I've never "debloated" Windows so idk about the top half.
The bottom half is accurate. Debian, Fedora, and Mint are easier to install than Windows 10 or 11. Not that Windows is difficult, it's just a bit clunky and idiosyncratic.
I assume Microsoft doesn't care much about the installer since it's generally only used by OEMs, whereas for Linux distros it's a first impression so it has to be polished.
No excuse though. Try the "install as oem" of Linux Mint. You get an install with temporary oem account, you can update the system, install additional programs, then click "Prepare for shipping to end user" and on next boot you're greeted with a setup screen.
Well, if you want accuracy, then no the meme isn't really that accurate.
On an updated Win11 system the Shift+ F10 command prompt "OOBE\BYPASSNRO" trick still works to setup a new system without Internet (and by extension, without a MS account) so that's like most of the battle right there
The rest is taken care of with your choice of debloat scripts that are out there
Well, I didn't say it should be ranked towards the bottom lol, if we want to make this graph accurate it would be below arch but above "Windows the normal way"
If you install arch with the archinstall script you basically get a setup wizard
And installing a Microsoft-account-free Windows install is only the first step of de-bloating the system. So I'd say debloated Windows in somewhere between Arch and Gentoo
I used AtlasOS on my windows partition. Had to cause for some reason steam streaming was borked and would only black screen. And now I’m too lazy to swap back over to cachyos. Lmao. Waiting to see that bug is fixed.
I had to install Windows 11 on something a few weeks ago so I decided to do it without an account, it was nowhere near as difficult to do it as this sub would lead you to believe. Pressed a key combination to load up the command prompt then typed in a relatively short command. The GUI restarted and that was it.
You don't think that many people build their own Windows PCs? Linux gaming isn't that old in the grand scheme of things, and there's plenty of people who dual boot for various reasons.
I'd almost be willing to bet that there are more people who've installed Windows on their PC than there are people who've installed Linux from a pure numbers standpoint.
PC building is niche, yes, but do you think "almost no one" builds PCs, like OP said? And that's not even including the people who've had to install Windows on a pre-built system for one reason or another.
My point is that OP sounds like a smug Linux user shitting on people who use Windows. Even 5% of Windows users is too big a group of people to be described as "almost no one" simply because of how big the userbase is. That would be like saying, "Almost no one installs Linux" because Linux only makes up a small portion of the worldwide PC userbase.
I build my own systems. And I dont know what y'all are smoking but a typical windows installation has the complexity of opening a jar of pickles. Next next yes and away we go.
Linux on the other hand..
Now, if you want to debloat and install without a ms account then yes. But then... Really.... Who does that? (i mean of the typical windows users
Avoiding MS account and many manual parts of the installation (opting out of shit) is like two clicks in Rufus before installation. Everyone should do it.
That's what I'm saying. Windows installation is idiot-proof. And I'm sure there's enough people who maintain their own systems or at the very least have had to install Windows for one reason or another that to say that "almost no one" who runs Windows installed it themselves is just the "Linux Master Race" talking.
Installing endeavourOS was easier than Windows because of all the ads you need to bypass and the telemetry options on Windows. The partitioning options on endeavourOS were easier too plus if necessary one can use a browser. The only difficulty there was on EndeavourOS which the Windows installer didn't have was picking a wm.
That was the most complicated installer I've seen for a Linux distro beside arch32 which doesn't even come with archinstall.
I once upgraded a girl's parents' computer to System 8 and didn't realize it wasn't supported. Fucked up the BIOS (or whatever Macs used back then) and they had to ship it back to Apple to get fixed. I did not hear from her again.
But I haven't actually installed Mac OS since about Puma. New operating systems just come down in the normal software update. But I still cherish my OS X Beta DVD.
A couple months ago my sister bricked her mac somehow... it wouldn't boot past the stupid white screen with a ? on it.
Had to edit random shit on the built in installer to get it to talk to apple correctly and pull the correct OS image to fix itself. It was a full OS install/recovery.
Easy enough because I understand linux/unix and underneath that's all it is... but mac users are just stupidly lost... And to get to some of those tools, because they're so buried underneath the "MAC experience"... it's a pain in the ass too.
I can't be bothered to remember what version it was... I hate touching macs. I only did that one cause it was my sister.
Easy enough because I understand linux/unix and underneath that’s all it is… but mac users are just stupidly lost… And to get to some of those tools, because they’re so buried underneath the “MAC experience”… it’s a pain in the ass too.
As a Mac user since System 1.0 with over 20 years of experience using Linux for Fortune 500 companies and major government agencies: Most people are stupidly lost, regardless of the OS they're using.
Question mark standardly means it can't find the drive. Used to be hold down the alt key to select boot drive. If nothing comes up still plug into Ethernet in some manner, then boot again with alt, should pull an online os installer that will bring you to the disk utility and such. Can troubleshoot the drive from there and figure out if it needs repairing / formatting / replacing
lol. They only ever pursed anyone for selling Mac clones or hardware for doing it. And the hardware was just a preconfigured usb drive with a motherboard connector on it. I think there were actual Apple devs moonlighting as hackintosh contributors.
A new Linux installation is usually usable and you spend an hour tailoring it to your specific needs. While in a new Windows installation I spend the first hour remembering things that'll start popping up/executing in the background and disabling them just to get it to a usable state.
Just learn how to install windows the way you want it to be just like you learn the best way to install a distro. Debloated windows takes minutes to install and takes so little actual effort if you know what you're doing.
I probably cannot get Windows to be the way I like it. They make every change I want to make a pain, and the ways to circumvent their shenanigans are always changing. Setting up a local account, changing your default browser, stopping onedrive from wasting your time, all of these should be quick and simple changes, but they just wouldn't let you choose for yourself, they have to shove their products and settings down your throat with every new installation, update, and misclick. I spent more than an hour setting up a new installation and I still find new ways Edge can start itself, I cannot imagine the time it would take for me to make this as usable as a simple Linux installation with some changes to the DE.
At some point changing the default browser required setting each file type's default app one by one. Using a local account once was a normal option then it became hidden and required setting up some questions then you had to disconnect from Wi-Fi and now it's not a visible option and you have to get around it with some command. This may take you some clicks when you've already installed Windows before, but it's heading towards simply not being an option, and setting up a usable Linux installation is already much easier today.
Man, people are really liberal with the word "usable" around here. As if a plain windows install is somehow this thing that can't be understood or used. Come on, it makes it hard to take these convos seriously. Millions of people use just plain, out of the box, Windows.
No, see: some of us spend countless hours setting up their NixOS config repo, which is totally worth it because you save half an hour when moving to a new machine
I would argue it takes even longer to get a windows install how I like it. Even using Chris Titus Tech's tool, it probably takes 2 hours for me to install things like winget, steam, librewolf, libreoffice, blender and configure the task bar and lock screen. Not to mention how last time I checked, I could not rebind the windows key to trigger the app overview how I like it.
That's not windows tho, that's setting up your entire fucking digital life to your satisfaction. The meme is about like, going to the task bar and telling Microsoft "no this isnt just a shitty gnome, please use my entire monitor"
For everything else just use winget-ui and install everything you want
I seldom install windows, so I also have to relearn some things during the debloat. At 10 minutes, you are basically speedrunning the windows installation process lol.
And downloading updates is a good thing. Means that the fresh installation isn't vulnerable to something that was fixed between when the USB / DVD was pressed and the time the person installed it.
I'm happy with regular password FDE, i think i'm more likely to encounter hardware failure (and then need to read the drive from another machine) than theft of the drive.
It's a good point though, I'm sure many people do need this feature. Ubuntu is "working on it" but so far i guess it's mostly not working except for VMs
I have a media center that serves over the internet via VPN, I don't want to leave it unencrypted but I also don't want to have to go home and type in a pass every time California has a power outage, which is monthly during the dry fire season and >monthly during the "storm" season. I wouldn't care as much for my personal laptop or anything, but for servers it seems like an absolute must have and..what is Linux for if not servers?
I think the traditional way to do that is via dm-crypt, which you can set up with an ssh server.
You can also use a network-shared file rather than a password for LUKS but it's not as straightforward to set up as a password. If you are doing something like tailscale then it'd be unlocked as long as you are on the VPN
Typing in a password in-person at a data center would be a huge hassle, agreed
But...it's literally what the tpm chip is for. Like there may be other options, but the tpm chip's purpose in life is to do this thing. And it's been doing that for a decade. Seems pretty traditional to me. But Linux folks in some venues treat it like a plague that needs to be eradicated.
What is the very first thing you do after installing the super private and much sekure Linux? You download Steam and give Valve your data. This is bullshit.
Yes, that's my point. You will eventually log into something when using the computer. So while it's weird that MS made it mandatory to sign into Windows 11, who cares.
They can also get your data without an account if they wanted.
On Linux, you can install Steam inside a sandbox for better security. Easy to do with either Flatpak or Bubblejail. This makes it so that Steam does not have full file system access.
Not something most people are gonna do. If you need privacy and security on the level where even Steam worries you, Windows can be made private too. It's not even that hard. You just install a different ISO that allows local accounts and do all the necessary tweaks to harden it.
