I love how the propagandists just keep beating the same drum after the Biden administration has constructed a ceasefire deal which has received unanimous UN Security Council support, and did appear to be moving forward until about 14 hours ago. (Edit: It might still, that's not over yet.)
It's almost like if the US just turns its back on Israel, we'd lose our leverage to press a negotiated agreement, which would surely not end with Israel digging in their heels even further. (/s) It's almost like geopolitics are - wait for it - complicated.
Second Edit: Let's also not forget that Israel is a nuclear power. What do you think happens when Israel's back is against the wall, they're running out of conventional weapons, and Iran and/or other groups decide to take advantage?
It was unanimous because Russia abstained. Putin loves the refocus on Israel while he continues his genocidal war crimes in Ukraine under the US media radar.
For those who haven’t been keeping up, Russia has abducted 700,000 Ukrainian children to be raised as Russians in foster homes since the war began. It’s genocide on a scale 20 times larger than Palestine, and isn’t making national headlines in the US due to the focus on Israel.
The US formally declared this as genocide in the House of Representatives with a 390-9 vote in April by invoking the UN Genocide Convention, and the ICC has issued arrest warrants. Did you see any headlines about that?
Russia is also the largest investor in the sanctioned Iran economy that is directly funding Hamas, Hezbollah, and the Houthis.
I was sceptical of this claim so I did some research - 700,000 is almost certainly too high, but other than that it's disturbingly true:
The 700,000 number comes from a Russian parliamentarian in 2023, and refers to orphaned and abandoned children Russia has 'protected' from conflict zones in Ukraine. A later Russian report walked this back a bit, and claimed that most of this number were children accompanied by family voluntarily escaping the fighting by feeling into Russia.
Obviously we should be sceptical of what Russia says about this, but this is not the same number as the number of children abducted - not even Ukraine alleges it to be this high.
The number of children abducted and forcibly deported was officially reported by Kyev to be 19,000 to 20,000 at the time of the above claim based on the data (nearly 30,000 now). The real number is almost certainly higher - many Ukranian officials believe the actual amount is higher, with one saying it may be into the 'hundreds of
thousands'. A US report in 2022 estimates that Russia has "interrogated, detained, and forcibly deported... 260,000 children, from their homes to Russia"
Even if we take only the low amount that can be fairly positively stated as abductions, that's nearly 30,000 children. Various reports have shown some of these children being given new Russian identities and false birth certificates, and being put up for adoption in Russia. Some have testified to being indoctrinated and shown pro-Kremlin propaganda.
This broadly constitutes Cultural Genocide - whether it technically is or not is for academics to argue over, because the legal definition of genocide is complicated and so much is unkown.
Whether or not you want to call it a Genocide, it is undeniably a War Crime. The ICC has issued arrest warrents for Putin and Russian Children's Rights Commissioner Maria Lvova-Belova over this.
When the US congress deems there to be a genocide, the truth is always the opposite of their conclusion. If the Holocaust was going on today, congress would rule unanimously there to be no genocide.
I get what you’re saying, but I’m pretty damn sure you’re confusing Americans’ inability to focus on more than one issue at a time with the seemingly catch-all “bots!” thing.
Don’t attribute to malice what can easily be attributed to stupidity/ignorance/laziness.
No, what everyone here seems to talk about is how the President is supporting genocide, while failing to mention that Biden alone can’t do anything to fund Israel.
Where are you seeing any criticism towards the GOP? All I’m seeing are the same “Genocide Joe” and “Both Sides” people being the most vocal.
Yeah, given it's a center stance and not remotely a partisan issue in this election it's probably better not to talk about it outside of the context of supporting protests and spreading news about the conflict.
It seems like the potential for an ethnicity to disappear completely after decades of starvation, oppression, and embargo is a more pressing concern than a war between two competent militarized nations, but yeah I agree they're at completely different scales in every aspect except funding from third parties.
I'm legit not trying to troll here, but I vaguely recall a news story last month where Biden said it's not genocide. I forget if he was referring to Ukraine or Gaza, but either way I was kind of dumbfounded like wtf.
It becomes a game of semantics. “Genocide” is not just a loaded term but it has a definition you can argue against, without disagreeing on the scope of the atrocity. Arguing about whether it fits the definition is just a redirect so we’re not talking about the scale of the suffering
"The news is so focused on children trapped in a war zone but they're ignoring the real issue we should be focusing on: children being safely transported out of a war zone."
Russia is taking Ukrainian children, placing them in foster care, and putting them up for adoption to be raised as Russians.This is the definition of genocide.
Genocide is an internationally recognized crime where acts are committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group. These acts fall into five categories:
Killing members of the group
Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group
Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part
Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group
Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group
You are implying this is some diplomatic decision. They are being abducted. They have no choice. Again, these children are being placed in foster homes and put up for adoption to be raised as if they are Russian. This isn’t a refugee rescue operation. It’s cultural genocide. You’re either wildly obtuse, or in defense of genocide.
So you would prefer that they be left where they are, understood.
Personally I think it's good that children not be left in dangerous, traumatic situations, but if you want to classify something as "genocide" when it involves saving the lives of the "victims," then I guess I am defending "genocide." And if you wanted to call if "murder" when I take a drink of water, I guess that means I'll defend "murder" too. If you play around with words enough you can make anything look bad.
I consider people being slaughtered worse than children being raised in a culture different from that of their parents, so sue me.
What a moronic take. Those Russian must be saints taking those poor Ukrainian children after, you know, illegally invading their country, killing their parents, and destroying their cities.
I can think of one country first in line to take them: Ukraine, or Ukrainian refugees sheltering in NATO countries. Wtf kind of fascist take are you spewing? 'Someone has to save these kids from the warzone we created; can't just give them to their extended families, those are the enemy, guess we have no choice but to do genocide '. Get the fuck out of here.
Did they try locating the extended families, or did they just abduct thousands of children to be raised as Russians? That's a rhetorical question, they did the latter.
So if Israel took every Palestinian child they saw, regardless of what family they have, and brought them to Israel for an Israeli family to raise, you'd be fine with that?
“The news is so focused on children trapped in a war zone but they’re ignoring the real issue we should be focusing on: children being safely transported out of a war zone.”
Jesus fucking Christ. Imagine being so pro-genocide you make apologia for kidnapping literal children and ethnic cleansing.
What I'm learning from this is that libs are perfectly fine with children being left to die in an active war zone and are actively opposed to getting them to safety.
I'm absolutely voting for Biden and everyone should, because he is the best viable candidate on literally every issue, including Palestine.
That said, he has openly and loudly taken Israel's side for months. As a result, he's made himself an avatar for all the other US institutions that are openly against any criticism of Israel or support for Palestinians. Even if he has secretly been doing everything he can to stop the killing all this time—which I doubt—he had still fucked up massively when it come to avoiding the blowback from other groups' attempts to crush anyone who speaks out, including agencies his administration controls.
But hey, some rando with literally no national attention is polling at 3% in a couple of safely blue states, so definitely don’t vote for GeNoCiDe JoE! /s
Oh I’ve noticed. The way I see it, there are three options when it comes to the “both sides”/protest vote camp, every single one of them is one of the following:
a bad faith actor cosplaying as a leftist
an accelerationist
a misguided idealist who legitimately believes a non-mainstream candidate could win and/or completely disregards the cold hard fact that FPTP means a third party/abstain vote simply endangers the lesser of two evils candidate while empowering the greater of two evils candidate
No matter what I will never stop throwing shade at that crowd hard and heavy. The first two on that list will never change. I do hope, however, that continued social pressure on that last type of person will make some of them realize that voting is just as much a responsibility as a right, and consider that maybe there’s a good reason their views are so unpopular.
Edited after a good point made by samus12345.
Also I noticed the single downvote on every one of my comments. I know who you are lol. Glad to see I’m still living in your head rent-free.
What about a more nuanced approach, such as both sides are shit. One side is clearly a bit less shit than the other, and so, I'll vote for that side, out of duress. I don't want to, I want to vote someone I actually believe in. I can't say many good things about the party I'm voting for, but I can't say ANYTHING good about their only viable opponent. And so, in an effort to keep the worst case scenario from happening, I'm going to vote for the only viable option.
This is the core of the "both sides" argument to me. We're going to vote dem. But we cannot forget that neither of these parties are the ones we want. It's important to make that known. We are not voting for you because we like you, we're voting for you because we REALLY DON'T LIKE THE OTHER ONE. As long as we keep talking about that, as long as that very critical voice isn't silenced, we can slowly move the needle, until eventually one election we'll actually be able to elect the one we want.
As long as we keep talking about that, as long as that very critical voice isn’t silenced, we can slowly move the needle, until eventually one election we’ll actually be able to elect the one we want.
Which is why centrists are so keen on silence from their critics to the left. And only ever the left.
I think there are also misguided idealists who think it's more important that they feel good about not voting for the "genocide" guy while absolving themselves of any blame should his opponent win. They know a third party candidate can't win, but that's not as important as them being "right".
NO, These are all bad points! With the regularity of these posts, I am starting to suspect you are all bots.
If you want Biden to stop doing something, like supporting a genocide, you don't just say "please stop, but I'll support you no matter what". You tell him, pollsters and everyone who asks that you definitely won't be voting for someone who supports x. When it's time to vote, it might be time to vote for the least evil choice.
With the regularity of these posts, I am starting to suspect you are all bots.
lol.. I went ahead and measured my heart rate and blood oxygen for ya, 67bpm and 98% respectively; I am decidedly flesh and bones. Perhaps the reason these posts are so regular is because a good number of people don’t agree with you? Ever consider that?
You tell him, pollsters and everyone who asks that you definitely won't be voting for someone who supports x. When it's time to vote, it might be time to vote for the least evil choice.
Ok. There’s a lot to unpack here. If you’re considering voting for him anyway, there’s no weight behind your threat to withhold your vote. The problem is that not everyone thinks that way, and encouraging people to essentially burn their vote and endanger Biden’s reelection is that the only other option is Trump. Myself, and many others in this community see this as a flagrantly irresponsible gamble to be making. That’s why we push back against it. I emphatically support protesting, but not protest voting. I emphatically support the idea of a general strike, but still not protest voting. There are plenty of people like me, who want to see the genocide end, but also recognize the very real fact that the consequences of fucking around come general election time may very well be continued genocide and fascism. Just like some people say voting for a candidate supporting a genocide is a line they won’t cross, ushering in the age of trumpist fascism in the US is a line we won’t cross. The thing you seem to fail to consider is that there are more of us than you think.
To be entirely fair, the Republican party does a good job of criticizing themselves.
Consider that a lot of the discourse you're seeing is from people who already believe the democratic party is the lesser of the two evils they're probably going to vote for them regardless.
If you're engaging in a conversation with someone else, whose only tangible difference between the two of you is that one of you believes Dems are a-okay, and one believes that both parties are shit, the only real talking points they have are what the Dems do that aren't great.
Obviously I don't think this is every case, but I know that if I wasn't already primed to have THIS argument, that'd probably be the route it'd take.
If the United States determines at any time that a transfer is no longer in accordance with United States foreign policy objectives, national security goals, or legal obligations, the United States may cease the transfer of or future support for a transferred defense article or service.
Biden could act unilaterally here.
This is elementary school civics in the US.
Yes, and he needs a declaration of war to go to war. 🙄 Just because your education ended with an elementary school reading of the constitution, doesn't mean that's how the country operates in practice.
"Checks and balances" exist in name only. Sure the supreme court or congress could strike down new social programs, but war and spy powers exist independently from the legislative and judicial branches.
Republicans don't pretend to care they wear their bigotry on their shoulder, Democrats are covert in their bigotry and their racism that's why they are often called out for it
I've noticed they will have a little tirade if you ask them what is the logical consistency that they support China despite being "against" Gaza genocide in a way that means they couldn't possibly vote for harm reduction.
voting isn't a harm reduction strategy. a harm reduction strategy would be recognizing those bad things are going to happen and helping people mitigate the fallout.
Yes, by voting for the party that isn't saying we should have the National Guard brutalize protesters, that protesters should be deported, and that Israel would be justified in nuking Gaza.
I’ve been pointing that out all the time. They’re never on any posts critical of Trump. Only anything about Biden. It it’s critical, they’re there to agree- if it’s positive, they’re there to shit all over it.
POTUS has the power to pause military equipment shipments. Biden did exactly this with Israel, as have a few other presidents in other situations. The current congressional Republicans put forward legislation to prevent POTUS from being able to do that. (I'm not sure whether that bill got anywhere or not.) Biden said he would veto such a bill.
Foreign military aid to Israel is supplied as of the terms of the United States - Israel Strategic Partnership Act of 2014, a ten year agreement to supply Israel with certain military aid, which was signed by the US and Israel in 2016, and which took effect in 2018. That was passed by Congress. POTUS does not have the power to unilaterally end that agreement; Congress does.
Nor any suggestions on who could win in his place. Ask them. Every time- make a game out of it.
They NEVER answer it. Not once. I’ve asked them who is currently running that can win November. Not a single one of them has made a peep of a suggestion.
Is that Jill Stein? She barely scraped past 1% of the popular vote in 2016, less than 1/3 of fucking Gary Johnson.
Oh but this time, this time Dems will learn a lesson and turn full leftist 2028. There's no risk either since muh both sides are dictators so it's equally bad either way.
I think there was some guy from California that was recently polling (yes polling, not locked in votes at all) around 3% in a handful of states and some of the both-siders were breaking their arms jerking each other off about it. I don’t remember the dude’s name, for the obvious reason of his candidacy being completely unviable.
It's almost like if the US just turns its back on Israel, we'd lose our leverage to press a negotiated agreement, which would surely not end with Israel digging in their heels even further. (/s)
How is this distinct from the current situation, where Israel has killed at least 35,000 people, is starving around a million more, shows no signs of changing course, and also we are giving them bombs to carry it out?
