Asus Co-CEO: MacBook Neo Is a 'Shock' to the PC Industry
The Apple MacBook Neo's $599 starting price is a "shock" to the Windows PC industry, according to an Asus executive.
Hsu said he believes all the PC players—including Microsoft, Intel, and AMD—take the MacBook Neo threat seriously. "In fact, in the entire PC ecosystem, there have been a lot of discussions about how to compete with this product," he added, given that rumors about the MacBook Neo have been making the rounds for at least a year.
Despite the competitive threat, Hsu argued that the MacBook Neo could have limited appeal. He pointed to the laptop's 8GB of "unified memory," or what amounts to its RAM, and how customers can't upgrade it.
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I can't speak for Macs. But in the Linux world, 8GB is fine. In Windows it's awful because of all that bloat. I'm guessing Macs fair better for OS efficiency.
Macs don't have copilot so that's like 4GB saved right there
Ha ha ha. True!
Can it be debloated? I might do that for my parents home PC.
Idk about copilot, this is my recommended debloat tool
8GB of ram on Macs is fine for work and medium photo/video editing, as long as you have plenty of SSD space and don’t use Apple Intelligence.
People forget that MacOS is UNIX at its core.
I'm running Mint on an 8GB laptop and I'm surprised by just how much can be running at one time. Right now I'm running Firefox with 10 open tabs, Waterfox with 8 tabs, Thunderbird, Keepass, Calibre, Signal, a Whatsapp client, Syncthing, Libreoffice Writer with 2 open docs & Calc with 2 open small spreadsheets, a couple of terminals and Gedit, and didn't even notice it until came across these comments. A friend who uses Windows 11 says 32GB is recommended now.
Microsoft must be thrilled with age verification being required at the OS level. What a great way to lock people into their Microslop garbage.
Oh......I guess I'm the only one who opens firefox, and literally thousands of tabs.
One day I closed one window and it said "Are you sure you want to close 158 tabs?"
I said yes. It was one window. I had 23 more windows.
When I get to 20 or so I have to start closing some tabs to keep track of things. How do you find the tab you're looking for when you have that many open?
Tab search.
Tab groups.
Color coding.
I use sideberry addon on Firefox and workspaces in Vivaldi.
Zen (firefox (gecko) derivative, No AI, focus on decluttered interface) has bloody excellent tab management these days, workspaces, folders, horizontal tab lists (like sideberry), essentials (tab icons pinned to the top), auto unload, all built in, and everything disappears when reading a page.
Glance is the most used feature on Zen for me. Everything else I like Firefox for more, but that damn Glance feature really helps me when doing research or looking into things! I NEED it for Firefox! :'(
Even without any extensions, there is a shortcut in Firefox to search and switch to a tab by typing % on the address bar
Literally thousands? Have you tried bookmarking things after they've sat unused for awhile?
I typically just periodically save my browser windows with a tab manager extension. I just say because thousands sounds like way too much to keep track of...
I rarely have more than 10 tabs open on my phone, and rarely more than 5 in my PC. How do people have so many tabs?
Get Sideberry for your sanity.
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/sidebery/
https://github.com/mbnuqw/sidebery
I literally have over a thousand tabs open in one window.
8Gb ram. Mint. 10+ year old pc.
Yeah sidebery is the goat. I too have thousands of tabs open.
This is the computing equivalent to hoarding.
When I have too many tabs, I press that blue button of the "one tab" extension.
on my work PC at the moment (lovely little AMD 5700u mini-pc with 16Gb ram) I have a debloated LTSC build on W11 and two profiles of firefox running with a total of 25 tabs, a couple of them are more complex web apps but most are static pages, plus a couple of file browser, an old dumb custom invoicing app we use (~2003 application so its very light) and a VNC viewer with another machine running.
7.9gb of ram use.
it's not that bad really, I mean it's a lot for just mostly websites but we know they arent as light as they used to be, 8gb would be too little since I need some dedicated for Vram as I run 3 displays but I certainly dont need much more than 16.
I did have 32gb in this machine at first since I was doing some light photoshop and basic CAD/CAM, but it very rarely exceeded 16gb, so I cut it back and it's been absolutely fine.
If you give windows more ram, it will use more ram as a baseline of course, unused ram is wasted ram.
I’m running Arch on a Macbook Air with 2GB of RAM. Its limited, but it does what I want it to.
Many entry level MacBooks of the last decade have probably been 8 GB. I have a M1 MacBook Air and that is 8 GB. It is fine for me.
Not "probably". They were. For the last decade, up until like last year. And they were awful, and a ripoff. At least they're not trying to charge $1k+ for this one.
Hard disagree. I have the same MacBook Air and it’s still crazy fast. What are y’all really doing that more RAM is so necessary?
Probably having thousands of Chrome tabs open.
Ugh, I see this on people’s computers at work during screen sharing. First off, Chrome is the clunkiest browser you could possibly use on macOS and second, why so many tabs? How do y’all need 20 tabs open — like you can’t even see the titles because there are so many?
You don't need to see the titles (and you can always see them with vertical tabs anyway). There are good cases for having many tabs open. It's just that chrome is terrible at dealing with them.
I typically have two tabs of the same website open and need to know which tab belongs to which page. Just having the icon looks so sloppy to me and I always see coworkers cycle through their 4,000 tabs to get to anything.
A handful of apps and a few browser tabs will do it. I can go through twice that fairly frequently.
And the RAM upgrade prices have been a consistent Apple profit center for over 20 years now.
So I presume you're saying that the entire system shouldn't slow down when Firefox starts swapping?
The only time I ever use more than 8gb on my M4 Mac Mini is when I run a Win 11 VM through Parallels
Yeahhhhh no
But it is for most people.
Again, no.
Most people still browse bloated websites, doesn't matter what OS you're using 8GB is going to be tight.
As a web developer… what?? If your website needs 8GB on the client to run there are serious, deeply ingrained problems with your front end. I recently scoffed at coworkers who wanted 8GB of memory for just one instance of their web server — I can’t even fathom how cursed the codebase is if the browser plows through 8GB of RAM on a page load.
8GB wouldn't be one site, but between the OS & a couple of bloated sites 8GB is easy to hit.
Exactly. I am not a heavy user but occasionally I need to multitask a bit. I upgraded from 16 gb to 32 gb a while back because with 4 open workspaces, a browser window in each one plus an email client, signal, a couple libreoffice apps open, and my notes app, it was having to use enough swap space that I noticed the performance hit. I've had to use some very poorly optimized sites for work that literally used a gig of ram for one tab. A small number of very light users might be ok with 8gb, but most will likely have issues.
I have 13 tabs open over two browsers (Safari and Firefox) and a text editor open on my Mac and I’m using 1.82GB
M1 Max MacStudio
Windows maybe? I’ve been using macOS (UNIX), FreeBSD (UNIX) and Linux for the past 20+ years.
I'm sat in front of my work computer(OSX) and may personal laptop(Linux).
Both are using well over 8GB just for the browsers.
On OSX vscode is using an additional 4GB and the windowserver east up 1GB too
On Linux/KDE my window manager is much lighter but for some reason my akonadi is using 2GB on my contacts resource
Sure you can technically run Linux on much less memory but a modern browser, hitting modern websites will use up 8GB pretty quickly.
They said websites, not website
And that's why we have adblockers
Different people use computers for different things you know.
I use my computer for simple tasks and can power through double that pretty easily. My family is full of Mac sheep who are constantly coming to me to make their computers faster and I have to tell them I can't help because their machine was deliberately kneecapped by the OEM and there's no way to fix it. Fortunately one of them just upgraded to the new Air w/ 16GB and they remark how much faster it is. Obviously it's faster in lots of other ways, but none of those would do anything if they were still capped at 8GB.
