for amazing Linux software. Don't think having zero on the price tag is helping Linux, but maybe that's just me. You pay with your time, not with your money.
I wouldnt dare recommending something that most cant use, simply because they cant buy, beyond that there ethical considerarions, Apple is famous for ecosystem lockin which is extremely unethical
Ecosystem lock-in is likely not a concern for the average person, though. If they just need a computer to browse the web and edit some basic documents, everything else is just fluff.
Debian Linux
I have installed it for several computer illiterate old ladies. They swear by it.
Debian is a rock solid choice.
Nice post to stir some shit, OP. 🍿
🍿
I'll just fucking say it. Windows. Maybe Mac if you want, but that's gonna cost a fair bit more. Skip Linux. Everyone here circlejerks it like it's the best thing since 3.25" floppy drives, but it's a pain in the ass for the above average user, let alone someone who isn't tech savvy. The first time they encounter a problem and have to open the terminal they are going to shut off their computer and burn their house down. Unless your friend wants to learn Linux, then I'd advise you to steer them clear, regardless of what the crowd here has to say about it.
Windows is clean and simple. People here will say otherwise and they'll point to strawman arguments that don't have anything to do with the average user, like user telemetry or shutdown/restart on update. Windows wouldn't be dominant if it wasn't user friendly. If my grandfather can figure out how to install his bible verse software on his Windows PC, then your friend is going to be just fine.
Edit: echo "⬇️" | figlet
IT guy here, this is the right answer.
Don't get me wrong, Linux is awesome, but I don't consider it suitable for someone with zero tech knowledge.
You don't want to get stuck as their only support person, with Windows they have plenty of other resources to check with.
the reason why windows is dominant is for a few reasons. One of which is the fact that it's THE enterprise OS. So what people use at work, they're gonna use at home. they're going with what they know.
And it wouldn't be in that position if it weren't easy enough to teach to the least tech savvy person on the planet.
i don't believe mac is less user friendly than windows. It might even be MORE user friendly. Why don't people use mac?
Because Apple built it's brand around control. If you think windows locks down their users, try working on a Mac. Shit, you couldn't set a wallpaper on an iphone for 3 years. It's about the ability to make things work the way that you need them to. Maybe Linux is better there, but Windows vs. Linux is going down a mountain road with or without guardrails. You'll get to the bottom either way, but one might be a bit more hazardous.
Apple is pure shit.
They sell expensive shit, they are anti repair, they do anything and everything to kill jailbreaking but they make a great user experience.
They also make a shit UX. And it's just overpriced.
God. This is the only reasonable answer and it's way down here struggling to stay above 0 votes.
This thread says a lot about the state of Lemmy honestly. Well done guys.
Windows is the only choice because if someone does not already have a preference then they're not going to thank you for making them learn where the buttons are.
Windows sucks more now, but it is still the top dog and I do not expect that to change soon. Linux is something you go out of your way to learn for the sake of absolute control and privacy over your system. Problems are to be expected on Linux, and you gotta be willing to deal with them. For the average person, they will want whatever works, and that will be Mac or Windows.
Nearing my 60s, very satisfied Linux Mint user. Obviously, it all depends what the user expects from their computer.
Sorry everyone, but I would go with either Windows or OSX, leaning toward OSX
It is funny to be downvoted on this after working as an IT technician for a decade and a half, including as a Linux sysadmin, a VIP tech, a 365 admin and normal user support.
Currently I would not suggest Linux/BSD to any inexperienced user, this is due to two reasons:
My point is that Linux is not ready for the normal person without tech interest, I'd gladly recommend Linux to a person disposed to solve their own problems, especially if they are showin an interest in tech.
I mean... Define normal person. Most people (I think) just use the browser for shit. Any os has a browser. Easy.
There's my half brained thought on that.
My IT tech brain's experience tells me that even a normal user will get bad updates, and say what you will about Windows, in my experience it does have quite excellent automatic recovery from bad patches.
Also, most people are dumb. I have spoken about a subject I'm well specialized in and got downvoted too. People are people. None of us here have verifiable credentials. We are all blank NPCs.
And anyone who claims to would need to dox themselves to prove it. Also proving that they make terrible decisions.
Mint and no shit.
Mint, even though it’s becoming a bit of a boring hyped up answer. It does work out of the box and it’s got a good balance between being familiar enough for newcomers and a full Linux distro.
Also, I imagine the community must be HUGE by now, meaning lots of help out there if needed.
The community is the blind leading the blind. You guys are kinda legendary with manjaro users. No joke, mint forums are legend. Like the opposite of the arch wiki.
I’ll have you know good sir that I use Debian and Mx.
My socks go up to my knees 🧐
I can't knock debian but i think about it like centos, doesn't come to mind thinking desktop / end user
Depends, what do they wanna do with it?
Otherwise just the OS they are most comfortable with.
If they are equally uncomfortable with all options, and have only the most rudimentary requirements, probably a tablet using the same OS as their phone.
If they genuinely wanted to take my opinion on the best choice, even if it meant learning, Linux. Probably something like Mint to start.
At this point genuinely linux. For everyday shit like browsing, mailing, whatever, for sure.
Apple is just... Apple. I guess. Windows is an ad.
Linux is the new "it just works".
Average user needs their computer mainly as a device to run a web browser. Mac does that the most reliably. This seems objectively true to me.
If they're a nerd, then either Linux or Windows depending on what kind of nerd they are.
Windows for gaming.
iOS.
Linux only if they can follow directions.
Posts on linux mint forum asking for help Nobody answers Now how do you follow that direction?
