Why are there no normal electric cars instead of gimmicks on wheels?
Take a car with an internal combustion engine and replace everything that is needed for an electric car. Now you have a no-nonsense car.
Instead, we have a rolling data center that feels like a smartphone.
252 replies
I think that that's kind of a problem with almost all new cars, not just EVs.
Slate's a pretty stripped-down EV. It's got a mount where you can stick a phone or tablet if you want, but nothing built-in.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slate_(vehicle)
No cell radio. Doesn't even have power windows in the base configuration; it comes with air conditioning and air bags and that's about it.
Note that the range is shorter than, say, a Tesla Model 3 or something.
The range is shorter than a Tesla but the price is about a third so it's not so bad when you factor that in. I wish Slate success I really like their approach to the automobile, they remind me of Framework computer on wheels.
Yeah I hope they succeed: we really need something like that.
I understand why they’re building a truck but I really wish they hadn’t. With that low range and the suv/fastback kits being extra cost, it’s not as compelling to me as it should be
I know a part of me wonders if a two seat with flat bed pickup was significantly cheaper than a four seat car with trunk.
I know what you mean but it’s hard to believe.
However it’s easier to believe
Yeah I want an EV version the Bronco boom of the 70s. We got the Blazer and Scout too.
Or the Matra Rancho if you’re from France.
Hopefully a hot hatch revival can follow once the public gets a taste for simple cheaper EVs.
Probably the auto market has to fully collapse first though. And China is going to pick up tie pieces.
Estimated range: 205 miles.
So real world 150, 100 in winter.
It would do better without the aero of a barn.
Give me AC, A heat pump, 300 miles of range. And two basic speakers. If it doesn't make the 1998 beater i got when i was 19 look fully loaded it aint basic enough. I need to not die from the elements and for it to go from A to B while blasting low quality buttrock.
Well, that's the Slate with a couple addons
Im sold the moment my current ev kicks the bucket I'm getting a slate.
Throw a second battery in the bed and you got the range.
I believe that is a mistake, carplay and android auto are designed to work well when driving, my phone automatically removes all text message notifications and makes me not even notice getting texted to prevent me from getting distracted.
I would like a stripped down car that still has Carplay/Android Auto.
You can install head units into older cars easily to do this. Did it with my old Ute. Android auto for a song.
This would be solved by putting space in the dash for people to install their own head units.
Which they're doing.
Didn't look like it every time I checked
There's a huge space in the dash, it's basically a large glove box. A radio or screen can be hidden behind the door or built into it, whatever you prefer.
Choice and DIY is a big part of Slate's thing. I don't need or want a screen and would not like a car with a big space for one. I'll add it later if I change my mind.
The images and wording are really vague and I couldn't tell if it was for a head unit or just a bluetooth speaker like the electric microcars do.
Am I the only person who uses my phone as the head unit?
The guy I'm replying to already explained why that is suboptimal for him.
iOS has driving mode to stop distractions whether it’s on car play or not. But you have to turn it on.
I’m pretty sure you can choose to install an entertainment center if you wish to. But why should those of us who do not want have to pay?
Interesting. Android auto always makes me more distracted vs if the phone was just normal.
okay, so you can put your device into driving mode
seems like a non-issue
See I like this but man is it expensive. It fits every category I need, well except range.
I'm not sure how that will be road legal in the USA because after the passage of a law in 2018 all vehicles under 10,000 lbs require a backup camera.
"Today’s final rule requires all vehicles under 10,000 pounds, including buses and trucks, manufactured on or after May 1, 2018, to come equipped with rear visibility technology that expands the field of view to enable the driver of a motor vehicle to detect areas behind the vehicle to reduce death and injury resulting from backover incidents. The field of view must include a 10-foot by 20-foot zone directly behind the vehicle. The system must also meet other requirements including image size, linger time, response time, durability, and deactivation."
source
https://www.slateforums.com/forum/threads/backup-camera-display-screen-in-gauge-cluster-in-action-while-reverse.13237/
Gotcha, thank you for that. So they DO have a screen, but its normally in use for the speed/charge gauge cluster, etc. Good solution.
they can put the backup camera display integrated into the rear view mirror, many models of cars had this before the built in tablet computer became ubiquitous.
This is stupid design. When I'm going backward it's always better to have more view angles: rear mirror, side mirrors, backing camera, all of them have different view angle and their use. Blocking mirror with camera display is like losing an eye.
We'll, I have a rear video in mirror and you're completely wrong.
Let's see what Slate actually sells, if they sell anything at all.
Yeah I might get a used slate someday.
Slate is sponsored by daddy Bezos.
Neat. And it looks like it's only 50% more expensive compared to a comparable gas car, which is a huge improvement from the last time I looked.
OP is drinking the oil industry Kool Aid. All cars come with the same sensors and send the same data home. It has nothing to do with the engine.
We should have laws against it, but it certainly isn't limitteed to EVs.
All new ones, yeah. Old cars are probably less spyware-y, but unfortunately none of those are EV (as far as I'm aware).
Rivian gas vehicles have zero sensors. Checkmate athiests!
You wish to elaborate on that bold claim a little? Because there's a ton of sensors that are present in combustion engine but not in EVs and they have everything to do with the engine.
You must be invulnerable to arrows, with your ability to miss the point.
If only I had asked for clarification to better understand the point.
He was obviously referring to telemetry bullshit that spies on you when he said "sensors;" not, like, the O
2sensor an ICE car uses to calculate fuel injection volume.You completely missed the point. OP made a claim "EV cars have lots of gimmicks", this comment is saying "so do non EV cars".
It's not though. Perhaps that is what they mean which is why I asked for clarification but it sure is not what they said.
The discussion isn't about oxygen sensors or knock sensors. They're talking about all the 'smart' features that send all kinds of information about you to the manufacturers. These systems are present in almost all modern cars.
GPS location data, speed, acceleration, braking, video, driver weight, passenger weight, radio preference, podcasts, music,....
All the location, video and entertainment data harvested on EVs is harvested on ICE.
Why are there no normal
electriccars instead of gimicks on wheels? is probably the first question.your statement goes well outside just cars too. all house appliances to start.
I haven't bought appliances in a while. I get the feeling the high end stuff has mandatory tech crap on it, but the low end stuff is still mercifully free of it; I feel like it would be easier to by a fridge that does not spy on you than a car.