The time to start applying gentle pressure was about 8 months ago.
What do you think happens when Israel's back is against the wall, they're running out of conventional weapons,and Iran and/or other groups decide to take advantage?
Do not misrepresent what you know full well I am talking about.
Incorrect. We already have a law to not ship weapons to people who are credibly accused of what Israel is credibly accused of. As the Chief Executive Biden could simply follow that law which is well within his power to execute.
“It’s Republicans’ fault that the US keeps sending weapons to Israel” doesn’t make sense when Republicans only control the House and Biden has to sign any bills they want passed.
It is complicated. I don't bother acting like I know what's going on, I just accept that there is guaranteed to be more complicated reasons than what we are often given. This means the problem is extremely simple:
Critical Thinking Skills and willingness to challenge one's own beliefs.
Which is a strong reason why far too many people continue to parrot the same arguments. Biden could at this point cause an act of God to occur, reset the timeline, and if people remembered we'd still be hearing it.
There was another similar ceasefire a couple of months ago that got vetoed by Chairman Xi Jinping, as well. They say any ceasefire proposal which includes complete release of all Israeli hostages is unacceptable, for some reason.
It’s almost like if the US just turns its back on Israel, we’d lose our leverage to press a negotiated agreement, which would surely not end with Israel digging in their heels even further. (/s) It’s almost like geopolitics are - wait for it - complicated.
Which would end up with Israel in a war not just with Palestine but probably other countries in the region. And something I feel people forget: Israel has nuclear weapons but doesn't acknowledge them. Which means we don't have a great idea of their nuclear capability. So if Israel's existence is being threatened, there's a good chance to ruin that part of the world for generations and/or start WW3.
If Israel is fighting for it's survival and it has nukes? Uh yeah? That's why no one's itching to invade Russia even though they are a LOT weaker than expected.
Guess I just don't see the flattening of Gaza and displacement of more than 1 million Palestinian civilians as Israel "fighting for it's survival," nor do I see an immediate cessation of sending US bombs to Israel as leaving them in the dust.
Remember though that Iran has already launched a significant attack on Israel, and it was because of the US and their allies that casualties were heavily curbed. If the US had previously stopped all operations, it could very well have turned into an existential war for Israel.
None of that remotely defends what Israel is doing. And I completely agree we need to stop sending them bombs and additional military support for Gaza. But my point is that there is a potential for a much bigger, possibly nuclear conflict if countries cut all ties.
I get what you're saying, but I'm not certain the Iranian drone attack would have even happened if Israel hadn't been engaged in the raising of Gaza with US backing.
I'm in somewhat agreement with you. On the one hand, there are innocent Israelis who need to be protected (here, I don't necessarily buy the nuclear risk, tbh. Continued US protection is more about prevention of civilian casualties, to me ). On the other, our continued support further emboldens Israel to keep fucking shit up over there, so of course they're going to experience aggression from their neighbors.
Unfortunately this starts getting into a game of who-shot-first, which is a bad state to be in.
If anything, all this is a win-win for the "defense" industry.
Edit: also, for the record, and in the context of this thread, even though I'd argue against continued US military support of Israel, and that Biden hasn't been forceful enough on that issue, and that Democrats in general are too comfortable with the status quo regarding free market capitalism for individuals and socialism for the corporations, and that many of them serve their own interests or those of corporations, you still gotta vote for Biden this election, especially if you're in a swing state. The two parties are not the same, even if they do both suck. The degrees of suckage are not equal.
Continued US protection is more about prevention of civilian casualties, to me
I completely agree, and you have a good point that Israel did bomb the embassy first. Technically Iran does seem to support Hamas, but they still doesn't justify what Israel did.
All in all, Israel is inserting itself into these situations. They're being genocidal and aggressive, and prompting responses. They feel justified in lethal force for self defence, only after they purposely put themselves in harm's way. My ideal US policy at this point would be defending civilians and nothing else -- but even then, like you say, it emboldens Israel to continue being a rogue state.
And I agree with your final sentiment completely. Democrats aren't perfect, but Republicans are so terrible by comparison that they make Democrats look like spotless. I see a vote for Biden and Democrats as a means to eventually address the issues with unfettered capitalism and corporate greed -- the Republican party is fractured and in a bad place. Repeated Democrat victories by high margins will destroy their party, and allow us to finally focus on reining in corporations and nationalizing critical industries. We need Republicans out of the way first before we can fix those. You can't fix a house with totally broken plumbing if it's currently on fire.
Second Edit: Let’s also not forget that Israel is a nuclear power. What do you think happens when Israel’s back is against the wall, they’re running out of conventional weapons, and Iran and/or other groups decide to take advantage?
Great work on the peace deal, fellas. I think we can treat ourselves to another 20 billion of bombs to Israel to celebrate.
Second Edit: Let's also not forget that Israel is a nuclear power. What do you think happens when Israel's back is against the wall, they're running out of conventional weapons, and Iran and/or other groups decide to take advantage?*
Should we allow Russia to just run over Ukraine? They have the largest nuclear arsenal on Earth. Who knows what happens when their backs are against the wall.
Both sides do suck. but only one is trying to get an orange dictator elected. I'm still voting Biden. Democrats aren't perfect but it's the only choice we have.
one side is bad. the other side is a comically evil, fucking nightmare that is going to make sure all future generations for the foreseeable future will suffer things that can be avoided by voting for the "bad" side.
don't be stupid. one side is banning abortion, is going to go after simple contraceptives next, and will certainly ban gay marriage as soon as possible. their obsession with trans people is just a foot in the door.
And to say bOtHsIdEsSaMe you have to simplify to the point of stupidity to try to equate them. There's no detail or nuance. The world is a million shades of grey but they can only see black or white.
Of course, because when you lay it all out, there’s an obvious difference.
Biden rejoined the Paris Climate Agreement, revoked the Keystone Pipeline permit, created a 13 million acre federal petroleum reserve for Alaskan wildlife, greatly increased oil site lease cost, signed $7B in solar subsidies, enacted the Inflation Reduction act to support clean energy, leveraged the NLRB for an FTC ruling that eliminated non-compete agreements, forgave billions in student debt from predatory loans, created the CHIPS Act to improve reliance on domestic technology, reinstated Net Neutrality, repealed Title 42, ended the Muslim Ban, reinstated the law prohibiting Israeli settlement on Palestinian territory, signed the Equality Act for LGBTQ+ rights, restored gay rights to beneficiaries, reenacted trans care anti-discrimination law, signed the Respect for Marriage Act, enabled unspecified gender on US Passports, rejoined WHO, rescheduled marijuana, reducing drug costs with the American Rescue Plan Act…
Trump repealed 112 climate regulations, left the Paris Climate Agreement, disbanded the pandemic response team stalling national pandemic response, left the WHO, repealed trans care anti-discrimination law, repealed gay rights to beneficiaries, enacted Title 42 and the Muslim ban, repealed laws on Israeli settlements on Palestinian territory, repealed Net Neutrality, provided tax cuts to the wealthy that further widened our already exploitative wealth inequality, increased tariffs on goods costing the consumers, repealed the ACA without replacement, seated the conservatives in SCOTUS that repealed Roe v. Wade…
I like when you bring some of that up and they say, for example, that Dobbs is actually Biden's fault because he was in office at the time. That's the best their think tanks have come up with, literally ignoring causality in favor of correlation.
100% true. "Both sides" arguments exist SOLELY to deflect from awful things done by Republicans, or detract from positive things done by Democrats.
Not once have I seen it deployed for any other purpose.
Edit for the pedants: I should probably have not led with "100% true" before the sentence where I clearly stated my position. Although I think the delta between what I wrote after that and what is in OP is a difference without a distinction, if some of you want to feel like you really got me, you go right ahead.
Don't forget, Trump said if minorities vote, Republicans will never win another election. Republicans are doing what they can to stay in power and make it harder for people to vote.
Plus they cherry-pick items, take them out of context, distort them, then bombard social media with it in a way that tries to push as many visceral buttons as they can.
All the while actively ignoring any and all information that might challenge the narrative they are cynically pushing, of course.
It's probably damn near impossible to fully disentangle oneself from this addictive web, we all have fallen prey to weaponized disinformation at some level or other, and different disinformation campaigns target different segments of the population.
"both sides" arguments exist to remind us that neither is our friend. Yes, there are clear differences between the two, but I'm not going to sit here and pretend that one is the "good guys" and ones some unfathomable evil entity.
Neither side is my friend, and I aim to remember that. It doesn't mean I'm going to not vote. It doesn't mean I'm going to encourage others to not vote. It's simply an expression of "I am voting now under duress. None of these options appeals to me, but I must participate in the system lest I be consumed by it."
I watched this standup special (Chad Daniels) and I found myself getting annoyed at the premise of most of his jokes.
The premise is that there is a far left and a far right and both sides are bad and need to move closer to the middle.
A joke he made, for instance, boiled down to far right were racists while the far left is overly compassionate to living things. See, both sides are bad!
First, his far right example was not an exaggeration. That is literally how people on the far right think. The far left example was a funny exaggeration that almost nobody on the left believes.
Second, even with his exaggeration, the 2 extremes are in no way equivalently extreme. The far right needs to come over significantly before it is equally extreme as the far left.
Anyway, I felt like this whole special was an example of what is wrong with the way society talks about the right and left.
Eliminating the First Past the Post voting system would enable people to vote for third-party candidates without the risk of a spoiler effect. This change would foster competition in the electoral process, enhancing the quality of candidates for all voters. Additionally, it would likely increase voter turnout and political engagement.
Electoral reform is possible at the state level, Alaska and Maine have already passed electoral reform so it is possible to get this done.
Republicans have already made moves to protect First Past the Post voting. Florida recently made Ranked Choice voting illegal. Fortunately there are many alternatives to FPTP, so the ban still isn't in the way of passing electoral reform.
So the question remains, why do Blue states still use FPTP voting? Why would you want to use the voting system republicans prefer? There are no republicans stopping these reforms in states that democrats control.
It is clear that democrats understand the flaws of FPTP voting, just talk about voting third party in nearly any social media and you will get a entire flock of Democrats lecturing you on how a vote not for a democrat is a vote for a republican. How can you admit the voting system is flawed and then not make any moves to rectify the situation is beyond me. You don't get to lecture people on the flaws of FPTP voting and then do nothing to fix the issue.
I'm going to vote for the democrat this November but I think most folks who talk about this issue are not disingenuous. Voting in the presidential election is a bare minimum, minimally effective political action. For me and most of the people I know it matters almost not at all because I don't live in a swing state. My local elections matter a hell of a lot more.
There are limits to the effectiveness of electoralism that are worth understanding. I think a lot of folks who talk about the Democrat's failures are advocating for political action beyond voting. Direct action is a far more effective form of political action that people should be putting their energies into.
Union organizing, renter's orgs, housing activism, talking to your neighbors, local politics, and lots more are much more effective ways to assert power in your life. Voting makes me feel helpless. We need to act as well. The primary thing preventing positive political change is the belief that we can't do anything to bring that change about.
Bro vote democrat this time. I'm sure next elections the republican candidate will be better when they inevitably win. I'm sure the democrat candidate will be better too, bro, I swear, just vote. The spiral towards right wing because of the recurring "lesser evil vote" will get better bro I swear.
The intent of someone's speech, or even its outcome, does not make it incorrect. A culture of hiding from reality thinking in doing so it will give us certain outcomes is what this practice will create.
Just remember, people: the US is always one election away from sudden, irrevocable demise. But if you elect the conservative with a D next to their name, then America gets to continue its slow, but inexorable socioeconomic decline as the executive and legislative representatives continue to ignore the policies of the progressives who held their nose to keep them in power. Asking for anything more is both foolish and, even worse, selfish.
As a conservative democrat myself, who will never be forced to compromise any of my ideological positions because the status quo of every election being "too important to lose" is at this point part of the core design of our two party political system, I can say with confidence that if I were ever faced with the choice of voting between an outright fascist and a socialist candidate, that I would definitely vote the only way that made sense to preserve the corporate oligarchy on which the fragile veneer of American democracy rests. Which is to say that I would vote for the fascist, obviously.
If you want to actually vote for progressive candidates, then you are free to move to Mexico and start farming avocados for the cartels.
Hey France has a lesson for you: 2 years ago the liberals called the left to vote for them in order to prevent the far right from getting elected.
For 2 years the liberals governed with the leaning to far right - right. The far right applauded many of their policies.
This Sunday the far right went first in the European election, because the left was a bunch of clowns and everyone hates the liberal government.
1h after the results, the Liberal president Macron disbanded the parliament. Now there are 3 weeks to elect a new parliament. He also opted for a vote that favors the biggest, so the far right is favoured, and there's no time for a campaign and barely enough time for the left to unite. The president is also still saying on TV that the left is just as bad and as extreme as the far right.
We didn't see it coming, but the liberal who pretended he would fight the far right is the first accelerationist in France. It is chaos right now, and the far right has never been so close from being in power in France since 1944. The 5th Republic is almost a presidential regime btw, so if the far right has the power, it'll be very dirty.
Trust the liberals they said, it's better than the far right...
Oh, they see the connection. They just want Republicans in office. They don't give a fuck about the suffering of minorities, they just want the worst possible option in power so they can feel smug about "not supporting the system".
When your only viable defense to moral superiority is a strawman rather than accepting criticism of your side and labeling it a "both side are same" rhetoric to shift blame.
Actually they are designed to make people vote third party. Critical voter mass moving to third party is the only option to end the duopoly political system that literally everybody agrees is bad and undemocratic.
Gas lighting people into believing there is only 2 choices when there isnt is how this corrupt system maintains its power.
No. They have plenty of voters. I'm so tired of this liberal bashing of people with fucking empathy and a tired deposition towards the apathetic unhelpful political parties in charge, as your way to get more votes.