Flatpak is installed on basically every Linux distribution. Literally all I do to install Steam is go to the Software Center and search "steam" and click install. It takes 2 clicks.
would love to see some actual market research on this. sit down a sample of users, have them install then use some OSs. interview them on their experience. rather than yknow making up data
Biased as fuck lol. Installing windows is not difficult. I did it first time at the age of 8 witn WIndows 98 and their newer installers are made so the general public can do it. And the bloat and spyware? Thats windows dude. Its not meant to be your OS, its meant to spy on your ass at the benefit of being familiar and (relative) easy to use. Anything you do to it post clean install is your own tinkering. Linux distros are great yall, but install difficulty is not a metric I would use to attack windows. Comparing between distros makes sense.
It can be quite difficult for puzzling reasons. I bought my laptop with no OS because it was cheaper to buy a Windows license separately. I downloaded the ISO and put it on a USB drive and ... It wouldn't boot. It took me half a day and I had to follow guides with various black magic which I can't even recall what was about to finally get the thing to boot from USB. After spending over a day on that, I installed Ubuntu and set up dual booting in about 30 minutes.
This doesn't say it's difficult, just says there are others which are less difficult. Even if you accept everything at default, windows installs take much longer.
I'm not sure why you even think this is an attack on windows really. You keep saying windows is for those who want easy to use, so why not include the whole process?
Longer != difficult. Windows installs are easy as fuck and id say its as simple as linux mint.
The debloating is a choice and id say thats the same amount of work as installing stuff in linux because what it comes with is very limited.
Im a linux mint user btw
It's easier than even mint. Because I've installed windows dozens of times and it has always worked out of the box. Always.
Friend gave me their old laptop that was sluggish and asked me to reinstall windows. I proposed Linux and promised them it'd work even better, they reluctantly agreed. I install mint. Sound not coming through headphones. I update everything that's there to update, tried a bunch of shit and waste like an hour before I finally find a thread that suggested manually updating to a newer kernel version. That fixes it.
Now I know something extra for next time but if it were someone less stubborn, they'd have given up and went back to windows. Most people don't know and don't care about debloating, trackers and whatnot.
Tldr; Windows is the easiest OS to install because it works right out of the box. Many Linux distros are even easier to install, but don't always work out of the box.
Exactly. Linux mint was fine on my laptop, but only later i had to upgrade kernel for the amd drivers, but overall its the closest to a spotless experience ive had. But what you said is 1000% correct!
I believe you, but my experience is the opposite. Generally wifi doesnt work ootb on Windows for systems i've set up, and newer games are crashy until you install the latest chipset drivers. The drivers Windows installs seem to be many versions back and have been unstable IME
on Ubuntu or Fedora i've not had a single issue in over a decade. Not one time has a component not worked for me on the first boot. It's been truly flawless. Games work at full performance right away.
My only possible explanation is that we must be working with pretty different hardware
Linux has made leaps and bounds with usability and ease of installation but it's no better than any other modern OS - which is a good thing. Installing Windows from a USB stick is not difficult - the simple path is literally, pick a language, select your wifi, choose who is logging in, click install and go grab a coffee. About the only difficulty if you can call it one is that some installs will ask for a serial number because it's a commercial product.
Also, the number of questions & buttons during installation is one thing but the certainty of a functioning system is another. Linux is better at supporting old hardware, Windows is better at supporting new hardware. Choose accordingly if that matters.
The last time I installed windows 11 (thank God only once) it took me a total of 7 hours divided over 3 days. It was hell, requiring multiple iso downloads, multiple tries to burn a USB with a variety of tools, loads of searching and reading documentation, multiple BIOS settings and a BIOS update, multiple install attempts, searching, downloading and installing drivers, then finally on the winning install it still took like an hour with god knows how many "fuck off and do your job" clicks.
Mind you, this was on the same machine where right before I installed Linux on a separate M2 device
I kind of miss the Win98 install process. I did it so many times.. Tried making a Win98 virtual machine, but it just wasn't the same without all the real floppies. The boot disk, the drivers. The JazzJ Jackrabbit shareware. Good times.
As someone who has tried to install Windows from Linux, and Linux from Windows.... The meme is accurate. Even getting the official Windows ISO on a USB from Linux or MacOS is a multi-hour journey. Want to only install Windows on part of your hard drive? There goes another 15 minutes. Maybe 30 minutes because it wiped your GRUB partition. Honestly, try to do anything but the default options in the Windows install and you'll lose 2 hours.
Installing Linux? I've installed Arch Linux in under 10 minutes. Manjaro is literally flash ISO to USB using any program (Windows, Linux or Mac) and watch an installer spin for 20 minutes. Windows? You'll be spending 20 minutes on your first "update".
I can agree that installing Arch is easier than installing a debloated Windows. But Gentoo? I spent 2 weeks trying to install it, but couldn't get past partitioning the drive.
I think "couldn't get past partitioning the drive" means they managed to partition the drive but couldn't get beyond it ie couldn't do any more after that.
The arch wiki is a good substitute, but the gentoo wiki when it was still around and at its peak was amazing.
But I agree... Gentoo is not quite keeping up with a lot of details. Like experimenting with refind, dracut, efistubs, I felt I was in the dark a lot of the time. I ended up making very few mistakes, because the distro is very good at working for special cases even if all the details are not explained. Still my favourite distro.
A>B is a relative statement that gives no information on the absolute values of either. If I say that Miami's elevation is greater than New Orleans', that doesn't mean that I'm saying Miami's equal to the top of Mount Everest.
I guess it means that no one here knows what Windows Debloated is and didn't read far down enough to see regular windows marked as very easy to install.
Boot off usb, create partitions, wait, spend five screens clicking 'no' on all of the options, unplug ethernet so it allows you to make a local account, wait, login, spend 15 minutes uninstalling all of the preinstalled nonsense, disable all of the advertising on the task bar and desktop, pretend the rest of the telemetry doesn't exist, download and install the latest drivers from each manufacturers website. Very simple.
Man. Last time I just wanted to check if my new laptop was working properly, so I booted up it's preinstalled Windows. I literally had to look up how to get Windows to get me into Explorer without creating an account or connecting it to my network.
It took me about 25 minutes and Windows was already installed on the damn thing.
It took 15 minutes from booting a prepared Fedora stick to logging in.
I honestly believe that, by now, Linux is no more difficult than Windows. People are just not used to the differences.
It has gotten more difficult. I remember windows 7 being just clicking Next until it was done. Win10 requires a signup, clicking no on several telemetry pages with dark patterns, a whole bunch of BS "features".
Installing windows takes stupidly long. You have to click through 60 pages and click "No, i don't want to share my data" just for them to collect it anyway
Unfortunatly, that's the reality of how computers are sold. If customers could try out both windows and Ubuntu at the store before buying and then got the variant with that OS preinstalled, I bet more people might use Linux, especially if they saved money by not paying for a windows license.
Another bad one is Fedora's. I'm used to it, of course, but the placement of the buttons to exit screens is all over the fuck, and you better know what you're doing in order to even set the hostname and make a user during install.
It's one of the only installers that seems to take the longest compatatively and (afaik) doesn't really let you leave it unaftended. Most other distros let you just set everything first then go, but Debian does that and then asks you what DE and other questions mid install..
brother, 99% of users will never even consider installing their own os. the issue isn't that Linux is hard to install, the issue is that pretty much anyone brave enough to even mess with their operating system is either already on Linux, a boomer, or trapped by professional software that isn't available on Linux (that's me, a videographer)
the only way Linux is breaking out of extreme obscurity is if it starts coming pre-installed on commercially available and desirable hardware. the steam deck did more for Linux in a single product launch than the entire decade of combined efforts before that. before the deck i would have said it was simply never going to happen, but who knows. maybe it'll be up to eccentric billionaires that never went public with their companies to push the Linux future we all want.
Build your installer with Rufus and bypass most of the Oobe. Then it's literally a few clicks. You can be at the windows 11 desktop in 10 minutes from USB boot if you know what you're doing. And if you argue that having to know what you're doing makes it harder.... Linux...
Oh no no, it takes forever because it's cumbersome, not only because it's slow (which it also is). Having to opt out of 420 different options for telemetry is crazy.
Windows is definitely easier to use in my opinion. Without having to buy the correct hardware, fiddle with the drivers, find the correct updates, run things through command because there is no UI, and deal with a toxic community.
Installing regular Windows 10/11 is definitely more than twice as painful than installing Debian 12.
Once, I was trying to install Windows 10 and wasted an entire day! The installation would systematically fail at the beginning of the installation with a BS error message that doesn't give any hint about what's going wrong. In the end it just didn't like USB3 as an installation media! I reflashed it to a USB2 and it worked, but OMG was it super slow ! It took literally hours to install !!!
Debian, even as a noobie, you'll go from flashing your ISO to a booted system within an hour. If you've done it once before, you will get it done in 20 minutes.
I've seen it a lot (I do PC builds/repairs as a side gig). I just assume it will cause me grief from the start and keep both USB2 and USB3 sticks handy.
To be fair I've had the issue with Unraid too, but only on one brand's B450 motherboards in my testing. I didn't have a whole bunch to try of course but MSI and Asus was fine, Gigabyte not. X570 didn't have this problem in my experience.
You can install the enterprise iot version or running chris titus's debloat script. But if you do this, you're technically savvy enough to use Linux and really want to/have to stay on Windows.
I don't like Snaps either, but it isn't a that big of a deal. Ubuntu is still vastly more private than Windows. I do prefer Fedora much more because it actually sandboxes system services with SELinux polices. Snap creates a better sandbox for applications than Flatpak, but it is slower to launch applications, depends on AppArmor (which is less secure than SELinux), and uses hard coded package repo (centralized design).
The comment I replied to wasn't comparing Ubuntu vs. Windows though, it was Ubuntu vs. Mint.
