I do industrial programming. Everything is so far behind that yelling at the "computers" does nothing. Physical violence is just about the only thing they respect.
Hey now, the NEC provides ample protection against user stupidity, and I do my damndest to take it a step further. If a user is able to do something so catastrophically stupid despite me better engineering efforts, perhaps they should read up on darwinism.
Yeah, newer generations have been raised on tech that “just worked” consistently. They never had to do any deep troubleshooting, because they never encountered any major issues. They grew up in a world where the hard problems were already figured out, so they were insulated from a lot of the issues that allowed millennials to learn.
They never got a BSOD from a faulty USB driver. They never had to reinstall an OS after using Limewire to download “Linkin_Park-Numb.mp3.exe” on the family computer. Or hell, even if they did get tricked by a malicious download, the computer’s anti-virus automatically killed it before they were even able to open it. They never had to manually install OS updates. They never had to figure out how to get their sound card working with a new game. They never had to manually configure their network settings.
All of these things were chances for millennials to learn. But since the younger generations never encountered any issues, they never had to figure their own shit out.
Or reinstall the OS on the family computer because one of your dumbass siblings downloaded a sUpeR cOoL song from one of their friends on MSN Messenger.
It's not so much that the tech just worked. Often it doesn't work. The difference is that when it doesn't work it's not user-serviceable. Up until maybe 2010 or so, when things broke there was often something a user could do to fix them. But, especially with the introduction of locked-down mobile phone OSes, that's not true anymore. Now it's just "wait for an update".
Even as a teenager (didn't have a computer before that) I had infinite patience with computers, you can fix/change/make anything with enough time, nothing will be better if you get mad and ignore reading and making sure you understand what's happening. Seeing how young people handle tech now is fucking depressing, they just click past everything without reading, get mad and rage quit after 30 seconds of something not working and think anything that's more than two clicks/taps is too complicated.
Young, most old people I know either don't know anything and are fine with that, they get help for even the simplest things, or they can handle it themselves without problems.
I don't know much of Warhammer lore, so I had to look up tech priests:
"No longer the master of its creations, the Cult Mechanicus is enslaved to the past. It maintains the glories of yesteryear with rite, dogma and edict instead of true discernment and comprehension. For instance, even the theoretically simple process of activating a vehicle's engine is preceded by the application of ritual oils, the burning of sacred resins and the chanting of long and complex hymns. "
Its clear to me the author of this block of text was having trouble starting his vehicle's engine, and was pissed off when he/she was asked to put in a ticket before help would be rendered to the him/her.
If you’ve never read it Vernon Vinge a fire upon the deep had a type of programmers in the future known as programmer archaeologists. The tldr is nobody wrote new code just dug up old code and bolted it together. I used to think that was silly, after llms lately and dealing with interns I no longer think of it as fiction.
I've always viewed programmer archaeology is just trying to understand your old code or the team you are working withs old code and also trying to understand the why it was done this way.
I think AI coding is a programmer archeologist based on your definition, and I think I may start using that now.
Depends, my browser has mostly taken over as my pdf viewer and I think it lacks the functionality but if I were to install a cracked copy of Acrobat Pro or PhantomPDF then that's like a 2 click operation.
I once wanted to move all the files in the folder was I in to another folder and I did something like mv /* ../. What is important here is that I did /* and not ./*. Fortunately it was only a raspberry pi so it went fast to flash the SD card.
Also, how did you go about reinstalling VLC if you deleted all dependencies?
I agree that regex is an important thing to learn. Not sure any old LLM would do a very good job, and I hope that no tool replaces people actually learning how to write regex.
I'm not sure what you mean about the average person outside the millennial generation not understanding them, though. Maybe I'm mistaken, but I don't think the 'average' person in any generation knows what regex is. Unless there is some reason the average millennial was actually exposed to them and forced to understand them?
As for being doubtful that anyone could understand them aside from a millennial, I assume you're being hyperbolic? Sort of sounds like "Kids these days can never learn what I learned!" (I'm teasing).
Anyway I'm in agreement with you. This thread did remind me of a pretty neat project that, while still requiring domain knowledge, could save some time and be a good learning tool without being as fallible of a crutch as an LLM.
Have not tried it, and am not an experienced developer, so I am curious to your thoughts/criticisms: https://github.com/pemistahl/grex
That's a good idea actually. I hate writing regex, so I asked Gemini to do it just now. Once I explained it in the format it wanted: what the source would be, what I wanted filtered and the language I planned to use it with it spat out a perfect expression without me needing to even use my brain. Technology is wonderful.
I'm sure LLMs can get it right, but if I was going to use a tool for something like that, I'd want one that was more deterministic like the linked tool claims to be.
Yeah, I am exaggerating a bit, but I’ve not met anyone under the age of 25 that’s even remotely interested in putting in the effort to learn (anecdotal, I’m aware). Many have expressed wanting to learn, but then they never follow up when I try and pursue teaching anything.
And I’m not necessarily saying that the average person already understands them, but someone from our generation will probably pick them up far more quickly then your average Gen Z/Gen A.
Maybe what you're claiming is true, I don't know whether is 'probable'.
I poked fun at this before, but I don't think it came across. If I'm not mistaken, millennials were the subject of a lot of boomer complaints about "kids these days", being called lazy or entitled etc..
Maybe zoomers are dumber, maybe they're full of microplastics and entitlement. Or maybe this thread is an example of the "chastise the next generation" history repeating. One generation is lumped together and shat on by older generations, some of which then make similar claims about the next generation(s) all backed up with nothing but anecdotes and confirmation bias.
I'm not trying to take dig at you, but I do want to highlight the similarities between claims like these and when a boomer might've said "I know a millennial who spends more on coffee than I would, so millennials are bad with their money. Millennials, who are bad with their money, cant afford houses. Yet they act entitled to homeownership, and so, they are lazy." It's a claim that assumes something about the integrity and intelligence of a swath of people and ignores the systemic issues that made homeownership hard for many millennials compared to past generations.
Again, maybe you are right, I do not know. I don't think, though, that boomer rhetoric that shat on millennials as a whole was particularly accurate or productive.
I certainly don’t blame them for these pitfalls I don’t think it’s laziness. It’s 100% a lack of education. Teachers have all but given up trying to get kids to pay attention in class. It’s become a snowball effect.
When I was in school, most of my classmates took it seriously and took much of the education at face value. And almost all of my classmates are people that could handle the full Office suite.
Now it seems every kid thinks they already know computers because they started with an iPad at the age of 4, but what they don’t realize is phones and tablets are the equivalent to toys.
You don’t ever actually learn how to use a phone. Just individual apps. People don’t even really browse the internet blindly anymore.
I think it’s probably the difference that a lot of boomers probably saw with cars in the 2000s-2010s. It used to be everyone had a rough idea of how a car worked and most people could learn in a year or two how to do basic stuff.
Now it’s all a closed magic box requiring a full technical degree. Phones fell the same. Its a magic box that they never had the opportunity to wonder how it worked.
Silly millennial, even Boomers were using regexen in the 70s, and they were commonplace by the time GenX nerds started playing with them in the 80s and 90s. Your elders also know that regexen are fun but extremely dangerous, and should only be used in cases where they won't make things much worse.
Understand and operate any arbitrary interface without having to have it explained to me by rote
Omg, this all the way. I'm in a class for learning AWS stuff and its crazy the amount of people who suddenly can't do anything when one button is on a different screen than the instructions told them it was. Like come on, use some basic thinking skills.
Another infuriating situation was having to do a class on Microsoft Office. It was infuriating because it was incredibly basic stuff. I've never used Outlook before, but I completed each task they asked of me in like 5 seconds because I have a basic understanding of how software works.
Bro that shits like 30 years old and most langs released after lets say 2010 have put that stuff in the backseat for backwards compatibility. Anyway I get your point
operate any arbitrary interface
Dont believe it. Behold the shittyness of modern UI
I typed my comment above on my mobile keyboard. I'm just using the standard Google keyboard on my Pixel, nothing fancy. Em and en dash are available by holding on the hyphen, and the ellipsis is available by holding on the period (annoyingly, only when on the numbers/symbols page).
That is one ability that doesn't really belong. That's much more of a Boomer thing. Not all boomers, obviously, but the ones who were computer experts were the ones who had to learn machine code. By the time even Gen X came along, assembler and C were already much more common.
My uncle is GenX and way smarter than my millennial ass. They paved the way for child free poppin off and being tech savvy with a normal tech free upbringing.
Anecdotal I know. But always funny how self centered us millenials can be thinking were the last normal generation.
I figured they were talking about the Oregon Trail generation. It's made up of the folks who were old enough and young enough to play the game in schools and spans across parts of X and millennials.
That's a great way to describe our larger cohort! I'm going to use that. I've got so many friends across the Gen-X to Millenial range that all feel like members of the same generation.
This always surprises me as I'm younger millennial and my Gen X dad always feels more technologically behind than me.