I get that we have a binary decision with our presidency election but no, this is not an effective method other than to piss off people you are essentially stating straight up you think of as lesser.
Yeah well neither is your friend. Both consistently take away your rights and give you barley anything. You can say both are bad but one is worse, sure.
That's an hyper-simplist take, self-serving if the author is a Democrat tribalist.
A Biden victory will have two effects:
It solves the Trump problem for the next 4 years.
It makes the DNC conclude that even outright support by their sitting President and Candidate with weapons and ammunition for a Fascist regime committing Genocide along ethnic lines is not an impediment for lefties to vote for a DNC nominated Democrat Presidential Candidate as long as the other side's candidate is worse. This means that in the next election the next Democrat candidate is unlikelly to be better and will possibly be worse. It also doesn't solve the problem of a somebody-like-Trump or, worse, an intelligent version of Trump, being a candidate with a chance of winning in subsequent elections.
So what's at stake is a Trump victory now (what Trump might or not do once in power is mainly speculation, and the more extreme theories being pitched by people who stand to gain if their candidate wins instead of Trump, have to be taken with a pinch because they'se self-serving political propaganda) versus what will happen in subsequent elections.
(The whole "what might Trump do" uncertainty is what actually makes the whole thing a complex and trully fucked up choice: if one knew with absolute certainty that Trump would end even the flawed thing that passes for Democracy in America, the choice would be an obvious "vote Biden" even at the risk of there only be even worse choices in subsequent elections, because if Trump won now there would be no subsequent elections).
Frankly I don't see any scenario were post-Trump the Republicans become less Fascist and hence the DNC becoming less evil because their upper evilness limit which is "the other guy" gets pushed down, and suspect that who the Republicans will put forward next is a more intelligent version of Trump.
That being so, the only way to push the DNC to in the future put forward less evil candidates (or to not intervene in the Primaries to stop such candidates, like they did to stop Sanders) is to make them fear that they will lose the leftwing vote and hence never again win Presidential elections, and that means Biden has to lose and Trump has to win.
It's a fucking tough choice. (Sorry for the expeletive, but it's what better reflects the trully, utterly fucked up nature of the whole "choice")
I'm happy I'm not an American and am not forced into such Hobson's Choice and can thus just intellectually analyse the whole thing without an associated rollercoaster of emotions.
Ah got it so we need to be like Trump's base and ignore any problems Biden has because that encourages people not to vote. /s
You can call out problems with Biden and acknowledge how that is gonna make left leaning people not want to vote for him and average people not care enough to go out and vote at all without supporting not voting for him.
Every time you smear anyone who is completely opposed to an ethnostate committing genocide as antisemitic you are equating being Jewish to supporting the actions of the state of the Israel which is both antisemitic in itself and actively harmful to Jewish people globally.
If you’re making a both sides bad post, be sure to suggest that people vote for a third party, got it!
Btw, have you heard about the party for socialism and liberation? They’re running Claudia de la Cruz for president on a platform of Palestinian liberation and stopping weapons shipments to Israel!
Seriously this sounds like some fucking 2 party propaganda bullshit. we out number them by millions, it really shouldn't be that hard get what we want. It makes me laugh when people think they have a choice in this system. Your voting for 2 evils doesnt matter if one is lesser they are still evil and a vote for either of them is saying you are OK with evil.
Only reason no vote or another candidate is not viable is because of people like you falling for their tricks.
Well, that...and the electoral college. When states that have fewer people living in them than one or two major blue cities...it really helps virtually nullify the votes of large swathes of the population.
??? "Keeping people from voting is literally the only way Republicans can stay in office" is just such an objectively false statement I don't know where to start.
Guys, when is the revolution? I wanna burn down every government building and start from scratch. I don't think Americans will be happy whether Biden or Trump is voted in, so we might as well fight both sides and uprise a new one
The "vote democrat to save democracy, you must vote one party, .. for democracy" seems like Orwellian doublespeak at this point, because if you look at the numbers, democracy is about to be heavily eroded over time by the democrats. I'm not even registered to vote, but it's obvious to see the tactics being pushed and enacted.
Just vote third party, if both options are bad, literally the only thing keeping this two(more like one) party system alive and keeping real progress from happening.
Boy this rhetoric sounds familiar. “Democracy is under attack by Republicans”. Oh right, it’s the exact same goddamn thing Democrats have been saying for the last 15 years. And yet even though they’ve been in power a significant part of that time, somehow we keep inching towards fascism.
At some point you realize that the only real question is do we want fascism next week, or do we want fascism next month? And while I agree that voting for Drumpf is a much worse choice for the country, maybe if Democrats actually did stuff to make every day citizens lives better then maybe it really wouldn’t be much of an argument.
even though they’ve been in power a significant part of that time
Since 1981 Democrats have had control of the Presidency and Congress a whopping 4 years. One 2 year period under Clinton and one under Obama. That's without factoring in the ability to fillibuster in the Senate. In over 40 years they've only had control 10% of the time.
maybe if Democrats actually did stuff to *make every day citizens lives better
That period of filibuster-proof control during Obama's term is why we have the ACA. It was ~70 days and they passed the largest healthcare overhaul in generations.
That period of filibuster-proof control during Obama’s term is why we have the ACA. It was ~70 days and they passed the largest healthcare overhaul in generations.
Plus the ACA could have been better if it didn't need to get watered down for the one or two Dems/Independents that helped get it past that stupid filibuster roadblock.
Remember, Democrats cannot achieve anything unless they have the Presidency and a veto-proof majority in both houses of Congress, and even then only if they compromise to the right. The Republicans mysteriously only need the presidency or the slimmest of majorities in either house of Congress to push their agenda with no need to compromise.
maybe if Democrats actually did stuff to make every day citizens lives better
$150 billion student loan forgiveness, first big action in climate change ever in US history, CHIPS act, infrastructure act, huge increase in corporate taxes to fund all that stuff, activists in charge of NLRB which gave fuel to all these union gains we've seen in recent years, recovery from covid like it never happened which basically no other first world country was able to do, gain in wages for low-income workers even adjusted for fairly massive inflation, medical debt off credit reports, net neutrality, plus also obviously not the end of democracy in the US is a nice bonus
(Not to say it isn't a problem the Democrats' general level of money-in-politics corruption, or their willingness to continue dogshit US policies like support for Israel. Both of those are massive problems. But saying that they don't do anything to make everyday citizens' lives better is, at least for the last few years, absolutely objectively false.)
The main problem isn't anything about what the Democrats actually do. It's that the priorities of the people who own the news, and the bots that run social media influence campaigns, are not at all aligned with those every day citizens, and so nobody even knows that any of that big list even happened.
If you need more to fall the fuck in line than "the other side are fascists running on a platform of doing fascism", you're a fascist.
Yes even if you're whatever minority, gender, sexuality, other, being a moron does not exclude you from still being a fascist, it just makes you a very stupid fascist.
If you don’t want to vote for Biden or trump, don’t. I’m voting party for socialism and liberation this November and you can too.
They’re running Claudia de la cruz for president on a platform of Palestinian statehood and cessation of aid to Israel.
It’s better to vote third party than not to vote because even if the third party doesn’t win, they get material support from your vote in the form of funding, ballot and event presence, media appearances and public awareness.
You do realize that you can vote third party and they maybe better aligned with your values?
The only people taking people’s power away are those telling us that we have to choose between the candidates we don’t like and ignore the ones that we do agree with.
I as an Arab American will not vote for someone enabling the death and destruction of my people. Call us Russian trolls all you want.
Nah, some of us just aren't delusional and see how both sides are ineffective, ignore their constituents, corrupt(look at the stock trading of any politician for an example), and a whole host of other problems. Some of us want a party we can actually support, not just "the lesser of two evils". Itd be nice to have a candidate that you actually want to vote for on their own merits.
But nah, just paint us as whiny conservatives trying to trick you, not your fellow Democrats who are fed up with the shit show we've been fed our entire lives. This is one of the most pathetic Democrat Defenses: "if you don't agree with us, you're really a smelly conservative!". Nah, I just don't agree that you have the ability or desire to actually make things better. And I'm not gonna keep a broken system on life support just for your comfort. I WANT the system to collapse because it's already a mockery of what it should be. If it collapses, we either go full authoritarian and stop pretending we're not(so at least we're finally honest), or maybe, just maybe, a different voice can rise up for once.
Either way, better than voting for Giant Douche vs Turd Sandwich and continuing the same broken system for another 100 years.
For all the people down voting me, does the following sound familiar? "Election happens. Told Vote D or a R wins and everything will be worse! Elect a D. They can't get anything done because the Rs prevent them. Rs proceed to win next election and completely change major laws on a whim. Ds continue to complain that they can't stop the Rs". So why would I vote for a party that openly admits they can't get shit done? The entire Democrat playbook is "The Republicans wouldn't let us". Fuck that bullshit. If you can't see it for the scam it is, you deserve this bullshit. It's a party of eunichs. It needs to die and be replaced with an actually progressive party, not another shade of R.
"Specifically designed" means exactly what you're saying it means. Nobody said Russians; they said artificial. This article gives a quick overview of what's been academically analyzed about it, which in my un-expert opinions is a few years' behind in terms of how it actually works in the modern day:
Already, there is strong evidence social media is being manipulated by these inflated bots to sway public opinion with disinformation – and it’s been happening for years.
In 2018, a study analysed 14 million tweets over a ten-month period in 2016 and 2017. It found bots on social media were significantly involved in disseminating articles from unreliable sources. Accounts with high numbers of followers were legitimising misinformation and disinformation, leading real users to believe, engage and reshare bot-posted content.
I can only speak for my observations on Reddit and Lemmy, but it is absolutely undeniable to me that there are fake users on both platforms who are pushing specific narratives, and I 100% believe that "don't vote it doesn't do anything" is one of them.
I'm not aware of anyone who is in favor of voting who isn't also in favor of other means of social change. The conflation of the two (from the "don't vote" side) is exactly one of those doesn't-really-make-any-sense-at-all-but-does-produce-the-desired-result-if-carelessly-accepted nuggets of influential logic that I suspect is "specifically designed"
Or they're saying vote for the "WiFi causes leaky brain" guy which is the same thing as not voting. Although they're saying that less once he started getting made fun of for having brain worms.
No... but I understand how I might have given that impression. I think the slrpnk community is kind of an outlier in that it actually does have some anti-electoralism that's a legit outgrowth of honest anarchism, that I honestly don't really have a problem with. I don't think that community is bots, Russian or otherwise, no. (Edit: Well... not all bots. I do think there are a couple propaganda accounts on slrpnk but that almost all of the discourse is organic, and the nature of the landscape means that the propaganda can afford to be a lot less obvious.)
For the most part, I actually think the propaganda accounts on Lemmy are more subtle than coming out and saying "don't vote." They say things like, both parties are the same, or "Genocide Joe," or they could never support a genocide, or it feels so unfair that we have to do this every four years and nothing ever changes, things like that. I just grabbed one random example to answer your question about, are they saying "don't vote".
Do you want me to find an example of something I think is explicit propaganda that is also explicitly saying "don't vote"? I can do that too; that one maybe poorly chosen example is just the first thing that popped into my mind.
No, I don't want you to do that. As an anarchist, I felt misrepresented, that's all. But since you say that you don't have a problem with anarchism, we're cool.
Yeah, liberals... keep pretending that your superficial pearl-clutching when it comes to US-sponsored genocide makes you all that different than your (so-called) "conservative" cousins.
And yet here you are spouting nonsense. Tell me oh wise one, which of the 4 choices would you make come November? 1) vote for Biden, 2) vote for Trump, 3) vote 3rd party, or 4) don’t vote?
I can do what I can but a lot is out of my control. I can't change laws or help people far away. Except of course by voting and donating, but I only have so much money. I'd rather prevent the possible harm to people as much as possible, rather than have to try to stop things after they've gone bad. And in terms of prevention, I don't have a plan b.
Join a mutual aid and community defense group. Help your community. Don't depend on lawmakers and judges. They've proven time and time again they're not on yopr side.
You can vote for Biden to your heart's content in November, but do you have to defend unwavering support of genocide in June? Biden voters, more than anyone else, should be at his throat for it, but I guess it's not the right time to not want massacres.
Maybe give me a timetable of when it's convenient for you to not want my family murdered
Can you answer me how the situtation would be bettered by the Republican who literally moved the embassy to Jerusalem to recognize that as the Israeli capital?
This wouldn't be the horse race it is if Biden had better policy. You should be pissed that your candidate is running such a shit campaign and disparaging college kids fighting for their beliefs.
You might not want it, but the fact is that we have a two party system in the US, and reducing support for one side always increases relative support for the other.
So no one is allowed to criticize anything the democrats do because this is a zero sum game and anything you do just makes the republicans stronger. What a fantastic excuse.
To your point, criticizing Biden / the government now, in June is totally fine. And necessary. What's happening in the world, with a USA stamp on it is unacceptable.
Unfortunately republican actors are also doing that now and following up by saying "so that's why I'm not voting for Biden"
Biden supports genocide. A vote for Biden, regardless if it's the logical choice, is a vote for genocide wether you made peace with that or not. That's what electoralism gets you.
Want to offset that? Then make him stop supporting genocide. Here's a hint: He wants your votes
If you want to play that game, a vote for Biden is a vote for genocide-lite and any other action that leads to better trump chances is a vote (implicit or explicit vote) for genocide-max.
Is "criticizing gleeful support of genocide" an action that will cause things to deteriorate? Is "asking elected officials to not be pieces of shit if they want to be elected fulfilling the basic concept of democracy" an action that will cause things to deteriorate?
If your idea of improving things is to directly support the fashiest fascist you can find, then yes, you are indistinguishable from a fascist, and I will not attempt to draw a distinction without a difference.
