At this point 'white' is a cultural thing, and probably it's time for a new term. I also keep calling them 'old white men' because that's what most of them are, but the mental illness is of course not limited to them.
This can be read in two different ways. It's pretty clear, I hope, it's the good way (that you say that's the reason for them, not that it's the obvious reason that you agree with).
And the reply with Data too, wouldn't be surprised if these replies were on a right wing community.
Imagine if you were just saying what you think and everyone was upvoting you because they read it as "this is the reason for them".
The immigrants aren’t taking our jobs. They’re doing the work “we” don’t want to do. Agriculture. Janitorial. Construction. Stuff like that.
partially false, they're working under conditions we technically have employment laws against. longer hours, no recourse against management, etc. it helps suppress wages across the board. This include higher paying jobs like software development, nursing, doctors, etc.
Immigrants do jobs that we wont do, and the jobs we do, Its business owners taking our jobs, and giving it to desperate immigrants, who they pay under minimum wage with the implied threat of calling authorities if they complain.
and when authorities do show up, they only arrest the immigrants.. for some reason, they never arrest the cunt that was exploiting them.
Because immigrant labor does more than field work. they bring in tons of skilled immigrant labor under visas to do white collar jobs too, and they are abused and exploited all the same.
That's corporate propaganda, don't fall for it. "We" would be more than happy to do agriculture, janitorial, construction, etc... but we need to be able to feed ourselves and our families on the income from "burger flipping".
I'm with you in the last half but have you tried being bent over all day picking strawberries? I haven't, I do things for work that most wouldn't be comfortable with, sometimes dangerous things. And I'm in my 40s.
Fuck being bent over like that for any amount of time - no way
I have worked several fruit farms. Yes it's hard work. You do get used to it but of course it requires fitness /flexibility that is harder with age. But I've also worked in factories which was hard too.
Immigrants may work these jobs because, like non immigrants, they're desperate. You can find yourself working with people with serious qualifications for better jobs - because they're desperate.
The problem here is with strawberry monoculture. Big ag has been lying for years that their ways are more productive, and so we have huge stretches of the same stuff. Turns out huge stretches of the same stuff is not good for anyone - not for the plants that are not made to live in monocultures. Not for the workers whose bodies were not made for eight hours of doing the same, not for the soil that thrives on diversity.
So if we could move away from monoculture in anything - social structure, city building, work setup .... why insist in 100 ha of maize and 8 hours of doing the same when we already know that these concepts don't work.
The immigrants keep our wages low in jobs we would do if the influental people were forced to raise the wages because only natives who only accept a higher minimum wage would do.
The Hoteliers are the bad (they are nice, but greedy) people. (And the people who flee their poor countries to get to welfare states in europa.)
This stereotype feels less true every year. I work in a very large office in a large city and ~half of my white-collar co-workers are either immigrants or 1st generation naturalized Americans. According to hiring managers, it’s just representative of the applicant pool.
I know America has historically exploited immigrants for agricultural work (and still does), but there’s also a huge population of white-collar immigrants from all over the world.
Neither are the people AI is replacing? The software engineer or the person who assembled your computer part didn’t decide what price it was sold to you at
Europeans might be now the most anti-immigration population on earth , coming up with idiotic phrases like : economic immigration/refuge is not valid immigration/refuge and X country is safe because the previous government collapsed along with the iconic : why did the sand monkey get a better IT Job than me , its a conspiracy to kill the white race !
I wouldn't say they're good people, just because they're immigrants. They're people like any other, there are good hardworking people amongst them and lazy slobs, but they're all unfairly exploited.
Of course depending in local laws, but in general it shouldn't be possible to exploit anyone. Regardless of their origin or what it says in their passport.
Employee protection laws should apply to everyone equally in a given county regardless of persons nationality.
The most twisted part about this is that at least immigrants create jobs as well. Just like you and me, they need housing, groceries, doctors, entertainment, and so on and so forth. The idea that an immigrant is a net negative for the job market is exactly as stupid as getting upset at people for having more children because it will have a negative effect on the job market.
Much like unemployment, they exist precisely because of capitalism. It's inherent to the system, and that's been know since its early days, and people like Marx and Marcuse wrote plenty about it.
