They even mention how the point is to buy the whole laptop once and then upgrade or repair it, instead of buying an entirely new laptop. Of course they're selling fewer laptops than anyone making mediocre netbooks
And I don't see why that is a problem.
If a company is doing good thing and sustaining itself, I don't see why they will need to be the next dell, hp, or lenovo.
That feels like the toxicity of "endless growth" in the capitalistic view of the world.
Not to mention in most of the place I go to, these are the most popular laptops only behind macbooks. In many situations, they are even more popular than macbooks.
I have never seen a Framework in the wild, however I applaud their approach, but even when taking repair costs in consideration, Frameworks are more expensive than simply upgrading to a newer laptop and using the old laptop for some other purpose. I can't imagine with the rampocalypse that they easily survive, but I hope they do, I wish other manufacturers would make repair a higher priority.
My anecdotal experience - my Asus gaming laptop died about 6 months ago. with a lot of trouble shooting, I determined it was most likely the mobo. I decided to go with a framework, and was able to bring over my hard drive and ram, saving me like $400.
Getting the framework driver's was painful. I needed to download them over wifi, but wifi wasn't working because it needed the driver. okay, download on another computer and install via USB, nope. USB drivers aren't working either. I ended up spotting my hard drive into my desktop, downloading the drivers that way, and then moving it back to the framework laptop to install.
I've literally never had a computer need drivers to make basic USB work in the past probably 20 years. I had a bleeding edge ai 350 framework right even when it came out. Linux was a little flaky with my sound but everything else worked. Same in Windows. Maybe I needed Wi-Fi drivers, don't recall, but I know USB worked without any. I'm really curious how you needed USB drivers of all things genuinely. I mean you installed the OS presumably from a thumb drive so how would that not work in the same os after installing? Lol.
If you have a desktop with internet connection, maybe a USB stick would suffice?
There is also USB tethering from a phone that could work.
I am not defending framework. They should try to do better (maybe windows is the bottleneck? not sure).
Just offering solutions to people who might encounter this problem later.
I would like to offer a slightly different perspective: I believe framework is uniquely positioned to survive the ram apocalypse (at least respect to their scale).
In the sense that, framework user can keep purchasing and upgrading components, like battery, screen, speaker, hinge, expansion card, without needing to worry about ram prices, and framework can profit from these component without needing to subsidize ram prices.
That being said, as a smaller company, they certainly don't have the same amount of bargaining power on ram as most big players, and the launch of LPCAM2 is a bit risky, since that pervents people from purchasing new ram/board/laptops given the current ram prices.
Nope, not on intel core ultra 3 unfortunately (unless you have LPCAMM2 lying around, which is unlikely), that is the risky part I mentioned in the end.
Umm, not sure if you have seen Framework's prices.
The current 13in with a weak intel processor is $1850 (and you can't get it until October). To buy an equivalent Dell? Around $1,000 and you can get it tomorrow.
The upgrade cost for the motherboard (say you want to switch to AMD), will cost you $900. For that $3k you can buy 3 Dells all with ram and storage.
And no, they aren't positioned well without RAM as their newer ones use LPCAMM2. You don't have that just lying around.
The current 13in with a weak intel processor is $1850
Is not at all a weak processor. Intel currently makes the best x86 mobile processors on the market. The entire point is that you don't have to buy a whole new computer when you upgrade. You just get an updated motherboard and slap it into the existing chassis.
The upgrade cost for the motherboard (say you want to switch to AMD), will cost you $900. For that $3k you can buy 3 Dells all with ram and storage.
And all 3 will be outdated when it comes time to upgrade. And they'll all be shittier than the Framework.
they aren't positioned well without RAM as their newer ones use LPCAMM2
Umm that intel processor is the weakest of the bunch. The i9 version you can't even buy from Framework currently. I get the homerism for Framework, but I guarantee you that they will be out of business within 5 years.
I don't think you get the point. To upgrade a Framework, even if you are able to move the ram and SSD over, you literally can get an equivalent laptop from another manufacturer with new RAM, SSD and the screen, battery and everything else, and still use the old laptop. With Framework, you move parts over and slowly upgrade. It's not sustainable at the current costing for anyone except for people who are very into home repair.
Framework is moving all over their laptops to LPCAMM2 because the newer platforms require it for faster RAM, the alternative would be soldered on RAM which defeats the entire purpose of Framework, as you wouldn't be able to 'upgrade' your laptop or repair it.
That is just plain not true. If you are a enthusiast and know where to look then you definitely can find better deal than framework, but getting a dell (or even better dell?) for half of the price is simple not true.
Framework is cheaper than dell if you don't try to find deals or buy older models.
If you buy older models, then framework don't need to replace ram, I can upgrade my laptop to kitted out ryzen AI 9 for only 849$, https://frame.work/products/mainboard-amd-ai300?v=FRANTE0009 with my existing 64GB of ram.
I don't think you can get any laptop close to that quality with this price.
It's very true. You recognize that Dell always runs discounts and the only people paying full price would be corporations or ignorant people such as yourself? Literally Dell is running a discount to bring the price down to $1,300. Wild how price inefficient Framework is, for something you can't get until at least October, when every other manufacturer you can get now.
Why does everything need to cater to the average consumer? The average consumer is a fucking idiot, especially when it comes to technology. They don't need to sell to everyone, they just need to sell enough to keep their company running and their people paid.
I feel this way about spicy things. Everything "hot" is just hot to the average schmuck from the Midwest. Anything spicier than that gets dumbed down to become that (like taco bell Diablo sauce) or becomes hard to find.
I really enjoyed when that Buldak 2x spicy chicken raman "challenge" became a thing, because that's some great tasting raman and more in line with the normal amount of spicy I like to eat. Now I'm back to having to just order it online again.
It's not your fault. The taco bell one really tucked me off, though. The first summer it was out was a limited time thing. It was actually a bit spicy. A lot more spicy than anything else a fast food chain had.
But then when they brought it back permanently it wasn't half as spicy as it was. Taco Bell has like 5 fucking bland ass sauces now, and three of them taste about the same. What's the damned point? FU taco bell. You could have left me with at least one option besides all your ketchup with tobacco sauce mixed in. No wonder I've only been there like 4 times in the last year.
Yeah, I remember thinking the diablo one was pretty hot for my taste but now it's the one I go with. I didn't know they changed it, I thought I might have developed some tolerance lol. It's gotten way too expensive for what it is anyway.
Yeah. They buy cheaper stuff, and charge more for it. I can't stand the taste of their trash burrito shells they went to. Then, they charge twice as much for just a bean burrito and give you half the filling, even though it's just super cheap refried beans.
Comes from the corporate mindset where only growth is good. Just existing as a company that's makes stuff for a small group of people is somehow 'incorrect' to these crazy people.
Well, what is hundreds of thousands as a percentage of the overall market? Like if they sold hundreds of thousands of grains of rice, that's "almost nothing" compared to the rest of the rice that got sold
"Most of the market" includes the segments of commercial support contracts for office laptops which Framework doesn't even target. Then you have the next biggest which is "go to Costco/Walmary/bestbuy and get what is on sale. So Framework simply cannot be a majority brand without those.
Among the remaining segment, e.g., developers that get to shop around and buy whatever they want? Its fairly popular.
I don’t understand what you mean in your first point. There are clear pathways for companies and schools to buy in bulk on the framework website.
Not saying that FW is successful in that way but it is there.
I agree on your second point but would tie it to marketing. Having your laptop on sale at Costco is a marketing strategy, which for better or for worse, FW doesn’t do right now (and probably doesn’t have the ability to do)
I mean, Dell is the #3 in laptop sales and sells roughly 30 million laptops per year. So yeah, Framework is roughly 0% of market share. I know this is a very tech enthusiast heavy website, but there are certain realities that people should face. It's like saying Nothing Phone is going to remotely compete with Apple. It's not a fair or valid comparison in the first place. I think a more fair comparison for Framework (beyond what they are hoping to achieve) would be with a small system builder like System 76, XMG or the likes.
Makes me think how much I wanted to play mutliplayer games as a kid. I always played single because all my games were err, yknow.
Then I got to play MP little by little only to realize I hate everyone. Teammates in shooters are almost always idiots. People raid me in online RPG's because I dare not log in at 7 AM daily. My friends are impatient as fuck playing open world games like Minecraft, it always ends in 2 weeks. Nobody can agree what game to play. They tell me how they argued and broke up with their so and so as I'm fighting for my life in the trenches of battlefield 1, like I give a damn.
Now I play by myself in that little "almost nobody" and I'm happier than I ever was in multiplayer...
Yeah. I get it. I don't have any spare DDR5 SODIMMS or Samsung EVO m.2s laying around.
The point is that I won't be upgrading anything anytime soon, and probably a lot of other people are in the same boat. I would love a Framework 16.
Unless you're in the top right branch of our current K shaped economy, most people won't be buying a Framework or a Steam Machine or upgrading their gaming rig right now.
The article is clanker slop. It's mostly reiterative, a clear sign of clanker slop. Clankers are reiterative in their slop. A lot of clanker slop is reiterative.
Not all reiterative spamlike garbage is clanker slop. Some of it is deliberately written to prioritize SEO over respecting the reader or producing anything of quality. Either way thanks for giving me the heads-up not to give them any of my time.
From a comparison I saw, you can buy two complete laptops with the same specs as one framework. Its hard to justify an upgradable laptop at that point.
Thanks to “look up” (value engineering) the I can buy the cheap one twice is more required than ever before lol! I can’t speak to frameworks build quality
I’m also a used to dunk on apple products guy then I bought a MacBook Pro and honestly insert windows laptop here experience is just worse in every way “out of the box” 😂
Stupid sleep state settings and updates on battery - looking at you Samsung Galaxy crap trying to catch itself on fire in my backpack with a near dead battery every time I tried to use it lolol
Nailed it. The cost doesn't really make sense when you can have two functional laptops when you upgrade, so the prior one becomes a backup, a home lab server, etc. I know they have ways of making the prior pieces functional, but again at increased cost.
Never mind the fact I just plain almost never need to repair anything on my laptop because I take care not to damage it in the first place. The last laptop I had to repair anything on was one I bought in 2005, and it wasn't even anything essential - just a pretty piece of the exterior that became unglued.
The mainboards work stand-alone. There are free STLs to print a case for it or you can buy a case from them.
Basically replacing the mainboard gives you another small PC to use as a desktop/living room/server device. You obviously still need RAM and storage though.
I own a framework 13 and I replaced the mainboard once (due to an issue, they replaced it) and it took less than 10 minutes to swap. It's expensive for what it is, but in support of their vision I was willing to pay premium for it.
They also argue that they need these high prices due to low volumes with the goal of bringing prices down to be more competitive eventually.
I was able to get a used one cheap for under 600€, used it for a while and now have upgraded the hinges, speakers, battery, keyboard and motherboard along with more RAM and a larger SSD. It’s the perfect PC builder’s laptop.
Exactly. Great idea, nice execution. But as much as I want one, I can't justify the cost.
It'd be fantastic if a modular setup became standard. Upgradeable laptops would be great for the environment.
Yes, pretend it's something wrong with the right idea (a repairable /upgradable device) and not the fact that America took a giant, wet trump all over the entire economy and a combo meal at mcdonalds is $16 with a small, non-refillabke drink and everything else is exponentially fucked from there.
Give us a reasonable pre-trump PC market, with this being a slight premium above that, do projections to normalize cost of ownership over say 10 years and it would grow. But we live here, so no.
You'd have to be borderline mentally invalid to ignore the impact trump has had on the entirety of American business and the economy, let alone the RAM crisis him and his loser AI cronies are causing.
Donald Trump's administration literally writes the laws of the country and can absolutely limit and regulate AI companies but they chose not to and in fact paid open AI in government contracts for their garbage.
Do you even know anything about this subject or are you just hoping trump sees this and offers to let you suck his little weenie?
So you think they should have made laws to stop AI companies from buying hardware? Based on what? Why?
You can’t blame an administration for companies buying things from other companies in bulk lol. You do not want a government making ad-hoc laws to stop things like that, that is an absolutely insane thing to even suggest.