But it's funny because I'm only so into computers because of him as he had things like Windows 3.1 and 95 and 98 in our home from a young age and he even went to school for C++ but he doesn't really remember it (it got him an accounting gig) and his pursual of technology these days is pretty limited to pre-built stuff from Samsung and Sony than any real grasp of how it works. I struggle to get him to show even passing interest in something like Linux (like, I get liking Windows; you grew up with it: you're more comfortable with it. But not even curiosity, even if you'll never use it?).
Expert on Excel and OneNote (because it's his daily bread-and-butter) but probably would ask for my help on rotating a PDF.
What OP describes sounds much more aligned to my millennial peers than the bulk of Gen. X I know.
Some can't. Computers weren't commonplace until many GenXers were in their 20s, so some never learned. Those that did learn often learned the deep magic.
I'm pretty computer literate (I'm using Fedora silver blue now and I'm a cyber college student), and I'm gen z.
I hated our digital literacy units in school, because it was always the most braindead shit every year. Stuff that you shouldn't have to explain to a person every year, like digital footprint (think before you post), make sure it's a https website, and misinformation vs disinformation. I wanna cry because my tech and society class I'm taking right now feels like the same shit, but I'm paying now.
I'm not sure how they should revamp, but maybe they need to show modern examples like the honey scam, the thousands of Tiktok influencers who admitted they lied about the stuff they sold when they thought the service was shutting down, and how Google search is forcing shitty AI results. But we do have the unit, it just feels braindead to anyone like me who gives a damn about the services they use online. But I'm a nerd who looks at privacy/cyber shit for fun for hours, not TikTok dual screen braindead...
I mean, people always think teaching not to bully people is boringly obvious and it is, if you stop to think about the concept in theory, but it can be different, when you're in the heat of the moment; teaching the fundamentals do help people, even if painfully clear to those at a higher level. I think those're actually pretty good.
The issue (as you've kinda noted) is they never go beyond that. The Honey scan might be hard to impart as, if I didn't know some of how the system worked because I program for a living, it would've seemed like magic gibberish. The other two are good ones, though.
Honestly, teaching the fundamentals of how the intervals work in some way I think would go far. The number of people who don't know what file extensions are always worry me.
I think Zoomers need a generational divide in their generation, tbh. In my experience, older Zoomers are intelligent, capable, motivated, and largely leftist. For some unknown reason though, younger Zoomers are ignorant, prudish, too easily contented, and weirdly conservative. I have yet to understand what happened to cause the divide, and I can't point to any stats or evidence to support this belief, but anecdotally I have noticed this trend within my own life and spheres of influence.
We got a new kid around 19 working at our office for processing data and I hate how true this is. The amount of times I've had to say "No, you have to double click to open folders" is entirely too many. Either that or "You have to actually right click on the icon you want to copy you can't just click anywhere on the screen."
I teach undergrads, and every year basic computer skills get worse and worse. I guess it’s not entirely their fault, but things like just asking them to save a file to their computer is insanely difficult. Lots of universities are starting to get task forces to figure out how to teach (or where to teach rather) basic digital skills, it it’s all going to hit the workforce really soon en masse.
Let it all implode. I'm sure the companies will thrive with this reality with the bonus of AI slop on top that all these people will be using and putting in all system across our society.
I mean, I know millennials who don't own a computer. Just phones. They got young kids. Not sure if those are alpha at this point or whatever, but how are they supposed to learn it if they got nowhere to practice?
Quite a few working class kids and teens grow up like this.
You can absolutely configure Windows to open folders -- and all other shortcuts -- with a single click, and IIRC one of the knocks against Windows ME was that this was the default option. And it was godawful, along with the "click" noise it made on navigation. (I think it was WinME. I've probably suppressed the memory, and rightly so.)
But the long and short of it is if you want consistency between your UI's in that regard you can indeed have it.
I think I tried it years ago. But it didn't really work with the windows ui for some reason. Nowadays I don't use it often enough to bother personalising it.
It only relatively recently occurred to me that the vast majority of people use the Internet either solely or mostly with a mobile phone. It blew my mind since I grew up with PCs and modems and the Internet is so much better on a large screen that's not half full of ads.
Absolutely. At 10yo I've tried my best to teach my kid video editing and basic computer use. A bit ago I made her network two computers using chatGPT as a guide. So freaking proud of her.
Thinking of forcing her to do something new. Does Roblox run on Linux?
Minecraft is a blast! You can buy it and then throw the awful Microsoft launcher in the trash. There areuch better bootleg launchers (i.e. don't force login). Or just get the bootleg launcher without buying the game.
I have bought the game five times on different platforms by now. I'm not buying it anymore.
My kids also had a lot of fun choosing and figuring out the plethora of mods available.
Definitely, and modded Minecraft has taken a great game and made it so much better. The "Create" mod alone has made MC so much more than what Mojang intended.
And the launchers available for Linux let you use modpacks from every source including FTB, letting you forgo a launcher full of ads.
with some hassle bedrock can also work iirc. might be the android version though.
That said, I forget which one is which and which was the renaming, but luanti/minetest/minecraftia/mineclone. One is a free open source engine, two are different takes on minecraft clones that are mods for the base engine. Missing features can be covered via addititonal more specific mods.
The main benefit is that its actually free with no microtransactions that can make you broke if your kids figure out how to use your credit card. It also performs way better than both minecraft versions on even older hardware. If the kids can learn free art software like krita or gimp among others, they can make their own skins instead of buying them for minecraft. Pixel art is pretty easy to copy too.
roblax is extremely absolutely vile, manipulative, and not a safe place for anyone let alone children. it's genuinely worse than 4chan for some time now.
What makes you say this? The parental controls are pretty good. Just don't give access to age range stuff that you feel the kid isn't ready for. And turn off the chat. The only thing that bothers me is some of the annoying sounds some of the experiences use.
I've been told some pretty fucked up shit slips through the cracks like 'holocaust simulator' or 'beating pregnant women' or assorted bizarre block people sex dungeon stuff, then the literal real money gambling paired with fomo, child labour exploitation through game development hopes and dreams combined with extremely exploitative advertisement options.
Maybe parents from exactly the correct generation can handle the parental controls but the parents I know IRL gave their kids free reign and the ones that cut it off after seeing soulless violent content had a hard time with the kids being straight up addicted. Kid's shouldn't even be on online stuff since the average parent has no idea how to use anything other than an iphone and even that they barely know shit.
Back in my day we played reader rabbit and math blaster off of five and a quarter floppies
OK so I have a pet theory about this. I grew up in a period when computing involved friction and lack of ready resources to ease that friction. Solving problems involved actual research, in the research process more and more details of how computers operate were exposed to me. I had the time and focus to learn and the motivation to stick at it when it was difficult. I then did something horrible to almost everyone who asked me for help, I removed that friction.
With the noblest of intentions I prevented everyone around me from experiencing that friction, I made it easy. Consequently I caused those people around me to miss out on those basics I struggled with. I uncovered the arcane lore of endianess so everyone around me who wasn't already an adept would be spared. I plumbed the mysteries of the parallel port so that others could use a printer with only mild mystical invocations. I immersed myself in SCSI termination so that my friends and family might partake of IDE (retroactively named PATA) in peace.
I came from an era of computing where these things mattered (at least to some degree) and they moulded me and shaped how I use a computer to this day. My brothers will always be dependent on myself and my ilk to act as guides and so much of what I know is functionally useless today so a neophyte could not follow the twisted path I did.
I was blessed as well to come of age in a time when a computer was a comprehensible assemblage of parts, when I could identify at an IC level the components of it. I feel like that is what is missing in the modern incarnation of technology. I also worry this is where we stagnate, the field is too large for anyone to compass it entirely and we splinter in to specialisations.
However this is also a sign that technology has come of age. I am certain, absolutely positive, that if I was to pick an arbitary topic, say music, I would seem as illiterate and helpless as the Zoomers we are bemoaning as mere consumers of Tech. I can enjoy a piece of music, I can even take a rough stab at the rusiments of how it is made. Ask me to explain the nomenclature of a time signature on sheet music and I will look the dunce before I finish the first sentence.
So maybe we should give them a break and realise that for a lot of them, It... Just... Isn't... Important...
They will learn this stuff if and when they need to. Otherwise "magic box does things when I perform this ritual" is enough for them to function in their world, the same as "Car starts when I turn this key" is enough for me to function in mine.
Holy crap, I wrote this on my phone, what is wrong with me?
Boomer don't know how to do shit 'cause computers were so rare.
Zoomers don't know how to do shit 'cause big companies profit from people who can't help themselves and have low standards.
There was only a small timeframe where computers were available, accessible yet not enshittificated for profit like today.
Expectation: these new generations are practically born with computers in their hands when they grow up they are going to create a new world so fast and develop new technologies
Reality: if tik tok doenst work they don’t know what else to do with their 1000+ euro smartphones
There are TWO generations between Boomers and Zoomers.
It's funny how Bs and Zs kind of horseshoe into being ignorant about how computers work. Boomers never had them growing up, while Zoomers were born with phones in their hands using corporate apps and never learned how computers actually work. Those of us in between had to learn how they worked to use them.
