Signal isn't federated ^[1][2][3.1]^; it's decentralized ^[1][2][3.2]^. Though, for all practical purposes, I would generally argue that it's centralized.
Signal relies on centralized servers that are maintained by Signal Messenger. In addition to routing Signal's messages, the servers also facilitate the discovery of contacts who are also registered Signal users and the automatic exchange of users' public keys. […]
One of the controversial things we did with Signal early on was to build it as an unfederated service. Nothing about any of the protocols we’ve developed requires centralization; it’s entirely possible to build a federated Signal Protocol-based messenger, but I no longer believe that it is possible to build a competitive federated messenger at all. […] [interoperable protocols] [have] taken us pretty far, but it’s undeniable that once you federate your protocol, it becomes very difficult to make changes. And right now, at the application level, things that stand still don’t fare very well in a world where the ecosystem is moving. […] Early on, I thought we’d federate Signal once its velocity had subsided. Now I realize that things will probably never slow down, and if anything the velocity of the entire landscape seems to be steadily increasing.
¶"Stuck in time". "Federation and control". ¶6.
An open source infrastructure for a centralized network now provides almost the same level of control as federated protocols, without giving up the ability to adapt. If a centralized provider with an open source infrastructure ever makes horrible changes, those that disagree have the software they need to run their own alternative instead. It may not be as beautiful as federation, but at this point it seems that it will have to do.
:::
Yeah. I love Signal but it doesn't belong in that list. Dansup (creator of loops and pixelfed) is apparently working on "Sup" that will be a decentralized alternative to whatsapp.
Yeah.. I'm bit afraid of "kbin Ernest Effect" (not sure what a proper term is) where personal issues pile up and the sole head developer just disappears.
Haven't followed dansup much but from what I understand he is much more open to pull requests and listening to the community, but time will tell. Right now I appreciate and love his effort, giving, and the impact on fediverse he is brining.
Given that I’ve waited 3 weeks to join his smaller instance of pixelfed.art, I can tell things are already piling up. I am hoping the kickstarter does help.
There isn't much information about "Sup", but if I had to guess it could be that dansup is making sup app with XMPP(rotocol) as the messaging protocol.
Originally it was supposed to be ActivityPub based, but recently they posted something about it being for XMPP, Matrix and IRC as well 🤷♂️ Maybe they decided to fork Pidgin 😂
IMHO Sup. isn't going to happen. They will have their hands more than full with Pixelfed's new popularity and maybe Loops.
Oh! didn't know that, I thought activitypub can't be used for secure messaging. Lol really hope its XMPP!
Yeah I didn't take it that seriously when it was announced right now. Just hope pixelfed stays afloat amidst the user flood and hope he can publish loops as open source soon!
100% agree >.>
Like as much as i love (and trust) Signal i would never call it the same as Mastodon or Matrix for Example >.>
This was like comparing Appels and Oranges -.-
My comment wasn't protesting the use of Signal; it was rather clarifying the misinformation in OP's post — ie misinformation that Signal is a federated service.
On my client, it’s all expanded and I see all the formatting characters.
Ah dang, that's good to know (though I'm not sure what to do as an alternative) — I was unaware that the collapsible spoilers weren't supported on Boost. I guess that means that Lemmy's markdown formatting hasn't entirely been standardized across the service. I personally have encountered some inconsistency on the Tesseract UI with CommonMark Autolink ^[2]^ formatting where the autolinks don't even render ^[1]^.
I recommend reporting this to the Boost devs to improve Markdown feature compatibility between them and the Lemmy UI.
Signal isn't federated ^[1][2][3.1]^; it's decentralized ^[1][2][3.2]^. Though, for all practical purposes, I would generally argue that it's centralized.
::: spoiler References
1. Signal-Server. signalapp. Github. Published: 2025-01-31T15:34:14.000Z. Accessed: 2025-02-01T09:24Z. <https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Server>.
- This is the source code for the server that Signal uses.
2. "Signal (software)". Wikipedia. Published: 2025-01-06T09:34Z. Accessed: 2025-02-1T09:30Z. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signal_(software)>.
- ¶"Architecture". ¶"Servers".
> Signal relies on centralized servers that are maintained by Signal Messenger. In addition to routing Signal's messages, the servers also facilitate the discovery of contacts who are also registered Signal users and the automatic exchange of users' public keys. […]
3. "Reflections: The ecosystem is moving". moxie0. Signal Blog. Published: 2016-05-10. Accessed: 2025-02-01T09:40Z. <https://signal.org/blog/the-ecosystem-is-moving/>.
1. ¶5. to ¶"Stuck in time". ¶3-6
> One of the controversial things we did with Signal early on was to build it as an unfederated service. Nothing about any of the protocols we’ve developed requires centralization; it’s entirely possible to build a federated Signal Protocol-based messenger, but I no longer believe that it is possible to build a competitive federated messenger at all. […] [interoperable protocols] [have] taken us pretty far, but it’s undeniable that once you federate your protocol, it becomes very difficult to make changes. And right now, at the application level, things that stand still don’t fare very well in a world where the ecosystem is moving. […] Early on, I thought we’d federate Signal once its velocity had subsided. Now I realize that things will probably never slow down, and if anything the velocity of the entire landscape seems to be steadily increasing.
2. ¶"Stuck in time". "Federation and control". ¶6.
> An open source infrastructure for a centralized network now provides almost the same level of control as federated protocols, without giving up the ability to adapt. If a centralized provider with an open source infrastructure ever makes horrible changes, those that disagree have the software they need to run their own alternative instead. It may not be as beautiful as federation, but at this point it seems that it will have to do.
:::
Rendered:
In the rendered text there are no links; however, there should be links at the end, as is shown by the CommonMark autolinks in the raw text.
I was using "decentralized" to mean that there isn't centralized control over ownership of the service in general — eg anyone can spin up their own server (impractical, imo, pushing it more towards being centralized) and people can use it (making it decentralized, imo (Please correct me if I am wrong, but I do think my usage of the term is appropriate in this way.)), but people who use that server can only communicate with that server (making it not federated). But yes it could still be said to be centralized in that it operates on a client-server model ^[1]^.
This is more an argument of definitions, though. I'm not trying to claim anything in bad faith.
That’s just open source, not decentralized. I can’t find a definition of decentralization that would even make it vague. From Wikipedia:
Decentralization is the process by which the activities of an organization, particularly those related to planning and decision-making, are distributed or delegated away from a central, authoritative location or group and given to smaller factions within it.
Signal has a central authoritative server and to use it with any other server you have to modify the source code.
Decentralization is the process by which the activities of an organization, particularly those related to planning and decision-making, are distributed or delegated away from a central, authoritative location or group and given to smaller factions within
Imo this fits my usage of the term — Signal can be broken up into many isolated servers ^[1]^ all offering the same service.
Depending on exactly how said open source development is occuring, I could argue that open source development is an example of decentralization. It may even be an example of federation (all depending on licensing and development medium imo).
Matrix servers keep a copy of any remote room an account on the server has joined, and it’s possible to recreate a room from the copies held on different servers. There are more details I don’t remember, but at a high level that’s how it’s distributed.
Storing messages of remote rooms in addition to local rooms is why people complain about the storage requirements of Matrix servers. They don’t realize it’s distributed.
but I no longer believe that it is possible to build a competitive federated messenger at all.
The fact that we have a telephone system that works with separate providers contradicts this sentiment. If I want to pick up the phone and talk to my cousin's puppy in New Zealand, I can do that without creating an account on his provider's service.
I don't understand why we've forgotten this as a society. Yes, it was difficult to upgrade the phone systems over the past century, but it's worth it in my opinion. I really wish we'd start seeing government regulation that says "you should be able to talk to someone on a service without having to create an account on said service." I thought the DMA would do this, but sadly, Whatsapp still requires an account to talk to people using that service. Very disappointing.
As for interoperability between services… Monetization of surveillance data. The social media companies are Ad companies, and they make their money surveilling people and selling access. It’s harder to build an accurate model of a person when only pieces of data is available, and they need to have more data then the other Ad tech companies they’re competing with.
It could be but I find the android app buggy (this month I've been using bookwyrm, GR, Open Reads, and The Story Graph to compare them all and still nothing is as smooth as GR. Plus bookwyrm has no apple app. I love where Bookwyrm is going but right now the switch is not the best
Are we claiming now that Activity Pub is the only protocol that we can use for the fediverse? I think XMPP is roughly 30 years old at this point, and I'm pretty sure Activity Pub is much younger than that. I could be wrong though.
But regardless, I don't see why Activity Pub has to be the only protocol we accept to be considered a part of the fediverse. It's not even like different AP implementations talk to each other all that well. My understanding is that Mastodon doesn't federate that well with Lemmy, and I haven't seen Loops or Pixelfed on Lemmy yet either.