It has nothing to do with trump. How about you try and look at things not just through a “how can I blame this on trump?” lense?
I think he's saying, in this particular instance is that Trump's fault? It's B2B, and probably would have happened regardless of who's POTUS (see GPU shortages under Biden's term).
Don't get me wrong, Trump is totally interventionist as long as it personally benefits his family. But this far he's not made any plays wrt to supply/demand of hardware. From whats been officially released, the only interventionism he's done wrt AI companies is get then them to have backdoors and be used for military applications.
RAM makers are free to sell their entire allocation to a single buyer if they want. You’re telling me that you want the government to make laws to prevent that? What would that law look like?
Do you even realise what you’re saying? You want the government to come in and tell companies who to sell their product to and how much they get. That is absolutely fucking laughable. That’s not what a government is for lol
Moving the goalposts from PC prices being higher to the rampocolypse just to lick boots harder is the real tds.
This is kinda like when I saw a piece of plywood nailed awkwardly to a tree with some shit about tDS spray painted on it. Showing your own ass there bud.
So when I work with the procurement department to make accurate cost estimates based on tariffs, specifically, that's just a hallucination. Good thing I have Internet trolls to snap me out of it.
Tariffs on RAM and semiconductors haven’t even started yet you turkey lol.
As I said, RAM prices have exploded all over the world. Trumps tariffs don’t affect other countries. They exploded BEFORE any tariffs were announced. The announced tariffs haven’t even begun being enforced yet lol
So it's not serving the bottom-feeder market for effectively disposable Windows laptops.
Why should it need to? Serving a niche interest is perfectly valid as long as you're making enough money at it to be self-supporting. Despite what the line-go-up-at-all-costs advocates think.
They also have a 12" laptop for the lower end market.
When friends or family ask my opinion on what computer to buy, I have two recommendations.
1 - Frame.work with Linux on it
2 - Macbook
Unless you're tight on cash, those are the two best options. Heck, even if you are tight on cash, get a used version of either of the above, you'll probably do just fine.
Unless you're REALLY tight on cash, then get an ebay thinkpad and load linux.
Was recently asked for hardware preferences for a new job and my list was basically that. Framework with Linux -> MacBook -> Some other Linux Laptop - Windows.
Kinda disappointed in the recent Thinkpads since they removed deep sleep and only have sleep to idle which is garbage in my experience. I ended up re-enabling hibernate because it would get less than 8 hours on battery while sleeping and would cook in my bag once put into sleep. The framework (at least the 13 not sure on the pro) still supports deep as far as I'm aware.
this can also work because they will at some point get sold down for lower prices so it's not like people that can't afford a new one can't buy a second hand one. A SH framework will be better than any shitty other laptop in the long run.
I have a framework 13. Last week I noticed my battery had gone spicy pillow. Screwed it open, removed the battery and ordered a new one. A few days later I got the new battery, put it in and screwed everything back together. Took me less than 30 minutes in total, got original parts and not some sketchy Amazon crap, was less complicated than repairing my desktop PC. This is how you do repairable tech.
I’m thinking of a framework for my next machine but I have been using laptops for decades. Still have a Linux one from 2014. None of them get spicy pillow. So… just luck of the draw?
I guess. I've had a hp convertible previously and it also got the spicy pillow. Just my luck I guess. The difference was, that the hp one had shifty screws and lots of glue and the case was permanently deformed by the expanding battery. In comparison the experience with my framweork was just so much better
Amazing. I did the same on my 2012 macbook air, and a friend's Asus notebook. My 2019 Lenovo is still going strong, I expect to get 10y of lifetime out of it. Oh, and Lenovo spare parts are dime a dozen. I have rebuilt old Lenovos multiple times in my life, typically by buying a broken donor machine.
So exactly what is the business case for buying a Framework Notebook?
(Yes, they are really beautiful, cool and I'd WANT one. But there always was a better option to buy, for one reason - price: used Lenovo, portability: MacBook Air)
Even if I could afford ram, that doesn't even mean I can afford a framework laptop. I've looked at them every time I've thought about buying a laptop, but they're just so damn expensive and I already have a perfectly good desktop.
My problem with apple is that they're a shitty anti-consumer company, so i won't ever buy anything from them. (I also just really dislike macos. have to use it for work now and jesus it is awful)
Honestly if the average person can’t buy it at Best Buy or Target, they won’t. Most people don’t know about this stuff.
Wherever a random coworker or family member asks me which of two laptops to buy, it’s always between a couple of prebuilt machine at a big box retailer.
I love the idea of Framework myself, but I can’t afford to buy one.
Too niche for the average buyer, too expensive for the rest of us.
They are expensive up front. I have one of the first 11th generation Intel ones. I bought a new CPU fan last year instead of getting a new laptop. One of my kids dropped it, and I'll need a new screen for it here soon.
Instead of buying 3 laptops, I bought 1 and repaired it. Super worth it.
Who would have thought a more expensive, more premium product would have a hard time finding customers during a time when people are struggling to pay bills and cant even afford the non-existent dollar menu at mcdonalds anymore.
I went to see to compare against a Thinkpad (E14).
Framework Laptop 13: $1140 for the Ultra 5 125H, 8GB, 256GB
Lenovo E15: $1120 for the Ultra 5 225u 16GB, 256GB
Lenovo price is a "sale" on their site off the "list price" of $1340
Framework wins:
The H series processor is superior to the U series, even if older model
-More custo options in general - eg I can choose 16gb in 1 stick vs 2 sticks, or I can choose "none" (also for SSD)
-I can choose No OS and save some money there
Framework loses:
No Core 5 in stock. I don't need a 7, that's $2-300 I don't need to spend
Framework Neutral:
No 256SSD in stock. But I do have the option to get no SSD and just buy my own. Arguably a win for me but not ideal for some
I'm unclear if Laptop 13 is the correct comparison vs a Laptop 13 Pro. The E14 is a mid-tier pro model, not a top of the line, which is where I tend to chill with laptops since they're not my dailies anyway).
Anyway, as someone shopping for a laptop, I see that prices are the same. Given this, Framework wins.
HOWEVER: If I was actually shopping for a laptop, I would buy a used older-model E14 on Ebay for say $400. I know it would last, they're repairable, and for the cost I could buy spare parts now. Because this is a secondary (1/week) device for me, I wouldn't spend $1100 on a laptop in general. Not when Thinkpads are ppossibly the next-most-repairable laptop out there.
Ultimate calculus - Framework isn't for me. Yet.
Now, if I had the money for activism? Sure, let's get more of these into the 2nd hand market, stop the waste. Or no second hand market at all, just upgrade like a Desktop.
At some point, I may have no need for a desktop. At that point, $1100 for a primary PC is a good price, esp if I can build on it. If I was a laptop user, me who like custo and upgradeability - Framework is a fair value, good price even.
Anyway, to the point of the comment chain above me, I would say it's a 1:1 price. If you're shopping in that spec range anyway. If you need lower spec than Core Ultra 5H, say Ultra/Ryzen 3U, Framework doesn't target that audience - and neither do quality [major] OEMs (you might find a great sale somewhere of course). But basically a well-built mid-tier laptop just costs $1000-$1200 new these days (I'd have said $800-$1000 before the price hikes recently).
Edit3: I thought about it and you're right, the point is irrelevant in the context of this thread. Really should have been a separate comment re/ the target market.
The cheapest 32 GB + 1 TB + 1 HDMI + 1 USB A + 2 USB C + Charger + Windows 11 model I found is the Framework 12, which has a slower CPU than my actual laptop. Those specs costs $1400 USD, shipping to my country would cost some extra $100 USD. I bought my Lenovo laptop with those + OLED display for $900 + shipping. Fair, is not double the price, but also far more than $150 USD.
What's surreal is that I bought it before the RAM prices spiked up. I could probably sell a ram stick now (48gb) for nearly half the price of a regular laptop. It's absurd.
The reason used ThinkPads are so easy to find in good condition at bargain prices is because management in corporations just lease them for 3-5 years and continuously replace them even if they don't actually need to do so. They probably don't even know that they can last decades but accounting wants a lease, so they get a lease.
There isn't a similar "infinite supply" of used frameworks that constantly drives prices down
It really bothers me that this shit is never mentioned or gets drowned out whenever people talk about Framework laptops. We should absolutely name and shame anyone who donates to alt-right nutheads that sincerely believe in "White replacement" bs.
Far right?
I mean I don't know if that's enough for me, but he's not really making anything I would use anyways.
But honestly business people should just keep politics to themselves
I have but I didn't consider them because retailers don't carry them and I'm not buying a laptop I've never tried typing on to make sure the keyboard isn't ass.
The trouble with other people's recs is taste. What you think is an awesome keyboard I might hate and vice versa, your right you really need to test drive it urself to decide. Otherwise it's like buying a car you have never sat in sight unseen and praying it's as good as people tell you.
Yeah. I get the feeling most people are willing to settle for a lower standard or are looking for different things in a product than I am, if they're even critical of the things they buy at all. It explains how enshittification has been so successful.
Framework's keyboard is widely considered to be one of the best laptop keyboards available on the market, based on loads of reviews and personal opinions shared online (and my own experience).
Probably not relevant right now, but in the worst case, if you got one and hated it, they have a 30-day return policy.
Can anyone educate me on this? What happens if the company goes bust? Can I still swap the CPU and GPU on it, or am I entirely relying on parts made by Framework?
Here's the third party mainboard that's available today. Nice thing is they don't have to design a whole laptop to experiment with a new architecture, cause they can just build off Frame.Work's... framework. https://deepcomputing.io/product/dc-roma-risc-v-mainboard-iii/
This crowdfunded solution has new expansion cards (like a double type-c) and also a laptop dock that uses expansion cards so you can customize your own dock. https://dockframe.com/
Yeah the crowdfunding is supposed to start "soon™", but no mention of what that means. Let's see, maybe they'll open source the schematics if it doesn't work out
The company is absolutely not "going bust". In fact they often have trouble producing enough to keep up with demand. They're just not going to blow away Dell or HP anytime soon.
It was a hypothetical. If their product becomes unusable without them, I wouldn't have considered their products particularly repairable. But I got my answer above, and I'm happy. Will consider a framework when my Thinkpad says goodnight.
Just want to say, I bought a framework 13 and it's fantastic. Been running arch off of it for two years and it's been a workhorse.
It was expensive comparable to a similar specced PC at the time but I make enough to vote with my wallet so that's what I did. I think anyone who has the money but doesn't, simply because there's a better deal that's worse for the environment and the makers of the item, while holding a right to repair or anti-corporate mindset are hypocritical at best.
The world gets better if we make it that way, and I see buying a framework (if you have the extra money) as a small step in a better direction.
The real thing to consider here is upgradability. Thinkpads are pretty OK to repair but no upgrades. For that I'd consider Framework.
Unfortunately I don't want an x86 laptop. x86 desktops only beat apple silicon laptops when GPU becomes involved, x86 laptops are nowhere near as good as apple silicon laptops.
Check out your local 2nd hand listings. You might get lucky with someone selling a used one at half price. At which point their lack of ram or storage becomes a much more palatable upgrade problem rather than a deal breaker.
I legit used to carry my mini PC back and fourth from office to home. Brix 4770r, when loaded it sounded like a vacuum, all office guys were making fun of me. Good times.
But legit, I'm surprised noone builds laptops from desktop components. I don't care if it's huge. Just give me that
I'm surprised noone builds laptops from desktop components. I don't care if it's huge. Just give me that
Clevo did help other companies to OEM/ODM laptops with desktop CPU and sometimes with modular GPU module. But it's super rare in the current laptop market.
The power consumption and the heat might also limited the performance they can give.
Most laptop failure is physical damage to the enclosure or the board pops and the only thing that matters is getting OEM. Plus you can have a nice keyboard.
Framework is great, but it's just so insanely expensive.
I was buying a new laptop about 2 years ago. A framework one cost more than twice the price of a regular ultrabook with comparable (but better) specs.
Sure, you pay more for a Framework, and you can upgrade it later instead of buying a new laptop. Makes sense, but even then - a Framework one is more expensive than 2 laptops with similar specs. It only gets cheaper on the third upgrade. Which for me may be 10 years away.