If you don't see how people are unable to vote for a Democratic party that is shamelessly supporting genocide you have a problem.
Regardless of whether or not you are ok with actively voting for a staunch genocide supporter, you should be able to intellectually understand why people can't approve the Democratic party's unconditional genocide support.
My neck is one of the first on the chopping block. Yes.
It's up to neoliberals to change their politics, if they don't our democracy is fucked anyway. This is the one last chance to try and shock them into understanding how they're failing.
Rewarding Biden with a second term will reinforce that Democratic support for genocide is ok as long as they employ a pied piper strategy and help prop up extreme right-wing.
And what, exactly, is the other option? Third parties can't win in FPTP. The DNC isn't going to just suddenly pick Bernie, who isn't even running. So you SAY you want change but your solution is to not vote for the lesser evil. This directly helps a fascist get into power.
The focus should be on changing the Democratic party politics. Nothing else matters because Democrats represent the only potential chance of combatting fascism, but they are not fit to do so with their current leadership and the strategies they're deploying to force their corporate fucks into office. Encouraging them to continue along the path they're on will only lead to fascism.
Their strategies need to change. They don't respond to public sentiment or outcry, they don't respond to reason or or sympathy or compromise, they only respond to real material threats to their power.
I'm not waiting a generation for Democrats to get their shit together. That's a non-starter. They need to change yesterday, if they don't change and just try to strong arm people into voting for evil candidates then the democracy is full dead.
The focus should be on changing the Democratic party politics
Ok but how does getting Trump elected do that? He says he's going to be a dictator Day 1. There aren't going to BE any more elections after that. All your high and mighty speech is just bullshit if you don't vote strategically to prevent a literal fascist.
This is why people who don't vote Biden in November are just fascists. If your actions knowingly help a fascist, you are one.
So now you're willfully ignoring Project 2025, and Trump stating he is going to be dictator day 1. Not only that, but with a compromised judicial and legislative branch, you really are gonna sit there and say:
I'm calling bullshit on this. The president is not king and he cannot make himself king.
You're not sincere, and if you are, I now can see why you're doubling down on stupidity.
I’m at peace with the possibility that there may be no democratic way out of this in the end. I’m willing to give the Democrats one last window to understand what they need to do to win elections, but if they can’t accept that lesson and they let the fascists walk all over them, so be it.
"If the entire democratic party doesn't do what I want, fascists win"
Sounds like what a fascist would say. Go fight your violent revolution in your mind, which is the only place you'll be surviving. Absolutely fucking unhinged.
What nonsense. By this time in the election cycle it is too late to change who the 2 candidates are. You sound so incredibly naive with your comment essentially saying “I’m going to just let it all burn down since I can’t vote for the perfect candidate”. Stop your misinformation.
Want a better candidate? Start pushing earlier and in more local elections. Let those candidates build their political careers and move the country left.
So you know you can do an easy action to make some people's lives better, to delay fascism, and save minorities from a plan to essentially wipe them out, but you won't because of principles? Because of some notion that the Democratic party will learn from losing?
You know that they lost in 2020 to a fascist. This already happened and the result was 4 years of hell for every minority group in the country. Why do you think this would be any better, or accomplish anything?
No, I won't because the party will not change direction without electoral consequences.
A vote for pro-genocide Democrats at this point is still a vote for inevitable fascism and increasingly worse civil strife.
A delay is only useful if the people you're giving power to will use it to fight. Biden and corporate democrats have proven beyond any dispute that they will not fight. That's how we got here, by relying on corporate democrats to stem the tide.
Go ahead and vote for the party that writes "finish them off" on bombs destined for Gaza, then? Or abstain, and get them elected, essentially the same?
And no, it's not the same. If it was, then a maga supporter could claim that my uncommitted vote is actually a vote for Biden because I didn't vote for Trump. Time to give up on this talking point, it's nonsensical.
It's not because the land-focused voting system we have favors republicans, not to mention gerrymandering.
Also I swear you've forgotten 2020. The same fucking thing happened, people didn't want to vote for a moderate democrat, and so a racist, abusive fascist got elected instead.
The math is literally there, not voting for the closer candidate to you is identical to voting for the other guy.
We have been using small words and slow speaking to explain FPTP to you disingenuous mother fuckers since Nader, just fucking stop acting like you're doing anything except sea lioning because asking these questions in circles forever has better optics than admitting you care more about feeling valid about whatever white kid bullshit you're on than you do about saving trans lives.
Tell me, when was the last time a progressive was in the white house? When have we had a progressive house leader? When was the last progressive majority?
Tell me again where the Democratic opposition to the Patriot Act was? How about FISA surveillance? Hmm, Iraq War? No. Citizens United! Surely you neolibs stood in the way of that, right?
Nope, you guys have been at the helm for decades, what's your record actually show? Where are women's bodily rights again? How about healthcare reform? At least your guys got to force people to pay for private insurance, right? We're all so grateful to you for that.
So how's that opposition to fascism actually going? We elected Biden like you demanded and got a genocide for it. But, maybe you're right, maybe I'm just not intellectual enough to see how if move the party further and further to the right, to the point where you're now doing apologetics for a genocide, we'll eventually turn things around.
From their perspective not voting for Trump is a vote for Biden, which is why it would be great if they acknowlwedged how awful Trump is and kept their MAGA asses at home.
That is because not voting is like voting for your personal worst choice.
So Dems can literally do anything and you'll support them. They support genocide and you accept that.
Let me guess, if we just vote the technically lesser evil they'll change this time, right? If we just elect one more corporate dem with lobby money falling out of their ass that'll get the party to change direction, right?
Just keep voting Republican-lite and one of these days the slide towards fascism will reverse, magically. It's been working really well these last forty years, right? People have done exactly what you're suggesting and things have just been getting better and better huh.
Delusional. And all just to avoid having to face having your comfortable bubble of denial popped. All those Americans getting churned up and crushed by the consequences of your political support for do-nothing policy just need to understand that you're doing ok in the status quo, so they need to understand it's their obligation to protect you. They just gotta take a few more for the team
There are only two choices in this election. Democrat or republican. Due to the way the US election system works, not voting against the fascists who literally have a playbook on how to destroy the US democracy is the same as voting for the fascists who literally have a playbook on how to destroy the US democracy.
The Israelis committing genocide is not even close to the biggest threat facing our country at the moment.
Plus, Trump literally wants to nuke Gaza, while Biden is trying to get Israeli to agree to a cease fire. Not to mention that congress is responsible for the sales of arms.
No ones ignoring the election. You vote and send a clear message that they can't ignore; Uncommitted. i.e. "I voted against you because of genocide. Period." There will be no room for blithering about how maybe dems didn't appeal to imaginary disillusioned Republicans enough or that people want bipartisan genocide or how we can afford to ignore the youth vote blah blah. The reason they lost the vote will be crystal fucking clear.
They can then choose to accept that reality and adjust, or they can deny it and continue doing the same losing strategy. If they continue using the same losing strategy at that point then that is a sure sign that the DNC will never be capable of learning or adapting and that they will never be capable of confronting fascism. And at that point the American people need to start considering harder realities.
The goal is to do harm reduction now, and start building a better candidate for next time.
This has never worked. We are where we are right now because this kind of thinking has been allowed to prevail in the Democratic party. Things have not improved, we have lost basic rights, not gained more. We have grown closer to fascism inder the corporate Democrat leadership, not further.
When they spit in your fucking face next election cycle and tell you to vote for their chosen corporate conservative Dem like a good dog you'll do it, repeating the same brainless line you're trying to spin right now.
Know how I know? Because it's been the same bullshit neoliberals have been doing for forty fucking years. Same trajectory of failure and short-term, fear-based voting.
Exactly. It's almost like people don't understand how party politics work. It's always about holding your nose and voting for the least bad option. Very rarely is your ideal candidate even on a ballot. If everyone voted only for their ideal candidate, we'd have thousands on the ballot. Even in ranked choice you vote in order of preference but these clowns wouldn't even put a rank to someone like Biden. They'd rather Trump supporters win.
Genocide is not excusable or justifiable. Ever. It's not something that can be just handwaved away as "regretable".
If the Dems want to win elections they need to A) stop supporting genocide and B) Stop trying to force the pied piper strategy. It's a political failure.
I love the self outing of "pied piper", bro you're just admitting now that you're treating everyone who's actually gonna live the difference you let happen like a bunch of hysterical exaggerating crybabies because how dare people be mad at you for thinking this time surely the establishment will learn it's lesson!
Yeah, we're being crybabies because the Democratic nominee is supporting a genocide. If only we were all wise and worldly like you where we could shrugg it off, right? I mean, what's the big deal about genocide, right? Everyone's so stuck on this "human rights" thing, geez. Grow up everyone, you've gotta have a little genocide sometimes to protect democracy.
A better question; how does Biden represent any serious opposition to fascism when he's literally neck and neck with a convicted felon and can't even bring himself to give up on genocide in order to "save democracy"?
Providing wrapons that you say can't be used forbthe genocide even though we know they are being used for that?
Providing funding that could be used on weapons?
Providing intel intended to reduce civilian casualties?
Maintaining diplomatic relations with the country?
Just curious as 'supporting' can be stretched pretty far, and for me the floor would be providing weapons. Anything beyond that is just normal international relations bullshit.
If both parties are fully genocidal then neither of them represent resistance to it and voting for either is approval.
Reform is the only option. GOP has no chance of reform, Democrats have an infinitesimally narrow window left through which to achieve reform before fascism is fully rooted. They will not reform if rewarded with power.
Those are your democratic options. Do what you think will be least ineffective, and then prepare for the overwhelming statistical liklihood that Democrats will fumble any opportunity you give them out of greed and deluded incompetence.
Well, the good news is that only describes one of the parties that includes people who have said out loud that they support genocide and/or are writing messages supportive of killing Palestinians on the bombs used for genocide.
Yes, and this isn't just about November or a single term.
That's why you keep spinning round and round in the same cycle of DNC abuse, they set themselves up so it's either them or the End of All Things and you swallow that dichotomy whole every time.
I love how the propagandists just keep beating the same drum after the Biden administration has constructed a ceasefire deal which has received unanimous UN Security Council support, and did appear to be moving forward until about 14 hours ago. (Edit: It might still, that's not over yet.)
It's almost like if the US just turns its back on Israel, we'd lose our leverage to press a negotiated agreement, which would surely not end with Israel digging in their heels even further. (/s) It's almost like geopolitics are - wait for it - complicated.
Second Edit: Let's also not forget that Israel is a nuclear power. What do you think happens when Israel's back is against the wall, they're running out of conventional weapons, and Iran and/or other groups decide to take advantage?
It was unanimous because Russia abstained. Putin loves the refocus on Israel while he continues his genocidal war crimes in Ukraine under the US media radar.
For those who haven’t been keeping up, Russia has abducted 700,000 Ukrainian children to be raised as Russians in foster homes since the war began. It’s genocide on a scale 20 times larger than Palestine, and isn’t making national headlines in the US due to the focus on Israel.
The US formally declared this as genocide in the House of Representatives with a 390-9 vote in April by invoking the UN Genocide Convention, and the ICC has issued arrest warrants. Did you see any headlines about that?
Russia is also the largest investor in the sanctioned Iran economy that is directly funding Hamas, Hezbollah, and the Houthis.
I was sceptical of this claim so I did some research - 700,000 is almost certainly too high, but other than that it's disturbingly true:
The 700,000 number comes from a Russian parliamentarian in 2023, and refers to orphaned and abandoned children Russia has 'protected' from conflict zones in Ukraine. A later Russian report walked this back a bit, and claimed that most of this number were children accompanied by family voluntarily escaping the fighting by feeling into Russia.
Obviously we should be sceptical of what Russia says about this, but this is not the same number as the number of children abducted - not even Ukraine alleges it to be this high.
The number of children abducted and forcibly deported was officially reported by Kyev to be 19,000 to 20,000 at the time of the above claim based on the data (nearly 30,000 now). The real number is almost certainly higher - many Ukranian officials believe the actual amount is higher, with one saying it may be into the 'hundreds of thousands'. A US report in 2022 estimates that Russia has "interrogated, detained, and forcibly deported... 260,000 children, from their homes to Russia"
Even if we take only the low amount that can be fairly positively stated as abductions, that's nearly 30,000 children. Various reports have shown some of these children being given new Russian identities and false birth certificates, and being put up for adoption in Russia. Some have testified to being indoctrinated and shown pro-Kremlin propaganda.
This broadly constitutes Cultural Genocide - whether it technically is or not is for academics to argue over, because the legal definition of genocide is complicated and so much is unkown.
Whether or not you want to call it a Genocide, it is undeniably a War Crime. The ICC has issued arrest warrents for Putin and Russian Children's Rights Commissioner Maria Lvova-Belova over this.
Regardless of the number, it was deemed genocide in a 390-9 vote in the House in April, by invoking the UN Genocide Convention.
https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/us-house-resolution-russian-abduction-of-ukrainian-children-is-genocide/
When the US congress deems there to be a genocide, the truth is always the opposite of their conclusion. If the Holocaust was going on today, congress would rule unanimously there to be no genocide.
Lol at basically citing the CIA as your source.
Even a stopped clock is sometimes right. GP checked the facts. If you have something constructive to add then let’s hear it!
And yet not a peep from these “Genocide Joe” people. They’re either Russian disinformation agents, or useful idiots.
I get what you’re saying, but I’m pretty damn sure you’re confusing Americans’ inability to focus on more than one issue at a time with the seemingly catch-all “bots!” thing.
Don’t attribute to malice what can easily be attributed to stupidity/ignorance/laziness.
Idk why you're saying "not a peep" when it's pretty much all we ever talk about in these parts.
No, what everyone here seems to talk about is how the President is supporting genocide, while failing to mention that Biden alone can’t do anything to fund Israel.