He also talks about the Northern European life cycle is in part what gave way to capitalism. In the late medieval times, it was common that every craftsman had their own workshop and before they could afford one, they want around and worked for wages until they could buy their own. So wage labor was seen as a juvenile phase that has a value in its own because it's pedagogical. Later, people were stuck in this phase and it was still seen as an end in itself. This is in addition to what Marx and Weber had to say about the beginning of capitalism.
immigrants are an easy target because they dont have much rights if any, plus its an easy wedge issue for many countries that have internal political/financial/economic problems. also people dont arnt aware/or are aware of the industry they are in, service, hospitality,,,etc that is necessary for the economies of those countries.
we can't have the browns (because we all know that's who they mean) taking our jobs while the billionaires are only billionaires. #MoreTrillionaires amirite
There is no logic to who you're told to be angry at. It's just easier to control people if they're made to be angry at some group of people. It doesn't matter which.
That's why it's important to remember when you're on the internet and find yourself becoming angry at a group of people to stop and ask yourself "is this someone trying to control me?"
Ngl I see immigrants more often start their own small businesses like family restaurants and actually increase job opportunities if allowed. And rest is doing jobs citizens do not want.
Tell that to the Europeans , most Syrian companies now got got offices in Germany , and lots of new Syrian Restaurants opened tho not as good as the ones in Syria as I heard
The problem is not that you lose that theoretical job, it's that they have one. Mind you, it's also a problem if they don't have one. In this socio-theoretical framework anything immigrants do or not do is a problem.
Companies, meanwhile, are only at fault for anything if they're foreign and not multinational corporations.
Hypothetically, how much does AI cost per equivalent work by human? Lots of ways to calculate it I suppose if you include capital expenditures and bribing local officials and paying billionaires to market it.
Immigrants aren't taking jobs. The ruling class leverages their immense power in society to push down wages of the entire working class and instills fear of speaking out through exploitation of the desperation of immigrants.
"Jobs" are not a finite resource. That's just the broken window fallacy with a dash of bigotry.
Or from a macro-economic view, since immigrants are also consumers, studies typically show that immigrants increase aggregate demand for jobs more than they increase aggregate supply.
Do the jobs that are taken by immigrants create jobs in the same field that the person who lost the job can be employed in? Because it creating a job in some other unrelated field doesn't really help the original person. Nor does the line for someone going up necessarily.
It's important here to clarify, what do you mean by immigrant? Like do H1B status people who live in the country count? Because I can kind of understand you if that's what you're talking about.
If your're talking about migrant people who get desperately exploited then honestly fuck off.
Where do you think economic growth even comes from? It comes from labor! All of the value in the economy is created by labor, literally nothing would exist if it weren't for working people doing their jobs. Then, those same workers who created value with their labor are paid wages, and then they spend those wages to pay for food, housing, utilities, clothing, entertainment, etc etc.
There's a reason so many countries are panicking about low birth rates. Population growth is critical for economic growth.
By the way, you're the one making the claim that "both are bad" - why don't you have to show me a study or something to back up your idea?
It is not obvious from theory alone whether migration will have a positive or negative impact on the wages and job prospects of existing workers in the labour market, or no effect at all. Immigration affects the number of workers in the economy, increasing ‘labour supply’. This means there are more people looking for jobs.
?
By the way, you’re the one making the claim that “both are bad” - why don’t you have to show me a study or something to back up your idea?
I think people losing their jobs is bad. And again, from your own link...
The number of jobs in the UK economy is not fixed. Migrants compete with existing workers in the UK for jobs, but they also cause the number of jobs to increase
Low-wage workers are more likely to lose out from immigration, while medium and high-paid workers are more likely to gain, but the effects are small
In general, workers in low-skilled occupations face more competition from migrants because the skills needed for those jobs are easier to acquire.
Sometimes we have to choose between someone who looks different earning a living wage, or Jeff Bezos having a slightly nicer trim on his yacht before the inevitable consequences of his choices cacth up with him. We just can't have both.
Why does immigrant mean someone who looks different? That seems like a strange assumption imo
Fair question.
Politicians talk as if immigration enforcement only affects immigrants. But the data shows that plenty of citizens who look vaguely foriegn suffer substantially.