If my options were Ubuntu, Windows, and Mac, I'd go with Ubuntu, no question. But the nice thing about Linux is that there are a billion options, I can use what I like, other people can use what they like, and we can all play nice together and even contribute to the same codebase half the time.
I've tried Fedora-- every time I install a new machine, I end up trying several distros before inevitably landing on something with apt. I started on Ubuntu 15ish years ago, and run Debian on anything headless, I just can't get used to other package managers
A container format for programs, similar to Flatpak and Appimage. Snaps were developed by Canonical, and while they're technically an open standard, the only place to get them is from Canonical themselves, so it's sort of a walled-garden thing like phone app stores. Snaps tend to be slower than native packages, and Ubuntu installs the snap version of things by default.
Mint is extremely similar to (and based on) Ubuntu, but with snaps gutted out. There are other differences, but that's the biggest one
That Google search will likely get you results related to multimedia formats, like ogg, webm, and matroska.
The more useful query would be 'containerized software packaging'. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snap_(software) is the link for snaps though, and it should be easy to find other containerized formats from there, Flatpak is probably in the 'see also' section
Cinnamon with Wayland is still in testing. X11/X.Org is unmaintained software and is less secure than Wayland. GNOME is the only desktop at the moment that actually protects the screen from arbitrary recording by applications. Just food for thought.
Honestly, if you're happy with Ubuntu, don't worry about what other people think. A lot of the (valid) complains of Ubuntu require research to understand why to be outraged.
I personally only use immutable now (bazite, aurora and steam OS) and I wouldn't have it any other way now.
Okay I’m a big supporter of Linux but this is misinformation.
Windows 11 LTSC install was the easiest install I’ve ever done, even easier than mint (or as easy).
The image I used even asked me the username when I was creating the bootable usb so I would save some time.
It also let me opt out of data collection and the rest of the bloatware.
Came with office and it was pre activated.
Now, if only that’s what Microsoft offered their mainstream consumer…
Edit: I don’t understand the downvotes. My last sentence does point out that Microsoft doesnt intentionally make it easier but imo we shouldn’t circle jerk by just claiming things that can easily be false.
The last Windows I installed was Windows 10. I was trying to install onto a SATA SSD, while keeping my pre-existing Linux installation on the M.2 SSD intact. This took me an unreasonably long time and lots of failed attempts, and in the end, the only way I could find to make it work was to first physically remove the M.2, then install Windows, then add the M.2 back again. Which sucked a lot, because M.2s are really not optimized for easy or frequent installation and deinstallation.
I have no idea what you're talking about. I mean that in the sense that whatever you've used to install Windows, it must not be common knowledge or the default.
If you need special knowledge or access, I would call that "difficulty". So even though, after you had all your special knowledge or access, it was easy, acquiring those preconditions was hard.
Yes but the context of the post is overall difficulty. Of course if you're an expert in something, related things to that specialty will be easy for you. But we're talking about how hard something is for non-experts.
Again, you're in the Linux memes sub. Normie knowledge is getting you an enjoyable Linux experience no matter how you slice it. If we are talking about difficulty curve of installing an OS, you are already eliminating all the normies.
He's talking about a debloated version of Windows. Of course it is simple to create installation media. But the comment I replied to insinuates that there's some simple installation package to not include all the windows bloat, spyware, data collection etc.
The default Windows install is easy, like the image shows.
If you are good with a slightly more complicated install process and don't need access to Windows tools (like Outlook, Teams, Word, PowerPoint, etc), you can run Linux on bare metal to access the full potential of your hardware without any overhead from virtualization or emulation.
Fedora has hands down the worst installer I've ever seen. Some distros don't have one, yes, some don't have a GUI one, yes, some require additional configuration afterwards, yes, but Fedora's is just confusing as hell for no good reason.
It's also the only distro I had sound issues (i.e. no sound at all) with ever, and the only one where an installation has straight up failed to a point it created an unbootable system.
tldr: I wanted to try Fedora and capitulated on install. Still enough brainpower for EndeavourOS btw.
I spent around an hour trying to understand how to use Fedora's manual partitioner. I think I just ended up partitioning it with gparted or cfdisk from a different system. Never had problems with manual partitioning on other distros' installers.
Which one are you calling fringe? These are all popular distros, with the exception of maybe Gentoo but that's still very well known even if not that many people daily drive it. Also still makes sense in this context to include a well known distro that's also known for being relatively hard to install
Setting up a local user account only is easy. Shift+f10 to open command prompt and then run OOBE\BYPASSNRO and then you can run the setup with zero network requirements and zero account requirements.
I call bullshit. It only took me 3 hours to compile and install gentoo on my latest build and get proper desktop environment working. Granted I'm still tweaking the config files 4 years later, but it's perfect!
is there an installer edition that doesn't put you through the questionnaire for what level of bullshit they can trick you in to accepting?
Are you sure you're sure that your sure that you definitely aren't unsure about making an online account? Well here's the form for it anyway because you didn't remove all your network devices and use an edited install iso. And while we're at it, here's copilot, and a trial for office that you get billed for if you forget, and all your stuff is on onedrive securely stored for the safe perusal of relevant parties. Now please wait while we get things ready for you. You might think this unexplained loading screen is longer than the full time it takes to install most linux distros but we assure you important computery stuff is happening.
Of course there is. Windows gets used in professional settings.
You can setup a Windows Deployment Service where you can deploy Windows from a network boot with all the settings already incorporated.
The only thing you need to do is boot the computer from network and let it do its thing.
Afterwards you have a complete working setup with all the correct settings and updates and software already installed. With literally 1 minute of work.
that windows install isn't the procedure m$ tells you to use though. the correct comparison to that IMO would be using one of the 4 or 5 easy arch installers.
that said I'd still use bazzite. now a real janky ass install would be fedora core os on an sbc, using emmc for boot but nvme for root.
post windows 7/early 10 versions, I would place it harder than arch. I had to go through a bunch of shit to get my mobo mount nvme drives to show up, then came the cursed hell of just clicking through all the setup questions where they make it sound like you have a choice, but you don't unless you do the custom install image bullshit aka the harder windows install on the chart.
Can you cook macaroni? Or is it based on boiling water?
All data is stored on partitions, so one way or another you copy them. Easiest way to copy them is to dd. Second easiest way is to mount rootfs and boot fs and do mksquashfs on them. Third way is to pack it to tarball like Gentoo does.
Unless you install Linux mint with multiple displays. Holy 1 sec flickering sideways displays Batman. I don’t remember what I did exactly to fix but probably single display until drivers are all installed.
Hobbyist here, in my opinion reading the manual or the wiki is easy, understanding it quickly is not. You can obvioulsy follow the instructions blindly and still succeed.
For the most part is very comprehensive but sometimes you are left alone to connect the dots which is very daunting when instructions get technical and you do not understand them.
In the end it felt like one of those half semester courses Universities try to cram in.
I set up a kiosk on a Linux Mint machine today. From blank, unformatted drive to fully deployed kiosk, it took less time than just installing a base install of win11.
Why is Debian more difficult than Fedora? I could understand older versions, but these days they fixed pretty much all the small annoyances. No need to use the "nonfree" iso, because that's integrated into the installer. And post install sudo works as expected out of the box. I'd say they should be equal.
Is there any guide to install this Debloated Windows? 🤔
So far what I used is to use debloater script and also to disable that windows update service related stuff. Just wondering whether there is more unhinged part in it.
Also no custom rom android image? because technically it use older and customized linux kernel.
Ah the Tiny10 and Tiny11, never tried them before because I thought it can be buggy when windows update happen (heck even normal windows update can brick grub bootloader).
Maybe I will try to compare them against LTSC IoT just for shit and giggles sake of performance different before M$ phase Win10 out.
While I also have those Win 10 and 11 LTSC versions on my ventoy drive, I just wondering whether you can tweak further aside of uninstalling stuff through powershell and disabling services through registries because I just enjoy being superuser (questioning what is referred in this post image).
Yes I like collecting OS images and troubleshoot toolkit isos as Im being "IT Support" on my circles.
EDIT:
I will read every comment on this post in case someone on comment have already elaborate further.
In that case you might be interested in Tiny 11 which someone else mentioned. Since you like collecting, you may also be interested in ReactOS and Zorin.
I'm not familiar with Mint and I only installed Fedora twice/on two baremetal PCs ... but how much easier can you go compared to Debian?
Is it like a cleaner UI or more preinstalled essentials?
Im not using Fedora (nor Debian or Mint), I like my weeds to tumble & my susey to be open.
Also I ... wouldn't ask which distro is easer to install just to switch to that one bcs of that reason. Sounds redundant.
But with Proxmox (a hypervisor) for virtual machines Debian is my go-to (as with most users everywhere) and Im too lazy for templates so I install a few Debians from scratch now and then - and it takes like no time. So I was wandering if Mint just has less steps or some other friendliness tricks.
I said English UK but you're free to try it with any language that doesn't make Microsoft believe you're from the US or Canada, but I bet a European country would be best considering the amount of laws they have to prevent abuse by corporations compared to the rest of the world...
All these threads make me want to take the leap to Linux. My work laptop runs on Mint, but as for my home pc.. guess I'll still have to wait for more Proton development/compatibility.
Last time I checked, part of the games I want to play soon (Remnant 2, Supervive, Legion TD 2, Morimens, Sengoku Dynasty, Ravenswatch and a few others) seem to require a little more experimentation than I'd like.