I have bought appliances in the last three years. It's pretty easy to get "dumb" appliances, but it's hard to find dumb, high quality appliances, and you pay a premium for them. I heard Speed Queen is the best when it comes to washers and dryers. I have a dumb LG fridge that doesn't try to connect to the interweb or anything. My washer-dryer is LG and has an option to connect to the internet I will never allow.
Speed Queen is the shit. I pulled mine out from under the collapsed roof of an abandoned laundromat in a ghost town in the early 2000s and they're still running fine. Genuinely have no idea how old they are, definitely older than me. 100% electromechanical, schematics printed on access panels, no proprietary components. One of the things that really proves to me just how intentional planned obsolescence is, someone put a lot of effort into building and simplifying the best machine they could to wash clothes before someone else figured out that wasn't the best way to make money
Yeah, recently some fridges stopped working after a forced update (a sentence that shouln't exist), so definitely don't connect anything.
Actually your recipe for an electric car is what US manufacturers tried to do because it didn't require as much retooling. Turns out it is a pretty bad way to make an electric vehicle from scratch. The batteries are big and heavy and need their own space. The best place is in the bottom for weight distribution but instead they had to cram them in the existing engine compartment along with the motor. It's just not as good as designing it to be electric from the ground up. Most of them were compromised and thus didn't sell well.
Regarding the rolling data center, that's actually a different problem that applies to pretty much all new cars. There is a growing backlash against all of these features (and lack of buttons). Unfortunately, it kind of falls on deaf ears. I think this is why US manufacturers are scared of Chinese EVs. They take a more practical view of the vehicle. Although, I don't actually know how much spying these Chinese vehicles do. It wouldn't be like the Chinese to miss that opportunity.
There's a startup that is making a totally bare bones car called Slate. I really don't understand why every car has an ipad when I just need a place for my phone and it will accomplish the same thing (minus a back up camera which I find completely unnecessary).
In the US, backup cameras are mandated by law as a safety feature. It’s not an “add-on” or perk like some automakers try to imply.
Same with front end collision avoidance cameras/sensors. Those need to be in all cars manufactured for the US market by 2029.
The problem is they have over done it. To add just one little thing you want boosts the price into the range of say a Chevy Bolt, which is a much more polished vehicle. But I do like the look and the idea. The fact that Amazon (or was it just Bezos?) is involved is as little troubling.
Seems hard to justify $25k for Slate (if you add absolutely nothing to it) vs. something from an established automaker for a similar price. For example, I think the Ford Fathom will also ship in 2027 (same year as Slate) for <$30k.
I love Slate, but there's something (perhaps irrational) in my psychology that blocks me from paying $25k for a vehicle with manual-crank windows. I remember what it's like to reach across the cab to awkwardly roll up a window that a passenger left open. I paid <$1k for those old beater vehicles.
I actually agree. I think power mirrors and power windows are very worthwhile.
On the other hand, I don't know why anyone wants a trunk or hatch that closes itself. I find them annoying and unnecessary.
Jeff Bezos is one of their prime investors and is selling you a vehicle that requires you to plug your phone into it directly in order to function.
As cool as the rest of the idea sounds that makes it an instant and permanent non-starter for me.
Less spying is absolutely not why US manufacturers are scared of Chinese EVs, it's cheap labor and long term state backing. I have a bridge to sell to anyone who thinks Chinese EVs aren't spying, hahaha
I’d rather have China spy on me than US corporations or state. I don’t live in China and have no fear that their surveillance will result in a fascist goon at my doorstep.
That's where I'm at. What's China realistically going to do with that data?? If I'm going to be spied on no matter what I'd rather have it be done by a country across the world and get a reasonably priced EV too.
Sell it to the same people that ford and everyone else are, so it can be used to fuck you over on jobs, insurance, etc etc.
Ok but how is that different than the American companies doing that exact same thing?? At least if China gets my data I'll get a reasonably priced EV out of it instead of paying 4-5 times the price for a similar product.
I fucking love how people scream about how vile and evil a thing is, until china does it, then its either "plz leib poor china alone" or its "yes its evil, but i dont care because its cheaper.. but don't worry, as soon as it bites me in the ass i'll come back to cry about it, and will expect sympathy and coddling and not i told you so's"
I fucking love how people misinterpret comments to fit their own made-up narratives in their head.
My data is going to be sold no matter if I buy American or Chinese. It is a bad thing either way. In one scenario im paying $15k for the EV. In the other scenario im paying $30k.
Stop shadow boxing comments to feel good about yourself.
Sure, there's absolutely no way that data from China can end up in the US. Even if offered money, you can trust that no data collector in China would ever accept money in exchange for user data. Also, they're all excellent at keeping it secure, so rest assured it will never get leaked!
Oh yeah if I buy American there's no way my data would get sold. American companies are known for their solid moral compass and they put customer satisfaction over profits. And there's never been a data breach from an American company ever!! :D
And i want to be a good American consumer and pay an American car company 4x to 5x the price of the cheap and affordable Chinese EV. Since I got all this money from tariff rebate and doge checks I can afford to buy an American EV.
Then you're an idiot.
because that information is gonna end up in the same markets as the information from anywhere else, and its going to fuck you over in the long term.
You're too obsessed with government jackboots coming to your door to even consider your car and health insurance premiums skyrocketing at best, or getting dropped at worst, because your driving data was sold to them and they decided you were too much a risk despite a clean driving record.
and thats only a small example of what can be done with this data. it could affect a lot more as companies try to analyze you and your actions and catagorize you. or even better, explode your phone with advertising with every store you're driving past.
I mean, I’d rather not be spied on at all, but at least a Chinese collector has to find an American buyer, whereas the American collector is the American buyer. But I agree with you, mass surveillance is bad no matter who is doing it.
I really doubt needing to find an American buyer is a barrier. Plenty of Chinese companies have become very good at finding American consumers. TikTok and Temu, for examples. (Or Alibaba, as a huge B2B example.)
yeah but I'd rather China spy on me than an actively hostile nation that's a greater threat to me
either way, not buying a car like that
Well... Yes.