Citizens who look like immigrants end up living in fear - which could easily be seen as "by design" when compared to historic playbooks where intimidation and distraction were key components for awful people to stay in power.
There's enough work to be done in this country that everyone should have the ability to place a job if they are willing and able. However capitalism demands artificial scarcity to maintain itself, so capitalists artificially restrict the amount of available positions.
I think we currently live in a time where computers do not get cheaper with time. My hoster recently increased price. Also I had a look at a replacement SSD and oh boy did those get expensive... Last time I upgraded my laptop, I just maxed out the RAM with 32GB plus a 2TB SDD. And I might be mistaken with the numbers, but I think I paid a total of what's half a SSD today 👀
Hmmh. I guess we'll find out. According to the AI industry, they're just getting started... I'm not really subscribed to that kind of thinking... But there's various predictions from the bubble going to burst and we'll get all the datacenter capactiy for cheap. To AI will continue on an exponential path and it'll get way worse with it's insatiable demand for energy and datacenters.
Poor gamers, though. First they had the cryptomining bros, then the scalpers, now the AI industry... There's only ever a short time to buy GPUs before the next boom makes them overpriced again. And this might not be the last hype.
on a more serious note the industry as a whole is haemorrhaging money at an insane pace. the ed zitron report from earlier in the week showed that openais burn rate is like 8x their revenue and they show no sign of course-correcting, and the others seem to be doing the same thing. nvidia is the only profitable party and their profit is like a fifth of what the sector is losing.
Though I feel this is far from over. They're all still valued billions. There's still investor money coming in. And the next dozens of datacenters in the pipeline. They have enough money to invest in power plants and all kinds of stuff. Companies still have those silly rules that you as a programmer are supposed to burn tokens. And now the AI companies are slowly starting to find ways to become profitable. I think it's still early days. And we haven't yet seen the large scale displacement of human work. And autonomous robots are also still to come. I'd attest them a chance to work in warehouses etc... So... I don't see the course changing any time soon.
we've yet to see a single one of them be profitable, and if they try to leverage their existing subscriber base for that they will crash hard. the valuation is pure fantasy, based on the same 10 companies all "investing" in each other with the same lump of pretend money like a financial hot potato. and last i looked something like 37% of the american pension system's investments are in the ml industry. the last time that happened it had global repercussions.
Well you see if immigrants take a job they'll feed their families. But if AI takes a job it'll make rich white guys more rich.
It sounds like a joke, but this hits the nail on its head.
Pichai and Nadela aren't even white...
At this point 'white' is a cultural thing, and probably it's time for a new term. I also keep calling them 'old white men' because that's what most of them are, but the mental illness is of course not limited to them.
Sucessfull vs Degenerates?
Skin tone obviously.
No, money goes to the top and not the workers
Right. The skin tone aspect is real but only a cheap, easy manipulative means to get that money to the top
He is peak sexy and fully functional.
This can be read in two different ways. It's pretty clear, I hope, it's the good way (that you say that's the reason for them, not that it's the obvious reason that you agree with). And the reply with Data too, wouldn't be surprised if these replies were on a right wing community. Imagine if you were just saying what you think and everyone was upvoting you because they read it as "this is the reason for them".
Why downvote this? It can actually be read in two different ways. Though I'm fairly certain what it is on Lemmy lol.
The immigrants aren’t taking our jobs. They’re doing the work “we” don’t want to do. Agriculture. Janitorial. Construction. Stuff like that.
And they’re not making computers and games more expensive.
partially false, they're working under conditions we technically have employment laws against. longer hours, no recourse against management, etc. it helps suppress wages across the board. This include higher paying jobs like software development, nursing, doctors, etc.
This, there's no job "we" don't want to do, they are just typically not paid fairly because the employers have access to desperate immigrants.
So the issue isn't the immigrants, but the ones exploiting them for cheap labour?
Ding ding ding. It's the same people that push AI. That's why the messaging is conflicting, to answer the original post question.
I was more just making a statement, I should probably not have framed it as a question. This is not something that is news to me personally.
Immigrants do jobs that we wont do, and the jobs we do, Its business owners taking our jobs, and giving it to desperate immigrants, who they pay under minimum wage with the implied threat of calling authorities if they complain.
and when authorities do show up, they only arrest the immigrants.. for some reason, they never arrest the cunt that was exploiting them.