Personally I'm not thrilled about investing in a laptop that will pay off in a decade. Who knows what laptops will be like by that time. Hell, it's not unconceivable that devices like Framework will be outlawed. Or that Framework goes out of business.
It might make sense for people who upgrade often, but I don't. Or for people who don't, but are wealthy enough to pay the premium anyway. If anything, I feel like having a Framework would make me want to upgrade more often, which would be a waste of money.
Even if they do, they use mostly off-the-shelf components, and the designs for the stuff that isn't are open-sourced. You can still repair them even if Framework doesn't exist.
I've swapped the Main board and WiFi chip in a framework laptop. Swap the ports regularly. It can have a few quirks to get used to. It is wildly worthwhile to me now that Dell has decided nothing can be repaired anymore. Those who say they take care of their laptop likely do try and one should but it is survivorship bias imho. Accidents happen unintentionally that is why they are called accidents.
Spent over two decades repairing laptops... I'm unlikely to purchase anything but framework for years going forward. Now if we could just get the framework printer :P The upfront cost is high they are still a small manufacturer. The long term value is working out well for me.
Yeah, you can certainly get cheaper laptops, but if you're looking for similar build quality, it's not that much more
I would also say, for me, the peace of mind with how easy it is to fix is worth it. I used to stress over my wife or nephew or someone wanting to do something on my laptop, but now if they poke the screen with their finger I just think I can fix it in 5 minutes if they mess it up
If I were god king of (USA/Europe/Asia...the Universe), I would subsidize repairable laptops. It would save resources in the long run, for both humanity and the planet.
Unfortunately tariffs make them much more expensive in the US. I bought my barebones (no ram/ssd) framework 16 in 2024 for roughly $1800, but now a comparable 16 is well over $2100. Still worth it imo, but damn does that price hurt. As an aside, I love my 16, but had I realized how difficult it is to travel with it I would have gotten the 13
I was looking for a new laptop recently and considered framework, exactly because of repairability/upgradeability. They are just too expensive for what you get, buying used enterprise model is a lot more economical and powerful. I ended with thinkpad p1 gen 5 that was essentially new with 64 RAM, rtx 3080 ti laptop for ~$1100. And you can replace everything easily but the motherboard.
This is the real issue IMO, framework mainly appeals to the environmental crowd and economical crowd. Problem is buying used corporate workstations is way better for both these markets + it doesnt even seem like the motherboard upgrades are much cheaper than just buying a new used laptop. Maybe with terrible ssd prices the calculus changes, but you still need to upgrade ram on a new board anyway. Hardware just doesn't improve on the 2-4 year timescales to justify this anymore.
Well put, I change computers every 4-5 years and there is little reason to change motherboard. It would be great if possibility existed to easily swap CPU but we don't have this and changing motherboard just doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
speaking of Framework. did anything turn out of their "big tent" approach as they were saying it? was there any continuation of that thing?
for those who have no idea, there was some controversy around Framework when they were collaborating with omarchy and its founder of some specific beliefs
This is the actual reason I won't buy one. I'm willing to pay extra for a product that goes against the current and offers repairability and modularity. But the way they handled that situation makes me not want to see them ever again. I'll stick to used Thinkpads.
My Thinkpad X1 Carbon 6th Gen is quite repairable thank you very much, and it was like 400 bucks, and it comes with an i7, 16gb of ram, and a 256gb ssd. It's only marketing that has people convinced they will fall behind unless they have the latest and greatest.
Come now, these products that cost 3x what they should don't get to claim it did not work out due to lack of demand. No one has pissing away money anymore and products made for some odd not rich but well off tech people is just not going to happen.
That’s because they’re really expensive and actually quite mediocre. I really wanted to love my framework, but the build quality is way worse than the price tag would suggest.
To be clear, I’m not saying their laptops are bad. I’m saying they’re mediocre and overpriced. They’ve got some really neat features, like how easy they are to repair and upgrade, but if the price of buying one laptop from them, then upgrading it once is the same as buying three comparable traditional laptops, then I really don’t see the point.
The price is 38% higher than a comparable ASUS laptop. That also doesn’t include Windows. (Which is how I would buy it, but most people would want Windows on it.)
Now let’s say you upgrade it. That’s another $600 for a new motherboard down the road, plus maybe new ram and ssd, but we’ll say it stays on DDR5. That’s $2570 for the laptop and one upgrade, compared to $2460 if you buy two ASUSes. And what do you get for that money?
Framework:
A laptop.
A motherboard with no RAM and no SSD. Maybe you could use it one day if you invest a bunch of money into getting more parts and one of those cases. Then you’ll maybe have a mini PC after you spend a lot more money.
ASUS (or, just normal laptops I guess):
A laptop.
Another whole god damned laptop that you can use for something else or give to a family member or sell or something, because it’s an entire laptop.
I’ve fixed tons of screens on laptops. Generally it’s harder than Framework, true, but it’s not impossible. Even if you have to pay a shop $800 to fix the screen, you’re still coming out cheaper than the Framework.
There’s zero financial reason to buy a Framework, ever. It will not save you any money. That being said, some people want to buy them to support the company, or because they like the repairability/upgradability, and sure, those are valid reasons to buy them. But don’t spread lies saying it will save you money. They are expensive products with mediocre build quality.
I have bought and returned 2 framework laptops. They are repairable but they are also questionable build quality.
The screen on the Framework 12 is very subpar and the size and weight throw it out of being a light laptop.
Despite saying how good Linux support was running NixOS on the replacement Framwork 13 was not great either. Wireless drops and countless reports of drops on their forums with zero responses or workarounds. Most people buy replacement wireless adapters cause the one Framework ships just doesn't work.
On top of that the laptop just feel cheap with a steep price. I have hope for the new Pro, but we'll have to see if it's any good because so far I am pretty dissapointed with Framework.
I was in the market for a 14'' work laptop and I so DESPERATELY wanted to buy a Framework but I couldn't thanks to a combination of all the AI bullshit driving up memory prices, Framework still being on the Series 1 Intel Ultra chips, and their global availability not quite being there (this bit is understandable for a relatively new company). I ended up buying a base 14'' MacBook Pro M5 even though I wanted to stay on Linux simply because it was the only thing with good perf, crazy good battery, and good build quality that was priced semi-reasonably even though it's on the opposite end of the repairability spectrum.
Even now a comparable Framework (Intel Ultra X7 358H, 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD) costs ~$150 more than what I paid for my Mac, assuming I can even get it shipped to where I am, and the regional pricing/taxes doesn't push the price higher. Kinda crazy because it's on the more reasonable side of things if memory serves. Dell XPS costs even more.
I hope this memory crisis gets sorted because I never thought I'd see the day that Apple became the budget option. Maybe I'll sell my Mac and get a Framework then because as much as I love using the Mac, I still hate being at Apple's mercy if anything breaks or if I need an upgrade.
I don't know how old "abc" is, but it's particularly painful for those of us who remember $100 going from getting us a 32Kb RAM pack, to 1Mb, to 64Mb, to 256Mb, to 1Gb, to 16Gb, and then just fucking stop for ten years, and now going back to no longer being able to even get us 16Gb any more. It's like stuff stopped getting better a decade ago, and everything is being made worse by the greed of rich arseholes
In late December of 2023 when there was a glut of RAM on the market, I purchased 24 64G ECC DDR5 sticks for $188 each. I split them between two production servers I was building for a cluster.
In early 2025 I was setting a third and they had rose to $318 each.
I checked last night and found the price for new was $2,700 a stick.
I would love to have a Framework laptop. Those things are awesome as hell.
Unfortunately, my very old laptop that I've torn down and repaired over a dozen times is still kicking. And spending $100 to fix it is cheaper than spending a gazillion dollars on a new Framework.
They are just too expensive, and it's hard to justify that price when popular brand have models with good level of reparaibility. For example the new Lenovo T14 Gen 7 got a 10/10 on iFixit.
They value a laptop that excels at providing value for money, a compact design, battery life, and brand familiarity.
Value for money on what timescale? Most seem to only think about the price vs the functionality a few days after purchase. Longer term, the ability to upgrade and repair components instead of pitching the whole thing would be higher value for money, but that's not how most consumers think.
A compact design is nice, but not the be-all-end-all if Framework can get in a reasonable size/weight range.
Battery life is an oxymoron here... the main issue I have with laptop battery life is after a few years of use it dwindles, eventually to zero. When the battery isn't replaceable, or is a proprietary form factor which costs nearly as much as a new laptop - that results in horrible battery life and value for money performance, but does generate new unit sales for non-repairable laptops.
This may seem weird but I dislike the aspect ratio of their screens.
I have a desktop with 16:9 monitors and a laptop with 16:10.
Those are close enough that your workflow doesn't really change. But 2:3 is different enough it makes a difference.
That and for what they are they're crazy expensive. So I went for a Slimbook (kinda the Spanish version of Tuxedo). They're not perfect but I found them "good enough".
Framework's whole thing is upgradable laptops. The increased cost is what you pay for the upgradable platform instead of buying a new laptop.
Repairability has already been proven multiple times by several OEMs like Lenovo.
Even if the repair process itself becomes tedious, the mark of a quality OEM is offering parts and schematics that allow repair shops to disgnose and fix broken machines.
Unlike Apple, which actively prohibits their vendors from selling any parts to anyone except Apple.
I got a Framework 13 that originally came with an 11th Gen Intel mainboard in it for free. It suffered a mainboard failure.
Swapped the mainboard with a Ryzen board, installed some used DDR5 from eBay and reused all of the other components. Now I have a Framework 13 for around $500 and it's likely the last laptop I'll ever need to own, if I can keep upgrading it every few years.
The idea of repairable notebooks sound good, except it's done by getting filtered through the tech bro lens. Still an ultrabook, the ports must be interchangeable modules to amaze the investors/users.
To me it is that i upgrade to few times so the laptop would be 10 years old and then everything is out of date. Maybe upgrade battery in between.
However, I guess these are really good in the used(resold) market.
I want one but I just got a refurbished thinkpad for like $350 and I'm trying to be a little more financially responsible than I was in the past. That being said I recently spent $2k on a 3D printer so maybe I'm not doing that well with the financial responsibility. I would love to get their 13 pro whenever it's in my budget.
I bought a 13" years ago. I thought I would have upgraded the cpu/motherboard, battery, speakers, screen by now but I could never justify the cost for the benefit. So it is the same as the day I bought it. I have bought cheap laptops for kids schooling and had to replace one for what would have been a repairable fault on a Framework but there is a massive price difference and could not justify another Framework. It is a shame. Their stuff needs to be a lot cheaper but it is a chicken and egg with volume.
When they made a cheap "chromebook" class plastic school laptop for kids it ended up costing more than a vastly more powerful mac (even before Apple released their cheap models). The low volume manufacturing had heaps of problems reported on their forums. Its strictly for the fans sadly. People with lots of disposable income who buy one in every colour. I would have loved to buy a similar looking product at a mainstream price and with modern specs but it makes no sense with current cost of living pressures.
Not readily available in Australia, I associate it with Linus (not torvalds), they're expensive, and god knows if Trump does weird export import stuff the moment it ships, and if it needs repair, nobody would be unsurprised if Trump made us pay to ship it back
Framework have been available in Australia for years. A few years back I ordered one and it shipped from Taiwan to regional South Australia in about a week. I was pissed off because they almost beat an order from PCcasegear. They are manufactured in and ship from Taiwan, not trumpistan.
I bought one for myself, and a high spec one for my wife's business. Mine is just a personal machine but I've been using it as a portable home server in my various moves. Very happy with both. They didn't seem a crazy amount more than similar spec machines in Europe
I haven't owned a laptop since smartphones and tablets took off. It's become a redundant form factor. Framework would be my go to choice if I ever did need one though.
I've tried that. For me, it's also about the app ecosystem and the way multitasking is implemented. But also, perching a Bluetooth keyboard on my lap while the tablet was up on top of something else just separated things in a way I couldn't reconcile in my mind.
I would only really get a linux tablet, I'm with you on that, I plan to use a metal lapdesk with a charachorder and magnets which will mitigate the exact issues you're talking about while also letting me take a tablet on my flights so less bulk. Gotta get a bit creative if you're doing it that way but it is doable.