I have actually converted an old diesel land rover to electric. NDA so I can't disclose the company, but we replaced the transmission with an electric motor that had an adapter plate to the original transfer case. The engine was replaced with a large battery pack and some electric pumps, handfull of heat exchangers. As you said, converting is never as good. A big heavy pack where the motor was makes it more front heavy than with the diesel 4 cylinder, range was about 120 miles which is pretty piss poor compared to what it could do with the diesel powertrain. It was very cool in theory, but not a practical vehicle. Another company has done a different ev conversion on some of the LR's and they used a Tesla drivetrain if I'm not mistaken, and had to split up the battery pack and spread it across 3 different locations in the vehicle. Purpose built evs are definatley the way for packaging, although repowering classics that only get tooled around here and there to get ice cream or go golfing on the weekend is a neat concept. The weight distribution of the components is just so different from an ice that it necessitates a ground up design. Electric motors are far lighter than ice engines, but they need FAR more weight in battery packs than a tank of fuel for comparable range so u cant exactly just replace the fuel tank with a battery pack and expect it to go far.
why would such work require an nda?
Because the company that "builds" the ev converted vehicle actually just designs and sources parts + the vehicle, our shop is the one that actually built them (at least for the USA based clients). I'm not sure the buyer knows it was done by us or not, I'm sure it doesn't much matter. There's only a handful of companies that offer this so it wouldnt be too hard for u to narrow it down to a couple!
Ah. So it's kind of a secret that they don't do their own work...
Is it just fancy and expensive cars that do this? I have an old hatchback I'd like to convert, but otherwise it would go to the scrapyard.
Not the same guy, but I've been around a DIY conversion. You can do it to any vehicle you want, but some make more sense than others. Assuming your 'old hatchback' is 80s-90s, probably not a great fit. Like he said the whole thing is really a packaging problem, and that's gonna be rough on a unibody compact. Older, bigger stuff is easier, and I probably wouldn't bother with something that wasn't body on frame. The one I observed myself was a 2000-ish Ford Ranger, and that worked out really well. Two large rectangular battery boxes parallel with the driveshaft between the frame rails under the bed, motor in place of engine, controllers etc in extra space under hood. Total cost ~10k, hours hard to guess but a good winter's worth of weekends
Unfortunately the components and labor time make it very cost prohibitive to have somebody do it for you, the only way it makes any financial sense to me is if your capable of doing the conversion yourself. The company we built some evs for only does them for fairly expensive classics so they are not chasing affordability, and for the money u can get a much better ev. With these people ur paying to have a bespoke electrified classic, not necessarily a prectical ev. As the other comment response to you stated a small unibody is very had to convert, and honestly would probably makes more sense to put a more efficient ice engine in. Fwd cars usually have low floor pans so nowhere to put batteries besides in place of the fuel tank or in the engine bay. Then you need to consider how the wheels will get powered, and you start getting into custom machined parts and the cost starts to jump. This is one of those things where it's a lot easier if somebody has already done it, if your the first on a specific platform your going to have to design ur own systems and parts to make it possible. For example your fwd hatchback doesn't have a transfer case we can make an adapter plate for and bolt an electric motor to, and most small case fwd transaxles can't handle the torque of an electric motor so just bolting it to the transmission may not work or last long. It can get pretty complicated pretty quick, not that internal combustion engines necessarily simpler, but the ecosystem they need is already in the car and the cars already been designed around it. Ev drivetrains are also pretty heavy so starting with a small light car is difficult, roll center and center of gravity will be affected, weight added. It may snowball into needing stiffer suspension, larger brakes etc and the car certainly won't drive the way it did before. Hate to say it but the cost of a custom converversion is likely going to be more than the cost of a slate truck or something lol.
For the laughs, look up Ford Fusion Energi [sic]. It's a PHEV retrofit, so it has a plug, very short EV range (12 miles? - that is if you can make it run in EV mode), but the best part is the trunk - the entirety of it is taken up by the battery, with enough space for maybe a briefcase, not even a bag of groceries.
Show me a single non-EV car for sale that doesn't raise all the same objections
Why should I buy a non-electric car? I think my question got misunderstood.
Their point is that you are just nostalgic for old cars, simpler cars. All modern cars are overcomplicated, EV or not
yes, but a lot of that overcomplication is for safety at least.
you're much more likely to survive a big car crash in a car from today, then are you are from a car 60 years ago.
Also less likely to lose traction on wet roads and skid off than you were half a century ago.
that isnt meant to say everythings sunshine and roses, like all that equipment that enables spyware bullshit they gather on you and sell to insurance companies and marketers.
the problem is the cars have stopped being a product, and have become a medium to turn you into the product. Which is becoming a problem across many industries and the items they wish you to own.
Better crumple zones and airbags are most of the advances in safety compared to 60 years ago. Traction control and anti-lock brakes are pretty rad too. Automatic braking and lane assist account for some though I think they're a net detriment, training drivers to be less attentive (this is somewhat supported by the rise in pedestrian deaths).
All the spyware and extra shit is pure downside. Mandatory internal face tracking is fucking maddening and I shan't be cooperating with such overreach. Nothing newer than like 2014, maybe an import from a different market without them.
I think it's a salient point: It's not just EVs. The entire industry has gone whole-hog on the "rolling data center" model.
As to "why" from your post title...well, I assumed it was a rhetorical question to introduce a (short) rant about the sad state of the automobile market.
no reason! I had a 2017 BMW i3 for five years and now going on five years with a 2022 Taycan wagon, I'm all for BEVs!
It's just that no new cars, regardless of powertrain, are available without the "smart" shit
you're starting too far down the line
most vehicles nowadays are gimmicks
the real question is why can't we get a simple economical vehicle and not unrepairable subcription-based spyware on wheels with dangerous features, regardless of engine type
You're starting too far down the line.
Most products and services nowadays are gimmicks.
The real question is why can't we get a simple good product and not inequitable take-it-or-leave it bullshit with delusional prices, regardless of where.
I mean when it comes to price it's because the US banned chinese car companies. If BYD was allowed to sell here it would destroy these overpriced domestic manufacturers. They're still annoyingly "smart" but they're atleast not expensive as all hell.
Chinese companies are exporting basic EVs like you're talking about that sell for like $15k. Sadly if you're American you can't buy one because Freedom!!!
They sell for $15k in China, but you can't compare those prices. Canada and Australia have allowed Chinese EV imports, nothing is below $40K in Canada, Australia has the BYD Atto, at $20k, but it's a cheaply built car, likely disposable.