Because immigrant labor does more than field work. they bring in tons of skilled immigrant labor under visas to do white collar jobs too, and they are abused and exploited all the same.
That's corporate propaganda, don't fall for it. "We" would be more than happy to do agriculture, janitorial, construction, etc... but we need to be able to feed ourselves and our families on the income from "burger flipping".
You know, like we could do for generations.
I'm with you in the last half but have you tried being bent over all day picking strawberries? I haven't, I do things for work that most wouldn't be comfortable with, sometimes dangerous things. And I'm in my 40s.
Fuck being bent over like that for any amount of time - no way
I have worked several fruit farms. Yes it's hard work. You do get used to it but of course it requires fitness /flexibility that is harder with age. But I've also worked in factories which was hard too.
Immigrants may work these jobs because, like non immigrants, they're desperate. You can find yourself working with people with serious qualifications for better jobs - because they're desperate.
"Taking our jobs" is just a trope.
The problem here is with strawberry monoculture. Big ag has been lying for years that their ways are more productive, and so we have huge stretches of the same stuff. Turns out huge stretches of the same stuff is not good for anyone - not for the plants that are not made to live in monocultures. Not for the workers whose bodies were not made for eight hours of doing the same, not for the soil that thrives on diversity.
So if we could move away from monoculture in anything - social structure, city building, work setup .... why insist in 100 ha of maize and 8 hours of doing the same when we already know that these concepts don't work.
The immigrants keep our wages low in jobs we would do if the influental people were forced to raise the wages because only natives who only accept a higher minimum wage would do.
The Hoteliers are the bad (they are nice, but greedy) people. (And the people who flee their poor countries to get to welfare states in europa.)
This stereotype feels less true every year. I work in a very large office in a large city and ~half of my white-collar co-workers are either immigrants or 1st generation naturalized Americans. According to hiring managers, it’s just representative of the applicant pool.
I know America has historically exploited immigrants for agricultural work (and still does), but there’s also a huge population of white-collar immigrants from all over the world.
Those aren't the immigrants they're trying to deport though. Racism is the main component and taking the jobs is just a pretext.
Neither are the people AI is replacing? The software engineer or the person who assembled your computer part didn’t decide what price it was sold to you at
Tell that to the Europeans
Care to explain to an European?
Europeans might be now the most anti-immigration population on earth , coming up with idiotic phrases like : economic immigration/refuge is not valid immigration/refuge and X country is safe because the previous government collapsed along with the iconic : why did the sand monkey get a better IT Job than me , its a conspiracy to kill the white race !
That sounds too American to me.
Americans are actually more tolerant to migrants in behavior than Europeans
Sounds to me that you haven’t been to either Europe or the US or both.
Actually, Immigrants don't even take your job, it's only AI that takes your job.
Neither. Just a cover for offshoring, which is booming.
Actually Indians
Immigrants take the low-paying jobs white people don't want to do (ie working on a farm for 14 hours a day).
Why do we keep believing the Epstein class just because they own the major media outlets? They're lying. AI is stealing. Immigrants are good people.
I wouldn't say they're good people, just because they're immigrants. They're people like any other, there are good hardworking people amongst them and lazy slobs, but they're all unfairly exploited.
Of course depending in local laws, but in general it shouldn't be possible to exploit anyone. Regardless of their origin or what it says in their passport. Employee protection laws should apply to everyone equally in a given county regardless of persons nationality.
Oh they totally exist. I've met a few.
Because immigrants use their money to buy food and shelter and make the local economy thrive, while AI gets money in the pockets of the rich
Well, it will... As soon as it starts making any. The omnipresent fraud tide them over in the meantime...
Oh it's making money for the people it needs to make money for. All part of the grift!
The most twisted part about this is that at least immigrants create jobs as well. Just like you and me, they need housing, groceries, doctors, entertainment, and so on and so forth. The idea that an immigrant is a net negative for the job market is exactly as stupid as getting upset at people for having more children because it will have a negative effect on the job market.
AI taking jobs is totally fine...in a post-scarcity socialist utopia.
We aren't there yet, though.
Right? I want to live in a world where politicians campaign on destroying jobs, not creating them.