I mean, I know millennials who don't own a computer. Just phones. They got young kids. Not sure if those are alpha at this point or whatever, but how are they supposed to learn it if they got nowhere to practice?
Quite a few working class kids and teens grow up like this.
As a boomer, reading this thread/discussion has been so amusing in many ways while enjoying my cuppa tea this morning. A classic "the younger generations are stupid."
The older generations looking down the ones that follow. And the following generations looking down on those that precede them. And no one understanding ain't none of us are all that bright.
We grew up in an analog childhood, but digital adulthood.
We've been at the cusp of all the changes, we probably had to boot into Ms DOS and navigate to the A:// drive to play whatever was on the floppy disk with a whopping 1.44mb.
Now you download almost instantly to your phone/tablet. The internet as we knew it is mostly dead, everywhere is a walled garden of shit.
Would love some older internet gen input here: is this a "gen [whatever] is so [negative trait here] because they are [generation group]" or "younger ppl be stupid"?
Context: Am a millennial. At my first "real job" (as in, in the industry I got my degree in) I worked with ONE (1) other person, who was an early Gen-Xer. After developing a report with each other and becoming friendly, he lamented to me about how it seems like "millennials (not you, of course)" seem so helpless - like they can't figure things out on their own. Always asking "where is-" or "how do i-" before even examining the problem at hand and/or the resources available.
This dude was a self-proclaimed "blue fish in a red sea," and we worked with a wide age-range of sales ppl. I mention this, bc in the two years I worked with this nerd (and he was a fucking nerd, taking into account modern day and late 80s-early 90s standards of the term), his complaints about millennials never sounded like media parrot-speech. He was literally befuddled about the operational differences between generations.
It 100% seemed like an ageist thing. This was the late 2010's, pre-covid.
I'm in my 30s now and am equally baffled when my teenaged niece (weird familial age gap - not relevant here) doesn't know how to make the tap water hot when there's only one knob instead of two. She asked outloud but I refused to acknowledge or answer her. Niece figured it out shortly on her own, as expected.
So-... maybe younger people are just, yknow, dumb? Or recognize that, when surrounded by more experienced others, it takes less effort to ask for guidance than to waste energy through trial and error-?
Not trying to prove a point here. Just legit curious if anyone older has had similar experiences and can offer insight into whether this is a "zoomers are-" or "younger people are-" observation.
The number of people in this thread stumped by the “rotate a PDF” comment, even what it means at all, while a smartphone has been 95-100% of their “computer” usage in their lives.
I remember watching an interview with the CEO of SUN microsystems in the 90's argue that you didn't need to know how to run a nuclear power plant to use a light switch, and you shouldn't have to know how a computer works to use one.
I guess his vision came true, and we're mad about it?
All the tech executives from silicon valley that are our age all restrict cellphone use by their kids. If the people creating the tech that ruined a generation don't let them use their own devices that say a lot.
I am genuinely having a hard time with my Gen Z employee. I have to go through everything step by step each time and it just seems like nothing sticks. I even create documentation for him and he just can't follow it fully.
Me trying to show a zoomed where a file is on the network.
Me: "Open file explorer"
Zoomer: "What?"
Me: "Files..."
Zoomer: "Huh?"
Me: "Just click the folder."
Zoomer: "Ohhhhhh"
Almost as bad as watching my boomer coworker open notepad and drag a file into it. Just double click or right click open with. Ahhhhh.
During a zoom, I was presenting my full screen and was opening a new tab instantly with the scroll wheel click and the zoomers on the call was mind blown.
> be me
> zoomer
> use linux
> i use linux
> i don't know how to use windows, or macos
> i dont know how to use the most popular operating systems
> wait
> i am the joke now
I don't think that's necessarily the right way to look at it. We understand computers very well, but desktop computers are not the end-all be-all of technology. What is happening here happened in Japan before because they did the leap straight to smart devices well before the west with computers outside of offices being a very expensive and nerdy niche hobby. Their proficiencies lie in other technologies in which we fall behind as our parents typically do for technologies that we know.
In a broad sense yes, but in narrow ones, no. Japan leads in certain things like some robotics and elder support technology. Faxes are still required to do even get internet through NTT here. We're slowly being able to do more electronically, but definitely have a long way to go there. I had to go in to get help with my taxes and they had me do it all on my smartphone, which I think started in the last couple of years.
Mobile operating systems (Android, IOS) don't give the user enough freedom to understand how the system works, the best you can hope for is an understanding of how to use the technology. Knowing how technology works is very different from knowing how to use technology.
I mean, the OP mentions using a technology, not understanding everything that underlies it. I grew up entering programs on the C64 and such, but I certainly didn't understand exactly how everything worked under the hood then nor has knowledge of assembly or even circuits really done anything super helpful in my life that isn't hobby-related. At some point, it becomes less important for most people to know the level below and be able to use well the level they need (or to develop it).
When I posted, I was thinking more about things like using the technologies of social media and, probably not yet but eventually, things like AI assistants to their advantage regardless of any device or OS. It's too soon to say for sure, but I'm thinking beyond the chip-filled boxes themselves. This of course also ignores other technologies that are more mechanical, but I think that would be going too far into the weeds.
Listen if you can teach yourself to set up Linux and keep it updated then you can run any kind of computer out there. You can’t get that level of abstraction from an android.
I'm very early Gen X and take issue with being excluded from that - we were in our early 20s as computing really started to develop. Maybe I'm biased because I worked in IT.
Also IT here. I also lead teams of university students it really comes down to experience and training. My CS and INFO students know how this stuff works.
Let's be fair though. Adobe changes the Acrobat interface every two weeks for no reason. PDF has always been an absolute shitshow, super slow, walled garden format. After like 30 years it's still a 30 step process to add a note box with an arrow that looks half decent
I am what you would call a boomer. But I do not only know how to rotate a PDF, I also know how to generate one from a number of sources with software I have written...
Cobbling together four different online tutorials about a vague idea you think the damn program should do is the original "vibe programming". I am looking at you Power Automate.
No sir or madame, I actually verified by hand before posting that exact comment because while I did recently use it to edit the contents of a pdf (increase contrast on hiking map for BW print), I haven't that often and thus I wanted to find the rotate button myself to make sure I was giving legitimate advice :)
Yes, but not just that. Opening a document in Word is for the writer.
A pet peeve of mine is when I'm sent a user guide as a Word document complete with squiggly lines under the words it doesn't know.
Even worse is when a colleague sends a document like that to a customer.
PDF is a published file format, I find it hard to imagine a world where you could convince me downloading the user manual for my motherboard or downloading Lego assembly instructions should come as a word document.
I bet this person thinks all raster images should be bitmaps. Sorry maybe that was too harsh.
This. I care about graphic design and aesthetics. So when I send a document to a group for review, I’m not taking the risk of giving them something they could mess with.
Pointless?? Really? We should have just stuck with postscript? I’m pretty happy with pdf for almost anything as there’s a good chance it’ll render how whoever sent it to me was seeing it. What would you suggest/do different?
i disagree. Training boomers is easier because they know what computers are. Zoomers often see computers as "web browsing machines" or "gaming machines"
Is there some magic to rotating a PDF? I just opened one and there's a button in Firefox saying "Rotate clockwise" and "Rotate anticlockwise". Are we talking something rotating and then saving the PDF so it stays rotated or just rotating it after it's already loaded? Or is this about rotating the PDF so it can be printed out?
I would be happy to never see a PDF again, can we not have something better?
I always think it's like complaining that nobody under a certain age can use the card catalog, microfiche or whatever. Technology changes. I have so many leftover now useless skills; please God may the ones related to Adobe rot on that same pile soon.
Can't blame a generation that wasn't raised on computers as well as you can't blame a generation that was raised by algothrims. I'm a millennial too, one of the older ones, and I have felt my tech literacy decay over the past ten years as the cancer that is silicon valley has spread and dominated the internet. It is to the point that I feel so trapped when I try to do anything online that becoming passive feels like the only choice if you play their game.
I have the benefit of remembering what the internet used to be like and what it still has the potential to be in the future, but the youths of today never experienced that. To them the internet is a feeding machine that encourages nay grooms them into becoming passive consumers. I can't blame someone who literally never got the chance to learn because some tech bro scumbags in America decided that they should abuse their power to turn people into addicts.
So what this suggests to me is that zoomers are so up their own cell phones that they never bothered to learn how to use pepper computers. That almost funny. Mocking laughter is warring with weary head shaking in me.
Since Lemmy doesn't suck down data like corporate social media does simply lurking doesn't contribute to an instance's growth.
And when you crosspost that content elsewhere, with no comments or upvoting on the original, it diminishes that instance's power and influence just a bit and contributes to a more decentralized Lemmy-verse
We should be doing the same with .world, not because of toxic propaganda pushing admins, but just so that content is more decentralized in general. But I'm just 1 person who refuses to automate it, soo I can only do so much lmao
On Lemmy, big comms, user counts and content are an instances influence, the more you have the less others will be willing to defederate from you. Kinda why .ml can get away with so much crap
This is just following the capitalist model: steal stuff without any credit/payment to the originators, feel smug for "your innovative ideas."