I'd be happy to be corrected on any of this though, I haven't looked too closely into exactly how AP works or how it's supposed to interoperate with different applications.
Fediverse is about federation. It’s not Activityverse. So yeah, email, Usenet, IRC, XMPP, Matrix… all Fediverse, all an antidote to corporate walled gardens.
Edit: not demeaning AP, it’s a great achievement and the services built upon it are a testament to its quality and forward-thinking.
Signal, no. And yes, Lemmy's integration via AP is sub-perfect. Ie, I can (and do) follow communities on lemmy, with my Mastodon and pixelfed accounts.
So, work is needed, and only happens if a) same protocol is used, or b) bridge modules are used (like friendica does).
If someone made an xmpp bridge to talk AP, then it's would be one big network, like how a lot of irc nets get bridged with xmpp nets, which makes those one, singular, federated network. But until they start speaking the protocol the rest of the fediverse does, it's just another network.
And again, it's not a bad thing. It'll even probably get there eventually.
I'd like to argue that using AP is an inconsistent rule for membership. For example, Diaspora has been considered to be part of the fediverse from early on, but it doesn't use AP.
I don't really know where to draw the line. AP simply isn't suitable for some applications, but it makes sense to include it for branding
Both Wikipedia and fediverse.party consider Diaspora, and a handful of other (mostly defunct) protocols as being part of the fediverse.
I don't really like the use of AP to be a qualification of being in the fediverse. There must be a better way to qualify a platform, even if it means that use of AP is a natural consequence.
Absolutely, signal isn't federated, but I don't want my messaging app to be federated. I want my social media to be federated. Lemmy is good because it's open. Signal is good because it's shut.
That’s your preference and there’s nothing wrong with it. Doesn’t make Signal a Fediverse alternative. Matrix fits that use case.
I prefer my messaging to be federated for the same reason I don’t want my other services depending on the benevolence of a single actor. But that’s me.
I do, use Signal if you care about privacy. They are the only game in town when it comes to reasonably secure chat software. Sure, I would prefer a federated alternative but I haven't found one yet that is always end-to-end encrypted, open source, implements forward secrecy, and is user friendly enough to be used by my grandmother.
SimpleX is cool, but fails the "my grandmother can use it" requirement. Signal has the huge benefit that is just as easy as WhatsApp. With Simplex you have to invite each of your friends individually.
With Signal you just have to install the App and make an account to start chatting with your friends and family. SimpleX requires me to send a link or QR code to everybody I want to interact with. You will have a hard time convincing anyone to do that. Compare that to the first Twitter exodus, people chose Bluesky over Mastodon because picking a server was 'difficult'. The average person doesn't care about technology at all and will always pick the path of least resistance.
the author literally picked random projects from github tagged as matrix, without considering their prevalence or whether they are actually maintained etc.
if you actually look at % of impacted clients, it’s tiny.
meanwhile, it is very unclear that any sidechannel attack on a libolm based client is practical over the network (which is why we didn’t fix this years ago). After all, the limited primitives are commented on in the readme and https://github.com/matrix-org/olm/issues/3 since day 1.
That is exactly what it says. They knew about security issues in their library and didn't fix them for years. This isn't being ignorant, this is negligence.
Unfortunately, the switch from YouTube to PeerTube has not worked for me so far. I can't find a decent instance (not full of right-wing/conspiracy content) with interesting stuff that also allows me to make an account.
Yes finding the right instance on peertube is a nightmare — and also the general lack of quality content, or subtitling, which makes it as good as useless for deaf people like me.
Yeah, it is already hard to find reasons to use it for the average user, so people with disabilities (deafness, blindness,intellectual etc.) probably even have reasons to NOT use them (no subtitles, each instance might have different elements or structure that might be a nightmare for screen readers, it might be too complex for some people, etc.).
Creators should be hosting peer tubes. And they should host exclusively their own content. Fans of their can subscribe to whatever systems they want to pay and support.
For creators, it's a backup for when YouTube the project inevitably fails. For fans as well. But it's also a backup of their content.
Not to mention it lacks any (ethical) monetization options. And the app is absolutely rudimentary, lacking even basic functionality.
Framasoft made it clear they don't want to make it a Youtube alternative though, however it could be through plugins. So there'd have to be a company or cooperative using it as a base to build upon, which is actually realistic. Especially European ones; not because Asia wouldn't be interested in being more independent on the US as well, but because Framasoft is from France and Europe actively works towards this goal anyway with lots of money behind it.
For Mastodon, the people you follow will also need to switch. This is even harder than getting your friends to switch.
Well I switched from the birdsite to Mastodon because a) I like to shout in the void and b) see what other people are shouting into the void. Doesn't really ultimately matter who's doing the shouting. People who go to social media exclusively for news and updates are a bit strange when you really think about it. You've got to have the shout in you.
@jonjuan That's totally true! I tried to use WhatsApp just for work and Telegram for my friends and contacts, but only my wife and mom were talking to me there 😂. However, I think it's important to keep talking to people about alternatives. That way, we can switch from this "proprietary web" to a free one.
Remember the early days of YouTube? When people made garage videos for fun? Remember Vines? When people were making videos instead of businesses making content?
That’s what Peertube is for. It’s to have fun. Showcase your high school band. Talk about your potted plants. Share your excitement about trains. It’s not to make money. It’s to live.
I think it's just the colours for the peertube one. I like that it's three individual play icons to signify the federation aspect, but the colours are just dull.
The Lemmy logo always looks so sad or angry to me. Wished he could look happier.
The only ones on the right I really like are signal and friendica. (I had never seen the friendica logo before. This is really well done whoever designed that. Good job.)
All the big guys of course can afford graphic design teams and marketing/PR research.
The notable exception for me is mastodon. While I’m still not a big fan of that logo either, it certainly looks better than the X logo. I’m guessing Musk DOGE’d his design teams in favor of some yes-men.
That really is not a satisfying answer. It is incredibly nebulous and even if it did have a nice definition I guarantee most software developers will tell you a lot of software rarely reaches that state.
I can see why they might want to avoid 1000 GitHub issues bike shedding things but they could open source the code and just not have open contribution
Sometimes you’re ashamed of the ugly hacks you cobbled together to reach MVP, and you want to fix the stuff you know you need to fix first before being thrown to the wolves. I can respect that, for a limited time.
I mean maybe but you could also just say "we did some whacky shit here help us fix it please" and let the community help you in the effort. That's the beauty of open source. Then again they may have their reasons and frankly I'm not even interested in a TikTok like social media so w/e as long as they don't eat up their word it's fine.
Which I think dansup should deserve our trust on this for quite a long time for doing. It isn't empty promises if they already made Pixelfed and opensourced it.
Like.. I suppose it could be a grift, anything could but I see no reason to question their goals or motives.
Zero trust means there’s no trust assumed on the protocol - I.e. it distrusts all actors and the protocol takes steps to work in that trustless environment. I don’t know how that applies specifically to matrix.
technically nothing but it serves as a privacy respecting alternative to meta/google controlled messengers.
things like mastodon and pixelfed are rather easy to wrap your head around and replace their big tech counterparts with if you are the average user.
there is no real replacement for an instant messaging/sms like experience. matrix is at the moment still a bit too complicated to get into if you have come to expect a workflow like: download an app -> write your phone contacts a message.
so although it is not federated it is the best we have got at the moment in my opinion
Thanks for bringing it to my attention. It really looks like they managed to make an ID less chat as simple as possible. But the undeniable benefit of using one’s phone as ID is that when people switch, their contacts are already there. I think that friction alone will prevent normies from adopting it.
I support the cause in general but: Signal is not federated at all. It may seem like a decent alternative to WhatsApp but is it really? It still falls under the same US jurisdiction. Let's say the US gov starts agressively prosecuting dissidents and certain minorities (they already do): can and should we still use signal in this case? I don't think so. Sadly i can't name a much better alternative. Maybe matrix. But it has other issues.
Hi, I think too many people are focusing too much on the type of software included in this chart. I don't think the goal of the person that created the chart was to create the ultimate guide to move to the Fediverse or FOSS apps with all the options available for them. I believe it prioritizes simplicity, and it's clearly directed towards people unaware that these alternatives exist.
Most people I know don't even know what the Fediverse is, and I think this initiative is for them.