The BYD small EVs all have good safety ratings and they have been around for a while, so I don't know why you think they are disposable
You're right, the foreign prices are higher because of tariffs and other govt fees, shipping, storage, etc. and markups added by dealers because they can. But the end prices tend to be 25-30% less than other EVs with similar basic specs (minus frills).
I have a BYD dolphin and it's great!
There aren't no nonsense gas powered cars anymore. Everything is computer controlled.
Anti lock brakes, collision avoidance, controlling the fuel injections. You have to go back to the models that used carburetors to get what you want. Then the federal goverment requires tons of expensive safety equipment and testing to keep new companies from entering the market.
But to answer the question, profits. The production line for low price gas cars are already built and optimized with statistical process control. There aren't high profits in the low priced autos. They will only switch when nobody buys their current models.
Just look at the big three turning their nose up to electric.
Meanwhile Hyundai is rolling out a super cheap model in china. https://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/hyundais-new-ioniq-v-undercuts-the-cheapest-ev-in-america-by-over-10000/
FYI: Companies are getting your message and vibe. But so far it's just for farm tractors.
https://wheelfront.com/this-alberta-startup-sells-no-tech-tractors-for-half-price/
I don't think OP is referring to any of that. More so the infotainments systems, touch controlled dashboards etc.
Idk, just because a car doesn't have a touchscreen doesn't mean the computers aren't tracking you. Anything with ADAS (advanced driver assistance systems) is going to phone home, and vehicles are required to have a lot of the systems now.
For sure, but blaming that on computers in general is a bit dumb
All that can be disabled in some cars, i.e. Kia.
Some guys coffee maker was sending a terabyte of data back to the office, you think turning off the systems stops them from tracking you?
ABS has saved thousands of lives. Fuel injection has saved billions of dollars in gas.
My issue is that a lot of manufacturers have tried, incorrectly, to mimic Tesla in ways they don't understand.
Tesla have a 16" screen in their car.
Ford: We put a 17" screen in our car!
Tesla: You can watch movies, play video games, browse the internet, etc. when you're charging (as it used to take a long time - but we've kept the big screen).
Ford: You've got a bit ole screen! It's bigger than a Tesla's! Your driving map is huuuge. When you're charging you can watch it charge - in HD!
Buttons and dials are coming back, at least.
Not sure where I read it, but the story goes that loads of manufacturers used touch screen controls "because Tesla" but Tesla didn't do it because it was cool and fancy, they did it because it's cheaper. Spinning up entire supply lines to get plastic buttons and switches just wasn't feasible for them in the startup days.
It's literally the opposite of premium.
Not everywhere. BMW stupidly are nixing more controls in favor of touch bullshit.
And that stupid tablet in the middle design seems to only ever quicken its pace.
Literally no one does that. Where does Lemmy get their engineering expertise from?
I can say coming from a Tasla in 2018 to Polestar, and then a bunch of various EV rentals while that was being "repaired" (and ultimately returned as a lemon)... To ending up with a Honda Prologue (actually a GM)...
None of the legacy automakers have any idea what to do with EVs, and they aren't even trying to figure it out. They always just take the ICR out, stick a generic EV powertrain in and basically call it a day.
No attempt to take advantage of the fact they have power always available. Still keeping the engine Start/Stop button despite there being no reason for it. Requiring lock/unlock buttons on the exterior handles despite the car already knowing whether you're in proximity via the fob, to let those buttons do anything in the first place.
And the complete lack of things like YouTube/Netflix, etc. when needing to charge at public chargers on long trips in more remote areas with limited infrastructure.
They could just copy Tesla and no one would complain, because the product would actually be good. As it is currently, all of the legacy US manufacturers fucking suck. The only ones that seem to have figured it out are the new players that haven't had the same Boomers running the show for the last century.
This is my experience as well. I think it's arrogance to a degree "we've been making cars for 140 years, we know how do it" - and then they fail miserably.
It's all cars. It's more profitable to sell fewer cars at a higher price. The tech bloat is used to justify the high price. Regulations requiring the tech bloat are designed to keep competitors from entering the market. Regulations are paid for by
bribeslobbying.Mostly because they can. You really need to have everything automated anyway, you need at least a backup screen, so you might as well put it on that screen. It’s probably cheaper at that point to control everything by screen than to do install buttons
There’s still some hope
I have never bought a new car and never had any intention to because of how bad of an investment they are. If slate comes through with half the features they've announced, then I'll be buying one after my 2013 Subaru Outback gives out. I play music and do lots of small rural work just outside of the city. A small truck for hauling would be perfect! I don't want a Superlift Mega Child Crusher x4500 with double crew cab, a bed 7ft off the ground and only 34 inches long, but hey, at least it has 15,000 pounds of towing capacity for when I am hauling my drum set across town or need to take plywood to my mom's house.
I’ve spent the last year teasing my older brother for buying a full sized truck, now that he no longer has a house or property. Joke is on me though, he just bought a huge camper to tow with it. I guess he does have use, at least a couple days of the year
my third gen Outback isn't worth anything, so it's becoming my truck
can haul 8ft lengths of material inside the vehicle
can haul 16ft lengths of material with only 5ft of stick out
can tow a utility trailer
has ground clearance and AWD for rough terrain
only drawback is it's got a low ceiling, affecting cargo height. but that's also an inherent feature of a wagon, and why I don't like newer Outbacks that aren't wagons
I've looked at small trucks like an old Ford/Mazda Ranger in the past, but it doesn't make sense for me - I'd rather have the rear seats for the dogs and enclosed space connected to the cabin than a bed topper
I'm usually just driving myself and my son. It's pretty uncommon that I need to move 3 or more people, and if I do, I can almost certainly borrow a car, so no loss there.
The ceiling height and no ability to "hang stuff over the side" - for lack of a better term - are both issues for me as well. It's solved easily enough with a small trailer that I can pull with a hitch I had put on, but it is annoying to deal with.
I'm trying to avoid the danger of "oh! But sometimes" that the YouTuber "Tech Connections" talks about in some videos, but I think I've discovered a small 2 seater truck would fit me better than anything else. A kei truck could be a good fit for me as well, but I don't know a whole lot about any specific model.