Honesty is an option. Go in with good faith, not like you have the truth. For example, "this publication says....how can I believe the publication's refute? I don't know what to believe because propaganda everywhere. How can I know this isn't propaganda? Additional information please," or something. Then take the time you spend in self-congratulatory mockery to follow up. I mean I honestly dk, I've said some really uninformed stuff over there and am somehow not banned.
Sometimes we just can't always know what to believe and that's okay. I usually just wait for more information, and sometimes that takes a really long time, or never comes.
This is just following the capitalist model: steal stuff without any credit/payment to the originators, feel smug for "your innovative ideas."
All my cross-posts that have been identified as OC are credited back to the user in a way that does not link back to the .ml comm
Honesty is an option. Go in with good faith, not like you have the truth. For example, "this publication says....how can I believe the publication's refute? I don't know what to believe because propaganda everywhere. How can I know this isn't propaganda? Additional information please," or something. Then take the time you spend in self-congratulatory mockery to follow up. I mean I honestly dk, I've said some really uninformed stuff over there and am somehow not banned.
Sometimes we just can't always know what to believe and that's okay. I usually just wait for more information, and sometimes that takes a really long time, or never comes.
.ml does not return that good faith, I don't consider banning and censoring the opposing view to be welcoming good faith arguments:
I suspect that's social content fracture at work. If you have the right hobbies, access to the right tools, and move in the right circles, you pick up on this stuff. If you don't, well... 🤷♀️
As a 2007 kid I don't many of my peers actually are but we are pretty different than post 2007 kids. I still grew up with satellite tv for the most part.
Yea surprise some people are good at using computers some are bad, has nothing to do with whatever generation someone is apart of, generation labels are so dumb. Literally every "milleinal" I've known comes to me for their computer problems.
There should be a class where they force you to install arch Linux without the automated install script and force people to learn how an OS works, or even make them do a Gentoo installation. You only pass it if you get to a fully functioning PC with a web browser and desktop environment
Computers have been dumbed down and simplified for the masses. When I was a kid a computer did not cooperate until you raised your voice.
I do industrial programming. Everything is so far behind that yelling at the "computers" does nothing. Physical violence is just about the only thing they respect.
Percussive maintenance is surprisingly helpful a lot of the time.
Me, when the family asks me, "the IT guy", for help.
Until your trackpad is acting up a bit and you become so frustrated you smack it and now it hardly ever works.
Same with flinging a laptop across the room, which ultimately became my excuse to replace a 12yo Sony laptop.
If the magic smoke comes out, that's entirely the electrician/electrical designer's fault. Their circuits shouldn't have let me do that.
Hey now, the NEC provides ample protection against user stupidity, and I do my damndest to take it a step further. If a user is able to do something so catastrophically stupid despite me better engineering efforts, perhaps they should read up on darwinism.
Signed, an electrician.
This often devolves into Rapid Unscheduled Disassembly.
A blowie works a lot more often.
More flies with honey they say... but i still cant get this usb right the first try.
It broke my previous laptop’s hard drive because it wasn’t an ssd.
therapeutic at least
That's where the term punch card comes from
FORTRAN? More like, these hands. Put 'em up, numb nuts.
I would love to have more effective means to threaten inanimate objects.
Tbh, that sounds super interesting.
SLAMS DESK HELLO!
FathER!
FaaaThERR!
Use the mouse, duh.
Yeah, newer generations have been raised on tech that “just worked” consistently. They never had to do any deep troubleshooting, because they never encountered any major issues. They grew up in a world where the hard problems were already figured out, so they were insulated from a lot of the issues that allowed millennials to learn.
They never got a BSOD from a faulty USB driver. They never had to reinstall an OS after using Limewire to download “Linkin_Park-Numb.mp3.exe” on the family computer. Or hell, even if they did get tricked by a malicious download, the computer’s anti-virus automatically killed it before they were even able to open it. They never had to manually install OS updates. They never had to figure out how to get their sound card working with a new game. They never had to manually configure their network settings.
All of these things were chances for millennials to learn. But since the younger generations never encountered any issues, they never had to figure their own shit out.
Or reinstall the OS on the family computer because one of your dumbass siblings downloaded a sUpeR cOoL song from one of their friends on MSN Messenger.
It's not so much that the tech just worked. Often it doesn't work. The difference is that when it doesn't work it's not user-serviceable. Up until maybe 2010 or so, when things broke there was often something a user could do to fix them. But, especially with the introduction of locked-down mobile phone OSes, that's not true anymore. Now it's just "wait for an update".
And that is why I'll only allow my kids to use Linux!
It was always a struggle to get the damn thing to do what you wanted it to. It turned out to be a good thing long term.
Even as a teenager (didn't have a computer before that) I had infinite patience with computers, you can fix/change/make anything with enough time, nothing will be better if you get mad and ignore reading and making sure you understand what's happening. Seeing how young people handle tech now is fucking depressing, they just click past everything without reading, get mad and rage quit after 30 seconds of something not working and think anything that's more than two clicks/taps is too complicated.
You talking about young people or old people?
Young, most old people I know either don't know anything and are fine with that, they get help for even the simplest things, or they can handle it themselves without problems.
we really need frutiger aero back man
And when that wasn't enough, the fists came out.
I'm sure you meant "beat it into submission".
I can:
But also:
Behold my mixture of skills, and tremble.
Can you summarize this in a vertical video? I stopped reading after the third word, I'm here for memes, not to read a damned book!
This is spot on!
EDIT: This was spot on. TL;DR below.
TL;DR?
frfr no cap
On god
this. 👆👆
Sorry, I should have been clearer. I found the second part of the comment super funny.
TL;DR: User has programming and sysadmin skils.
I feel like if someone doesn't do a TikTok remix of this... did it even happen?
... and have a dance video playing with music and flashing lights with the text over it ... but not too much text because I can't read that well
I find family guy clips with a slime squishing video underneath to be better for readability
Are you a three eyed chameleon?
"I can: Accomplish" kind of sums it up though
They're a witch speaking in tongues! Burn them!
You just made me realize the Zoomers are actually much closer to making Warhammer 40k a reality. IT engineers are like Tech Priests to these Zoomers.
I’ve been called a wizard a lot in my career because I can google an error message.
I don't know much of Warhammer lore, so I had to look up tech priests:
"No longer the master of its creations, the Cult Mechanicus is enslaved to the past. It maintains the glories of yesteryear with rite, dogma and edict instead of true discernment and comprehension. For instance, even the theoretically simple process of activating a vehicle's engine is preceded by the application of ritual oils, the burning of sacred resins and the chanting of long and complex hymns. "
Its clear to me the author of this block of text was having trouble starting his vehicle's engine, and was pissed off when he/she was asked to put in a ticket before help would be rendered to the him/her.
What's this nonsense? Why don't you just say "they" like a normal person?
If you’ve never read it Vernon Vinge a fire upon the deep had a type of programmers in the future known as programmer archaeologists. The tldr is nobody wrote new code just dug up old code and bolted it together. I used to think that was silly, after llms lately and dealing with interns I no longer think of it as fiction.
I've always viewed programmer archaeology is just trying to understand your old code or the team you are working withs old code and also trying to understand the why it was done this way.
I think AI coding is a programmer archeologist based on your definition, and I think I may start using that now.
I mean it’s kinda both, I just thought the idea a bit preposterous but as time goes on that book gets closer to reality.
01010100 01101000 01100101 00100000 01001111 01101101 01101110 01101001 01110011 01101001 01100001 01101000 00100000 01100100 01100101 01110011 01101001 01110010 01100101 01110011 00100000 01101101 01101111 01110010 01100101 00100000 01110100 01101111 01100001 01110011 01110100 01100101 01110010 01110011 00100001
1001001…SOS…1001001…In distress
"Do not cite the Deep Magic to me, Witch! I was there when it was written"
Okay but can you rotate a pdf?
Depends, my browser has mostly taken over as my pdf viewer and I think it lacks the functionality but if I were to install a cracked copy of Acrobat Pro or PhantomPDF then that's like a 2 click operation.
proceeds to get infected with an unknown ransomware variant
I can
oh wait that was all the dependencies VLC needed, I deleted them??, oh no, oh crap. Why isn't my password working, help???
(real reason why my first Ubuntu distro got nuked)
I once wanted to move all the files in the folder was I in to another folder and I did something like
mv /* ../. What is important here is that I did/*and not./*. Fortunately it was only a raspberry pi so it went fast to flash the SD card.Also, how did you go about reinstalling VLC if you deleted all dependencies?
that's so funny but so sad 😭😭
I just distrohopped to kubuntu instead lol
I meant, how did you delete all files??
I'd argue at a certain depth in an OS its actually harder to do things with a GUI than a command line
The day I started learning Regex was the day I felt like I was really learning computers. I went from 2 hour tasks to 15 minutes.
I doubt you’d even be able to reasonably explain what they are let alone how they work to the average person outside the Millennial generation.
I fear AI data processing will replace much of the Regex skill set. Why learn Regex when the computer just does it for you… 🙄
I agree that regex is an important thing to learn. Not sure any old LLM would do a very good job, and I hope that no tool replaces people actually learning how to write regex.
