I think it's actually more appropriate to say that Europe is way further North than most people think based on its climate and such.
The only reason north west Europe's climate isn't more like Canada's is because the Gulf Stream and AMOC drag heat up North from the Southern hemisphere.
Tbf, "global warming" is a myth. Well, more of a misnomer
It's neither of those things though.
It is a true and accurate description of the impact our actions are having on the planet. It is getting measurably warmer and faster even than the scientific models predicted when Inconvenient truth came out
The problem is that on an individual, day to day, experience, the "warming" is barely perceivable. Sometimes you'll get record lows and other times record highs.
Climate change is probably a better term for it, because we are changing the climate, and that involves more than just warming (see ocean acidification). But the global average temperature is still increasing/warming.
Sorry for the pedantry. I realise you probably knew a lot/all of that, I've just seen too many bad faith actors in the realm of online climate change/global warming discussion.
Hey, no worries. My comment was not meant to be dismissive or fuel for climate change denial, more just a silly joke. I agree with you completely across the board. Honestly, over explaining in a context that can potentially be taken either way like my comment is completely understandable and welcome. Pedant away :)
Not in this discussion, since Canada and Europe are both in roughly the same latitude on the Northern Hemisphere and thus tilted by the same amount relative to the poles.
Not yet. Global warming melting Greenland ice sheets is likely to cause the AMOC to slow / collapse, ending Europe’s temperate climate. This is possible within your lifetime.
Just to add some explanation on this for those who don't know:
The AMOC, which is a massive circular oceanic current in the Atlantic, passes in a South-North direction at the surface near Europe, bringing warm water from Africa, which helps make Europe warmer (especially near the Atlantic) than it would otherwise be.
Hence why it slowing down or even stopping would end Europe's temperate climate.
Just to add even more explanation on top of yours: "AMOC" is the fancy science-y name for what is more popularly known as the Gulf Stream, plus the rest of the currents that form a loop with it.
From what I remember last time I read up on this, in conjunction with global warming, there is roughly a line from Paris to Frankfurt where more north than that, temperatures cool down because of AMOC collapse, and south of that temperatures are higher than pre-industrial because global warming outweighs AMOC collapse cooling.
But of course those are just relatively rough projections, and it's average temperature, the extremes will still be way worse. So it's not like Frankfurt will have peachy weather while the rest of the world goes to shit.
Ya, exactly this. I used to live in Tromso, Norway. It's roughly the same latitude as the north coast of Alaska. I remember -12c being a cold day in winter. That's insane for that far north. Anywhere else at the latitude experiences -40c regularly.
I have always felt the opposite. Europe is way further north than I would have expected given their climate. I realize now it is kept warm by the gulf steam and North America get that in reverse, hence really cold eastern Canada and New England.
No reverse. New England and eastern Canada are warmed by the same currents too, albeit not as much. The heat generally comes from the Caribbean. North Korea and Hokkaido have far colder winters and milder summers at similar latitude.
I believe you actually have it backwards. Europe is warmed by the gulf steam, it cools off on the way back to Canada and the US. If the Gulf Steam is disrupted as predicted, the UK is going to be in for a really cold time.
this is where i got the claim from, that NE USA and E Canada would also cool down with no AMOC. (the sea-level rise in that region would be an even bigger problem though)
I think you may be misreading the map from that link a bit because it is fairly low detail and doesn't point out the landmarks very well. The "gyre" as it is referred to in the linked page doesn't really reach the northeast US much at all, it mostly stops at around the area between NC and VA where the coast protrudes. If you want to see a cool image based on satellite data that shows it off, check this out (https://www.earthdata.nasa.gov/news/worldview-image-archive/gulf-stream). That being said, some of that warm water does still affect a the NE US a bit (not so much for Canada), so the gulf stream faltering will make it colder, just not as dramatically as places like the UK which based on latitude would likely have temperatures closer to Sweden and Norway.
Your comment six hours ago had a claim that eastern Canada and New England were cooled by the amoc. I think that was the only thing the other poster was going against. Your recent comment now agrees that eastern Canada and New England would be colder without the amoc.
It wasn't clear at all that was all that other commenter disagreed with. Also Eastern Canada and New Edgland are cooled by it. It isn't as much of an effect because the cold water sink, but it most certainly affects it.
Well, and it's crazy how cold the middle and eastern parts of North America get.