Been enough for me.
My old laptop is running Pop!OS on 8gigs really well. I mostly do document editing, vector graphics, and a little light gaming. Have not updated to COSMIC yet so will see how that goes. I definitely dont load it up like my beefy desktop though.
I use mainly Linux but Mac is more efficient with RAM than Linux is also. By a significant amount.
What?
I use OSX for work and Linux on my personal laptop, that hasn't been my experience at all
There are some advantages macOS can have but it depends on usage patterns and user knowledge:
Dynamic swap and zswap aren't really the same as efficient ram usage it's just good ways to mitigate when you run out. But when your using actual swap it's in my experience more noticable on OSX than Linux, which at least for me remains responsive until you're using a lot of swap.
Maybe Arch & Flatpak users hit this, but avoiding multiple versions of the same library is what distros exist for and avoiding loading different frameworks is what Desktop Environments are for. Although the ability to restore apps after closing them is pretty sweet and built in to OSX in a way that lets me safely kill apps to reduce the memory I'm using.
I think the main reason my Linux setup consumes less memory is probably because I used Kate for most file editing instead of vscode, which is probably an unfair advantage to Linux.
I disagree. If the OS automatically identifies unneeded pages and compresses them or swaps them out, it’s certainly using the physical memory more efficiently than if it wasn’t doing these things.
But they can’t if the applications they want to ship don’t all use the same version. E.g. Ubuntu ships GTK 2, 3, and 4. Arch even still ships GTK 1 in addition to these three.
What happens is you run KDE but then you still want to run Firefox so you still need GTK.
MacOS doesn't shove the system UI components into swap when Firefox uses too much memory.
To clarify, some versions of Linux are lighter weight with resources, and macOS does tend to take up more RAM at rest to make things pull up snappier, if you have it to spare. But their compression algorithm is better, and if you are using near the limit, it will be more efficient with the use of the RAM you have available before lagging. With Windows and Linux, it feels more like if you're out of RAM you're out if RAM. It's less likely to happen at all on Linux though.
What compression algorithm? The osx kernel is largely open source so they aren't doing some secret compression, do they hardware offload it or something?
OSX enables zswap by default, but on a laptop that regular uses it, I'm not convinced it's a trade-off that's worth it, although swapping is different on OSX (IMO worse on modern desktops as it swaps whole apps) so I could be wrong.
How so? I have a work Mac and it uses more ram in general despite both the Mac and my personal laptop both employing memory compression and caching.
Sure, but that's a bad excuse. 16 GB is a standard even in low end nowadays.
I do agree that 8GB is low. But it does fair better on Macs than Windows. This reviewer is editing his 4k videos on one. https://youtu.be/pCRtNeAP1dQ
It's basically iOS at that point.
MacOS is like 6 gb of ram doing nothing
It can also do things and still use the same 6 gigs.
MacOS caches a lot. That memory is freed when it's needed for other things.
No I keep seeing this "caches a lot" thing keeps getting repeated. Memory break downs already accounts for that. They shows the different break downs of ram usage. In use vs cached.
This is 6gb of inuse memory while the laptop is chilling. Cached memory is typically like 80% of whatever the ram is on your device. If you hit that 8gb your app is getting killed before the kernel kills a system process.
Okay I don't think you've actually used MacOS lol
Ive got a stack of them right next to me. I work on them regularly. I know older versions of macOS are lean but Tahoe and Seqouia are noticeably heavier. Its not a problem because the devices running them have 16gb+ of ram. But I'm worried 8gb will impose contains on usage. I know it'll do basic stuff like run a browser but i think people are overestimating how capable this device will be.
Okay, fair, I haven't used Tahoe or Sequoia myself. But I think we'll see how these fare when people actually start using them. I'm very much not the target audience, I'm looking at the M5 or M5 Pro models myself.
Ok I finally remembered to check a Mac. Just after a fresh imaging it was using 5.8gb of ram. Latest version of Tahoe. Not quite the 8gb I claimed but after usage I can see it beinf 6/7gb with nothing major open.
That’s not true at all.
I constantly have Illustrator, Photoshop, Sibelius, Scrivener, and about 100 browser tabs open on my 10 year old MacBook with 8gb of RAM without issue.
What version or macOS?
Sequoia.
That is pretty surprising to me. I noticed a significant bump in resource requirements for Sequoia and again for Tahoe. I've got a stack of macs next to me I'll see if I can find one still running sequoia and reassess my opinion.
Oh, if it matters, I also run Memory Clean 2 to monitor RAM usage and do Extreme Clean from time to time.
I forgot about this because it’s basically muscle memory at this point, but maybe this is making a difference?
As of right now with just Sibelius, Scrivener, and about 40 browser tabs (no Adobe), I have 2.01 GB free.
e: I downvoted my original comment since it’s now occurred to me that this app may be why my machine isn’t struggling.
Yeah, I’m not sure about Tahoe since my machine is too old so it won’t let me upgrade, but at least Sequoia has been fine with 8GB.
Dude, the difference between you and Apple is Windows 11. They don't have a crappy copilot or Edge hoarding 4GB in the background just to show the weather.
That's a big difference but not all. The sub-$1000 ultrabook sector has SO MUCH garbage, like Intel Celerons that stutter when you scroll down a web page designed in 2022+. Manufacturers are happy because they can sell rubbish and uncle John with no idea about computers will say "I want a laptop with 1 TB so it's faster, and it must have free office 365 and an antivirus"...
So when someone puts a phone processor in a laptop and builds a chassis that isn't a $5 extruded plastic shell, they panic because it still manages to be better in both benchmarks and real world use despite the paltry amount of RAM.
Exactly. They should start installing Linux Mint and call it a day.
Fuck Microsoft.
Indeed. PC manufacturers should just invest in the Linux ecosystem.
What, like Asus did back in 2007?
Unfortunately, these particular devices were kinda shit lol
Eh, I gather the Linux based ones were actually pretty cool. But 99% of netbooks ended up being underpowered mini laptops running XP, so were doomed to failure.
EEEs were amazing! Not because of their performance or specs, but because they were a fully working compute for dirt cheap at only $199! Remember, these were released 5 years before the first Raspberry Pi. The original model of EEE with its 7" screen 512MB RAM and 4GB of slow SSD storage were plenty of compute for small tasks or portable applications. The cheapest fully functional laptop you could buy at retail those days would still cost you $800-$900 for a pretty horrible machine.
Linux was part of the secret sauce that made them successful because it meant they didn't have to pay for an OEM Windows XP license.
yet
As I always say:
...Most people need an iPad with a better keyboard, and a touchpad.
That's all they use their computers for. They don't want to mess with filesystems or specs or any concepts like that, they just want to add text to their kid's picture or send an email or read a PDF or scroll YouTube, or do things like banking or streaming that are honestly better supported as iOS apps anyway.
And that's basically what the Neo is.
Laptop makers are up shit creek if they insist on staying with Windows, as Microsoft stupendously bungled that experience.
If I were a laptop maker I would have seen the writing on the wall ten years ago and invested in Linux support, but hey
Well, technically, System76 and a few other white box laptop makers did. But they don’t actually make laptops.
And to be fair to big OEMs, “it uses Linux!” was a much harder thing to market before. I can see (outside of the Framework, which caters to enthusiasts) they only dabbled with it but didn’t invest.
Also, an HP or Dell Linux distro would be an unholy abomination. I can only imagine what they’d ship.
yea, it would certainly have been a long-term investment.
I figured they would just rebrand some big stable distro
To be quite honest if IPads could just run Mac OS apps on it, it would be a dynamite device and I wouldn’t have even bought my MacBook. I bought an IPad for note taking, and basic work tasks I can do via SSH. The lack of desktop app support was the only thing that thing couldn’t do handily.