I love my small steel trailer. it's light enough that I can move it by hand, so I don't need to mess around with trying to back up my long wagon with a short trailer behind me into my driveway or into awkward spaces. just unhitch and push it where I need it to go. super easy to park next to my driveway as well, without needing to drive on my lawn. I think it's actually easier to hook up my trailer than it is to put my bike rack on the hitch lol, because I have my bike rack hanging awkwardly at the back of the garage in a tough to reach spot
although to be honest I do wish it were aluminum so I didn't have to worry about rust
This is like the System 76 of cars.
My family has a 2019 Nissan leaf and the infotainment center feels like it's from 2012, so I wouldn't say it feels like a smartphone.
I think that’s part of the reason BYD does so well in Australia.
Their cars look like normal cars.
We're about to get BYD cars in Canada, they're half the price of anything else on the market. If they can resist our winters and evil road salt I'm totally game for one to replace my gas-guzzler.
Not really, unless you mean giant SUVs. Where are the regular cars and hatchbacks? I hate this constant bigger and bigger vehicles nonsense that just puts people at risk.
Do you mean by this that Canada isn’t getting a range of cars, just the larger 4WD utes and SUV style car?
Today's larger cars are actually safer... but for their occupants only. In a sea of trucks and giant SUVs it's a little scary so everyone wants a big car. Even small cars are big now, look at a Fiat 500!
Not necessarily true. Bigger car doesn't necessarily mean a safer car. It's complicated and SUVs have made car accidents more dangerous because they are heavier and are much more likely to flip compared to a car with a low centre of gravity. They also are far more dangerous AGAINST sedans and hatchbacks due to the mass difference
https://www.drive.com.au/caradvice/are-suvs-safer-than-smaller-cars/
Here's an article that looks at some of the research.
SUVs do provide perceived safety because drivers are higher up and in a bigger car but that's not valuable whatsover in an accident.
I don't know about the rest of the world but in Australia SUVs were treated with less restrictive emissions standards as sedans or hatchbacks so car companies pushed them very hard, some fleets completely removing sedans and hatchbacks from their line up and replacing them with Compact SUVs.
I'm pretty certain most of the SUV craze is just very effective marketing.
Same is true in US and Canada, trucks are loopholed for safety to save production costs.
Small cars have all but disappeared from the market, even a Civic is HUGE compared to a Civic from 20 years ago... but it's also a lot safer (check the crash tests between similar vehicles from the 1990s and contemporary ones).
I'm in Canada and for winter driving up north you definitely want a larger vehicle with decent ground clearance.
Incorrect, large SUVs are legally trucks and have less crash protection. Larger vehicles also get into more crashes because of longer stopping distances, poor handling, tendency to flip, and sliding off roads easier in winter.
F150 and Silverado are the two most commonly crashed vehicles.
They're also the most common vehicles on US roads.
The price is part of it here, but it’s a lot more than that.
Home owners here strongly lean towards solar installations at home, backed by either a battery installed in the garage or an EV. Some renters take part in this as well, if they have solar. This prevents power loss during blackout plus save a fortune in fuel costs.
So the car is part of the entire home energy equation, plus cheap transport. This is important here for many because as you are probably aware there can be some distance to travel even in urban areas; it’s not uncommon for a commuter to drive 4 or so k to a train station then catch it into town for work, for one example. That person would be all over a BYD Atto for under 20k
Incorrect. They are only importing the expensive models and no prices have even been announced.
The whole of China can only import 50,000 cars in a market of 2 million sales a year.
I'm not sure I'd want a BYD either...
Yeah I will admit it’s a problem, and it’s my complaint as well
Many aren’t going to look twice though
Be nice if we could access a choice of EVs without all this crap. That said it isn’t confined to the chinese makes either, they’re all doing it
Every single new car is a connected car. If your data is going to be collected, I’d rather have it collected by China than Palantir.
I'd rather neither collect my data, but in this case it's worse than that.
There’s no mention of how it’s possible to do this with other cars. This just reads as an anti-China anti-BYD hit piece to me.
Possible, but I've seen a general trend of Chinese websites, companies, etc. that serve a domestic audience having no or very basic cybersecurity because China is a very high-trust society. Then they go global with that attitude and get pwned.
The cheapest car in australia is a byd. It's like 20k. Like it is cheapest out of all ice and electric cars
Yes and it’s really hard for the right people not to look favourably at it
We’re in a pretty good space with it all tbh…the only issue we have of course is making both EVs and solar more accessible to more people.
It's because they are cheap.
Yeah that too
Cars getting more expensive is in all car companies' interests.
They're getting cheaper actually. The gigantic touchscreen is cheaper than a bespoke interior design with physical buttons for every model.
Of course that's not reflected in the price
cheaper for the car maker, not for the end consumer.
That's one part of the system.
The trick is to drive a 20 year old car. I've got zero interest in new cars - I wouldn't want one even for free. Every time I have to drive one I get extremely frustrated by all the pointless features that I have no use for and are just acting as a distraction. Hell, I almost hit a cyclist once because the car wouldn't let me cross the centre line.
The day my truck dies I'll just buy another identical one and keep the old one as parts truck. It has everything I need and nothing I don't.. ..except automatic wipers.
I drive an Opel Corsa E. It's basically just a normal Opel Corsa with an electric engine.
Or is that not what you had in mind?
I owned an Opel Corsa once. I don't ever want to get reminded again.
I was hit by an Opel Corsa once, it hurt like hell but I killed the car.
Are you a deer
Not anymore!
Lmfao I got a real good chuckle out of that
It's got that "one easy trick/for a limited time only" energy
Happy reddit can fuck off day
They do. Or least they sometimes do. I drive a Kia Soul EV. It’s… a Kia Soul with an electric motor and battery instead of all the internal combustion stuff.
KIA is one of the worst offenders regarding continuous surveillance and then selling the data to third parties.
A tip for others:
You lost me at "App" I would rather ride a pedal bike than drive a car that has a fucking app.
Haven't souls been discontinued?
Yeah. I was merely noting that there’s a precedent for “normal-car-but-with-EV-stuff-instead.” It’s a shame that the Soul EV was given such a limited distribution. It’s easily my favorite car I’ve ever owned.
Welcome to Car Industry Protectionism 101.
You want a no nonsense electric car at an affordable price point? Tough shit. Your country's politicians love those car industry kick backs.
