The forest center near me removed the bins. .. From their café/picnic area
They sell things that come in cups, or with napkins. Lots of people cycle/run/walk here instead of driving, seems pretty stupid.
Taking away the bins doesn't mean you don't produce rubbish....
Edit: I think there is still a bin IN the cafe, but most people eat/drink outside. Lots of people asking staff where the bins are. Still hypocritical I think though? (And still mildly infuriating to remove well used bins!)
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I used to work for the Woodland Trust and believe that this is the right thing to do. Bins in woodlands do not get emptied often and will often overflow and attract unwanted pests like rats. Rats will also eat the eggs of ground nesting birds and cause other environmental issues.
If they are selling food on site then the food vendor should have a bin that their customers can use inside their cabin/cafe and dispose of the waste daily as part of the service.
Think I found the problem— why not do the obvious thing and empty them more often?
Genuine answer here, as someone who volunteers for the parks. A lot of times the budgets are tight, depending on whose responsibility it is to clean up the area and what services are there/nearby, the staffing just isn't available. Yeah it's a pretty easy thing to do in theory, but in practice when it becomes "okay and 2 hours of your shift is driving out there and emptying the cans" it's not a far leap to just "Remove the cans, make the snack stand dispose of their garbage on their own"
I mean I get it, the cans are nice but also, like you're an adult. Throw your trash away on your own.
"But then people will throw it on the ground!" Okay then pay someone to stand out there and slap every idiot that thinks littering is okay because they couldn't find a can in 10 seconds.
It's common decency in plenty of places around the world to take your garbage with you until you find a can. It's not hard.
But you've removed all the cans rather than fix your budgeting problems.
I’m sure the parking lot or your house has one. Why do you think other people should pay for your laziness to dispose of your own garbage?
That's the function of the parks service. And it's taxpayer money, so it's my money paying for it too.
The function of the parks service is to maintain the parks, rivers, and forests (aka nature) of the area they operate. Idk what in your view makes "nature conservation" overlap with "making sure entitled lazy dickheads have a trash can every 10 feet they can ignore" but you might want to reevaluate your stance here. Govt funding is tight enough for these agencies trying to do what they can as it is. Catering to "But I don't want to hold my trash for 10 minutes" like a whining baby is not their concern. Nor should anyones be. You're a grown adult. Take your trash, shove it in a pocket or a bag until you can throw it away like an adult.
Do you think you are currently speaking to any litterers? What in the world makes you think a) your rant will ever reach them, and b) that it will make them suddenly become decent people?
People are shit. You get trash in the bin or trash on the ground. I prefer the bin.
So now instead of them being able to provide other services they need to continue piddling money away so you can be lazy and throw your trash where you please?
People don’t want to pay more taxes so you can just be lazy and need garbage cans every 20 feet dude… shitty take lmfao. They would much rather the money go to making things better, not perpetuating laziness and creating eyesores.
Do you think people like seeing and smelling garbage bins while taking a nature walk?! Seriously?
Better than seeing trash everywhere dude
With that logic, why go to this park? The parking lot is outside and with nature and your house would have trees and nature around. So we should just all stay home near our trashcans. Ridiculous.
… did you hit your head today?
That's literally the patio of a commercial place that sells food enclosed in trash.
If they rely on volunteers to clean the trash, a lot of people are doing lots of things very wrong.
Who’s gonna do it and pay for it?
If people weren’t such babies and cleaned up after themselves, we wouldn’t need to waste taxpayers money on cleaning up after adults who could do it themselves.
I dunno about you, but if I see a bin in a public area, I assume some is paid to empty it. I don’t empty it myself.
If you took your own garbage with you like a decent human, there would be no bins to be emptied and you would have better uses for that tax money.
Where did I imply the public should be doing it….?
So your entire argument is public bins are useless?
You understand that people should clean up after themselves whether or not there is a bin, but offering a bin is a useful service that greatly helps people out can be compatible right.
The cafe has a bin inside of it, put your garbage there before leaving.
They removed the bins from the public forestry path.
Not everyone is using the cafe? People are allowed not to eat in a private restaurant. The availability of a bin shouldn’t be dependent on spending money.
So, I agree with you, but them providing bins implies they're going to be responsible and empty them, and people should feel free to use them. They shouldn't have to try to predict which cans are fine to use and which ones aren't.
This post is them doing the correct thing if they aren't going to do that, and it isn't an issue. Put your trash in your pocket or your backpack or something. It isn't hard.
Sounds like there's a bunch of people and some kind of organisation that runs this area, after all, they made the decision to take the bins away. This is also a cafe area, so someone's making money off this zone.
THOSE PEOPLE ARE.
Yes… the sign is from the forest ministry no? So the government that your tax money pays for would be dealing with it.
If this was a businesses garbage, those usually aren’t overrun, since they have plenty of time and money to deal with the garbage.
But government agencies…? Give your head a shake bud.
great. good.
???
The problem isn't that a park removed their trash cans. The problem is that a cafe removed their trash cans.
The cafe still has garbage cans inside, and why would the forestry speak for the cafe…? The sign is from the ministry of forestry, why would you claim the cafe removed the bins when they stated THEY did themselves?
It’s like people just make shit up to get mad about. The sign told you who removed it for fucks sakes lmfao.
What makes you think the cafe still has bins inside? The OP here is claiming the bins were removed from the cafe/picnic area.