Iirc the general assumption in tech spaces was that ios and macos are going to merge in two or three major versions, so I would imagine that apple is aware of this want in their consumer base as well.
The tech spaces have been saying that since 10.7 was released in 2011.
Eh, but will they? There’s a whole lot of OSX legacy Apple would have to throw away.
I mean, I guess they could; they’ve done it before with architecture transitions. But this is different in that stuff on existing devices would stop working, whereas Intel or PPC Macs keep chugging along as-is.
Of all the PC manufacturers, Apple are the ones who are most likely to sweep away legacy standards.
Remember when they ditched DVD drives altogether, and the tech world threw a shit fit. When was the last time you saw a new laptop with a disc drive?
They did the same with the 30 pin connector. USB-A as well.
Of course, they can get away with it because they can also dictate which machines get which OS updates, so can entirely block devices that don't have hardware they no longer want to support.
I always thought of it going the other way, leave osx relatively untouched and make phones run on it, rather than taking ios as the standard.
I don’t buy that. No way they “open up” iOS to be more OSX-like, as that would spoil their cash cow (the App Store).
I hate to sound so cynical, but I just don’t see any incentive for Apple to do that.
In Europe the price it's not that appealing, it's €699 and because they "care about environment 😉" the €99 charger (which is almost mandatory for a new user) is sold separately.
At €798 for 256g/8g it's not as good as the $599 they're selling in the US.
If someone is price sensitive, can get 3-4 refurbished ThinkPads with better specs for that price and run Linux much easier without hoping on some volunteer wizard to reverse engineer the proprietary components
It's because they're required by law to offer it without a power supply. See Article 3a, section 10.
Apple's first-party power supply isn't "almost mandatory", and doesn't cost 99€. The 20W model shipped with the Macbook Neo in other markets costs 25€ on Apple's German store, and a generic 8€ power supply from Amazon will work. The power supply most people already have for their phone will usually also work.
the problem is not that, but that they are still including the price of the charger in the deal
How much cheaper do you think it should be for not including a 20W power supply? I'd be surprised if Apple's cost for that part is more than 5€.
it should be cheaper with the full price of the charger
in my european country, apple's website says the 1 meter 60 watt usb-c charger cable costs 25 EUR, and the 30 watt usb c charger adapter costs 45 EUR. these are the most budget options I could find on apple's site
so, the devife should be 70 EUR cheaper, to be exact
Like any other manufacturer, Apple marks up the devices in their store. Don’t believe me? Go price out chargers on Dell or HP’s website and see how overpriced those are.
When's the last time you bought a laptop from any other manufacturer and had to specifically opt in to buying the charger
A year from now when Dell starts doing it on their home line of laptops.
The law is there solely to ensure the customer always has the option to buy the product without a charger, in order to fight waste. It doesn't restrict manufacturers from offering the product including charger as well.
For consumers it doesn't matter. Capitalism is capitalism. If the price of the laptop + charger is not attractive, consumers can buy a competing product. Arguably buying an Apple on a budget is a controversial choice anyway, as the ecosystem costs (software, cloud services, accessories) are generally higher compared to other OS, which have an open hardware architecture, less licensing costs and more competititon.
one caveat: the us price is without vat
I also hate that they no longer ship chargers, but it's a USB-C charger. Don't most people have at least one by now? The Neo in particular doesn't require a very powerful one.
Now the fact that if you get an M5 Max 16" MBP which takes like a 100ish watt charger (can charge with slightly less, but with 20-30 it'll be hopeless), you still get no charger, is utter bullshit because most people don't have such a powerful USB-C charger around unless they've had a Macbook Pro made in the last decade already.
Most definitely something they're doing for improved profit margins, but at the same time, slightly smaller boxes = more boxes per load of cargo = a bunch of CO2 saved on transport. Also they get to manufacture fewer chargers, as repeat customers won't buy multiple chargers anymore. I do think the impact is significantly more pronounced with phones which get replaced more often and where the charger would take up a bigger percentage of the total box size.
Got an L440, upgraded it to 16 GB and to i7, now it's a beast. Had to "reset" its battery, otherwise it didn't last for more than 20-30 minutes. Maybe will swap the screen to a 1080p IPS one and upgrade the WiFi/Bluetooth to modern standards.
Given the price of RAM, you'd need to sell a kidney to upgrade it in a Windows laptop these days, so that's not much of a difference, although 8MB is a little skimpy, I'll give him that one.
Have we already downgraded to this???
/s, and sorry for being pedantic
No one needs more than 640k
My phone has more RAM than that. I can't imagine running a computer with that little memory considering how poorly optimized software tends to be at this point.
I'm not sure what the overhead for Mac OS is, but that has to be basically rock bottom to be even considered functional unless you're running one of the lighter Linux builds.
I mean, at its heart, Mac OS is a heavily re-tooled fork of the BSD platform, so it's not inconceivable that it's light enough to run on 8G. I doubt it would run well on 8G, but it could do it.
My M1 MacBook Air idles at 1.03GB, my XPS 13 running Gnome on Vanilla OS idles at 2.4GB
GNOME on immutable distros = very bloated. Try antiX instead, as it uses a lighter DE.
I’m not looking for anything lighter
Even a bloated GNOME runs with much less ram than Windows
I’d be curious to see what Gnome looks like on Debian stable or the like
It runs fine, unless you load up on chrome tabs, or try to run pro apps. Itdoes basic photo editing and admin apps and phone holiday video editing just fine for average users. I have a lot of clients with 8GB M1 machines.
I know it was lighter than windows the last time I used Mac, but that has been quite a few years now. Hopefully it is a decent machine. Computing just keeps getting more expensive, so having more budget options is definitely good as long as they are reasonably functional.
MacOS' kernel is derived from Mach, though with with some BSD code, and is Apple's own work since then. Its API is compatible with FreeBSD, but it's not FreeBSD. And the FreeBSD userland tools don't have effect on systemwide memory management.
I got a free, going to be recycled, dell with 8gb of ram from work. I threw in an nvme and installed Linux. It's not the lightest Linux install, but it is Arch, so definitely on the lighter side. I idle at under 1gb and under normal use don't break 2. I do some coding which uses more but nothing super crazy. MacOS probably uses a little more ram, but it's not Windows. I'd wager than the vast majority of people don't come close to using all of that RAM, and power users are going to get hardware for the task, and this isn't it.
Under 1GB on a modern build is pretty light. I run CachyOS and I'm pretty sure I idle at significantly more than that. Though I honestly haven't checked, and don't really want to close everything out to find out haha. I do know I'm currently using more than 8GB and not doing anything super heavy, but I do have multiple programs running. And multitasking is always going to be a killer for a system with low RAM limits. There is a reason my laptop has 32 and my desktop has 64.
I did just check and I was wrong. I idle at 1.6GB. I may have been thinking of a single app I had open when I looked the other day. I did just open Firefox and it took about a gig. Opening about 20 tabs and navigating to different sites did Bum it up to about 5gb. So yea, 8 is on the lower end, but it's usable and I'd bet most people would be fine. Throw in things like swap and high speed storage, I feel most people wouldn't notice. Definitely not enough for high usage though.
I miss when 4gb was good enough.
I run CachyOS with Gnome and it idles at just under 2GB
I have a 2013 MBP that shipped with 8GB, the minimum amount they came with.
Of course it also is upgradable. Which I did, to 16GB. A decade ago.
My 2013 MBP is still at 8GB. With memory compression, I rarely run into issues unless I'm doing VMs/Docker or something really heavy.