Don't get me wrong, as a modder of obscure Chinese games and at work, I'm all for experimenting. But for the 1h per day I can play, I'll wait until I'm quite sure I won't spend it tinkering around to get my current games to work.
I have heard of absolutely none of those games. Looking at protondb, it's a mixed bag of miscellaneous hassle. Supervive actually has a message that reads "wine, proton, and steam deck are not supported by this application". Legion TD seems like you have to pray to RNG-sus. Dynasty has no reports at all... For the issues people are having with some of these, aside from supervive just blocking wine entirely, it is indeed more janky tinkering than I could justify doing myself, let alone expecting anyone else to.
I suppose its all relative, but I didn't find debloated windows to be much worse than anything else. I used microwin though, is that a different experience?
Having installed both recently, Manjaro is slightly easier than Fedora (KDE spin), never tried to install Mint so I don't know if it's above or below that
I mean I touch on them sometimes to see what has been replaced or changed because linux moves pretty fast but the steps are not complicated or hard to remember.
Mint was super easy. I just had to scratch my head for two days trying to figure out why the keyboard didn't work after coming out of suspend. Had something to do with it being in a USB 3.0 port. Once I plugged it into a 2.0-port it worked.
Isn't mint a downstream product of Ubuntu? I haven't paid attention to them since they were distributing images from a compromised WordPress site years ago 😂
Maybe I've been DDing Ubuntu for so long that I just couldn't be bothered to try another distro based on it. I want to try a rolling release distro, but I'm too old to distro hop. All I care about is a functional system anymore.
Archinstall exists which does something similar but with a TUI. I disagree that it's as easy as Debian's graphical installer but it is significantly easier than it used to be before archinstall existed.
i seriously do not understand what's up with some of you, why do you spell stuff like in "m$". The extra work to type it like this doesn't matter at all. It makes no difference, Microsoft will not shut down because you spelled their name as "micro$oft" on your lemmy post or something like that. why do you keep doing this, i don't understand.
It's literally one more keystrokes, and people who do it often in a phone probably have it autocomplete. This message took much longer to write than probably every single time the OP has written MS as M$.
If I were to take a guess, it's probably just a censorship joke. Censoring the word implies that it is inappropriate to say. Like when people say Fr*ench".
More in the line of "Microsoft is a capitalist POS that only cares about money and doesn't cater to my niche specific needs." And they want to remind everyone every time they talk about Microsoft.
I've never "debloated" Windows so idk about the top half.
The bottom half is accurate. Debian, Fedora, and Mint are easier to install than Windows 10 or 11. Not that Windows is difficult, it's just a bit clunky and idiosyncratic.
I assume Microsoft doesn't care much about the installer since it's generally only used by OEMs, whereas for Linux distros it's a first impression so it has to be polished.
No excuse though. Try the "install as oem" of Linux Mint. You get an install with temporary oem account, you can update the system, install additional programs, then click "Prepare for shipping to end user" and on next boot you're greeted with a setup screen.
That sounds pretty nice. More installers should have something like that
It's very user friendly. I switched last year and haven't looked back. I game on it constantly.
Well, if you want accuracy, then no the meme isn't really that accurate.
On an updated Win11 system the Shift+ F10 command prompt "OOBE\BYPASSNRO" trick still works to setup a new system without Internet (and by extension, without a MS account) so that's like most of the battle right there
The rest is taken care of with your choice of debloat scripts that are out there
compared to clicking "next" on Fedora, Debian, or Mint
I'd say using a simple straightforward GUI is much easier than an arcane combination of commands and keypresses
Wait, did we just reach a point where a command line input is needed for Windows and Linux just needs to press a few buttons??
I can't find it now, but there was a meme about that here. How 20 years ago vs present the two are flipped.
Only if you don't count installing drivers
Well, I didn't say it should be ranked towards the bottom lol, if we want to make this graph accurate it would be below arch but above "Windows the normal way"
I think i misunderstood you my bad
If you install arch with the archinstall script you basically get a setup wizard
And installing a Microsoft-account-free Windows install is only the first step of de-bloating the system. So I'd say debloated Windows in somewhere between Arch and Gentoo
I used AtlasOS on my windows partition. Had to cause for some reason steam streaming was borked and would only black screen. And now I’m too lazy to swap back over to cachyos. Lmao. Waiting to see that bug is fixed.
I had to install Windows 11 on something a few weeks ago so I decided to do it without an account, it was nowhere near as difficult to do it as this sub would lead you to believe. Pressed a key combination to load up the command prompt then typed in a relatively short command. The GUI restarted and that was it.
Yeh, it's there.
But Linux installers would straight up ask you. So you don't even need to hit the CLI
Almost everyone using Linux installed it. Almost no one using Windows installed it.
You don't think that many people build their own Windows PCs? Linux gaming isn't that old in the grand scheme of things, and there's plenty of people who dual boot for various reasons.
I'd almost be willing to bet that there are more people who've installed Windows on their PC than there are people who've installed Linux from a pure numbers standpoint.
Most gaming PCs are pre built. Boutiques have been a business for decades. And every major PC OEM has a gaming division.pc building is niche.
PC building is niche, yes, but do you think "almost no one" builds PCs, like OP said? And that's not even including the people who've had to install Windows on a pre-built system for one reason or another.
My point is that OP sounds like a smug Linux user shitting on people who use Windows. Even 5% of Windows users is too big a group of people to be described as "almost no one" simply because of how big the userbase is. That would be like saying, "Almost no one installs Linux" because Linux only makes up a small portion of the worldwide PC userbase.
I build my own systems. And I dont know what y'all are smoking but a typical windows installation has the complexity of opening a jar of pickles. Next next yes and away we go.
Linux on the other hand..
Now, if you want to debloat and install without a ms account then yes. But then... Really.... Who does that? (i mean of the typical windows users
Avoiding MS account and many manual parts of the installation (opting out of shit) is like two clicks in Rufus before installation. Everyone should do it.
That's what I'm saying. Windows installation is idiot-proof. And I'm sure there's enough people who maintain their own systems or at the very least have had to install Windows for one reason or another that to say that "almost no one" who runs Windows installed it themselves is just the "Linux Master Race" talking.
Installing endeavourOS was easier than Windows because of all the ads you need to bypass and the telemetry options on Windows. The partitioning options on endeavourOS were easier too plus if necessary one can use a browser. The only difficulty there was on EndeavourOS which the Windows installer didn't have was picking a wm.
That was the most complicated installer I've seen for a Linux distro beside arch32 which doesn't even come with archinstall.
Ubuntu, Fedora, OpenSuse, Debian, Mint are also next, next, yes
But those pickle jars also use your monitor's native resolution
Windows on the other hand..
and all of those numbers combined will still be less than 5% of users.
I think Windows installs are really common, at least going off of the size of online gaming communities who generally build their own PCs.
The latter usually have someone to install it for them.
This sub is delusional
Like every linux community. Living in a bubble that doesn't exist.
Why?
Mac users:
Well Mac users do too... Well they don't... but someone does.
I was that someone for some family members. I felt icky the whole time.
I once upgraded a girl's parents' computer to System 8 and didn't realize it wasn't supported. Fucked up the BIOS (or whatever Macs used back then) and they had to ship it back to Apple to get fixed. I did not hear from her again.
But I haven't actually installed Mac OS since about Puma. New operating systems just come down in the normal software update. But I still cherish my OS X Beta DVD.
A couple months ago my sister bricked her mac somehow... it wouldn't boot past the stupid white screen with a ? on it.
Had to edit random shit on the built in installer to get it to talk to apple correctly and pull the correct OS image to fix itself. It was a full OS install/recovery.
Easy enough because I understand linux/unix and underneath that's all it is... but mac users are just stupidly lost... And to get to some of those tools, because they're so buried underneath the "MAC experience"... it's a pain in the ass too.
I can't be bothered to remember what version it was... I hate touching macs. I only did that one cause it was my sister.
As a Mac user since System 1.0 with over 20 years of experience using Linux for Fortune 500 companies and major government agencies: Most people are stupidly lost, regardless of the OS they're using.
Question mark standardly means it can't find the drive. Used to be hold down the alt key to select boot drive. If nothing comes up still plug into Ethernet in some manner, then boot again with alt, should pull an online os installer that will bring you to the disk utility and such. Can troubleshoot the drive from there and figure out if it needs repairing / formatting / replacing
Where does a Hackintosh fall in?
At the top because you risk going to jail for violating the Apple terms of service/end user license agreement.
lol. They only ever pursed anyone for selling Mac clones or hardware for doing it. And the hardware was just a preconfigured usb drive with a motherboard connector on it. I think there were actual Apple devs moonlighting as hackintosh contributors.
You do not risk going to jail, come on lol. People are so dramatic about doing the most minor unenforced crimes I swear
The hardest one at all. You have to afford a new computer every 2 years.
I don't think you know what a Hackintosh is.
This is also 99% of Windows users
Windows requires pressing next 12 times, what are you people smoking and can I haz?
There's also a number of things you have to click "no" on, like a free trial office or Onedrive.
It took me around an hour to set up my new Win 11 laptop, most of which was downloading and installing updates. I expected far worse.
Oh please, we spend an hour fucking around in a new Linux install to get things the way we like them too.
A new Linux installation is usually usable and you spend an hour tailoring it to your specific needs. While in a new Windows installation I spend the first hour remembering things that'll start popping up/executing in the background and disabling them just to get it to a usable state.
Just learn how to install windows the way you want it to be just like you learn the best way to install a distro. Debloated windows takes minutes to install and takes so little actual effort if you know what you're doing.
