"Gatekeeping" is when you don't think "Dragonfucker" is a gender
And apparently, also when you think that 'They' is a perfectly serviceable gender-neutral singular pronoun, but are willing to use other pronouns if asked to.
EDIT: Other removable offenses on Blahaj now include questioning mod/admin decisions and quoting the modlog as a reason why you're leaving.
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Dragon is a purity test troll:
By using absurd conversational standards backed by the reasoning of "nontraditional identification / self", they troll both you, and mods into playing the purity "jump how high" game. If the mods flinch, and tell them to tone it down, the community will eat them alive. If they call you out, the mod has to pull the trigger.
I'm not saying the mods are free from blame, but they are so high on their own supply that banning you is the only option.
Non binary folks deserve respect. Non traditional pronouns are worth respect. The way dragon uses them is a problem because they are inconsistent with any logic... They use them semantically wrong
This, TBH. It's just speaking in third person. You'd think if it's not trolling, at least you'd know what a pronoun is, from a grammatical standpoint.
I don't think "nontraditional" quite covers it. He, she, they is enough to cover the whole spectrum and anything beyond that is a blatant call for attention that should be discouraged at this point.
There is room to call for more pronouns, but individual and unique monikers are not that. Japan has a range of pronouns that are more useful (or at least more interesting) than what English has, and some languages lack even English's anemic selection (like, French doesn't have an official neutral pronoun apparently).
There's a comment that I read recently that points out how "Anon" (among other words) is technically a pronoun.
I find it interesting, and I thought you might as well.
It's an interesting point, but in my view, Anon is a pseudonym rather than a pronoun, as it's used in place of their actual name.
I'd argue that a bespoke pronoun (one that a specific person came up with specifically so they can be referred to by it) is less of a pronoun than "Anon" is, which can apply to anyone.
In fact, I struggle to think of definitions for "pronoun" and "pseudonym" such that "Anon" is a proper pseudonym and a bespoke pronoun is a pronoun.
Edit: I have this person tagged as
People who want to have a discussion about neopronouns are absolutely welcome to, and while I find them aesthetically displeasing and unneeded, it's no more inherently invalid than any other development of language.
I couldn't have worded this any better
I think that account is a social experiment designed to see how fucking bizarre of a line of bullshit can they force down other people's throats
hmm interesting
Anon is at it again?
AlwaysHasBeen.jpg
Yeah, they've kinda lost the point.
Don't know that it's power tripping because it's a matter of whether or not you believe that neopronouns are or are not part of trans rights and trans issues. If you do, then they're maintaining their space as a place for trans and trans adjacent folks to not have to deal with the bullshit of constantly defending and fighting for every single thing.
So I get it. Once you believe that, and you're maintaining a space for trans people, you absolutely have to draw that line.
I don't agree with it, but that's not the point. It doesn't matter if I agree or not. It only matters that blahaj is a trans space first and above anything else, and they do buy into neopronouns.
They've also bought into protecting a couple of trolls because of that, but that's the down side.
But, yeah, it's a fucking mess when you can't even use a broadly accepted neutral term as the default until you have a specific one. Which, being real, keeping track of random online user names and their choice of pronouns just isn't worth it. Why the fuck should anyone bother?
Irl? Absolutely. You've got faces to connect things to. But online, with people that are essentially acquaintances at best, how the fuck are you going to remember that doggyboy19 is the one that uses xexu, but puppyboy18 uses xenu? My dyslexic ass already has enough trouble keeping track of the user names that don't have partterns that match established words. Neopronouns amount to a random string of lines and circles to me, there's no fucking pattern to memorize at all, there's nothing I can use to keep track of them.
Which is going off the topic of your post here, but it's one of the reasons "they" is a shit ton better. You don't have dyslexics, people with English as a second or third language trying to have a nice conversation and being treated like an asshole because they can't follow the randomly chosen garbles used by some of the more absurd neopronoun folks.
English is my second language, i still kinda understand neopronouns.
Didn't say they can't be understood.
Just going to drop this here, it seems relevant.
I think there are some people here who have become kung fu masters at the art of straddling the line of acceptable behavior, so that they can remain on the network making everyone’s life unpleasant and bringing nothing of value, while still having a passably plausible claim that they “have a right to be here.” It carries the added bonus of creating division between different factions because some people stick up for them. They’ve often figured out that agglomerating onto tribal hot-buttons like veganism or trans rights is a great way to get knee-jerk support from other members, or at least hesitation to be too quick to ban them, so they can continue to overstay their welcome.
Dragonfucker is definitely a troll that walks the line. He should not be handled with kids gloves, he knows exactly what he's doing.
I've said before that dragonfucker is likely an alt of DroneRights just trying a slightly different tactic, I stand by this assessment due to the extensive behavior patterns exhibited by this individual. Including the fact that after I responded to their post on pawb.social accusing me of abuse since I banned their account preemptively, the community ![email protected] was created and started posting evil and disgusting things about me while pinging me on every fediverse account I had, as well as outing and harassing anyone who dared report the community. I was also greeted with many disgusting DMs featuring porn. I was also sent death threats.
::: spoiler Horrible messages and mentions by drag's harassment alt
Context: Original post was asking admins to give out my IP address so drag could hunt me down and kill me. :::
Let us be clear, the reason people say Dragonfucker is a troll is not because of the pronoun thing, that's a not issue and it detracts from the real issue which is the sealioning and abusive behavior they exhibit.