I know that debating which FOSS/Fedi apps are the best is a big matter of concern for people that are already aware of the problems some platform have. But focusing too much on this debate not only creates more division among supporters of FOSS/Fedi, but it is also drawing attention from the main point: Bringing more people to the Fediverse.
instead of switching ive mostly just been ditching entirely. I need less time interacting with internet people.
literally the only thing on this list im still using is facebook messenger, for my work colleagues. and youtube. everything else ive migrated (reddit-lemmy), or abandoned and torched
Loops.video isn't accepting new users atm. Even if it was, I got in on early signup and I have next to zero functionality out of it rn. Just informing the curious masses
I agree. If it's not libre from the start, we should not trust it. The term "open source" is ambiguous; they could just put it under some restrictive open-source license and then revert to closed source later. If it's put under a free software license like the GPL, then I'll feel better.
That seems a little extreme. I would maybe agree if 1) it wasn't being made by the guy who has already got an AGPL project in Pixelfed and 2) it was on open signups. Whilst software is invite-only or closed entirely I don't really see a problem in it not being open-sourced.
Loops really isn't ready for primetime. It's too new and unpolished, and will need a bit more time.
I wonder if peertube can scale. YouTube has a whole sophisticated system for ingesting and transcoding videos into dozens of formats, with tradeoffs being made on computational complexity versus file size/bandwidth, which requires some projection on which videos will be downloaded the most times in the future (and by which types of clients, with support for which codecs, etc.). Doing this can require a lot of networking/computing/memory/storage resources, and I wonder if the software can scale.
I was already on Mastodon by just having a Vivaldi (the chromium browser) account, and it's just lovely
I've spent most of the day setting up lemmy, even though I joined feddit.dk 2 years ago, it's only just now I'm taking it seriously.
And, while not related to the fediverse per se, I switched to linux a year ago.
The only service that's hard to drop/switch away from is Youtube imo.
I keep seeing this type stuff but neither peertube or friendica are genuine replacements at this point, mastodon is weaksauce compared to akkoma or a misskey fork, and loops is alpha software. also yes signal is centralized but it just works and has contact discovery so it owns matrix and xmpp when compared to whatsapp. basically none of this stuff is truly ready
Switching from WhatsApp to any other messaging service isn't a realistic option for quite many places. I'd be more than willing to switch but of all the people in my contacts (including my entire customer base) there's like 3 people using Signal but every single one of them has WhatsApp. Even the 60+ year olds.
You think email's UI is only "slightly" different than the UI of chats? I disagree very strongly. The two are extremely different. Email is this weird amalgamation of messages and forums depending on how your client displays it and everyone in the email thread is using it. You can have arbitrarily styling in messages. You can send messages to whoever whenever. Chats are much more focused and linear by comparison.
Not sure what to say to that. Nobody in my group would consider classic email and IMs equivalent, unless you're layering an extra UI layer on top like what the other commentor mentioned.
Agreed most others wouldn't use email as a replacement for casual chat, but its always seemed like an arbitrary choice. So many people waste so much space in emails because they treat them like letters, so the biggest difference seems to be the culture around them rather than the medium itself. If people formatted all text messages as
"Hello Dear Friend,
Here is stuff to waste space.
Here's what I actually want to say.
More extra stuff.
Sincerely,
Walrus"
I doubt we would see that much of a difference between them.
Oh sure, if you're using something like that I can get behind it. But then you're back to the network effect. Probably slightly mitigated since everybody has email, even if they're not getting it in a pretty IM format and won't be replying to it on the spot.
Yeah. This guide is going to make some rounds in my peer group. I've got a lot of dissatisfied friends who just need an easy guide to remind them what to try. Very cool!
I'm surprised this hasn't been said yet... but what I hate most about Signal is its requirement for a phone number. I don't want to be identified, and I want to be able to create multiple separate accounts with different identities if I want to.
I also hate the fact that it's a mobile-first service. Yes, there is a desktop application (and just one really crappy one at that), but it's clearly designed to revolve first and foremost around your phone and be virtually impossible to use without one. As someone who hates writing on a 3-inch screen, this is a also non-starter for me.
I understand the arguments about perfectionism, but this is too much. I'll stick with XMPP, Matrix and IRC, thanks.
It's meant to replace people's text messaging apps with .i imal barriers to entry. People's existing SMS/MMS contacts aren't stored by user account names, but by phone number.
When I added Signal to my device, I was able to open up my existing contacts and go.
My understanding from what you're writing (and from this article) is that the phone number is really the account number. That's all well and fine, but then they force you to verify that the number is yours (or at the very least, one that you have access to because you need to receive a confirmation over SMS), so you can't use something more private. And sure, it makes it a little harder to find your new contact, but I don't think it's really that big of a deal - just exchange your other "account number" via some other channel.
Besides, don't think for a second that when this identifying information inevitably falls into the wrong hands that it will benefit you in any way. "What are you hiding, citizen?" and all that bullshit.
The part of it that bothers me is the sense of entitlement that these companies exhibit. The "Give us your phone number or fuck off" sentiment is something I just refuse to accept. If Google forces us to do the same and we refuse, what makes Signal think that we'll do it for them when they're so much smaller by comparison? Especially when you're trying to claim you're more secure and private to people that much more tech savvy than average, this just comes off as not understanding your audience very well. I'm sure I'm not the only one that is holding out against using Signal because of this.
The last thing we need is more barriers to entry. People have hundreds of SMS /MMS contacts they'vebuilt up over decades. You can't expect people to say "fuck all that" and start over from scratch.
And you also WANT verification unless you want some bot setting up an account with my phone number so they can scam people pretending to be me.
It really sounds like your issue with Signal is it's not the correct service for your use. It's like declaring a wrench bad because it's not good at driving nails.
They used to allow their client to be used to send unsecured SMS. Then they stopped. Whatever they thought they were doing, they killed the simplest path to onboarding laypeople they had. I kinda gave up on signal after that.
Mastodon seems to be filling this niche (professional networking and job seeking) at the moment. I'm curious if something more targeted is emerging yet as well.
It took a day before I got my activation email. There was no indication on the website it was gonna take that long, but I'm guessing it's early enough that it might still require manual approval.
Are you kidding me?
I thought it was more than that when I called it a ghost town.
Imagine if in the entirety of Lemmy, in all channels of all instances, there was a total of 6 posts per hour, and none of them were in channels you wanted to subscribe to.
In my case I deleted instagram, instead of whatsapp I'm going to Matrix (I'll see who I get there), I changed Reddit for Lemmy and I'm trying to find an active Peertube instance that allows for account creation, live, and uploading videos
I'm not really all that invested in trying out Friendica, because Facebook is basically the exact sort of social network service that I really don't give a darn about. I wanted to check it anyway, but the only tangible information on what Friendica is about is the project/marketing page. I can't browse the instances. If I go to your massive social platform, the last thing I want to see is just a brick wall of a login page. Then I looked at fedidb and... um, those aren't huge user numbers.
So I guess I'll keep posting on the services that seem more sensible to me, like Mastodon, Pixelfed and Lemmy.
Unfortunately, I don't know a single person who uses Friendica, and that is also, unfortunately, self-defeating because there's no way I could convince them to go without more than just me using it.
And that makes it a Facebook replacement how? Facebook is terrible and the only reason I ever go there is to check in on people I know. I don’t understand Friendica at all. I can get all the social interaction I need from Mastodon, BlueSky and Lemmy if my goal isn’t people I know and just like minded people.
Funny, when Facebook started there was almost no one I knew there either. It was its doom. It crashed and burned before it even got off the ground. Orkut still reigns supreme.
I’ve never heard of Orkut, the only Google social network I ever used was Google+. When I first heard about Facebook I couldn’t even sign up because my college wasn’t a supported .edu…lol and I guess the Facebook format/design isn’t inherently bad, just the algorithm is horrendous. There are more adds and post from suggested groups than people and groups I follow on my feed. Then the post from Threads a social network I don’t even use forced on me and adds in the notifications. It’s just a garbage experience and way of going about things. Although it’s still hard to see the point of an alternative that the people I know IRL aren’t on when I have Mastodon, BlueSky and Lemmy for like minded people.
The point is that you can invite the people in your life to try it out. Just like Facebook in the early days. Except it doesn’t have the hostile UX of Facebook.
I miss Jabber so much. There was a brief time where my one XMPP client and an easy to install server could let me chat with everyone I knew, whether they were on ICQ, Y!, gchat, MSN, IRC, or AIM. We fucking HAD interoperability.
Loops really seems like it sucks. You can't see how long any video is, there's no way to thumb down really bad videos, and about 80% of all the videos seem like "really bad videos". I never even used tik tok, but im sure it wasn't content similar or it never would have gotten popular.
It’s for short form videos, it’s mimicking its competitors UX right now (namely YouTube shorts, Instagram reels and TikTok). Neither has thumb down or show you how long a video is.
As for content… the users generate content, not the software. So… how many good videos have you uploaded?
I’ve been on Signal for a while now. Have a bunch of groups but iMessage works with everyone.