I probably cannot get Windows to be the way I like it. They make every change I want to make a pain, and the ways to circumvent their shenanigans are always changing. Setting up a local account, changing your default browser, stopping onedrive from wasting your time, all of these should be quick and simple changes, but they just wouldn't let you choose for yourself, they have to shove their products and settings down your throat with every new installation, update, and misclick. I spent more than an hour setting up a new installation and I still find new ways Edge can start itself, I cannot imagine the time it would take for me to make this as usable as a simple Linux installation with some changes to the DE.
All of these changes you list can be achieved in a couple of clicks.
Don't know what you are smoking my dude.
At some point changing the default browser required setting each file type's default app one by one. Using a local account once was a normal option then it became hidden and required setting up some questions then you had to disconnect from Wi-Fi and now it's not a visible option and you have to get around it with some command. This may take you some clicks when you've already installed Windows before, but it's heading towards simply not being an option, and setting up a usable Linux installation is already much easier today.
Man, people are really liberal with the word "usable" around here. As if a plain windows install is somehow this thing that can't be understood or used. Come on, it makes it hard to take these convos seriously. Millions of people use just plain, out of the box, Windows.
No, see: some of us spend countless hours setting up their NixOS config repo, which is totally worth it because you save half an hour when moving to a new machine
I would argue it takes even longer to get a windows install how I like it. Even using Chris Titus Tech's tool, it probably takes 2 hours for me to install things like winget, steam, librewolf, libreoffice, blender and configure the task bar and lock screen. Not to mention how last time I checked, I could not rebind the windows key to trigger the app overview how I like it.
That's not windows tho, that's setting up your entire fucking digital life to your satisfaction. The meme is about like, going to the task bar and telling Microsoft "no this isnt just a shitty gnome, please use my entire monitor"
For everything else just use winget-ui and install everything you want
How often are you installing windows? I deploy probably 7-8 a week. I can have an image usable without telemetry in 10 minutes.
I seldom install windows, so I also have to relearn some things during the debloat. At 10 minutes, you are basically speedrunning the windows installation process lol.
How I want a windows install is "working, with no BS".
It comes out the box working, all I needed to do was disable Onedrive on boot. I haven't even bothered to change the background, and probably won't.
Getting Mint the way I like it takes about 20 minutes, including the install itself.
Of course, I usually spend four or five hours trying other distros first, before eventually deciding on Mint.
Thaaaaank you for being the fucking voice of reason
The updates often do take many times the install time which can be a bit frustrating, though it is an area being worked on: https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/blog/windows-itpro-blog/introducing-windows-11-checkpoint-cumulative-updates/4182552
It's honestly not that bad, it's not like you're required to actually do anything while this is happening.
And downloading updates is a good thing. Means that the fresh installation isn't vulnerable to something that was fixed between when the USB / DVD was pressed and the time the person installed it.
Yeah, and you can wander off and do something else in the meantime.
See, Ubuntu only requires pressing next 6 times, and Fedora is only 8.
That's essentially what it boils down to nowadays.
Unless you want tpm backed full disk encryption in which case.... Good luck
One click for Mac and windows, a lifetime of fun for Linux (except arch w/sysdboot which works pretty good)
I'm happy with regular password FDE, i think i'm more likely to encounter hardware failure (and then need to read the drive from another machine) than theft of the drive.
It's a good point though, I'm sure many people do need this feature. Ubuntu is "working on it" but so far i guess it's mostly not working except for VMs
I have a media center that serves over the internet via VPN, I don't want to leave it unencrypted but I also don't want to have to go home and type in a pass every time California has a power outage, which is monthly during the dry fire season and >monthly during the "storm" season. I wouldn't care as much for my personal laptop or anything, but for servers it seems like an absolute must have and..what is Linux for if not servers?
I think the traditional way to do that is via dm-crypt, which you can set up with an ssh server.
You can also use a network-shared file rather than a password for LUKS but it's not as straightforward to set up as a password. If you are doing something like tailscale then it'd be unlocked as long as you are on the VPN
Typing in a password in-person at a data center would be a huge hassle, agreed
But...it's literally what the tpm chip is for. Like there may be other options, but the tpm chip's purpose in life is to do this thing. And it's been doing that for a decade. Seems pretty traditional to me. But Linux folks in some venues treat it like a plague that needs to be eradicated.
Looking at RHEL docs it seems to also work there. The same instructions probably work in Fedora but idk I've never done it myself
But then you have to wait 45 minutes for Windows update to spin, and potentially hang in the middle
Is it difficult for you to wait?
No, that's fair. Annoying but not difficult.
With a MS account. Which spies on everything and sells your info.
Use Rufus, skip online account and automatically opt out of telemetry.
Oobe\bypassnro
Thank me later
Or just use software that you don't need to mod to do what you want. That's easier.
Literally not a mod
Do I think needing to do this is fucking stupid? Yes
Do I still put up with Microsoft's bullshit because Linux is actively worse (as a parallel Linux user)? also fucking yes
I've been asking for several years for anything remotely resembling proof of this.
Will you be the first person to actually provide it? (I swear to fucking god if you link me to the terms of use....)
How do you think they advertise to you in the search bar?
They don't? Very first thing I turn off is that shit show of a function.
However, let's imagine you're someone who leaves that on even though it objectively sucks...the answer is cookies. Your spyware example is cookies.
It would be awesome if someone created an OS that didn't exploit such a resource for financial gain...
What is the very first thing you do after installing the super private and much sekure Linux? You download Steam and give Valve your data. This is bullshit.
So is Microsoft
Yes, that's my point. You will eventually log into something when using the computer. So while it's weird that MS made it mandatory to sign into Windows 11, who cares.
They can also get your data without an account if they wanted.
On Linux, you can install Steam inside a sandbox for better security. Easy to do with either Flatpak or Bubblejail. This makes it so that Steam does not have full file system access.
Not something most people are gonna do. If you need privacy and security on the level where even Steam worries you, Windows can be made private too. It's not even that hard. You just install a different ISO that allows local accounts and do all the necessary tweaks to harden it.
Flatpak is installed on basically every Linux distribution. Literally all I do to install Steam is go to the Software Center and search "steam" and click install. It takes 2 clicks.
You know that Steam is run on Arch right?
would love to see some actual market research on this. sit down a sample of users, have them install then use some OSs. interview them on their experience. rather than yknow making up data
Biased as fuck lol. Installing windows is not difficult. I did it first time at the age of 8 witn WIndows 98 and their newer installers are made so the general public can do it. And the bloat and spyware? Thats windows dude. Its not meant to be your OS, its meant to spy on your ass at the benefit of being familiar and (relative) easy to use. Anything you do to it post clean install is your own tinkering. Linux distros are great yall, but install difficulty is not a metric I would use to attack windows. Comparing between distros makes sense.
It can be quite difficult for puzzling reasons. I bought my laptop with no OS because it was cheaper to buy a Windows license separately. I downloaded the ISO and put it on a USB drive and ... It wouldn't boot. It took me half a day and I had to follow guides with various black magic which I can't even recall what was about to finally get the thing to boot from USB. After spending over a day on that, I installed Ubuntu and set up dual booting in about 30 minutes.
This doesn't say it's difficult, just says there are others which are less difficult. Even if you accept everything at default, windows installs take much longer.
I'm not sure why you even think this is an attack on windows really. You keep saying windows is for those who want easy to use, so why not include the whole process?
Longer != difficult. Windows installs are easy as fuck and id say its as simple as linux mint.
The debloating is a choice and id say thats the same amount of work as installing stuff in linux because what it comes with is very limited.
Im a linux mint user btw
It's easier than even mint. Because I've installed windows dozens of times and it has always worked out of the box. Always.
Friend gave me their old laptop that was sluggish and asked me to reinstall windows. I proposed Linux and promised them it'd work even better, they reluctantly agreed. I install mint. Sound not coming through headphones. I update everything that's there to update, tried a bunch of shit and waste like an hour before I finally find a thread that suggested manually updating to a newer kernel version. That fixes it.
Now I know something extra for next time but if it were someone less stubborn, they'd have given up and went back to windows. Most people don't know and don't care about debloating, trackers and whatnot.
Tldr; Windows is the easiest OS to install because it works right out of the box. Many Linux distros are even easier to install, but don't always work out of the box.
Exactly. Linux mint was fine on my laptop, but only later i had to upgrade kernel for the amd drivers, but overall its the closest to a spotless experience ive had. But what you said is 1000% correct!
I believe you, but my experience is the opposite. Generally wifi doesnt work ootb on Windows for systems i've set up, and newer games are crashy until you install the latest chipset drivers. The drivers Windows installs seem to be many versions back and have been unstable IME
on Ubuntu or Fedora i've not had a single issue in over a decade. Not one time has a component not worked for me on the first boot. It's been truly flawless. Games work at full performance right away.
My only possible explanation is that we must be working with pretty different hardware
Linux has made leaps and bounds with usability and ease of installation but it's no better than any other modern OS - which is a good thing. Installing Windows from a USB stick is not difficult - the simple path is literally, pick a language, select your wifi, choose who is logging in, click install and go grab a coffee. About the only difficulty if you can call it one is that some installs will ask for a serial number because it's a commercial product.
Also, the number of questions & buttons during installation is one thing but the certainty of a functioning system is another. Linux is better at supporting old hardware, Windows is better at supporting new hardware. Choose accordingly if that matters.
Linux installs like Ubuntu take about 20 minutes.