You say Mac or windows unless you have a death wish to be their eternal tech support
If they are buying a new laptop and macbooks cost about the same what they'd pay for a PC laptop, the mac is a solid choice.
I want to say Linux. I use Linux (and macs occasionally). Linux is great. But macs are also great and work very well out of the box. So does Linux, if the hardware is fully supported and if you don't need any non-linux desktop software. Those are some ifs.
Yeah for the average user, a Mac with Apple silicon is a great choice, you do not even have to buy new as a second hand M1 or M2 can have its battery replaced by Apple for about £160 and have a warranty on the work. The M1 for the average user is still more than powerful enough if you avoid the base RAM and storage. If you get really desperate there are also the genius bars, lol.
Sure you can pick up a secondhand Thinkpad for the same amount of money, replace the battery for less, stick whatever flavor of Linux on it you like, but the average user doing that by themselves and ending up with the same easy to use experience is unlikely. I would rather do the latter as I would pick a model I can upgrade RAM/Storage myself, but then I simply do not see the average user wanting to do that.
Depends on what they need it for.
Gaming, rendering, anything that needs lots of power and driver support - Windows
Music production, video editing, graphic design - MacOS
Programming, or people who want full control over their system - Linux
Don't listen to Apple fanboys. You absolutely do not need to spend $1000 to take notes and browse the internet.
Ask them what they want to do.
Gaming? Windows. SteamOS is great but there are too many games that require Windows.
Creatives? MacOS. Yeah, you can do all that (and more!) on Windows machines, but the creative space is largely all Mac all the time.
Office Productivity? Anything. Libre Office is cross platform.
Want to complain about how you don't fit in and it would be a better place if the world would just accommodate you? Linux.
It's mainly multiplayer games with anti-cheat malware. If they prefer single player games, they'll be fine.
I'd even go further and say that it's primarily PvP games. I think most multiplayer PvE games are ok too.
Honestly there aren't that many games with Windows requirement. A game not working on Linux is usually due to an anticheat with kernel level permissions, that is, games that contain a rootkit.
I'd say it depends on what types of games you play. From my understanding, the big issue with Linux and gaming is incompatibility with anti-cheat software. If you aren't playing competitive PvP games that use it, you generally don't need to worry about this.
arch (i use arch btw)
i just erased windows 11 and replaced it with Linux Mint Cinnamon- not easy for me as I haven't used anything but apple ecosystem since forever, but I'm extremely happy with it, and the upgrade in privacy is worth it to me even if it weren't an excellent OS, which it definitely is. you just have to be willing to learn new things
The amount of people who spend thousands of dollars on MacBooks to just open up Safari makes me want to believe the average person could just have a ThinkPad with Mint or regular Ubuntu and be just fine. But the reality is if you run into a solvable issue on Windows or a MacBook, usually the degrees of separation from someone (friend or family member) who can solve that issue is much, much, much lower. I just seriously doubt most people can conduct the bare minimum of troubleshooting to be able to even search the internet for easy solutions. Can people learn? Absolutely! Are they going to go through the trouble? Probably not.
But who knows, as personal computing becomes more expensive and system requirements stop people from updating. Maybe more people look to Linux as an alternative and perhaps we'll reach a critical mass where my previous statement doesn't matter.
thousands? the browse-the-net macbook air is $999
Sure, but there are still plenty of people who buy MacBook Pros regardless of their actual use cases, simply because they think the laptops will last longer. Anecdotally, I've tried to stop at least three friends from making that purchase.
i think they should start on the UI they have been exposed to the most.
they could do more productivity if they know how to navigate around the OS.
Linux Mint
Are they looking to become savvy? Linux. Are they looking to game? Steamdeck, or if they can wait a while, Steam Machine. Are they just wanting a device to check emails and watch *ahem* 'internet videos?' Android phone.
Any other option will be more money for less value.
Games run great in linux
Steam Deck / Machine is Linux.
Yeah, it just didn't really answer the question, steam deck is gaming with PC capabilities as a side project at that form factor.
I dock mine, hook it up to a TV.
I run a local LLM on it.
I do modelling/animating in Blender.
I do game dev in Godot.
I do video editing in ShotCut.
I do image manipulation in Krita, mostly.
I do these things far more often than I actually just play games on it.
Lol yeah.
I mean, I run Bazzite on my mine, but yeah, SteamDecks run SteamOS by default... which is linux.
MacOS combines user friendliness, easy learning curve, seamless integration with other devices, and reliability.
It’s what I’d recommended to anyone who wants to use a computer without having to deal with the aggravation of dealing with a computer.
I use Linux Mint
Steam games work on Linux Mint without issues, or at least I was lucky enough not to have issues so far.
Linux alternatives to popular apps are very good (Libre Office, Inkscape, Gimp etc) and they don't try to shove AI down my throat or demand subscription.
I also would like to include that in terms of ease of use and interface familiarity Linux Mint looks quite a lot like Windows XP.
Pop OS
Whole lotta MacOS recommendations here, so I'm gonna say:
Bazzite.
... you can actually play games on it, and its an OS too!
More technically:
Its a Linux distro, an atomic version of Fedora, with many tweaks and pre built in utilities to make gaming work better and more easily.
If you have no idea what that means, it means that its fairly cutting edge but also very stable version of linux, where the core OS yells at you if you try to muck with it, and highly encourages you to use the various sandboxed containers it helps you use you run all sorts of applications.
The simple version of the above is: Just use the app store, Bazaar, and things will pretty much 'just work'.
You can do more intense / power user / expert type stuff if you like, and it does take a few extra steps compared to just like, straight Fedora or Debian, but, Bazzite is much, much more noob friendly and much harder to break.