Boston and Chicago are famously cold cities. Chicago is exactly parallel with Rome; Boston is only 50km north of Rome. Rome, Barcelona, even Tblisi - all about 10+ degrees C (so 20 degrees F) more mild in the winter than Chicago. The entirety of continental France, including its southern coast, is north of Boston. Paris is almost far enough north to be exactly at the long E-W US/Canada border. Yet rarely gets below freezing.
The entirety of France, including its southern coast, is north of Boston.
Acktyually, the southernmost point in France is 50°01′ South (Îles de Boynes in the southern Indian Ocean). 🤓
Somewhat more legitimately, there are also inhabited French lands further south than Boston: Corsica, French Guiana, French Polynesia, Réunion, etc. Corsica even counts as "Metropolitan France" (as opposed to "Overseas France") while still -- barely -- beating Boston by about 1°.
The UK is the most fun one to do comparisons with. The north end of Scotland is at the same latitude as Churchill, Manitoba. Churchill has polar bears.
(AFAIK) Ocean currents and winds (until now) regulated the weather in Europe. When that's gone, it will be wise for half of Europe to acquire a cargo sled.
Part of it but local geography has a larger impact for the more continental side of Europe. The Alps are very important since they block a lot of cold wind circulation from the Arctic that really cools down North America.
Continental versus marine climates. Water has a lot of thermal mass, and it moderates the diurnal and seasonal temperature swings in areas near bodies of water. With the jetstream moving weather west-to-east at these northern latitudes, air masses moving across Canada cool off over the land mass of the continent before hitting the central and eastern cities. It's also much warmer in the summer in those places, for the same reason.
Even if AMOC shuts off completely, Europe generally will be somewhat warmer in the winter, and cooler in the summer, than Canada.
Even if AMOC shuts off completely, Europe generally will be somewhat warmer in the winter, and cooler in the summer, than Canada.
I hope you're right, but research has recently suggested that the Little Ice Age was caused by the AMOC shutting down in the early 1400s.
The Little Ice Age was one of the coldest periods of the past 10,000 years, a period of cooling that was particularly pronounced in the North Atlantic region. This cold spell, whose precise timeline scholars debate, but which seems to have set in around 600 years ago, was responsible for crop failures, famines and pandemics throughout Europe, resulting in misery and death for millions.
...
But in the late 1300s, AMOC strengthened significantly [due to increased solar activity], which meant that far more warm water than usual was moving north, which in turn cause rapid arctic ice loss. Over the course of a few decades in the late 1300s and 1400s, vast amounts of ice were flushed out into the North Atlantic, which not only cooled the North Atlantic waters, but also diluted their saltiness, ultimately causing AMOC to collapse. It is this collapse that then triggered a substantial cooling.
If this research is correct, losing the AMOC again could cause a huge crisis for Europe.
Yes, I agree. No doubt that it'd cause a major crisis in Europe, and I didn't intend to imply otherwise. Its people, agriculture, buildings, and infrastructure are all adapted to the current climate, and a sudden shift will be very hard to handle. We saw that with the heat waves this past summer. Phoenix, Arizona routinely handles higher temperatures, but the buildings there are all equipped for it, while ventilation and air conditioning are not common in much of Europe.
I think Boston is the more apt comparison to Europe . Yes it’s AMOC on the east coast. We’re also somewhat moderated by the coast. However further inland temperature swings are more severe because of prevailing winds crossing all that land
Either way, it’s not that Canada is further south than you’d expect but that Europe is much further north than their weather would have you believe. AMOC slowing or even stopping is going to be a problem. Someone pointed out food - if temperature trends move where food can be grown or even prevent it in some countries
Alberta is landlocked, isn't it? Places deep inside a continent are always much more variable in annual climate than coastal places, as the ocean has such vast thermal inertia.
Yes, but that doesn’t apply unilaterally, the east coast gets pretty harsh winters compared to the west. The west coast hardly gets snow. The east coast constantly gets multi foot snowfalls and -30c weather.
Even New York in the USA gets blanketed with snow frequently.
It’s all lake/ocean affect, cold wind picking up moisture from large bodies of water. For example the Great Lakes are a significant source of lake affect snow in some of the snowiest parts of the northeast.