The last time I installed windows 11 (thank God only once) it took me a total of 7 hours divided over 3 days. It was hell, requiring multiple iso downloads, multiple tries to burn a USB with a variety of tools, loads of searching and reading documentation, multiple BIOS settings and a BIOS update, multiple install attempts, searching, downloading and installing drivers, then finally on the winning install it still took like an hour with god knows how many "fuck off and do your job" clicks.
Mind you, this was on the same machine where right before I installed Linux on a separate M2 device
Windows installations are a horror show.
I kind of miss the Win98 install process. I did it so many times.. Tried making a Win98 virtual machine, but it just wasn't the same without all the real floppies. The boot disk, the drivers. The JazzJ Jackrabbit shareware. Good times.
As someone who has tried to install Windows from Linux, and Linux from Windows.... The meme is accurate. Even getting the official Windows ISO on a USB from Linux or MacOS is a multi-hour journey. Want to only install Windows on part of your hard drive? There goes another 15 minutes. Maybe 30 minutes because it wiped your GRUB partition. Honestly, try to do anything but the default options in the Windows install and you'll lose 2 hours.
Installing Linux? I've installed Arch Linux in under 10 minutes. Manjaro is literally flash ISO to USB using any program (Windows, Linux or Mac) and watch an installer spin for 20 minutes. Windows? You'll be spending 20 minutes on your first "update".
Install windows, run debloat powershell script. Done.
Microsoft give no shortage of things to complain about without needing to exaggerate.
What does debloating entail exactly?
Disabling unnecessary background services, disabling telemetry, removing preinstalled adware. Easy to do with WinUtil by Chris Titus Tech.
That's literally only the first step of the debloating rabbit hole.
Or just run Tiny11.
The first thing that has actually been useful here. Thanks!
What an absurdly sycophantic graph.
I can agree that installing Arch is easier than installing a debloated Windows. But Gentoo? I spent 2 weeks trying to install it, but couldn't get past partitioning the drive.
I meant, I partitioned the drives, but could not complete the steps after that. I couldn't use that tar file to compile the kernel.
I think "couldn't get past partitioning the drive" means they managed to partition the drive but couldn't get beyond it ie couldn't do any more after that.
I’m genuinely curious as an Arch user. Does gentoo not come with fdisk?
Or you know, gparted, arch bootable, Windows Drive Management, Ubuntu…
I mean out of all the things I’d THINK you’d have trouble in, partitioning and formatting is…. not one of them.
Yes it does. And while time-consuming it's actually not too bad if you just follow the guide and don't just skim through it.
There are certain parts of the guide where i really wish it went into more detail.
Last time i installed Gentoo i had the Arch wiki open alongside the guide to help translate
Yeah to be fair it does make some assumptions about you knowing how to do something or know what you want.
The arch wiki is a good substitute, but the gentoo wiki when it was still around and at its peak was amazing.
But I agree... Gentoo is not quite keeping up with a lot of details. Like experimenting with refind, dracut, efistubs, I felt I was in the dark a lot of the time. I ended up making very few mistakes, because the distro is very good at working for special cases even if all the details are not explained. Still my favourite distro.
Oh, it does: https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Handbook:AMD64/Installation/Disks
Look at that manual, isn't it nice?
Ma-ma-manual?
I thought there were only automatics nowadays!
No wonder Linux is so hard
man fdiskBut it does make it more difficult relative to the others, which is all that any unitless chart is ever saying.
Reread what I said.
A>B is a relative statement that gives no information on the absolute values of either. If I say that Miami's elevation is greater than New Orleans', that doesn't mean that I'm saying Miami's equal to the top of Mount Everest.
I don't even know what this graph is even supposed to mean. Bitch about Windows all you like but the installation process is typically very simple.
There is no X axis so I'm going to assume it means potatoes per guinea pig
I guess it means that no one here knows what Windows Debloated is and didn't read far down enough to see regular windows marked as very easy to install.
Boot off usb, create partitions, wait, spend five screens clicking 'no' on all of the options, unplug ethernet so it allows you to make a local account, wait, login, spend 15 minutes uninstalling all of the preinstalled nonsense, disable all of the advertising on the task bar and desktop, pretend the rest of the telemetry doesn't exist, download and install the latest drivers from each manufacturers website. Very simple.
Man. Last time I just wanted to check if my new laptop was working properly, so I booted up it's preinstalled Windows. I literally had to look up how to get Windows to get me into Explorer without creating an account or connecting it to my network.
It took me about 25 minutes and Windows was already installed on the damn thing.
It took 15 minutes from booting a prepared Fedora stick to logging in.
I honestly believe that, by now, Linux is no more difficult than Windows. People are just not used to the differences.
You got a point up until you login.
Afterwards, just run a powershell script that automatically uninstalls the bloat and disables all the stuff you don't want. Takes 30 seconds at most.
Drivers are automatically installed via Windows update for everything except Nvidia.
It has gotten more difficult. I remember windows 7 being just clicking Next until it was done. Win10 requires a signup, clicking no on several telemetry pages with dark patterns, a whole bunch of BS "features".
Installing gentoo
Installing windows takes stupidly long. You have to click through 60 pages and click "No, i don't want to share my data" just for them to collect it anyway
I'm pretty sure it's less than 10, and I just recently set up a Windows machine.
Who installs an unmodified installer package? That's just silly. Setup your installer using Rufus or something similar and this is not an issue.
Installing a debloated Windows takes 15 minutes if you know what you are doing.
The only thing you need to wait on is installing updates.
Really? Never installed win11 but I remember win10 installs being similarly straightforward to e.g. a calamares install or something like that.
As much as I wish this were true, this is in a bubble where Windows isn't already preinstalled on everything.
Unfortunatly, that's the reality of how computers are sold. If customers could try out both windows and Ubuntu at the store before buying and then got the variant with that OS preinstalled, I bet more people might use Linux, especially if they saved money by not paying for a windows license.
It said "(Debloated)" you still have to debloat it even if it's already installed and has enough storage for your liking.
If you actually read the whole graph, you'll see windows has 2 entries.
My apologies, I didn't see that 😅
I love Debian, but it's installer is shit.
It really is, I can use it, but it's clunky compared to even Arch's TUI. Gentoo is harder, but Gentoo isn't trying to do what Debian is.
Another bad one is Fedora's. I'm used to it, of course, but the placement of the buttons to exit screens is all over the fuck, and you better know what you're doing in order to even set the hostname and make a user during install.
It's one of the only installers that seems to take the longest compatatively and (afaik) doesn't really let you leave it unaftended. Most other distros let you just set everything first then go, but Debian does that and then asks you what DE and other questions mid install..
I've probably used it more than a hundred times now, but I still get confused about the current step sometimes.
Um... My grandma installed Windows 11 on her computer and then ran a simple script I gave her after. You guys are delusional.
brother, 99% of users will never even consider installing their own os. the issue isn't that Linux is hard to install, the issue is that pretty much anyone brave enough to even mess with their operating system is either already on Linux, a boomer, or trapped by professional software that isn't available on Linux (that's me, a videographer)
the only way Linux is breaking out of extreme obscurity is if it starts coming pre-installed on commercially available and desirable hardware. the steam deck did more for Linux in a single product launch than the entire decade of combined efforts before that. before the deck i would have said it was simply never going to happen, but who knows. maybe it'll be up to eccentric billionaires that never went public with their companies to push the Linux future we all want.
This is true, but the people who think of Windows as easier to use are not people who install operating systems themselves.
I install OSes myself and windows is easy.
Windows 11 takes foreeeeeever to install on cutting edge hardware. Arch OTA is literally 4 clicks and fast as fuck.
Build your installer with Rufus and bypass most of the Oobe. Then it's literally a few clicks. You can be at the windows 11 desktop in 10 minutes from USB boot if you know what you're doing. And if you argue that having to know what you're doing makes it harder.... Linux...
Length doesn't equate to difficulty to me.
Oh no no, it takes forever because it's cumbersome, not only because it's slow (which it also is). Having to opt out of 420 different options for telemetry is crazy.
I followed a guide to remove all that shit from the installer and still had to say no to most of it, and it showed up anyway.
I don't get at what you're trying to say.
You think "windows is easy", but do you think it is "easier to use" than Linux?
Generally, yeah. That's why I said what I said to you. Not sure where the confusion is.
I've installed over +400 Window machines.
Windows is definitely easier to use in my opinion. Without having to buy the correct hardware, fiddle with the drivers, find the correct updates, run things through command because there is no UI, and deal with a toxic community.
So your statement is factually incorrect.
Installing regular Windows 10/11 is definitely more than twice as painful than installing Debian 12.
Once, I was trying to install Windows 10 and wasted an entire day! The installation would systematically fail at the beginning of the installation with a BS error message that doesn't give any hint about what's going wrong. In the end it just didn't like USB3 as an installation media! I reflashed it to a USB2 and it worked, but OMG was it super slow ! It took literally hours to install !!!
Debian, even as a noobie, you'll go from flashing your ISO to a booted system within an hour. If you've done it once before, you will get it done in 20 minutes.
What the hell. I've never seen such an issue. Microsoft is so considerate; they provide us with cool little surprises like that from time to time. ♥️
I've seen it a lot (I do PC builds/repairs as a side gig). I just assume it will cause me grief from the start and keep both USB2 and USB3 sticks handy.
To be fair I've had the issue with Unraid too, but only on one brand's B450 motherboards in my testing. I didn't have a whole bunch to try of course but MSI and Asus was fine, Gigabyte not. X570 didn't have this problem in my experience.