It’s been a year and a half here on Lemmy. I still spend a lot of time on Reddit, but won’t comment there anymore.
I don’t WANT a Twitter replacement as it’s really only for celebs and idgaf.
I actually see enough value to pay for YT premium (kids complain incessantly about ads).
Friendica doesn’t seem to have an iOS app, and there’s a critical mass issue with wanting to connect with people that I know in real life.
I’m trying to get my Pixelfed feed to be with checking, and trying to be a regular poster, but it’s still REALLY sparse, and none of these offer the endless meme-video-clip scroll that my wife will have to have before switching away from Insta.
Great graphic! The only things I use on this list are reddit and youtube. Trying peertube now. I'm confused about whatsapp and facebook messenger - don't people just use the texting app that comes with their phone?
Nice to see the rear of them, was tough making the call to disconnect from a bunch of people, but I've told them where to find me. Hopefully it snowballs!
Ok, downloaded peertube (because to hell with Google and YouTube) looked around...
Um, is there not too much to look at right now? Are the people I normally watch on YouTube unable to be seen on peertube?
Don't get me wrong, all about decentralized everything but if the people I like aren't there I'm feeling a bit up a creek.
Or, more likely, am I missing something? Forgive me, please, I am rather new to this concept and how to work the federations and such.
It's not an alternate way to view Youtube, it's a totally separate service. You're not missing anything, if no one's using it to post content, then there's no content. Youtube is a tough one to compete with because the infrastructure needed to host that much data and distribute it is insane. Peertube is super niche and not many know about it, but I do wonder how fast scaling would become a problem if it suddenly got an influx of new users.
Are the people I normally watch on YouTube unable to be seen on peertube?
Basically this. There are some creators that either switched or publish on both platforms, mainly from the Linux sphere (and, unfortunately, also some crackpots and/or scammers who got kicked from other platforms), but overall, it doesn't have a lot of content, especially content that's on a "professional" level.
There will definitely be few content creators who post to PeerTube, if they are dependent on ad revenue. Those creators that are not, have a much easier time posting to PeerTube, because they essentially expand their reach.
My favourite Dansup line is " It's coming this weekend" not sure when this weekend is supposed to come around tho.
From what I've seen on the loops discord he's about to open source the app and self hosted backend real soon, he's been reaching out for people to set up and test out the server code.
Same with federation, that's not far away, I think he wants to test how the different instances connect to each other first before the wider federation.
He's finally starting to look for coders to help him with the backend and app tho, so that's a good start.
And I really do appreciate that. He's doing some good stuff and really hope pixelfed and loops (and sup) continue on the momentum that they've got and gain a substantial enough Userbase that they're really enjoyable to use. Just wanted to add the extra context because I think that's relevant too!
He just really needs to let people help him more, he makes good stuff but it's kinda obvious it's getting a bit much for him sometimes, which is how we ended up with the stuff in your link lol.
A few times I've jumped in to the pixelfed discord before he split loops into its own one and he'd be in some crazy long rant, then you'd see him delete all his messages, dude needs a break or to delegate some of his work to the people who keep asking to help.
Good dude tho, just needs a rest I think, the tik tok thing kinda put some pressure on him to get it going quicker I think.
Here’s a link you can use to share this post with your friends. The default share link makes you have to click to see the picture and many users will be confused and not click it.
I got the PeerTube android app. It's very bare bones. As a first foray into peertube I'm not sure it's the way to go. I think I've set myself up for failure.
Anycase, I'll dedicate some time to try find some pocket of content I like tomorrow. Getting away from YouTube sure would be nice.
May I recommend NewPipe on android? It's a proxy for YouTube/Bandcamp/Plus a bunch of other stuff including Peertube. As a creator, Peertube is nice, but yea, using it as a full time video watching platform just isn't viable rn unfortunately.
NewPipe is awful for Peertube. You have to add AND SEARCH every single instance manually. It's only useful if there is a creator on a specific instance that you specifically want to watch.
Wouldn't Matrix be a better alternative to Signal, since it doesn't need a number? Maybe it has a too difficult learning curve to the average user, though
Snubbing bluesky is a great way to get people to not take you seriously. When you're making a recruitment thing like this you need to remember you're trying to draw in people who don't fully agree with you.
Psst, OP included Signal in this post which isn't federated at all, so the argument of Bluesky not being "federated as much as they pretend to" is a bit irrelevant.
Things I've learned: the people in this community hate bluesky on principle, their principles are insular and toxic, and they can't read.
This is why people aren't going to mastadon more than Bluesky; because y'all're insufferable. I made the comment in context of the post, so why would you ignore it?
The fact that you or anyone thinks that matters is part of the problem. Not every federated site needs to be federated with every other federated site. That's half the point of federation.
Signal isn't federated ^[1][2][3.1]^; it's decentralized ^[1][2][3.2]^. Though, for all practical purposes, I would generally argue that it's centralized.
::: spoiler References
Yeah. I love Signal but it doesn't belong in that list. Dansup (creator of loops and pixelfed) is apparently working on "Sup" that will be a decentralized alternative to whatsapp.
To me this person sounds like they have too many big projects at once. I wish them success tho
Yeah.. I'm bit afraid of "kbin Ernest Effect" (not sure what a proper term is) where personal issues pile up and the sole head developer just disappears.
Haven't followed dansup much but from what I understand he is much more open to pull requests and listening to the community, but time will tell. Right now I appreciate and love his effort, giving, and the impact on fediverse he is brining.
The kickstarter was a good idea.
Given that I’ve waited 3 weeks to join his smaller instance of pixelfed.art, I can tell things are already piling up. I am hoping the kickstarter does help.
Damn. Yeah let's hope he can hire some help...
XMPP is an established federated messaging app with encryption.
There isn't much information about "Sup", but if I had to guess it could be that dansup is making sup app with XMPP(rotocol) as the messaging protocol.
Originally it was supposed to be ActivityPub based, but recently they posted something about it being for XMPP, Matrix and IRC as well 🤷♂️ Maybe they decided to fork Pidgin 😂
IMHO Sup. isn't going to happen. They will have their hands more than full with Pixelfed's new popularity and maybe Loops.
Oh! didn't know that, I thought activitypub can't be used for secure messaging. Lol really hope its XMPP!
Yeah I didn't take it that seriously when it was announced right now. Just hope pixelfed stays afloat amidst the user flood and hope he can publish loops as open source soon!
Multi-protocol would be awesome, hopefully down the line it'll come back around to adding some basic AP integration.
That would be rad if true ^^
Let's hope so! :)
Delta.chat already exists
Matrix?
SimpleX?
sup is how I update my FreeBSD /usr/src tree! Twenty years ago.
100% agree >.> Like as much as i love (and trust) Signal i would never call it the same as Mastodon or Matrix for Example >.> This was like comparing Appels and Oranges -.-
Don't let perfect be the enemy of good
My comment wasn't protesting the use of Signal; it was rather clarifying the misinformation in OP's post — ie misinformation that Signal is a federated service.
Bro put citations in his lemmy comment 💀
I wish more people did that ngl 💀
I wish Boost understood the collapsible spoilers.
On my client, it's all expanded and I see all the formatting characters. It looks/works great in a browser though.
Same with Sync, unfortunately.
Dang 😕. See my comment for a related response.
I recommend reporting the bug to the Sync devs to fix their Markdown formatting to improve feature compatibility between them and the Lemmy UI.
Ah dang, that's good to know (though I'm not sure what to do as an alternative) — I was unaware that the collapsible spoilers weren't supported on Boost. I guess that means that Lemmy's markdown formatting hasn't entirely been standardized across the service. I personally have encountered some inconsistency on the Tesseract UI with CommonMark Autolink ^[2]^ formatting where the autolinks don't even render ^[1]^.
I recommend reporting this to the Boost devs to improve Markdown feature compatibility between them and the Lemmy UI.
::: spoiler References
Based.
That person isn’t fucking around.
I take the issue of misinformation seriously. I try to be the change that I wish to see.
I do my best to cite any claim that I make. I would encourage others to do the same.
Signal is hostile to third party clients like Molly.im as well
That's not true. Moxie only had a problem with a fork called "LibreSignal" because it was using their name. He didn't want users to confuse the apps.
No it’s not. From literally your own comment:
For a decentralized messenger use https://delta.chat
I was using "decentralized" to mean that there isn't centralized control over ownership of the service in general — eg anyone can spin up their own server (impractical, imo, pushing it more towards being centralized) and people can use it (making it decentralized, imo (Please correct me if I am wrong, but I do think my usage of the term is appropriate in this way.)), but people who use that server can only communicate with that server (making it not federated). But yes it could still be said to be centralized in that it operates on a client-server model ^[1]^.