My FIL has a 2021 Smart ForFour EV that's as barebones as it gets. No screen, buttons and knobs for the climate control, popout rear windows AND an actual key you have to put into an actual hole.
It also looks like manufacturers are catching on and making EVs for normal people. Renault. Kia and Hyundai all have nice selections plus some of the Chinese models from Leap and BYD.
So it's definitely getting better on the EV front.
A ford lightning is almost identical to a f-150.
Shame they discontinued it.
Yeah, the Silverado EV is pretty similar. Shame it costs an insane amount of cash.
Maybe no one really wants a 9,000 pound truck, nor to pay for a battery 2-3x the size of car batteries. Not only does the battery add a huge cost but they had to know there would never be any volume …. And that’s across all three Silverado, Hummer and whatever the gmc badge is
I would buy one if I were in a position for a new vehicle. I drive a combustion Silverado for hauling metal, but it's just now being paid off. Once I run it into the ground I world love to have an EV equivalent. It has a ton of range and the Silverado actually have a volume knob lol. But I'd very much like to avoid spending $100k, having a car payment for the last 6 years wasn't great 😕
Yeah it’s hard to believe spending that much on a vehicle. I mean, sure there are wealthy people but most of us arent
The Lightning really needed to be an HEV. Enough battery to move the truck around 100 miles per day for commuting, but switch to gas when hauling. It would have significantly reduced the need for the giant battery, and therefore reduce cost for the customer
No one bought them. They had to dump them with heavy discounts.
Because 99% of car buyers want gimmicks. I'm driving a 2014 with manual trans, manual windows, and no cruise control.
What market exists for this?
I'm curious. What car made in 2014 has manual windows? I have a 1988 Corolla and it has power windows.
Lol behold:
Wow. So it does exist. I'm more surprised about the manual transmission than the windows, to be honest. My wife and I both only drive two door manuals.
My man, same 🤝
Kia Rio, BMW coupe, 350Z --> all manual
1988 Toyota Corolla GTS, 1999 Toyota Solara V6 SE, 2003 Toyota MR2 Spyder (just sold it after 20 years), 2020 Hyundai Velocter N (technically a 3 door, but it looks like two from the driver's side, LOL.
Not a Toyota fan boy, just coincidence.
All excellent choices.
Have you driven an Elantra N? Such a good car.
No, but I love the Veloster. Despite it's performance, it's quite practical, being a hatchback.
Because cars, and especially evs, are units of luxury. Luxury don't have to be reasonable or convenient - au contraire many luxurious items were made inconvenient on purpose.
Automakers just don't build cheap, reliable, serviceable cars.
Elon Musk started a grift in 2012 that EVs should be expensive. To try and add value to what is a less expensive car to produce, he added a plethora of gimmickry and US consumers love gadgetry. By 2022, battery prices plunged 90% and Teslas were the highest profit margin vehicles in the industry.
Detroit watched all this and decided to to the same thing, but Detroit had too many "luxury" models and after pandemic gouging, customers kept away. No one bought their EVs. Stellantis lost $80B in value and has 430,000 unsold cars sitting on lots right now, rotting.
This all pushed customers to Korean brands, as Detroit decided they had no interest in affordability. Boom times for Honda, Kia/Hyundai and Toyota.
I can't believe I'm about to defend Elon Musk.
Prior to Tesla, the very few EVs that existed were dopey-looking and had no range. Tesla's founders (not Elon) realized that lithium battery technology made an actually-good EV possible. They made the Roadster, which was expensive and impressively fast but barebones. Elon horned his way in and took the company on this strategy path: sell that expensive car to create and sell a more mass-market, slightly less expensive car. Then use the money from that car to make an even cheaper mass-market car. That was the Model S/X, and then the Model 3/Y, respectively. It wasn't that this fancy shit was some sham to trick people, it was what a small barely-funded company had to do. It worked out pretty well until they lost the plot a few years ago.
Making a software-defined car does have its benefits too: adding functionality, detecting issues before you get stranded by a breakdown, an improved infotainment experience. You can argue about the merits of those, but realize that the whole industry does this now - for better or worse. But to say that Tesla tricked people into wasting their money on gee-whiz tech is a dishonest representation of EV history.
This plunge in battery prices happened specifically because of Tesla making EVs mass-market.
Legacy auto fumbling the EV transition is due entirely to their hubris and incompetence.
That being said, Elon Musk is a Nazi just like Henry Ford before him.
Just to nitpick, the gull-wing doors on the Model X were neither cheap nor practical. They were a really dumb expensive idea
Agree. But I think my point is still legit.
Well, yeah. There's a reason I didn't critique anything else
At least in the silicon valley I think they got a jump from the "cool" factor over everything else that could use the HOV lane. A good friend of mine was working for a company and the SVP had I think a Bentley and a top of the line 911 but drove a Prius to work every day purely to use the HOV lane. That type of person was more than happy to buy a 6 figure S to ditch his Prius...
Because the modern electric car is from an era where laws mandate technology in cars that can surveil the occupants and shutdown the vehicle.
You can swap electric drivetrains into existing cars. Companies such as Felten offer kits for classic Mini's, Porsche's, Defender's. This is likely your best bet.
If emissions is your concern rather than other aspects that electric cars can deliver then look into retrofitting an ICE engine with a thunderstorm generator
Once you understand how cheap the components (battery, electric motors, some servos, some steel, a LOT of plastic...
If they don't make them fabulous the fabulous people won't buy them. As it is some wide track golf cart/pickup trucks would be far superior than any of the sleek stuff turned out. Better "volt" mileage too.
The batteries aren't cheap. That's still the expensive part of an EV, even though it's nowhere near as expensive as it used to be.
But overall, the same issue plagues all new cars. There have been very few great innovations in the last decade or so, so now they just have to cram more techy tech into cars to get people to buy a new one. I mean no real innovations aside from the electrification itself of course.
Go look at high-end cars in 2016. Carplay/Android Auto was already a thing, though optional in most cars, and not available in all yet. Safety features like automatic braking, adaptive cruise, lane keep assist were already available. Massage seats were old news. There was just nothing new to add to a car to differentiate it from others. Tesla had just come along a few years ago with a slick UI and over the air updates, and people were blown away with it. What do you do? You start imitating the success of Tesla, going too far (too much tech) instead of integrating only the good things (actually responsive screen, for example).