Oh and I'm almost certain this is the same person as dragonfucker because it happened right after the original post, and this account made some fatal slip-ups. No one actually thinks this wasn't dragonfucker, I'd be willing to bet money that it was. I can't think of anyone else who would have a motive to do that to me in that moment.
War of the Dragons right here.
Yup, one side fights with insults and threats, the other with calmness and logic.
I think a new community called [email protected] needs to be created to explore all these mysteries. It's kinda fun
Good idea, maybe you should do it then appoint some moderators.
Drag is banned on 196
The issue is just how "free" speech should be, also sometimes referred to as the Nazi bar effect. By allowing all types of "freedom", others feel not free anymore to speak up, for fear of what will ensue.
Edit: and I thought it was obvious but to make extra clear, it's also called the paradox of intolerance - somehow allowing people unlimited freedom to speak results in less people being willing to do so.
Dragonfucker strikes again. The number of posts I've seen by him or about him in here is... something
Protected and managed to set a precedent to protect anyone who wants to follow their mockery.
Christ. It's like that person who was 'droneself' and insisted on that early during the Reddit-Lemmy exodus.
I also think dronerights (dronegender/swarmgender), grail (goddessgender), and drag (dragonrider /dragonfucker) are the same person. Hexbear has been calling this out for a while now, it's how I even know about these users. There's other users they also think are alts like mindtraveler and pm me fat enbies. Blajah bends over backwards to protect them until they do something so offensive for so long that they are banned and the bit continues in another account. Some of the accounts claim to suffer from NPD. I don't know what to make of it other than I try to ignore them.
Honestly, I don't even find the poster themselves that annoying. As many noted, you can just block them, and I rarely see drag in my circles anyway. It's the reaction from the admins, and some of the users, that turned me away. What a shitshow.
This makes a bunch of sense. I wonder if there's a way to stick post timestamps into a spreadsheet and compare those accounts.
Wild that hexbear is the good guy here. I've never heard a single good thing about them outside of this lol
They're not, it's just they don't really care about their public image, so aren't concerned with any blowback.
![email protected] is pretty good.
Look through the modlogs. Some mods believe the account is an alt of the same troll. If true, we’ve learned nothing and have failed to secure Lemmy from the same basic threat.
I enjoy a good troll. When the entire account is just trolling and I'm fed up with it, I can just block it.
I also do a little troll here and there for teh lulz and I'd hate to get banned for some weird humor like calling the "South China Sea" the "West Philippine Sea".
Yes! This person is a outsized distraction
It be super useful having a shared block list like AdBlockers across all social media. Certainly make things a lot more pleasant.
PieFed is working on building such a thing automatically: https://join.piefed.social/2024/06/22/piefed-features-for-growing-healthy-communities/, although instead of blocking it puts a label next to the username.
Thanks for the heads up I'll have to take a look.
Who, OP?
The well known troll op was originally talking about.
Yeah, I got, I'm guessing perma banned by Ada(?), from there, because I asked to many questions (just one post) about a statement that made no fucking sense to me, on someones post.
Oh! And aggressive disgusting responses back to my questions were way more hateful and vile than anything I've ever posted anywhere, especially directly to another person. Misgendered me, verbal attacks, etc. Went to report that shit, couldn't because of ban. Didn't see those folks banned or their comments removed though. Guess hate speech and violence is ok to them, if your not trans enough for their elite dragon-fucking club.
I'm on the spectrum. I get upset when I can't make sense of shit and DO indeed ask a lot of questions that seem dumb or rude to others. My brain is trying to figure out the rules and meanings of this new idea.... get a grasp of the boundaries.
Thought Blahaj would be a safe place to hang around for an oddball like me, all the inclusitivity talk n shit. Big mistake! Honestly thought about leaving lemmy, think I had more response to that than anything else I've said on here, and it was truly awful to read. Made me question myself and feel really really shitty for not understanding then getting attacked because my questions are to snarky(?), the reason I usually escape TOO here, and rarely respond or post even then. Then my adult brain kicked in and I realize they are a bunch of idiots who think a dragon is real and providing sage advice, and I'll just block that shit. Miss some of those memes though.
Some of the most performatively inclusive communities are the most hateful in substance. It’s like US Christians. Because they have a badge of good-person-ness, it’s perfectly okay for them to do whatever to you.
For additional context, the removed comment by ![email protected] that was removed by Ada was:
Yep! That was it! Responding to something about having to "earn being an ally" ... I still am not sure wtf they mean, I have to commit deeds before I am friend instead of foe? If I'm an egg, or in the closet, I have to out myself before I can have or be supportive? I'm still am not sure. Chalking it up to I'm too old and they're to cliq-ey, or, they are just a bunch of assholes. Leaning latter now that I see that those who ask just one question get banned too.
I know through text it's easy to come off sounding angrier or meaner than intended but I don't see anything perma ban worthy in my response. Wanting to block me for that, sure... temp ban to cool off, of course. I could absolutely be dick not worth engaging with. Peruse my short history... see that even if I am, I am not going around trolling people or being abusive. I'm just confused idiot with a sailor's mouth.
I can see why Ada removed it, but a permaban doesn't seem necessary in my opinion. I've changed it to a tempban you should be able to comment again next year ^(3^ ^days^ ^from^ ^now)^.