Because they legally have to? You can’t have a food service business and not have garbage and recycling bins….
Are you just gonna make up any stupid reason you can come up with now to try and save face that you can’t read a sign?
The OP also claims there is still trash bins inside; and the edit to add this information was done 1 hour before this guy claims there is no bins inside 🤦♂️.
So they can't afford to keep the land they have in trust so it is all the landless peasantry that should labor for the land holders because kindness ?
Wild argument. No one is "laboring for land holders", they're cleaning up after themselves for their own good and the good of everyone/thing around them
Me, via my taxes I would expect.
Because that would mean employing someone to empty them regularly, and as most woodland is few and far between in this country most woodland owners deem that an unnecessary expense.
There’s a cafe and forestry workers, is it that time consuming?
And how do they get the garbage to the dump? You would need vehicles, insurance, garage, maintenance departments… it all snowballs.
Just be responsible for your own garbage, not a hard concept.
The cafe will have a contract with someone to take away waste, this waste could be included.
I totally agree people should take away rubbish that they create, unfortunately many dont.
Public waste wouldn’t be included in the cafes waste, you expecting them to foot the bill?
Sounds like the cafe is run by forestry England. If they don’t want thick and lazy people to chuck waste around the forest and cafe area, I think they should provide bins. Unfortunately, some people don’t care.
In this instance, yes, but which is why I said the cafe worker should have an internal bin for customer usage. In most other cases there is no one on site for weeks at a time.
Didn’t realise visits would be so irregular, so I apologise for the sarcasm.
Also hate that people are shit.
This is right by the cafe/site office/car park though. The reception desk is about 20m to the left and staffed during daylight hours year round.
Not like it's in the middle of nowhere.
I get your point, there are very few bins elsewhere (mostly by the other car parks) and that's fine. It's just that the place that gives you rubbish makes it hard to responsibly get rid of it.
Isn't there a bin at the cafe?
I think that's the problem. I interpret it as the cafe removed their bins.
It’s a sign from the forest ministry, they removed their bins.
Why on earth would you think a sign from the ministry of forestry would be speaking for and removing a cafes bins…?
Read the fucking sign for fucks sakes. It’s literally, right fucking there.
Read the fucking post for fucks sake. It's right fucking there.
The sign says the bins were removed. The post headline says the bins were removed from the cafe area. This is a cafe at a visitor center at a forest.
Before you go insulting the reading comprehension of others, try working on your own.
Sorry to break it to you, but the OP explicitly states that they believe bins are still inside the cafe. In other comments they also claim they are still available at other nearby parking lots.
The cafe is a building itself and the park removed the bins from outside.
You realize that OP probably missed stuff or intentionally withheld information to make this sound worse than it is?
Says the one assuming and claiming with zero evidence that the cafe removed them…? When there’s a nice little sign that explains everything already?
Read the sign, and have a little critical thinking yourself. This isn’t that hard to comprehend.
The cafe is a building. Inside are bins, OP had even stated this, or is OP not a good source when it doesn’t align with your ignorance?
I’m calling you out, since this has already been figured out, and you’re just late to the party and saying “the cafe did this”.
No they didn’t, stop perpetuating that lie that is easily disproved by the sign OP posted for us….
May I ask the name of this place? I'd like to pull it up on Google Maps and have a look at the layout.
It's not like paper and plastic wrappers are heavy or bulky. Just hold onto it or put it your pocket until you get home or find a bin elsewhere.
So empty them.
Just take your garbage home.
I'm already going home.
Gentrified forest is the most cursed phrase I heard in a minute.
I think it's a pretty good description. Has a tarmac car park, cafe, bike hire, 3 go ape routes, wheelchair accessible routes and until recently, bins!
You should look up the definition of “gentrification.” There are a ton of options that don’t suggest that the homeless people in the forest are being forced out and replaced with wealthier homeless people.
Maybe “commercialized” would be a better word choice? Alternatively, “developed” or “sanitized?”
What does homelessness have to do with anything? Gentrification isn't specifically about homelessness, I don't see anyone else mentioning it before now... where did you pull that from?
Gentrification seems to mean the rapid renovation of an area to appeal to a wealthier crowd, which this could easily cover.
Generally, usage of the term “gentrification” refers to the improvement of neighborhoods - or other places where people live, like apartment complexes - and, due to increased cost of living, the displacement of the people who used to live there. Displacement of less wealthy current residents when gentrification occurs is so common that it’s implied. If it weren’t, people wouldn’t have such low opinions of gentrification.
If a forest has been gentrified, therefore, then - if you interpret “gentrified” in the same way - it follows that people who have been living there have been displaced. And since those people were living in a forest - not in a cabin in a forest - they’re necessarily homeless. Since OP didn’t say that they were building houses or apartments in the forest, that would mean that the wealthier people who displaced them were also homeless.
Since the context was another commenter calling “gentrified forest” a cursed phrase, I don’t think I’m alone in thinking that.
Poor people won't feel at home if there isn't trash strewn everywhere. They'd probably avoid going to that place.
You are right, I was thinking the definition more being taking it up market, fancier etc. didn't realise the term was more for the human effect.
It's like wilderness for Europeans!
Old people have moved there and the prices have skyrocketed.
This is the reason given in Australia by Parks Victoria
LEAVE NO TRACE
Advocate for minimal-impact practices wherever you go. Many people are surprised to find no bins in national parks. Waste attracts native animals, which can change their natural behaviour and harm both natural and cultural sites, as well as your personal belongings.