Where are you seeing any criticism towards the GOP? All I’m seeing are the same “Genocide Joe” and “Both Sides” people being the most vocal.
Yeah, given it's a center stance and not remotely a partisan issue in this election it's probably better not to talk about it outside of the context of supporting protests and spreading news about the conflict.
It seems like the potential for an ethnicity to disappear completely after decades of starvation, oppression, and embargo is a more pressing concern than a war between two competent militarized nations, but yeah I agree they're at completely different scales in every aspect except funding from third parties.
I'm legit not trying to troll here, but I vaguely recall a news story last month where Biden said it's not genocide. I forget if he was referring to Ukraine or Gaza, but either way I was kind of dumbfounded like wtf.
It becomes a game of semantics. “Genocide” is not just a loaded term but it has a definition you can argue against, without disagreeing on the scope of the atrocity. Arguing about whether it fits the definition is just a redirect so we’re not talking about the scale of the suffering
He was referring to Gaza. Its amazing the number of lies $12m buys
And you can’t even bring this up as an argument against the “gEnOciDe jOe” kids because it gets removed for “whataboutism” in almost every thread.
They have their agenda pretty locked down
"The news is so focused on children trapped in a war zone but they're ignoring the real issue we should be focusing on: children being safely transported out of a war zone."
Russia is taking Ukrainian children, placing them in foster care, and putting them up for adoption to be raised as Russians. This is the definition of genocide.
Genocide is an internationally recognized crime where acts are committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group. These acts fall into five categories:
You are implying this is some diplomatic decision. They are being abducted. They have no choice. Again, these children are being placed in foster homes and put up for adoption to be raised as if they are Russian. This isn’t a refugee rescue operation. It’s cultural genocide. You’re either wildly obtuse, or in defense of genocide.
https://www.reuters.com/world/us-aware-credible-reports-russia-is-listing-ukrainian-children-adoption-white-2024-06-12/
So you would prefer that they be left where they are, understood.
Personally I think it's good that children not be left in dangerous, traumatic situations, but if you want to classify something as "genocide" when it involves saving the lives of the "victims," then I guess I am defending "genocide." And if you wanted to call if "murder" when I take a drink of water, I guess that means I'll defend "murder" too. If you play around with words enough you can make anything look bad.
I consider people being slaughtered worse than children being raised in a culture different from that of their parents, so sue me.
You’re using a false-dilemma argument while arguing semantics over the lives of children. How many Rubles do you get per comment?
What I’d prefer is what the EU is doing by providing temporary amnesty for refugees, while they await return to their conflict-free home country.
https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/infographics/ukraine-refugees-eu/
We would prefer they go with their parents or at least family.
Which Russia is preventing by kidnapping them.
What a moronic take. Those Russian must be saints taking those poor Ukrainian children after, you know, illegally invading their country, killing their parents, and destroying their cities.
I never called them saints, I only said that transporting war orphans into safety is not genocide.
What a tankie clown. To “safety”.
I can think of one country first in line to take them: Ukraine, or Ukrainian refugees sheltering in NATO countries. Wtf kind of fascist take are you spewing? 'Someone has to save these kids from the warzone we created; can't just give them to their extended families, those are the enemy, guess we have no choice but to do genocide '. Get the fuck out of here.
We're talking about war orphans, children whose families cannot be located.
Did they try locating the extended families, or did they just abduct thousands of children to be raised as Russians? That's a rhetorical question, they did the latter.
So if Israel took every Palestinian child they saw, regardless of what family they have, and brought them to Israel for an Israeli family to raise, you'd be fine with that?
I mean, it would be an improvement...
...I can't argue there. Genocide all the same, but at least without killing kids.
Russia is not doing this. We're talking about war orphans.
Fine then, if Israel took war orphans like Russia? You'd be totally fine with that?
Jesus fucking Christ. Imagine being so pro-genocide you make apologia for kidnapping literal children and ethnic cleansing.
What I'm learning from this is that libs are perfectly fine with children being left to die in an active war zone and are actively opposed to getting them to safety.
I'm absolutely voting for Biden and everyone should, because he is the best viable candidate on literally every issue, including Palestine.
That said, he has openly and loudly taken Israel's side for months. As a result, he's made himself an avatar for all the other US institutions that are openly against any criticism of Israel or support for Palestinians. Even if he has secretly been doing everything he can to stop the killing all this time—which I doubt—he had still fucked up massively when it come to avoiding the blowback from other groups' attempts to crush anyone who speaks out, including agencies his administration controls.
But hey, some rando with literally no national attention is polling at 3% in a couple of safely blue states, so definitely don’t vote for GeNoCiDe JoE! /s
Notice how they only ever criticize Biden, and never the Republican party, which fully supports Israeli bullshit?
Oh I’ve noticed. The way I see it, there are three options when it comes to the “both sides”/protest vote camp, every single one of them is one of the following:
No matter what I will never stop throwing shade at that crowd hard and heavy. The first two on that list will never change. I do hope, however, that continued social pressure on that last type of person will make some of them realize that voting is just as much a responsibility as a right, and consider that maybe there’s a good reason their views are so unpopular.
Edited after a good point made by samus12345.
Also I noticed the single downvote on every one of my comments. I know who you are lol. Glad to see I’m still living in your head rent-free.
What about a more nuanced approach, such as both sides are shit. One side is clearly a bit less shit than the other, and so, I'll vote for that side, out of duress. I don't want to, I want to vote someone I actually believe in. I can't say many good things about the party I'm voting for, but I can't say ANYTHING good about their only viable opponent. And so, in an effort to keep the worst case scenario from happening, I'm going to vote for the only viable option.
This is the core of the "both sides" argument to me. We're going to vote dem. But we cannot forget that neither of these parties are the ones we want. It's important to make that known. We are not voting for you because we like you, we're voting for you because we REALLY DON'T LIKE THE OTHER ONE. As long as we keep talking about that, as long as that very critical voice isn't silenced, we can slowly move the needle, until eventually one election we'll actually be able to elect the one we want.
Which is why centrists are so keen on silence from their critics to the left. And only ever the left.
The neolib centrists need the right to guarantee their power. The left is the only group threatening that.
I think there are also misguided idealists who think it's more important that they feel good about not voting for the "genocide" guy while absolving themselves of any blame should his opponent win. They know a third party candidate can't win, but that's not as important as them being "right".
I believe the vast majority of these are privileged people whose family wealth will shield them from legislation they don't want to be subject to.
Or just white cis straight males, who will be protected from much of it as well.
you don't actually have any evidence for that, though, do you?
Only their words showing them to be clearly insulated from and cavalier about the effects of Republican legislature, true.
Yeah that’s a good point.
NO, These are all bad points! With the regularity of these posts, I am starting to suspect you are all bots.
If you want Biden to stop doing something, like supporting a genocide, you don't just say "please stop, but I'll support you no matter what". You tell him, pollsters and everyone who asks that you definitely won't be voting for someone who supports x. When it's time to vote, it might be time to vote for the least evil choice.
lol.. I went ahead and measured my heart rate and blood oxygen for ya, 67bpm and 98% respectively; I am decidedly flesh and bones. Perhaps the reason these posts are so regular is because a good number of people don’t agree with you? Ever consider that?
Ok. There’s a lot to unpack here. If you’re considering voting for him anyway, there’s no weight behind your threat to withhold your vote. The problem is that not everyone thinks that way, and encouraging people to essentially burn their vote and endanger Biden’s reelection is that the only other option is Trump. Myself, and many others in this community see this as a flagrantly irresponsible gamble to be making. That’s why we push back against it. I emphatically support protesting, but not protest voting. I emphatically support the idea of a general strike, but still not protest voting. There are plenty of people like me, who want to see the genocide end, but also recognize the very real fact that the consequences of fucking around come general election time may very well be continued genocide and fascism. Just like some people say voting for a candidate supporting a genocide is a line they won’t cross, ushering in the age of trumpist fascism in the US is a line we won’t cross. The thing you seem to fail to consider is that there are more of us than you think.
Amen! I feel like my post history is 90% calling out these bullshit accounts, and 10% random other non-political stuff.
That’s almost all I do here. These people should be outed for what they are.
Yeah, same. Mine is a mix of dumb memes posted to Ten Forward, dumb joke comments on random posts, and “both siders are fucking morons”-type comments.
To be entirely fair, the Republican party does a good job of criticizing themselves.
Consider that a lot of the discourse you're seeing is from people who already believe the democratic party is the lesser of the two evils they're probably going to vote for them regardless.
If you're engaging in a conversation with someone else, whose only tangible difference between the two of you is that one of you believes Dems are a-okay, and one believes that both parties are shit, the only real talking points they have are what the Dems do that aren't great.
Obviously I don't think this is every case, but I know that if I wasn't already primed to have THIS argument, that'd probably be the route it'd take.
That is why every time someone brings up Genocide Joe, I bring up Turbo Genocide Donny
literally whataboutism
It's not, though. Nice try.
saying something doesnt make it true.
Take your own advice then, champ.
Needs more alliteration
Biden is the fucking commander in chief.
Congress exists as a coequal branch of the government and is who actually makes laws. The president can only exercise policies to execute those laws.
This is elementary school civics in the US. Being commander in chief doesn't mean Biden can change funding and laws on a whim.
From: https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/presidential-actions/2023/02/23/memorandum-on-united-states-conventional-arms-transfer-policy/
Biden could act unilaterally here.
Yes, and he needs a declaration of war to go to war. 🙄 Just because your education ended with an elementary school reading of the constitution, doesn't mean that's how the country operates in practice.
"Checks and balances" exist in name only. Sure the supreme court or congress could strike down new social programs, but war and spy powers exist independently from the legislative and judicial branches.
Republicans don't pretend to care they wear their bigotry on their shoulder, Democrats are covert in their bigotry and their racism that's why they are often called out for it
I've noticed they will have a little tirade if you ask them what is the logical consistency that they support China despite being "against" Gaza genocide in a way that means they couldn't possibly vote for harm reduction.
voting is not a harm reduction strategy.
It is if you think women losing access to healthcare or Ukrainians being massacred is harm.
voting isn't a harm reduction strategy. a harm reduction strategy would be recognizing those bad things are going to happen and helping people mitigate the fallout.
Yes, by voting for the party that isn't saying we should have the National Guard brutalize protesters, that protesters should be deported, and that Israel would be justified in nuking Gaza.
I’ve been pointing that out all the time. They’re never on any posts critical of Trump. Only anything about Biden. It it’s critical, they’re there to agree- if it’s positive, they’re there to shit all over it.
Also notice how there's never any talk about what they wish Biden was doing instead.
I wish Biden would stop sending weapons to Israel.
From another comment:
POTUS has the power to pause military equipment shipments. Biden did exactly this with Israel, as have a few other presidents in other situations. The current congressional Republicans put forward legislation to prevent POTUS from being able to do that. (I'm not sure whether that bill got anywhere or not.) Biden said he would veto such a bill.
Foreign military aid to Israel is supplied as of the terms of the United States - Israel Strategic Partnership Act of 2014, a ten year agreement to supply Israel with certain military aid, which was signed by the US and Israel in 2016, and which took effect in 2018. That was passed by Congress. POTUS does not have the power to unilaterally end that agreement; Congress does.
False
Oh, hey, I have seen you before. One of the accelerationists who wants China to expand its influence despite what they are doing to Uyghurs.
Nor any suggestions on who could win in his place. Ask them. Every time- make a game out of it.
They NEVER answer it. Not once. I’ve asked them who is currently running that can win November. Not a single one of them has made a peep of a suggestion.
Is that Jill Stein? She barely scraped past 1% of the popular vote in 2016, less than 1/3 of fucking Gary Johnson.
Oh but this time, this time Dems will learn a lesson and turn full leftist 2028. There's no risk either since muh both sides are dictators so it's equally bad either way.
I think there was some guy from California that was recently polling (yes polling, not locked in votes at all) around 3% in a handful of states and some of the both-siders were breaking their arms jerking each other off about it. I don’t remember the dude’s name, for the obvious reason of his candidacy being completely unviable.
How is this distinct from the current situation, where Israel has killed at least 35,000 people, is starving around a million more, shows no signs of changing course, and also we are giving them bombs to carry it out?
The time to start applying gentle pressure was about 8 months ago.
Well said.
Have the weapon shipments to Israel stopped?
No, neither has the money
Israel's pack is against the wall against... Hamas?
They managed to push those bastards back, before they've destroyed the Gaza strip.
Do not misrepresent what you know full well I am talking about.
They're running out of conventional weapons because they don't have the resources to flatten Gaza?
The demand is to stop the genocide, not to demilitarize Israel.
I always forget ceasefire agreements mean they keep shooting.
Against Iran. Which is Hamas' big brother.
(This comment is not approval of Israel's actions)
The protests don't ask for Israel not defending itself. They demand a stop to the revenge-rampage Israel is carrying out.
My comment has nothing to do with protests and never implies approval of Israel's actions.
What do you think the post was about? O.o
You asked about Israel having their back against the wall (Hamas).
I clarified the bigger challenge Israel would hypothetically be against the wall with would be Iran. That's it.
Edit then you randomly brought protests up into a tightly scoped comment chain.
No kidding huh, I can't believe people don't see this. You want to influence Israel? You can't do that if you cut off communication and shun them.
Not continuing to provide them with weapons of war while they are actively committing genocide is not cutting off communication and shunning them.
That's on congress, not Biden.
Incorrect. We already have a law to not ship weapons to people who are credibly accused of what Israel is credibly accused of. As the Chief Executive Biden could simply follow that law which is well within his power to execute.
And yet I don’t see Republicans shooting down any Israel aid bills. Interesting, no?
“It’s Republicans’ fault that the US keeps sending weapons to Israel” doesn’t make sense when Republicans only control the House and Biden has to sign any bills they want passed.