I can't. Seems like a dumbass thing to ban someone for.
yeah those all seem like really good faith questions
/s in case it isn’t fucking obvious
So after accommodating for and accepting people who use neo-pronouns, you won't attempt to accommodate and accept people who are on the spectrum?
Thanks for looking into it! That seems like an acceptable limit. Still not sure if I will engage over there anymore after that. It seems quite chaotic and rather unnaccepting of any discussion of ideas. I will at least be able to give an upvote to meme posters who are funny and hope to encourage them to keep it up!
I saw this thread very early, didn’t comment though.
Fact is, language doesn’t work by fiat. We already have a genderless pronoun, and it’s the singular they. This has been used at least as far back as Shakespeare.
Thats what they want you to believe! every last one of them!
Let's not go to blahaj, tis a silly place.
Camelot is looking better every minute compared to them.
We really need to stop complaining about the pronouns shit, the real problem with dragonfucker isn't with the preferred pronouns, it's the fact that dragonfucker is known to harass individuals who call them out on their trolling or sealioning or disagree with them in any way they can't spin as aggressive or hateful.
I was harassed by an alt of this person because I called them out for their behavior when they decided to make a public attack post on me (now deleted) because I preemptively banned their user account and "spouse" account from communities I moderated for trolling, sealioning, and bad faith arguments.
I clarified that politely and reasonably and also properly contacted pawb.social's admins (since the mentions in their comment weren't done properly) and the following response was to create @[email protected] and create ![email protected] and start spamming it with abusive content attempting to defame, humiliate, intimidate, or even just scare me. That account also sent me porn in my DMs and made rude insults towards me. I was also told to kill myself and also sent death threats, including an invitation for admins to give out my IP address so I could be hunted down and tortured.
I'm almost certain that dragonfucker is the one who did this since it happened immediately after the post which was made on ![email protected] complaining about the bans, and also there were many slip-ups by that account which indicated it was an alt belonging to dragonfucker. Unfortunately beyond that dragonfucker likely did a good job at covering their tracks, or Lemmy just sucks at identifying people, probably both, but I'm confident enough that I'd be willing to bet real money it was dragonfucker, the circumstances are way too suspicious.
Edit:
Here are some of the messages and comment mentions from the alt account mentioned in the post, fair warning, they're not pleasant. Pornographic imagery has been censored.
::: spoiler CW: Abusive content, threats, suicide encouragement, harassment
A lot of contextual information for these isn't here, to get it the admins of pawb.social and discuss.online would need to be contacted as the content and user accounts associated have been banned. :::
Jesus Christ yeah that's a lot worse than whatever OP is whining about
Yeah it's way worse, the pronoun thing that people are whining about isn't even an actual issue. This type of extreme aggression absolutely is. And even though these offenses were committed on an alt and can't exactly be concretely proven, dragonfucker has committed other offenses on the [email protected] main account, like encouraging trans people to commit murder-suicide and harassment of user and moderator @[email protected] (something I watched happen in front of me). Dragonfucker is a bad person and it's really upsetting and concerning that most people don't understand why, instead just complaining about neopronouns.
I've seen pawb around enough to recognize the name. Detached from reality or trolling. IDK. I'm totally guilty of rapping the glass.
Doesn't bother me. If it did, I'd block them. I actually found the whole thing a rather entertaining spectacle of flavor. I'm a middle age cis white guy. If you want to be called tuba, or tata, or whatever, I don't care. If you use a foreign language like Chinese or Arabic I dislike my own ignorance and inability to understand, but I still respect the person's decision.
Ultimately language rules are only a loose correlation based on use and culture. Rules and norms do not create language or cultures, people do. I only see people resisting the patently unfamiliar. "Dragonfucker" or any other pronoun is no different to me than a nickname. If something so simple is able to make just one person feel a little better about their life for a few moments, I'm happy to oblige. The Hippocratic aphorism "first do no harm" does not appear violated in my opinion. If annoyed, block them.
Yeah I will use preferred pronouns for people and users I respect when referring to them. It, xim, drag, doesn't matter.
My contentious take is that using "they/them" in place of the preferred pronoun is not misgendering. I will use it to refer to people identifying as women, men, non-binary, or anything else, it should be neutral. I try to be inclusive as a best effort, and for all intents and purposes treat them as my equal. However, I'm not on a "nickname" basis with everyone and will just block if their asks become not worth my time.
I'll disagree on that, but it's complicated. I'm a trans woman that's semi passing. When I'm dressed even remotely androgynous or if I haven't told a person irl that my pronouns are she/her, or even if I think they may have forgotten then I don't consider it misgendering. But sometimes people are clearly refusing to address me with feminine pronouns, despite me having told them several times, presenting myself femininely, and them correctly gendering the cis and cis passing women near me.
I see using they/them as choosing not to engage with gender at all, so I cannot fathom a circumstance in which it would be misgendering to use such pronouns. If the argument against is that someone in refusing to address one by their preferred gender, I can see some merit in that position, but ultimately I believe one cannot force another to engage with them in terms of gender.
Now, if one were to intentionally use masculine pronouns to refer to someone who wishes to be addressed in feminine or nonbinary terms, of course that meets the definition of active misgendering. But I believe anyone has the right to simply refuse to interact with another with regards to gender by using common, nongendered pronouns respectfully.