Always bring rubbish bags (and one for your neighbour) and take all your rubbish home. Help educate others about the importance of leaving the park pristine, minimising your impact on the delicate balance of the ecosystem.
Have a fence, sign, benches seems pretty antithetical to LNT.
Different country, different styles I guess.
I feel like you want more trash cans not less. Make it easy for people to clean up after themselves
That might sound backwards but it isn't
Squirrels and raccoons will rummage, and disperse trash. There isnt much you can do about that beyond 1. Harm wildlife or 2. Reduce trash.
Edit: Damn, this thread is full of people I would be fucking embarrassed to camp with. Where do y'all like to experience the outdoors so I can be sure to not cross your paths?
Or 3, provide animal-proof garbage disposals.
No bears left in blighty.
Yeah, typical Americans - won't look elsewhere for solutions...
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/bear-proof-garbage-bins-made-in-lethbridge-1.4542351
We have those all over the place. Large National Parks like Yosemite are a special corner of hell because you quite literally have hordes of tourists from all over the world visiting on a daily basis. Randos who've rarely ever left the city see a can like that and may not know how to use it. In a place like Yosemite that rando could easily be from anywhere in the world.
Meanwhile I know of dozens of these kinds of cans located in some very small parks and camping areas here in Wyoming and no one has any problems with them at all.
Us "Americans" have those cans already and many of us know how to use them. You'll need to find some other kind of shit to sling around.
You missed the the bit about dumbest tourists.
I get it that it is hip to hate on Americans right now, but your post is so unnecessarily self-righteous.
It's been hip to hate on Americans for decades. It's just more justified now. But you're right, not because of bears.
I can attest that people around me in the south talk about how they love nature but if opening the trash can requires more than 3 brain cells they will most likely just throw their in the back of their truck and know it will blow out down the road or drop it next to the trash can and be proud they are keeping some custodial staff employed
Or
4. Continue to treat people as spoiled toddlers and hire servants to clean up after them.
🙄
Or just like, pollute less and stop relying on others to clean up after you.
Especially when you leave your home.
And you think that's going to happen by removing the trashcans?
Think?
It's well established peer reviewed scientific literature.
That paper has nothing to do with trash or cans rofl
And when it’s full or people still don’t want to walk 20 feet to them?
Also nothing is “animal proof” it’s all resistant and reliant on humans not being asses. Which they always prove they are when it comes to garbage.
Providing garbages doesn’t make people use them…
This is the sort of case where I'll make an effort to pick it up and throw it away. Even better if visibly clean (not in the bushes, not wet) and something somebody may have just forgot.
If there's no trash can anywhere, I likely won't unless certain conditions align.
They don't magically empty themselves, you have to hire someone to empty them.
Which is the REAL reason places are removing bins. Everything else is just lies. They are reducing labor costs. That is ALL.
I'll go out on a limb that Raccoons won't rummage here :)
I agree with the sentiment but if they have a cafe selling things in disposable packaging then the best thing they can do is provide bins to deal with it. Pretending they don't generate rubbish is just a false accounting trick.
No racoons here. The previous bins had spring loaded flaps to keep the animals out.
There aren't many wild camping spots in the UK, especially in forests. Definitely no raccoons either haha. This area would be more for walking or picnicking.
Or 3) change the garbage regularly on a bin with a latching lid. (common in forested areas)
This isn't just a random bit of forest either, it's near a shop that's providing the public with a bunch of disposable items like paper cups and napkins. Not providing somewhere to dispose of those is inevitability going to lead to people leaving their garbage behind.
please clean up after yourself.
The only way this will work is if humans behave in ways that no human has ever humaned
There are countries where this is culturally how litter is managed. Japan is a fully developed example - bins are hard to come by, everyone brings their trash with them.
It can be done.
Unless they are in a car, take a walk along one of the less used roads and you will find empty food containers and piss bottles galore
Just putting in my 2 cents. I don't remember seeing any trash from my 2 weeks in Japan. The country is impeccably clean.
If there is a bin I will use it, if not I will take it home.
If you don't you are scum and deserve to be pilloried in the town square.
While it can be done you have to have a focus on the group over the individual like Japan for It to happen. The main issue faced in most of the countries where litter would be an issue are ones that are more indiviualistic. So you have to upend the entire culture of a country and move its focus off of self and onto the whole. Can it be done? Eventually. Will it be done? Not likely.
So for now, there should be bins. Lol
People who go to trails are not gaurnteed, but are more likely to care about the environment they traveled to go to. Mostly.
I'd give this some odds of reducing trash pollution. It can seem frustrating, but it MAY change people's behavior in a way that reduces litter. Behavioral economics can be counterintuitive.
EDIT: What matters is the result. If this makes more people litter, they should probably bring back the bins. If this reduces litter, they should keep it this way, regardless of how inconvenient or "stupid" you the reader find it.
No. Most people just start littering when there's no trash bins nearby.
Think of the stupidest person you know, etc etc.
Hardly an issue of stupidity. We've got shops a short ride away that sell you disposables with the intent of bringing them into the park. And we've got a park that's removed the bins used to cart the waste back out again.
The stupidity is in the policy. Either you have to prevent people from bringing this stuff in (incredibly difficult) or you have to manage the waste that exists by centralizing its collection and export (significantly easier and cheaper).
People that litter are atupid/lazy/poorly educated.