But here along the coast the nor’easter is the storm to watch for. Basically storms come up the coast until Canada stops it at the border. Then the storm hangs out off the coast of main and the winds at the back of the storm picks up all that moisture from the ocean and send it into new england
Atlantic meridional overturning current. It’s an ocean current that draws warm water up from the east coast of South/Central America, north and eastward
this shows about three times as much heat entering the system in the Gulf and Caribbean (~1.2 petawatts) than is brought from the South Atlantic and Indian Ocean (0.4PW).
I know I could google it, I was just prodding the folks who drop nothing but an acronym to provide a little more explanation in with their post than just some uncommon letter string. The other posts that explain it weren’t there at the time of my post.
I’m in Seattle and live further north than the majority of Canadians. Canada reaches as far south as Northern California’s latitude, and if you live in East Tennessee, you’re closer to Canada than you are to Memphis.
As someone from the southwest US, I don't understand how everyone in every European country isn't absolutely freezing their tits off year-round. Something to do with the Gulfstream? IDK
Scandinavia is hospitable to human habitation purely because of the Gulf Stream. British Isles and Northern Europe also enjoy much milder climates due to it.
Southern Europe gets its warmth mostly from Africa. Most of the Eastern Europe is far enough from the oceans to enjoy continental climate, which means very warm summers and cold winters.
In prehistoric periods they were freezing to death, homosapiens stalled out and died in Bulgaria in our first attempt to colonize Europe. The only reason that much of Europe is hospitable is because of the Gulf Stream, which I shall note is either at risk for or actively collapsing. I may be from SoCal but that sounds like a rather nice temperature personally, if my balls are outside of my body then it's too warm, y'all have to be at the edge of frostbite for me to be comfortable.
sure, but Canada turns into a tundra (during winter) whereas the Atlantic currents bring warm temperatures from Africa, which is why London has fog; it's where the warm currents exchange into cold air.
Hamburgh may refer to: An older English spelling of the German city of Hamburg, used up until the 19th century, from which the other meanings below are derived
Huh. Maybe it's the birthplace of the German Ebenezer Scrooge. "Bah, Hamburgh!"
In the Akashic Records, which exist outside time and space and is where our knowledge is truly stored and in the processes of our lives we experience novelty from the remembrance of being, but in the AR, all beings are recorded in their purest form. Santa Clause, being a staple of every good occident child's upbringing thanks to the eldritch chthartherage of capitalism at large, is a unique superpositional being. More than the whole naughty/nice rigamarole, and even beyond the ancient horizon which predicates the krampusallia manifest of durging banes square, Santa exists as he is depicted. In. Every. Depiction. Ever. Rule 34 goes deep on Santa to include a minimum of three SCP entities tied to the beinghood-essense of Santa just for pornographic reasons alone. The memetic potential is unequivocal. It's not literally Thantos snapping his one ball out of existence here, but it's close. Santa could wipe out the whole universe if anyone finds this proof for P=nP I whipped up in five minutes for some reason. My coffee was talking to me. That's how I knew, cuz I always knew, I just needed to remember.
98 replies
I think it's actually more appropriate to say that Europe is way further North than most people think based on its climate and such.
The only reason north west Europe's climate isn't more like Canada's is because the Gulf Stream and AMOC drag heat up North from the Southern hemisphere.
For now.
I live in the equivalent of halfway up Alaska. It's gonna be fun when the heat stops coming in
"See, coldest winter yet! Global warming is a myth."
Tbf, "global warming" is a myth. Well, more of a misnomer. On the other hand, climate change will fucking kill us all.
It's neither of those things though.
It is a true and accurate description of the impact our actions are having on the planet. It is getting measurably warmer and faster even than the scientific models predicted when Inconvenient truth came out
The problem is that on an individual, day to day, experience, the "warming" is barely perceivable. Sometimes you'll get record lows and other times record highs.
Climate change is probably a better term for it, because we are changing the climate, and that involves more than just warming (see ocean acidification). But the global average temperature is still increasing/warming.
Sorry for the pedantry. I realise you probably knew a lot/all of that, I've just seen too many bad faith actors in the realm of online climate change/global warming discussion.
Hey, no worries. My comment was not meant to be dismissive or fuel for climate change denial, more just a silly joke. I agree with you completely across the board. Honestly, over explaining in a context that can potentially be taken either way like my comment is completely understandable and welcome. Pedant away :)
Yeah most is above Toronto and Toronto is cold as fuck. If a good portion is above that, it's more like Alaska or Siberia
don't forget the ~30 degree tilt of the earth's axis..