This is more an argument of definitions, though. I'm not trying to claim anything in bad faith.
::: spoiler References
That’s just open source, not decentralized. I can’t find a definition of decentralization that would even make it vague. From Wikipedia:
Signal has a central authoritative server and to use it with any other server you have to modify the source code.
Imo this fits my usage of the term — Signal can be broken up into many isolated servers ^[1]^ all offering the same service.
::: spoiler References
Depending on exactly how said open source development is occuring, I could argue that open source development is an example of decentralization. It may even be an example of federation (all depending on licensing and development medium imo).
Yeah, Moxie has openly shot down the idea of adding federation to Signal, and I’ve never heard them claim Signal was decentralized.
Matrix is federated, distributed, and decentralized.
XMPP is federated and decentralized.
It is? How so?
Matrix servers keep a copy of any remote room an account on the server has joined, and it’s possible to recreate a room from the copies held on different servers. There are more details I don’t remember, but at a high level that’s how it’s distributed.
Storing messages of remote rooms in addition to local rooms is why people complain about the storage requirements of Matrix servers. They don’t realize it’s distributed.
Interesting — I hadn't considered it that way.
The fact that we have a telephone system that works with separate providers contradicts this sentiment. If I want to pick up the phone and talk to my cousin's puppy in New Zealand, I can do that without creating an account on his provider's service.
I don't understand why we've forgotten this as a society. Yes, it was difficult to upgrade the phone systems over the past century, but it's worth it in my opinion. I really wish we'd start seeing government regulation that says "you should be able to talk to someone on a service without having to create an account on said service." I thought the DMA would do this, but sadly, Whatsapp still requires an account to talk to people using that service. Very disappointing.
How is the puppy?
As for interoperability between services… Monetization of surveillance data. The social media companies are Ad companies, and they make their money surveilling people and selling access. It’s harder to build an accurate model of a person when only pieces of data is available, and they need to have more data then the other Ad tech companies they’re competing with.
For the avid readers out there, bookwyrm is a fantastic alternative to goodreads.
https://joinbookwyrm.com/
Yes it’s excellent! Also noting for those that aren’t aware: Goodreads is owned by Amazon.
Folks should also check out neodb.social . it's good reads, letterboxd, and steam reviews all in one.
I've been looking for something to track my physical book, music, and game collections. An instance of this might work nicely. Thanks!
It could be but I find the android app buggy (this month I've been using bookwyrm, GR, Open Reads, and The Story Graph to compare them all and still nothing is as smooth as GR. Plus bookwyrm has no apple app. I love where Bookwyrm is going but right now the switch is not the best
It doesn't have an app, how is it buggy?
Might be talking about the Bookwyrm client on F-Droid?
I went back to check. This is correct. It's the un official one in f-droid.
My bad!
Is there a way to automatically add books to it when a book in my Calibre Library gets marked as completed?
Signal is not Fediverse! Element/Matrix is!
Element/matrix aren't part of the fediverse, either. It doesn't speak AP.
Matrix is federated, Signal is not.
although it is federated, it isn't apart of the fediverse, as it doesn't use activitypub.
I’d argue it’s part of “the fediverse” but not “The Fediverse”.
Fair point, definitely still apart of the same style of platform but not the same protocol.
afaik ap is no hard requirement to be considerted fediverse
Are we claiming now that Activity Pub is the only protocol that we can use for the fediverse? I think XMPP is roughly 30 years old at this point, and I'm pretty sure Activity Pub is much younger than that. I could be wrong though.
But regardless, I don't see why Activity Pub has to be the only protocol we accept to be considered a part of the fediverse. It's not even like different AP implementations talk to each other all that well. My understanding is that Mastodon doesn't federate that well with Lemmy, and I haven't seen Loops or Pixelfed on Lemmy yet either.
I'd be happy to be corrected on any of this though, I haven't looked too closely into exactly how AP works or how it's supposed to interoperate with different applications.
I mean, yeah... the fediverse, specifically, are AP servers, which is why we don't include diaspora for it.
It's decentralized and federated, to be sure, just not the "fediverse".
Fediverse is about federation. It’s not Activityverse. So yeah, email, Usenet, IRC, XMPP, Matrix… all Fediverse, all an antidote to corporate walled gardens.
Edit: not demeaning AP, it’s a great achievement and the services built upon it are a testament to its quality and forward-thinking.
I'm just saying that there's deficiencies in those other networks. Just that they are different networks.
Now if an xmpp user can directly message or communicate with a Mastodon user... then they'd be both part of the "fediverse".
I am a Lemmy user, can I message a Pixelfed user? All other AP users? Signal users?
Signal, no. And yes, Lemmy's integration via AP is sub-perfect. Ie, I can (and do) follow communities on lemmy, with my Mastodon and pixelfed accounts.
So, work is needed, and only happens if a) same protocol is used, or b) bridge modules are used (like friendica does).
If someone made an xmpp bridge to talk AP, then it's would be one big network, like how a lot of irc nets get bridged with xmpp nets, which makes those one, singular, federated network. But until they start speaking the protocol the rest of the fediverse does, it's just another network.
And again, it's not a bad thing. It'll even probably get there eventually.
I'd like to argue that using AP is an inconsistent rule for membership. For example, Diaspora has been considered to be part of the fediverse from early on, but it doesn't use AP.
I don't really know where to draw the line. AP simply isn't suitable for some applications, but it makes sense to include it for branding
I don't know of anyone who include d*, accepting the tiny number of d* pods that also speak AP.
I mean, nostr is also NOT part of the fediverse, but another federated and decentralized network.
Both Wikipedia and fediverse.party consider Diaspora, and a handful of other (mostly defunct) protocols as being part of the fediverse.
I don't really like the use of AP to be a qualification of being in the fediverse. There must be a better way to qualify a platform, even if it means that use of AP is a natural consequence.
afaik ap is not a hard requirement for being in the fediverse, matrix is often included because it has the same federation idea
Then email is a part of the fediverse? UUCP nets? IRC nets?
All federated, none speak AP.
I think a good working definition is "speaks the w3c standard AP". Otherwise, its totally lost its meaning.
what about diaspora?
D* generally isn't, excepting the few instances that also speak AP.
Absolutely, signal isn't federated, but I don't want my messaging app to be federated. I want my social media to be federated. Lemmy is good because it's open. Signal is good because it's shut.
That’s your preference and there’s nothing wrong with it. Doesn’t make Signal a Fediverse alternative. Matrix fits that use case.
I prefer my messaging to be federated for the same reason I don’t want my other services depending on the benevolence of a single actor. But that’s me.
Don't use Matrix the devs knew about sidechannel vulnerabilities and ignored them for years. This is peak negligence and should immediately disqualify you from touching anything security related.
You do not have a solution.
I do, use Signal if you care about privacy. They are the only game in town when it comes to reasonably secure chat software. Sure, I would prefer a federated alternative but I haven't found one yet that is always end-to-end encrypted, open source, implements forward secrecy, and is user friendly enough to be used by my grandmother.
SimpleX is better, you don't even need a phone number.
SimpleX is cool, but fails the "my grandmother can use it" requirement. Signal has the huge benefit that is just as easy as WhatsApp. With Simplex you have to invite each of your friends individually.
Scan a QR isn't difficult, there are also tantum links
With Signal you just have to install the App and make an account to start chatting with your friends and family. SimpleX requires me to send a link or QR code to everybody I want to interact with. You will have a hard time convincing anyone to do that. Compare that to the first Twitter exodus, people chose Bluesky over Mastodon because picking a server was 'difficult'. The average person doesn't care about technology at all and will always pick the path of least resistance.
Thanks
From your link.
That is exactly what it says. They knew about security issues in their library and didn't fix them for years. This isn't being ignorant, this is negligence.
No, Matrix is federated differently.
And Signal isn’t?!
Signal is centralised.
You now understood both my point and the OC’s, I hope.
Signal is not federated.
Bless your heart.
Unfortunately, the switch from YouTube to PeerTube has not worked for me so far. I can't find a decent instance (not full of right-wing/conspiracy content) with interesting stuff that also allows me to make an account.
Yes finding the right instance on peertube is a nightmare — and also the general lack of quality content, or subtitling, which makes it as good as useless for deaf people like me.
Yeah, it is already hard to find reasons to use it for the average user, so people with disabilities (deafness, blindness,intellectual etc.) probably even have reasons to NOT use them (no subtitles, each instance might have different elements or structure that might be a nightmare for screen readers, it might be too complex for some people, etc.).
Have a look here for potential instances: https://lemmy.wtf/post/15816115 and also check these links out for channels to follow: https://lemmy.wtf/post/15810205 / https://peertube.wtf/home
Ah. I see...