The heat from use damages integrated parts equally. Laptops and phones are disposable and shouldn't waste on modularity because when one part goes, typically the rest follow. Modularity adds bulk weight and can interfere with cooling. A lot of those modules can be replaced by cheaper, and more convenient specialty cables.
Mediocre and repairable hardware for premium prices is not for everyone. Most people probably want the most performance for the least amount of money without any regards or respect for money or the environment.
It probably doesn't help that they have been in some controversial drama either.
And let's not forget that Linus Sebastian from Linus Tech Tips is an investor as well. I don't want my money to go to that greedy turd who screwed over his own audience for money in pure greed, and when he became a rich turd he instantly became the very greedy person he used to hate on the WAN Show.
Framework feels like a bit of a gimmick to me, it's basically dongles, but they're built into the machine. I'd rather have a decent selection of ports out of the box.
Even the headphone jack is an option you need to buy, it's silly.
I prefer the off lease commercial thinkpads too, but I am glad someone is actually creating new stuff for that market. The used thinkpad market can't grow.
Not the screen, but it would be nice if I could replace the keyboard on my laptop, since it doesn't work properly any more.
But since it's built into the lower body, it costs about as much to replace as the device is worth, since I'd be replacing a big piece of the casing, so I just make do with also carrying a Bluetooth keyboard.
Tip of the day: You can order replacement parts cheap from EBay or AliExpress and there are service manuals and instructions and even videos for plenty of common computers.
It may sound scary but it is really not that difficult. It's mostly finding all the screws and knowing what order to pick everything apart and put it back again.
Bonus Tip: get one (or 5 haha) of those little magnetic trays from harbor freight to put your screws in. They are a godsend if you're like me constantly losing shit.
To me the point of framework is that it can reliably endure amateur (aka me) repair.
I have repaired a fair amount of device in my life, companies without a focus on repair will have fragile cabel and components. And everytime I open it up, there would be a high chance of me breaking something, forcing me to use a broken device after that.
Repair and cleaning will need to happen every two or three years for most electronics, and that usually means I will live with a corky device for the next two years, then produce a bunch of ewastes consists of mostly perfectly functioning parts, with one failed critical component (most of the time, said component has not even failed, just significantly worn).
Me which is why I bought one, and several of the people who have seen me work with mine now want one for these reasons too. If my screen (or any component) craps out it is super easy to replace with minimal e-waste. Once I'm out of school and into the workforce I'm going to buy one of the GPUs probably a used one further reducing e-waste. If I want more storage space it takes like 5 minutes to swap a drive out. Love the thing
I own a framework and the dongles are the only thing I would change. I think it would better if the whole side is replaceable with preconfigured IO. As its right now its alot of space wasted. I think the MNT Reform does it like that.
The real reason I won’t buy one - despite wanting one really badly - is that Apple silicon is just too good. The gap between the battery life, performance and efficiency over x86 continues to widen.
FYI Intel caught up on node size. No more gap.
Only reason there was a gap is Intel fumbling to switch to a new node and apple showering tsmc with money for latest node size. There was no gap with amd all this time and battery was great on amd laptops
Intel just now recovered. Took probably 7-8 years. See panther like. But also I'm not going to waste my life providing "sources". Google it, research it.
Unfortunately, most of us obsessed with repairable laptops are also okay with refurbed at like a tenth the price.
Sure, a framework is more repairable than a thinkpad. But the point is to reduce ewaste. I can more easily reduce ewaste by buying this repairable enough laptop from eBay for $200-$400 vs $1200 without ram or ssd
Something about Framework giving money to several open source projects, one turned out to be someone who tweeted something racist once, and Framework didn't immediately commit seppuku.
I heard it here on Lemmy, which is why I'm asking. And asking that isn't an accusation, so maybe you need to continue working on that grammar. I asked because I heard it here and shocker this is a good use of social media because it's hard to find that specific detail. A question isnt an accusation but whatever floats your boat. After looking it up, looks like they sponsored/promoted Hyperland and Omarchy, both controversial conservative people/systems whatever, I dont really care but it's enough for me to say fuck giving Framework money. You go right ahead though.
$1100 isnt laptop money. Apple and Alienware poisoned the market 15 years ago. What happened to the dream of a $100 laptop? Wasn't there a whole movie or three about making this stuff affordable?
Best ive seen for value is chromebook. I think i bought 4 laptops one year for nieces and nephews for less than the cost of a single used MacBook pro or whatever was popular at the time. They do all the Facebook and Gmail that 95% of people actually need a computer for.
I really want to buy a Framework, but it doesn't make sense to me if every year they announce a new model that is improved. Every year I think about buying one a new one gets announced :/
Maybe I don't understand it but what is the point of that?
That sounds like every piece of tech in existence. Every laptop manufacturer does the same. The difference with Framework is that you can upgrade parts of your existing model with some of the new hardware if you want. You don’t have to have the latest and greatest but if you like a certain aspect of it, you can upgrade that.
They only have three models of laptop. The Framework 12, 13, and 16
Within each model they might upgrade the specs, or change some things around, but there is no break in compatibility from generation to generation. If you buy a Framework today, (assuming they don't go bust) you will be able to buy the upgraded parts a few years down the line and slot them into your existing laptop.
You can just swap out the main board and CPU, if you want a newer one. There are different models incompatible with each other, but you just gotta choose a shape and then the internals are largely the same.
On top of that, you don't have to stay bleeding-edge. Computers have mostly reached a steady-state these days. A decade old computer now is still a fairly usable machine. It won't be fast, but it also won't be a slug.
Every fucking time I pointlessly point out that phone batteries are easily swapped and it'll cost you battery + $15 to pay someone since nerd screeches about how it's just not easy enough to fix and blah, blah, blah.
People with disposable income just want the best new shit.
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Pick a lane there, XDA...
They even mention how the point is to buy the whole laptop once and then upgrade or repair it, instead of buying an entirely new laptop. Of course they're selling fewer laptops than anyone making mediocre netbooks
But that’s not that easily quantifiable so it’s bad /s
MBAs in a nutshell
Exactly
And I don't see why that is a problem. If a company is doing good thing and sustaining itself, I don't see why they will need to be the next dell, hp, or lenovo. That feels like the toxicity of "endless growth" in the capitalistic view of the world.
Not to mention in most of the place I go to, these are the most popular laptops only behind macbooks. In many situations, they are even more popular than macbooks.
I have never seen a Framework in the wild, however I applaud their approach, but even when taking repair costs in consideration, Frameworks are more expensive than simply upgrading to a newer laptop and using the old laptop for some other purpose. I can't imagine with the rampocalypse that they easily survive, but I hope they do, I wish other manufacturers would make repair a higher priority.
My anecdotal experience - my Asus gaming laptop died about 6 months ago. with a lot of trouble shooting, I determined it was most likely the mobo. I decided to go with a framework, and was able to bring over my hard drive and ram, saving me like $400.
You also likely don't need to reinstall/resetup everything, which is absolutely painful.
Getting the framework driver's was painful. I needed to download them over wifi, but wifi wasn't working because it needed the driver. okay, download on another computer and install via USB, nope. USB drivers aren't working either. I ended up spotting my hard drive into my desktop, downloading the drivers that way, and then moving it back to the framework laptop to install.
I've literally never had a computer need drivers to make basic USB work in the past probably 20 years. I had a bleeding edge ai 350 framework right even when it came out. Linux was a little flaky with my sound but everything else worked. Same in Windows. Maybe I needed Wi-Fi drivers, don't recall, but I know USB worked without any. I'm really curious how you needed USB drivers of all things genuinely. I mean you installed the OS presumably from a thumb drive so how would that not work in the same os after installing? Lol.
What the hell do you mean, USB drivers need to be downloaded? Isn't that standardized and included with the system?
If you have a desktop with internet connection, maybe a USB stick would suffice?
There is also USB tethering from a phone that could work.
I am not defending framework. They should try to do better (maybe windows is the bottleneck? not sure). Just offering solutions to people who might encounter this problem later.
I would like to offer a slightly different perspective: I believe framework is uniquely positioned to survive the ram apocalypse (at least respect to their scale).
In the sense that, framework user can keep purchasing and upgrading components, like battery, screen, speaker, hinge, expansion card, without needing to worry about ram prices, and framework can profit from these component without needing to subsidize ram prices.
That being said, as a smaller company, they certainly don't have the same amount of bargaining power on ram as most big players, and the launch of LPCAM2 is a bit risky, since that pervents people from purchasing new ram/board/laptops given the current ram prices.
Does a new generation mobo/chip combination generally still support the older generation of RAM?
Nope, not on intel core ultra 3 unfortunately (unless you have LPCAMM2 lying around, which is unlikely), that is the risky part I mentioned in the end.
That's what I get for only reading 2/3 of your comment before responding.
They're absolutely not.
Being that you can and have been able to buy them without RAM or storage, I'd say they're better-positioned than anyone.
Umm, not sure if you have seen Framework's prices.
The current 13in with a weak intel processor is $1850 (and you can't get it until October). To buy an equivalent Dell? Around $1,000 and you can get it tomorrow. The upgrade cost for the motherboard (say you want to switch to AMD), will cost you $900. For that $3k you can buy 3 Dells all with ram and storage.
And no, they aren't positioned well without RAM as their newer ones use LPCAMM2. You don't have that just lying around.
Is not at all a weak processor. Intel currently makes the best x86 mobile processors on the market. The entire point is that you don't have to buy a whole new computer when you upgrade. You just get an updated motherboard and slap it into the existing chassis.
And all 3 will be outdated when it comes time to upgrade. And they'll all be shittier than the Framework.
That is 1 of 5 computers they sell.
Umm that intel processor is the weakest of the bunch. The i9 version you can't even buy from Framework currently. I get the homerism for Framework, but I guarantee you that they will be out of business within 5 years.
I don't think you get the point. To upgrade a Framework, even if you are able to move the ram and SSD over, you literally can get an equivalent laptop from another manufacturer with new RAM, SSD and the screen, battery and everything else, and still use the old laptop. With Framework, you move parts over and slowly upgrade. It's not sustainable at the current costing for anyone except for people who are very into home repair.
Framework is moving all over their laptops to LPCAMM2 because the newer platforms require it for faster RAM, the alternative would be soldered on RAM which defeats the entire purpose of Framework, as you wouldn't be able to 'upgrade' your laptop or repair it.
That is just plain not true. If you are a enthusiast and know where to look then you definitely can find better deal than framework, but getting a dell (or even better dell?) for half of the price is simple not true.
On Dell website https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-laptops/new-xps-14-laptop/spd/xps-da14260-laptop, a core ultra 7 358H with 32GB Ram and 1TB SDD is 2749$ with no touch screen and a 2K display and windows Home.
On framework website https://frame.work/products/laptop13pro-intel-ultra-3/configuration/new, the same processor, ram, storage, with 2.8k touch screen, plus windows pro cost 2299$
Framework is cheaper than dell if you don't try to find deals or buy older models.
If you buy older models, then framework don't need to replace ram, I can upgrade my laptop to kitted out ryzen AI 9 for only 849$, https://frame.work/products/mainboard-amd-ai300?v=FRANTE0009 with my existing 64GB of ram. I don't think you can get any laptop close to that quality with this price.
It's very true. You recognize that Dell always runs discounts and the only people paying full price would be corporations or ignorant people such as yourself? Literally Dell is running a discount to bring the price down to $1,300. Wild how price inefficient Framework is, for something you can't get until at least October, when every other manufacturer you can get now.
Why does everything need to cater to the average consumer? The average consumer is a fucking idiot, especially when it comes to technology. They don't need to sell to everyone, they just need to sell enough to keep their company running and their people paid.
I feel this way about spicy things. Everything "hot" is just hot to the average schmuck from the Midwest. Anything spicier than that gets dumbed down to become that (like taco bell Diablo sauce) or becomes hard to find.
I really enjoyed when that Buldak 2x spicy chicken raman "challenge" became a thing, because that's some great tasting raman and more in line with the normal amount of spicy I like to eat. Now I'm back to having to just order it online again.
You can order the sauce separately too. I love that Buldak spicy carbonara stuff.