Unfortunately, if you don’t provide bins, some people are going to litter. Does my head in.
Selling food that comes with garbage included, in a location without bins, is littering.
But that's why you take the rubbish home with you, where there is a bin. Where's the end user responsibility?
You used "but" as if you were going to disagree with me, but then you didn't. It was strange.
Littering is a function of the laziness of the individual combined with the inconvenience of normal waste disposal. If you live in a neighborhood where trash pick-up is infrequent or unreliable, you're going to find a lot more littering as a matter of simple convenience compared to one where trash pickups are regular and routine.
The public expectation of efficient trash pickup also creates social pressure on individual neighbors not to dump illegally.
They're shit people. I take cans home to recycle because we don't have proper recycling at my workplace.
Yes, they are. But that does not make it better that there is no bin. I have been in a situation with no bin but trash that can not simply be carried (disgusting liquid) and had to dump it. That is extremely rare for me, I usually pick up others trash. But there are situations where you simply need a bin, no matter how green you are.
If you operate a business that sells things in paper plates and wrappers, you certainly have a moral responsibility to have waste receptacles to collect those waste products.
The problem isn't that a park lacks trash cans. The problem is that a cafe removed their trash bins.
I feel the same way, but about places that sell coffee having an obligation to provide a public bathroom.
Glares angrily at 7-11
Let us sing praise for the Rhineland Palatinatian Landesverordnung zur Ausführung des Gaststättengesetzes (Gaststättenverordnung - GastVO -), in effect since 1971, which mandates one toilet each for males and females in every restaurant or pub, and more for larger establishments.
Some toilets are more public than others, 7-11
The he cafe still has bins inside, they have a way to collect their refuse.
The park removed the bins since people from the cafe weee likely overfilling it.
Where does the sign say the cafe removed them…? The sign is from the ministry of forestry and speaks only for what they did. Remove the park bins.
How do you know that? You're not OP.
The OP edited their 5-hour old post about 2 hours ago according to the timestamp. Your comment is only 1 hour old 🤔.
You’re the one vehemently claiming the cafe removed the bins. So I throw that right back in your ignorant face.
For my side, we have a nice little sign that explains everything, if you would be arsed to read it that is…
"we don't want to pay human beings to do the necessary work created by our business, so we're offloading it to you."
fwiw removing trash cans and promoting not littering is proven to reduce litter.
It’s people that suck generally
Can you cite this source? It's my personal experience that people will just drop things on the ground if there's not a convenient trash can.
there's no way that's true... you mean people who can't hold on to waste until they see a garbage can, instead will hold on to it until they go home? doesn't even make sense
...huh? They want to cut down on litter by removing the convenient locations for people to dispose their would-be litter?
Fuck there are some incredibly fucking stupid people in charge of places right now...
Thats what they do in Japan and it suuuuucks so bad. By far my least favorite thing about the country. It's so annoying to carry trash around and the few bins that exist are so tiny and always overflowing.
People praise Japan for cleanliness but let me tell you it's not because of the lack of trash bins but because people genuinely care about spaces and more bins would just make that easier.
Weird, when Japan does it everyone praises them. I guess us western societies are just too trashy to clean up after ourselves.
I came here to comment on Japan, haha. Almost everywhere you go, no trashcans and no trash! Their society is like a hive mind in a lot of ways, though. I’m not sure it’ll work with Rugged American Individualism®
Edit to add: Damn, I just realized OP is in England. Maybe they can make it work.
I looked it up and they seem to still have them in train stations plus in areas where trash/recyclables is expected to be generated (convenience stores, vending machines, parks) so it seems like a bit of a stretch (also the reason for less trash cans being a 1995 sarin gas attack).
Even just the train station bit seems like an unfair comparison for places without any sort of public transportation (where people walked/biked from home). Yeah, I can see people being more likely to hold their trash if passing receptacles is part of their planned route.
No trash cans in the parks around here. Train stations tend to only have trash cans on the platforms, not inside the station (just my experience, not definitive). You just learn to carry your trash with you until you find somewhere to dispose of it. I don't see the big deal. If you do buy something from a street vendor say in a park or at a festival, they will provide a way to dispose of it. Also, it is not so common to eat whilst walking, so it reduces the problem considerably.
Japan takes the garbage bins away from cafes?
No they're there, however there aren't trash bins once you leave the food vendor. If you walk away then you're responsible for the trash. So people just finish eating and dispose the trash there. Even if it's a stall or food truck, you can hand your trash back to the staff, they will happily accept it.
If it's for carry-out, people will pack their trash for disposal at home (you'll see a ton of people walking around with backpacks and totebags).
Yeah for this reason, you don't see this culture of eating/drinking while on-the-go in Japan lol. It's too inconvenient. It's something that tourists have to adjust to. But it's nice - the country is very clean and beautiful, no trash in sight. You might see some little old lady picking up a piece of trash that isn't even hers lol. That's the pride they take in their country.
Also there's an important difference in Japan that should be mentioned. A lot of the success is due to shame culture. You will feel like a bad person and get the side-eye for littering.
As far as this sign in England - I think suddenly taking away all the trash bins for a place that relies on them would be a disaster! But if that's the plan, then maybe taking only some away here and there could work over time. People need to be trained after all lol.
Source: I spent 1.5 months in Japan
It's not actually much different in Germany, there's zero bins just randomly lining the streets. Areas with shops will have some, parks and playgrounds usually have one or two, but that's it. "Park" here is to be understood quite broadly, it might be a footpath with nice view and some benches. Bus stops also tend to have bins.