Don't worry, your successor isn't offering anything big. You'll still be around for many more days to come.
I don’t get the joke
Hear me out.
Creators should be hosting peer tubes. And they should host exclusively their own content. Fans of their can subscribe to whatever systems they want to pay and support.
For creators, it's a backup for when YouTube the project inevitably fails. For fans as well. But it's also a backup of their content.
Tech-savvy content creators, sure...
Your average content creator that wants to make Minecraft videos? Unrealistic.
I hate the monopoly Youtube has, but all of the federated alternatives have a learning curve the general public isn't willing to deal with.
Not to mention it lacks any (ethical) monetization options. And the app is absolutely rudimentary, lacking even basic functionality.
Framasoft made it clear they don't want to make it a Youtube alternative though, however it could be through plugins. So there'd have to be a company or cooperative using it as a base to build upon, which is actually realistic. Especially European ones; not because Asia wouldn't be interested in being more independent on the US as well, but because Framasoft is from France and Europe actively works towards this goal anyway with lots of money behind it.
A lot of youtubers make a living posting videos.
They dont have a good enough reason to risk going to a much smaller audience with no ads and no membership system
They also probably arent knowledgeable enough about computers to switch
You don’t need to have a YouTube login to watch those. But you can join Peertube to post your content that you make without money as an end goal.
Well I switched from the birdsite to Mastodon because a) I like to shout in the void and b) see what other people are shouting into the void. Doesn't really ultimately matter who's doing the shouting. People who go to social media exclusively for news and updates are a bit strange when you really think about it. You've got to have the shout in you.
(I'm only being half facetious here)
You also can't just switch from whatsapp to signal. I have hundreds of contacts on whatsapp that message me constantly there, and 2 on signal.
@jonjuan That's totally true! I tried to use WhatsApp just for work and Telegram for my friends and contacts, but only my wife and mom were talking to me there 😂. However, I think it's important to keep talking to people about alternatives. That way, we can switch from this "proprietary web" to a free one.
PipePipe is on F-Droid
Remember the early days of YouTube? When people made garage videos for fun? Remember Vines? When people were making videos instead of businesses making content?
That’s what Peertube is for. It’s to have fun. Showcase your high school band. Talk about your potted plants. Share your excitement about trains. It’s not to make money. It’s to live.
How is signal considered part of the fediverse?
Unpopular Opinion Lemmy and PeerTube logo look ugly.
Unpopular opinion: your opinion is not unpopular at all.
I think it's just the colours for the peertube one. I like that it's three individual play icons to signify the federation aspect, but the colours are just dull.
Yeah it’s an easy fix to update the colors, logo shape can remain.
I like the Lemmy one, but peertubes logo looks like it's gonna stab my eyeballs in my sleep
The colors in the peertube logo are pretty hideous.
The Lemmy logo always looks so sad or angry to me. Wished he could look happier.
The only ones on the right I really like are signal and friendica. (I had never seen the friendica logo before. This is really well done whoever designed that. Good job.)
All the big guys of course can afford graphic design teams and marketing/PR research.
The notable exception for me is mastodon. While I’m still not a big fan of that logo either, it certainly looks better than the X logo. I’m guessing Musk DOGE’d his design teams in favor of some yes-men.
They're horrible
Signal is centralized, loops is closed source and not accepting new users.
Loops will be open sourced later they say.
That really is not a satisfying answer. It is incredibly nebulous and even if it did have a nice definition I guarantee most software developers will tell you a lot of software rarely reaches that state.
I can see why they might want to avoid 1000 GitHub issues bike shedding things but they could open source the code and just not have open contribution
or they can also disable submitting issues for now
Sometimes you’re ashamed of the ugly hacks you cobbled together to reach MVP, and you want to fix the stuff you know you need to fix first before being thrown to the wolves. I can respect that, for a limited time.
I mean maybe but you could also just say "we did some whacky shit here help us fix it please" and let the community help you in the effort. That's the beauty of open source. Then again they may have their reasons and frankly I'm not even interested in a TikTok like social media so w/e as long as they don't eat up their word it's fine.
That means very little to me. Actions speak louder than words, and it would probably help the development of loops if it was actually open source.
Made by the same dev as Pixelfed, which did a similar thing.
Which I think dansup should deserve our trust on this for quite a long time for doing. It isn't empty promises if they already made Pixelfed and opensourced it.
Like.. I suppose it could be a grift, anything could but I see no reason to question their goals or motives.
For a lot of FLOSS projects, it's common to keep the initial team small, so a product can be delivered fast, and gets opened up later.
It's to solve the "too many cooks" and prevent bikeshedding.
A lot of corpo espionage is there solely to tank potential competitors, which include FLOSS projects.
Loops is anti-libre software confirmed.
anti? is it against libre software? because it doesn't seem so
Why does software have a political stance?
It's missing a libre software licence text file.
So Matrix it is?
I was told that unless you self host, matrix is less secure because it leaks more metadata. Something to consider
Leaks more metadata? What does that mean?
Damm, didn't know that, good to know
it's not even true information, the new tech stack is zero trust
What does this mean?
Zero trust means there’s no trust assumed on the protocol - I.e. it distrusts all actors and the protocol takes steps to work in that trustless environment. I don’t know how that applies specifically to matrix.
What does signal have to do with anything?
The post is really about abandoning the tech oligarchy more than specifically using federated technology.
technically nothing but it serves as a privacy respecting alternative to meta/google controlled messengers.
things like mastodon and pixelfed are rather easy to wrap your head around and replace their big tech counterparts with if you are the average user.
there is no real replacement for an instant messaging/sms like experience. matrix is at the moment still a bit too complicated to get into if you have come to expect a workflow like: download an app -> write your phone contacts a message.
so although it is not federated it is the best we have got at the moment in my opinion
I get that but the image is referring to it as part of the "fediverse" which it is not as it doesn't use ActivityPub.
Thanks for bringing it to my attention. It really looks like they managed to make an ID less chat as simple as possible. But the undeniable benefit of using one’s phone as ID is that when people switch, their contacts are already there. I think that friction alone will prevent normies from adopting it.
I know, I’m not even going to try. I can already hear the crying and gnashing of teeth.
I support the cause in general but: Signal is not federated at all. It may seem like a decent alternative to WhatsApp but is it really? It still falls under the same US jurisdiction. Let's say the US gov starts agressively prosecuting dissidents and certain minorities (they already do): can and should we still use signal in this case? I don't think so. Sadly i can't name a much better alternative. Maybe matrix. But it has other issues.
A federated social fitness app(like Strava) would be cool
Hi, I think too many people are focusing too much on the type of software included in this chart. I don't think the goal of the person that created the chart was to create the ultimate guide to move to the Fediverse or FOSS apps with all the options available for them. I believe it prioritizes simplicity, and it's clearly directed towards people unaware that these alternatives exist.
Most people I know don't even know what the Fediverse is, and I think this initiative is for them.
I know that debating which FOSS/Fedi apps are the best is a big matter of concern for people that are already aware of the problems some platform have. But focusing too much on this debate not only creates more division among supporters of FOSS/Fedi, but it is also drawing attention from the main point: Bringing more people to the Fediverse.
Thank you. Please jump in faster with a tldr of this on other posts like this.
instead of switching ive mostly just been ditching entirely. I need less time interacting with internet people.
literally the only thing on this list im still using is facebook messenger, for my work colleagues. and youtube. everything else ive migrated (reddit-lemmy), or abandoned and torched
Loops.video isn't accepting new users atm. Even if it was, I got in on early signup and I have next to zero functionality out of it rn. Just informing the curious masses
Loops isnt even federated or open source yet. Deleted my account
I agree. If it's not libre from the start, we should not trust it. The term "open source" is ambiguous; they could just put it under some restrictive open-source license and then revert to closed source later. If it's put under a free software license like the GPL, then I'll feel better.
That seems a little extreme. I would maybe agree if 1) it wasn't being made by the guy who has already got an AGPL project in Pixelfed and 2) it was on open signups. Whilst software is invite-only or closed entirely I don't really see a problem in it not being open-sourced.
Doesn't it says gullible in their ToS?
Loops really isn't ready for primetime. It's too new and unpolished, and will need a bit more time.
I wonder if peertube can scale. YouTube has a whole sophisticated system for ingesting and transcoding videos into dozens of formats, with tradeoffs being made on computational complexity versus file size/bandwidth, which requires some projection on which videos will be downloaded the most times in the future (and by which types of clients, with support for which codecs, etc.). Doing this can require a lot of networking/computing/memory/storage resources, and I wonder if the software can scale.
Yeah it’s no where near ready for mass adoption. It’s made a couple improvements, but it crashes every time I try to leave a comment.