I totally have some! But man, it's kind of pricey for what it is. Not saying I don't spend more on most of the hot sauces I buy, but still.
As an average schmuck from the Midwest. I'm sorry our weak tastebuds are fucking up your options.
It's not your fault. The taco bell one really tucked me off, though. The first summer it was out was a limited time thing. It was actually a bit spicy. A lot more spicy than anything else a fast food chain had.
But then when they brought it back permanently it wasn't half as spicy as it was. Taco Bell has like 5 fucking bland ass sauces now, and three of them taste about the same. What's the damned point? FU taco bell. You could have left me with at least one option besides all your ketchup with tobacco sauce mixed in. No wonder I've only been there like 4 times in the last year.
Yeah, I remember thinking the diablo one was pretty hot for my taste but now it's the one I go with. I didn't know they changed it, I thought I might have developed some tolerance lol. It's gotten way too expensive for what it is anyway.
Yeah. They buy cheaper stuff, and charge more for it. I can't stand the taste of their trash burrito shells they went to. Then, they charge twice as much for just a bean burrito and give you half the filling, even though it's just super cheap refried beans.
In my part of the world 2x is weak, the challenges were doing 3x 😂
I've never seen 3x, but I've gotten the 4x before. It wasn't much hotter than the 2x, really.
At some point, your tongue is numb anyway.
With laptop making, that’s a lot though. Economies of scale are a huge factor there.
Comes from the corporate mindset where only growth is good. Just existing as a company that's makes stuff for a small group of people is somehow 'incorrect' to these crazy people.
How many laptops are enterprise purchases as well? Those dont get fixed.
It may be, but that doesn't resemble what they said. Presumably that is a less clickbaity headline.
That argument falls flat because Android rose to prominence on the backs of enthusiast recommendations.
So few that if you order one now you only have to wait til October to get it.
Well, what is hundreds of thousands as a percentage of the overall market? Like if they sold hundreds of thousands of grains of rice, that's "almost nothing" compared to the rest of the rice that got sold
"Most of the market" includes the segments of commercial support contracts for office laptops which Framework doesn't even target. Then you have the next biggest which is "go to Costco/Walmary/bestbuy and get what is on sale. So Framework simply cannot be a majority brand without those.
Among the remaining segment, e.g., developers that get to shop around and buy whatever they want? Its fairly popular.
I don’t understand what you mean in your first point. There are clear pathways for companies and schools to buy in bulk on the framework website. Not saying that FW is successful in that way but it is there.
I agree on your second point but would tie it to marketing. Having your laptop on sale at Costco is a marketing strategy, which for better or for worse, FW doesn’t do right now (and probably doesn’t have the ability to do)
In no context is hundreds of thousands of people "almost nobody".
I mean, Dell is the #3 in laptop sales and sells roughly 30 million laptops per year. So yeah, Framework is roughly 0% of market share. I know this is a very tech enthusiast heavy website, but there are certain realities that people should face. It's like saying Nothing Phone is going to remotely compete with Apple. It's not a fair or valid comparison in the first place. I think a more fair comparison for Framework (beyond what they are hoping to achieve) would be with a small system builder like System 76, XMG or the likes.
This is not a reality anyone needs to "face", it's just an intentionally poor choice of words.
In many contexts it is.
Windows Phone sold millions of phones, yet it was almost nobody in terms of the market, and as such basically no app developers supported it.
Wrong
XDA is pretty much slop these days.
I didn't know they existed, so that might be a factor too. Need some better advertising
Advertising is expensive as hell. Probably not a huge budget. The products kinda sell themselves in the right circles.
I'm increasingly comfortable being in n the almost nobody category. You should be too, after all almost nobody uses Lemmy.
It's nice here.
Makes me think how much I wanted to play mutliplayer games as a kid. I always played single because all my games were err, yknow.
Then I got to play MP little by little only to realize I hate everyone. Teammates in shooters are almost always idiots. People raid me in online RPG's because I dare not log in at 7 AM daily. My friends are impatient as fuck playing open world games like Minecraft, it always ends in 2 weeks. Nobody can agree what game to play. They tell me how they argued and broke up with their so and so as I'm fighting for my life in the trenches of battlefield 1, like I give a damn.
Now I play by myself in that little "almost nobody" and I'm happier than I ever was in multiplayer...
I want one real, real bad. But buying anything with RAM and SSDs in it right now is off the table.
I also want a Steam Machine and an AM5 based desktop. Also not gonna happen.
That's the thing: it's one of the few laptops you can buy without RAM and disk (of course only usable if you have these parts already)
Yeah. I get it. I don't have any spare DDR5 SODIMMS or Samsung EVO m.2s laying around.
The point is that I won't be upgrading anything anytime soon, and probably a lot of other people are in the same boat. I would love a Framework 16.
Unless you're in the top right branch of our current K shaped economy, most people won't be buying a Framework or a Steam Machine or upgrading their gaming rig right now.
I want one too
Exactly, I wanted to buy the new fully metal body pro model so bad but the prices are stupid high because of the shortages caused by the AI grift
It do be like that
The article is clanker slop. It's mostly reiterative, a clear sign of clanker slop. Clankers are reiterative in their slop. A lot of clanker slop is reiterative.
That's an excellent point, and you're right to push back on this. Let me make an honest evaluation of the situation.
Not all reiterative spamlike garbage is clanker slop. Some of it is deliberately written to prioritize SEO over respecting the reader or producing anything of quality. Either way thanks for giving me the heads-up not to give them any of my time.
AKA some of it is meatslop
I'd say we had more meatslop two years ago than we have clankerslop today, though the clankers are gaining share...
That's where the clankers learned it.
It felt repetitive to me too lol. I thought it scrolled back up to the top of something.
I think they're just too expensive. It might be worth it in the long run, but a lot of people can't justify the up front cost.
This is it average consumer laptop shops filtering by price and then value for that price if they’re tech savvy at all lol
Framework targeted a niche out the gate if they expected mass adoption in their business plan they misunderstood the market they were competing in
If we remove the capitalistic pov it’s a different game but we live in the delulu we do
From a comparison I saw, you can buy two complete laptops with the same specs as one framework. Its hard to justify an upgradable laptop at that point.
Thanks to “look up” (value engineering) the I can buy the cheap one twice is more required than ever before lol! I can’t speak to frameworks build quality
I’m also a used to dunk on apple products guy then I bought a MacBook Pro and honestly insert windows laptop here experience is just worse in every way “out of the box” 😂
Stupid sleep state settings and updates on battery - looking at you Samsung Galaxy crap trying to catch itself on fire in my backpack with a near dead battery every time I tried to use it lolol
Nailed it. The cost doesn't really make sense when you can have two functional laptops when you upgrade, so the prior one becomes a backup, a home lab server, etc. I know they have ways of making the prior pieces functional, but again at increased cost.
Never mind the fact I just plain almost never need to repair anything on my laptop because I take care not to damage it in the first place. The last laptop I had to repair anything on was one I bought in 2005, and it wasn't even anything essential - just a pretty piece of the exterior that became unglued.
The mainboards work stand-alone. There are free STLs to print a case for it or you can buy a case from them.
Basically replacing the mainboard gives you another small PC to use as a desktop/living room/server device. You obviously still need RAM and storage though.
I own a framework 13 and I replaced the mainboard once (due to an issue, they replaced it) and it took less than 10 minutes to swap. It's expensive for what it is, but in support of their vision I was willing to pay premium for it.
They also argue that they need these high prices due to low volumes with the goal of bringing prices down to be more competitive eventually.
I was able to get a used one cheap for under 600€, used it for a while and now have upgraded the hinges, speakers, battery, keyboard and motherboard along with more RAM and a larger SSD. It’s the perfect PC builder’s laptop.
That's the Vimes Boots economic theory right there
Exactly. Great idea, nice execution. But as much as I want one, I can't justify the cost. It'd be fantastic if a modular setup became standard. Upgradeable laptops would be great for the environment.
Yes, pretend it's something wrong with the right idea (a repairable /upgradable device) and not the fact that America took a giant, wet trump all over the entire economy and a combo meal at mcdonalds is $16 with a small, non-refillabke drink and everything else is exponentially fucked from there.
Give us a reasonable pre-trump PC market, with this being a slight premium above that, do projections to normalize cost of ownership over say 10 years and it would grow. But we live here, so no.
Please make a post in response to this one because you really got your stuff together on knowing facts
Edit: Not a jab at post OP either just saying we need repairable laptops and when it becomes norm even cheaper ones will be good
You think trump caused, or even had anything to do with current pc prices? 🤣
You'd have to be borderline mentally invalid to ignore the impact trump has had on the entirety of American business and the economy, let alone the RAM crisis him and his loser AI cronies are causing.
You think Trump is responsible for AI companies buying all the RAM and SSDs?
TDS at its best.
Donald Trump's administration literally writes the laws of the country and can absolutely limit and regulate AI companies but they chose not to and in fact paid open AI in government contracts for their garbage.
Do you even know anything about this subject or are you just hoping trump sees this and offers to let you suck his little weenie?
So you think they should have made laws to stop AI companies from buying hardware? Based on what? Why?
You can’t blame an administration for companies buying things from other companies in bulk lol. You do not want a government making ad-hoc laws to stop things like that, that is an absolutely insane thing to even suggest.
It has nothing to do with trump. How about you try and look at things not just through a “how can I blame this on trump?” lense?
A few AI companies made deals for future fabrication from a literal oligopoly of RAM makers.
Consumers are getting locked out, are you even paying attention?
Buying years worth of future fabrication for shit that other industries and consumers need is anti competitive as fuck.
Bro open a fucking book for 5 minutes or something holy shit you're dense.
I think he's saying, in this particular instance is that Trump's fault? It's B2B, and probably would have happened regardless of who's POTUS (see GPU shortages under Biden's term).
Don't get me wrong, Trump is totally interventionist as long as it personally benefits his family. But this far he's not made any plays wrt to supply/demand of hardware. From whats been officially released, the only interventionism he's done wrt AI companies is get then them to have backdoors and be used for military applications.
Anti competitive? What? Lol. How?
RAM makers are free to sell their entire allocation to a single buyer if they want. You’re telling me that you want the government to make laws to prevent that? What would that law look like?
Do you even realise what you’re saying? You want the government to come in and tell companies who to sell their product to and how much they get. That is absolutely fucking laughable. That’s not what a government is for lol
Unironically accusing someone of having TDS in 2026 sure is a sight to behold.
Accusing trump of causing the AI RAM-pocalypse is nothing other than TDS.
Moving the goalposts from PC prices being higher to the rampocolypse just to lick boots harder is the real tds.
This is kinda like when I saw a piece of plywood nailed awkwardly to a tree with some shit about tDS spray painted on it. Showing your own ass there bud.
RAM-pocalypse is why PC prices are higher 🤣🤡🤣🤡
Tariffs made many things more expensive for consumers including computers and parts, yes.
Tariffs have nothing to do with it, clearly, when countries other than the US have the same prices and issues with RAM and other pc parts.
So when I work with the procurement department to make accurate cost estimates based on tariffs, specifically, that's just a hallucination. Good thing I have Internet trolls to snap me out of it.
Tariffs on RAM and semiconductors haven’t even started yet you turkey lol.
As I said, RAM prices have exploded all over the world. Trumps tariffs don’t affect other countries. They exploded BEFORE any tariffs were announced. The announced tariffs haven’t even begun being enforced yet lol
Bullshit. There's been 20-25% tarrifs on ALL goods from China, Mexico, and Canada.
There have not. Google it. Google tariffs on ram.
One of the ram manufacturers is in America btw.
So it's not serving the bottom-feeder market for effectively disposable Windows laptops.
Why should it need to? Serving a niche interest is perfectly valid as long as you're making enough money at it to be self-supporting. Despite what the line-go-up-at-all-costs advocates think.
They also have a 12" laptop for the lower end market.
When friends or family ask my opinion on what computer to buy, I have two recommendations.
1 - Frame.work with Linux on it
2 - Macbook
Unless you're tight on cash, those are the two best options. Heck, even if you are tight on cash, get a used version of either of the above, you'll probably do just fine.