Biden can only stop sales that are below a certain amount. Congress has been approving sales that are above this amount.
Does that apply to all countries the US has differences with?
It is complicated. I don't bother acting like I know what's going on, I just accept that there is guaranteed to be more complicated reasons than what we are often given. This means the problem is extremely simple:
Critical Thinking Skills and willingness to challenge one's own beliefs.
Which is a strong reason why far too many people continue to parrot the same arguments. Biden could at this point cause an act of God to occur, reset the timeline, and if people remembered we'd still be hearing it.
There was another similar ceasefire a couple of months ago that got vetoed by Chairman Xi Jinping, as well. They say any ceasefire proposal which includes complete release of all Israeli hostages is unacceptable, for some reason.
Which would end up with Israel in a war not just with Palestine but probably other countries in the region. And something I feel people forget: Israel has nuclear weapons but doesn't acknowledge them. Which means we don't have a great idea of their nuclear capability. So if Israel's existence is being threatened, there's a good chance to ruin that part of the world for generations and/or start WW3.
Are you saying that if the US stops sending Israel weapons, they will likely start a nuclear war? Bruh
If Israel is fighting for it's survival and it has nukes? Uh yeah? That's why no one's itching to invade Russia even though they are a LOT weaker than expected.
Guess I just don't see the flattening of Gaza and displacement of more than 1 million Palestinian civilians as Israel "fighting for it's survival," nor do I see an immediate cessation of sending US bombs to Israel as leaving them in the dust.
Remember though that Iran has already launched a significant attack on Israel, and it was because of the US and their allies that casualties were heavily curbed. If the US had previously stopped all operations, it could very well have turned into an existential war for Israel.
None of that remotely defends what Israel is doing. And I completely agree we need to stop sending them bombs and additional military support for Gaza. But my point is that there is a potential for a much bigger, possibly nuclear conflict if countries cut all ties.
I get what you're saying, but I'm not certain the Iranian drone attack would have even happened if Israel hadn't been engaged in the raising of Gaza with US backing.
I mean, Israel bombed an Iranian embassy two weeks before that occurred.
I'm in somewhat agreement with you. On the one hand, there are innocent Israelis who need to be protected (here, I don't necessarily buy the nuclear risk, tbh. Continued US protection is more about prevention of civilian casualties, to me ). On the other, our continued support further emboldens Israel to keep fucking shit up over there, so of course they're going to experience aggression from their neighbors.
Unfortunately this starts getting into a game of who-shot-first, which is a bad state to be in.
If anything, all this is a win-win for the "defense" industry.
Edit: also, for the record, and in the context of this thread, even though I'd argue against continued US military support of Israel, and that Biden hasn't been forceful enough on that issue, and that Democrats in general are too comfortable with the status quo regarding free market capitalism for individuals and socialism for the corporations, and that many of them serve their own interests or those of corporations, you still gotta vote for Biden this election, especially if you're in a swing state. The two parties are not the same, even if they do both suck. The degrees of suckage are not equal.
I completely agree, and you have a good point that Israel did bomb the embassy first. Technically Iran does seem to support Hamas, but they still doesn't justify what Israel did.
All in all, Israel is inserting itself into these situations. They're being genocidal and aggressive, and prompting responses. They feel justified in lethal force for self defence, only after they purposely put themselves in harm's way. My ideal US policy at this point would be defending civilians and nothing else -- but even then, like you say, it emboldens Israel to continue being a rogue state.
And I agree with your final sentiment completely. Democrats aren't perfect, but Republicans are so terrible by comparison that they make Democrats look like spotless. I see a vote for Biden and Democrats as a means to eventually address the issues with unfettered capitalism and corporate greed -- the Republican party is fractured and in a bad place. Repeated Democrat victories by high margins will destroy their party, and allow us to finally focus on reining in corporations and nationalizing critical industries. We need Republicans out of the way first before we can fix those. You can't fix a house with totally broken plumbing if it's currently on fire.
Sounds like Russia.
Great work on the peace deal, fellas. I think we can treat ourselves to another 20 billion of bombs to Israel to celebrate.
Should we allow Russia to just run over Ukraine? They have the largest nuclear arsenal on Earth. Who knows what happens when their backs are against the wall.
I don't really disagree with you, but I do unironically think we should have invaded Israel months ago.
Both sides do suck. but only one is trying to get an orange dictator elected. I'm still voting Biden. Democrats aren't perfect but it's the only choice we have.
The only person who can so militantly cling to the idea that both sides are exactly the same is the person for whom the outcomes are exactly the same.
IE the person who needs to do a lot more shutting the fuck up and listening to the people for whom this shit is life and death.
Sure, both sides are not the same. But the "good" side is still part of the system that allows the "bad" side to exist.
So by all means, vote for the party that will do less damage in the short term. But oppose FPTP voting at the same time.
both sides aren't bad.
one side is bad. the other side is a comically evil, fucking nightmare that is going to make sure all future generations for the foreseeable future will suffer things that can be avoided by voting for the "bad" side.
don't be stupid. one side is banning abortion, is going to go after simple contraceptives next, and will certainly ban gay marriage as soon as possible. their obsession with trans people is just a foot in the door.
And to say bOtHsIdEsSaMe you have to simplify to the point of stupidity to try to equate them. There's no detail or nuance. The world is a million shades of grey but they can only see black or white.
Of course, because when you lay it all out, there’s an obvious difference.
Biden rejoined the Paris Climate Agreement, revoked the Keystone Pipeline permit, created a 13 million acre federal petroleum reserve for Alaskan wildlife, greatly increased oil site lease cost, signed $7B in solar subsidies, enacted the Inflation Reduction act to support clean energy, leveraged the NLRB for an FTC ruling that eliminated non-compete agreements, forgave billions in student debt from predatory loans, created the CHIPS Act to improve reliance on domestic technology, reinstated Net Neutrality, repealed Title 42, ended the Muslim Ban, reinstated the law prohibiting Israeli settlement on Palestinian territory, signed the Equality Act for LGBTQ+ rights, restored gay rights to beneficiaries, reenacted trans care anti-discrimination law, signed the Respect for Marriage Act, enabled unspecified gender on US Passports, rejoined WHO, rescheduled marijuana, reducing drug costs with the American Rescue Plan Act…
Trump repealed 112 climate regulations, left the Paris Climate Agreement, disbanded the pandemic response team stalling national pandemic response, left the WHO, repealed trans care anti-discrimination law, repealed gay rights to beneficiaries, enacted Title 42 and the Muslim ban, repealed laws on Israeli settlements on Palestinian territory, repealed Net Neutrality, provided tax cuts to the wealthy that further widened our already exploitative wealth inequality, increased tariffs on goods costing the consumers, repealed the ACA without replacement, seated the conservatives in SCOTUS that repealed Roe v. Wade…
I like when you bring some of that up and they say, for example, that Dobbs is actually Biden's fault because he was in office at the time. That's the best their think tanks have come up with, literally ignoring causality in favor of correlation.
100% true. "Both sides" arguments exist SOLELY to deflect from awful things done by Republicans, or detract from positive things done by Democrats.
Not once have I seen it deployed for any other purpose.
Edit for the pedants: I should probably have not led with "100% true" before the sentence where I clearly stated my position. Although I think the delta between what I wrote after that and what is in OP is a difference without a distinction, if some of you want to feel like you really got me, you go right ahead.
Absolutely correct. And when you see them here on lemmy, and there are a TON of them suggesting not to vote-
CALL THEM OUT.
I would LOVE to see a movement form to start pushing these bad actors out of here.
Don't forget, Trump said if minorities vote, Republicans will never win another election. Republicans are doing what they can to stay in power and make it harder for people to vote.
Vote.
And vote down-ticket. Your local elections are far more important than the presidency.
Both sides are bad, votes third party.
But both sides ARE bad. Still, go vote.
It's ok to be critical of our politicians regardless of which "team" they're on. We should all be holding their feet to the fire every day.
Plus they cherry-pick items, take them out of context, distort them, then bombard social media with it in a way that tries to push as many visceral buttons as they can.
All the while actively ignoring any and all information that might challenge the narrative they are cynically pushing, of course.
It's probably damn near impossible to fully disentangle oneself from this addictive web, we all have fallen prey to weaponized disinformation at some level or other, and different disinformation campaigns target different segments of the population.
"both sides" arguments exist to remind us that neither is our friend. Yes, there are clear differences between the two, but I'm not going to sit here and pretend that one is the "good guys" and ones some unfathomable evil entity.
Neither side is my friend, and I aim to remember that. It doesn't mean I'm going to not vote. It doesn't mean I'm going to encourage others to not vote. It's simply an expression of "I am voting now under duress. None of these options appeals to me, but I must participate in the system lest I be consumed by it."
Both sides are bad. But vote anyway.
I watched this standup special (Chad Daniels) and I found myself getting annoyed at the premise of most of his jokes.
The premise is that there is a far left and a far right and both sides are bad and need to move closer to the middle.
A joke he made, for instance, boiled down to far right were racists while the far left is overly compassionate to living things. See, both sides are bad!
First, his far right example was not an exaggeration. That is literally how people on the far right think. The far left example was a funny exaggeration that almost nobody on the left believes.
Second, even with his exaggeration, the 2 extremes are in no way equivalently extreme. The far right needs to come over significantly before it is equally extreme as the far left.
Anyway, I felt like this whole special was an example of what is wrong with the way society talks about the right and left.
I made a graph:
FL—-——|M|—————————————-FR
In politics all parties are bad, each in their own unique way. It's just that they can be bad to vastly differing degrees.
Unfortunately lots of people struggle with continuums and see only black and white.
Republicans have argued, under oath, that high voter turnout is unfair for their electoral chances.
Eliminating the First Past the Post voting system would enable people to vote for third-party candidates without the risk of a spoiler effect. This change would foster competition in the electoral process, enhancing the quality of candidates for all voters. Additionally, it would likely increase voter turnout and political engagement.
Electoral reform is possible at the state level, Alaska and Maine have already passed electoral reform so it is possible to get this done.
Republicans have already made moves to protect First Past the Post voting. Florida recently made Ranked Choice voting illegal. Fortunately there are many alternatives to FPTP, so the ban still isn't in the way of passing electoral reform.
So the question remains, why do Blue states still use FPTP voting? Why would you want to use the voting system republicans prefer? There are no republicans stopping these reforms in states that democrats control.
It is clear that democrats understand the flaws of FPTP voting, just talk about voting third party in nearly any social media and you will get a entire flock of Democrats lecturing you on how a vote not for a democrat is a vote for a republican. How can you admit the voting system is flawed and then not make any moves to rectify the situation is beyond me. You don't get to lecture people on the flaws of FPTP voting and then do nothing to fix the issue.
I'm going to vote for the democrat this November but I think most folks who talk about this issue are not disingenuous. Voting in the presidential election is a bare minimum, minimally effective political action. For me and most of the people I know it matters almost not at all because I don't live in a swing state. My local elections matter a hell of a lot more.
There are limits to the effectiveness of electoralism that are worth understanding. I think a lot of folks who talk about the Democrat's failures are advocating for political action beyond voting. Direct action is a far more effective form of political action that people should be putting their energies into.
Union organizing, renter's orgs, housing activism, talking to your neighbors, local politics, and lots more are much more effective ways to assert power in your life. Voting makes me feel helpless. We need to act as well. The primary thing preventing positive political change is the belief that we can't do anything to bring that change about.
But what if I don't want a typical Democrat in office either?
I just want one election in my life where it's not the end of the goddamn world if Democrats lose, so I'm allowed to vote for someone I actually like.
Just one fucking election.
Bro vote democrat this time. I'm sure next elections the republican candidate will be better when they inevitably win. I'm sure the democrat candidate will be better too, bro, I swear, just vote. The spiral towards right wing because of the recurring "lesser evil vote" will get better bro I swear.
The intent of someone's speech, or even its outcome, does not make it incorrect. A culture of hiding from reality thinking in doing so it will give us certain outcomes is what this practice will create.
Then they better get started earning those votes
Get involved locally and build from there. Under 60? You'll be the youngest there in a lot of Democratic clubs.
Both sides are bad
It's jut that one is kinda great with a bunch of bad things, the other is a pineapple up your ass nightmare shitshow.
Which one to choose, choices choices choices...
You should definitely vote, at a minimum. But if you want real change, you need direct action.
You need to do more than merely vote
Just remember, people: the US is always one election away from sudden, irrevocable demise. But if you elect the conservative with a D next to their name, then America gets to continue its slow, but inexorable socioeconomic decline as the executive and legislative representatives continue to ignore the policies of the progressives who held their nose to keep them in power. Asking for anything more is both foolish and, even worse, selfish.
As a conservative democrat myself, who will never be forced to compromise any of my ideological positions because the status quo of every election being "too important to lose" is at this point part of the core design of our two party political system, I can say with confidence that if I were ever faced with the choice of voting between an outright fascist and a socialist candidate, that I would definitely vote the only way that made sense to preserve the corporate oligarchy on which the fragile veneer of American democracy rests. Which is to say that I would vote for the fascist, obviously.
If you want to actually vote for progressive candidates, then you are free to move to Mexico and start farming avocados for the cartels.
Hey France has a lesson for you: 2 years ago the liberals called the left to vote for them in order to prevent the far right from getting elected.
For 2 years the liberals governed with the leaning to far right - right. The far right applauded many of their policies.
This Sunday the far right went first in the European election, because the left was a bunch of clowns and everyone hates the liberal government.
1h after the results, the Liberal president Macron disbanded the parliament. Now there are 3 weeks to elect a new parliament. He also opted for a vote that favors the biggest, so the far right is favoured, and there's no time for a campaign and barely enough time for the left to unite. The president is also still saying on TV that the left is just as bad and as extreme as the far right.