It's a form of refusing to accept my gender as I say it. You're welcome to it, I won't seek to have you arrested for it or anything but if you call all cis people by their gender and all trans people by the neutral I will choose to not interact with you as possible because you aren't acknowledging my gender
There is some nuance to it, when someone is obviously trying to avoid addressing you in the same way you make the effort to address someone else, that is a sign of lesser respect.
Otherwise I hold the same view as lemonmelon described.
Pretty much agreed with you here
Fuck them.
I think essentially, we call people what they want to be called out of respect. Even if it seems ridiculous.
Also “drag” as a pronoun confuses me I just think of drag shows. Ironic?
I think the only neo pronoun I know is xe/xir, even then I don't know why you would use it above they/them
Some people don't care for 'they/them' as singular neutral because they're used to it as plural.
Some people want a pronoun(s) specifically for NB identities, rather than a purely neutral pronoun.
These are both valid, if contentious, points.
I don't know about that first one, actually. Lots of people are used to objectively wrong or bad things, doesn't mean those things are somehow right or good.
We define language by its usage, and there is definitely a significant subset of native English speakers who regard the usage of singular they as wrong.
I mean, they're WRONG, but I can only say so from the perspective of a fellow speaker according to my own thoughts and preferences; language doesn't have an objective arbiter and I acknowledge that it is both widespread and not some inherently absurd notion.
There are a few others. Many are somewhat historical from before the singular they was agreed as default
Gatekeeping whether dragonfucker is a gender is a weird hill to die for. Perhaps equally odd is permabanning for it.
Not featured is the key piece of information. Blahaj is specifically a trans safe space. Pronouns are kind of a big deal in that community. Telling them they aren't really LGBTQ unless you approve of their pronouns is not going to go over well.
I kinda get it, though. It's not easy to draw a line and say this is valid and that is not because you dislike the person or the person is a troll or whatnot, and I'm not specifically talking about drag. Like it doesn't make it ok to call people racial epithets if they're a criminal. So how do you tell which pronouns are valid and which aren't? The conclusion over there is you don't. And I would be really uncomfortable going into a minority space and telling people they're being gay in the wrong way or telling somebody they're reacting to racism in the wrong way or they're not passing or bisexuals aren't valid or whatever else. I get that it may feel heavy handed, but this is the kind of discussion that happens over and over in bad faith. So how do you tell who's having a conversation in good faith or bad faith? Once again, the conclusion seems to be one doesn't and to err on the side of safety for the users of that instance. Bad money drives out good and that's not necessarily your fault, but the coin is worth less regardless of if it's shaved or not.
It’s impossible. That’s part of the issue. Whatever boundary you want to draw, there are going to be difficult areas at the borderline or in the extreme cases.
For me, it’s transparently obvious that the dragon person is either taking the piss or suffering from mental illness. Someone else might look at the same situation and say that I’m being ignorant and hateful if I think that. Sure, they can think that.
The thing that makes it hard is that we have to be able to talk about it. Both of those opinions. If I ban the person who thinks I am wrong, they can’t stick up for drag. Bad stuff. If they ban me for saying my feelings on it, saying that they have a right to determine that those feelings are not acceptable to be spoken, then to me, that makes the whole operation and network into a stupid and pointless endeavor.
Part of the whole point of tolerance and open society is that you learn to rock and roll with the people you don’t agree with. I don’t think there’s anybody who will survive for long on the main instances who will be openly racist, transphobic, or anything like that. If you start looking for the most minor of transgressions or differences of opinion, and then shutting out that person because now they’re “bad” and can’t even be spoken to, I think you’re actually interfering quite a lot with your own acceptance in the wider society.
Not everyone is going to think like you. It’s okay. Back in college, I knew some communists who were widely accepted, even by conservatives and “normie” society, because they were firmly in the mode of “this is my stuff, and I’ll tell you about it, but I have 0 expectation that it needs to be your stuff, too.” The ones who had major issues were the ones who had elaborate restrictions on how people needed to see things, how they were allowed to be spoken to, things like that. They wound up isolated into their own pretty small social circle. They didn’t wind up building the wider enlightenment in society that I am guessing they were wanting to do by making the restrictions.
I can see special situations where you really just want your own space safe from people coming in and laughing at you or whatever. I get that. But most of the time, I think setting this super-restrictive model of how everyone needs to talk to you and how they need to look at things in order not to be “bad,” does more harm than good and builds a lot more insincere “acceptance,” than it does genuine understanding about what’s going on with you and your people.
Thanks for taking the time to respond. I get what you're saying. I just lean more towards that the space doesn't have to be for fostering acceptance or understanding by outsiders, regardless of outcome. The best example my morning brain can come up with is: swingers generally don't get together with the purpose of interacting with the non-swinger public (unless they're exhibitionists with a poor grasp of consent) or improving their image; they get together to fuck. The metaphor breaks down in that lemmy is a bit more public, but one can still get kicked out of Hedo for not following the rules even if it's upsetting or gives you a bad experience with the scene. It would be a pretty awful place for swingers if nobody enforced rules that made it a safe place to be naked etc. even for "ugly" people, even if that becomes the image generally. Ok, this metaphor is getting worse and worse, but hopefully it's good enough to get us to shore.