Idk if I'd even recommend anything anymore. Microsoft shit is easier but more likely to just nuke itself or destroy your data. MacOS is stable and user friendly but prohibitively expensive. Linux is generally great, but requires a level of teach savvy that most people are actively afraid of. I'm so tired.
i wouldn’t even say mac hardware is prohibitively expensive these days given how damn long it lasts
i can count on 1 hand the number of laptops i’ve used as my primary device for > 2 years and they’re all macs… current is going on 5 years and is only now looking like i might need a spec bump in the next 2
If they're only doing web stuff, I'd recommend ChromeOS on a Chromebook+ tbh.
Most users never use anything more than that and web-based apps will be more than enough for what they're likely to use. It's also ideal for those not tech savvy. Plus can use android apps too if needed so it can be used as a big tablet.
But of the 3, I'd probably chose Linux for them. But you'll have to expect to still be the tech support. That's why I say ChromeOS - it's used by kids a lot for a reason
Not sure why you’re getting downvoted here, Chromebooks are a solid option as basically a web terminal, or even for some slightly more demanding workflows that are supported, although it’s not for many people.
I for one bought a Thinkpad 11e 5th gen off a friend for $10AUD (what a friggin steal), which had windows 10 on it and was incredibly slow (hence the friends price), but I then flashed chromeOS flex on it and the battery life was insane, even with more than 20 tabs open all the time as well as crosvm Debian running constantly so I can run vscode.
Currently, since I graduated, I now use it as a throw around laptop for browsing news articles and Lemmy, and somehow I’ve not needed to charge it for I believe 2 or 3 days so far, and it’s at 53% with a battery degraded to 66% of its original capacity.
Although, it is on the chromeOS flex support list so it makes sense as to how it’s so well optimised. If I weren’t however using this specific device, I would’ve just chucked fedora or another Linux distro on it, since those work pretty well too.
Nah I get why - it's mostly a matter of perspective. Many had to deal with crappy school-supplied Chromebooks or the cheapest model their non-tech parents bought them for under $150. Or early models. And those were very poor implementations. Still are. I have a weak tablet style model and it takes a while to get going. My wife though, she has a Chromebook as her personal laptop, a higher end model from 7 years ago and it's still stupidly good and fast for a computer that old. But it also cost a lot more too - can't remember exactly how much but closer to $500-600 range. Was pre-Chromebook+ but all the specs were above those requirements. She uses it for browsing and web stuff primarily and it only ever causes issues when she forgets to update it for a few months and then wonders why she can't video call her parents.
If all you've used is a shit one, you're going to assume they're all shit - it's unfortunate that they "can run" on a potato and they sell them like that too which they really shouldn't. I also understand that I didn't choose one of the three options so would get discussed for that. And also, I get why some might not want to support anything Google-related too.
Yeah I fully agree. Even worse, millions of students being given crappy Chromebooks really built a culture of despising the entire platform, which spread elsewhere. It’s just like iPhone users writing off android phones because “they’re cheap trash,” when all they’ve looked at are supermarket prepaids.
And yeah, high quality Chromebooks are prevalent too, it’s just you need to know where to look. I’ve personally been quite interested in the Lenovo Chromebook plus 14, since it’s really a good look into how, despite the unsavoury reputation of the Chromebook brand, it is actually a really nice arm based laptop with MacBook like build quality, great screen, and has incredible battery life, although I do hate how arm Chromebooks are completely locked to google firmware without a proper way to run anything else on it.
What is actually deplorable though is the fact some companies still sell 16gb eMMC Chromebooks, which isn’t even enough for simple school tasks that aren’t exclusively browser based. I’d say 32gb eMMC is a much easier pill to swallow since you can actually store at least something without having updates be its slow agonising death
Mac or Linux, something like Mint, Zorin, or PopOS.
Mac for the better ingregration with more popular apps. Other than that, Linux, but test it out first since not all hardware works correctly. I had good luck with hardware on all that I have tried so far.
Linux - if it's on hardware that is sold specifically as fully compatible (like a Framework laptop or something like this)
ZorinOS seems pretty good.
Maybe, I do got a bit of a bias when it comes to the newer distributions though.
They all suck in their own unique ways, and I use them all, so I feel uniquely qualified to say that.
To be honest, I'm ready for the hate, but about 90% of the people I know looking for a recommendation are not the type of people for whom any flavor of Linux is well-suited. Apple is too much of a closed system and likes to do things its own way in contrary to everybody else, forcing users down their one and only path of truth regardless of whether it makes sense to do so even though it's completely different/opposite of nearly all best practices, which makes them a hard sell. Plus, they lost me with the "it just works" when they in fact do not "just work". So, just to make my life easier, I usually find myself suggesting people stick with Windows. I hate it, but it saves me time and sanity in the end.
It's funny to think about, because I have the exact opposite experience. I think it really comes down to the type of person though.
Most of the people I help (with IT) is people who is not that comfortable on a tablet and would like the next step up. A cheap laptop, with bigger screen and a physical keyboard. Used for banking, writing, browsing. Nothing that really can't be done on a tablet as well.
All of these people use Linux. Mostly Mint or ElementaryOS, depending on their preference.
If we add gaming into the mix, it becomes a little more "complicated". This really depends on the person. I have family/friends who game on Linux, but I also know one who didn't last that long using Linux, because it simply didn't fit their needs.
Windows is the most common, and most people are more accustomed to that OS.