Lots of corner stores and vending machines in Japan that sell basically full meals and no trash can in sight.
I don't think people realize that custodial staff are different than general park staff. If they have bins then they need to deal with that whole process and have at least one dedicated employee. I'd rather have to carry my trash and let the park use that money elsewhere.
For what it's worth, I do agree it's probably "gentrification" in the sense that the concept of carry in/carry out is more prevalent in middle class communities, mostly because they are more likely to engage in hobbies where or go to places where it's a more prevalent part of the culture. I'm not sure non-middle class people have the same experiences/lifestyle that lead to thinking this makes sense to do.
Everyone praises them? The only times Ive heard (from westerners visiting/moving there) is that it is very annoying that there is never anywhere to throw away their trash
Different experiences then, because most people I've spoken to about it there and back home have talked about how clean it was despite that and commended the society for being so responsible with their waste.
Sounds to me like they just dont want to empty the bins any more. I suspect after a few months of picking rubbish off the floor, the bins will be back.
Or not and everyone will complain and stop going.
"We don't have enough funds to make the guys do that route, what do we do? what did you say Shannon? masquerade it as taking care of the environment? that's fantastic"
Hey ChatGPT, I'm a dork who works for a local council and we are cutting costs by removing two bins from a local forestry. Can you come up with a sign that spins the removal of these bins into a positive?
Growing up in the 60s, we saw anti-littering commercials, called PSAs (Public Service Announcements),on TV every day. Ask any older American what they remember about those PSAs, and they will say "The crying Indian."
Today, they never show those anymore, and i am seeing young people littering as a result. I was recently in a fast food lot, and saw a car pull in, a young guy about 20 get out, and throw a bunch old fast food trash into the bushes, then walk into the restaurant. He passed a trash can next to the door on his way in, where he could have tossed his trash, but he just tossed it in the bushes instead.
I collected up the trash, and set it on the hood of his fancy hot rod.
I've seen plenty of similar examples in the last few years, because young people dont see those PSAs telling them not to, and even their parents havent been educated to teach them.
Idk, that was before my time and it just seems common sense to me to not litter 🤷♂️ the trash doesn't just disappear and it will become someone else's problem.
It feels to me a lot of people don't care if it becomes someone else's problem and that mentality goes through all parts of their lives.
And that was the secondary effect of PSAs like the litter campaign. The underlying message was that we are all in this together, we have to live with each other, so lets try to clean up after ourselves because it benefits us all.
That message being burned in our brains at such a young age contributed to our sense of pride in America. Today, it's just everyone for themselves.
I've seen mongoloids throw trash on the floor while they stood less than a foot away from the trashcan. Should've thrown him in the trash.
I was born in the early 90s but I saw those PSAs in school. We were taught very early that littering is not only immoral but illegal. We were pretty much scared into thinking of the environment. I like that approach. Made me respect the environment into my adulthood
I remember those commercials they ran into the early 80's. Peter Sarstdet song in the background
This has been happening in New Zealand for a while. The theory seems to be that bins attract more litter and are a hazard to wildlife.
I was sceptical at first but it actually seems to work.
Perturbs me that they are selling food though. Surely yhe food sellers should have bins for which they are responsible in their immediate vicinity.
I don't think it works. I think the resulting litter is just more distributed and therefore harder to register. Instead of an overflowing trash can, it's a napkin here, a cup there, and a lot of it ends up eaten by wildlife or in waterways so not very visible.
Idk, it looks like it works (or maybe people are just getting better at not littering and it correlates), but this is one of those things that can be measured so I'd trust department of conservation research over my own anecdotal evidence.
No, a lot of people are actual decent human beings and understand the simple concept of packing out your own garbage.
If someone sees a full garbage, they aren’t suddenly going to become a decent person, no they add to the pile making it worse. Don’t give them that option, and well most people actually turn decent. Since to throw it on the ground and get caught is different than just “adding to the pile”. It’s amazing what a little public embarrassment can fix.
Or just...actually empty the bins?
And what if someone decides to empty their garbage from their vehicle filling it up and now it’s not being emptied until the next morning?
I’m guessing you would want someone standing there to empty it the second it gets full….?
Well first of all, yes.
Second, pretty sure that's "dumping" and not legal, so record their license plate and send em a fine.
Using a public bin to empty your vehicle is illegal? That’s what the bins are for dude. Wow, you really have no clue about any of this do you?
In the US it isn't legal to dispose of your house hold trash in a public trash can. You can throw a few things away but if you show up with a few bags of junk you can get in trouble.
Depends on your locality but yeah, if you fill up a public bin with trash that can be illegal. You'll figure out things like that one day, when you grow up.
How do trash cans attract more litter?
I don't know. I haven't seen the research.
I was alarmed by it at first but it's been a few years now and the parks where I go which used to have them don't seem any more littered fwiw. If anything less so.
But that's anecdotal and as I understand it the decision was made based on more than that.
One problem with outside bins is that the wildlife is naturally drawn to them and the contents can be damaging to them as well as desensitising animals to people, plus things like squirrels and birds will pull rubbish out of the bins and spread it around.
Why not put that on the sign then instead of some vague, unrelated bollocks that doesn't justify the removal? If that's the case then I feel the wording on the sign is borderline dishonest.