Does that make a difference? I feel like that wouldn't make a difference since the earth rotates?
Not in this discussion, since Canada and Europe are both in roughly the same latitude on the Northern Hemisphere and thus tilted by the same amount relative to the poles.
Most people meaning Europeans, from my experience.
The rest of us understand why we have things like air conditioning. Only Europeans seem to not understand they are from the north north.
“Your mistletoe is no match for my TOW missile!”
Santa Claus is gunning you down.
X-mas is supposed to bring us together, not blow us apart!
Is that Greg Davies? Huh. Never been a Dr. Who fan, but I might check out that Christmas special.
Yeah but it has jack all to do with Futurama.
I don’t think anyone is going to confuse the weather in Windsor, Ontario and Rome, though.
Not yet. Global warming melting Greenland ice sheets is likely to cause the AMOC to slow / collapse, ending Europe’s temperate climate. This is possible within your lifetime.
Just to add some explanation on this for those who don't know:
The AMOC, which is a massive circular oceanic current in the Atlantic, passes in a South-North direction at the surface near Europe, bringing warm water from Africa, which helps make Europe warmer (especially near the Atlantic) than it would otherwise be.
Hence why it slowing down or even stopping would end Europe's temperate climate.
Just to add even more explanation on top of yours: "AMOC" is the fancy science-y name for what is more popularly known as the Gulf Stream, plus the rest of the currents that form a loop with it.
From what I remember last time I read up on this, in conjunction with global warming, there is roughly a line from Paris to Frankfurt where more north than that, temperatures cool down because of AMOC collapse, and south of that temperatures are higher than pre-industrial because global warming outweighs AMOC collapse cooling.
But of course those are just relatively rough projections, and it's average temperature, the extremes will still be way worse. So it's not like Frankfurt will have peachy weather while the rest of the world goes to shit.
Can't wait to skate on the Tiber
Maybe to dust off and rework those Rwandan refugee camp plans for those fleeing southward.
The Mediterranean Sea and Gulf Stream do a lot of work in that regard.
I like when Venice freezes over and they skate everywhere
Ahh yes, canadian weather, somehow both colder and hotter than europe(no somehow but you get what i mean)
Santa had Icy BMs stored at the North Pole prior to indoor plumbing.
BM is very naughty. Kinda hypocritical of him.
It's not that canada is south as much as it is Europe is north, like a lot.
Here at the 45th, we are about where Paris is at. Scotland is way the fuck up there.
Ya, exactly this. I used to live in Tromso, Norway. It's roughly the same latitude as the north coast of Alaska. I remember -12c being a cold day in winter. That's insane for that far north. Anywhere else at the latitude experiences -40c regularly.
You become a lump of coal
This is my reward for being naughty that one time 😑
You think Santa couldn't manufacture missiles in his factories if he decided to?
Hm, you're right. We should consider a preemptive strike.
Saint Nicholas Manufacturing, maker of the original Holy Hand Grenade
The mainland US is crazily far south. I thought Washington would be level with London
I have always felt the opposite. Europe is way further north than I would have expected given their climate. I realize now it is kept warm by the gulf steam and North America get that in reverse, hence really cold eastern Canada and New England.
No reverse. New England and eastern Canada are warmed by the same currents too, albeit not as much. The heat generally comes from the Caribbean. North Korea and Hokkaido have far colder winters and milder summers at similar latitude.
I believe you actually have it backwards. Europe is warmed by the gulf steam, it cools off on the way back to Canada and the US. If the Gulf Steam is disrupted as predicted, the UK is going to be in for a really cold time.
the cold water returning to the tropics flows deep under the warmer surface waters and has much less effect on land temperatures.
https://yaleclimateconnections.org/2024/12/atlantic-circulation-collapse-new-clues-on-the-fate-of-a-crucial-conveyor-belt/
this is where i got the claim from, that NE USA and E Canada would also cool down with no AMOC. (the sea-level rise in that region would be an even bigger problem though)
I think you may be misreading the map from that link a bit because it is fairly low detail and doesn't point out the landmarks very well. The "gyre" as it is referred to in the linked page doesn't really reach the northeast US much at all, it mostly stops at around the area between NC and VA where the coast protrudes. If you want to see a cool image based on satellite data that shows it off, check this out (https://www.earthdata.nasa.gov/news/worldview-image-archive/gulf-stream). That being said, some of that warm water does still affect a the NE US a bit (not so much for Canada), so the gulf stream faltering will make it colder, just not as dramatically as places like the UK which based on latitude would likely have temperatures closer to Sweden and Norway.