Just to play devil’s advocate: a smartphone is definitely a computer and has no trouble competing with older laptop CPUs in benchmarks. I see this as a difference without a distinction beyond form factor.
8GB is 💯 barely serviceable. I see this is a product for a casual user only, with excellent build quality. I don’t think it ages well when pushed.
I mean… of course it’s for the causal users what kind of observation is that?
What appears to be common sense to you is hardly common sense to the consumer. I choose to be more inclusive thinking of a person who might not necessarily know what 8 GB means. That's a ton of Apple's customers.
What the fuck are you doing on a phone that you need 8 GIGABYTES of RAM? Damn son!
It's great for multitasking. I've seen phones boot and already consume 3-4GB of RAM. Alas, that's how much some of this software uses now, depending on your needs.
You can criticize the amount of RAM, but it’s still RAM. Clown.
They’re hinting at the fact that those 8GB are shared between the CPU and GPU. So it’s not dedicated, which you’d expect if someone said “RAM.”
Don't most integrated graphics setups use system RAM for graphics?
RAM is RAM. If you take issue with it being unified say so, but it’s still RAM.
He sounds like he’s grasping.
The neo is going to eat his lunch, and he knows it.
He did say so. 8GB unified when a Linux laptop has 8GB of ram and an Nvidia 5050 with 8 GB of VRAM is 16GB of Ram despite not being marketed as a 16 GB laptop.
Sounds more like you’re looking for reasons to hate on the article.
I take issue Hsus statement, but not the article.
This model has absolutely short-circuited the brains of the ardent Apple haters, perhaps including yourself, and I’m here for it.
Am I the only one even a little happy to see the head of a major company mentioning upgradability as an appeal for customers?
Please do stick with two unsoldered SODIMM slots for your laptops Asus.
I don't know what Asus is doing as I haven't owned one, but some manufacturers are finally starting to do LPCAMM2. Which near me is actually cheaper than SODIMMs. And is technically superior. One reason (besides being able to sell you a new device when memory goes bad) that manufacturers solder RAM it is that it allows for faster speeds than SODIMMs, at lower power requirements.
Really?!
The only laptop I was with LPCAMM was a specific Lenovo laptop that used LPCAMM to connect to a SODIMM daughter board.
Are there others you know of?
Thinkpad P1 Gen 7 and the upcoming T14 Gen 7. The latter got 10/10 in repairability from iFixit, and the T lineup has always been great at longevity, repairability, and drive-over-it-with-a-tractor-or-pour-water-on-the-keyboard-survivability. I'm suspecting most upcoming Thinkpads will have it. Some Thinkbooks do as well, but I don't trust any Lenovo without a Thinkpad name on it, and not even all of those.
Dell Pro Max lineup as well.
They're only just starting to come out. Within the next few years I imagine most manufacturers will have offerings with LPCAMM.
That may be the case, but the most irritating thing is that thy fill all available spots with the lowest-capacity chips that meet the requested provisioning spec, instead of taking the requested provisioning and using the fewest higher-capacity chips needed to meet the provisioning spec. The latter, at least, would leave spots open for an authorized repair location to manually solder on more approved chips of compatible spec.
He knows his market. As others have mentioned, most casual users don't need or care about that. Personal computing has become much more niche.
Lemmings that focus on the RAM spec are telling on themselves. 256gb storage is the real travesty here.
Is it, though?
If you like to actually do your computing locally, it sucks. If you're using it for web browsing, the specs are great.
I do all my computing locally.
I doubt I have a system using more than 256GB on a system disk. There's 14 running in the house.
You are a unicorn man doing everything locally is so uncommon these days it’s a small percentage.
OK not EVERYTHING.
It is not a lot, but it is not that hard to extend storage. For example with an external SSD/HDD or a NAS.
Even if tethering any portable device to an external drive wasn’t wildly inconvenient, you would be giving up your only usb port on this thing
NAS over Tailscale is remarkably workable for non performance oriented workloads.
Still doable, but you can't have external RAM. Hence, lack of RAM is a bigger issue.
More than 8GB of RAM is unnecessary, and getting around that limitation does not require any action by the user.
Setting up a NAS + tailscale solution is doable but not worth the hassle for whatever niche use-case that would resolve.
The perfect time for a relatively cheap Apple laptop when Microsoft is forcing people to buy new hardware just to use their latest version of their operating system. I wonder what the percentage of Microsoft folks who go to the MacBook will be. I wonder what the percentage of users who go the UNIX/Linux route would be. I'm not an apple fan myself so would go linux, but a good business move from Apple though.
Apple user share is beneficial for Linux user share.
That would be interesting to watch.
If I ever had to buy a personal laptop again, it'd definitely make the list.
Obnoxious hardware prices are what kept me off mac for so long. Now all prices are obnoxious maybe it would even out.
Great move if they can capitalize on it
They were making a lot on build quality, convenience, brand, ecosystem, cultism, software quality, but not so much on power.
Now power became more expensive for suppliers, and for things listed before it you have to restructure marketing and everything. Apple doesn't have that problem. They also have rid themselves of the legacy problem by two softer changes (dropping 32 bit Intel, then moving to ARM) instead of one hard change.
I'm suspicious.
I'm seeing social media FLOODED with Neo content. Definitely not organic.
Tinfoil hat aside, that could also be due to how disruptive it is in the tech world.
Maybe it's just a literal bomb to everyone involved in decision making and now making the waves in the news.
It could be.
But I don't see any other PC/laptop reviews by this author. He writes mostly about cybersecurity. And his Neo articles seem a bit...biased. Compare to his other articles, which are well-researched. Example:
https://www.csoonline.com/article/563017/wannacry-explained-a-perfect-ransomware-storm.html
My guess is either someone is posting articles in his name, or he's taking a free Neo in return for a positive review.
Maybe just a bit of both.
And a bit of both for that as well.
It's also quite unexpected, given that it's Apple, and they've traditionally made more expensive machines, with worse hardware. In my country, for example, it is nearly unheard of for a new Apple computer to cost less than four digits/US$800+.
Particularly at a time when it's more typical to hear of new computer prices going up instead, due to shortages.
I was very surprised to hear how reasonable (to some degree lol) the iPhone and macbook was priced.
Very hard to deny that they are very interestingly priced.
I honestly dont care about the 8gb of ram, that is plenty for the target audience given MacOS's pretty good memory management, and optimisation of the first party apps the majority of users will use. I would have liked to see the base price be $499, but that would probably have needed something to be cut down to outside of apples standards, like the display or chassis quality.
I'm a little disappointed by the limited USB, its just one usb 3.0 (not 3.1 as far as I know) and one 2.0, I know that's a limitation of the platform, there arent really any spare PCIE lanes on a phone SOC. They could have put in a USB Hub chip to get two USB 3.0 ports with shared bandwidth, but I suspect that was difficult to do with reliable video and power throughput and someone decided saving a dollar was more important. That's plenty for your average user, but a pair of usb 3.1 would have been preferred of course.
However.. how many average PC users even use USB now? maybe just a thumb drive very rarely or to use an external display. I'm surprised it even has a headphone jack and an SD reader honestly.
I'd suspect the next gen model to use the newer iPhone chip that should bump the memory up to 12gb and I think has a usb 3.1 controller, so they could break that out better.
I dont hate it. it's filling in what used to be the mid range of laptops that has kinda died in the last 10 years and is full of spec bumped versions of bottom tier plastic garbage with awful screens and short battery life, and a couple of underspecced cut down versions of nicer metal case laptops that are just not very good either.
I have to use MacBook for work, I guess it depends on the load but I doubt 8GB is enough unless you are just browsing, in which case far cheaper devices can fill that nieche.
Cheaper, but breaking in your hands. In case of laptops mechanical wear is important. This thing might be weak, but last a decade (well, I don't know).