You can have wildlife proof bins.
Wait, so there are bins inside and they don't want bins outside because it's a wildlife area?
Sounds like OP's a little lazy, this is a very understandable change
But they sell disposable items, likely for profit. They can't have a system to dispose of trash in a responsible manner?
Most of these places, at least in Canada, are strictly operated as not-for-profit establishments, with focus on as little actual litter as possible. So no plastic lids or straws, no packaging. Wooden stir sticks, brown paper bags, etc. Local produce only. While these decompose easily, it's still unsightly, so most of Parcs Canada / SEPAQ doesn't have bins outside either.
I'd be disappointed if this were not the way that things are being done in England.
This is false. Any location at Parks Canada that sells concessions will have a gargabe bin usually 55gal drum. Also there are multiple bear proof sortable garbage bins recycling bins and propane bottle disposal.
Sounds like they have bins inside. That is responsible no?
You have the right to purchase something, doesn't mean you have the right of convenience.
Is only mildly annoying. Lots of people asking where the bins though.
I can see a lot of paper cups being left in tables etc
What inside? Inside at your home maybe.
Pack in, Pack out.
I was walkin' through the forest
And a sign said they removed the bins to produce less rubbish
"We kindly ask all visitors to take their litter home!"
Man, what do I look like, a garbage bin?
I threw it on the ground!
We survive that way in Japan with almost no bins. Of course the odd person litters, but most don't; if we can pack it in, we can pack it out. Now, if there were no bin inside the cafe, that would be idiotic.
I do have the impression that Japanese people have a much stronger "social responsibility" with public stuff compared to most westerners.
Whilst this is not wrong and shame is a big motivator in Japan, some otherwise bored cops fining literers for a while would probably prevent that situation. On the other hand, I think maintaining some bins (infra to install and hardware + maintenance cleaning and maybe the odd security check) would be cheaper, beeter, and friendlier
*all westerners
Really. Japanese society has a lot of issues on its own, but there's also a lot to learn from them.
I disagree with the broad brush as not all westerners nor easterners would fit into that (see rural areas that suddenly got disposable travel income), you are right that Japan is far from perfect but we could all benefit from some exchange
"To support our commitment to reducing the number of covid cases, we have elected to discontinue counting them. We kindly ask all infected to kindly die at home."
Skip that last sentence.
Maybe in some nations.
This is basically ubiquitous on many public lands, specifically here in the US. The term is "carry in, carry out." Bins accumulate trash (obviously) which in turn is an attractant for rodents, bears, raccoons, etc. which causes its own problems. Wild animals should not be artificially fed by human trash. Trash can also be blown out of cans, or scattered by animals. Overall, especially for low traffic environments, the best plan is to have people take all their trash out with them.
TL;DR: Pack out your trash.
The problem is parks can't or won't hire enough people to empty the bins out.
Because the people paying taxes would rather that money go to actual tangible benefits instead of paying for people’s laziness.
You’re the kind of person who doesn’t return their cart because someone “is paid to do it” aren’t you.
Removing trash is absolutely a tangible benefit.
It shouldn’t be there to begin with, so no it’s not. It’s fixing a problem of lazy populace. Just like needing a dozen cart wranglers at one store for people like you who refuse to return their carts.
Ok but IT IS THERE so maybe get out of your fantasy land where people are decent except for some reason when they see a trash can. In the real world, people fucking litter, so give them a trash can. Don't care what they should do, they are NOT doing it, so unless you can figure out how to FORCE them to not litter, work with reality and put out a damn trash can.
Lazy people like you litter, and they aren the norm.
Can you imagine how crappy parking lots would be if the majority of people can’t be decent human beings? Same applies to garbage.
If people litter, that’s fine, one or two isn’t that big of a deal, but an overfilling garbage can that 20 other people add on to is.
Do you just think everyone else is as lazy and acts like you do…?
Look, accusing me of being a litterer just because you're mad you're wrong is a bad look.
You can always take your trash with you instead of expecting someone else to take it for you. The culture of throwing shit away instead of reusing, and reducing, is so ubiquitous, that's the infuriating thing.
They should give me tea in a mug instead of a waxed paper cup (and plastic lid!) then!
Does the cafe not have a bin?
I'm not sure if it's a thing by you, but it's common where I live to carry your own thermos.
It mildly infuriates me that you can't see the logic in taking your rubbish with you when you leave.
While this is the ideal outcome, in reality people are just going to throw their trash in the bushes.
And they should be fined for dumping.
Or the park could invest in basic services instead of criminalizing guests.
Littering used to be illegal most places. It should be illegal pretty much every public place. If you're breaking the law, you're criminalizing yourself. This is like saying we shouldn't resurface roads because it criminalizes speeders.
People who do this already did even when bins were still there. Because placing rubbish into pocket or backpack is so hard!
Saying they are committed to producing no rubbish on site on a sign, then selling things that result in rubbish, is hypocritical.
Do you have an example of something that would be sold that had no resulting rubbish?
bread bowl lol
You eat the spoon?
i think they should invent bread spoons for that purpose
Bread comes in a package… The soup that goes in it had a container…. Utensils to consume…?
The cafe has a garbage, and they don’t want it filled up with public waste, so when you’re done, take it back to the cafe and they will gladly dispose of their garbage for you.
