This heavily neglected sidewalk, next to the fenced off golf course, alongside a high speed and very busy highway onramp just 2 blocks from a light rail stop, tells you just how much the city cares about the area.
There is no excuse not to cleanup and widen this sidewalk except apathy and malaise from the city.
I’m a fairly generic looking person, we are more than our looks. She has nice glasses and isn’t unattractive or anything it’s just there’s basically nothing there to tell you where the picture is taken. There aren’t even visible brands anywhere.
Other than maybe being able to guess the pacific northwest based those maybe being barefoot shoes, which is still a reach, what else is there?
Also damn, going after me for being “cruel” while reducing her to a stereotype of her city? On a post about sidewalks I mean fuck, who asked you anyway?
You're probably not going to save 95% of the trees given the major earthworks likely needed for managing sewage, stormwater, and other utilities. You'll probably save most of them, though.
40k looks pretty optimistic for the size and number of buildings, too.
Not sure how it works in the US but here in Oz (where water scarcity is always present in our collective psyche) golf courses are usually placed on flood plains where it would be dangerous/too expensive to build housing. In addition most allow people to walk through them and many even allow dog walkers so they have quite a lot of public amenity.
I would still prefer if they were just designated as public parks rather than having huge swathes of grass that needed frequent watering, but they're not nearly as bad as most make them out to be.
Yeah, here in the US, golf courses can be extremely wasteful. There's two golf courses on my drive into the city, one is on a river floodplain, the other is a HOA golf course full of sprinklers that could absolutely be more housing. If I go the other way, there's another HOA golf course that could be housing too. So, to start with, there's three golf courses in a 15km radius.
One of the HOA ones is exclusive access to the surrounding retirement community, the other HOA one doesn't have a fence or anything, but idk if they chase people off. The one on the floodplain you have to pay to access the grounds.
Public golf courses are one of the best things about Oz. They provide a forest island for birds and mammals among the suburbs. Many golf courses have large swathes of natural bushland around them. They are often run by the local council, and are hence not for profit, and generally they are very cheap to play.
They make most of their money via selling beer and expensive golf clubs.
Turn them over to property developers, and they'll pave it with cheaply built single dwelling houses and flog them for way too much money resulting in just more urban desert and padded the obese wallets of billionaires.
That's if they are even build able. Some areas on floodplains and marshes that serve as a local soak for stormwater, hence the water hazards. Some are built on landfills that contain mu icipal waste or even asbestos, hence you can't risk putting houses on them where someone might dig up the asbestos or waste. Turning them into a revenue-generating forest parkland is one of the few good things you can do with that land.
The revenue earned by the golf course that is used to offset local parks and recs costs would otherwise be gained by taxing the local residents through land rates.
I used to hate on them a lot before I learned that the economics of public courses is way different to that of private ones. There are still some private courses, and I wouldn't be opposed to these being taken back into public hands and/or converted into affordable housing. To the gallows with the greedy exclusive fucktillionaires.
Why does it need to be a dedicated park? They're not proposing getting rid of all the green stuff. Even better than having green stuff some distance away is living in the middle of the green stuff.
Look at the picture. There'll be not much green left. They'll only leave the trees alone and based on the figure of 40 000 new residents the buildings will be taller than the trees. I don't think that is great.
Cities are more livable when there are parks every few blocks. I mean big ones, at least half a mile long. People need nature, not a tree here and there.
If you just repurpose for housing you just wind up with 40,000 people needing transit and overloading the system you're trying to promote.
We need to think beyond housing and towards having communities that largely provide the needs of the people living with them. Shops, offices, other non-office/shop jobs, and recreational activities need to be considered as well.
Even Blackrock is affected by supply and demand. We clearly haven’t been building enough in most high demand places and that is not under Blackrocks control. Insufficient supply leads to high prices, regardless of corporate ownership
Let’s start with how can we help supply catch up with demand, then take additional steps if that doesn’t bring prices down
But that runs counter to my need as a developer to bulldoze the entire area, build mcmansions 6 inches apart from eachother and at the barest mimimum of code (and perhaps even lower with a $$friendly$$ inspector), and then plant like a grand total of 5 trees that wont survive the first year.
Oh, and also pave everything over. Gotta pave everything over. No one wants green space! /s
When I was first committing to my no automobile lifestyle, one of the first things that struck me was the pavement. Fucking everywhere.
Next time your about town , take a mental picture. Then subtract the parking lots. The huge road. Put the buildings closer together. Make a nice bikelane, something just wide enough to get a fire engine down. Plant some trees. Pretty nice right?
Instead we have salted earth. It really is just rude to the earth. Fuck your car!
All I want is the infrastructure to be more convenient. I cant walk anywhere unless I want to spend an hour+ walking, which is just impractical when i need to run and grab some fucking garlic powder real quick in the middle of dinner.
Neighborhoods should have special commercial zoning inside of them to allow small shops, cafes, bakeries, etc
Yeah, special commercial zoning, if we can't eliminate restrictions on small businesses in neighborhoods entirely, which should be the end goal. But yeah we desperately need anything we can get.
I feel like neighborhoods not having local small-scale stores is a uniquely American problem.