Macbook build construction (ever since they've moved off the plastic entry level Macbook to all aluminum for all their models) is really solid but not necessarily rugged. The hinges and ports seem to hold up better than a lot of other devices from HP and Dell or whoever, but some models are more susceptible to drops, dust/sand, moisture, etc., than the solid construction would lead you to believe.
So it depends on use case. I think they hold up very well to normal indoor use, for many years, but might not be the ideal device for clumsier people or those who might be routinely using it outdoors or in more rugged environments.
I know. The hinges are what naturally wears in all kinds of hands with active use. So that's what matters IMHO. You open and close them, regularly. You don't regularly strain that plastic while cleaning it, and you don't regularly drop the thing or press against it. But opening and closing the lid is normal.
Also, yes, ports, which is why MagSafe is actually a cool technology, both less wear and more certain electrical contact. Anyway, I don't own anything with MagSafe.
Really rugged is about ThinkPads and really-really rugged special laptops the size of a few bricks.
Yeah, I think the RAM argument is besides the point. Apps can be optimised for macs in a way that they can’t for PC, and the target audience for this is people at school/college who need to do their homework, and people sitting in offices
Is it going to run super-powerful software? No. Is it going to replace a leet coder’s desktop PC? No
But it’s not supposed to
And if you’ve got the CEO of one of the largest computer firms on the planet saying “this is a serious threat to our business” then that’s worth taking seriously
Especially if you look beyond this. Apple won’t be looking at this in isolation. They’ll be looking at getting in to schools. Chances are that the OS you use in school will be the one you’ll stick with as you get older - especially if it’s also the one that workplaces are starting to use. And if you’re using Apple computers, well, then it makes more sense to have an iPhone than an Android, doesn’t it? Fitness tracker? Well, the Apple Watch is right there
And so on
This is a smart move by Apple. Probably the smartest they’ve made in years
the recent gen mac mini and the iphone "e" range was probably a bit of a warning that they were going to push their entry level equipment a bit harder... I think it's good for the industry to have some actual competition and disruption in what used to be the mid-range price brackets.
bring back the decently made, adequately specced mid range, we've lost it somewhere along the line.
I know their plan is just to get more people into their ecosystem, people will buy this laptop, or have it given to them buy a school or even a business, then they're stuck in the apple ecosystem and will be more likely to upgrade to their higher end models, buy their phones, cloud services etc.
wicked smart.
On my desktop I have more USB shit plugged into my system than I can count. Literally. Like if I were to guess, maybe 20 different things, roughly?
But yeah, maybe I'm not really an "average" PC user lol
The person this is targeted at is my 18 year old niece who just left for college. 2 USB ports is PLENTY for her.
My sister got her an iPad when she left but had this been out I guarantee she’d have gotten her this instead.
One thing I don't appreciate about Apple is that you have to use a dong(le) concentrator always.
But yes, iPad laptop version is what this is and a thing in demand.
They were preparing for an offensive and it's starting! The order is given, we are starting to bomb Wintel.
It'll be a better world. MacOS devices are pretty normal in the sense of being locked down, as compared to iOS. And there will be some competition. Apple winning is good, they'll raise quality standards. And they won't kill MS completely, just eat out a piece of the market, perhaps more than half.
Thing is, from Apple's perspective they don't really need users to plug anything in to a MacBook - particularly where this one is concerned.
MacBook Neo exists as an entry-level device to hook new computer users into their services. You don't need an external hard drive, because for just £5 a month you can access iCloud Storage. You don't need to connect a music player, because for just £15 a month you can have Apple Music. You don't need to sync a Kobo, because you can read Apple Books on your iPad or iPhone. And so on.
They made the same argument with the 2015 MacBook. It only had one USB-C as a nod to the fact that it needed to be charged somehow.
Personally I don't like that view, but I'm not the target for this laptop.
For a teenager whose primary use case is to complete their school work on this, that's entirely valid. And for the employee who's issued a low-cost computer so they can work from home.
If the user needs more/better IO, then they can spend more to get more. But why equip an entry-level computer with four Thunderbolt 5 ports that will never be used? And why go to the trouble and expense of retrofitting an A18 SOC to provide those TB ports?
"We can't believe Apple aren't fucking consumers harder! Apple?! have been fucking everyone so hard, for so long and people have just been bending over and taking it, and so we're very shocked to see them decide not to go maximum fuck-you with this product"
Maybe Asus should invest more into linux and start shipping it on their laptops by default? Maybe add an improved software compatibility layer for windows apps to get more people in?
Its still a Mac
Exactly which means superior build quality and a great experience. Parents will be snapping these up in the fall for back to school.
Lol
I hope the kool aid tastes good at least
Foxconn has never been known for quality.
Exploiting child labor? Sure.
Inhumane long hours? Absolutely!
Build quality? Hahahaha. Hahaha. What a tool you are.
Knowing apple, at that price point, performance is going to suuuuuck.
See for yourself:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncubg00Wbd0
Lawl you don’t know anything about Apple and the performance kicks the ass of similarly priced Windows machines. Keep spreading BS tho, I’m sure it makes you feel smug
Well good, maybe it'll incentivise y'all fuckers to sell actually usable machine instead of Bordeline e-waste Celerons with a 4GB of RAM in the ultra-budget segment
Can I put Linux on it? Because otherwise refurb Thinkpad Carbons are cheaper and better.
I’m sure Asahi support will be available soon. If these had 16gb of memory, I’d seriously consider it as a new Linux laptop. Even with the global AI-fabricated RAM shortage, 8GB hasn’t been a reasonable amount of RAM for over a decade.
Has Asahi matured? Last I heard there were still quite a few unsupported features like touch ID and displayport over usb c
I think TouchID isn't a priority for them, but looking at the supported M1 and M2 devices and features, it seems like it could be a daily driver. It has things I never got to work on my first Linux laptop (webcam, microphone, speakers, suspend, keyboard backlight, wifi, bluetooth), although it's 2026 so those are basically all expected. No thunderbolt, touchID, or display port alt mode, though, does make it a step behind MacOS, with some doubts it'll ever fully catch up even on this 5-6 year old hardware.
Still, these were very popular devices, so I think they'll stay on the used market for a long time. I might pick one up if it's cheap enough.
You can't really compare refurb to new. If you do, you might as well consider refurb Macbook Pros instead of the Macbook Neo too.
A new X1 Carbon is 1749 EUR starting price near me. The Neo is 719. A 5 year old X1 Carbon, refurbed, is 725. It's not a bad laptop by any means, but it also has soldered RAM much like the Mac, so at 5 years of age it may not exactly be super reliable past the warranty which isn't all that long for either case.
I think the real shock is the quality of windows and Microsoft, and the pc laptop industry also... When everything about a pc laptop is worse than a mac laptop, why do we expect?
It really is like no pc laptop manifacturer has pride in what they create anymore. They dont care if its a bad screen, shitty keyboard, horrible battery time. Just get it on market so the people can buy, and pay reviewers for good reviews.
It’s always super frustrating that even on “high end“ pc laptops they’ll use some shitty combined Bluetooth and WiFi chip that will bottleneck everything.
I got me a dell rugged laptop and the build quality is excellent. It's effing heavy but solid as anything.
For Windows if 8 gb of RAM is not enough that’s an own-goal. Because it is. Or it should be. Windows 11 is not so dramatically better than Windows Vista SP3 to require a 10x better computer to use comfortably. Actually, in many ways Windows 11 is a massive downgrade from what came before it.
I’m glad the MacBook neo is only 8gb. That means they have to support it as a usable low-end target. That means we aren’t jumping the gun on saying “actually you need 12 gigs of RAM” as if that should be normal for a usable computer.