I'm not sure what you mean about the average person outside the millennial generation not understanding them, though. Maybe I'm mistaken, but I don't think the 'average' person in any generation knows what regex is. Unless there is some reason the average millennial was actually exposed to them and forced to understand them?
As for being doubtful that anyone could understand them aside from a millennial, I assume you're being hyperbolic? Sort of sounds like "Kids these days can never learn what I learned!" (I'm teasing).
Anyway I'm in agreement with you. This thread did remind me of a pretty neat project that, while still requiring domain knowledge, could save some time and be a good learning tool without being as fallible of a crutch as an LLM.
Have not tried it, and am not an experienced developer, so I am curious to your thoughts/criticisms: https://github.com/pemistahl/grex
That's a good idea actually. I hate writing regex, so I asked Gemini to do it just now. Once I explained it in the format it wanted: what the source would be, what I wanted filtered and the language I planned to use it with it spat out a perfect expression without me needing to even use my brain. Technology is wonderful.
I'm sure LLMs can get it right, but if I was going to use a tool for something like that, I'd want one that was more deterministic like the linked tool claims to be.
Yeah, I am exaggerating a bit, but I’ve not met anyone under the age of 25 that’s even remotely interested in putting in the effort to learn (anecdotal, I’m aware). Many have expressed wanting to learn, but then they never follow up when I try and pursue teaching anything.
And I’m not necessarily saying that the average person already understands them, but someone from our generation will probably pick them up far more quickly then your average Gen Z/Gen A.
Maybe what you're claiming is true, I don't know whether is 'probable'.
I poked fun at this before, but I don't think it came across. If I'm not mistaken, millennials were the subject of a lot of boomer complaints about "kids these days", being called lazy or entitled etc..
Maybe zoomers are dumber, maybe they're full of microplastics and entitlement. Or maybe this thread is an example of the "chastise the next generation" history repeating. One generation is lumped together and shat on by older generations, some of which then make similar claims about the next generation(s) all backed up with nothing but anecdotes and confirmation bias.
I'm not trying to take dig at you, but I do want to highlight the similarities between claims like these and when a boomer might've said "I know a millennial who spends more on coffee than I would, so millennials are bad with their money. Millennials, who are bad with their money, cant afford houses. Yet they act entitled to homeownership, and so, they are lazy." It's a claim that assumes something about the integrity and intelligence of a swath of people and ignores the systemic issues that made homeownership hard for many millennials compared to past generations.
Again, maybe you are right, I do not know. I don't think, though, that boomer rhetoric that shat on millennials as a whole was particularly accurate or productive.
I certainly don’t blame them for these pitfalls I don’t think it’s laziness. It’s 100% a lack of education. Teachers have all but given up trying to get kids to pay attention in class. It’s become a snowball effect.
When I was in school, most of my classmates took it seriously and took much of the education at face value. And almost all of my classmates are people that could handle the full Office suite.
Now it seems every kid thinks they already know computers because they started with an iPad at the age of 4, but what they don’t realize is phones and tablets are the equivalent to toys.
You don’t ever actually learn how to use a phone. Just individual apps. People don’t even really browse the internet blindly anymore.
I think it’s probably the difference that a lot of boomers probably saw with cars in the 2000s-2010s. It used to be everyone had a rough idea of how a car worked and most people could learn in a year or two how to do basic stuff.
Now it’s all a closed magic box requiring a full technical degree. Phones fell the same. Its a magic box that they never had the opportunity to wonder how it worked.
Silly millennial, even Boomers were using regexen in the 70s, and they were commonplace by the time GenX nerds started playing with them in the 80s and 90s. Your elders also know that regexen are fun but extremely dangerous, and should only be used in cases where they won't make things much worse.
Why would you write machine code outside of uni! Assembly exists for a reason?
Assembly is just machine code in a dress.
I'd argue that it's not as useful to write machine code as it is to read it.
Omg, this all the way. I'm in a class for learning AWS stuff and its crazy the amount of people who suddenly can't do anything when one button is on a different screen than the instructions told them it was. Like come on, use some basic thinking skills.
Another infuriating situation was having to do a class on Microsoft Office. It was infuriating because it was incredibly basic stuff. I've never used Outlook before, but I completed each task they asked of me in like 5 seconds because I have a basic understanding of how software works.
I bow down to thee. Please don't smite me o' holy one.
wat?
Bro that shits like 30 years old and most langs released after lets say 2010 have put that stuff in the backseat for backwards compatibility. Anyway I get your point
Dont believe it. Behold the shittyness of modern UI
Bobby no one’s paying you for this shit, go show Billy how to sum numbers in Excel.
I use the compose key. When you message with me, you are sure to receive proper dashes and real ellipsis.
Well, unless I happen to be using my phone or another computer at the time.
Hold on — why can't you do proper ellipses and dashes on your phone? I don't understand…
This message brought to you by Android.
Well there is no em dash or en dash key on the mobile keyboard. And there isn't a ... key either.
I typed my comment above on my mobile keyboard. I'm just using the standard Google keyboard on my Pixel, nothing fancy. Em and en dash are available by holding on the hyphen, and the ellipsis is available by holding on the period (annoyingly, only when on the numbers/symbols page).
The issue is that I am using something fancy.
Write machine code? For what kind of processor?
That is one ability that doesn't really belong. That's much more of a Boomer thing. Not all boomers, obviously, but the ones who were computer experts were the ones who had to learn machine code. By the time even Gen X came along, assembler and C were already much more common.
Yeah but can you rotate a pdf?
To any angle you want.
Let me guess: they're talking about Millennials, and are entirely forgetting about Gen X once again.
Hahaha its funny each time that happens.
My uncle is GenX and way smarter than my millennial ass. They paved the way for child free poppin off and being tech savvy with a normal tech free upbringing.
Anecdotal I know. But always funny how self centered us millenials can be thinking were the last normal generation.
I figured they were talking about the Oregon Trail generation. It's made up of the folks who were old enough and young enough to play the game in schools and spans across parts of X and millennials.
Commodore? I know they had a tape drive and the game. I had an old TI 99/4A with a tape drive and we had Chisholm Trail but it was different.
That's a great way to describe our larger cohort! I'm going to use that. I've got so many friends across the Gen-X to Millenial range that all feel like members of the same generation.
Not my term, I just happily co-opted it.
For once they didn't forget gen X-- I think OP is about xennials
https://web.archive.org/web/20150423212047/http://socialmediaweek.org/blog/2015/04/oregon-trail-generation/
I heard millennials can't even grow a proper long beard
Yea but our mustache game is unmatched by anyone pre-1920's.
Punk kids can't even manage enough of an attention span to grow a Gentoo long beard!
Please don't attack like this... Ma kokoro, ma sole.
Probably. But if I’m being generous, we’re really only talking about younger X and older millennials.
This always surprises me as I'm younger millennial and my Gen X dad always feels more technologically behind than me.
But it's funny because I'm only so into computers because of him as he had things like Windows 3.1 and 95 and 98 in our home from a young age and he even went to school for C++ but he doesn't really remember it (it got him an accounting gig) and his pursual of technology these days is pretty limited to pre-built stuff from Samsung and Sony than any real grasp of how it works. I struggle to get him to show even passing interest in something like Linux (like, I get liking Windows; you grew up with it: you're more comfortable with it. But not even curiosity, even if you'll never use it?).
Expert on Excel and OneNote (because it's his daily bread-and-butter) but probably would ask for my help on rotating a PDF.
What OP describes sounds much more aligned to my millennial peers than the bulk of Gen. X I know.
Honestly? Why do we let people who have no clue what's actually going on decide the generations?
Oregon Trail generation sounds great.
I'm in the Minecraft generation.
Don't know what the next generation would want to be called, but they're the iPad kids for sure.
Yup!
Gen X could write a program that'll make a floppy drive's loading noises play the Imperial March.
https://youtu.be/yHJOz_y9rZE
Or those of us from Gen Z that where born just at the cutoff and got tech acces at a way to young age.
*were *access *too
Yup, you're a Zoomer alright.
The generation that used them to create the new generation of smart devices? Sure.
The generation that grew up with ZX Spectrum, C64, Amiga etc knows how to use computers.
Some can't. Computers weren't commonplace until many GenXers were in their 20s, so some never learned. Those that did learn often learned the deep magic.
in today’s edition of "why are the kids I raised so damn incompetent?"
i long for a day where people understand that it’s not the ipad kid’s fault they were given a tablet at age 2
It isn't their fault, but it did happen.
So many Boomers I know do the subject line thing, I had no idea it was a Zoomer thing too. Oh no…
I often leave the subject line blank, is that better or worse?
About the same level... Put a subject people can search for.
Do E-mail providers no longer let you search the E-mail body?
Yes, officer, this one right here
IMO, that's absolutely not as bad.
Worse imo, you won't even be able to tell what the email is about at a glance
I'm pretty computer literate (I'm using Fedora silver blue now and I'm a cyber college student), and I'm gen z.