Unless you're REALLY tight on cash, then get an ebay thinkpad and load linux.
Was recently asked for hardware preferences for a new job and my list was basically that. Framework with Linux -> MacBook -> Some other Linux Laptop - Windows.
Used Thinkpad is also a solid alternative if the power of apple silicon is not needed
Kinda disappointed in the recent Thinkpads since they removed deep sleep and only have sleep to idle which is garbage in my experience. I ended up re-enabling hibernate because it would get less than 8 hours on battery while sleeping and would cook in my bag once put into sleep. The framework (at least the 13 not sure on the pro) still supports deep as far as I'm aware.
this can also work because they will at some point get sold down for lower prices so it's not like people that can't afford a new one can't buy a second hand one. A SH framework will be better than any shitty other laptop in the long run.
motherfuckers acting like those laptops aren't five hundred bajillion dollars
I have a framework 13. Last week I noticed my battery had gone spicy pillow. Screwed it open, removed the battery and ordered a new one. A few days later I got the new battery, put it in and screwed everything back together. Took me less than 30 minutes in total, got original parts and not some sketchy Amazon crap, was less complicated than repairing my desktop PC. This is how you do repairable tech.
I’m thinking of a framework for my next machine but I have been using laptops for decades. Still have a Linux one from 2014. None of them get spicy pillow. So… just luck of the draw?
I guess. I've had a hp convertible previously and it also got the spicy pillow. Just my luck I guess. The difference was, that the hp one had shifty screws and lots of glue and the case was permanently deformed by the expanding battery. In comparison the experience with my framweork was just so much better
I have my fw13 plugged in almost all the time. So I set the battery max charge to 60%.
If I really need more juice, I can set it back to 100, but I basically never need that.
Amazing. I did the same on my 2012 macbook air, and a friend's Asus notebook. My 2019 Lenovo is still going strong, I expect to get 10y of lifetime out of it. Oh, and Lenovo spare parts are dime a dozen. I have rebuilt old Lenovos multiple times in my life, typically by buying a broken donor machine.
So exactly what is the business case for buying a Framework Notebook?
(Yes, they are really beautiful, cool and I'd WANT one. But there always was a better option to buy, for one reason - price: used Lenovo, portability: MacBook Air)
Was the battery covered by warranty?
I don't know if It generally is, I've already had my framework for some years, so the warranty was already expired.
I* want* to buy one. But:
Even if I could afford ram, that doesn't even mean I can afford a framework laptop. I've looked at them every time I've thought about buying a laptop, but they're just so damn expensive and I already have a perfectly good desktop.
I hear you. My philosophy changed about 20years ago when Apple switched to Intel:
Mac laptops are expensive, but I regularly get 4-6 years from them without too much drama if I simply max out the ram when I buy them.
My thinking of my eventual move to Linux full time, a Framework or System76 machine costs similar to a Mac, and use the same Max ram philosophy.
I just wish the build quality was just a bit better for the price, but I'm willing to trade a little for user serviceability...
My problem with apple is that they're a shitty anti-consumer company, so i won't ever buy anything from them. (I also just really dislike macos. have to use it for work now and jesus it is awful)
Honestly if the average person can’t buy it at Best Buy or Target, they won’t. Most people don’t know about this stuff.
Wherever a random coworker or family member asks me which of two laptops to buy, it’s always between a couple of prebuilt machine at a big box retailer.
I love the idea of Framework myself, but I can’t afford to buy one.
Too niche for the average buyer, too expensive for the rest of us.
This is rage bait
They are expensive up front. I have one of the first 11th generation Intel ones. I bought a new CPU fan last year instead of getting a new laptop. One of my kids dropped it, and I'll need a new screen for it here soon.
Instead of buying 3 laptops, I bought 1 and repaired it. Super worth it.
I own one 🤷♂️ they’re expensive but I’d recommend em nonetheless
Who would have thought a more expensive, more premium product would have a hard time finding customers during a time when people are struggling to pay bills and cant even afford the non-existent dollar menu at mcdonalds anymore.
I wanted to buy one, but they are veeery expensive, almost twice for a similarly specd laptop. Plus thet don't offer OLED screens.
I went to see to compare against a Thinkpad (E14).
Framework Laptop 13: $1140 for the Ultra 5 125H, 8GB, 256GB Lenovo E15: $1120 for the Ultra 5 225u 16GB, 256GB
Lenovo price is a "sale" on their site off the "list price" of $1340
Framework wins:
Framework loses: No Core 5 in stock. I don't need a 7, that's $2-300 I don't need to spend
Framework Neutral: No 256SSD in stock. But I do have the option to get no SSD and just buy my own. Arguably a win for me but not ideal for some
I'm unclear if Laptop 13 is the correct comparison vs a Laptop 13 Pro. The E14 is a mid-tier pro model, not a top of the line, which is where I tend to chill with laptops since they're not my dailies anyway).
Anyway, as someone shopping for a laptop, I see that prices are the same. Given this, Framework wins.
HOWEVER: If I was actually shopping for a laptop, I would buy a used older-model E14 on Ebay for say $400. I know it would last, they're repairable, and for the cost I could buy spare parts now. Because this is a secondary (1/week) device for me, I wouldn't spend $1100 on a laptop in general. Not when Thinkpads are ppossibly the next-most-repairable laptop out there.
Ultimate calculus - Framework isn't for me. Yet.
Now, if I had the money for activism? Sure, let's get more of these into the 2nd hand market, stop the waste. Or no second hand market at all, just upgrade like a Desktop.
At some point, I may have no need for a desktop. At that point, $1100 for a primary PC is a good price, esp if I can build on it. If I was a laptop user, me who like custo and upgradeability - Framework is a fair value, good price even.
Anyway, to the point of the comment chain above me, I would say it's a 1:1 price. If you're shopping in that spec range anyway. If you need lower spec than Core Ultra 5H, say Ultra/Ryzen 3U, Framework doesn't target that audience - and neither do quality [major] OEMs (you might find a great sale somewhere of course). But basically a well-built mid-tier laptop just costs $1000-$1200 new these days (I'd have said $800-$1000 before the price hikes recently).
Edit3: I thought about it and you're right, the point is irrelevant in the context of this thread. Really should have been a separate comment re/ the target market.
The cheapest 32 GB + 1 TB + 1 HDMI + 1 USB A + 2 USB C + Charger + Windows 11 model I found is the Framework 12, which has a slower CPU than my actual laptop. Those specs costs $1400 USD, shipping to my country would cost some extra $100 USD. I bought my Lenovo laptop with those + OLED display for $900 + shipping. Fair, is not double the price, but also far more than $150 USD.
I like the idea of owning one. Then I see the prices and I compare them with the prices of refurbished ThinkPads... (No, I don't need a new laptop)
Nothing wrong with buying a used machine.
I bought one because I want to support modular/repairable tech. At the time I had the disposable income for it. I dig it.
Samsies. I also got the amd version that came out before the AI 300 stuff, so it was discounted, which was nice
What's surreal is that I bought it before the RAM prices spiked up. I could probably sell a ram stick now (48gb) for nearly half the price of a regular laptop. It's absurd.
What about buying a used framework?
The reason used ThinkPads are so easy to find in good condition at bargain prices is because management in corporations just lease them for 3-5 years and continuously replace them even if they don't actually need to do so. They probably don't even know that they can last decades but accounting wants a lease, so they get a lease.
There isn't a similar "infinite supply" of used frameworks that constantly drives prices down
Well, supporting DHH doesn't really help their case either...
It really bothers me that this shit is never mentioned or gets drowned out whenever people talk about Framework laptops. We should absolutely name and shame anyone who donates to alt-right nutheads that sincerely believe in "White replacement" bs.
What's wrong with dhh btw?
white supremacist
Far right? I mean I don't know if that's enough for me, but he's not really making anything I would use anyways. But honestly business people should just keep politics to themselves
I was considering a framework but realized i didn't need a laptop. lol
Would like one, though!
I haven't needed to buy a laptop since the company existed. If I did they'd be a strong contender
I have but I didn't consider them because retailers don't carry them and I'm not buying a laptop I've never tried typing on to make sure the keyboard isn't ass.
I own a 13" AMD version, the keyboard is very good.
I've heard all sorts of bad advice on various keyboards/hardware from other people. I don't trust anyone's judgement but my own when it comes to that.
The trouble with other people's recs is taste. What you think is an awesome keyboard I might hate and vice versa, your right you really need to test drive it urself to decide. Otherwise it's like buying a car you have never sat in sight unseen and praying it's as good as people tell you.
Yeah. I get the feeling most people are willing to settle for a lower standard or are looking for different things in a product than I am, if they're even critical of the things they buy at all. It explains how enshittification has been so successful.
Framework's keyboard is widely considered to be one of the best laptop keyboards available on the market, based on loads of reviews and personal opinions shared online (and my own experience).
Probably not relevant right now, but in the worst case, if you got one and hated it, they have a 30-day return policy.
Can anyone educate me on this? What happens if the company goes bust? Can I still swap the CPU and GPU on it, or am I entirely relying on parts made by Framework?
Actually other companies are making framework compatible parts now. There are third party ports and third party mainboards available now.
Their design is open source, you can make your own if you want to. I've 3d printed parts for my frame.work using their published specs.
Thank you, I'm sold
Here's the third party mainboard that's available today. Nice thing is they don't have to design a whole laptop to experiment with a new architecture, cause they can just build off Frame.Work's... framework.
https://deepcomputing.io/product/dc-roma-risc-v-mainboard-iii/
This crowdfunded solution has new expansion cards (like a double type-c) and also a laptop dock that uses expansion cards so you can customize your own dock.
https://dockframe.com/
A little over a year ago, Prusa partnered with them to make a framework 3d printing contest. The winner was an open source project to use a frame.work mainboard to build a SteamDeck clone.
https://www.printables.com/contest/449-framework-computer-mainboard-case
Uuuh, the dock is nice. Never knew someone build a docking station for framework components. Thanks for the link
I'm a little concerned about the lack of updates. I'm not sure about what their planned timeline is.
Yeah the crowdfunding is supposed to start "soon™", but no mention of what that means. Let's see, maybe they'll open source the schematics if it doesn't work out
Did a little more digging, and they're actually really active on the frame.work forums. Their last post was only a week ago.
Progress looks very promising.
https://community.frame.work/t/dockframe-modular-usb-c-hub-with-framework-compatible-expansion-cards/78648/34
My wallet did not need to find out about that dock but I have been considering one...
The company is absolutely not "going bust". In fact they often have trouble producing enough to keep up with demand. They're just not going to blow away Dell or HP anytime soon.
It was a hypothetical. If their product becomes unusable without them, I wouldn't have considered their products particularly repairable. But I got my answer above, and I'm happy. Will consider a framework when my Thinkpad says goodnight.
Just want to say, I bought a framework 13 and it's fantastic. Been running arch off of it for two years and it's been a workhorse.
It was expensive comparable to a similar specced PC at the time but I make enough to vote with my wallet so that's what I did. I think anyone who has the money but doesn't, simply because there's a better deal that's worse for the environment and the makers of the item, while holding a right to repair or anti-corporate mindset are hypocritical at best.
The world gets better if we make it that way, and I see buying a framework (if you have the extra money) as a small step in a better direction.
Real talk. I fixed laptops for years. I'm not sure that I can justify the price with these.
A nucish box and portable monitor is cheaper.
I'm real interested in this as I'm currently shopping.
The real thing to consider here is upgradability. Thinkpads are pretty OK to repair but no upgrades. For that I'd consider Framework.
Unfortunately I don't want an x86 laptop. x86 desktops only beat apple silicon laptops when GPU becomes involved, x86 laptops are nowhere near as good as apple silicon laptops.
Are people still using x86?
ARM is still extremely fragmented.
When there are ARM vendors selling SystemReady at SR levels for a similar price to x86, it will be at the point it could take over
RISC-V RVA22 is interesting, but not a lot of options yet, either
The Ampere CPUs are nice. They have lots of cores running at a high clock speed, lots of PCIe lanes and socketed ECC RAM.
Realistically, an actual laptop form factor is really important for some folks (including me).