Hell, I maintain that you can get 90% of what you'd ever want from a car, if you're willing to own ICE, from a well-equipped 2005-2013 Mercedes S-Class by upgrading it with a AA/Carplay module. There's little in its 2014-2020 successor that makes it truly a better car - only a slightly nicer infotainment system, better transmission (even that only in the facelift) and different (some better, some worse) engine options. So in 2020, with the new model, they went crazy with screens, making the interior actually uglier than the old ones. The electric equivalent, EQS, was even more screen-focused, only because it came out a year or 2 later, not because it's electric.
Once we get to cheaper cars, however, it's even harder to add any real new innovations. MB's Magic body control (camera controlled hydraulic suspension that knows when to soften up for a pothole) is super expensive. 4 wheel steering is expensive. A large touchscreen is not expensive. A sim card for online services is not expensive.
2012 wants it's comment back.
A 50kwhr pack now costs $4000 and dropping.
These definitely exist. They are typically referred to as 'compliance cars' - i.e. the manufacturer is obligated, usually by regulations, to produce an EV, but they don't want to spend money designing a new platform for it - so they take an existing model, rip out the engine, cram a motor and batteries wherever they will fit and call it good. Examples: Volkswagen eGolf, Fiat 500e, Mercedes B Class EV. Ford Focus Electric...
However, doing this means you are constrained to the shape of the combustion vehicle it is based on. So the aerodynamics may not be optimal to get the best range, you may have a transmission tunnel taking up space in the interior that is no longer necessary, directly swapping the position of the engine and the motor/inverter means you lose the opportunity to repurpose the front of the car for additional storage - ultimately it ends up compromised in one way or another.
If on the other hand you design the platform from the ground up to handle an electric drivetrain then all of these points can be taken into account.
(And regarding cars in general becoming rolling computers: this is not an EV specific issue, unfortunately.)
Others mentioned it too, but a nissan leaf is as basic a car as it gets. There used to be many of them on the roads. I guess people who can afford having a car with a limited range that can only be charged in a facility or a garage (which excludes long range commuters and apartment dwellers), want to get a truck or a cool car with gimmicks, not a basic car.
It was basic, newest gen Leafs are full of gimmicks, because buyers love gimmicks.
So three issues.
An ICE drivetrain is a certain size and shape- you have a big lump of engine under the hood, a fat cigar of a transmission under the center of the car, a gas tank in the back, etc.
An EV drivetrain has a VERY DIFFERENT size and shape- the entire battery and drive system is essentially a skateboard on top of which you can build the rest of the car.
So you can't just take an ICE car and swap out the ICE for batteries and motor. The whole car needs a redesign. And if you're making the car for modern, tech-savvy buyers, why would you make a boring old low-tech car?
Second- EVERY car is turning into a rolling datacenter like a smartphone. Try to buy a base model car with no screen and manual windows or whatever- it doesn't exist anymore in many brands. Automakers go for the high profit items, and that's NOT the base models.
Third- a lot of the tech is now mandatory. Backup cameras, and soon driver attention monitoring among other things.
Sad thing is- I think there's a demand for it, if the price is right. If getting rid of most of the tech dropped $10-20k off the sticker price I think whoever tried it would sell millions. I'm not sure you're allowed to anymore though.
Seems like Slate can get by with everything removed but airbags. And the price is right.
Starting at $25k, it's really not a great price :/. Seems like it'll be hard to compete with options like the Ford Fathom. EVs aren't as expensive as they used to be.
I love the Slate, and I hope to own one someday, but I'd probably shop for one that's a few years old.
I was super interested in the Slate until I realized it can't tow shit. I don't need anything crazy. An old S10 tows plenty for me. But not being able to tow a thing and being a truck is just a no go for me.
If the Fathom is 20k but has all the spyware we've come to expect from major manufacturers, I'd still buy the Slate. It annoys me that Bezos is involved, but I'd swallow that for some privacy in a new vehicle.
Yeah that's understandable. I pay more for auto insurance because I don't give them my data, so I get that. Hopefully this niche market will be big enough for Slate to survive.
Because the overlords want data. So data collection must be in everything because top dollar is being paid for it.
I find the Opel Corsa Electric and Renault Zoe to be pretty alright, regarding knobs and buttons. They still are very much tablets with wheels though.
While I hate the dimensions, shape and pretty much everything else about it, I belive the Citroën e-C3 is available with just a phone mount in the center, and no smarts whatsoever. I've only ever driven the model with an infotainment system though.
Driving a kia e-niro. There's nothing gimmicky about it except for the melody that plays when you start the car. Everything else is pretty much down to earth regular car stuff. And with a price below 40k, in 2021, I think it wasn't even that expensive for a EV.
EV have hit 25k now. I think to hit 15k they'll be throwing out these gimmicks with gusto. Gimmicks are to show off the price
You should check Chevy's lineup. They're pretty ok, the truck is expensive, but what truck isn't?
Does the word “car” mean something different in the USA?
"Car" in America is any passenger vehicle, it seems.
Yes, I should have been more specific. So many trucks and mini-vans in the answers.
Sadly, yes.
the upcoming slate.
genuinely so hyped for this
After growing up with one, I’d rather walk blindfolded on a freeway than drive a Chevy.
Well, there were attempt of this like VW e-golf for example. Not really a terrible car, but due to limited battery space and EV knowledge at the time its range was abysmal (like 100 miles), charging speed was atrocious and it still cost way more than ICE variant. It's a pretty good car for city commute, but nothing more as highway speed range is even worse due to power draw...
So, it's not enough to take ICE and do simple "conversion". But I'm all for dumber EVs!
In the past the marketers were likely convinced that EV drivers wanted something different, that looked different, that everyone would see as different, that would stick out. Because why else would you possibly want an EV?!? It's obviously because you want to stick out. It's called product differentiation and the product developers are all over it. Nowadays it's also like that but along a different wave, now you have to differentiate with more screens! More gadgets! Have to differentiate from normal cars or why else would anyone buy from us instead of them! It's funny one business podcast I listen to says of Tesla "they haven't updated it in years! It feels old! It's a failure!" They feel the need to one up every time and differentiate and now we can't just buy a normal car.