Im using it now. I never used tiktok but i can see the draw now.
I find youtube to be the hardest one on this list
I was already on Mastodon by just having a Vivaldi (the chromium browser) account, and it's just lovely I've spent most of the day setting up lemmy, even though I joined feddit.dk 2 years ago, it's only just now I'm taking it seriously.
And, while not related to the fediverse per se, I switched to linux a year ago.
The only service that's hard to drop/switch away from is Youtube imo.
I keep seeing this type stuff but neither peertube or friendica are genuine replacements at this point, mastodon is weaksauce compared to akkoma or a misskey fork, and loops is alpha software. also yes signal is centralized but it just works and has contact discovery so it owns matrix and xmpp when compared to whatsapp. basically none of this stuff is truly ready
Switching from WhatsApp to any other messaging service isn't a realistic option for quite many places. I'd be more than willing to switch but of all the people in my contacts (including my entire customer base) there's like 3 people using Signal but every single one of them has WhatsApp. Even the 60+ year olds.
I like this. I hope it starts conversations. Does anyone know if there are good alternatives to Discord?
FB Marketplace --> Flohmarkt is missing!
Why didn't I hear about this until the day of?
Loop.video is “currently not accepting new members”.
Feel like Matrix or Email would have made more sense as a federated service for communication, but get Signal is a lot more well known.
Also an entirely different thing, email is nothing alike to IMs.
Deltachat would like a word
How so? Seems like just a slightly different UI for the same thing to me?
You think email's UI is only "slightly" different than the UI of chats? I disagree very strongly. The two are extremely different. Email is this weird amalgamation of messages and forums depending on how your client displays it and everyone in the email thread is using it. You can have arbitrarily styling in messages. You can send messages to whoever whenever. Chats are much more focused and linear by comparison.
Not sure what to say to that. Nobody in my group would consider classic email and IMs equivalent, unless you're layering an extra UI layer on top like what the other commentor mentioned.
Agreed most others wouldn't use email as a replacement for casual chat, but its always seemed like an arbitrary choice. So many people waste so much space in emails because they treat them like letters, so the biggest difference seems to be the culture around them rather than the medium itself. If people formatted all text messages as
"Hello Dear Friend,
Here is stuff to waste space.
Here's what I actually want to say.
More extra stuff.
Sincerely, Walrus"
I doubt we would see that much of a difference between them.
They are treated like letters because they arent instant, like letters. Hell, some emails could take full minutes to send.
Only time I have the problem is when people attach large files. While is the same problem with other "IM" methods.
E-mail is an excellent protocol for messaging, see delta.chat
Oh sure, if you're using something like that I can get behind it. But then you're back to the network effect. Probably slightly mitigated since everybody has email, even if they're not getting it in a pretty IM format and won't be replying to it on the spot.
Thank you for this! Bookmarked this post, downloaded the image, sent it to all my friends. Love you!
Yeah. This guide is going to make some rounds in my peer group. I've got a lot of dissatisfied friends who just need an easy guide to remind them what to try. Very cool!
Agreed!
I'm surprised this hasn't been said yet... but what I hate most about Signal is its requirement for a phone number. I don't want to be identified, and I want to be able to create multiple separate accounts with different identities if I want to.
I also hate the fact that it's a mobile-first service. Yes, there is a desktop application (and just one really crappy one at that), but it's clearly designed to revolve first and foremost around your phone and be virtually impossible to use without one. As someone who hates writing on a 3-inch screen, this is a also non-starter for me.
I understand the arguments about perfectionism, but this is too much. I'll stick with XMPP, Matrix and IRC, thanks.
It's meant to replace people's text messaging apps with .i imal barriers to entry. People's existing SMS/MMS contacts aren't stored by user account names, but by phone number.
When I added Signal to my device, I was able to open up my existing contacts and go.
My understanding from what you're writing (and from this article) is that the phone number is really the account number. That's all well and fine, but then they force you to verify that the number is yours (or at the very least, one that you have access to because you need to receive a confirmation over SMS), so you can't use something more private. And sure, it makes it a little harder to find your new contact, but I don't think it's really that big of a deal - just exchange your other "account number" via some other channel.
Besides, don't think for a second that when this identifying information inevitably falls into the wrong hands that it will benefit you in any way. "What are you hiding, citizen?" and all that bullshit.
The part of it that bothers me is the sense of entitlement that these companies exhibit. The "Give us your phone number or fuck off" sentiment is something I just refuse to accept. If Google forces us to do the same and we refuse, what makes Signal think that we'll do it for them when they're so much smaller by comparison? Especially when you're trying to claim you're more secure and private to people that much more tech savvy than average, this just comes off as not understanding your audience very well. I'm sure I'm not the only one that is holding out against using Signal because of this.
The last thing we need is more barriers to entry. People have hundreds of SMS /MMS contacts they'vebuilt up over decades. You can't expect people to say "fuck all that" and start over from scratch.
And you also WANT verification unless you want some bot setting up an account with my phone number so they can scam people pretending to be me.
It really sounds like your issue with Signal is it's not the correct service for your use. It's like declaring a wrench bad because it's not good at driving nails.
They used to allow their client to be used to send unsecured SMS. Then they stopped. Whatever they thought they were doing, they killed the simplest path to onboarding laypeople they had. I kinda gave up on signal after that.
No ones pays for SMS.
Exactly. No one pays for it because it's free
Not in most places.
It's free in the US, so there's ~360 million potential users they decided to make things harder for
That's why Signal's spreading and your not.
Where is matrix?
PeerTube appears to be completely devoid of content
why signal?
Because atm is the most adopted alternative but isn't any better then SimpleX.
but it is not federated. that would be matrix
A LinkedIn alternative, anyone?
Mastodon seems to be filling this niche (professional networking and job seeking) at the moment. I'm curious if something more targeted is emerging yet as well.
Good to hear. Just yesterday I decided to remove my LinkedIn account!
But will it have the lunatics and toxic positivity?
Anyone on Loops? I tried signing up a few days ago, but the sign up page wasn't working. Now the landing page says they aren't accepting new users.
It took a day before I got my activation email. There was no indication on the website it was gonna take that long, but I'm guessing it's early enough that it might still require manual approval.
That said it's still very much a ghost town
How is it a ghost town if there is a new video someone posts like every 10 minutes?
Are you kidding me?
I thought it was more than that when I called it a ghost town.
Imagine if in the entirety of Lemmy, in all channels of all instances, there was a total of 6 posts per hour, and none of them were in channels you wanted to subscribe to.
In my case I deleted instagram, instead of whatsapp I'm going to Matrix (I'll see who I get there), I changed Reddit for Lemmy and I'm trying to find an active Peertube instance that allows for account creation, live, and uploading videos
Friendly reminder that peertube can expose your IP address.
I'm not really all that invested in trying out Friendica, because Facebook is basically the exact sort of social network service that I really don't give a darn about. I wanted to check it anyway, but the only tangible information on what Friendica is about is the project/marketing page. I can't browse the instances. If I go to your massive social platform, the last thing I want to see is just a brick wall of a login page. Then I looked at fedidb and... um, those aren't huge user numbers.
So I guess I'll keep posting on the services that seem more sensible to me, like Mastodon, Pixelfed and Lemmy.
Check out Circles
Are any of these actually good?
I mean, aside from Lemmy. I tried Mastadon and no one was actually on it, seems like everyone is jumping to Bluesky.
has anyone tried Friendica? is it devoid of people?
Is there an app for Loops.video?
Edit: Go to https://loops.video/ Make an account, and you should get an email afterwards to download the app from TestFlight or an Android APK.
Not if you want people to actually consider switching instead of feeling overwhelmed and confused.
Signal is better than WA tho.
(momentary confusion as I wonder why I'd want to switch from the X Window System to Mastodon)
Unfortunately, I don't know a single person who uses Friendica, and that is also, unfortunately, self-defeating because there's no way I could convince them to go without more than just me using it.
Apparently it makes a good RSS feed aggregator if nothing else.
And that makes it a Facebook replacement how? Facebook is terrible and the only reason I ever go there is to check in on people I know. I don’t understand Friendica at all. I can get all the social interaction I need from Mastodon, BlueSky and Lemmy if my goal isn’t people I know and just like minded people.
Funny, when Facebook started there was almost no one I knew there either. It was its doom. It crashed and burned before it even got off the ground. Orkut still reigns supreme.
I’ve never heard of Orkut, the only Google social network I ever used was Google+. When I first heard about Facebook I couldn’t even sign up because my college wasn’t a supported .edu…lol and I guess the Facebook format/design isn’t inherently bad, just the algorithm is horrendous. There are more adds and post from suggested groups than people and groups I follow on my feed. Then the post from Threads a social network I don’t even use forced on me and adds in the notifications. It’s just a garbage experience and way of going about things. Although it’s still hard to see the point of an alternative that the people I know IRL aren’t on when I have Mastodon, BlueSky and Lemmy for like minded people.