It works over USB 3.0, it sounds like you just have a broken or corrupt drive.
It normal does work with USB3, yes. And no, this pendrive works perfectly fine and I've used it to install many other OSes since.
Edit: and I might add that I finally found the solution online so I was definitely not the only one confronted to this problem
Windows 11 without a Microsoft-Account = terminal required. Linux Mint = terminal not required.
Installing debloated windows is not difficult at all.
And how difficult is it to keep it debloated? MS seems to be hellbent on pushing their crap into everyone's face.
Every Windows apologist: "I will keep current on the hacks to fix it forever, easy."
I'm glad I invested the time learning Linux before I had kids and now have no time for anything.
I hope you don't think I'm being a Windows apologist. I'm not defending Windows itself, I'm just saying that it isn't that hard to debloat it.
Understood, sorry to imply that you were.
It's been fine for me so far.
Its called Installing linux.
I would say it is, it's extra installation steps. Fedora I just click a handful of buttons and the OS is installed with no Spyware
You can install the enterprise iot version or running chris titus's debloat script. But if you do this, you're technically savvy enough to use Linux and really want to/have to stay on Windows.
Just because you can use Linux doesn't always mean you want to use Linux.
Why do all my homies use Linux Mint while I use Ubuntu?
Because you're wrong?
Personally I don't like snaps, is the main thing.
I don't like Snaps either, but it isn't a that big of a deal. Ubuntu is still vastly more private than Windows. I do prefer Fedora much more because it actually sandboxes system services with SELinux polices. Snap creates a better sandbox for applications than Flatpak, but it is slower to launch applications, depends on AppArmor (which is less secure than SELinux), and uses hard coded package repo (centralized design).
The comment I replied to wasn't comparing Ubuntu vs. Windows though, it was Ubuntu vs. Mint.
If my options were Ubuntu, Windows, and Mac, I'd go with Ubuntu, no question. But the nice thing about Linux is that there are a billion options, I can use what I like, other people can use what they like, and we can all play nice together and even contribute to the same codebase half the time.
I've tried Fedora-- every time I install a new machine, I end up trying several distros before inevitably landing on something with
apt. I started on Ubuntu 15ish years ago, and run Debian on anything headless, I just can't get used to other package managersWhat are snaps?
A container format for programs, similar to Flatpak and Appimage. Snaps were developed by Canonical, and while they're technically an open standard, the only place to get them is from Canonical themselves, so it's sort of a walled-garden thing like phone app stores. Snaps tend to be slower than native packages, and Ubuntu installs the snap version of things by default.
Mint is extremely similar to (and based on) Ubuntu, but with snaps gutted out. There are other differences, but that's the biggest one
Thanks. I will google container format.
That Google search will likely get you results related to multimedia formats, like ogg, webm, and matroska.
The more useful query would be 'containerized software packaging'. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snap_(software) is the link for snaps though, and it should be easy to find other containerized formats from there, Flatpak is probably in the 'see also' section
They might simply like Mint's Cinnamon over Ubuntu's GNOME. That's a valid choice.
Cinnamon with Wayland is still in testing. X11/X.Org is unmaintained software and is less secure than Wayland. GNOME is the only desktop at the moment that actually protects the screen from arbitrary recording by applications. Just food for thought.
Plasma supports wayland as well. On distros where it doesn't ship by default all you have to do is install a package.
Yes, but Plasma doesnt protect against screen recording. The Devs expressed interest in protecting against arbitrary screen capture, still work in progress. See this issue: https://invent.kde.org/plasma/xdg-desktop-portal-kde/-/issues/7
Snap is hot garbage, and Mint is Ubuntu without Snap, so much better.
Cinnamon is nice. But then I meet KDE...
Honestly, if you're happy with Ubuntu, don't worry about what other people think. A lot of the (valid) complains of Ubuntu require research to understand why to be outraged.
I personally only use immutable now (bazite, aurora and steam OS) and I wouldn't have it any other way now.
I'm going to switch to Mint from Ubuntu because I don't trust Canonical, I would rather have the community controlling the distribution.
Interesting. I will Google "what is canonical"
Canonical is the manufacturer of Ubuntu.
Ahh interesting. Does someone else manufacture mint?
Mint is fully community-owned which is why I'm interested in it, I don't want companies dictating and controlling how the OS should work.
Oh! Thanks for sharing that information
With archinstall script you can install Arch in less than 1 minutes (not counting copying system files)
I installed it following a guide where it had me doing my own partitions and encryption using LUKS in around 30 minutes.
Okay I’m a big supporter of Linux but this is misinformation.
Windows 11 LTSC install was the easiest install I’ve ever done, even easier than mint (or as easy).
The image I used even asked me the username when I was creating the bootable usb so I would save some time.
It also let me opt out of data collection and the rest of the bloatware.
Came with office and it was pre activated.
Now, if only that’s what Microsoft offered their mainstream consumer…
Edit: I don’t understand the downvotes. My last sentence does point out that Microsoft doesnt intentionally make it easier but imo we shouldn’t circle jerk by just claiming things that can easily be false.
The last Windows I installed was Windows 10. I was trying to install onto a SATA SSD, while keeping my pre-existing Linux installation on the M.2 SSD intact. This took me an unreasonably long time and lots of failed attempts, and in the end, the only way I could find to make it work was to first physically remove the M.2, then install Windows, then add the M.2 back again. Which sucked a lot, because M.2s are really not optimized for easy or frequent installation and deinstallation.
I have no idea what you're talking about. I mean that in the sense that whatever you've used to install Windows, it must not be common knowledge or the default.
If you need special knowledge or access, I would call that "difficulty". So even though, after you had all your special knowledge or access, it was easy, acquiring those preconditions was hard.
I.e. it was difficult to install Windows overall.
You're in the Linux memes sub. Linux users are the ultimate example of special knowledge PC users....
Yes but the context of the post is overall difficulty. Of course if you're an expert in something, related things to that specialty will be easy for you. But we're talking about how hard something is for non-experts.
Again, you're in the Linux memes sub. Normie knowledge is getting you an enjoyable Linux experience no matter how you slice it. If we are talking about difficulty curve of installing an OS, you are already eliminating all the normies.
Not common knowledge to use Rufus?
What else do you use to create bootable flash drives?
He's talking about a debloated version of Windows. Of course it is simple to create installation media. But the comment I replied to insinuates that there's some simple installation package to not include all the windows bloat, spyware, data collection etc.
The default Windows install is easy, like the image shows.
-microsoft
Fedora takes 0 brain power to install.
Fedora has hands down the worst installer I've ever seen. Some distros don't have one, yes, some don't have a GUI one, yes, some require additional configuration afterwards, yes, but Fedora's is just confusing as hell for no good reason.
It's also the only distro I had sound issues (i.e. no sound at all) with ever, and the only one where an installation has straight up failed to a point it created an unbootable system.
tldr: I wanted to try Fedora and capitulated on install. Still enough brainpower for EndeavourOS btw.
I spent around an hour trying to understand how to use Fedora's manual partitioner. I think I just ended up partitioning it with gparted or cfdisk from a different system. Never had problems with manual partitioning on other distros' installers.
Stupid list leaves off the most popular linux install and puts that fringe one in.
Unbuntu?
Which one are you calling fringe? These are all popular distros, with the exception of maybe Gentoo but that's still very well known even if not that many people daily drive it. Also still makes sense in this context to include a well known distro that's also known for being relatively hard to install
Kubuntu is also super easy.
The difficulity of spelling difficulity is very difficulit.
Where’s Arch if you don’t RTFM? (I mean we’ve got 2 windows install modes there… only fair)
The windows one seems exaggerated until you try to set it up with a regular local account.
Setting up a scratch install VM is such a pain.
Yeah, setup win 10 install on qemu may need to jump some hoop, especually when you want to enable features like gpu pass through.
Although qemu may not be as easy as virtualbox/vmware, the performance is worth it.
Setting up a local user account only is easy. Shift+f10 to open command prompt and then run OOBE\BYPASSNRO and then you can run the setup with zero network requirements and zero account requirements.
That no longer works.
Tried it on my girlfriend's new gaming laptop about 4 months ago and it did nothing, so just went back to using my custom Rufus install.
With Rufus it doesn't even ask for a MS account, indeed.
I do it every day for work. You must be doing something wrong.
It's a simple command, kinda hard to mess up repeatedly.
It's probably something to do with which Windows edition is used. This was just a consumer grade laptop after all
I call bullshit. It only took me 3 hours to compile and install gentoo on my latest build and get proper desktop environment working. Granted I'm still tweaking the config files 4 years later, but it's perfect!
Isn't debloated windows just a regular windows install after running https://github.com/Sycnex/Windows10Debloater ? Is there more to it?
Hey! You missed nixos!
First time install for smb. Double the windows Bar.
Second time (if you backed up your config file)
No bar!
Debloated windows is very easy. Installs super fast and I don't even have to be there to push any buttons.
is there an installer edition that doesn't put you through the questionnaire for what level of bullshit they can trick you in to accepting?
Are you sure you're sure that your sure that you definitely aren't unsure about making an online account? Well here's the form for it anyway because you didn't remove all your network devices and use an edited install iso. And while we're at it, here's copilot, and a trial for office that you get billed for if you forget, and all your stuff is on onedrive securely stored for the safe perusal of relevant parties. Now please wait while we get things ready for you. You might think this unexplained loading screen is longer than the full time it takes to install most linux distros but we assure you important computery stuff is happening.