There is such a thing as toxic positivity - when being permissible itself creates an environment for bad faith actors to dominate discussion. I am generally more hesitant to tell someone their experience of racism is wrong, but at the same time, that doesn't mean that getting a sunburn because they have pale skin is racism. All discussions require boundaries, even if just implicit ones; discussions without boundaries descend into incoherence. It's been declared here that questioning the boundaries of this discussion at all is no longer welcome in Blahaj. And that's... very unfortunate.
When it was just "We're going to be enforcing the standard rules on pronouns and gender on dragonfucker as a gender", it was like "Okay, fine, I'm sad, I'm going to sadpost and leave, but this is well within their rights and I understand what they're trying to do." Removing comments for any questioning of the decision? Bit more irritating.
btw, meant to mention this originally, but I adore your use of economic metaphor
I mean, if I were somebody who wanted to make the resistance against the nazis weak, this is exactly the kind of bullshit I might think to do. I'm not saying that's why this is going on. Just that there's no reason to rule it out.
I think it's also pretty relevant that dragonfucker has multiple times said that if you're feeling suicidal, then you should instead get a gun and start shooting Trump supporters.
https://lemmy.nz/modlog?page=1&actionType=All&userId=12587481
I disagree with them about "dragon fucker" being a gender (I think people have started using "gender" as a synonym for any aspect of identity, and I find that annoying). I think they're making a correct utility assessment.
Can you clarify what you mean by that, please?
Edit: I'm going to assume that it probably means what I think it means. I reported the comment for advocacy of murder/suicide.
I don't think that it's good to kill oneself, and I think doing neither thing is better than doing both. Sorry, the comment was made when I was falling asleep and poorly phrased. I was considering that depression causes one to not wish to do anything and so giving someone a difficult goal is a good way to avert it long enough for them to get the help they need.
In my experience, most people who are suicidal want, more than anything else, just a way out. They have desperation for some way to release what they’re feeling and not have to go through it anymore. Painting a picture of one, and telling them that they can make it all count for something and then it’ll all be over, is one of the darkest and most fucked-up things I’ve ever seen on the internet in all my time here. So no, I don’t agree with your analysis.
As a side note, I also don’t see any connection at all between “correct utility assessment” and what you just said.
Okay. Actions have positive utility or negative utility based on the results. Telling someone to do something bad is bad if they actually do the bad thing. If by telling them to do the bad thing you just stop them from doing a different bad thing, then the action of telling them to do the bad thing can have positive utility even if the proposed action has negative utility.
Getting banned on blahaj or hexbear is a good sign that you're still sane tbh.
I legitimately thought better of Blahaj and Ada than this, and it's very disappointing to see otherwise.
Blahaj is terrible, as every hardcore lgbtq+ community. They try to advocate for queer acceptance, but their radical behavior and batshit attitude are actually making them the biggest enemies of queer acceptance. They are helping rightoids sooo much.
By whom?
It’s the sort of queer community that ejects other queers for not being queer enough.
Never would I read this.
A whole thread talking about @[email protected] brodie must be geekin reading all this😂
I agree with the mods on this one. You don't go into people's spaces and tell them they're living wrong unless they're actively hurting other people. And at the end of the day, using a different word as a pronoun isn't going to hurt you. Heck if you have an app you can just tag them with it.
Using a different word as a pronoun does no harm at all. Requiring that other people gender you properly is perfectly reasonable. Demanding that other people go along with calling you a dragon, and whining about it in ways that cause needless drama if they don’t, does do harm.
This whole issue has absolutely nothing to do with trans rights. The right to tell someone who you think is being ridiculous, that they’re being ridiculous, is an important right on an open communications network. Infringe on that right, and your network suddenly isn’t a good place to be anymore, because people will have their conversations non-consensually interfered with by patently ridiculous stuff which they won’t be permitted to say anything back to. On a network where quite literally the only available currency is words, that is a significant loss.
The conversations will be fine. I've had quite a few with drag and nothing has ever interrupted us. You're literally making up reasons to be outraged by someone's identity.
its not the pronouns. its the excuse to behave in a manner which is tyrannical and using made up pronouns to shield you from any criticism.
these places get to a point where inclusivity becomes weaponized. "if you're not immediately accepting of my specific demands, you're transphobic. don't dare ask questions. Cis scum only does that."
there's a fairly obvious line between the two. and this seems pretty apparently an attempt to use othergender stuff in a way to control others.
That's not it. All pronouns are made up. There are people out there right now using Xe/Xim and they're accepted. If you change languages the words change there too. Identity is consistently a big deal in the trans space, as seen by dead naming and conservative jokes about pronouns.
So we don't get to make that decision anymore and honestly it's the easiest thing in the world. They aren't controlling me by telling me to use their pronouns, for example I can still tell them they're wrong on an issue, I can still walk away, I can still take an ad out telling the world that person has a bad take, I can still ignore them or let them live rent free in my head. Saying pronouns control other people is ridiculous. The only thing they control is the identity of the person using them.
read what I said again. its not the pronouns. its using them as a way to weaponize what is and isn't acceptable.
"This person dared to ask a question about how I identify myself, they're a terf for even asking!"
"This person said Fae creatures aren't real! i am angry at them, BAN!"
if you accept these two above examples as good and logical, then we will never agree. and frankly, defending those who behave in such a manner makes a larger divide between those that are trans or othergender and those that aren't.
people are allowed to ask questions and try and clarify what they don't understand. and having to remember specific pronouns for every individual on an internet forum is a completely unacceptable thing to ask.