The point is that you can invite the people in your life to try it out. Just like Facebook in the early days. Except it doesn’t have the hostile UX of Facebook.
Good point, thats the correct way to look at it.
This should promote matrix, not signal
Try Matrix or XMPP instead of signal
I miss Jabber so much. There was a brief time where my one XMPP client and an easy to install server could let me chat with everyone I knew, whether they were on ICQ, Y!, gchat, MSN, IRC, or AIM. We fucking HAD interoperability.
Loops really seems like it sucks. You can't see how long any video is, there's no way to thumb down really bad videos, and about 80% of all the videos seem like "really bad videos". I never even used tik tok, but im sure it wasn't content similar or it never would have gotten popular.
loops is still very early in development. people need to tamper their expectations.
Loops definitely needs more features but it's early. I've enjoyed it.
It’s for short form videos, it’s mimicking its competitors UX right now (namely YouTube shorts, Instagram reels and TikTok). Neither has thumb down or show you how long a video is.
As for content… the users generate content, not the software. So… how many good videos have you uploaded?
I’ve been on Signal for a while now. Have a bunch of groups but iMessage works with everyone.
It’s been a year and a half here on Lemmy. I still spend a lot of time on Reddit, but won’t comment there anymore.
I don’t WANT a Twitter replacement as it’s really only for celebs and idgaf.
I actually see enough value to pay for YT premium (kids complain incessantly about ads).
Friendica doesn’t seem to have an iOS app, and there’s a critical mass issue with wanting to connect with people that I know in real life.
I’m trying to get my Pixelfed feed to be with checking, and trying to be a regular poster, but it’s still REALLY sparse, and none of these offer the endless meme-video-clip scroll that my wife will have to have before switching away from Insta.
Great graphic! The only things I use on this list are reddit and youtube. Trying peertube now. I'm confused about whatsapp and facebook messenger - don't people just use the texting app that comes with their phone?
Nice to see the rear of them, was tough making the call to disconnect from a bunch of people, but I've told them where to find me. Hopefully it snowballs!
Ok, downloaded peertube (because to hell with Google and YouTube) looked around... Um, is there not too much to look at right now? Are the people I normally watch on YouTube unable to be seen on peertube? Don't get me wrong, all about decentralized everything but if the people I like aren't there I'm feeling a bit up a creek.
Or, more likely, am I missing something? Forgive me, please, I am rather new to this concept and how to work the federations and such.
It's not an alternate way to view Youtube, it's a totally separate service. You're not missing anything, if no one's using it to post content, then there's no content. Youtube is a tough one to compete with because the infrastructure needed to host that much data and distribute it is insane. Peertube is super niche and not many know about it, but I do wonder how fast scaling would become a problem if it suddenly got an influx of new users.
Apart from that, it has to compete against the content monopoly Youtube has on the video platform industry.
Basically this. There are some creators that either switched or publish on both platforms, mainly from the Linux sphere (and, unfortunately, also some crackpots and/or scammers who got kicked from other platforms), but overall, it doesn't have a lot of content, especially content that's on a "professional" level.
The app is not really that great yet. I suggest to check this page out for content creators on PeerTube: https://peertube.wtf/home and also this list: https://lemmy.wtf/post/15810205
If you are also looking for a PeerTube server to register on, I suggest you look here: https://lemmy.wtf/post/15816115
Is it the band The Contradictions?
Haha awesome. Thanks for sharing your videos 😁
There will definitely be few content creators who post to PeerTube, if they are dependent on ad revenue. Those creators that are not, have a much easier time posting to PeerTube, because they essentially expand their reach.
This is such a beautiful guide!
Woo! Made one of first steps of switching today!
Anyone know if loops has a good app out, or if there's one in the works thats coming out soon?
The app is really bare bones. It's also not federated (yet, but use a product for what it is right now, not what it promises to be).
Has potential but also dansup keeps running head-first into controversial takes.
My favourite Dansup line is " It's coming this weekend" not sure when this weekend is supposed to come around tho.
From what I've seen on the loops discord he's about to open source the app and self hosted backend real soon, he's been reaching out for people to set up and test out the server code.
Same with federation, that's not far away, I think he wants to test how the different instances connect to each other first before the wider federation.
He's finally starting to look for coders to help him with the backend and app tho, so that's a good start.
And I really do appreciate that. He's doing some good stuff and really hope pixelfed and loops (and sup) continue on the momentum that they've got and gain a substantial enough Userbase that they're really enjoyable to use. Just wanted to add the extra context because I think that's relevant too!
He just really needs to let people help him more, he makes good stuff but it's kinda obvious it's getting a bit much for him sometimes, which is how we ended up with the stuff in your link lol.
A few times I've jumped in to the pixelfed discord before he split loops into its own one and he'd be in some crazy long rant, then you'd see him delete all his messages, dude needs a break or to delegate some of his work to the people who keep asking to help.
Good dude tho, just needs a rest I think, the tik tok thing kinda put some pressure on him to get it going quicker I think.
Oh, i see. Still interesting, thanks for the info
The app worked for me when I first downloaded it but hasn't since
Fediverse is awesome!!
Friendica seems like a new thing? No apps for that yet either
Here’s a link you can use to share this post with your friends. The default share link makes you have to click to see the picture and many users will be confused and not click it.
https://photon.lemmy.world/post/lemmy.world/24984716
thanks for the pic, it's good to share with friends who are curious!
I got the PeerTube android app. It's very bare bones. As a first foray into peertube I'm not sure it's the way to go. I think I've set myself up for failure.
Anycase, I'll dedicate some time to try find some pocket of content I like tomorrow. Getting away from YouTube sure would be nice.
May I recommend NewPipe on android? It's a proxy for YouTube/Bandcamp/Plus a bunch of other stuff including Peertube. As a creator, Peertube is nice, but yea, using it as a full time video watching platform just isn't viable rn unfortunately.
NewPipe is awful for Peertube. You have to add AND SEARCH every single instance manually. It's only useful if there is a creator on a specific instance that you specifically want to watch.
I already done my part. I only keep WhatsApp for professional reasons (and barely use it) but the rest is already done. 😁
Facebook Marketplace - > Craigslist
No, that's anti-libre software.
An change your email to protonmail or tutamail. Starve those gmails, outlooks, iCloud’s and etc
isn't that just every day?
Thank you, this covers everything I could have thought of!
Wouldn't Matrix be a better alternative to Signal, since it doesn't need a number? Maybe it has a too difficult learning curve to the average user, though
Looks like Loops isn't accepting new users at the moment. Hopefully that'll open up again soon.
Facebook messenger to sup fediverse messages platform
Can anyone send me a link to the android version of loops.video, I can't see it on the play store
Is there an android app for loops.video? I can't find one.
Loops is anti-libre software.
How so?
Loops fails to include a libre software license text file, like GPL, so we do not control it, very dangerous.
Fails to or refuses to?
Edit: just took at look at their repo and there is indeed no license. Looking at the issues I can't find anyone mentioning it. Maybe an oversight?
source
Edit2: looking at the backend server repo, it does say that it's AGPL but you are correct there is no
license.txt.You need to sign up and wait for a beta invite. Took 15-30 days for me to get in. It's not ready for primetime.
Thanks for the tip, friend!
as i say peertube is currently a alt to twitch as well as youtube
BlueSky is the transfer from X. Mastodon isn't it bro
Snubbing bluesky is a great way to get people to not take you seriously. When you're making a recruitment thing like this you need to remember you're trying to draw in people who don't fully agree with you.
Bluesky isn't federated as much as they pretend to be and say "they're working on it"
It's just another corporate social platform that will fall into the same thing
Psst, OP included Signal in this post which isn't federated at all, so the argument of Bluesky not being "federated as much as they pretend to" is a bit irrelevant.
Ye no shit but I replied to a comment not the post. There's already 5 comments saying that
Things I've learned: the people in this community hate bluesky on principle, their principles are insular and toxic, and they can't read.
This is why people aren't going to mastadon more than Bluesky; because y'all're insufferable. I made the comment in context of the post, so why would you ignore it?
Okay my bad let me make another comment saying
"Signal isn't federated"
There happy?
A little, yeah, oddly enough.
They use a different protocol from the "fediverse".
The fact that you or anyone thinks that matters is part of the problem. Not every federated site needs to be federated with every other federated site. That's half the point of federation.
The post says "fediverse" which by its very name implies they are all interconnected.
Or just go to rednote instead
Mastodon ❌
Bluesky ✅