So there is a big bar for the typical person. Can they boot off an image and press ok. I know that sounds sarcastic but some folks just can't handle do anything more than using the system that came with their device. I mean someone my age should be plenty use to installing a system but, well, you know. If they can't handle installing a system and does not have someone who can do it for them (keeping in mind those sorts will view every hiccup as the fault of the person who did it for them). Then buying a mac with apple care is the best way to go. If they have an issue they can go to the genius bar or call support or whatever. If they can handle installing a system but not much else then I recommend zorin which is an out of the box linux distro based on ubuntu lts and uses gnome by default. The main thing here is that its about as stable as a linux system is going to get with ubuntu lts, then it comes with any software someone could reasonably expect it to have. so stuff for doing pretty much all office and audio video stuff along with a browser of course and a fair amount of other things like disc burner software and an rdp client and playonlinux allowing many windows thing to be run or installed with a right click. Lastly most downloadable software has a debian option which will work fine although they can find most things they need in the software center. then to it will look for updates and nag them to get them installed automatically.
Linux, I'd say Manjaro, Linux Mint or Bazzite
Greeeeen
Green is good for our health. We should eat some. (especially when they're user-friendly, which is critical for a first OS change)
I'm a bit at a loss here with all these comments - can someone (for the sake of argument(s) & me giving further advice on such topics) give me some plastic examples what kind of issues bother average users of Windows, Linux, and macOS?
Like, is this like with rare(ish) cases, eg car accidents, where users don't usually experience them regularly so it's hard to argue which is best for which situation bcs every case is unique?
Bcs in the past couple of Windows iterations & "main" Linux distros (let's say last 15 years?), afaik the average user doesn't really have any questions on "how to use the system", nor encounters breaking changes overnight.
Even more to the point, an average user will need tech support regardless of OS if any kind of problem occurs (and in most cases "a restart" will fix it anyway).
To my limited Windows exposure in the very last few years I would say the most common issue I got asked about was either "why did this new thing appear now" or a stuck Windows update (either from buggy colossal space gobbling (as a bug of a current update or collected temp files that never got cleaned), or unknown reasons as per MS statements).
(I have literally 0 W11 experience, the above were Window 10 issues.)
To my limited Linux exposure in the very last few years the only actual question I got to actually research to solve was a version stuck nVidia driver (multiple repo issue which I guess distro upgrade didn't handle properly), which isn't dissimilar to issues Windows had with graphic drivers decade(s?) ago (when the previous version didn't fully unusual & it caused issues, sometimes even Windows update would bork a manual driver install, which is kinda like multiple repo issue).
(I also tech support a few family & friends with their techy needs, including PCs, but none of them are demanding users. They all "got switched" :) to Linux from Win XPs, Vista, and 7s, and since through various distros over the years, mostly Debian, are currently now like 5 years on Tumbleweed & the only question I remember in the last years, which I got multiple times, is why doesn't the daily wallpaper tell them where the pic is from bcs they remember that at one point "it did" - idk, some Gnome default thing did that iirc. I got the same question from by coworker about her Windows daily wallpaper, bcs it doesn't always display the info in lock screen.
Oh, and from my overall tech support to family most of the time is spent on passwords they have forgotten and ISPs dropping a connection for like 2 seconds once a year, bcs boomers.)
Years ago, I built my mother in law a computer. It had windows XP on it. Every weirdo and their kid who visited her would download another bit of malware/toolbars/whatever, and about once a month I would have to fix it. So I put Ubuntu on it, and it literally never had a problem again. I'd use Mint now, but if you're doing some basic games and web browsing, Linux is fine. I game with my pc, which uses Linux Mint, and the only issue I had was getting the Nvidia graphics card working. It wasn't really hard for someone who builds computers but it might be difficult for a "normal" user.
Going to have to go with TOS v1.64
Lol! Super-fast and boots in a few seconds. No need to faf around with a workbench disk!
Linux
I like Zorin Linux.
I would not wish Window on my worst enemies.
Absolutely depends on the use case.
Are they buying a new computer to be a jack-of-all-trades? Simple, they should get either a windows computer or a Mac that suits their needs, depending on what they’re comfortable with and what gets you a better price to quality ratio.
Are they on an old computer of specs that are good enough for today? I’d say either windows or Linux, depending on what software they’ll need to use.
Are they on an old computer of not the best specs? Either Linux or (trigger warning) chromeOS flex, since both can certainly revive an old computer, and this again depends on what they’ll need to use but also what UX they want.
Are they buying something new for a simple workflow? I’d say a Chromebook, sure many of them are shit, but frankly, if all you need is web browsing and maybe some android and Linux apps through the VM containers, it’s actually alright, even despite it being google based vendor lock-in. They also have a decade of support as standard iirc, and if it has issues, the reset functionality is actually incredibly easy.
Bare in mind, all of these have downsides and upsides, different visibility to the general, non tech savvy public, and different hardware, software, compatibility, etc.
Unless you are looking to learn nix, go with Windows or Apple.
Unless you made sure all the hardware works and you want to fuck around Linux ain't for normies despite what this forum is going to screech at you.
I agree. I am probably going to put my 70+ year old on Linux mint but I’ll have to do tech support
I've done so decades ago & they only ever needed me for distro upgrades (now not even that in Tumbleweed).
They never bought Windows or macOS only hardware.
What sort of things do you expect to tech support them (that would differ from them using mac or win)?
(Aside from the initial os install.)
I wanna mention this: If there are niche movies/shows you wanna watch but you can't find a torrent for it... the the only way to really watch it is the mainstream sites and those require DRM and if you run Linux, Netflix, for example, would run on L3 Widewine instead of L1 Widewine and that means SD content only...
so yeah... depends on how this "average user" really want to watch niche content... or is even comfortable with the idea of torrents
(I've personally found a bunch of stuff that I literally cannot find torrents for... so yeah... there's that...)