Here in Brazil every neighborhood is expected to have at least one grocery store, one convenience store, one pharmacy, one bakery, and one gas station. And most of them have a lot more than that, and a dozen other businesses.
Like sure, you have to drive to the city center to get to the big shops and you'll generally have more options if you do, but still.
The exception is like. Specific developments built by and for wealthy people who want to Live Away From The Poors ™️ in a tropical imitation of American Suburbia. But THOSE people are there by choice.
@VinesNFluff@A_Random_Idiot Yup, and yet the US and its consulting firms desperately try to export this failure to other countries and expect to be paid for their "expertise" in how to destroy cities.
My local public golf course was closed and sold to developers a few years back.
Promises were made to the community of keeping all the trees and lots of green space, as there was vicious community opposition.
The developers have of course instead done what you suggest, and every house is crammed in next to each other just like every other new suburb. Its still in progress but it looks like once they're done you wouldn't even know it used to be a golf course.
This meme is so stupid because it doesn't present an even remotely possible outcome.
A far better option is to keep the public golf courses for people to spend time outdoors and to provide homes for wildlife - and then remove regulations limiting building heights to encourage multi-storey development.
Build up, not out - because once green space becomes houses it never changes back.
Golf courses aren't inherently bad, but I think just about every one out there is weirdly exclusive and definitely wastes water.
Disc golf is a good example of a sport that doesn't monopolize space. It's built into existing trails. Generally speaking the public can't walk on golf cart trails (I'm sure there are exceptions)
There are city-owned golf course around me that I presume aren't that exclusive (I dunno, I don't play). That said, they're also implicated in draining all sorts of toxins into the local waterways.
I think they are inherently bad. They waste water, their turf needs constant care that puts nasty stuff into the rest of the water supply, and the space can't be used for anything else. It's not merely a game, either; it's the defacto way for rich people to network and talk about how they're fucking the rest of us.
Disc golf is just sticking a few goals into otherwise typical park. You are gently tossing a soft disc over maybe 60-90 meters so you don't need to be extra careful to make the way clear.
Golf by its nature demands huge amounts of space for few people to enjoy. Further the landscaping and irrigation demands on a golf course are immense. You can't have too many things on a course or people walking around, because a pretty hard ball comes flying from 200 meters away.
Ok, guess I may not have exposure to the scene as much. My experience is probably more 'filthy casual' level, at a few parks and a corporate campus that seems to just have goals installed without much regard for where the trails are, and the few times I've participated it was just random folks with pretty mundane frisbees.
This is Jackson Park golf course, owned by Seattle Parks and Rec. It is one of the cheapest ways to play the game in all of Seattle.
It opened May 12, 1930. That's before the Interstate and the light rail.
There are plenty of places to shit on golf courses. This one is probably a miss. Without mixed use space, this area has been a heavy car use zone with low walkability. The section from the freeway north of the park is also a steep hill, reducing the accessibility of the area.
Additionally, the plans provided do not meet the requirements for development. Specifically, how are you going to get a fire truck to the six story buildings in the middle. Is there enough space for.emergeny services to maneuver and to keep a fire from jumping buildings.
Talk and MS Paint is cheap. Good urban planning in not.
Most suburban streets are 50 feet wide, many suburban front yards are 50 feet deep. That's a wasted space 150 feet wide and however long the street is long. Think of how much housing could be built in that space if you tore up that road, and in its place put a pair of alleyways housing in the middle
I did some measuring on Google Earth and the distance from sidewalk (or on roads without a sidewalk from the road) to the front of houses in a major city nearish to me and found a few neighborhoods 50 feet to the house was about the standard. They also had 50 foot deep backyards!
That’s way over simplification. Higher density neighborhoods have been a feature of cities Ed since cities existed, and plenty of successes were planned ahead.
Soviet Union had many failing but the general idea is not one of them. Perhaps the failing here is centrally planning such districts without regard for what people want.
Modern societies instead use things like zoning to guide development while leaving the details up to developers. we’re used to complaining about zoning when it creates exclusive single family home neighborhoods but it can also serve as a tool to guide walkable or transit oriented neighborhoods or more affordable housing without relying on central planning
Keeping all of the trees while also building a 40,000 unit apartment building on the same lot is gonna be a bit of a trick. Unless the building is 30 stories high. That might be normal in New York, but that’s not something you’re gonna see very much outside of the city.
I’m all for vertical city building, but keep in mind what is likely to happen in your local community.
I wish we'd just do non luxury apartment high rises with underground parking in HCOL areas. Then there is room for green spaces, and more people can be accommodated.
Parking is always expensive, and even more so for underground. The counter argument is that you can build much cheaper without, so the units can be more affordable.
I don’t entirely buy that, since developers could already choose less high end finishing for more affordable units and they usually don’t.