When said in regards to not wanting to use a person’s preferred pronouns, yes that is a bad-faith argument. And, while I don’t agree with everything Ada does (or has done here), she is dedicated to making a safe space for her users with one of the rules being that you are to respect pronouns no matter what.
Also, I’m feeling more and more like Drag is dronerights, who was definitely a troll, but that will not make me use the wrong pronouns for Drag, and not necessarily for Drag’s sake but for the sake of anyone who feels better using neopronouns. In a discussion about this post on Hexbear, a user talked about how worried hy was asking for them to be included on the list. Even if Drag is a troll, there are people out there who are not and want these things.
asking to be referred to by pronouns is a reasonable request. asking people to refer to you by pronouns of fictional creatures is also reasonable, but when refused does not make the one who refused a bad person.
humans exist. she/he/they absolutely exists. dragons do not exist. nor do fae creatures.
its not unreasonable to refuse to give in to someone's delusion.
if you wish to refer to them by the pronouns they made up, that's fine. but its not reasonable to ask everyone to conform to that delusion.
and quite frankly, I see it as quite harmful to trans individuals. as it groups transgender individuals with those who are othergender and simply gives more excuses to say that real transgender people aren't legitimate.
That's not even remotely what happened. They refused to use the pronouns after being told what they were. Which is something a Terf would do, since you brought the term up.
its not reasonable to assume everyone will just do what you want because you want it. those kinds of pronouns are not ones based in reality.
that doesnt make them terfs. it just means they disagree with you. disagreeing with someone is not a capital offense.
Walks like a terf, talks like a terf... Is threatened by other people's self description like a terf. Oh no, watch out the word is going to bite you!
in one ear and out the other, I see. best of luck.
Yeah. The benefit of the decentralized fediverse is that individual smaller communities can enforce standards like this that may be unreasonable to enforce on something much larger-scale.
You're allowed to vehemently disagree with my lifestyle choices and think that what I do and say is dumb and stupid. And there are environments where discourse calling me out for what you think is stupid is welcome. But clearly, blahaj is not that space. Most of the internet is a space where those who use neopronouns have to fairly constantly defend their use of them, and blahaj seems to have been created very specifically to be a place where such constant vigilance is unnecessary for their users.
Sorry, Hate me but if peoples are having and not hurting anyone. I wouldn't care. Yeah, Dragonfucker have confusing pronoun and I am not even native english speaker. That's why I avoid talking to Dragonfucker if I accidentally mispronounced then everyone will think I am homophobe?
But "They" is gender nuetral term.
admin makes a post saying they will enforce the rules around banning people who refuse to use neo pronouns, in a meta community for trans people, and every cis loser has to jump in and play the victim when they get banned for breaking the rules in the post was made to say the rules would be enforced. cry harder.
All these posts are from 196, not the meta comm.
I see my mistake but also this wasn't very clear where it was posted originally.
Dragonfucker is a cis loser. She is trolling, and the dumbass mods of Blahaj Zone keep falling for it.
Basically my feelings. I don't take any neopronouns too seriously, but it costs nothing to use them and is one of the fun quirks of the fediverse. I've seen people assert that drag is both a cis man and a cis woman in this thread, so apparently it isn't that obvious that they're trolling
Wild that you've just ascribed she/her pronouns to drag, that's definitely a weird level of transmisogyny.
Dragonfucker is not trans.
I don't know if Drag is serious, but I do know they demonstrate the shallow, insincere progressivism of liberals just by existing.
What are you talking about? How is this even related?
Buy Why Male Models?
D-did, Drag try to fuck you?
I don't think so?
It's wild how many people seem to have ascribed things to this one creature that just don't seem to reflect reality. Like the number of folks saying drag doesn't accept other pronouns, when I've literally seen drag on multiple occasions saying they/them are okay if you can't work out drag's neopronouns. Just that they aren't drag's preferred pronouns.
Shove your blahaj fins up your ass🗣️🙏
Yeah, if we could also convince Track_Shovel to stop posting to 196, that would be great.
They sound familiar. What's their deal?
Nothing special, just that they are the primary poster on 196 and the reason it shows up on All.
i will now attempt to post more on 196 now
🥲
https://youtu.be/Obagb7RQeYo
Please refer to my comment on this related post: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/34327347/15649022
@[email protected] why is this post still open when you locked the other one? Seems strange to me, both are equally contentious and have devolved into mostly a slap-fight. PugJesus has stated he wants to leave Blahaj but is still causing drama here over this whole affair, instead of moving on with his life.
play both sides to win
This is twords everyone, not specifically pug,
I really don't understand how this is so hard for people. If calling someone a hippopotamus makes them happy and doesn't inconvenience me then you bet your ass I'll be saying hippopotamus. Seems insane to all get so worked up over something that has no negative impact other than making you not mindlessly say 'they'. Literally just accept it, or block. Downvoting about it every time you see drag isnt gonna fix anything. That's harassment, and harassment ain't cool.
Never thought that would be controversial on Lemmy.
I just really think people have lost their ability to see that someone else is on the other side of the computer screen. As the bumper sticker that got mega upvoted goes, "trans people existing does literally nothing negative to your life"
You don't even have to respect drags opinions either! You can just treat drag like any other person who has a lot of bad takes (excluding gender). My upvote ratio is literally 36 up 32 down, but I'll still do something as simple as writing 'drag' instead of 'they' to make the person on the other side of my computer screen just a little bit happier.