Speaking of that, it's been a little while since I've heard anyone claim to be a big "job creator".
You will love the book Bullshit Jobs by David Graeber. It's basically about jobs nobody needs and why they exist
Much like unemployment, they exist precisely because of capitalism. It's inherent to the system, and that's been know since its early days, and people like Marx and Marcuse wrote plenty about it.
He also talks about the Northern European life cycle is in part what gave way to capitalism. In the late medieval times, it was common that every craftsman had their own workshop and before they could afford one, they want around and worked for wages until they could buy their own. So wage labor was seen as a juvenile phase that has a value in its own because it's pedagogical. Later, people were stuck in this phase and it was still seen as an end in itself. This is in addition to what Marx and Weber had to say about the beginning of capitalism.
One of my conservative neighbors replaced his immigrant landscaper with a robot lawnmower. Is that double-dipping?
Because the pedophile class pays good money for you to be propagandized to believe that
This is the best AI burn so far
Because the AI isn't brown
And then the face eating leopards strike
immigrants are an easy target because they dont have much rights if any, plus its an easy wedge issue for many countries that have internal political/financial/economic problems. also people dont arnt aware/or are aware of the industry they are in, service, hospitality,,,etc that is necessary for the economies of those countries.
we can't have the browns (because we all know that's who they mean) taking our jobs while the billionaires are only billionaires. #MoreTrillionaires amirite
AI doesnt stab, rob, influence my culture, stink, litter in my country. (I read that on newsPAPER and saw it myself)
Yet.
There is no logic to who you're told to be angry at. It's just easier to control people if they're made to be angry at some group of people. It doesn't matter which.
That's why it's important to remember when you're on the internet and find yourself becoming angry at a group of people to stop and ask yourself "is this someone trying to control me?"
AI is probably less popular than immigrants for precisely this reason.
What a nonsense post.
Immigrants "take" blue collar jobs, AI takes white collar ones
Because you're supposed to obey your oligarch overlords.
Ngl I see immigrants more often start their own small businesses like family restaurants and actually increase job opportunities if allowed. And rest is doing jobs citizens do not want.
Tell that to the Europeans , most Syrian companies now got got offices in Germany , and lots of new Syrian Restaurants opened tho not as good as the ones in Syria as I heard
For the capitalists it is also good that immigrants take the jobs.
The problem is not that you lose that theoretical job, it's that they have one. Mind you, it's also a problem if they don't have one. In this socio-theoretical framework anything immigrants do or not do is a problem.
Companies, meanwhile, are only at fault for anything if they're foreign and not multinational corporations.
Immigrants are both lazy slobs that mooch off society, AND taking all our jobs.
The enemy is both weak and strong.
The ai is being paid a living wage
🌠
Soon there will be ai management software which will track workers through cameras in order to judge their productivity levels. Nobody is safe.
And immigrants don't "take er jerbs", while AI does.
Businesses thought they don't need to pay for AI, but they would still have to pay immigrants.
Also - immigrants and foreigners usually have better employee protection than Ai laws.
Yes. It's very simple. You see, bascially
If you know someone who said that, it's time to have a talk with them.
Immigrants are all people, and they can educate and organize themselves, which is an existential threat to facist and authoritarian shit bags
Hypothetically, how much does AI cost per equivalent work by human? Lots of ways to calculate it I suppose if you include capital expenditures and bribing local officials and paying billionaires to market it.
Ai can't stab you or cut your throats
for now*
Oh boy, ever heard of robots?
Mostly just explosives now, maybe a gun or two
Both. Both are bad.
Immigrants aren't taking jobs. The ruling class leverages their immense power in society to push down wages of the entire working class and instills fear of speaking out through exploitation of the desperation of immigrants.
If immigrants are employed then isn't that a job someone else could be doing?
"Jobs" are not a finite resource. That's just the broken window fallacy with a dash of bigotry.
Or from a macro-economic view, since immigrants are also consumers, studies typically show that immigrants increase aggregate demand for jobs more than they increase aggregate supply.
Do the jobs that are taken by immigrants create jobs in the same field that the person who lost the job can be employed in? Because it creating a job in some other unrelated field doesn't really help the original person. Nor does the line for someone going up necessarily.