Also, “less parking” is not the same as “no parking” and that hinges on their being useful transit or walkability. I know that’s one of the points of a district like this, but this is why you do need to think big, so that an individual developer can make the choice
See also “transit oriented development”. Boston is one of the cities that has been pursuing that idea. Recently it was extended into the suburbs with new higher density zoning being a requirement for every community served by the regional transit authority
All that goes up are luxury units that nobody can afford and it is usually the same stick built BS that is inefficient in use of space and adds more tarmac
Sure, but zoning has some effect - developers will build to maximize their profit within what is allowed by zoning.
if zoning allows multiple units, they maximize profits by building as many as they can
if zoning requires less parking, they may maximize profits by replacing some parking space with more units (assuming sufficient transit to allow them to sell)
if zoning creates areas of higher density, a town center type of area can create a synergy that draws more people, more profit.
while not everyone wants to live in a town center or a large building, more housing supply can drive down prices for everyone: supply and demand
I’m not claiming zoning is sufficient nor does it act quickly but it can be a tool for improving livability, setting the conditions for developers to profit more by building what the town benefits from.
Currently zoning is mostly a weapon enforcing the status quo, but it doesn’t have to be
1 and 3 are not good reasons not to try something like this. 2 feels like bad faith because this isn't either of those things, it's a golf course. Less than a quarter of golf courses in the US are freely open to the public, and a quarter of them are members only. That's thousands of golf courses that are taking up space/land and water and returning next to nothing of value to the community or the environment, or worse than nothing in many cases.
Sure I’m not arguing against, per se, more that it’s not enough to be worth worrying about.
Of the private golf course that are where people would want to live and where transit would be viable, that would not be better turned to more public parks and recreation, and where a locality can afford eminent domain, go for it. I’m sure there there are such projects. However I’m also convinced it would be a lot of work and expense for a vanishingly small percentage increase in housing supply.
Just as soon as somebody buys the LA and and develops it into affordable homes. Because I'm sure as hell never gonna be rich enough to fix a stupid golf course into something useful.
In the United States of America, the average lot size for a single-family home is 0.19 acres (which is equivalent to 8,176 square feet). This math means that around 5 average-sized single-family homes can fit into one acre of land.
So even if we're talking regular single-family homes you can already build 800.
Many trees do very well in the shade, as long as their crowns get sun part of the day. Leave some room between buildings and you can easily build 4-6 stories tall and still have trees in between. You can easily fit 20 apartments per acre that way. That's about 3200 apartments. With 3 people per household that's close to 10k people.
I agree 40k is optimistic, but 400 is way pessimistic
Look at me on my .23 acres, essentially a sprawling compound. It's really a perfect size.
I don't think the setup here is at all realistic. ADA would probably have some qualms with it. I have seen golf courses repurposed for residential though, and it's great.
I see a lot of people saying build up not out, but you still need a place without houses to build denser housing (parking oceans should be place #1). I would keep way more of the green space than they do (and add in some community gardens?), but this might be a good option depending on the surrounding (sub)urban context. Its certainly not a good option for every (or probably most) golf course, but its going to be the best option sometimes.
my suburb is build on old light industrial area. close to everything, great transport and bike paths.
the main problem we have is land banking property developers just sit on land and wait for its value to go up so they can flip and make bank for doing nothing. also what gets built is to maximise profits not provide appropriate housing for all, so we get a lot of "executive suites" with italian tiles, european appliance and other wank shit that's only there to drive up the price.
the answer as always is good quality public housing available to all (see vienna and singapore).
Compare the space between them to the space between the blocks that exist. There's way more space.
Also, do tell what the reason is besides it just being cheaper to build on empty land? If this isn't meant to be a car centric neighbourhood, you really don't need everything to be straight.
For people with no assistance that just have to walk, it's ableist and hateful. And if you really had mobility issues, you'd be against these dystopian car-hating people, too.
I'm happy you're disabled enough and/or rich enough to get fancy-ass fucking disabled bikes for yourself. Privileged shitlords. The rest of us are fucked.
Because public services and transportation hasn't and can't provide services to disabled people? You really think that? Fuck man, these systems can work and provide for you easily. Japan and the Netherlands have a lot of handicap support and you can get around without needing to be privileged. I hope you get the help you need.
I'm not. But you're unwilling to have a productive conversation. With unproductive language. So it's pointless to really continue this.
Both countries still have cars. You can still get around with a car. The idea is to reduce car usage so that people that have a need for a car can and with less traffic. You'll get to point a and b quicker without people that don't need a car clogging the street. But hey I'm apparently being ableist. When you're willing to be productive in conversation we can continue with this. But if you're gonna be thick about it. I'm not interested in continuing this.
Fun fact: massive parking lots also cause problems for those with mobility issues. So do really wide roads. Dense and therefore walkable city infrastructure is also the most disability-friendly city infrastructure, full stop.
What. Effective public transport and less car centric infrastructure is far and away better for those with mobility issues. Walkable areas does not mean the abolishment of cars, it means more effective use of space and transport. Try visiting Austria or the Netherlands. Getting around is far, FAR easier than any city in the US. I have mobility issues, and require a cane to get around if I'm standing for significant periods, and yet the easiest time I had getting around was the time I spent in Vienna after living in different parts of the US for my whole life.