Check out your local 2nd hand listings. You might get lucky with someone selling a used one at half price. At which point their lack of ram or storage becomes a much more palatable upgrade problem rather than a deal breaker.
I legit used to carry my mini PC back and fourth from office to home. Brix 4770r, when loaded it sounded like a vacuum, all office guys were making fun of me. Good times.
But legit, I'm surprised noone builds laptops from desktop components. I don't care if it's huge. Just give me that
did you have a padded lunch pail to carry it in? that would've been such a sight. a little bento server.
Clevo did help other companies to OEM/ODM laptops with desktop CPU and sometimes with modular GPU module. But it's super rare in the current laptop market.
The power consumption and the heat might also limited the performance they can give.
They're building desktops with laptop components.
Most laptop failure is physical damage to the enclosure or the board pops and the only thing that matters is getting OEM. Plus you can have a nice keyboard.
Framework is great, but it's just so insanely expensive.
I was buying a new laptop about 2 years ago. A framework one cost more than twice the price of a regular ultrabook with comparable (but better) specs.
Sure, you pay more for a Framework, and you can upgrade it later instead of buying a new laptop. Makes sense, but even then - a Framework one is more expensive than 2 laptops with similar specs. It only gets cheaper on the third upgrade. Which for me may be 10 years away.
Personally I'm not thrilled about investing in a laptop that will pay off in a decade. Who knows what laptops will be like by that time. Hell, it's not unconceivable that devices like Framework will be outlawed. Or that Framework goes out of business.
It might make sense for people who upgrade often, but I don't. Or for people who don't, but are wealthy enough to pay the premium anyway. If anything, I feel like having a Framework would make me want to upgrade more often, which would be a waste of money.
Even if they do, they use mostly off-the-shelf components, and the designs for the stuff that isn't are open-sourced. You can still repair them even if Framework doesn't exist.
I've swapped the Main board and WiFi chip in a framework laptop. Swap the ports regularly. It can have a few quirks to get used to. It is wildly worthwhile to me now that Dell has decided nothing can be repaired anymore. Those who say they take care of their laptop likely do try and one should but it is survivorship bias imho. Accidents happen unintentionally that is why they are called accidents.
Spent over two decades repairing laptops... I'm unlikely to purchase anything but framework for years going forward. Now if we could just get the framework printer :P The upfront cost is high they are still a small manufacturer. The long term value is working out well for me.
Yeah, you can certainly get cheaper laptops, but if you're looking for similar build quality, it's not that much more
I would also say, for me, the peace of mind with how easy it is to fix is worth it. I used to stress over my wife or nephew or someone wanting to do something on my laptop, but now if they poke the screen with their finger I just think I can fix it in 5 minutes if they mess it up
I know a lawyer who just ordered one.
He's got disposable income, he wants a decent windows based laptop for his work, he liked the repairability angle.
This isn't for just tech enthusiasts.
A key difference, especially of late.
The idea of buying a Framework, just to put Windows on it, rubs me the wrong way haha
It's a step.
Step 1: new hardware (Framework), familiar OS (Windows)
Step 2: familiar hardware (Framework), new OS (Linux)
Step 3: "I use Arch Linux, btw."
I can't afford that kind of money on a laptop!
I'm a Linux nerd FFS... I've never owned a new laptop in my life!
If I were god king of (USA/Europe/Asia...the Universe), I would subsidize repairable laptops. It would save resources in the long run, for both humanity and the planet.
I literally found out about these today. If the price isn't astronomical, and they have a model that suits my needs, I'll look into purchasing one
Unfortunately tariffs make them much more expensive in the US. I bought my barebones (no ram/ssd) framework 16 in 2024 for roughly $1800, but now a comparable 16 is well over $2100. Still worth it imo, but damn does that price hurt. As an aside, I love my 16, but had I realized how difficult it is to travel with it I would have gotten the 13
I was looking for a new laptop recently and considered framework, exactly because of repairability/upgradeability. They are just too expensive for what you get, buying used enterprise model is a lot more economical and powerful. I ended with thinkpad p1 gen 5 that was essentially new with 64 RAM, rtx 3080 ti laptop for ~$1100. And you can replace everything easily but the motherboard.
This is the real issue IMO, framework mainly appeals to the environmental crowd and economical crowd. Problem is buying used corporate workstations is way better for both these markets + it doesnt even seem like the motherboard upgrades are much cheaper than just buying a new used laptop. Maybe with terrible ssd prices the calculus changes, but you still need to upgrade ram on a new board anyway. Hardware just doesn't improve on the 2-4 year timescales to justify this anymore.
Well put, I change computers every 4-5 years and there is little reason to change motherboard. It would be great if possibility existed to easily swap CPU but we don't have this and changing motherboard just doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
speaking of Framework. did anything turn out of their "big tent" approach as they were saying it? was there any continuation of that thing?
for those who have no idea, there was some controversy around Framework when they were collaborating with omarchy and its founder of some specific beliefs
This is the actual reason I won't buy one. I'm willing to pay extra for a product that goes against the current and offers repairability and modularity. But the way they handled that situation makes me not want to see them ever again. I'll stick to used Thinkpads.
My Thinkpad X1 Carbon 6th Gen is quite repairable thank you very much, and it was like 400 bucks, and it comes with an i7, 16gb of ram, and a 256gb ssd. It's only marketing that has people convinced they will fall behind unless they have the latest and greatest.
The Lenovo spare parts program is great. OEM replacement screen saved my X1C6th, as all aftermarket panels were bad quality TN
How much? With what money?
Come now, these products that cost 3x what they should don't get to claim it did not work out due to lack of demand. No one has pissing away money anymore and products made for some odd not rich but well off tech people is just not going to happen.
That’s because they’re really expensive and actually quite mediocre. I really wanted to love my framework, but the build quality is way worse than the price tag would suggest.
I've had mine for years, repaired and upgraded it, and I love it!
To be clear, I’m not saying their laptops are bad. I’m saying they’re mediocre and overpriced. They’ve got some really neat features, like how easy they are to repair and upgrade, but if the price of buying one laptop from them, then upgrading it once is the same as buying three comparable traditional laptops, then I really don’t see the point.
The price isn't that much more. You can easily compare that.
The price is 38% higher than a comparable ASUS laptop. That also doesn’t include Windows. (Which is how I would buy it, but most people would want Windows on it.)
Now let’s say you upgrade it. That’s another $600 for a new motherboard down the road, plus maybe new ram and ssd, but we’ll say it stays on DDR5. That’s $2570 for the laptop and one upgrade, compared to $2460 if you buy two ASUSes. And what do you get for that money?
Framework:
ASUS (or, just normal laptops I guess):
When your Framework has a problem with the screen, you buy a new screen for 300.
When your ASUS has a problem with the screen, you buy a new laptop. Which isn't going to be on special at the time.
I’ve fixed tons of screens on laptops. Generally it’s harder than Framework, true, but it’s not impossible. Even if you have to pay a shop $800 to fix the screen, you’re still coming out cheaper than the Framework.
There’s zero financial reason to buy a Framework, ever. It will not save you any money. That being said, some people want to buy them to support the company, or because they like the repairability/upgradability, and sure, those are valid reasons to buy them. But don’t spread lies saying it will save you money. They are expensive products with mediocre build quality.
yeah, computer repair people are not exactly the target audience. Enjoy your ASUS I guess.
I have bought and returned 2 framework laptops. They are repairable but they are also questionable build quality.
The screen on the Framework 12 is very subpar and the size and weight throw it out of being a light laptop.
Despite saying how good Linux support was running NixOS on the replacement Framwork 13 was not great either. Wireless drops and countless reports of drops on their forums with zero responses or workarounds. Most people buy replacement wireless adapters cause the one Framework ships just doesn't work.
On top of that the laptop just feel cheap with a steep price. I have hope for the new Pro, but we'll have to see if it's any good because so far I am pretty dissapointed with Framework.
Well, so far I've been fine with below €200 used ThinkPad. The gold standard of Linux computing.
On the other hand, I live in luxury with my eye-watering $400 refurb Thinkpad. Seriously, I can't even imagine spending more than a grand on a laptop.
That is the main reason I haven't gotten a framework either. It's hard to compete with used especially when it already has your top feature.
I would gladly buy one, if i had disposable income.
TLDR: Fuck "AI"
I was in the market for a 14'' work laptop and I so DESPERATELY wanted to buy a Framework but I couldn't thanks to a combination of all the AI bullshit driving up memory prices, Framework still being on the Series 1 Intel Ultra chips, and their global availability not quite being there (this bit is understandable for a relatively new company). I ended up buying a base 14'' MacBook Pro M5 even though I wanted to stay on Linux simply because it was the only thing with good perf, crazy good battery, and good build quality that was priced semi-reasonably even though it's on the opposite end of the repairability spectrum.
Even now a comparable Framework (Intel Ultra X7 358H, 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD) costs ~$150 more than what I paid for my Mac, assuming I can even get it shipped to where I am, and the regional pricing/taxes doesn't push the price higher. Kinda crazy because it's on the more reasonable side of things if memory serves. Dell XPS costs even more.
I hope this memory crisis gets sorted because I never thought I'd see the day that Apple became the budget option. Maybe I'll sell my Mac and get a Framework then because as much as I love using the Mac, I still hate being at Apple's mercy if anything breaks or if I need an upgrade.
https://dam.stanford.edu/memory-prices.html
Looks like pretty normal market fluctuation. Not a crisis.
Quite normal, yes. Especially the prices for DDR4 and DDR5, the most commonly used RAM types in consumer laptops/desktops
I don't know how old "abc" is, but it's particularly painful for those of us who remember $100 going from getting us a 32Kb RAM pack, to 1Mb, to 64Mb, to 256Mb, to 1Gb, to 16Gb, and then just fucking stop for ten years, and now going back to no longer being able to even get us 16Gb any more. It's like stuff stopped getting better a decade ago, and everything is being made worse by the greed of rich arseholes
I can't think of a single system I've built where I even considered the cheapest RAM options.
In late December of 2023 when there was a glut of RAM on the market, I purchased 24 64G ECC DDR5 sticks for $188 each. I split them between two production servers I was building for a cluster. In early 2025 I was setting a third and they had rose to $318 each.
I checked last night and found the price for new was $2,700 a stick.
How is this a fluctuation?
Yeah market fluctuation regularly explains prices more than quintupling while supply vaporizes overnight. The fuck are you smoking?
Logarithmic scales are notorious for hiding spikes.
I would love to have a Framework laptop. Those things are awesome as hell.
Unfortunately, my very old laptop that I've torn down and repaired over a dozen times is still kicking. And spending $100 to fix it is cheaper than spending a gazillion dollars on a new Framework.
It would be very wasteful to get rid of my current laptop to replace it with a Framework.
Lmk when they're corebooted.
Otherwise I'll stick with system76 or starlabs.
They are just too expensive, and it's hard to justify that price when popular brand have models with good level of reparaibility. For example the new Lenovo T14 Gen 7 got a 10/10 on iFixit.
Value for money on what timescale? Most seem to only think about the price vs the functionality a few days after purchase. Longer term, the ability to upgrade and repair components instead of pitching the whole thing would be higher value for money, but that's not how most consumers think.
A compact design is nice, but not the be-all-end-all if Framework can get in a reasonable size/weight range.
Battery life is an oxymoron here... the main issue I have with laptop battery life is after a few years of use it dwindles, eventually to zero. When the battery isn't replaceable, or is a proprietary form factor which costs nearly as much as a new laptop - that results in horrible battery life and value for money performance, but does generate new unit sales for non-repairable laptops.
This proves that making a product twice as expensive actually does decrease sales significantly if you aren't Apple.
Honestly, why would I spend thousands on a framework, when I can spend 3x less or more, with a used thinkpad, that is already fairly repairable?
If I was rich, sure, I'd buy a framework in a heartbeat, but am not rich, yet . . . . . . .
This may seem weird but I dislike the aspect ratio of their screens.
I have a desktop with 16:9 monitors and a laptop with 16:10.
Those are close enough that your workflow doesn't really change. But 2:3 is different enough it makes a difference.
That and for what they are they're crazy expensive. So I went for a Slimbook (kinda the Spanish version of Tuxedo). They're not perfect but I found them "good enough".