I don't think I've ever come across niche content that was available on a mainstream streaming site but not as torrent or on a direct streaming site.
Schitt's Creek got removed from debrid for copyright violation so I've been watching it on Amazon 🤮
Run a webbrowser inside of a Windows environment, on Linux?
WINE/Proton?
Afaik, it uses secure boot and/or TPM shenanigans to decrypt L1 Widewine, so I don't think emulating it would work.
Btw, Unlocking bootloader on Android also cause the video to revert to SD even if you haven't replace the rom yet.
Oh dear god.
Welp, I tried.
But at this point I'm convinced that the Windows implementation of secureboot just basically is a direct to FBI/NSA/CIA backdoor/wiretap so uh...
Like, come on.
What other software just regularly directly rewrites the BIOS/UEFI when you try to fight it? Or just, when a Windows update happens?
Its a bootkit, as far as I'm concerned.
Yeah that's a bit of a tough problem to crack, lol.
Gentoo Linux :p Nah if they're an average user, Mac OS is actually quite decent (especially on the M series Macs) and doesn't have all the bs Windows does while it's actually quite secure with lockdown mode.
MacOS (less with each release). One of the Linux distros that aims to minimize the "Linux" experience for new users, like Mint. There are others that are also good for new users who don't care what's underneath. I'll let others suggest them as I don't keep track of them all.
MacOS, tbh that's all the average person needs
if they're just doing web browsing - linux
if they have an iphone - macos
really depends what they want to do
An immutable Linux system. Especially if there a total noon.
If they won't be doing any modern gaming (like 2025/6 new releases), then Linux Mint.
If they want to do modern gaming, I highly recommend Fedora (KDE Spin for most, GNOME if you really like Mac's UX).
If you want to do mostly gaming only (not heavy work, dedicated gaming setup), then Bazzite which is a downstream of Fedora.
Mint is a bit easier for a new user, but Fedora arguably gives you the latest Linux has to offer at excellent stability. They also have some nice defaults like BTRFS, zswap, SElinux that you don't have to worry about configuring manually in any way.
EDIT:
I should add that you probably shouldn't listen to the average random youtube video on this topic, because a metric ton of them fail to highlight the issues of many distros, desktop environments, software, etc because they provide a dumb tier list based off of their personal interests or something that they read from each distro's description without actually taking the time to thoroughly test.
ZorinOS is not a real answer just because they advertise parity with Windows. There are plenty of distros that achieve the same thing, better, and for free.
The best thing about linux is that you can try it out first without installing. Really play around with it and make sure it suits what you want.
I've been using Zorin for a couple of years and recently installed it on my desktop. It's free.
I'm a Windows hater, but I can't in good conscience recommend Mac because of the vendor lock-in, and I'm not going to recommend Linux to someone just needing a computer to use when they need it.
Let's not joke ourselves. I would, however, offer to install Enterprise LTSC and disable as much of the telemetry as possible. After that point, their privacy is in their own hands, but I'll offer as many tips as I can.
If they are even slightly technically inclined and I know them enough to know they are capable of any level of troubleshooting, I'd recommend Mint.
In what way do you define “just needing a computer to use when they need it”?
I have several family members and friends who know absolutely nothing about computers. They all use Linux and the amount of IT-support needed has never been lower.
Widespread application compatibility is there for Windows devices. Whatever they feel like they need to install at any point in the future, there's an unequivocally higher chance that they'll be able to get it if they're using a Windows device.
If they're specifically looking to get a PC, I'm assuming they're wanting more capability than what their phone can give them. So whatever that thing is, they will more than likely have more options using a Windows machine.
Without more information, I'm not recommending a Linux system in an absolute manner. I'm glad things worked out in your anecdote.
As someone who has used all three (I main my Mac for school, Linux for my gaming PC, and windows for VR gaming)
The answer is either windows or Mac.
Mac if they can afford it, windows if they just want to use it.
Macos > Ubuntu / Fedora
As I hate Apple, after years of experience I can say that macos is the simplest and the most stable os.
With linux I had different issues, starting from apps that are not supported, ending with issues with drivers…
iOS
ChromeOS or Linux Mint
A lot of these answers were preference but this one is just incorrect.
Windows. If you do anything work related, you need to be able to use excel and word. It's still annoying shit, but it works and it's more stable/easier to use than linux. I have tried both. I say this with poison spitting out of my mouth, because I don't like the Microsoft AI and forced advertisement shit, but overall, the OS performs better, because desktop linux still has massive problems in 2026.
The linux community may claim that you can "do anything" on a linux system and "make it your own", but if you're not a 24-year-old tech god who can code, it's unfeasible. I tried several times to go on forums and ask for help regarding certain customization changes. Sometimes I got help, but it was very complicated. Most of the time, nobody answered in those threads or if they did, they blamed me for the "problem" and wrote stuff that didn't help at all. At some point you gotta go: Okay, this is nice and everything, but I want to play or work at some point and this is not capable of doing at least one of the two. And there is no official tech support to help you out if you need it. When I simply wanted to create 1 bug report, I had to create 4 different accounts on different bug report websites and they all got closed, because "it's not my department" or - I shit you not - "it's a serious problem and bug, but I don't have time to fix it".