We didn't see it coming, but the liberal who pretended he would fight the far right is the first accelerationist in France. It is chaos right now, and the far right has never been so close from being in power in France since 1944. The 5th Republic is almost a presidential regime btw, so if the far right has the power, it'll be very dirty.
Trust the liberals they said, it's better than the far right...
Oh, they see the connection. They just want Republicans in office. They don't give a fuck about the suffering of minorities, they just want the worst possible option in power so they can feel smug about "not supporting the system".
I say that and mean it. Still going to vote for that twat biden. He is a better choice than our low grade hitler wanna be trump.
When your only viable defense to moral superiority is a strawman rather than accepting criticism of your side and labeling it a "both side are same" rhetoric to shift blame.
If tons of people voted Democrat in this upcoming election, we'd see more AOC and Mamdamni types in the next one.
this aged like wine
Actually they are designed to make people vote third party. Critical voter mass moving to third party is the only option to end the duopoly political system that literally everybody agrees is bad and undemocratic.
Gas lighting people into believing there is only 2 choices when there isnt is how this corrupt system maintains its power.
No. They have plenty of voters. I'm so tired of this liberal bashing of people with fucking empathy and a tired deposition towards the apathetic unhelpful political parties in charge, as your way to get more votes.
I get that we have a binary decision with our presidency election but no, this is not an effective method other than to piss off people you are essentially stating straight up you think of as lesser.
get f*ked. George carlin applies.
Representative democracy is hard.
Yeah well neither is your friend. Both consistently take away your rights and give you barley anything. You can say both are bad but one is worse, sure.
Do you want your Brussels sprouts boiled or steamed?
We're like children getting tricked by our parents into making a choice we didn't want.
Why would I want Moloch when the other option is Baal?
Both sides are bad. that's factually correct information
votes 3rd party
Nah i encourage people to vote for a better candidate
That's an hyper-simplist take, self-serving if the author is a Democrat tribalist.
A Biden victory will have two effects:
So what's at stake is a Trump victory now (what Trump might or not do once in power is mainly speculation, and the more extreme theories being pitched by people who stand to gain if their candidate wins instead of Trump, have to be taken with a pinch because they'se self-serving political propaganda) versus what will happen in subsequent elections.
(The whole "what might Trump do" uncertainty is what actually makes the whole thing a complex and trully fucked up choice: if one knew with absolute certainty that Trump would end even the flawed thing that passes for Democracy in America, the choice would be an obvious "vote Biden" even at the risk of there only be even worse choices in subsequent elections, because if Trump won now there would be no subsequent elections).
Frankly I don't see any scenario were post-Trump the Republicans become less Fascist and hence the DNC becoming less evil because their upper evilness limit which is "the other guy" gets pushed down, and suspect that who the Republicans will put forward next is a more intelligent version of Trump.
That being so, the only way to push the DNC to in the future put forward less evil candidates (or to not intervene in the Primaries to stop such candidates, like they did to stop Sanders) is to make them fear that they will lose the leftwing vote and hence never again win Presidential elections, and that means Biden has to lose and Trump has to win.
It's a fucking tough choice. (Sorry for the expeletive, but it's what better reflects the trully, utterly fucked up nature of the whole "choice")
I'm happy I'm not an American and am not forced into such Hobson's Choice and can thus just intellectually analyse the whole thing without an associated rollercoaster of emotions.
Ah got it so we need to be like Trump's base and ignore any problems Biden has because that encourages people not to vote. /s
You can call out problems with Biden and acknowledge how that is gonna make left leaning people not want to vote for him and average people not care enough to go out and vote at all without supporting not voting for him.
antisemitic tankies in the comments losing their tiny minds
Every time you smear anyone who is completely opposed to an ethnostate committing genocide as antisemitic you are equating being Jewish to supporting the actions of the state of the Israel which is both antisemitic in itself and actively harmful to Jewish people globally.
If you’re making a both sides bad post, be sure to suggest that people vote for a third party, got it!
Btw, have you heard about the party for socialism and liberation? They’re running Claudia de la Cruz for president on a platform of Palestinian liberation and stopping weapons shipments to Israel!
Seriously this sounds like some fucking 2 party propaganda bullshit. we out number them by millions, it really shouldn't be that hard get what we want. It makes me laugh when people think they have a choice in this system. Your voting for 2 evils doesnt matter if one is lesser they are still evil and a vote for either of them is saying you are OK with evil. Only reason no vote or another candidate is not viable is because of people like you falling for their tricks.
Well, that...and the electoral college. When states that have fewer people living in them than one or two major blue cities...it really helps virtually nullify the votes of large swathes of the population.
??? "Keeping people from voting is literally the only way Republicans can stay in office" is just such an objectively false statement I don't know where to start.
Guys, when is the revolution? I wanna burn down every government building and start from scratch. I don't think Americans will be happy whether Biden or Trump is voted in, so we might as well fight both sides and uprise a new one
The "vote democrat to save democracy, you must vote one party, .. for democracy" seems like Orwellian doublespeak at this point, because if you look at the numbers, democracy is about to be heavily eroded over time by the democrats. I'm not even registered to vote, but it's obvious to see the tactics being pushed and enacted.
I'm gonna vote Republican because you assholes just insist on sock puppets. Remember, not voting is a vote for Biden!
Just vote third party, if both options are bad, literally the only thing keeping this two(more like one) party system alive and keeping real progress from happening.
Both sides ARE bad. A revolution is America's only chance for a decent future.
Boy this rhetoric sounds familiar. “Democracy is under attack by Republicans”. Oh right, it’s the exact same goddamn thing Democrats have been saying for the last 15 years. And yet even though they’ve been in power a significant part of that time, somehow we keep inching towards fascism.
At some point you realize that the only real question is do we want fascism next week, or do we want fascism next month? And while I agree that voting for Drumpf is a much worse choice for the country, maybe if Democrats actually did stuff to make every day citizens lives better then maybe it really wouldn’t be much of an argument.
Since 1981 Democrats have had control of the Presidency and Congress a whopping 4 years. One 2 year period under Clinton and one under Obama. That's without factoring in the ability to fillibuster in the Senate. In over 40 years they've only had control 10% of the time.
That period of filibuster-proof control during Obama's term is why we have the ACA. It was ~70 days and they passed the largest healthcare overhaul in generations.
Plus the ACA could have been better if it didn't need to get watered down for the one or two Dems/Independents that helped get it past that stupid filibuster roadblock.
Absolutely. Obligatory fuck Joe Lieberman.
Remember, Democrats cannot achieve anything unless they have the Presidency and a veto-proof majority in both houses of Congress, and even then only if they compromise to the right. The Republicans mysteriously only need the presidency or the slimmest of majorities in either house of Congress to push their agenda with no need to compromise.
$150 billion student loan forgiveness, first big action in climate change ever in US history, CHIPS act, infrastructure act, huge increase in corporate taxes to fund all that stuff, activists in charge of NLRB which gave fuel to all these union gains we've seen in recent years, recovery from covid like it never happened which basically no other first world country was able to do, gain in wages for low-income workers even adjusted for fairly massive inflation, medical debt off credit reports, net neutrality, plus also obviously not the end of democracy in the US is a nice bonus
(Not to say it isn't a problem the Democrats' general level of money-in-politics corruption, or their willingness to continue dogshit US policies like support for Israel. Both of those are massive problems. But saying that they don't do anything to make everyday citizens' lives better is, at least for the last few years, absolutely objectively false.)
The main problem isn't anything about what the Democrats actually do. It's that the priorities of the people who own the news, and the bots that run social media influence campaigns, are not at all aligned with those every day citizens, and so nobody even knows that any of that big list even happened.
They have been. Pay attention.
If you need more to fall the fuck in line than "the other side are fascists running on a platform of doing fascism", you're a fascist.
Yes even if you're whatever minority, gender, sexuality, other, being a moron does not exclude you from still being a fascist, it just makes you a very stupid fascist.
Horseshit
Well, here goes:
If you don’t want to vote for Biden or trump, don’t. I’m voting party for socialism and liberation this November and you can too.
They’re running Claudia de la cruz for president on a platform of Palestinian statehood and cessation of aid to Israel.
It’s better to vote third party than not to vote because even if the third party doesn’t win, they get material support from your vote in the form of funding, ballot and event presence, media appearances and public awareness.
do you have any evidence for this claim?
You do realize that you can vote third party and they maybe better aligned with your values?
The only people taking people’s power away are those telling us that we have to choose between the candidates we don’t like and ignore the ones that we do agree with.
I as an Arab American will not vote for someone enabling the death and destruction of my people. Call us Russian trolls all you want.
The truth hurts. Democrats cry. Vote third party and taste the tears.
Nah, some of us just aren't delusional and see how both sides are ineffective, ignore their constituents, corrupt(look at the stock trading of any politician for an example), and a whole host of other problems. Some of us want a party we can actually support, not just "the lesser of two evils". Itd be nice to have a candidate that you actually want to vote for on their own merits.
But nah, just paint us as whiny conservatives trying to trick you, not your fellow Democrats who are fed up with the shit show we've been fed our entire lives. This is one of the most pathetic Democrat Defenses: "if you don't agree with us, you're really a smelly conservative!". Nah, I just don't agree that you have the ability or desire to actually make things better. And I'm not gonna keep a broken system on life support just for your comfort. I WANT the system to collapse because it's already a mockery of what it should be. If it collapses, we either go full authoritarian and stop pretending we're not(so at least we're finally honest), or maybe, just maybe, a different voice can rise up for once.
Either way, better than voting for Giant Douche vs Turd Sandwich and continuing the same broken system for another 100 years.
For all the people down voting me, does the following sound familiar? "Election happens. Told Vote D or a R wins and everything will be worse! Elect a D. They can't get anything done because the Rs prevent them. Rs proceed to win next election and completely change major laws on a whim. Ds continue to complain that they can't stop the Rs". So why would I vote for a party that openly admits they can't get shit done? The entire Democrat playbook is "The Republicans wouldn't let us". Fuck that bullshit. If you can't see it for the scam it is, you deserve this bullshit. It's a party of eunichs. It needs to die and be replaced with an actually progressive party, not another shade of R.
People really think that voting for a person they never met in person will change their lives for the better
Ah, I see, we've come from "vote for the lesser evil" to "anyone claiming that the democrats are bad is on Putin's/the Repuplican's payroll".
Or how else should we interpret that "specifically designed" part?
"Specifically designed" means exactly what you're saying it means. Nobody said Russians; they said artificial. This article gives a quick overview of what's been academically analyzed about it, which in my un-expert opinions is a few years' behind in terms of how it actually works in the modern day:
I can only speak for my observations on Reddit and Lemmy, but it is absolutely undeniable to me that there are fake users on both platforms who are pushing specific narratives, and I 100% believe that "don't vote it doesn't do anything" is one of them.
Are they saying "don't vote", or that voting isn't as effective as other means for social change. There is a difference.
Have you actually looked at that community? You think those are russian bots? Please. 🙄
No... but I understand how I might have given that impression. I think the slrpnk community is kind of an outlier in that it actually does have some anti-electoralism that's a legit outgrowth of honest anarchism, that I honestly don't really have a problem with. I don't think that community is bots, Russian or otherwise, no. (Edit: Well... not all bots. I do think there are a couple propaganda accounts on slrpnk but that almost all of the discourse is organic, and the nature of the landscape means that the propaganda can afford to be a lot less obvious.)
For the most part, I actually think the propaganda accounts on Lemmy are more subtle than coming out and saying "don't vote." They say things like, both parties are the same, or "Genocide Joe," or they could never support a genocide, or it feels so unfair that we have to do this every four years and nothing ever changes, things like that. I just grabbed one random example to answer your question about, are they saying "don't vote".
Do you want me to find an example of something I think is explicit propaganda that is also explicitly saying "don't vote"? I can do that too; that one maybe poorly chosen example is just the first thing that popped into my mind.
No, I don't want you to do that. As an anarchist, I felt misrepresented, that's all. But since you say that you don't have a problem with anarchism, we're cool.
Yeah, makes sense. Like I say I think I chose my example poorly; it was just the first and most explicit thing that came to mind.
Yeah, liberals... keep pretending that your superficial pearl-clutching when it comes to US-sponsored genocide makes you all that different than your (so-called) "conservative" cousins.
"If you want things to improve you are literally a fascist" - A neoliberal guide to democracy
And yet here you are spouting nonsense. Tell me oh wise one, which of the 4 choices would you make come November? 1) vote for Biden, 2) vote for Trump, 3) vote 3rd party, or 4) don’t vote?
Come out and say you support Trump then.
If yousdon't have a plan B for Trump winning or after the election in general, I'd call you the defeatist, sorry.
That's all my criticism: Don't have too much faith in electoralism and have a plan B.
Ok so what's the plan b?
Are you telling me you don't have a plan how to defend minorities and women's health if Trump wins?
I can do what I can but a lot is out of my control. I can't change laws or help people far away. Except of course by voting and donating, but I only have so much money. I'd rather prevent the possible harm to people as much as possible, rather than have to try to stop things after they've gone bad. And in terms of prevention, I don't have a plan b.
Join a mutual aid and community defense group. Help your community. Don't depend on lawmakers and judges. They've proven time and time again they're not on yopr side.
Are you implying you'll live abroad?
If so (I await your confirmation) that's a very privileged take.
No, I'm implying that progressives should start to take politics into their own hands and don't rely on what's happening in washington.
You can vote for Biden to your heart's content in November, but do you have to defend unwavering support of genocide in June? Biden voters, more than anyone else, should be at his throat for it, but I guess it's not the right time to not want massacres.
Maybe give me a timetable of when it's convenient for you to not want my family murdered
Can you answer me how the situtation would be bettered by the Republican who literally moved the embassy to Jerusalem to recognize that as the Israeli capital?