I hated our digital literacy units in school, because it was always the most braindead shit every year. Stuff that you shouldn't have to explain to a person every year, like digital footprint (think before you post), make sure it's a https website, and misinformation vs disinformation. I wanna cry because my tech and society class I'm taking right now feels like the same shit, but I'm paying now.
I'm not sure how they should revamp, but maybe they need to show modern examples like the honey scam, the thousands of Tiktok influencers who admitted they lied about the stuff they sold when they thought the service was shutting down, and how Google search is forcing shitty AI results. But we do have the unit, it just feels braindead to anyone like me who gives a damn about the services they use online. But I'm a nerd who looks at privacy/cyber shit for fun for hours, not TikTok dual screen braindead...
I mean, people always think teaching not to bully people is boringly obvious and it is, if you stop to think about the concept in theory, but it can be different, when you're in the heat of the moment; teaching the fundamentals do help people, even if painfully clear to those at a higher level. I think those're actually pretty good.
The issue (as you've kinda noted) is they never go beyond that. The Honey scan might be hard to impart as, if I didn't know some of how the system worked because I program for a living, it would've seemed like magic gibberish. The other two are good ones, though.
Honestly, teaching the fundamentals of how the intervals work in some way I think would go far. The number of people who don't know what file extensions are always worry me.
What kinda monster manages to live like this??? I say hushedly deleting flsjfjsjfksj.pdf
Asdf.txt, asdf2.txt, asdf.m3u, asdf.odf...
I have a coworker who named a file template after the person they were sending the file to. I cannot follow the logic.
That seems to be how Android literally works though.
Yeah; I hate Android's file navigation capabilities…
If you get an actual file explorer it's fine. I'm using a fossilized asus one because I got used to it years ago.
I think Zoomers need a generational divide in their generation, tbh. In my experience, older Zoomers are intelligent, capable, motivated, and largely leftist. For some unknown reason though, younger Zoomers are ignorant, prudish, too easily contented, and weirdly conservative. I have yet to understand what happened to cause the divide, and I can't point to any stats or evidence to support this belief, but anecdotally I have noticed this trend within my own life and spheres of influence.
Forgot the forgotten again
Are they the same generation whose parents said “they’re really good with computers …they go on the iPad all the time”?
WhAt'S a CoMpUtEr?
Thanks for reminding me, now I'm angry.
Glad I could brighten up your day!
An IPad is a computer with a touchscreen interface instead of mouse and keyboard
We got a new kid around 19 working at our office for processing data and I hate how true this is. The amount of times I've had to say "No, you have to double click to open folders" is entirely too many. Either that or "You have to actually right click on the icon you want to copy you can't just click anywhere on the screen."
Fuck me I'm not ready for that. You expect it from the old people but I might have to leave the room if a young person asked me something like that.
I teach undergrads, and every year basic computer skills get worse and worse. I guess it’s not entirely their fault, but things like just asking them to save a file to their computer is insanely difficult. Lots of universities are starting to get task forces to figure out how to teach (or where to teach rather) basic digital skills, it it’s all going to hit the workforce really soon en masse.
Let it all implode. I'm sure the companies will thrive with this reality with the bonus of AI slop on top that all these people will be using and putting in all system across our society.
In high school I had to teach a kid how a mouse worked.
I mean, I know millennials who don't own a computer. Just phones. They got young kids. Not sure if those are alpha at this point or whatever, but how are they supposed to learn it if they got nowhere to practice?
Quite a few working class kids and teens grow up like this.
You know, I can forgive tech illiteracy. I don't like it, but I can forgive it. What I can't forgive is a basic inability to retain new information.
You gotta teach someone to double click on something to open it? Fine. But you should only have to do that once.
That's a real problem when you're used to Kde and have to use a windows machine.
(Why is this damn thing so slow ? Oooh, right, double click)
You can absolutely configure Windows to open folders -- and all other shortcuts -- with a single click, and IIRC one of the knocks against Windows ME was that this was the default option. And it was godawful, along with the "click" noise it made on navigation. (I think it was WinME. I've probably suppressed the memory, and rightly so.)
But the long and short of it is if you want consistency between your UI's in that regard you can indeed have it.
I think I tried it years ago. But it didn't really work with the windows ui for some reason. Nowadays I don't use it often enough to bother personalising it.
I use KDE Neon and have used Kubuntu before. Double click to open a folder is the default, same as Windows.
It is in the latest versions but it's very recent. The default has always been single click. They changed it because of windows users.
We are getting this teached in 6th grade what country is this from? Edit: Įn 8th rudementary python.
You get one guess.
US?
That's a BINGO!
(I'm old enough to have received a decent education here and capable of observing the noticeable decline over the past ~30 years)
It only relatively recently occurred to me that the vast majority of people use the Internet either solely or mostly with a mobile phone. It blew my mind since I grew up with PCs and modems and the Internet is so much better on a large screen that's not half full of ads.
Me: Behold!
*quickly presses Control+V
Classmate: Woah! How did you do that??!!!
True story but as a millennial teaching another millennial in college.
You can rotate a PDF in your mind. It's free entertainment and nobody can stop you
My daughter (5) uses WASD proficiently, so I have hope.
Absolutely. At 10yo I've tried my best to teach my kid video editing and basic computer use. A bit ago I made her network two computers using chatGPT as a guide. So freaking proud of her.
Thinking of forcing her to do something new. Does Roblox run on Linux?
Can I recommend Minecraft over Roblox?
Minecraft isn't as popular, but I was able to get my 8 year old to make TNT arrows and he thought it was a blast. (Hehehehe)
And Minecraft Java definitely works on Linux
Edit: My son claims Roblox is more popular. But that could be because I banned it at home.
Minecraft is a blast! You can buy it and then throw the awful Microsoft launcher in the trash. There areuch better bootleg launchers (i.e. don't force login). Or just get the bootleg launcher without buying the game.
I have bought the game five times on different platforms by now. I'm not buying it anymore.
My kids also had a lot of fun choosing and figuring out the plethora of mods available.
I literally paid 20€ for 2000h of fun (1c per hour), I'd say that's warranted
Hearing the best selling video game ever isnt as popular as roblox is weird
Yeah, honestly, I don't know if it is, or he just talks about it like it is because I won't let him play it.
Minecraft is way more fun IMO anyway
Minecraft is less popular than Roblox nowadays???
I'm not that old and when I was in school everyone was playing Minecraft (+ later when it released many played Fortnite) and noone Roblox.
He's in elementary school so it's impossible to actually know.
Definitely, and modded Minecraft has taken a great game and made it so much better. The "Create" mod alone has made MC so much more than what Mojang intended.
And the launchers available for Linux let you use modpacks from every source including FTB, letting you forgo a launcher full of ads.
with some hassle bedrock can also work iirc. might be the android version though.
That said, I forget which one is which and which was the renaming, but luanti/minetest/minecraftia/mineclone. One is a free open source engine, two are different takes on minecraft clones that are mods for the base engine. Missing features can be covered via addititonal more specific mods.
The main benefit is that its actually free with no microtransactions that can make you broke if your kids figure out how to use your credit card. It also performs way better than both minecraft versions on even older hardware. If the kids can learn free art software like krita or gimp among others, they can make their own skins instead of buying them for minecraft. Pixel art is pretty easy to copy too.
roblax is extremely absolutely vile, manipulative, and not a safe place for anyone let alone children. it's genuinely worse than 4chan for some time now.
tell me how is brickhill supposed to compete when roblox isn't down?
What makes you say this? The parental controls are pretty good. Just don't give access to age range stuff that you feel the kid isn't ready for. And turn off the chat. The only thing that bothers me is some of the annoying sounds some of the experiences use.
I've been told some pretty fucked up shit slips through the cracks like 'holocaust simulator' or 'beating pregnant women' or assorted bizarre block people sex dungeon stuff, then the literal real money gambling paired with fomo, child labour exploitation through game development hopes and dreams combined with extremely exploitative advertisement options.
Maybe parents from exactly the correct generation can handle the parental controls but the parents I know IRL gave their kids free reign and the ones that cut it off after seeing soulless violent content had a hard time with the kids being straight up addicted. Kid's shouldn't even be on online stuff since the average parent has no idea how to use anything other than an iphone and even that they barely know shit.
Back in my day we played reader rabbit and math blaster off of five and a quarter floppies
Child labour.
These days roblox barely runs on windows. Now in order for it to update it needs local admin privileges. So no more roblox.
Roblox? sober just began working again.
How did she do it? Just plug a crossover cable into both of them?
OK so I have a pet theory about this. I grew up in a period when computing involved friction and lack of ready resources to ease that friction. Solving problems involved actual research, in the research process more and more details of how computers operate were exposed to me. I had the time and focus to learn and the motivation to stick at it when it was difficult. I then did something horrible to almost everyone who asked me for help, I removed that friction.
With the noblest of intentions I prevented everyone around me from experiencing that friction, I made it easy. Consequently I caused those people around me to miss out on those basics I struggled with. I uncovered the arcane lore of endianess so everyone around me who wasn't already an adept would be spared. I plumbed the mysteries of the parallel port so that others could use a printer with only mild mystical invocations. I immersed myself in SCSI termination so that my friends and family might partake of IDE (retroactively named PATA) in peace.