Food that comes on reused plates and/or drinks in reused cups. Much of the advertising around littering prevention was developed by industries who saw profits in creating a lot of single use items that wanted to shift the blame for any litter to individuals instead of them. When you see an empty bottle of Pepsi floating in a pond, Pepsi deserves more criticism than whoever dropped that specific bottle since they are the ones who brought it into the world, and they do it on a much larger scale than any 1 person could ever manage.
The food all came in packaging, and stuff breaks or gets dropped, NOTHING is ever rubbish free dude…
Take your garbage back to cafe, they removed the bins so it wouldn’t be filled up by other people’s shit.
If you are a business generating rubbish, it is your moral responsibility to account for that rubbish. The business selling stuff doesn't have their employees filling their pockets with the bulk food packaging rubbish at the end of the day to dispose of at home; they have their own bins. They just don't want to be responsible for all the rubbish they generate cause it costs them more money than trying to put that responsibility on someone else.
Yes and if you take them their garbage they gave you with their food, they will deal with it. They just don’t want to deal with the public’s granola bar wrappers, so they are now where they control the garbage.
If you bring them your garbage and they dispose of it in their bins, does that not fit your moral requirement? Or do you want bins every 10 feet to satisfy your laziness? Can’t walk balk to where you paid for stuff to return the garbage….,?
You seem to think there is no bins… obviously the cafe will produce garbage, I never stated they wouldn’t. I was pointing out people like you, that there HAS TO STILL BE BINS. So yes, they do have a way of dealing with it. So take your rubbish to them, and they will gladly deal with it. Does that work?
No, which is why it's stupid to take bins away from stores/cafes.
I don’t see a cafe in the picture? Are you sure this isn’t down the trail and the cafe still has a garbage…?
Cafe deals with its own garbage, and I’m sure if you asked to put your napkin in it, they wouldn’t have a single issue.
The cafe obviously doesn’t want its garbage filled up with what people brought with them, they will deal with their own, 100% guaranteed.
Photo is under the red dot (
you can see the play area in the background of the photo)nvm, no you can't. But that's where it is!So the inside of the cafe obviously has bins that could be used… and they don’t want to PUBLIC non cafe people filling it…..
Do people even stop to think for 2 seconds before bitching?
So only mildly infuriating?
Going from OPs description as the sign doesn't show the area. There is a couple benches in the background, which leads me to believe it's reasonably accurate.
Obv the situation is a little different if OPs not being honest.
Even then, the cafe will take your garbage and put in their bin. They don’t want their refuse filled up with public waste as the charge would fall on them.
Clearly they have a way of still dealing with waste…. And why wouldn’t they take their own waste back? People are going off the deep end without even stopping to think for half a fucking second.
Or... You could just put a bin where the public can use it.
This is stupid.
A corndog with a twizzler for the stick
I can see taking things that I brought with me like granola bar wrappers and water bottles, but if you have a cafe selling cheeseburgers, fountain drinks, and coffee, it seems dumb to expect people to carry all that home rather than allowing them to throw it away at the same place they bought and consumed it.
Yeah but the Cafe does have bins inside. It's just the park that removed the public waste bins.
Well, I hadn't seen that mentioned anywhere, so if that's the case I agree it's not a big deal to pack your trash back to the cafe.
Yeah I guess that tidbit was added in later by OP when people started asking questions.
It's a cafe area; they are giving you trash with your meal/drink, not providing a bin for it, then expecting you to pack it out.
Expecting people to packout the garbage they brought with them is one thing (that still doesn't get followed); but if you're going to provide the public with trash, you've gotta give them somewhere to dispose of it.
The cafe has bins. OP amended the post admitting that they do. The bins are inside, but either way, they do exist.
It's like my university campus removing all ashtrays to stop people from smoking.
In the US they could just restrict smoking areas
Why can’t they have a dumpster with lid?
People are just going to litter if they didn’t plan ahead to bring a trash bag.
They had some reasonably nice bins with wooden shells around them and spring loaded doors to keep the birds etc out.
Just throw it on the ground
I'M AN ADULT
Did you mean throw?
All the regulars will because fuck you. It not about the environment. It's about them "cutting costs"
That's not how human behavior works...
Someone thinks they're very clever and they aren't.
There is a potentially good way to do this, ensure the cafe uses minimal packaging and what packaging is used is compostable. Then just have compost bins.
That's not how this works.
If you're planning a picnic, you bring your own trash bags, sort your trash, and dispose of it properly. And you will eventually make the effort to produce less rubbish, for example, ask to take your order without napkins or a plastic bag.
You operate a cafe and sell stuff that is trash 5 minutes later? You print a trash bin.
Don't buy anything at the cafe if you're not prepared to carry it out, I wouldn't.
Performative capitalism + fake environmentalism at it's worst. Ugh.
We all know there are plenty of trash cans available in non-capitalist societies, and everyone takes turns emptying them.
Dont know what you mean by performative capitalism, but carry in carry out is pretty standard fare environmentalism. Though these people are not carrying in, they are making the decision to buy onsite and should then accept carry out responsibilities.
I fully support the choice to remove the bins. I visited a beauty spot in Scotland recently that has a coffee van in the carpark. The young couple I took there went to add their empty cups to the already overflowing bin, and were baffled when I insisted they take them to the car, which was ten steps away. "But there's a bin!" Yes you numpties, and the wind is already spreading its contents everywhere. Be part of the solution, not the problem.
Think it's a mentality as well.