This wouldn't be the horse race it is if Biden had better policy. You should be pissed that your candidate is running such a shit campaign and disparaging college kids fighting for their beliefs.
It wouldn't. Criticizing Biden doesn't mean you want Trump to win? I'm baffled that this has to be explained.
You might not want it, but the fact is that we have a two party system in the US, and reducing support for one side always increases relative support for the other.
I'm baffled that this has to be explained.
So no one is allowed to criticize anything the democrats do because this is a zero sum game and anything you do just makes the republicans stronger. What a fantastic excuse.
Who said that? Maybe you're taking my assessment of the propagandist drumbeat about genocide being Biden's fault the wrong way.
It's real funny how you and your ilk never show up criticizing Netanyahu, who is, you know, the guy over-prosecuting this conflict.
It does in the case of election/voting choices.
To your point, criticizing Biden / the government now, in June is totally fine. And necessary. What's happening in the world, with a USA stamp on it is unacceptable.
Unfortunately republican actors are also doing that now and following up by saying "so that's why I'm not voting for Biden"
Oh stop with your strawman about how the person you're responding to, who did not mention Gaza/Israel AT ALL, is supporting genocide.
Biden supports genocide. A vote for Biden, regardless if it's the logical choice, is a vote for genocide wether you made peace with that or not. That's what electoralism gets you.
Want to offset that? Then make him stop supporting genocide. Here's a hint: He wants your votes
If you want to play that game, a vote for Biden is a vote for genocide-lite and any other action that leads to better trump chances is a vote (implicit or explicit vote) for genocide-max.
This argument could only be made by someone raised on propaganda and rife with Stockholm Syndrome.
Big words from a .ml user.
I simply acknowledge I am in a no-win, limited outcome situation. As such, I move to select the lesser harm option
No. But if your actions aid a fascist takeover you are either a fascist or a useful idiot.
if you want them to improve do not take action or inaction that will cause them to deteriorate.
Is "criticizing gleeful support of genocide" an action that will cause things to deteriorate? Is "asking elected officials to not be pieces of shit if they want to be elected fulfilling the basic concept of democracy" an action that will cause things to deteriorate?
no but not voting for the better option is.
Ok, vote for him in November.
Why defend the genocide now? Shouldn't he be treated like every other genocidal fucker until then?
No one is doing that. The OP is about voting.
The OP is about stomping out dissent and deflecting criticism
Seems you're having trouble with basic reading comprehension since you're all over this thread spouting this nonsense.
Nope, it's literally just you that is talking about that.
If your idea of improving things is to directly support the fashiest fascist you can find, then yes, you are indistinguishable from a fascist, and I will not attempt to draw a distinction without a difference.
Phew, I'm glad it's not then.
If you don't see how people are unable to vote for a Democratic party that is shamelessly supporting genocide you have a problem.
Regardless of whether or not you are ok with actively voting for a staunch genocide supporter, you should be able to intellectually understand why people can't approve the Democratic party's unconditional genocide support.
And just to be clear, you understand the consequences of acting like a tantrum throwing child right?
The party of "wipe them all out!", and move the embassy to Jerusalem and recognize that as the Israeli capital runs the country then.
and this is how we got reagan and bush jr. (sure those in iraq appreciate the moral stance) and of course trump part 1
My neck is one of the first on the chopping block. Yes.
It's up to neoliberals to change their politics, if they don't our democracy is fucked anyway. This is the one last chance to try and shock them into understanding how they're failing.
Rewarding Biden with a second term will reinforce that Democratic support for genocide is ok as long as they employ a pied piper strategy and help prop up extreme right-wing.
And what, exactly, is the other option? Third parties can't win in FPTP. The DNC isn't going to just suddenly pick Bernie, who isn't even running. So you SAY you want change but your solution is to not vote for the lesser evil. This directly helps a fascist get into power.
Ergo: you are a fascist supporter.
The focus should be on changing the Democratic party politics. Nothing else matters because Democrats represent the only potential chance of combatting fascism, but they are not fit to do so with their current leadership and the strategies they're deploying to force their corporate fucks into office. Encouraging them to continue along the path they're on will only lead to fascism.
Their strategies need to change. They don't respond to public sentiment or outcry, they don't respond to reason or or sympathy or compromise, they only respond to real material threats to their power.
I'm not waiting a generation for Democrats to get their shit together. That's a non-starter. They need to change yesterday, if they don't change and just try to strong arm people into voting for evil candidates then the democracy is full dead.
Ok but how does getting Trump elected do that? He says he's going to be a dictator Day 1. There aren't going to BE any more elections after that. All your high and mighty speech is just bullshit if you don't vote strategically to prevent a literal fascist.
This is why people who don't vote Biden in November are just fascists. If your actions knowingly help a fascist, you are one.
So now you're willfully ignoring Project 2025, and Trump stating he is going to be dictator day 1. Not only that, but with a compromised judicial and legislative branch, you really are gonna sit there and say:
You're not sincere, and if you are, I now can see why you're doubling down on stupidity.
"If the entire democratic party doesn't do what I want, fascists win"
Sounds like what a fascist would say. Go fight your violent revolution in your mind, which is the only place you'll be surviving. Absolutely fucking unhinged.
What nonsense. By this time in the election cycle it is too late to change who the 2 candidates are. You sound so incredibly naive with your comment essentially saying “I’m going to just let it all burn down since I can’t vote for the perfect candidate”. Stop your misinformation.
Want a better candidate? Start pushing earlier and in more local elections. Let those candidates build their political careers and move the country left.
You acknowledge your life will be in danger if Trump wins, but yet double down on stupidity. I have a hard time believing you.
You failed to addess my statement.
If Biden does not win in November, that will mean that Trump has.
There is no magic left wing write in.
So you know you can do an easy action to make some people's lives better, to delay fascism, and save minorities from a plan to essentially wipe them out, but you won't because of principles? Because of some notion that the Democratic party will learn from losing?
You know that they lost in 2020 to a fascist. This already happened and the result was 4 years of hell for every minority group in the country. Why do you think this would be any better, or accomplish anything?
No, I won't because the party will not change direction without electoral consequences.
A vote for pro-genocide Democrats at this point is still a vote for inevitable fascism and increasingly worse civil strife.
A delay is only useful if the people you're giving power to will use it to fight. Biden and corporate democrats have proven beyond any dispute that they will not fight. That's how we got here, by relying on corporate democrats to stem the tide.
Ok?
Go ahead and vote for the party that writes "finish them off" on bombs destined for Gaza, then? Or abstain, and get them elected, essentially the same?
I won't be voting Republican. No.
And no, it's not the same. If it was, then a maga supporter could claim that my uncommitted vote is actually a vote for Biden because I didn't vote for Trump. Time to give up on this talking point, it's nonsensical.
It's not because the land-focused voting system we have favors republicans, not to mention gerrymandering.
Also I swear you've forgotten 2020. The same fucking thing happened, people didn't want to vote for a moderate democrat, and so a racist, abusive fascist got elected instead.
The math is literally there, not voting for the closer candidate to you is identical to voting for the other guy.
We have been using small words and slow speaking to explain FPTP to you disingenuous mother fuckers since Nader, just fucking stop acting like you're doing anything except sea lioning because asking these questions in circles forever has better optics than admitting you care more about feeling valid about whatever white kid bullshit you're on than you do about saving trans lives.
Tell me, when was the last time a progressive was in the white house? When have we had a progressive house leader? When was the last progressive majority?
Tell me again where the Democratic opposition to the Patriot Act was? How about FISA surveillance? Hmm, Iraq War? No. Citizens United! Surely you neolibs stood in the way of that, right?
Nope, you guys have been at the helm for decades, what's your record actually show? Where are women's bodily rights again? How about healthcare reform? At least your guys got to force people to pay for private insurance, right? We're all so grateful to you for that.
So how's that opposition to fascism actually going? We elected Biden like you demanded and got a genocide for it. But, maybe you're right, maybe I'm just not intellectual enough to see how if move the party further and further to the right, to the point where you're now doing apologetics for a genocide, we'll eventually turn things around.
From their perspective not voting for Trump is a vote for Biden, which is why it would be great if they acknowlwedged how awful Trump is and kept their MAGA asses at home.
That is because not voting is like voting for your personal worst choice.
I will give up this talking point the day the US doesn't have a two-party system.
So Dems can literally do anything and you'll support them. They support genocide and you accept that.
Let me guess, if we just vote the technically lesser evil they'll change this time, right? If we just elect one more corporate dem with lobby money falling out of their ass that'll get the party to change direction, right?
Just keep voting Republican-lite and one of these days the slide towards fascism will reverse, magically. It's been working really well these last forty years, right? People have done exactly what you're suggesting and things have just been getting better and better huh.
Delusional. And all just to avoid having to face having your comfortable bubble of denial popped. All those Americans getting churned up and crushed by the consequences of your political support for do-nothing policy just need to understand that you're doing ok in the status quo, so they need to understand it's their obligation to protect you. They just gotta take a few more for the team
There are only two choices in this election. Democrat or republican. Due to the way the US election system works, not voting against the fascists who literally have a playbook on how to destroy the US democracy is the same as voting for the fascists who literally have a playbook on how to destroy the US democracy.
The Israelis committing genocide is not even close to the biggest threat facing our country at the moment.
Plus, Trump literally wants to nuke Gaza, while Biden is trying to get Israeli to agree to a cease fire. Not to mention that congress is responsible for the sales of arms.
The delusion is ignoring the election and then complaining (edit about what gets elected). I'm SURE you won't do that.
The goal is to do harm reduction now, and start building a better candidate for next time.
No ones ignoring the election. You vote and send a clear message that they can't ignore; Uncommitted. i.e. "I voted against you because of genocide. Period." There will be no room for blithering about how maybe dems didn't appeal to imaginary disillusioned Republicans enough or that people want bipartisan genocide or how we can afford to ignore the youth vote blah blah. The reason they lost the vote will be crystal fucking clear.
They can then choose to accept that reality and adjust, or they can deny it and continue doing the same losing strategy. If they continue using the same losing strategy at that point then that is a sure sign that the DNC will never be capable of learning or adapting and that they will never be capable of confronting fascism. And at that point the American people need to start considering harder realities.
This has never worked. We are where we are right now because this kind of thinking has been allowed to prevail in the Democratic party. Things have not improved, we have lost basic rights, not gained more. We have grown closer to fascism inder the corporate Democrat leadership, not further.
When they spit in your fucking face next election cycle and tell you to vote for their chosen corporate conservative Dem like a good dog you'll do it, repeating the same brainless line you're trying to spin right now.
Know how I know? Because it's been the same bullshit neoliberals have been doing for forty fucking years. Same trajectory of failure and short-term, fear-based voting.
Ok enjoy trump HAPPILY supporting genocide ENTHUSIASTICALLY both in Palestine and in Ukraine.
You are in a limited outcome situation. You get one choice in January: trump or Biden. One of them will be president.
Edit I share the opinion bidens choices are very very bad, I just acknowledge trump will make them worse
Exactly. It's almost like people don't understand how party politics work. It's always about holding your nose and voting for the least bad option. Very rarely is your ideal candidate even on a ballot. If everyone voted only for their ideal candidate, we'd have thousands on the ballot. Even in ranked choice you vote in order of preference but these clowns wouldn't even put a rank to someone like Biden. They'd rather Trump supporters win.
Say those who do.
Genocide is not excusable or justifiable. Ever. It's not something that can be just handwaved away as "regretable".
If the Dems want to win elections they need to A) stop supporting genocide and B) Stop trying to force the pied piper strategy. It's a political failure.
I love the self outing of "pied piper", bro you're just admitting now that you're treating everyone who's actually gonna live the difference you let happen like a bunch of hysterical exaggerating crybabies because how dare people be mad at you for thinking this time surely the establishment will learn it's lesson!
Yeah, we're being crybabies because the Democratic nominee is supporting a genocide. If only we were all wise and worldly like you where we could shrugg it off, right? I mean, what's the big deal about genocide, right? Everyone's so stuck on this "human rights" thing, geez. Grow up everyone, you've gotta have a little genocide sometimes to protect democracy.
How are you going to help prevent genocide when you get genocided yourself for letting fascists win?
A better question; how does Biden represent any serious opposition to fascism when he's literally neck and neck with a convicted felon and can't even bring himself to give up on genocide in order to "save democracy"?
What is your floor for supporting genocide?
Providing wrapons that you say can't be used forbthe genocide even though we know they are being used for that?
Providing funding that could be used on weapons?
Providing intel intended to reduce civilian casualties?
Maintaining diplomatic relations with the country?
Just curious as 'supporting' can be stretched pretty far, and for me the floor would be providing weapons. Anything beyond that is just normal international relations bullshit.
Support for genocide is not stretchy, no. Aiding a government that's committing genocide is supporting genocide. Period.
Is not getting involved in stopping the genocide supporting genocide through inaction?
If both parties are fully genocidal then neither of them represent resistance to it and voting for either is approval.
Reform is the only option. GOP has no chance of reform, Democrats have an infinitesimally narrow window left through which to achieve reform before fascism is fully rooted. They will not reform if rewarded with power.
Those are your democratic options. Do what you think will be least ineffective, and then prepare for the overwhelming statistical liklihood that Democrats will fumble any opportunity you give them out of greed and deluded incompetence.
Well, the good news is that only describes one of the parties that includes people who have said out loud that they support genocide and/or are writing messages supportive of killing Palestinians on the bombs used for genocide.
Yes, and this isn't just about November or a single term.
That's why you keep spinning round and round in the same cycle of DNC abuse, they set themselves up so it's either them or the End of All Things and you swallow that dichotomy whole every time.
I acknowledge the Democrats are handling Israel terribly.
But I also acknowledge the Republicans will do it with a smile. And in Ukraine too. (And a million other things)