I tried Linux Mint Cinnamon. The installer was so fucking shit, that it didn't recogneize the hard drive and therefore - without warning or telling me where it would install - tried to install itself on the very same USB-stick the install files (.iso) were on, erasing the install files in the process and crashing the entire install, while temporarily bricking the fucking system. The promise of "games are working now on Steam/linux due to Proton compatibility overlay" are greatly exaggerated. I tried starting about 15 games and of those only 2 would even start up. If you would post on the discussion forums, other (linux?) users would just respond with "but it works for me". Well, gosh, thanks you piece of shit, but that doesn't help me identify or fix the problem. And trying to run Word or Excel? "Oh man, you need a virtual machine just to run that, bro! You can't run it natively, because xhgaoohofa. Who even needs that, bro? Use LibreOffice, bro! It's enough, bro!" It's fucking shit. Get it running, I need to work. And your 500 shitty fonts in LibreOffice won't convince anyone that you're a professional. I want fucking Times New Roman and Calibri out of the box, because that's the standard for my office work, sorry.
Using Waterfox was a shit show. It's faster than regular Firefox, but then it proceeded to delete all of my passwords by default every time I closed it, without asking whether I wanted to do that or not beforehand. Then I had to find the fucking hidden option to disable that. I did. But this piece of shit software has a bug. So it ignores that I selected that "hidden" option and continues to delete all my account data and passwords. And linux bros will be like: "Oh, that's your fault, bro! Our linux programs have no bugs, bro [despite it being listed as an official bug on the fucking GitHub page - but they don't read that]! You have to use an external password manager, bro! It's totally safe to insert all your account data into a program from an unknown software developer without back-ups, bro!"
I can't even change the fucking window closing button design in linux mint without changing the theme of the entire fucking system. The buttons on there are MacOS-inspired and fucking tiny. I want easy to click big boxes like on Windows.
I still got that linux laptop, but I rarely use it, because everything is a fucking chore or doesn't work out of the box. The update manager - now that thing is GOOD! But I just want to set it to do update shit automatically and I can't. So every time I use this fucking system, I have to spend my time on authorizing those fucking update installs with my password manually.
Then there is the forking issue. There are 100000000 distros, because the developers are autistic, antisocial shitheads who don't understand that 1 distro with more integrated customization options would be sufficient and more efficient. So they all want their own distro and create a confusing mess where nobody understands what's happening anymore except for a few IT guys who can troubleshoot the shit they're fabricating on a regular intervall. What if I want to work AND game on the same system? I don't want to choose between linux mint and fucking bazzite. I want the functionality of both in one system. That's what Windows has managed to do for over 30 years now. Get your shit together. Same for the support. When I have a problem with the Linux Mint install launcher, I have to be redirected from Linux Mint support to fucking Ubuntu support, because the launcher is actually fucking Ubuntu and then Ubuntu redirects me to a special Ubuntu launcher support site where I have to file another report and then the developers/maintainers there redirect me to their personal GitHub page to file another report with another entirely different bug report form there only to tell me afterwards that s/he has no time to fix it, even though the bug is legit and then CLOSES the bug report. Excuse me, but get 1 (!) support website please and redirect reports INTERNALLY. I will NEVER file a bug report for a linux system again, that I can tell you. Go FUCK yourselves, linux mint developers!
And I don't understand the fucking hype of all these idiots around Steam. Steam is not open-source, it's not free (you have to buy the games with a big fee % for Valve). It's a multi-billion dollar for-profit, closed-system, privately owned company that has said "fuck you" to everyone who wanted Half Life 3 or the next Left 4 Dead for years. Despite having BILLIONS of USD at their disposal to make it happen. Don't get me started on fucking kid gambling with loot boxes and microtransactions in Counter Strike etc. Fuck these idiots! The dominant gaming market and launcher should be free, open source, non-profit and owned by everyone. I don't want to finance another yacht for Gaben. I want to finance more games, compatibility updates, optimized hardware drivers, remasters of retro games and so on.
To be honest, I hate a lot of todays technology industry and I have good fucking reasons for it. Computers were made to make our lives easier, but all they have managed to do is to make many people more socially isolated and working on them more of a chore than the original fucking paper work. Prove of that? You're currently reading a piece of fucking text of a person who you don't know instead of talking to a friend in person. Probably in a darkened room cave so that the light doesn't interfere with the screen brightness.
EDIT: If you downvote my comment, at least have the balls to comment why.
SteamOS is open source.
Proton is open source.
Steam the game platform is closed source.
Hopefully it is obvious why open sourcing a payment processing application with tens of millions of user and bank accounts tied into it would be highly problematic.
You might as well be demanding PayPal or Epic Games Store to be open source.
There are 0 games I have that do not work on Proton.
This is because I don't play games with rootkits.
You may have heard these referred to as 'Kernel Level Anticheats'.
They're rootkits, and nearly every single major anti-cheat system that exists has at least one game where its been made to work with/on linux.
All game devs that say its too hard or impossible to make AC work on linux are incompetent or lying.
I have absolutely no idea how you managed to screw up Waterfox, I've been using it for like a year + with 0 problems.
I've never encountered any behavior from it like what you describe as a default setting.
I have never had to write any code to get ... I don't think any version of linux I've ever used, to work, as an OS.
... what... specifically, is the 'functionality' of both Linux Mint and Bazzite that you apparently only get out of one or the other?
Like genuinely, what does that even mean?
I play games on Bazzite, and I've also compiled 03DE from scratch on Bazzite, I tinker around in Godot and Blender and various other dev tool type things regularly.
It is entirely possible to work and play on either Linux Mint or Bazzite.
With LibreOffice, yeah, you don't get all of the proprietary Windows fonts directly out of the box, but uh, Bottles is a neat flatpak that rapidly sets up a Windows environment, with a GUI, and its a few clicks to add the 'all fonts' dependency, snd then voila, you have your proprietary fonts.
What you almost certainly are is a jaded Windows poweruser who expects non Windows operating systems to function and be tweaked and follow the same paradigms as Windows.