Of course there is. Windows gets used in professional settings.
You can setup a Windows Deployment Service where you can deploy Windows from a network boot with all the settings already incorporated.
The only thing you need to do is boot the computer from network and let it do its thing.
Afterwards you have a complete working setup with all the correct settings and updates and software already installed. With literally 1 minute of work.
try disabling/removing edges, then good luck installing any updates after that
Funny meme but let's be serious:
The steps to install Arch.
https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Installation_guide
The steps to install de bloated Windows:
Download Tiny Windows.
Use Rufus to make a boot USB. Click ok.
Mint is where it's at.
that windows install isn't the procedure m$ tells you to use though. the correct comparison to that IMO would be using one of the 4 or 5 easy arch installers.
that said I'd still use bazzite. now a real janky ass install would be fedora core os on an sbc, using emmc for boot but nvme for root.
If you want debloated Windows, you already aren't using the procedure Microsoft wants you to use. So why would you even care?
If you follow Microsoft's procedure, it takes less than 5 minutes to get a working setup.
Oh no, manually partitioning disks and chrooting? Someone call a computerologist.
post windows 7/early 10 versions, I would place it harder than arch. I had to go through a bunch of shit to get my mobo mount nvme drives to show up, then came the cursed hell of just clicking through all the setup questions where they make it sound like you have a choice, but you don't unless you do the custom install image bullshit aka the harder windows install on the chart.
Can you easily capture images in arch? As in for multiple distributions later? Or is it based around copying the partitions
Can you cook macaroni? Or is it based on boiling water?
All data is stored on partitions, so one way or another you copy them. Easiest way to copy them is to dd. Second easiest way is to mount rootfs and boot fs and do mksquashfs on them. Third way is to pack it to tarball like Gentoo does.
Unless you install Linux mint with multiple displays. Holy 1 sec flickering sideways displays Batman. I don’t remember what I did exactly to fix but probably single display until drivers are all installed.
Hobbyist here, in my opinion reading the manual or the wiki is easy, understanding it quickly is not. You can obvioulsy follow the instructions blindly and still succeed.
For the most part is very comprehensive but sometimes you are left alone to connect the dots which is very daunting when instructions get technical and you do not understand them.
In the end it felt like one of those half semester courses Universities try to cram in.
I set up a kiosk on a Linux Mint machine today. From blank, unformatted drive to fully deployed kiosk, it took less time than just installing a base install of win11.
How did you set up the kiosk? I've been looking for an alternative to Windows Kiosk mode on Linux for a while now.
Why is Debian more difficult than Fedora? I could understand older versions, but these days they fixed pretty much all the small annoyances. No need to use the "nonfree" iso, because that's integrated into the installer. And post install sudo works as expected out of the box. I'd say they should be equal.
What about Ubuntu?
It takes too long to listen to Lemmy users tell you why not to.
Alternatively, Tiny10
Is there any guide to install this Debloated Windows? 🤔
So far what I used is to use debloater script and also to disable that windows update service related stuff. Just wondering whether there is more unhinged part in it.
Also no custom rom android image? because technically it use older and customized linux kernel.
There's also Tiny 10 and Tiny 11, which take it even further. They're genuinely small, too, they did good work.
Ah the Tiny10 and Tiny11, never tried them before because I thought it can be buggy when windows update happen (heck even normal windows update can brick grub bootloader).
Maybe I will try to compare them against LTSC IoT just for
shit and gigglessake of performance different before M$ phase Win10 out.Well now there's also Windows 11 Enterprise IoT LTSC edition you can use
While I also have those Win 10 and 11 LTSC versions on my ventoy drive, I just wondering whether you can tweak further aside of uninstalling stuff through powershell and disabling services through registries because I just enjoy being superuser (questioning what is referred in this post image).
Yes I like collecting OS images and troubleshoot toolkit isos as Im being "IT Support" on my circles.
EDIT: I will read every comment on this post in case someone on comment have already elaborate further.
In that case you might be interested in Tiny 11 which someone else mentioned. Since you like collecting, you may also be interested in ReactOS and Zorin.
I'm not familiar with Mint and I only installed Fedora twice/on two baremetal PCs ... but how much easier can you go compared to Debian?
Is it like a cleaner UI or more preinstalled essentials?
if you are already using fedora I don't see any value in switching to debian or mint.
Im not using Fedora (nor Debian or Mint), I like my weeds to tumble & my susey to be open.
Also I ... wouldn't ask which distro is easer to install just to switch to that one bcs of that reason. Sounds redundant.
But with Proxmox (a hypervisor) for virtual machines Debian is my go-to (as with most users everywhere) and Im too lazy for templates so I install a few Debians from scratch now and then - and it takes like no time. So I was wandering if Mint just has less steps or some other friendliness tricks.
Man, seems hard for you guys to just choose English UK when installing windows...
Ничего не понял. Кого по УК посадили?
I said English UK but you're free to try it with any language that doesn't make Microsoft believe you're from the US or Canada, but I bet a European country would be best considering the amount of laws they have to prevent abuse by corporations compared to the rest of the world...
There is no way Gentoo is that low.
I want to buy a Framework laptop soon. I have the option to choose which Linux distro is best for me and load that on.
Any suggestions?
So by linux, you mean not every open OS? Can we add freebsd? Not the easiest but lots of users willing to help on a forum post.
I‘d place archinstall lower than mint 🤭
All these threads make me want to take the leap to Linux. My work laptop runs on Mint, but as for my home pc.. guess I'll still have to wait for more Proton development/compatibility. Last time I checked, part of the games I want to play soon (Remnant 2, Supervive, Legion TD 2, Morimens, Sengoku Dynasty, Ravenswatch and a few others) seem to require a little more experimentation than I'd like.
Don't get me wrong, as a modder of obscure Chinese games and at work, I'm all for experimenting. But for the 1h per day I can play, I'll wait until I'm quite sure I won't spend it tinkering around to get my current games to work.
But I sure hope it will be sooner than later!
I have heard of absolutely none of those games. Looking at protondb, it's a mixed bag of miscellaneous hassle. Supervive actually has a message that reads "wine, proton, and steam deck are not supported by this application". Legion TD seems like you have to pray to RNG-sus. Dynasty has no reports at all... For the issues people are having with some of these, aside from supervive just blocking wine entirely, it is indeed more janky tinkering than I could justify doing myself, let alone expecting anyone else to.
All these toxic community threads do is push me away from Linux before I become as insufferable as them.
Windows has its flaws, but at least it doesn't have an annoying fanbase.
I suppose its all relative, but I didn't find debloated windows to be much worse than anything else. I used microwin though, is that a different experience?
Windows 10 is easy to install... If everything goes well. And 2 out of 3 times in my experience, it doesn't.
Having installed both recently, Manjaro is slightly easier than Fedora (KDE spin), never tried to install Mint so I don't know if it's above or below that
I installed windows 11. It was a shit show. So many updates with a 6gb iso. Took forever.
you guys have to read the instructions for Arch?
I mean I touch on them sometimes to see what has been replaced or changed because linux moves pretty fast but the steps are not complicated or hard to remember.
LTSC is pretty easy to install. But it's still Windows.
Debian is not easy
Have you installed it recently? They fixed the common annoyances like missing nonfree drivers.
This is 100% true, but the chart inverts when you have a problem you're trying to fix.
Mint was super easy. I just had to scratch my head for two days trying to figure out why the keyboard didn't work after coming out of suspend. Had something to do with it being in a USB 3.0 port. Once I plugged it into a 2.0-port it worked.
The debate has never been so intense! It might not be the Year of the Linux Desktop, but that's certainly a great one
Lol it's not that hard. It's just a matter of what you are used to.
Isn't mint a downstream product of Ubuntu? I haven't paid attention to them since they were distributing images from a compromised WordPress site years ago 😂
Maybe I've been DDing Ubuntu for so long that I just couldn't be bothered to try another distro based on it. I want to try a rolling release distro, but I'm too old to distro hop. All I care about is a functional system anymore.
- the guy with a tiling window manager
Arch is probably easier to install than Debian nowadays.
No.
Debian takes a few clicks and you have a working desktop.
Archinstall exists which does something similar but with a TUI. I disagree that it's as easy as Debian's graphical installer but it is significantly easier than it used to be before archinstall existed.
i seriously do not understand what's up with some of you, why do you spell stuff like in "m$". The extra work to type it like this doesn't matter at all. It makes no difference, Microsoft will not shut down because you spelled their name as "micro$oft" on your lemmy post or something like that. why do you keep doing this, i don't understand.
It's literally one more keystrokes, and people who do it often in a phone probably have it autocomplete. This message took much longer to write than probably every single time the OP has written MS as M$.
If I were to take a guess, it's probably just a censorship joke. Censoring the word implies that it is inappropriate to say. Like when people say Fr*ench".
Nah, nothing to do with censorship.
More in the line of "Microsoft is a capitalist POS that only cares about money and doesn't cater to my niche specific needs." And they want to remind everyone every time they talk about Microsoft.
Yes, please stay away from Windows if you have such difficulties installing it.
Maybe, but Linux will fuck up that boot partition within a year and any non-techie will be screwed.
I took me 3 Fucking Days to install bloated Windows on a friend's Computer... This os is absolute SHIT...
How TF did that take three days?
User error(s)
Probably incompetence on my side... And it was 2h days and we talked about shit so...
Damn, maybe your friend should have installed it themselves.
Would have taken less time.