I came from an era of computing where these things mattered (at least to some degree) and they moulded me and shaped how I use a computer to this day. My brothers will always be dependent on myself and my ilk to act as guides and so much of what I know is functionally useless today so a neophyte could not follow the twisted path I did.
I was blessed as well to come of age in a time when a computer was a comprehensible assemblage of parts, when I could identify at an IC level the components of it. I feel like that is what is missing in the modern incarnation of technology. I also worry this is where we stagnate, the field is too large for anyone to compass it entirely and we splinter in to specialisations.
However this is also a sign that technology has come of age. I am certain, absolutely positive, that if I was to pick an arbitary topic, say music, I would seem as illiterate and helpless as the Zoomers we are bemoaning as mere consumers of Tech. I can enjoy a piece of music, I can even take a rough stab at the rusiments of how it is made. Ask me to explain the nomenclature of a time signature on sheet music and I will look the dunce before I finish the first sentence.
So maybe we should give them a break and realise that for a lot of them, It... Just... Isn't... Important...
They will learn this stuff if and when they need to. Otherwise "magic box does things when I perform this ritual" is enough for them to function in their world, the same as "Car starts when I turn this key" is enough for me to function in mine.
Holy crap, I wrote this on my phone, what is wrong with me?
Boomer don't know how to do shit 'cause computers were so rare. Zoomers don't know how to do shit 'cause big companies profit from people who can't help themselves and have low standards.
There was only a small timeframe where computers were available, accessible yet not enshittificated for profit like today.
Expectation: these new generations are practically born with computers in their hands when they grow up they are going to create a new world so fast and develop new technologies
Reality: if tik tok doenst work they don’t know what else to do with their 1000+ euro smartphones
There are TWO generations between Boomers and Zoomers.
It's funny how Bs and Zs kind of horseshoe into being ignorant about how computers work. Boomers never had them growing up, while Zoomers were born with phones in their hands using corporate apps and never learned how computers actually work. Those of us in between had to learn how they worked to use them.
Like birds and New Zealand, gen x doesn’t exist online.
It's easy to forget us because we'll just say "whatever" when you do.
I'm partial to "meh."
I mean, I know millennials who don't own a computer. Just phones. They got young kids. Not sure if those are alpha at this point or whatever, but how are they supposed to learn it if they got nowhere to practice?
Quite a few working class kids and teens grow up like this.
It'll depend on their hobbies. PC gamers will know this stuff, or at least how to figure it out.
As a boomer, reading this thread/discussion has been so amusing in many ways while enjoying my cuppa tea this morning. A classic "the younger generations are stupid."
The older generations looking down the ones that follow. And the following generations looking down on those that precede them. And no one understanding ain't none of us are all that bright.
Ever has it been, and so ever shall it be.
We grew up in an analog childhood, but digital adulthood.
We've been at the cusp of all the changes, we probably had to boot into Ms DOS and navigate to the A:// drive to play whatever was on the floppy disk with a whopping 1.44mb.
Now you download almost instantly to your phone/tablet. The internet as we knew it is mostly dead, everywhere is a walled garden of shit.
Would love some older internet gen input here: is this a "gen [whatever] is so [negative trait here] because they are [generation group]" or "younger ppl be stupid"?
Context: Am a millennial. At my first "real job" (as in, in the industry I got my degree in) I worked with ONE (1) other person, who was an early Gen-Xer. After developing a report with each other and becoming friendly, he lamented to me about how it seems like "millennials (not you, of course)" seem so helpless - like they can't figure things out on their own. Always asking "where is-" or "how do i-" before even examining the problem at hand and/or the resources available.
This dude was a self-proclaimed "blue fish in a red sea," and we worked with a wide age-range of sales ppl. I mention this, bc in the two years I worked with this nerd (and he was a fucking nerd, taking into account modern day and late 80s-early 90s standards of the term), his complaints about millennials never sounded like media parrot-speech. He was literally befuddled about the operational differences between generations.
It 100% seemed like an ageist thing. This was the late 2010's, pre-covid.
I'm in my 30s now and am equally baffled when my teenaged niece (weird familial age gap - not relevant here) doesn't know how to make the tap water hot when there's only one knob instead of two. She asked outloud but I refused to acknowledge or answer her. Niece figured it out shortly on her own, as expected.
So-... maybe younger people are just, yknow, dumb? Or recognize that, when surrounded by more experienced others, it takes less effort to ask for guidance than to waste energy through trial and error-?
Not trying to prove a point here. Just legit curious if anyone older has had similar experiences and can offer insight into whether this is a "zoomers are-" or "younger people are-" observation.
The number of people in this thread stumped by the “rotate a PDF” comment, even what it means at all, while a smartphone has been 95-100% of their “computer” usage in their lives.
My gen z son is like a computer wizard to me a fairly proficient millennial so I don’t think it’s a generational thing
I used to know everything there was on 95 to windows 7 but things keep changing so I just stopped caring.
I remember watching an interview with the CEO of SUN microsystems in the 90's argue that you didn't need to know how to run a nuclear power plant to use a light switch, and you shouldn't have to know how a computer works to use one.
I guess his vision came true, and we're mad about it?
I was born in 83, and grew up in the time where being a computer need required real work and knowledge of computers.
The things got easier and easier, and then the smartphones came.
These new kids literally don't know how to search a file directory because they are used to the apps magicing stuff where it needs to be.
All the tech executives from silicon valley that are our age all restrict cellphone use by their kids. If the people creating the tech that ruined a generation don't let them use their own devices that say a lot.
I am genuinely having a hard time with my Gen Z employee. I have to go through everything step by step each time and it just seems like nothing sticks. I even create documentation for him and he just can't follow it fully.
I'm truly baffled and any advice is welcome.
Me trying to show a zoomed where a file is on the network. Me: "Open file explorer" Zoomer: "What?" Me: "Files..." Zoomer: "Huh?" Me: "Just click the folder." Zoomer: "Ohhhhhh"
Almost as bad as watching my boomer coworker open notepad and drag a file into it. Just double click or right click open with. Ahhhhh.
During a zoom, I was presenting my full screen and was opening a new tab instantly with the scroll wheel click and the zoomers on the call was mind blown.
IM TRYING MAN
My 8 year old knows how to keyboard a little. I haven't figured out if they're gonna teach him in school or not, so I'm erring on the side of caution
I'm old, Gandalf. I may not look it, but I feel this meme in my bones.
I'm sure I had a conversation like this with one of the acquaintances of my dad
> be me
> zoomer
> use linux
> i use linux
> i don't know how to use windows, or macos
> i dont know how to use the most popular operating systems
> wait
> i am the joke now
...And yet again, Gen X has been forgotten.
Cool cool.
As a developer and avid Linux enjoyer, I myself don't know why the printer won't connect.
They are really more alike than any other two generations.
I would postulate that in past centuries when life didn't change a lot, many many generations were much more alike.
Yeah. Late gen x to late millennial seems to be the sweet spot for understanding how technology works.
I don't think that's necessarily the right way to look at it. We understand computers very well, but desktop computers are not the end-all be-all of technology. What is happening here happened in Japan before because they did the leap straight to smart devices well before the west with computers outside of offices being a very expensive and nerdy niche hobby. Their proficiencies lie in other technologies in which we fall behind as our parents typically do for technologies that we know.
There is the old saying that in the 80s Japan was in the 2000s but they are still stuck in the 2000s today.
In a broad sense yes, but in narrow ones, no. Japan leads in certain things like some robotics and elder support technology. Faxes are still required to do even get internet through NTT here. We're slowly being able to do more electronically, but definitely have a long way to go there. I had to go in to get help with my taxes and they had me do it all on my smartphone, which I think started in the last couple of years.
Mobile operating systems (Android, IOS) don't give the user enough freedom to understand how the system works, the best you can hope for is an understanding of how to use the technology. Knowing how technology works is very different from knowing how to use technology.
I mean, the OP mentions using a technology, not understanding everything that underlies it. I grew up entering programs on the C64 and such, but I certainly didn't understand exactly how everything worked under the hood then nor has knowledge of assembly or even circuits really done anything super helpful in my life that isn't hobby-related. At some point, it becomes less important for most people to know the level below and be able to use well the level they need (or to develop it).
When I posted, I was thinking more about things like using the technologies of social media and, probably not yet but eventually, things like AI assistants to their advantage regardless of any device or OS. It's too soon to say for sure, but I'm thinking beyond the chip-filled boxes themselves. This of course also ignores other technologies that are more mechanical, but I think that would be going too far into the weeds.
Listen if you can teach yourself to set up Linux and keep it updated then you can run any kind of computer out there. You can’t get that level of abstraction from an android.
I'm very early Gen X and take issue with being excluded from that - we were in our early 20s as computing really started to develop. Maybe I'm biased because I worked in IT.
Also IT here. I also lead teams of university students it really comes down to experience and training. My CS and INFO students know how this stuff works.