Had a friend in high school and after the drive in we went to, I cleaned up my trash and threw it away. My friend said "why are you doing that, they pay people to do that" and proceeded to leave her trash.
Didn't stay friends, but who the f thinks that way?
Entitled Amerikkkans.... that's who.
Pick up your own trash.
Not other people's trash.
YOUR OWN.
I will absolutely pick up other peoples trash if it’s somewhere like the wilderness. They should have picked it up themselves but I’m there now and that trash shouldn’t be there.
Me too....I bring bags with me and clean up places I hike / fish / camp....I try to leave places better than when I found it and it absolutely irks me when people can't be bothered to throw their own trash away.
I guess it wasn't clear that I think it's ridiculous that people can't even pick up their own trash.
You sound like tool
Ahahahahahahaha
When I was visiting England I remember my grandpa and I walking around London looking for a trash can and being shocked at how rare they were compared to the US
One reason that the UK has few trash cans is because of the IRA, a
terrorist organization[edit: paramilitary organization] that would plant bombs in them. It is kind of a sore point when Americans notice stuff like this, because US citizens were significant donors to the IRA.N.B. There isn't a reason why you should know this.
source: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/1cxsvp/how_prevalent_was_american_funding_of_the_irish/
So bring our own bin and pickup the stuff other people dropped as well?
See how much garbage you can stack on/wedge into the sign before they put bins back there.
I think the site office has a post box
That's just a hassle for the postal service and people sending mail; they undoubtedly have nothing to do with this. (tampering with mail is also a felony...)
As in, their reception's front door has a letter box.
Ah, I see. I was picturing the typical standalone postbox that you deposit letters to be mailed in.
there is a bin in the café according to you lmao.
this is ridiculous tbh, protecting wildlife is more important than your convenience in that place lmao, you're annoyed that you have to walk inside to throw your trash?? wtf lol.
The only problem with the bins that got removed had with wildlife was when wasps nested in them one year. They had sprung loaded flaps
There are probably just going to be more people dropping trash on the floor instead of a bin
Geniuses have no understanding of how some people can be dirty.
This is an interesting read:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0272494421001225?via=ihub
For some context: This paper discusses how more trash cans negatively impact how people perceive a natural space, but removing them without providing effective signage may increase litter.
A combination of effective signage and having easily accessible bins (for staff to maintain) near park entries and exits lowered the amount of litter and improved how people perceived the natural space.
It's been this way as long as I can remember down at Moors Valley. From my limited observations there, it surprisingly works much better than you might expect.
Yeah I have seen a lot of trash cans in public parks that get ransacked by wildlife. Raccoons or even crows throwing all the trash out to get into a bag of fast food.
If someone can carry loaded food packaging in they should bring their own bag and pack it all out. It is probably better to lighten the load on the forestry workers by having a smaller number of receptacles available.
I wouldn't be mildly infuriated by this at all. I try to pick up any trash I see anyhow. It is convenient but doesn't bother me if I take it home and get rid of it there .
You said carry in. OP said this is a cafe, so not carried in. Acquired on site = disposed on site.
🤦♂️Doh
Looks like the bean-counters thought they could easily axe the trash cost by shoving onto everyone else. I doubt it will increase the natural beauty there.
We have a commitment to producing no rubbish on-site. Well, we had one, but then budget cuts took away our garbage bins, so now I guess you have a commitment to producing no rubbish on-site.
Just take your own rubbish home
there should be a rule that, if you sell stuff, which produces rubbis - you have to provide enough bins for said trash.
In my opinion in forests or nature parks everyone has the responsibility to behave respectful towards nature. This means do not even cause rubbish. If someone wants to sell stuff, then do not sell disposables. Instead serv in glasses or similar. On the other hand people should not buy disposables in nature parks. Just bring your own stuff e.g. thermos flask.
Yes, if they sell crisps, or coffee in a disposable cup, but don't give you somewhere to dispose of the packet/cup, that's a little unfair, but ultimately not that much of a burden, and if it is, don't buy the crisps, buy something else e.g. a sandwich that comes on a plate with no wrapper.
They should advertise at point of sale that there are no bins and you have to take your rubbish with you.
I think there's a lot of franchised businesses that do use this philosophy.
Translation: we fired the guy that empties the trash, it's your job now.
I get it if the trash can is a mile up the trail. I have a problem when they take away a trash can next to a picnic area.
I'm on board with this. Don't bring rubbish into woodland areas; and if you do bring it - take it back with you.
I'm sure the bins were very convenient - but its a convenience that only helps you leave trash in the woodland for someone else to collect. And as others have pointed out, the rubbish can cause problems even if it is all put in the bin.
So yeah, I can see that it is mildly frustrating - but I don't think 'take your rubbish home' is too much of an ask.
Yeah, I agree but if you know anything about human behavior, you would realize all this paragraph you wrote was for nothing because people are going to do what people do
I've just come back from a holiday which involved lots of hiking in mountains and woodlands. It's rare to see bins out there, and yet somehow the places are clean. But please tell me more about human behaviour. Getting insulted by strangers on the internet is so fun.
Relax buddy
So they're creating litter that they can bay about and use to make the park a members-only place.
Even Wait Disney knew this doesn't work
Walt Disney was a capitalist charging admission to a controlled capitalist environment. This is public land that we all collectively own and should care for. Trash bins add to overhead and are bad for surrounding wildlife. We can all just do our part. We owe Disney nothing. We owe the land and our society everything. Big difference.