Bus. Tram. Subway. Train. And yes, I do drive if necessary. Walkable does not mean walking is mandatory, and a huge part of the push for a decrease in car only infrastructure is the increase in public transportation. The idea isn't to remove the ability for cars to exist, but to make other forms of transportation accessible and possible, and make reliance on cars a thing of the past. I don't know why you've got it so wrapped up in your head that cars are going to vanish and we will only be walking, as if there aren't dozens of other forms of transportation accessible for those of us with disabilities. The time I've spent living in places with good public transportation is the most independence and self determination I've experienced. I'm not lying, you're just disingenuous, stupid, or misinformed.
I'm not hateful. The bus stop is never more than a short walk away. If you need a car to go 100 feet, then you shouldn't be living alone. Do you think every disabled person is stupid? I'm not going to choose an apartment up 3 flights of stairs on the other end of the block from the bus stop. I'm going to use the ADA apartment on the ground floor that is a shorter walk to the bus stop than half the parking lot. If I need to get somewhere that I can't access with public transportation without excessive walking, I'll drive or get my fiancee to drive me. I'm sorry you think I'm hateful for sharing my own lived experience. That's on you for lack of comprehension, not me.
Edit: And again, I USE CARS. I will continue to use cars when necessary. An increase in walkable cities and good public transportation means the roads will be more free for those that need them! It's just an all around win, even if you absolutely need a car for any form of transport for some odd reason (even those that require a wheelchair use public transport over cars in most cities that have good transportation, because the infrastructure is built with us in mind).
You. Don't. Have. To. Use your car! It's not being taken away! You will have EASIER access to the roads with less people on them. I'm genuinely dumbfounded by your inability to understand this, or your apparent belief that disabled people either don't live in or don't use public transportation in places that have great transport. Seriously. You're fighting ghosts here with how off the mark you are.
Why wouldn't it make more sense to provide mobility assistance like motorized chairs for the 1% of users who need such to get them to and from transit options including parking even if its not house side.
Let's also get rid of golf courses in arid deserts in the midst of droughts
You had me at "Let’s get rid of golf courses"
This is a municipal course as well, so Seattle could literally do this. The city government doesn't want to.
This heavily neglected sidewalk, next to the fenced off golf course, alongside a high speed and very busy highway onramp just 2 blocks from a light rail stop, tells you just how much the city cares about the area.
There is no excuse not to cleanup and widen this sidewalk except apathy and malaise from the city.
That lady is Seattle personified.
A fairly generic lady and that’s what you took from that guy’s comment?
There’s nothing generic about that lady in fact that’s a pretty cruel thing to say about someone.
I’m a fairly generic looking person, we are more than our looks. She has nice glasses and isn’t unattractive or anything it’s just there’s basically nothing there to tell you where the picture is taken. There aren’t even visible brands anywhere.
Other than maybe being able to guess the pacific northwest based those maybe being barefoot shoes, which is still a reach, what else is there?
Also damn, going after me for being “cruel” while reducing her to a stereotype of her city? On a post about sidewalks I mean fuck, who asked you anyway?
Sorry, I didn’t mean any offense but it really feels like you’re trying to start a fight here and I don’t want any of that.
You're probably not going to save 95% of the trees given the major earthworks likely needed for managing sewage, stormwater, and other utilities. You'll probably save most of them, though.
40k looks pretty optimistic for the size and number of buildings, too.
I was wondering that too... maybe they meant: plant new trees, and the total number of new trees would be 95% of the number of old trees?
I’m guessing they’re just not aware of construction impacts on trees. It’s not something most people think about.
I supposed they meant "And this amount of space is still available for greenery" rather than "These, specific, trees will be preserved"
Depends how many floors they have but yeah, that would be quite high density at 60k/km²
I don't know if it's the same in USA but with all these new regulations building houses these days is an environmental disaster
Not sure how it works in the US but here in Oz (where water scarcity is always present in our collective psyche) golf courses are usually placed on flood plains where it would be dangerous/too expensive to build housing. In addition most allow people to walk through them and many even allow dog walkers so they have quite a lot of public amenity.
I would still prefer if they were just designated as public parks rather than having huge swathes of grass that needed frequent watering, but they're not nearly as bad as most make them out to be.
Yeah, here in the US, golf courses can be extremely wasteful. There's two golf courses on my drive into the city, one is on a river floodplain, the other is a HOA golf course full of sprinklers that could absolutely be more housing. If I go the other way, there's another HOA golf course that could be housing too. So, to start with, there's three golf courses in a 15km radius.
One of the HOA ones is exclusive access to the surrounding retirement community, the other HOA one doesn't have a fence or anything, but idk if they chase people off. The one on the floodplain you have to pay to access the grounds.
But you know you have to be a certified rich asshole to live in those HOAs.
Public golf courses are one of the best things about Oz. They provide a forest island for birds and mammals among the suburbs. Many golf courses have large swathes of natural bushland around them. They are often run by the local council, and are hence not for profit, and generally they are very cheap to play.
They make most of their money via selling beer and expensive golf clubs.
Turn them over to property developers, and they'll pave it with cheaply built single dwelling houses and flog them for way too much money resulting in just more urban desert and padded the obese wallets of billionaires.