Framework's whole thing is upgradable laptops. The increased cost is what you pay for the upgradable platform instead of buying a new laptop.
Repairability has already been proven multiple times by several OEMs like Lenovo.
Even if the repair process itself becomes tedious, the mark of a quality OEM is offering parts and schematics that allow repair shops to disgnose and fix broken machines.
Unlike Apple, which actively prohibits their vendors from selling any parts to anyone except Apple.
let me guess: the devices live 2x as long but cost 3x as much?
It was like that with older models. Newer models make more sense economically.
Actually, excluding current craziness around ram/drives their prices were pretty comparable, at least to Dell when I checked last year.
I got a Framework 13 that originally came with an 11th Gen Intel mainboard in it for free. It suffered a mainboard failure.
Swapped the mainboard with a Ryzen board, installed some used DDR5 from eBay and reused all of the other components. Now I have a Framework 13 for around $500 and it's likely the last laptop I'll ever need to own, if I can keep upgrading it every few years.
s/willing/can afford/
The idea of repairable notebooks sound good, except it's done by getting filtered through the tech bro lens. Still an ultrabook, the ports must be interchangeable modules to amaze the investors/users.
I'M nobody!!!!
To me it is that i upgrade to few times so the laptop would be 10 years old and then everything is out of date. Maybe upgrade battery in between. However, I guess these are really good in the used(resold) market.
I want one but I just got a refurbished thinkpad for like $350 and I'm trying to be a little more financially responsible than I was in the past. That being said I recently spent $2k on a 3D printer so maybe I'm not doing that well with the financial responsibility. I would love to get their 13 pro whenever it's in my budget.
I still have my 17" Satellite l300. Still runs briskly. On its third battery.
I bought a 13" years ago. I thought I would have upgraded the cpu/motherboard, battery, speakers, screen by now but I could never justify the cost for the benefit. So it is the same as the day I bought it. I have bought cheap laptops for kids schooling and had to replace one for what would have been a repairable fault on a Framework but there is a massive price difference and could not justify another Framework. It is a shame. Their stuff needs to be a lot cheaper but it is a chicken and egg with volume.
When they made a cheap "chromebook" class plastic school laptop for kids it ended up costing more than a vastly more powerful mac (even before Apple released their cheap models). The low volume manufacturing had heaps of problems reported on their forums. Its strictly for the fans sadly. People with lots of disposable income who buy one in every colour. I would have loved to buy a similar looking product at a mainstream price and with modern specs but it makes no sense with current cost of living pressures.
so it doesnt work
They’re on my list the next time I need one.
They have always offered preconfigured options right at the front though
I don't buy notebooks. Only used older Thinkpads, particularly for coreboot/libreboot support.
Not in the market for a laptop currently but I do intend to keep them in mind since I use Linux.
Not readily available in Australia, I associate it with Linus (not torvalds), they're expensive, and god knows if Trump does weird export import stuff the moment it ships, and if it needs repair, nobody would be unsurprised if Trump made us pay to ship it back
Framework have been available in Australia for years. A few years back I ordered one and it shipped from Taiwan to regional South Australia in about a week. I was pissed off because they almost beat an order from PCcasegear. They are manufactured in and ship from Taiwan, not trumpistan.
It's available. But, still ships from overseas last I checked.
US company though apparently, but didn't realise they ship from Taiwan.
One thing that is interesting, is you can get a riscv board and an arm board. Would be good if they have an elite Broadcom board though
I bought one for myself, and a high spec one for my wife's business. Mine is just a personal machine but I've been using it as a portable home server in my various moves. Very happy with both. They didn't seem a crazy amount more than similar spec machines in Europe
They wont ship to my locale and actively block frieight forwarders, otherwise I would happily give them $10k for a couple high end computers.
Yikes, XDA's reporting has really gone downhill since being bought out.
I haven't owned a laptop since smartphones and tablets took off. It's become a redundant form factor. Framework would be my go to choice if I ever did need one though.
How do you write anything long-form on a tablet? You seem to live a different life than me, if you find laptops redundant.
I haven't written anything long form since I left school about 15 years ago.
You can plug in a keyboard
I've tried that. For me, it's also about the app ecosystem and the way multitasking is implemented. But also, perching a Bluetooth keyboard on my lap while the tablet was up on top of something else just separated things in a way I couldn't reconcile in my mind.
I would only really get a linux tablet, I'm with you on that, I plan to use a metal lapdesk with a charachorder and magnets which will mitigate the exact issues you're talking about while also letting me take a tablet on my flights so less bulk. Gotta get a bit creative if you're doing it that way but it is doable.
The heat from use damages integrated parts equally. Laptops and phones are disposable and shouldn't waste on modularity because when one part goes, typically the rest follow. Modularity adds bulk weight and can interfere with cooling. A lot of those modules can be replaced by cheaper, and more convenient specialty cables.
Starlabs makes a better one ..and it doesn't suffer from having an investor named Linus Sebastian ..
Mediocre and repairable hardware for premium prices is not for everyone. Most people probably want the most performance for the least amount of money without any regards or respect for money or the environment.
It probably doesn't help that they have been in some controversial drama either.
And let's not forget that Linus Sebastian from Linus Tech Tips is an investor as well. I don't want my money to go to that greedy turd who screwed over his own audience for money in pure greed, and when he became a rich turd he instantly became the very greedy person he used to hate on the WAN Show.
It's an attractive option, but it has a pretty hard competition from the 7th gen Thinkpad T14.
And many people want high quality repairable laptops.
Overpriced.
Huh I didn't realize laptops weren't repairable. That's like, what I do for a living.
I would be willing to buy one if they sold them in my country
I'll think about it when they have an ARM option
Framework feels like a bit of a gimmick to me, it's basically dongles, but they're built into the machine. I'd rather have a decent selection of ports out of the box.
Even the headphone jack is an option you need to buy, it's silly.
I think you’ve missed the point of framework laptops.
What other laptops can you change the gpu or screen on?
You can change the screen on my t480. Lots of things can be changed on it. It also cost less than $200.
I prefer the off lease commercial thinkpads too, but I am glad someone is actually creating new stuff for that market. The used thinkpad market can't grow.
Great, now can you change the GPU? Add another usb-c port? Add a 3.5mm port?
Screen changing is not a problem since eDP became the default. I swapped the panel on mine to a completely different one a few times already.
OK, but how many people actually want to do that?
Not the screen, but it would be nice if I could replace the keyboard on my laptop, since it doesn't work properly any more.
But since it's built into the lower body, it costs about as much to replace as the device is worth, since I'd be replacing a big piece of the casing, so I just make do with also carrying a Bluetooth keyboard.
Tip of the day: You can order replacement parts cheap from EBay or AliExpress and there are service manuals and instructions and even videos for plenty of common computers.
It may sound scary but it is really not that difficult. It's mostly finding all the screws and knowing what order to pick everything apart and put it back again.
Bonus Tip: get one (or 5 haha) of those little magnetic trays from harbor freight to put your screws in. They are a godsend if you're like me constantly losing shit.
People that are here.
To me the point of framework is that it can reliably endure amateur (aka me) repair.
I have repaired a fair amount of device in my life, companies without a focus on repair will have fragile cabel and components. And everytime I open it up, there would be a high chance of me breaking something, forcing me to use a broken device after that.
Repair and cleaning will need to happen every two or three years for most electronics, and that usually means I will live with a corky device for the next two years, then produce a bunch of ewastes consists of mostly perfectly functioning parts, with one failed critical component (most of the time, said component has not even failed, just significantly worn).
Me which is why I bought one, and several of the people who have seen me work with mine now want one for these reasons too. If my screen (or any component) craps out it is super easy to replace with minimal e-waste. Once I'm out of school and into the workforce I'm going to buy one of the GPUs probably a used one further reducing e-waste. If I want more storage space it takes like 5 minutes to swap a drive out. Love the thing
no, that's included on FW13
The important bit is that you can choose which ports you want and that they sit flush in the chassis so you don't have to carry a dongle.
Agreed. Give me a chonky 2000 era wall of ports along the side. I'm weird though, and people like thin laptops they can hold in one hand.
This is only true of the 16; the 12 and 13 have it built in. That makes me think there was a technical reason.
I own a framework and the dongles are the only thing I would change. I think it would better if the whole side is replaceable with preconfigured IO. As its right now its alot of space wasted. I think the MNT Reform does it like that.
I got a FW laptop a couple of years ago, and I got a headphone jack module with it.
I haven't installed it once. I just use Bluetooth.
The real reason I won’t buy one - despite wanting one really badly - is that Apple silicon is just too good. The gap between the battery life, performance and efficiency over x86 continues to widen.
FYI Intel caught up on node size. No more gap.
Only reason there was a gap is Intel fumbling to switch to a new node and apple showering tsmc with money for latest node size. There was no gap with amd all this time and battery was great on amd laptops
Node size wasn’t one of the metrics I was comparing so love to see some benchmarks to prove this gap isn’t as bad as I was aware…
Intel just now recovered. Took probably 7-8 years. See panther like. But also I'm not going to waste my life providing "sources". Google it, research it.
Translation: you made shit up and can’t find any source to back up your world view
K bro
Price point is bad...
Price point is fine for a "new" laptop.
Unfortunately, most of us obsessed with repairable laptops are also okay with refurbed at like a tenth the price.
Sure, a framework is more repairable than a thinkpad. But the point is to reduce ewaste. I can more easily reduce ewaste by buying this repairable enough laptop from eBay for $200-$400 vs $1200 without ram or ssd
Isn't Framework affiliated with neo nazis or some shit
Not that I've heard. I'd be curious where you heard it. You should probably come with a source if you're going to make bold accusations like that.
Edit: I swear, I gramer good.
Buckle up
https://community.frame.work/t/framework-supporting-far-right-racists/75986
Something about Framework giving money to several open source projects, one turned out to be someone who tweeted something racist once, and Framework didn't immediately commit seppuku.
I heard it here on Lemmy, which is why I'm asking. And asking that isn't an accusation, so maybe you need to continue working on that grammar. I asked because I heard it here and shocker this is a good use of social media because it's hard to find that specific detail. A question isnt an accusation but whatever floats your boat. After looking it up, looks like they sponsored/promoted Hyperland and Omarchy, both controversial conservative people/systems whatever, I dont really care but it's enough for me to say fuck giving Framework money. You go right ahead though.
$1100 isnt laptop money. Apple and Alienware poisoned the market 15 years ago. What happened to the dream of a $100 laptop? Wasn't there a whole movie or three about making this stuff affordable?
Best ive seen for value is chromebook. I think i bought 4 laptops one year for nieces and nephews for less than the cost of a single used MacBook pro or whatever was popular at the time. They do all the Facebook and Gmail that 95% of people actually need a computer for.
I am waiting for framework laptops to fall in price. They used to cost like 6 Monero and are now down to like 2 or 3.
I really want to buy a Framework, but it doesn't make sense to me if every year they announce a new model that is improved. Every year I think about buying one a new one gets announced :/ Maybe I don't understand it but what is the point of that?
That sounds like every piece of tech in existence. Every laptop manufacturer does the same. The difference with Framework is that you can upgrade parts of your existing model with some of the new hardware if you want. You don’t have to have the latest and greatest but if you like a certain aspect of it, you can upgrade that.
They only have three models of laptop. The Framework 12, 13, and 16
Within each model they might upgrade the specs, or change some things around, but there is no break in compatibility from generation to generation. If you buy a Framework today, (assuming they don't go bust) you will be able to buy the upgraded parts a few years down the line and slot them into your existing laptop.
You can just swap out the main board and CPU, if you want a newer one. There are different models incompatible with each other, but you just gotta choose a shape and then the internals are largely the same.
On top of that, you don't have to stay bleeding-edge. Computers have mostly reached a steady-state these days. A decade old computer now is still a fairly usable machine. It won't be fast, but it also won't be a slug.
I'm so so so shocked.
Every fucking time I pointlessly point out that phone batteries are easily swapped and it'll cost you battery + $15 to pay someone since nerd screeches about how it's just not easy enough to fix and blah, blah, blah.
People with disposable income just want the best new shit.