They don't.
They are different operating systems.
They work differently.
Applying your Windows based intuition will lead you to break things.
It wouldn't be. In fact, it would be a lot safer, because there are more eyes on the code. You have to control the code integration authorization process obviously.
Okay, I demand it. What now?
Well, I have 13 out of 15 games that do not work on Proton, Proton Hotfix and Proton Experimental. And none of them are multiplayer or rootkits. And as you say later, you're on Bazzite, not Linux Mint. But of course you're the center of the universe, so all you say must be right and universal, my lord? It's impossible for other people to have a different experience and problems with the system, right?
Who gives a shit about what the devs say. For me only the end result counts. My games either run or they don't. And currently. 15/15 run on Win11 and 2/15 on Linux Mint. That's just how it is at the moment. That's reality. I don't like it either. Sorry, not sorry.
See, this is exactly the kind of "IT WAS YOU, MY PROGRAM IS FLAWLESS!"-behaviour of linux users that I was referencing. You're incompetent, ignorant people who can't admit if there is a problem with a program. The bug is/was listed on the project page by the way, but of course you were too fucking lazy to check.
Well, that doesn't mean it's not happening, you incompetent hack. Someone can have a motor failure or a flat tire on his car, while your car still runs fine. Doesn't mean that's the driver's/user's fault.
You just said you only use Bazzite. So how would you fucking know whether it works on Linux Mint or not?
Yeah, I've heard that "just a few clicks" bit a bit too often from linux users now. I don't want an extra Windows environment. I want the program to fucking work natively. That's why I'm saying that Windows is easier to use now. That you're emphasizing the "proprietary" part just shows how fucking salty you are that it's not integrated into LibreOffice. I'm sorry, but my law firm uses that font and that's how it is. They're good fonts. Not everything you don't like is bad.
Oh my! I expect an OS to function! And to be improved! How horrible and arrogant!
You know, I WANT TO switch to linux, because I don't like Microsoft either. But the linux desktop environment doesn't offer the same native functionality and comfort that I need to switch my main pcs to this OS. I don't wanna deal with the problems. And to be honest: I don't want to deal with people like you who blame every problem with the system or programs on the user. Keep seething. I will switch when I think the time is right.
Holy shit you need to calm down.
Uh.
No.
If you fully open source an entire payment processor app, a competent coder can rather rapidly figure out how to reverse engineer its security mechanisms and then develop exploits and then do fraud and identity theft and money laundering.
Sure, there is 'open source banking/finance' as a movement to open source and standardize various APIs to increase integration of certain segments of banking, but... you can't have a fully open source financial system that goes all the way through all of its security and accounts and such, 100% of it, unless you switch everything over to some kind of crypto currency.
... which has a lot of its own complications and problems.
Well that's a very silly thing to say, which further showcases that you don't really understand the things you are complaining about / frustrated with.
Which ones?
Whats your hardware?
What even is your actual OS/system setup?
Maybe we could try to troubleshoot them, instead of screaming?
I didn't say any of that, but ok.
I again didn't say that.
I said I've never had a problem with it, I have not encountered the problem you encountered.
You maybe wanna ... link to bug?
There are lots of programs with lots of ongoing or closed issues and bugs with lots of software.
I can't tell whats going on with your setup and your problem because you're sceaming like a lunatic.
So again, chill the fuck out, I never said its not happening or didn't happen.
Realize that you're angry and confused and enraged and lashing out at people making neutral statements, because you're attributing meaning to them that is not present.
Like, you're the reason why IT support people have PTSD.
No, I didn't.
I said I am using Bazzite right now.
I've been using some kind or another of linux for almost 15 years.
I am by no means an absolute expert on all things linux, but I do have a fair deal of general linux knowledge as well as more specific knowledge with the linux distros and applications I've spent more time using.
I just asked you to actually identify, describe the things that you want to be able to do, that you think are only doable on either Mint or Bazzite.
Maybe there legitimately are some things that are much easier or more difficult to do on one or the other!
I don't know which though, because you are again, extremely hostile, confused, and screaming like a madman.
... ok... then... don't expect to be able to run too much Windows programs/features/content on linux.
You realize that WINE or Proton... are windows environments, on linux, right?
Badically no .exe or .msi or Windows specific program will run on linux natively.
You... have to set up a windows environment, a set of translation layers, like WINE and Proton or the Soda variant that Bottles uses... to do that.
No... I am emphasizing that because it is a highly relevant factor in explaining why/how open source software legally cannot freely bundle and distribute other kinds of code that they don't have the IP/Copyright/Patent/Trademark rights to.
Evidently your law firm doesn't do much work around software IP law.
I also never said the fonts were bad, you just made that up.
Like... yes, what you are describing here, not having out of the box support, in LibreOffice, to open a .docx file and have all the supported fonts, yep, that is a legitimate problem for apparently your intended use case.
Generally, in an office/productivity context, its a good idea to make sure all the stuff you are going to be using frequently is compatible with each other... before you make a significant change over to a different program for a core part of the workflow.
People get paid 6 or 7 figures to determine the best way to go about doing that... I guess you just thought that such due dilligence wasn't a relevant factor for your personal situation.
I would attempt to find a solution for you, but you've already said that it needs to just work natively, or its worthless, and I'm not aware of any solutions to your scenario that just work natively, given the other preferences and constraints you've indicated.
They do, but you're confused and uniformed and very angry, and:
You do not want to have to humble yourself and realize how much fundamental, core 'knowledge' you have that is either wrong or missing.
... Yes... I am the seething one here.
Not the extremely the extremely hostile and confused person.