That's if they are even build able. Some areas on floodplains and marshes that serve as a local soak for stormwater, hence the water hazards. Some are built on landfills that contain mu icipal waste or even asbestos, hence you can't risk putting houses on them where someone might dig up the asbestos or waste. Turning them into a revenue-generating forest parkland is one of the few good things you can do with that land.
The revenue earned by the golf course that is used to offset local parks and recs costs would otherwise be gained by taxing the local residents through land rates.
I used to hate on them a lot before I learned that the economics of public courses is way different to that of private ones. There are still some private courses, and I wouldn't be opposed to these being taken back into public hands and/or converted into affordable housing. To the gallows with the greedy exclusive fucktillionaires.
In Germany most courses only have a few public walkways and if you leave them security will escort you right out
I work at a golf course and I'd rather be doing something meaningful like building homes so this post speaks to me directly.
Unfortunately the big thing lately is we've been dropping a bunch of trees.
Why building something on it instead of converting it into a park? People love green stuff, you know.
Why does it need to be a dedicated park? They're not proposing getting rid of all the green stuff. Even better than having green stuff some distance away is living in the middle of the green stuff.
Interesting idea. I'm not sure if that works everywhere but it's a start. :)
Look at the picture. There'll be not much green left. They'll only leave the trees alone and based on the figure of 40 000 new residents the buildings will be taller than the trees. I don't think that is great.
Cities are more livable when there are parks every few blocks. I mean big ones, at least half a mile long. People need nature, not a tree here and there.
Exactly, this is why we should legalise weed!
I think the proposed homes near the highway should be forested as a buffer.
Because rich people need money to build a bigger golf course somewhere else
because poor people are already living on the golf course and would really appreciate roofs
In lots of cities vacancy rates are too low making it hard to find housing
This particular golf course is a park. Seattle Parks and Rec uses a management company, but it is one of the cheapest ways to play.
https://premiergc.com/-jackson-park-golf-course
If you just repurpose for housing you just wind up with 40,000 people needing transit and overloading the system you're trying to promote.
We need to think beyond housing and towards having communities that largely provide the needs of the people living with them. Shops, offices, other non-office/shop jobs, and recreational activities need to be considered as well.
The neat part is that businesses can be in the bottom couple of floors. Though often this doesn't seem to be done unless it's the CBD...
BuT wHeRe WouLd i PaRk mY cAr?!?!!?
That's the neat part, you don't.
car
car go
car go bye
cargo bike
if I saw this on a billboard/poster I'd have a new bike
Truly the poet of our generation 🥲
Preach!
In the water hazard on the 14th hole.
The best part about this is that this will give blackrock more homes to purchase with cash to the rent out to people at ridiculous prices. /s
Sorry, I've become way to cynical these days about virtually everything, I need to go touch grass.
We need to go touch pitchforks.
https://youtu.be/acT_PSAZ7BQ
You should move to a golf-neighbourhood.
There's a few solutions out there to this, but it's going to take a push to get city councils to agree to them.
The city can provide loan guarantees to co-operative housing projects. Once the loan is paid off, everyone owns their condo.
The city can also build its own housing rather than relying on developers.
Even Blackrock is affected by supply and demand. We clearly haven’t been building enough in most high demand places and that is not under Blackrocks control. Insufficient supply leads to high prices, regardless of corporate ownership
Let’s start with how can we help supply catch up with demand, then take additional steps if that doesn’t bring prices down
But that runs counter to my need as a developer to bulldoze the entire area, build mcmansions 6 inches apart from eachother and at the barest mimimum of code (and perhaps even lower with a $$friendly$$ inspector), and then plant like a grand total of 5 trees that wont survive the first year.
Oh, and also pave everything over. Gotta pave everything over. No one wants green space! /s
When I was first committing to my no automobile lifestyle, one of the first things that struck me was the pavement. Fucking everywhere.
Next time your about town , take a mental picture. Then subtract the parking lots. The huge road. Put the buildings closer together. Make a nice bikelane, something just wide enough to get a fire engine down. Plant some trees. Pretty nice right?
Instead we have salted earth. It really is just rude to the earth. Fuck your car!
All I want is the infrastructure to be more convenient. I cant walk anywhere unless I want to spend an hour+ walking, which is just impractical when i need to run and grab some fucking garlic powder real quick in the middle of dinner.
Neighborhoods should have special commercial zoning inside of them to allow small shops, cafes, bakeries, etc
Agreed. A corner store, bakery, and a few other odds and ends as a cluster would be pretty solid.
I hate not being able to just... walk to what I need.
Yeah, special commercial zoning, if we can't eliminate restrictions on small businesses in neighborhoods entirely, which should be the end goal. But yeah we desperately need anything we can get.
They do exist, even in the US. In general, look for a place that was built out before cars were everywhere
I feel like neighborhoods not having local small-scale stores is a uniquely American problem.
Here in Brazil every neighborhood is expected to have at least one grocery store, one convenience store, one pharmacy, one bakery, and one gas station. And most of them have a lot more than that, and a dozen other businesses.
Like sure, you have to drive to the city center to get to the big shops and you'll generally have more options if you do, but still.