Happy new years, btw.
Drag is not a pronoun, and it's not going to catch on, no matter how hard you try.
Also, every interaction I've ever seen with Dragon gives me the impression they're deliberately being annoying.
And if the admins begin removing people who say human beings can't be hippopotami?
That, for me, was the reason I left/announced leaving. I don't give a shit about drag, specifically. Drag could be deleted tomorrow and it wouldn't make a difference. Drag could have been IP banned immediately after Ada started removing comments and it wouldn't have made a difference to me.
Once "You can't be a dragon" is considered a sin on par with transphobia, or, by the arguments of some of the Blahaj commenters here, literally the same thing, I'm fucking out. I'll generally humor people with inoffensive oddities, but when it comes down to "Agree or shut up" about it, I'm not eager to stick around.
I can't speak for everyone about this, but referring to someone as (like in the example that you use) a "hippopotamus" is fine. I personally think of myself as a cat, and though I don't personally enjoy actually being referred to as such I can understand other people who would and I can accommodate them. My personal wrinkle with this is far more nuanced.
I'm a gender abolitionist. I regard "gender" as a particular aspect of identity that holds cultural significance. I don't think aspects of identity should be given so much consideration and weight, and I don't think it's useful to refer to something as "gender" when it previously hasn't been, because that makes my goals less achievable. I also don't think there should be gendered or personalized pronouns, period. I use gendered pronouns because that's what society expects of me, but these new ones are not only unnecessary the same way gendered pronouns are but also often aestheticly displeasing. For these reasons and others, I get annoyed by neopronouns, especially bespoke ones. Furthermore, I find the idea of pulling more aspects of identity under the nebulous umbrella of "gender" to be regressive.
Hope that helps you understand.
I like your idea. When I think about it, what's the point of gender?
YDI
The first image in the post body, your comment that got removed, says the complete opposite.
It's not up to you, or anyone else, to label someone's use of pronouns as trolling. If you think they are, block them, and move on. If you have solid proof that they have I'll intent, report them, block them, and move on. I don't know why you're surprised that a trans safe space is removing comments and banning people for vigilante misgendering.
"I'm going to leave Blahaj because I don't acknowledge dragonfucker is a gender" says literally nothing about whether I'd use pronouns, including drag's.
EDIT: Oh, sorry, the post body? That one I'm quoting up to "as gatekeeping", I understand that might not be entirely clear at a glance due to modlogs not preserving formatting.
Yeah you caught it, I meant the one in the post body. I've read your comment before it was removed (and actually upvoted some others in the thread), so I'm aware of the formatting. But the comment you're quoting says very explicitly that they will never use neopronouns and will respect gender identities only if they limit themselves to he/she/they. That's the reason it got removed for gatekeeping, which seems perfectly reasonable to me.
No one is forcing anyone to use specific pronouns. If you don't like how someone wants to be referred to, either refer to them by name, or block them and move on. blahaj.zone is an explicitly queer instance where a sizable percentage of users are trans, and neopronouns are accepted. It's unfortunate if trolls abuse that trust, but imo it's way more harmful if someone started policing acceptable gender identities in a nominal safe space, than if a few trolls slip through. This only got to be such a big drama because some people got very defensive (and rude) about it.
I'll be sad to see you leave blahaj, I really appreciate all the activity and posts you're bringing to lemmy as a whole. But if this is the hill you're willing to die on, I guess blajhai is not for you. I'll see you on [email protected] c:
If it was a legitimate removal, for the sake of the argument, is removing someone quoting the modlog as reason why they're leaving itself also gatekeeping? And the other two comments of mine that were removed for gatekeeping?
Again, my problem isn't in pronoun usage being enforced. It's that additionally, Ada seems to regard any denial that 'dragonfucker' is a gender as gatekeeping, and I'm not eager to stick around for that particular path. Principles rarely benefit from being applied without limitation.
"I'm leaving Blahaj but I'm sad" turned to "I'm leaving Blahaj but I'm sad and mildly irritated" when Ada removed my comments for gatekeeping, to "I'm glad I'm leaving Blahaj" when numerous people showed up here to accuse me of transphobia and a dozen other different things explicitly over the case of doubting whether dragonfucker was a gender.
Glory of the Fediverse, right? See you around!
I think it's disappointing how many people have suddenly jumped to conclusions that you're somehow a transphobe over all of this. It's like they were waiting for an opportunity to jump on somebody and attack them. Drag is so obviously a troll that I find it sad that Blahaj is bending over backwards to defend them and damaging their credibility, and that a community supposedly based on kindness and acceptance is being so vitriolic towards you because of this. I'm sure Drag loves the drama this has all caused.
Me too. I don’t think Pug’s a transphobe, but I also don’t think Pug understands the scale of the harassment trans people face on a daily basis. Like it’s so bad the users would rather just have potential trolls ignored and downvoted than to see well meaning cis people come in and do vigilante justice.
That empathetic disconnect looks like transphobia to some users. I don’t think the users are right, but I understand how they reached that conclusion, especially with Pug’s days-long soapbox about how despotic Ada is.
I see that you, also, are misconceiving what the purpose of Ada’s decision. It’s not about protecting drag, it’s about protecting everyone by not letting people be judge, jury, and executioner in the comments.