XP used to just have ram sitting there empty waiting for something. Then over vista and 8 and 10 they started more and more preloading because hey if the ram is empty it’s wasted. Like database servers, they always suck down all the RAM possible. Problem is windows doesn’t release it when the cache or whatever isn’t useful and something else wants it.
It’s been a while but I think macOS is considerably better at both parts of that equation.
There’s no reason that computers need to be so powerful other than MBAs saying “optimization is too expensive, just push the feature.”
MacOS is significantly better than windows when using their first party apps, but many third party apps are ram hogs and things get forced to swap more often.
Swap isn't terrible though, a lot of current gen mac hardware has very fast SSDs and very low latency controllers so it's pretty transparent in normal use.
I think if you are on a website like this, this computer isn’t for you, but it is for a lot of people who use nothing but a web browser with one tab open 90% of the time.
They do typically have good hardware that works well together. It’s a ton of work replicating that level of hardware compatibility. Apple catches a lot of negative feedback and some of it deserved but they won’t be caught dead shipping a wifi chip as shitty as the one in my Surface.
Probably. I’m in the minority on an iPhone.
I'm a die hard Apple apologist in anti-Apple tech spaces because I love playing devil's advocate.
I've more or less never had WiFi issues on Macs. Bluetooth range was a bit shit on a 2011 Air I once had though. In an environment with dozens of other bluetooth devices in the same room. WiFi still worked fine, despite having probably 50-60 laptops using WiFi in the same room at any given time.
I've also had one of these famous 8 gig M1 Airs. I managed to hit 20 gigs of swap usage at some point when running several different applications and a lot of docker containers and it still ran just fine.
People often say their devices are shitty, but they're actually excellent. Their business practices are shitty, but when the M1 came out, it performed better with 8 gigs than any equivalently priced PC laptop with 16, even if it had to swap more often.
Vista called it SuperFetch, and preloading pages into memory is not a bad technique. macOS and Linux do it, too, because it's a simple technique for speeding up access to data that would otherwise have to be fetched from disk. You can see that Linux does it as you check the output of
freeand read out the buff/cache column. Freeing unused pages from memory is very fast, because you can just overwrite dirty pages.Yeah, conceptually it’s good, but the free up is important and seems to be a secondary concern. Perhaps it’s the third party devs.
Wasn’t super fetch what they called the high speed usb flash drives you could use as swap? That reminds me of a time I was optimistic about technology. Vista RC and Office 2007 on my MacBook Pro.
This is huge. Apple has traditionally supported its laptops for at least 5 major OS versions and 2 more years of security updates, so they're essentially telling us that the MacOS version they release in 2034 will not require more than 8GB of RAM to function is gonna be a good thing for all users, who will mostly presumably have much more memory available.
Yes, because Asus laptops all have non-soldered RAM...
A few do have non-soldered RAM, the most expensive workstation laptop and a couple of gaming laptops; all of which are >$2000.
I think what that poster was communicating is that shipping a laptop with 8GB of RAM would be okay if it was socketed (allowing for an upgrade by the user) or if the shipped unit with soldered RAM was greater than 8GB (16GB?, 32GB?,64GB? soldered).
Fair enough. Although Asus sells at least one laptop with 8 GB of soldered RAM, too.
Granted, it's "only" a Chromebook, but still.
Soldered RAM is almost always a bad thing, no matter the size. Maybe when it's the most the mainboard can support it's not too bad but even then you're out of luck if it ends up dying.
As far as I understand Apple is partly doing it because of the higher memory bandwidth, which is necessary for the way macOS manages memory. I still don't like it but at least they're doing it for a reason.
Chromebooks with low RAM are fine for many use cases. I've got a chromebook with only 4GB of RAM and its perfectly fine for web browsing or watching streaming which is the only things I use it for.
I used to think that too, but then I realized that the way I use computers (and it sounds like you do too) is to keep a unit a long time, take care of it, and use it to its limits (and perhaps beyond). There are millions of users that don't do what we do. They may be young kids that end up breaking the unit before 2 years pass. They may be a fashionista that has to change out their unit when the new fall color comes out (so they may not even own it a year). They may be an older person that only uses it to check facebook to keep up with their kids.
In all of these cases soldered RAM is just fine because the user will never reach the point they need to upgrade it. What they get in return for this is cost savings and likely a smaller (thinner?) unit, that is probably a bit more structurally sound (because it doesn't have to have a door or clips to have the RAM sockets accessible.
For users like you and me, soldered RAM is a bad thing. For most common users they don't care. They don't even know what soldered RAM is.
They should, because when it's time to sell the laptop one with soldered RAM is gonna be worth a lot less (at least to me).
Fair, but there's still the potential of it becoming a paperweight if the RAM chips give out or Google forces AI shit into ChromeOS.
There's an irony that the most valuable laptops for resale right now are the ones with soldered RAM. Why? Because the socketed units have their RAM stripped for resale separately from the unit. Even corporate fleets are doing this now and the bulk resale laptops are arriving without SSDs and RAM. Which units still have both? Units where both are soldered and not removable.
These sell for $149 USD brand new. A general user would not spend a second of time troubleshooting a failed one. They'd just buy whatever the current model is for $149 which would probably be 4x as fast and with more storage anyway, then pitch the old one in ewaste.
They've had Mac minis for over a decade.
I find this hard to believe.
Computer people (like me) buy Mac minis, frequently as an extra device. Regular people who don't care about computers beyond wanting a nice one buy laptops. I believe it completely.
I would assume most computer people would just assemble their own devices....
But that's the difference between real computer people and you.
Computer people might own several devices, some of them (particularly laptops) prebuilt, and don't usually gatekeep.
But that's the difference between real computer people and you.
Ah yes, tech nerds not at all known to gatekeep lmao
Tbf many of us can be real assholes online but all the fellow nerds I know irl are very inclusive and just excited when someone else shares a hobby
Username checks out.
Tyvm
This is attractive to me simply because finding a quality 13" laptop is very difficult. 15.6" is huge.
I switched to Macbooks specifically for the 11" Air. I do wish they'd bring that form factor back.
It really is not appealing a mac air with 16gb RAM was $999 AUD and the NEO is $899 AUD. It's a step backwards..
If you know what RAM is, this product isn't for you. It's for your kid or grandma
Which Air is that? I just looked at the current m5 Air, entry level everything is $1099 USD, i am guessing the one you saw was an older model.
I said was.
Just make some decent SD Elite laptops, preferably with Linux OOTB, I've been waiting...
I don't know what Windows have out of the box but is MacBook really content consuming device ?
Free build in OS offline office apps Word = Pages, Excel=Numbers, Power Point = Keynote, Notes, Calendar, Email, Reminders, PDF viewer = Preview, movie editor = iMovie, Journal, Password Manager = Keychain, Maps app ( yes you can download parts of map to use offline), Garage band where you can connect your midi devices and record them.
It has a mobile SOC which thermally throttles pretty aggressively, memory capped at 8gb, and a pair of confusing USB-C ports one of which is limited to USB 2.0 speeds.
It's actually a bit faster than the M1 and most M1 owners are still not upgrading because there's no real need. So you could reasonably do productivity things that aren't heavy ass 3D modelling or video editing. But with 8 gigs of RAM it'll swap a lot, wearing down the SSD eventually.
I wouldnt have said content consumption but it is going to be a hit with students who will basically use a browser for everything. They have cloud office suites by default and apple has student subscriptions to offer.
The failure rates of these will be the determining factor. The components inside are cheap, all soldered on, and will not be repairable at all (waiting on the iFixIt score).