The exception is like. Specific developments built by and for wealthy people who want to Live Away From The Poors ™️ in a tropical imitation of American Suburbia. But THOSE people are there by choice.
@VinesNFluff @A_Random_Idiot Yup, and yet the US and its consulting firms desperately try to export this failure to other countries and expect to be paid for their "expertise" in how to destroy cities.
Welcome to why the sim city games don't have visible parking. They consciously removed parking spaces because it spread everything out too far.
My local public golf course was closed and sold to developers a few years back.
Promises were made to the community of keeping all the trees and lots of green space, as there was vicious community opposition.
The developers have of course instead done what you suggest, and every house is crammed in next to each other just like every other new suburb. Its still in progress but it looks like once they're done you wouldn't even know it used to be a golf course.
This meme is so stupid because it doesn't present an even remotely possible outcome. A far better option is to keep the public golf courses for people to spend time outdoors and to provide homes for wildlife - and then remove regulations limiting building heights to encourage multi-storey development.
Build up, not out - because once green space becomes houses it never changes back.
Ahem... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pripyat
Generally speaking, when it takes a nuclear reactor meltdown to reclaim space that is... what is the word...
Terrible.
When there's no more golf you'll know the rich fucks are gone.
Plus you can live in a pentagon! Just not the Pentagon.
in hell
On Mars
Now add in mixed use zoning, and affordable housing units and this could be a winner
Not for nothing, but this wouldn't fly in the USA. You'd need to replace most of those trees with roads.
Or better yet, reduce the number of housing units and keep the trees.
This is Seattle btw, but I think the meme is that it won't fly.
Golf courses aren't inherently bad, but I think just about every one out there is weirdly exclusive and definitely wastes water.
Disc golf is a good example of a sport that doesn't monopolize space. It's built into existing trails. Generally speaking the public can't walk on golf cart trails (I'm sure there are exceptions)
There are city-owned golf course around me that I presume aren't that exclusive (I dunno, I don't play). That said, they're also implicated in draining all sorts of toxins into the local waterways.
I think they are inherently bad. They waste water, their turf needs constant care that puts nasty stuff into the rest of the water supply, and the space can't be used for anything else. It's not merely a game, either; it's the defacto way for rich people to network and talk about how they're fucking the rest of us.
Disc golf is just sticking a few goals into otherwise typical park. You are gently tossing a soft disc over maybe 60-90 meters so you don't need to be extra careful to make the way clear.
Golf by its nature demands huge amounts of space for few people to enjoy. Further the landscaping and irrigation demands on a golf course are immense. You can't have too many things on a course or people walking around, because a pretty hard ball comes flying from 200 meters away.
Correction: The discs are not soft. They are hard and can be sharp-edged as well. Keeping throws away from walking and bike paths is super critical.
Ok, guess I may not have exposure to the scene as much. My experience is probably more 'filthy casual' level, at a few parks and a corporate campus that seems to just have goals installed without much regard for where the trails are, and the few times I've participated it was just random folks with pretty mundane frisbees.
Minigolf is the superior and family-friendly alternative to golf, TBH.
I do. It is a giant waste of fucking space and resources so that some rich people can enjoy hitting a ball around.
The worst part is usually they take an undeveloped scenic natural space and turn it into a waste of water that pollutes from all the lawn chemicals.
Same weirdos who defend the horrid use of land will say "Fuck off we're full" to immigrants trying to not die from wars and ethnic cleansing.
The US is very sparsely populated overall. Of course cities are densely populated, but that's because they're cities.
This is Jackson Park golf course, owned by Seattle Parks and Rec. It is one of the cheapest ways to play the game in all of Seattle.
It opened May 12, 1930. That's before the Interstate and the light rail.
There are plenty of places to shit on golf courses. This one is probably a miss. Without mixed use space, this area has been a heavy car use zone with low walkability. The section from the freeway north of the park is also a steep hill, reducing the accessibility of the area.
Additionally, the plans provided do not meet the requirements for development. Specifically, how are you going to get a fire truck to the six story buildings in the middle. Is there enough space for.emergeny services to maneuver and to keep a fire from jumping buildings.
Talk and MS Paint is cheap. Good urban planning in not.
Reminds me of AtomEve's situation in Invincible. Everyone think they are an architect till shit isn't engineered correctly.
Okay, so put a road or two through the middle for emergency access. The walk ability part is supposed to be solved by the light rail they mentioned.
Most suburban streets are 50 feet wide, many suburban front yards are 50 feet deep. That's a wasted space 150 feet wide and however long the street is long. Think of how much housing could be built in that space if you tore up that road, and in its place put a pair of alleyways housing in the middle
Good luck with the NIMBYs. Or NIMFYs now I guess?
Oh yeah it would never actually happen but a person can dream, right?
I would argue closer to 30, unless you’re including all the easement and sidewalks?
I did some measuring on Google Earth and the distance from sidewalk (or on roads without a sidewalk from the road) to the front of houses in a major city nearish to me and found a few neighborhoods 50 feet to the house was about the standard. They also had 50 foot deep backyards!
Interesting and wider than I would have thought!
What if we just altered zoning laws so they don't restrict high-density residential buildings?