Let's be fair though. Adobe changes the Acrobat interface every two weeks for no reason. PDF has always been an absolute shitshow, super slow, walled garden format. After like 30 years it's still a 30 step process to add a note box with an arrow that looks half decent
I am what you would call a boomer. But I do not only know how to rotate a PDF, I also know how to generate one from a number of sources with software I have written...
The smartphone and it's consequences to the human society...
I actually thought I am part of this blessed generation that can use a computer. But rotating a PDF? That beats me.
Edit: In Okular it's actually easy to find this function. I was never looking for this for my whole life.
The real skillset isn't necessarily knowing how to do these things off tbe top of your head, but knowing how to look them up.
Perhaps the biggest obstacle for the next generation is how thoroughly Google has enshittified.
Cobbling together four different online tutorials about a vague idea you think the damn program should do is the original "vibe programming". I am looking at you Power Automate.
Vibe programming is the new copying random shit from stackoverflow and hoping it works.
I'm still so mad that power automate requires an online connection to start up and a Microsoft account.
Just pick up your laptop and rotate it to whatever angle you want.
Instructions unclear. I have a desktop PC and now my monitor arm is broken. My 38 inch screen fell on the floor. You'll hear from my lawyers.
Ctrl+shift+plus sign
Or ctrl + alt + down arrow also work
LibreOffice Draw should work just fine for that :)
Are you joking right now? I tried opening a pdf with Libre Draw recently but it didn’t work.
No sir or madame, I actually verified by hand before posting that exact comment because while I did recently use it to edit the contents of a pdf (increase contrast on hiking map for BW print), I haven't that often and thus I wanted to find the rotate button myself to make sure I was giving legitimate advice :)
I like the cut of your jib!
KDE Okular to your rescue!
Kay
Try OnlyOffice.
Or just open it with Firefox like a normal person.
I’m not a normal person.
Sounds like something imagemagick could do so that would be my first strategy to try
PDF is a pointless file format that should not exist. Come at me.
10000 times better than the previously mainstream way which was people sending you office docs expecting you could open that shit.
Yes, but not just that. Opening a document in Word is for the writer.
A pet peeve of mine is when I'm sent a user guide as a Word document complete with squiggly lines under the words it doesn't know.
Even worse is when a colleague sends a document like that to a customer.
PDF is a published file format, I find it hard to imagine a world where you could convince me downloading the user manual for my motherboard or downloading Lego assembly instructions should come as a word document.
I bet this person thinks all raster images should be bitmaps. Sorry maybe that was too harsh.
It's good for sending documents you don't want to be tampered with because most people don't know how to edit a PDF.
This. I care about graphic design and aesthetics. So when I send a document to a group for review, I’m not taking the risk of giving them something they could mess with.
You can lock other file formats too though
Pdf will always look the same though. A doc/docx file can look wildly different depending on the editor you are using.
Lol
Pointless?? Really? We should have just stuck with postscript? I’m pretty happy with pdf for almost anything as there’s a good chance it’ll render how whoever sent it to me was seeing it. What would you suggest/do different?
The more I think about it PDFs are our fax machine and that shit just needs to go away.
i disagree. Training boomers is easier because they know what computers are. Zoomers often see computers as "web browsing machines" or "gaming machines"
Please don't lump me in with the iPad kids.
Is there some magic to rotating a PDF? I just opened one and there's a button in Firefox saying "Rotate clockwise" and "Rotate anticlockwise". Are we talking something rotating and then saving the PDF so it stays rotated or just rotating it after it's already loaded? Or is this about rotating the PDF so it can be printed out?
I remember a game wouldn't work until i adjusted the screen resolution in like 98
Not true
Millennials think it's them , because they learned how. Gen X knows, because they wrote it.
I would be happy to never see a PDF again, can we not have something better?
I always think it's like complaining that nobody under a certain age can use the card catalog, microfiche or whatever. Technology changes. I have so many leftover now useless skills; please God may the ones related to Adobe rot on that same pile soon.
So, the key takeaway is everyone has a different experience, and that is okay.
Ctrl + Alt + Arrow Key
All my homies hate excel
Can't blame a generation that wasn't raised on computers as well as you can't blame a generation that was raised by algothrims. I'm a millennial too, one of the older ones, and I have felt my tech literacy decay over the past ten years as the cancer that is silicon valley has spread and dominated the internet. It is to the point that I feel so trapped when I try to do anything online that becoming passive feels like the only choice if you play their game.
I have the benefit of remembering what the internet used to be like and what it still has the potential to be in the future, but the youths of today never experienced that. To them the internet is a feeding machine that encourages nay grooms them into becoming passive consumers. I can't blame someone who literally never got the chance to learn because some tech bro scumbags in America decided that they should abuse their power to turn people into addicts.
So what this suggests to me is that zoomers are so up their own cell phones that they never bothered to learn how to use pepper computers. That almost funny. Mocking laughter is warring with weary head shaking in me.
Gen Z is not the same thing as Gen Alpha. Gen Z grew up on PC.
How the fuck do you rotate a pdf
lol did you get this from whoever posted it an hour earlier? Or did you just both get it from the same place?
Crossposted from them as part of ongoing boycotting efforts against the .ml instance.
Though it doesn't show in this case because they put the image link in the body, and I really hate that, so I fixed it on crosspost lmao
To take stuff off .ml you must be reading it - strange version of "boycotting". I just ignore it.
Since Lemmy doesn't suck down data like corporate social media does simply lurking doesn't contribute to an instance's growth.
And when you crosspost that content elsewhere, with no comments or upvoting on the original, it diminishes that instance's power and influence just a bit and contributes to a more decentralized Lemmy-verse
We should be doing the same with .world, not because of toxic propaganda pushing admins, but just so that content is more decentralized in general. But I'm just 1 person who refuses to automate it, soo I can only do so much lmao
On Lemmy, big comms, user counts and content are an instances influence, the more you have the less others will be willing to defederate from you. Kinda why .ml can get away with so much crap
Good explanation, thanks!
This is just following the capitalist model: steal stuff without any credit/payment to the originators, feel smug for "your innovative ideas."
Honesty is an option. Go in with good faith, not like you have the truth. For example, "this publication says....how can I believe the publication's refute? I don't know what to believe because propaganda everywhere. How can I know this isn't propaganda? Additional information please," or something. Then take the time you spend in self-congratulatory mockery to follow up. I mean I honestly dk, I've said some really uninformed stuff over there and am somehow not banned.
Sometimes we just can't always know what to believe and that's okay. I usually just wait for more information, and sometimes that takes a really long time, or never comes.
All my cross-posts that have been identified as OC are credited back to the user in a way that does not link back to the .ml comm
.ml does not return that good faith, I don't consider banning and censoring the opposing view to be welcoming good faith arguments:
https://lemmy.world/post/28480760
https://lemmy.world/post/28481615
https://lemmy.world/post/28482147
https://lemmy.world/post/28480936
https://lemmy.world/post/28482273
https://lemmy.world/post/28481272
https://lemmy.world/post/28481064
https://lemmy.world/post/27674360
https://lemmy.world/post/27674117
https://lemmy.world/post/27673934
https://lemmy.world/post/27673724
https://lemmy.world/post/27577337
https://lemmy.world/post/27378634
https://lemmy.world/post/27346630
https://lemmy.world/post/27341283
https://lemmy.world/post/27288224
https://lemmy.world/post/27156418
https://lemmy.world/post/27054157
https://lemmy.world/post/27008261
For fuck's sake, give us 2005-2007 kids a microgeneration. We're like late zillennials.
ZILLENIALS ARE HEREBY A RECOGNIZED SUBSET OF COMPETENT COMPUTER USERS
Yeah, but I technically fall outside of the zillennial microgen. We're right in the middle of Gen Z, and yet we barely fit the stereotype.
I suspect that's social content fracture at work. If you have the right hobbies, access to the right tools, and move in the right circles, you pick up on this stuff. If you don't, well... 🤷♀️
As a 2007 kid I don't many of my peers actually are but we are pretty different than post 2007 kids. I still grew up with satellite tv for the most part.
How did we fail so hard? Where did we go wrong?
Yea surprise some people are good at using computers some are bad, has nothing to do with whatever generation someone is apart of, generation labels are so dumb. Literally every "milleinal" I've known comes to me for their computer problems.
There should be a class where they force you to install arch Linux without the automated install script and force people to learn how an OS works, or even make them do a Gentoo installation. You only pass it if you get to a fully functioning PC with a web browser and desktop environment
This thread if it was explained by Kayne West. Funny, but mega Slur warning
You're old
Y'all shuda been born around '74 to '94.
And they're almost as conservative as boomers too. Fucking shame.
what does rotating a pdf even mean? like rotating all the pages from portrait → landscape and vice-versa, or something else? could i rotate a pdf 60°?
the x and millieials designed a system to keep them employed and minimized the number of future prospects to replace them. saying with half sarcasm
Fawk you. Boomers are happy, what about you?
Good. We don't need to learn any of this shit. You can do it ourselves and facilitate the tools for us users