Its pretty much just their phone platform with a big screen and keyboard, so maybe it'll be okay. It's not built like a phone though, so I'm expecting some interesting testing outcomes. It's either going to be cheap enough that they have a new planned obsolescence hit on their hands, or people are going to be pissed at it sucking so hard.
According to an early reviewer, the Neo is surprisingly good in terms of hardware quality, and it actually handles typical usage just fine, possibly because of the Silicon ecosystem that Apple spent so long refining. That looks promising, but I share much of your skepticism for the reasons you give.
I’m also waiting for the full iFixit review, but teardowns from other channels are now being shared and so far it looks like it’s very solidly built and repair-friendly. None of the typical ‘cover everything in excessive glue and tape’ anti-repair shenanigans we’ve come to expect from Apple.
Repair friendly means CHEAP components repair, which Apple just does not do.
As an example, in a machine like this if your WiFi module tanks...that's a full logic board replacement. Might as well buy a new one.
According to this, Apple is basically making an insurance vertical as part of their business, and they are pricing repairs to be exactly 1/3 the retail cost of the machine for pretty much everything except screens.
This is pretty scam my when you consider their past of quoting customers for repairs that are above and beyond the scope of the actual hardware failures, and what maximizes profits for their AppleCare and RMA process. There are dozens of breakdowns in this, so I won't write a novel, but it's very obvious they've baked in the costs to make it more cost-effective to just keep buying new units as a replacement in the face of simple hardware failures.
Wow. Modern laptop "repairability" is pretty rough in general, but that does actually seem better than I expected.
Tbh Apple laptops were always easier to deal with than non-pro PC laptops when I worked at a refurb shop.
Professional grade PC laptops (Thinkpad T, X series, Elitebook 700 series and up) were very easy to repair (and had more replaceable components than a Mac), but get your hands on a Pavilion and you'll want to pull your hair out. Using label remover to remove battery cells after removing an 8-10 screw bottom case on a Mac was quicker than even a simple HDD replacement in some PC laptops.
Of course it helped a LOT that Apple's lineup is pretty standardized and they don't change everything around every model year, so a LOT of part reuse happened. Which was the same with e.g Elitebooks and Thinkpads, but again, not Pavilions and Ideapads and such.
Every failure I’ve gotten from an Apple product is the inevitable demise of the battery either through degradation to the point of uselessness or expanding and causing something else to come undone. So the components just need to keep outlasting those events.
Always the keyboard for me, for some reason. Almost never battery problems.
Tip to used laptop buyers: avoid the MacBook Pro from 2016 through early 2020. The keyboard design dies early and is expensive to replace.
Your experience is not singular. Looks like we've got some haters here.
Factory batteries are top tier and get you around 1000 charges, typically about five years. After that the battery is around 65% health and time to change out.
Apple is no different from other manufacturers in that respect, maybe better quality cells than most. They suck at making those changeable, lately. 2011-2017 Macbook Air is about a 5 minute job. MacBook Pro from certain years you just want to throw it in a lake, or scrape glue for ages.
I mean modern smartphone SOC compute power is insane. That wont be a bottleneck for a long time. If i had to make a guess they dont even have to go the hardware failure route for planned obsolescence. That measily 8GB of shared ram for both CPU and GPU will take care of that. Just add a bit more shiny UI bloat with every update and this thing will get slow af at some point in the future. Takes care of all the entry level M1 Airs too...
Mobile chip power is insane AT THAT SCALE though. That's the key differentiation here. So if you're running a larger format display with a higher resolution, cut that by quite a bit. Also cut it if you're running desktop apps that aren't optimized for mobile, and if this is intended to run MacOS instead of iOS, the mobile optimistic memory scheduling is out the window. I'll have to see it to say for sure, but I'm guessing the performance for average desktop apps is going to be pretty, but that's kind of the price point.
This is Apple's scoop up of the ChromeOS segment.
Funny thing is that the Macbook Neo needs to drive less pixels:
Iphone 16 Pro: 2868 x 1320
Macbook Neo: 2408 x 1506
Also only at 60hz and not 120hz. While having magnitudes more thermal mass to cool with the prolonged high performance bursts. I dont have any worries about its performance in its intented market segment. And yes, its running MacOS which still runs pretty well with a Macbook Air M1-M3 with 8GB of RAM.
Resolution alone isn't the only factor. It's a larger display, requiring more power, which is either a PC/PD issue, or a battery issue. The point is that the power draw has to come from somewhere, and nothing this is the same platform as an iPhone (essentially), there's going to be a trade-off somewhere.
As you noted they've reduced the refresh rate, which makes a big impact, but I don't think it stops there.
The original platform has apps that are optimized for that platform, and now you're throwing a different OS at it which has more expansive use of resources: CPU, memory, GPU, and power.
We'll have to see how they have made paths through MacOS to account the platform specifically, but I'm betting there are several drawbacks. This was the main complaint of how they dealt with those insanely expensive Mac Pro with M-class chips when they first came out, but in the inverse. High power draw, heat issues...etc.
My guy,
i said mobile compute power is insane. You had a somewhat sensible take why it may not transfer to a laptop. I gave you hard facts why your concerns arent applicable. Instead of just admitting you misjudged the resolution differences you mansplain to me some irrelevant things. Yeah, the power draw is going to be different. Its a laptop, no shit. It also has tons of more space for a battery.
You are just talking out of your ass. Instead of looking up the wikipedia page for 2 minutes.
/Its also a released product. Reviews and benchmarks are readily available... Like what. Just look it up.
The industry problem is mainly that RAM makers do not want to piss off Apple, who has already had long term contracts set prior to rampocalypse. But 8gb linux native is a better product for systems that need to be offered at 8gb for affordability.
Honestly, I’m just surprised this is the first time someone has dared to put a phone SOC in a laptop chassis.
It seemed kind of obvious to me that a laptop experience on phone hardware (but like… with a bigger screen, keyboard and mouse/trackpad) was sort of perfect for most use cases. I just assumed that it would come in the form of a phone docked in to a hollowed out laptop. The core issue was just that the software was awful with such a set up. Apple just kind of bypassed that by having their whole OS and everything on it switch over to ARM and just running a non-mobile OS on a phone SOC.
It seems like Google is kind of edging that way by merging chrome OS in to android. And windows was maybe flailing that direction with windows on arm… but… I think that was mostly just them trying to copy Apple without really thinking to hard about it.
8GB of unupgradable ram is unforgivable in today's software landscape. Even if the OS is memory efficient, running multiple software still takes ram. I get it's a $600 laptop, but that's still an inexcusably low amount of ram for anything but grandma and similar.
I feel the specs are fine for the use case that the device is aimed at (media consumption, some office usage).. you know, the things that a huge chunk of the population use a device for.. if that doesn’t suit, there are more powerful options.
I don’t think it is productive arguing that an ultra cheap/low end device isn’t powerful enough, or specced high enough for activities/use cases that it wasn’t designed for.
the newer A series chips have 12GB of ram, so that bodes well for the next generation of the neo.
8gb is plenty for your average non-technical user, and macos is pretty good at memory and process management and swap as long as you are using mostly first party apps, which the average non-tech savvy user will, likely just the default browser and maybe the built in office suite.. that’s pretty much it.
its really a case of If you ask whether 8gb is enough.. you probably arent the target for this machine.
But can the MacBook neo have Linux installed
Despite the hits Asahi took losing two of it's most prominent devs (one of whom is basically a wizard, as far as I can tell), I expect it to attract more attention than the more expensive devices because it'll have a much wider potential audience. On top of that, lots of groundwork that was laid deconstructing the M1 and M2 chips means the team isn't starting from zero, despite differences in the chip.
It'll take some time, but it's basically guaranteed to happen and I think sooner is more likely than later.