Oh, they didn't change that, people living there need to get real good at dodging golf balls.
This is literally how ussr built things
Micro-Districts are a solid idea. While the USSR had many problems, this was not one of them.
That’s way over simplification. Higher density neighborhoods have been a feature of cities Ed since cities existed, and plenty of successes were planned ahead.
Soviet Union had many failing but the general idea is not one of them. Perhaps the failing here is centrally planning such districts without regard for what people want.
Modern societies instead use things like zoning to guide development while leaving the details up to developers. we’re used to complaining about zoning when it creates exclusive single family home neighborhoods but it can also serve as a tool to guide walkable or transit oriented neighborhoods or more affordable housing without relying on central planning
But where would we play golf?
Keeping all of the trees while also building a 40,000 unit apartment building on the same lot is gonna be a bit of a trick. Unless the building is 30 stories high. That might be normal in New York, but that’s not something you’re gonna see very much outside of the city.
I’m all for vertical city building, but keep in mind what is likely to happen in your local community.
I'm pretty sure you've misunderstood the idea here in a couple of ways
No, I get it. I was just trying to make a joke.
Apparently, it wasn’t very funny.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
🤤
Yeah but then rich fucks wouldn’t have a place all to themselves to be rich fucks, so that’s a fuck you, poors, just be rich like us, thanks.
I guess that technically counts as a public sex forest then
Lovely weather we're having in Minneapolis this weekend!
Edit: Here, for anyone who didn't get the joke. NSFW
Thank you so much for sharing this.
https://youtu.be/Z4w7H48tBS8?si=gkcLGcbCK6sGEYTu
I wish we'd just do non luxury apartment high rises with underground parking in HCOL areas. Then there is room for green spaces, and more people can be accommodated.
Parking is always expensive, and even more so for underground. The counter argument is that you can build much cheaper without, so the units can be more affordable.
I don’t entirely buy that, since developers could already choose less high end finishing for more affordable units and they usually don’t.
Also, “less parking” is not the same as “no parking” and that hinges on their being useful transit or walkability. I know that’s one of the points of a district like this, but this is why you do need to think big, so that an individual developer can make the choice
See also “transit oriented development”. Boston is one of the cities that has been pursuing that idea. Recently it was extended into the suburbs with new higher density zoning being a requirement for every community served by the regional transit authority
All that goes up are luxury units that nobody can afford and it is usually the same stick built BS that is inefficient in use of space and adds more tarmac
Sure, but zoning has some effect - developers will build to maximize their profit within what is allowed by zoning.
I’m not claiming zoning is sufficient nor does it act quickly but it can be a tool for improving livability, setting the conditions for developers to profit more by building what the town benefits from.
Currently zoning is mostly a weapon enforcing the status quo, but it doesn’t have to be
There isn’t any context on where this is, but:
1 and 3 are not good reasons not to try something like this. 2 feels like bad faith because this isn't either of those things, it's a golf course. Less than a quarter of golf courses in the US are freely open to the public, and a quarter of them are members only. That's thousands of golf courses that are taking up space/land and water and returning next to nothing of value to the community or the environment, or worse than nothing in many cases.
Source for numbers: https://mygolfspy.com/news-opinion/study-percentage-of-public-vs-private-courses-in-the-us/
Sure I’m not arguing against, per se, more that it’s not enough to be worth worrying about.
Of the private golf course that are where people would want to live and where transit would be viable, that would not be better turned to more public parks and recreation, and where a locality can afford eminent domain, go for it. I’m sure there there are such projects. However I’m also convinced it would be a lot of work and expense for a vanishingly small percentage increase in housing supply.
Just as soon as somebody buys the LA and and develops it into affordable homes. Because I'm sure as hell never gonna be rich enough to fix a stupid golf course into something useful.
That area should hold about 400 people, not 40,000. The trees won't survive unless they can see the sky.
(Source)
So even if we're talking regular single-family homes you can already build 800.
Many trees do very well in the shade, as long as their crowns get sun part of the day. Leave some room between buildings and you can easily build 4-6 stories tall and still have trees in between. You can easily fit 20 apartments per acre that way. That's about 3200 apartments. With 3 people per household that's close to 10k people.
I agree 40k is optimistic, but 400 is way pessimistic
Look at me on my .23 acres, essentially a sprawling compound. It's really a perfect size.
I don't think the setup here is at all realistic. ADA would probably have some qualms with it. I have seen golf courses repurposed for residential though, and it's great.
or we could not sacrifice our very limited green space to property developers overlords?!
i'm not saying don't use green space better.. but keep it green.
ps: i live in a very high density area and love it... but build up not out.
Public park > private golf course
I see a lot of people saying build up not out, but you still need a place without houses to build denser housing (parking oceans should be place #1). I would keep way more of the green space than they do (and add in some community gardens?), but this might be a good option depending on the surrounding (sub)urban context. Its certainly not a good option for every (or probably most) golf course, but its going to be the best option sometimes.
my suburb is build on old light industrial area. close to everything, great transport and bike paths.
the main problem we have is land banking property developers just sit on land and wait for its value to go up so they can flip and make bank for doing nothing. also what gets built is to maximise profits not provide appropriate housing for all, so we get a lot of "executive suites" with italian tiles, european appliance and other wank shit that's only there to drive up the price.
the answer as always is good quality public housing available to all (see vienna and singapore).