It's important here to clarify, what do you mean by immigrant? Like do H1B status people who live in the country count? Because I can kind of understand you if that's what you're talking about.
If your're talking about migrant people who get desperately exploited then honestly fuck off.
I don't know what H1B is. I'm just talking about people moving to another country in general
Jobs are productive. Every person that is employed grows the economy, so every job done by an immigrant creates another job.
AI has yet to be productive. Right now it's just destroying jobs. Nothing is created, except maybe data center construction jobs.
That sounds dubious to me. Is there a study or something to back up the idea of every immigrant job creating another job?
https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/the-labour-market-effects-of-immigration/
Where do you think economic growth even comes from? It comes from labor! All of the value in the economy is created by labor, literally nothing would exist if it weren't for working people doing their jobs. Then, those same workers who created value with their labor are paid wages, and then they spend those wages to pay for food, housing, utilities, clothing, entertainment, etc etc.
There's a reason so many countries are panicking about low birth rates. Population growth is critical for economic growth.
By the way, you're the one making the claim that "both are bad" - why don't you have to show me a study or something to back up your idea?
From your link
?
I think people losing their jobs is bad. And again, from your own link...
And so on.
Sometimes we have to choose between someone who looks different earning a living wage, or Jeff Bezos having a slightly nicer trim on his yacht before the inevitable consequences of his choices cacth up with him. We just can't have both.
Why does immigrant mean someone who looks different? That seems like a strange assumption imo
Fair question.
Politicians talk as if immigration enforcement only affects immigrants. But the data shows that plenty of citizens who look vaguely foriegn suffer substantially.
Citizens who look like immigrants end up living in fear - which could easily be seen as "by design" when compared to historic playbooks where intimidation and distraction were key components for awful people to stay in power.
There's enough work to be done in this country that everyone should have the ability to place a job if they are willing and able. However capitalism demands artificial scarcity to maintain itself, so capitalists artificially restrict the amount of available positions.
What's "this country"?
I was referring specifically to the US given the context of the fascist immigration crackdown, but it applies to all countries.
computers get cheaper with time, people get more expensive
I think we currently live in a time where computers do not get cheaper with time. My hoster recently increased price. Also I had a look at a replacement SSD and oh boy did those get expensive... Last time I upgraded my laptop, I just maxed out the RAM with 32GB plus a 2TB SDD. And I might be mistaken with the numbers, but I think I paid a total of what's half a SSD today 👀
I got a 4TB NVMe SSD for $160 a couple years ago. It's over $500 last time I checked a couple months ago.
sure but that's only until the gold rush peters out.
Hmmh. I guess we'll find out. According to the AI industry, they're just getting started... I'm not really subscribed to that kind of thinking... But there's various predictions from the bubble going to burst and we'll get all the datacenter capactiy for cheap. To AI will continue on an exponential path and it'll get way worse with it's insatiable demand for energy and datacenters.
Poor gamers, though. First they had the cryptomining bros, then the scalpers, now the AI industry... There's only ever a short time to buy GPUs before the next boom makes them overpriced again. And this might not be the last hype.
the gamers know what they did.
on a more serious note the industry as a whole is haemorrhaging money at an insane pace. the ed zitron report from earlier in the week showed that openais burn rate is like 8x their revenue and they show no sign of course-correcting, and the others seem to be doing the same thing. nvidia is the only profitable party and their profit is like a fifth of what the sector is losing.
Though I feel this is far from over. They're all still valued billions. There's still investor money coming in. And the next dozens of datacenters in the pipeline. They have enough money to invest in power plants and all kinds of stuff. Companies still have those silly rules that you as a programmer are supposed to burn tokens. And now the AI companies are slowly starting to find ways to become profitable. I think it's still early days. And we haven't yet seen the large scale displacement of human work. And autonomous robots are also still to come. I'd attest them a chance to work in warehouses etc... So... I don't see the course changing any time soon.
we've yet to see a single one of them be profitable, and if they try to leverage their existing subscriber base for that they will crash hard. the valuation is pure fantasy, based on the same 10 companies all "investing" in each other with the same lump of pretend money like a financial hot potato. and last i looked something like 37% of the american pension system's investments are in the ml industry. the last time that happened it had global repercussions.