For a person who works in a law firm, you're shockingly bad at communication and image management.
No, I just realized that you're an incompetent shithead who doesn't have the humility to admit that the OS or programs can have flaws and blames it on the user.
And this just comes after...
You delude yourself into somehow thinking that I will - after that - now start to cater to you, post links et cetera? You wrote that textwall for nothing. Go eat shit.
And by the way: I did work in IT and IP law for some time (European laws make it annoying though). And you sound exactly like the kind of programmer who thinks his programming is brilliant until he gets sued with a six or seven figure claim for his disfunctional shit insert surprised Pikachu face Maybe ask the questions first next time.
Honestly, I can’t understand how browsers are still allowed to store passwords in 2026. That functionality should have been torn out of them half a decade ago for the massive security flaw that it is.
That's not about BitWarden or 1Password. That was about the password storage system integrated into Waterfox. And no, they are locally stored and relatively safe. I have used that system for 20+ years and I have never had any of my account data stolen.
And I do actually keep them separately and on paper. Laught about it if you want to, but it's easy and most reliable. I've had pc's die on me, so I'm happy to have it that way.
Why would you trust companies like BitWarden or 1Password? It's the same as with EncroChat or similar services. Agencies start up a company that promises to protect your sensitive data. Then you give them your sensitive data. But they put a backdoor into their programs. So now they have all your sensitive data. I don't know who is behind those companies so I don't trust them. With Mozilla, that's just an old habit and nothing of essence is in there.
I have a different way to do it, but I'm not going to disclose it here. Just saying that in the last 25 years, not a single one of my accounts got hacked by my fault. I had 1 Ubisoft account hacked, but that was because their servers got hacked and the password was stolen from there.
Because they are end-to-end encrypted, as evidenced by their account-recovery mechanisms: they cannot offer one.
Why? Because the encryption on your data files is based - in small part - on your master password. So if you cannot get back in with your master password, they can’t get in without it, either.
The only exception is corporate accounts, which are linked back to a master account made by your employer, which has rights to access anything in your specific account and who can expose company-wide accounts to you based on groups and rules.
Plus, BitWarden also has the capability to entirely self-host, keeping their public servers and domains entirely out of the loop. It’s just between you and the server you configure yourself.
LastPass had a mere security breach, and they suffered a 50+% market share drop between 2001 and 2024. An active backdoor would drive any company to 0% market share damn quick, which in business terms is called a fatal level of risk -- a business killer for anyone in the security industry.
Bitwarden, in particular, has openly committed itself to fighting any attempt to legislate a back door into their product, and - like other companies like Signal - would rather exit an entire market than build a back door into their product.
Wow.
I’m not laughing… I feel sorry for you.
I put the mention of Excel and paper options in as a dare from colleagues. They didn’t think you would out yourself as such a security anti-intellectual.
For the record, not only can you script secure BitWarden exports to your storage enclave of choice, but you can even script exports to KeePass for offline access.
Granted, with an export to KeePass there are things like ToTP and secondary/tertiary URLs that won’t come along for the ride, as it’s not something that KeePass does, but most everything else will.
X-Doubt.
Ubisoft did not store their passwords in plaintext. Those passwords were all hashed appropriately.
If your password was successfully un-hashed and used, it was because either,
In all three cases, it’s user error on your part.
https://haveibeenpwned.com/
Check it out, it’s wild. Betchya more than just Ubisoft will pop up.
Correction: They TELL YOU that they can't offer one. Doesn't mean there actually isn't a way. Smartphone messaging apps offer end-to-end encryption. Yet, the NSA can regularly crack those. Why? Not necessarily, because they crack the encryption, but because they crack the keyboard systems you use to input your password. You can do the same with any password manager program.
Only if it's discovered, properly delegated to the news and so on. And no, an active backdoor would NOT drive any company to 0% market share damn quick. NEWS about such a backdoor do that. And there ARE and were such backdoors. Just look at EncroChat and Microsoft Outlook for example.
Then, you need to learn about NOBUS approaches. If you have a billion dollar NOBUS approach, normal mortals like you and me won't find those backdoors. And they will be accessed in a very smart way that you will very likely not be aware about.
Yeah, how nice and helpful. That's surely make me think better of you and not as a salty linux user.
I know, and flash harddrives can fail. And exporting them takes time etc. Putting them on paper is fucking easy. You make a .docx or .txt file, input the information, print and file it and you're done. Unless there is a fucking fire, that shit is secure for 20+ years without a problem. Your pc can break, your harddrives can break, your USB sticks can break or get lost, but that paper is very likely going to still be there. Plus, it's super quick to read, transport and update. Bonus points if you use an easy encryption system.
Ah, the good old linux user "I know it all better than you"-bullshit. But no, actually, you're wrong. I got an e-mail from Ubisoft, apologizing for it, because they did not store it appropriately. And yes, I'm aware of haveibeenpwned.com and I check it once a year or so. And by the way: That website is integrated into the Firefox password manager, so it automatically tells you if such a report exists for one of your passwords. And no, there are not any other password breaches for any of my other accounts in the last 20+ years. So go fuck yourself.
Remember how I said that linux users tend to blame every problem on the user? This is it. I'm sorry, but you're an ignorant, incompetent hack who pretends to know things he doesn't know. You know what? Actually I'm not sorry at all.
Holy shit, this fucking guy.
Dude, your comment is about a decade out if date at a minimum.
What? All that linux mint stuff happened in November 2025 if that's what you mean.
But I'm used to linux users pretending that there are no problems by now. Your system has bugs just like any other system and your ignorance of it will keep people away who want reliable and working systems.