Your comment six hours ago had a claim that eastern Canada and New England were cooled by the amoc. I think that was the only thing the other poster was going against. Your recent comment now agrees that eastern Canada and New England would be colder without the amoc.
It wasn't clear at all that was all that other commenter disagreed with. Also Eastern Canada and New Edgland are cooled by it. It isn't as much of an effect because the cold water sink, but it most certainly affects it.
Well, and it's crazy how cold the middle and eastern parts of North America get.
Boston and Chicago are famously cold cities. Chicago is exactly parallel with Rome; Boston is only 50km north of Rome. Rome, Barcelona, even Tblisi - all about 10+ degrees C (so 20 degrees F) more mild in the winter than Chicago. The entirety of continental France, including its southern coast, is north of Boston. Paris is almost far enough north to be exactly at the long E-W US/Canada border. Yet rarely gets below freezing.
Acktyually, the southernmost point in France is 50°01′ South (Îles de Boynes in the southern Indian Ocean). 🤓
Somewhat more legitimately, there are also inhabited French lands further south than Boston: Corsica, French Guiana, French Polynesia, Réunion, etc. Corsica even counts as "Metropolitan France" (as opposed to "Overseas France") while still -- barely -- beating Boston by about 1°.
That's why I said "continental France" and certainly didn't edit my typo.
And it's not even just the northern parts. Here in the Ozarks we see everything from sub zero temps to over 100 every year.
Latitude is crazy. London would sit in the Hudson Bay, and Atlanta is a similar latitude to Casablanca or Baghdad.
The UK is the most fun one to do comparisons with. The north end of Scotland is at the same latitude as Churchill, Manitoba. Churchill has polar bears.
Woooah
It's robot Santa from Futurama
why is it so colder?
(AFAIK) Ocean currents and winds (until now) regulated the weather in Europe. When that's gone, it will be wise for half of Europe to acquire a cargo sled.
https://geographyclassroom.com/gulf-stream-and-europes-weather/
And until then they'll need AC's. Welcome to life in the American Midwest, everybody! It's very sustainable!
AMOC
Part of it but local geography has a larger impact for the more continental side of Europe. The Alps are very important since they block a lot of cold wind circulation from the Arctic that really cools down North America.
Continental versus marine climates. Water has a lot of thermal mass, and it moderates the diurnal and seasonal temperature swings in areas near bodies of water. With the jetstream moving weather west-to-east at these northern latitudes, air masses moving across Canada cool off over the land mass of the continent before hitting the central and eastern cities. It's also much warmer in the summer in those places, for the same reason.
Even if AMOC shuts off completely, Europe generally will be somewhat warmer in the winter, and cooler in the summer, than Canada.
I hope you're right, but research has recently suggested that the Little Ice Age was caused by the AMOC shutting down in the early 1400s.
...
If this research is correct, losing the AMOC again could cause a huge crisis for Europe.
Yes, I agree. No doubt that it'd cause a major crisis in Europe, and I didn't intend to imply otherwise. Its people, agriculture, buildings, and infrastructure are all adapted to the current climate, and a sudden shift will be very hard to handle. We saw that with the heat waves this past summer. Phoenix, Arizona routinely handles higher temperatures, but the buildings there are all equipped for it, while ventilation and air conditioning are not common in much of Europe.
Elevation maybe? Most of Canada is pretty high up from sea level. Dunno how much of Europe would be the same.
AMOC
Could be multiple factors no? It can’t just be the one.
Alberta is still really freaking cold, and there is warm air coming up the mountain range all the time.
It can be multiple factors, but a lot of it is AMOC.
I think Boston is the more apt comparison to Europe . Yes it’s AMOC on the east coast. We’re also somewhat moderated by the coast. However further inland temperature swings are more severe because of prevailing winds crossing all that land
Either way, it’s not that Canada is further south than you’d expect but that Europe is much further north than their weather would have you believe. AMOC slowing or even stopping is going to be a problem. Someone pointed out food - if temperature trends move where food can be grown or even prevent it in some countries
Alberta is landlocked, isn't it? Places deep inside a continent are always much more variable in annual climate than coastal places, as the ocean has such vast thermal inertia.