What are all those stupid shapes, and why does it look like there about 3 feet between each one?
Looks like normal European four-story buildings. I live in one with some strange corners. No Problem with them.
There's no reason cities have to be boring squares. And those shapes could preserve the most trees.
There's a reason houses aren't shaped really oddly. Also a reason there's more space between them.
Compare the space between them to the space between the blocks that exist. There's way more space.
Also, do tell what the reason is besides it just being cheaper to build on empty land? If this isn't meant to be a car centric neighbourhood, you really don't need everything to be straight.
Cause no way in crap would that many people living that close together not cause issues
Under which rock have you been living? Ever heard of "a city"?
imagine being so antisocial that you'd rather drive to buy some fucking bread
you should visit honkers
You people just want to give a huge middle finger to every single person with mobility issues, don't you?
Fuck you.
I have mobility issues and car infrastructure does nothing for me and in many cases makes my life harder.
Nobody said you couldn't build paths between places.
Fuck you.
For people with no assistance that just have to walk, it's ableist and hateful. And if you really had mobility issues, you'd be against these dystopian car-hating people, too.
https://cyclingfallacies.com/en/6/people-with-physical-disabilities-can%E2%80%99t-cycle
Thanks for the link! I’m saving that!
I'm happy you're disabled enough and/or rich enough to get fancy-ass fucking disabled bikes for yourself. Privileged shitlords. The rest of us are fucked.
Because public services and transportation hasn't and can't provide services to disabled people? You really think that? Fuck man, these systems can work and provide for you easily. Japan and the Netherlands have a lot of handicap support and you can get around without needing to be privileged. I hope you get the help you need.
I'm not. But you're unwilling to have a productive conversation. With unproductive language. So it's pointless to really continue this.
Both countries still have cars. You can still get around with a car. The idea is to reduce car usage so that people that have a need for a car can and with less traffic. You'll get to point a and b quicker without people that don't need a car clogging the street. But hey I'm apparently being ableist. When you're willing to be productive in conversation we can continue with this. But if you're gonna be thick about it. I'm not interested in continuing this.
What the fuck? I'm in the poorest
5%4% bracket of my countryWhy do you love dystopian cars?
Fun fact: massive parking lots also cause problems for those with mobility issues. So do really wide roads. Dense and therefore walkable city infrastructure is also the most disability-friendly city infrastructure, full stop.
God, I don't want to imagine how awful it must be for a person with mobility problems to cross those wide ass roads they have in the US...
What. Effective public transport and less car centric infrastructure is far and away better for those with mobility issues. Walkable areas does not mean the abolishment of cars, it means more effective use of space and transport. Try visiting Austria or the Netherlands. Getting around is far, FAR easier than any city in the US. I have mobility issues, and require a cane to get around if I'm standing for significant periods, and yet the easiest time I had getting around was the time I spent in Vienna after living in different parts of the US for my whole life.
Bus. Tram. Subway. Train. And yes, I do drive if necessary. Walkable does not mean walking is mandatory, and a huge part of the push for a decrease in car only infrastructure is the increase in public transportation. The idea isn't to remove the ability for cars to exist, but to make other forms of transportation accessible and possible, and make reliance on cars a thing of the past. I don't know why you've got it so wrapped up in your head that cars are going to vanish and we will only be walking, as if there aren't dozens of other forms of transportation accessible for those of us with disabilities. The time I've spent living in places with good public transportation is the most independence and self determination I've experienced. I'm not lying, you're just disingenuous, stupid, or misinformed.
I'm not hateful. The bus stop is never more than a short walk away. If you need a car to go 100 feet, then you shouldn't be living alone. Do you think every disabled person is stupid? I'm not going to choose an apartment up 3 flights of stairs on the other end of the block from the bus stop. I'm going to use the ADA apartment on the ground floor that is a shorter walk to the bus stop than half the parking lot. If I need to get somewhere that I can't access with public transportation without excessive walking, I'll drive or get my fiancee to drive me. I'm sorry you think I'm hateful for sharing my own lived experience. That's on you for lack of comprehension, not me.
Edit: And again, I USE CARS. I will continue to use cars when necessary. An increase in walkable cities and good public transportation means the roads will be more free for those that need them! It's just an all around win, even if you absolutely need a car for any form of transport for some odd reason (even those that require a wheelchair use public transport over cars in most cities that have good transportation, because the infrastructure is built with us in mind).
You. Don't. Have. To. Use your car! It's not being taken away! You will have EASIER access to the roads with less people on them. I'm genuinely dumbfounded by your inability to understand this, or your apparent belief that disabled people either don't live in or don't use public transportation in places that have great transport. Seriously. You're fighting ghosts here with how off the mark you are.
Why wouldn't it make more sense to provide mobility assistance like motorized chairs for the 1% of users who need such to get them to and from transit options including parking even if its not house side.
Lol, what makes you assume they couldn't build parking?
I fucking hate me, so this tracks