You can buy Hyundai, Renault, BMW, VW. .. all pretty good "normal" electric cars.
With switches and knobs? Without a touch screen?
How many ICE cars can you do that with? It’s an industry problem, not a power train problem
I don't know so many details, sorry
They couldn’t build them fast enough if there were, they would run out of batteries.
People buying cheap basic cars aren’t going to pay extra for it, or mess around with putting in L2 charging at home.
Why make 2 budget EVs and make $5k each when you can make 1 expensive one and make $10k?
If you drive a normal less than an hour commute to work, you may not need L2 for normal every day charging. Of course it is nice, but you could always get the car first and put in L2 at a later date or never.
Dacia Spring ?
Dacia is usually pretty much bare bones
When i was looking for a replacement for my last car, i was aiming at an EV. Market hat nothing even close to my needs. Had to buy a conventional car instead. Get me something similar to my seat alhambra, but electric and at a realistic price, an i'll have my next car.
What ICE car did you buy that fit your desire?
As I wrote, a SEAT Alhambra. It gives me both the option to move up to 7 people (although the maximum I move is 6), or move 2 cubic meters of stuff. And it is no monster truck, but still a car fit for European cities. The capability to pull a trailer is there, too, but I have not used it, yet.
I firmly believe, at least in the US, but it's probably true for the rest of the world as well, that as soon as somewhat crackdowns on what is allowed to be gathered for data is done, that a model or two after that you will start seeing significantly less smart features in vehicles and it will only be more convenience and safety items, I believe personally that a lot of our infotainment system style designs will go away because the primary reason for running those style designs is to allow for data collection.
And that's because there's a lot of money in data collection. Be it law enforcement buying it for location data on someone or the onstar wanting it for analytics of where cars are going or how they're being used to insurance agencies wanting to know how often an individual goes over the speed limit.
It's also incredibly useful even for the first party and knowing what features are used the most in the vehicle for research and development.
But yeah, once the financial incentive is significantly neutered, I believe you will fairly quickly see a lot of these features becoming optional add-ons or no longer offered period
I hope I'm just cynical, but that seems like a mighty big if right there
In ICE cars the base models/brands are no nonsense and you get more of gimmicks as you move up the pricelist. EVs start much higher on the pricelist so they have to include some gimmicks by default to not feel a total ripoff.
In Europe Volkswagen has 3 brands that sell cars built on same platform but they are positioned in three market segments. This made sense for ICE because pricing and features progression worked while parts were shared. Now their EV lineup cost basically the same across all brands because the baseline is so high.
What frustrates me most about my wife’s Kona is that the shift stick is gone & you have to use buttons. That & how confusing it was to figure out how to open the charging unit when she first got it.
God forbid you read the manual.
Hilarious. That’s the point.
I have Seat Mii electric, it is dumb as a rock. I love it.
there are dozens of ev cars which are simply converted from antique ones Oo
Toyota BZ. There's a touchscreen in the center of course, but it's amazingly low tech otherwise. The turn signals and other lights on the dash are literally incandescent light bulbs behind an arrow shaped hole (like all cars had in the 90's).
We have the Subaru variant. It’s not low tech enough. The dash is awful and the infotainment could be better.
People want even cheaper tech. It’s possible, the Corolla hybrid was a good example that was ahead of its time. That ford escape hybrid was close too. A lot of hybrids get this right now that I think about it.
The slate is going to be the first real contender in this space. I hope it does well.
The Prius Hybrid was first available in 1997.
The Slate will be an example of the difference between what people say they will buy, and what they actually buy. Lemmy is obsessed with insisting car companies make cars so no one will buy them.
What the Escape may have hidden from its cabin interior it amplified in its power train for tech complexity (and cost to repair!). A very common failure on the Escape Hybrid was its ABS/HCU (Anti-Lock Brake System/Hydraulic Control Unit). The cost for this one part is $5500. I suppose that might be fine if it rarely failed, but that wasn't the case. It failed often and just the cost of that part could economically total the vehicle.
If people are dumb enough to buy Fords, they deserve every bill they get.
See the new Broncos...complete garbage.
I find it ironic all this whining about computers and privacy is taking place on the internet where every keystroke is recorded.
The smartphone like gadgets and flash are not built to drive and live with every day.
Those features exist for the salesperson to dazzle you with. Some people see a large LCD or shiny wheels and their lizard brain takes over.
In the home electronics store I nearly asked if they had any TVs that weren’t smart, nearly.
The first company that is able to commodify modular drop-in BEV replacements for ICE vehicles would make a fortune:
Battery packs shaped to slot into engine bays, transmission tunnels and fuel tank cavities.
Individual motors directly into your preferred wheel wells (FWD? RWD? AWD? 4WD? whatever you like).
Drop-in ECU to interface with the existing chassis.
The sort of thing that someone mechanically minded could knock out in their own garage over a weekend or two, or you could get done at a professional shop in a day.
Imagine taking your favourite silhouette, and giving it exactly the range and performance you desire - at the fraction of the cost of a new EV.
There are plenty of places you can do a conversion of older cars to electric. Universal drop in conversions are close to impossible, though, since every manufacturer has its own proprietary footprint that they change every few years.
Maybe if you're thinking about a 1957 Buick Special, then yeah. That's a frame, driveline, seats, and a radio. ICE vehicles since the late 00s have been smart devices that phone home.z
I think the answer to your question is that it's more profitable to sell a vehicle that continues to generate value by collecting and sending data home which can be sold.
Bullshit. I have two 2017 vehicles with zero connectivity.
Bullshit is pretty strong language, I have a 2015 that phones.
There's one in Mexico
That's not a car, it's a quadricycle. 25 mph top speed, no safety at all.
Fiat is selling this now in USA. Basically a large mobility scooter for boomers to drive around their gated communities.
This has been tried e.g. e-Golf, Coda but turns out it is not a good way to build an EV. Specifically designed EV platforms (like MEB) won out.
So you acknowledge it doesnt offer value equivalent to what you paid?
old man shakes fist at cloud?
The gimmick on wheels
I test drove quite many models when Musk did the hitler salute thing to get rid of it, and my conclusion was that the rest were even more gimmicky. Hyundais were close, but unfortunately I need the boot space their models didn't provide.
lacks physical controls
blinding LED headlights
spyware
yeah, that's totally what we're looking for