I daily drive my personal Macbook air M2 running Asahi (only booted into OSX twice in the time I've owned it). I really like the experience of Linux (Fedora) on Apple hardware.
However, its still got some growing pains before most folks would be happy with it as their primary. One of those limitations abslutely applies to the Neo. Asahi Linux on 8GB of RAM is VERY cramped. I've got 24GB of RAM and even I run into limitations sometimes. The other issue is the current maturity level of power management. Asahi does not have full use of the low standby power states. This means that even with "sleep" your battery will exhaust itself in less than a day if its not plugged in. The alternative is to power down the unit entirely, which works fine to save the battery, but means having to open all your applications back up when you power it back up. Since Mac hardware doesn't use ACPI, hibernation is also not available, which would also be a fine way to address this.
None of this is criticism agianst the Asahi team. They've done AMAZING things so far and what exists today is fully usable to me. Improvements also come early and often. The team is amazing!
However, Macbook Neo probably won't be a good use case for Asahi Linux for the forseeable future.
Unless Apply does some weird bootloader locking shenanigans like what happens with Android devices.
Thatd be nice. Finding a "cheap" used or new laptop light weight travel laptop is a pain. And if you do find one they are so cheaply made the keyboard and screen hinges suck. Hoping if apple comes through with these cheap laptops the build quality stays the same. And I won't use macOS shit sucks ass.
I'm going to wager this is mostly an attempt to get more people into the Apple ecosystem. The more integrated the user is, the harder it is for them to get out.
Given the ram apocalypse, I think you’ll see many entry level pcs with 8gb as well.
Apple is either just that good or just that lucky that they are shipping an 8gb machine right after ram prices went parabolic.
At any other time this would be a harder item to sell.
I mean, you already see many entry level PCs with 8GB as well.
But you're going to continue seeing it, too.
Windows is DOGSHIT, I bet a lot of people will dump that pile of shit and move to Mac OS.
Why would you move to Mac os?
Windows still runs software from the 90s.
Mac's... Lol... Good luck with that.
I can't see teenagers and 20-somethings going, "What I really want is a laptop that runs software from the 90s."
Just because you have no appreciation for history you think no one else does either?
Just be nice to be so detached from reality
as much as I appreciate old software, I don't think Mac's target audience cares about it all that much.
... And Mac's target audience can buy CrossOver (74$, though). Or install DREAMM for many LucasArts games, the speed of development of this thing and its functionality are amazing, I wonder how much vibecoding was involved.
I'm not sure how you got that I don't appreciate history from my comment. That's some amazing mental gymnastics. You get a cookie.
You can run Windows on the Mac with some amazingly integrated emulation software and all that 90s software is there.
Parallels and VM aren't really the same....
This from the company that started the netbook trend with the $400 eeePC in 2007...
This is as believable as "air pods are for rich people"
That price still sounds like a ripoff for what you apparently get. Such is Apple.
Not too sure on that. In single-thread cinebench it beats high-end desktop CPUs from AMD and Intel. Now the Ryzen 9950X3D will absolutely DEMOLISH it in anything that can use all of its threads, but it literally lost in single-thread to Apple's phone SoC. And that CPU costs the same as the entire Macbook Neo.
You can spend 3k on a gaming laptop with a Core Ultra 9 288V right now that is in every other way better performing than the Macbook Neo, but still loses heavily in single thread performance.
Now I'm not saying this makes it the best deal ever, it's literally just one metric I'm talking about, but for the average user, single thread performance means the computer is more responsive overall, and a lot of applications aren't optimized to make proper use of 6 threads, let alone 16 or 32, so it might feel snappier than a significantly more expensive laptop from another manufacturer, especially if it's running Windows.
Shilling much lately?
It does seem still very impressive against other top laptop CPUs.
https://www.notebookcheck.net/Ryzen-AI-9-HX-PRO-375-vs-Ultra-X9-388H-vs-A18-Pro_19565_20016_18006.247596.0.html
Although I heard from Jeff Geerling's review that the neo often noticably throttles after a few seconds.
It also has pretty terrible IO.
I think the biggest attraction is the build quality, screen, etc. Most cheap laptops seem to cheap out on those a lot in my experience, and Apple did not. If you're not stressing the CPU or GPU, it'll still feel almost as high quality as any other MacBook.
For reference
The only potential concern I have is in considering how much casual PC market is left in the industry. I thought these users moved on to mobile, ergo leaving enthusiasts and professionals behind years ago as the remaining users. It might also cannibalize sales of their more powerful laptops because: who are the laptop buyers now? Where are they? Surely Apple did a market study, and they look set to completely dominate whatever’s left.
If I wasn’t going to use Linux, it would be Mac. Quite compelling despite the lower memory because we are in an expensive market.
Education and enterprise still have a need for a lot of group-managed laptops. Not all of them will be power users, either. Some of them won't even have sophisticated IT departments (thinking about elementary schools and the like where their IT needs might not run very high).
I agree that we're probably seeing the waning days of the casual laptop user who administers their own system as an independent device. Everyone will either be further up the enthusiast/power user ladder or will have switched to phones and tablets.
Same laptop with 4050, but new rather than open-box is $895 though
It was cheaper because it was not sealed-box new, otherwise it would've been more than the lower-spec $895 one 3 months ago when it still existed.
It’s a netbook with Apple’s bells and whistles. IMO it should be $100 less, at least for the base model.
It’s 13 inches and full macOS, can edit HD video without choking. Not a netbook.
You forgot the $200 "I get to use an apple so I'm fancy" tax
i just got 29 core i7 32gb rtx 5060 gpu for a about $500 more apple isn't really a threat here
reads the title
Well......those certainly are words. They don't make sense in that order, but they are real words.
8gb of RAM is completely unserviceable. A browser and 2 electron apps will have you suffering.
Yes - Electron makes some sense in a world where developer effort is expensive and memory is cheap. Perhaps the inverse of that situation will encourage more interest native apps.
Prediction - eWaste in less than 2 years. It will only live through 1, maybe 2 OS updates.
There's lots to criticize Apple for but they do support their hardware for several years, not one or two.
As someone who had an iPod Touch and a Gen 1 iPad ganked by OS updates, I have serious doubts about that.
One man's e-waste is another's Linux homelab.
We will optimistically be just climbing out of the ram shortage in that period, so I doubt this.
What are you taking about?
It is $599 + tax for me in Yankee Doodle land.
it's $499 for education actually
$599 here, but I also live in a state with no sales tax.
But that's the 256GB version. 512 is $699.
Of course I have 24TB free on my NAS soooo...
Still not spending $600 on an Apple branded Chromebook.
https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook-neo/indigo-256gb
13-inch MacBook Neo in Indigo
A18 Pro, 6-core CPU, 5-core GPU, 16-core Neural Engine
Apple Intelligence
8GB unified memory
256GB SSD storage
U.S. English Magic Keyboard with Lock Key
20W USB‑C Power Adapter
Two USB-C ports, 3.5 mm headphone jack
Support for one external display
OR... OOOOOOR...
$330:
https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/cty/pdp/spd/dell-dc15255-laptop/usedc15255hbtshqzk
Yeah, yeah, fanboys are going to go "A18 Pro" vs "AMD Ryzen™ 3 7320U with Radeon™ 610M"
But on the other hand, 15.6" display vs. 13", 120hz vs 60hz, 512gb storage standard vs 256. 65w charger vs. 20w.
Goose it to the AMD Ryzen™ 5 7520U with Radeon™ 610M and it's still $570.
I’d buy the Mac simply because it’s not a plastic 15” 1080p panel
If you’re buying based on specs, this isn’t for you.
If you're buying any Apple product on specs, it's not for you. 😉
That’s Canadian. Exchange rate makes it cheaper than 599 USD.