YDI.
gatekeeping sure is when you tell someone their gender isn’t real. especially under a post that specifically says “hey don’t tell people their gender isn’t real.”
edit: removing my comments below because the discussion is no longer about respecting trans identities and is just a slapfight. fuck transphobes and get over yourselves on a single tiny user who you should have blocked months ago if you actually had a problem.
Their claimed gender is literally a dragon.
Dragons aren't real.
Dragons.
Aren't.
Real.
This isn't my first experience with people using neopronouns, and I explicitly stated a willingness to use neopronouns.
You're engaging in an online community that's become so insular and self-absorbed that it's become indistinguishable from parody. You're literally defending dragonfucker as a gender, and furthermore saying that questioning any identity is inherently unacceptable.
Get help.
Literally all genders are made up, why are you getting so bent outta shape over a totally reasonable rule just because one person who stands to benefit from it is kinda annoying???
Gravity is just made up too. Doesn't mean I'm going to take someone preaching intelligent falling seriously.
Look, if you want to have your fantasy roleplay where dragonfucker is a gender, that's on you. Like I said in the message I was removed for, I'm no longer participating in Blahaj. You have fun with your faeries and dragons.
You don't get to complain about other people trolling when you are being this deliberately obtuse.
Gravity is in the most literal sense a force of nature. It has had measurable effects since pretty much the dawn of time. Gender is a social construct. The only effects it has on the world around us is that which we as a society allow it to, and in the absence of any people who believe in such a concept it would cease to exist in any meaningful sense.
Nobody is sincerely claiming that dragons, as in the mythological creatures, actually exist in material reality. By adopting dragonfucker/rider as a gender identity, drag is aligning with the concept of them in some kinda nebulous social sense I'm not gonna pretend to understand.
Maybe drag's trolling about it, but to be honest, I really couldn't give a shit about the specifics of Dragon Rider's identity one way or the other because I think drag's an insufferable shit-stirrer. What really pisses me off here though is that you've actually made me care about this because in spending all day bitching about how drag's a shit-stirring troll, you have engaged in precisely the behaviour that can make drag such a… drag.
“Gravity is just made up too.”
I apologize profusely for taking this argument seriously. The internet was a mistake; turn it off and leave it unplugged 😭
Yes, it's made up, just like the entire concept of physics and species are as well. Science is a social construct. That doesn't mean it has no relation to reality.
might as well take a blowtorch to the wires while we’re at it
Gravity is just a made-up word applied to a made-up concept used by human beings to understand the universe around them in terms they find palatable.
Like gender.
Gender labels are social constructs, just like the concept of gravity is a social construct. Gender is an extremely complex phenomenon with biological roots. Trans folk don't just get HRT for funsies.
'Fae' as a cutesy neopronoun I have no problem with. Anyone who identifies as literally one of the fae folk?
Yes, that I do have a problem with.
"Your gender isn't real, because what you're claiming literally isn't real nor possible for any human being to be."
Like, holy fucking shit, should I go and take back every time I criticized the conservative 'joke' denigrating trans folk of "I identify as an attack helicopter hurr" because that's now perfectly valid?
I suppose I've been reading it wrong, I would've sworn that somewhere it was said that they were a dragon and a dragon 'rider'. In either case, the essential problem remains that dragons are not real, and they are asserting that dragons are real as part of their gender identity. Again...
“Your gender isn’t real, because what you’re claiming literally isn’t real nor possible for any human being to be.”
I ask again
It was on their profile. I'm not going to bother to see if it's still there.
Fuck blahaj! All my homies hate blahaj🗣️🔥
Fuck blahaj! All my homies have sex with shark plushies🗣️🔥
i love drag, and i don’t think about drag half as much as all the weird fuckers who get SO worked up about drag all the fucken time
I don't even remember the last time I had an interaction with drag, but when the admins come down on the side of "Dragonfucker IS a gender and questioning that is ban-worthy", I find it a sign to move on.
“moving on” would be not continuing to complain about it, but you do you babe 💖
Despite not being shy in the least about coming here, I didn't come here to kvetch until comments on my final/leaving post in 196, which was not where the discussion originated, were removed for the offenses - as the OP shows - of 'citing the modlog as a reason why you're leaving' and 'I prefer they/them but I will use neopronouns as requested', both of which I felt were sufficiently irritating to warrant bitching about.
god you really fell off. have fun being upset i guess!
e: extending those well-wishes to anyone downvoting this, PLEASE continue to be stupid and belligerent about this! it’s a really easy way to filter y’all out of communities that you would only ever shit-stir anyways! 😊
You sounds like a very unpleasant person to be around.
aww, look at you assuming so much from a few comments!
ignorance makes me annoyed, i don’t associate with ignorant people in person 💖
lowkey tea
lol. There's someone getting banned for standing up to a pedophile and here you are whining about someone having a preferred way to be called.
That might be. You are too, you're just not as good at it. And you're definitely whining.
Is this you not whining?
Yeah, definitely not whining.
This just in: terms have colloquial meanings that dictionaries like Oxford don't always keep up with. It only makes you look kinda dumb to pretend those don't exist :)
What are you referring to?
An entire community was just banned from an instance because its only mod (and member) was posting a bunch of pedo rethoric and banning anyone who disagreed. A post about it was made in this community a little bit earlier than this post and I found the contrast very funny.
The only pedo in this situation is the strawman one you just made the fuck up in your own head.
Don't blame you for being out of the loop.