Yes, but that doesn’t apply unilaterally, the east coast gets pretty harsh winters compared to the west. The west coast hardly gets snow. The east coast constantly gets multi foot snowfalls and -30c weather.
Even New York in the USA gets blanketed with snow frequently.
Blame it on the Canadians 🤪
It’s all lake/ocean affect, cold wind picking up moisture from large bodies of water. For example the Great Lakes are a significant source of lake affect snow in some of the snowiest parts of the northeast.
But here along the coast the nor’easter is the storm to watch for. Basically storms come up the coast until Canada stops it at the border. Then the storm hangs out off the coast of main and the winds at the back of the storm picks up all that moisture from the ocean and send it into new england
What does that stand for?
Atlantic meridional overturning current. It’s an ocean current that draws warm water up from the east coast of South/Central America, north and eastward
The shallow, sunny Gulf of Mexico and Caribbean are the main place for heat energy entering the system.
https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1029/2020JC017073
this shows about three times as much heat entering the system in the Gulf and Caribbean (~1.2 petawatts) than is brought from the South Atlantic and Indian Ocean (0.4PW).
https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/comment/28525895
I know I could google it, I was just prodding the folks who drop nothing but an acronym to provide a little more explanation in with their post than just some uncommon letter string. The other posts that explain it weren’t there at the time of my post.
I’m in Seattle and live further north than the majority of Canadians. Canada reaches as far south as Northern California’s latitude, and if you live in East Tennessee, you’re closer to Canada than you are to Memphis.
As someone from the southwest US, I don't understand how everyone in every European country isn't absolutely freezing their tits off year-round. Something to do with the Gulfstream? IDK
Scandinavia is hospitable to human habitation purely because of the Gulf Stream. British Isles and Northern Europe also enjoy much milder climates due to it.
Southern Europe gets its warmth mostly from Africa. Most of the Eastern Europe is far enough from the oceans to enjoy continental climate, which means very warm summers and cold winters.
In prehistoric periods they were freezing to death, homosapiens stalled out and died in Bulgaria in our first attempt to colonize Europe. The only reason that much of Europe is hospitable is because of the Gulf Stream, which I shall note is either at risk for or actively collapsing. I may be from SoCal but that sounds like a rather nice temperature personally, if my balls are outside of my body then it's too warm, y'all have to be at the edge of frostbite for me to be comfortable.
Yeah, similar to why seattle isn't nearly as cold as Chicago
Toronto is lower than Montreal? Wow, I suck at geography.
Just for comparison, this is what the "Southernmost Limit" of Canada looks like in Europe:
And Montreal & Ottawa is around Lake Lugano:
sure, but Canada turns into a tundra (during winter) whereas the Atlantic currents bring warm temperatures from Africa, which is why London has fog; it's where the warm currents exchange into cold air.
Santa done fucking around.
All of those are in the southern half of Canada
That's where most of the Canadians are (the map does say 6 largest cities)
Yeah, just saying Canada is still prrreeeetttty far north lol
HO! HO! HO!
I’ve been to Vancouver during the Olympics and the weather wasn’t very different from what I’m used to in the Netherlands.
Coincidentally, both Vancouver and the Netherlands are on the west coasts of their continents...
Why is Hamburgh spelled like that?
Huh. Maybe it's the birthplace of the German Ebenezer Scrooge. "Bah, Hamburgh!"
Aiaiaiaiaiai caramba maybe. Or referring to the Hansestadt prefix in some stupid way?
Krampus has entered the chat
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0FJU4GrXztE
In the Akashic Records, which exist outside time and space and is where our knowledge is truly stored and in the processes of our lives we experience novelty from the remembrance of being, but in the AR, all beings are recorded in their purest form. Santa Clause, being a staple of every good occident child's upbringing thanks to the eldritch chthartherage of capitalism at large, is a unique superpositional being. More than the whole naughty/nice rigamarole, and even beyond the ancient horizon which predicates the krampusallia manifest of durging banes square, Santa exists as he is depicted. In. Every. Depiction. Ever. Rule 34 goes deep on Santa to include a minimum of three SCP entities tied to the beinghood-essense of Santa just for pornographic reasons alone. The memetic potential is unequivocal. It's not literally Thantos snapping his one ball out of existence here, but it's close. Santa could wipe out the whole universe if anyone finds this proof for P=nP I whipped up in five minutes for some reason. My coffee was talking to me. That's how I knew, cuz I always knew, I just needed to remember.