Gonna take the hit on this one: a Joe Rogan bro. You probably know what I’m talking about, but to be more clear: aggro “alpha male,” gym rat or has a weirdly intense workout routine, takes a bunch of supplements, ready to believe anything pitched as “they don’t want you to know this,” weird diets of meat, “edgy” humor that’s more nodding and agreeing with prejudices than being funny, etc. Oh and listens to Joe Rogan willingly.
There’s nothing toxic about working out and getting strong, taking supplements etc. As long as you’re not harming yourself or other people then I see nothing wrong with it.
Because it’s likely the first thing you notice and then you look for the harmful secondary traits.
Like a guy that has a really short fuse with himself. He might just have really high expectations for himself…… buuuuut once you notice that first trait, you keep your eyes out for the secondary ones, where he has a shorter fuse with others.
Because it's part of the mix of traits that that kind of group tends to have. It's not one of the toxic ones but its part of the ones used to identify them.
Without going too far down the slippery slope: stereotypes exist for a reason. Nissan driver? No insurance, late on car payment, dead-end job. Furry? Gay or bi, nerdy, works in IT or STEM. Boomer? Can't operate a computer to save their life, is angry and scared about electric cars and renewable energy, their house cost $30k and they don't realize why kids these days don't have one.
This one’s a pet peeve, especially if the person is with me. IMO it’s one of the simplest ways to discover your friend likely has zero game with people who aren’t paid to be nice to them.
ETA: In case you feel called out and are wondering
“What, so bartenders and waitstaff are totally off-limits?”
Of course not! You can shoot your shot, just try to keep it holstered until you’re (1) on even footing instead of a customer-host advantage and (2) aren’t cornering them in a place they must stay to make a living. For example, you could hold off until the bill is paid and/or they’re off the clock, then ask for digits on your way out (signaling you have no intention of bothering them further if there’s no interest) or give your number so the ball is fully in their court. Of course, if they shoot their shot first, rules of engagement are suspended. Mine did and she’s alright I guess. The above are her suggestions.
There are a lot of stereotypes in this thread, and some I've encountered, some I haven't. But I do know that there is an epidemic of loneliness among men, and it is very real and sometimes deadly.
That reminds me of a story, buddy and me fell overboard and when someone threw us a lifesaver he bet me I couldn't lap the boat before getting rescued. Long story short we did six laps and we're both dead now.
A friend of mine keeps doing this. He'll pretend to be an expert of fucking anything, and you can generally tell immediately that he doesn't know shit. When he goes on about things that I actually do know things about it's unbearable, and of course his ego is too fragile to handle being told he's wrong.
We have a lot of impressive common friends with awesome general knowledge, and I frequently wonder how the hell we have the patience to keep him around. My general knowledge is shite, but at least I'm quite open about being ignorant.
He's hyper sensitive about social situations, yet introducing him to new people is almost always embarrassing.
Perhaps unsurprisingly, he is a professional psychologist.
Thank god he is guaranteed to hate Jordan Peterson - he has redeeming qualities as well. But reading back my comment it's uncanny how much it sounds like him.
Yeah, it's an important and challenging job, and I have several friends who are psychologist.
It is, however, a bit of a stereotype that a lot of people who choose to become psychologists are often to some degree themselves viable clients. Perhaps wanting to understand themselves is a motivation to study it in the first place.
They can still do an amazing job, but I think a lot of psychologist find themselves in a Pagliacci situation where they can help anyone but themselves.
I have a friend like this but he's fortunately self aware enough to confess that he just like lecturing when you call him on something. It's almost endearing
In eighth grade I got into an argument on the bus, precursor to the Internet, with a kid about my ignorance of sex. He drew a picture of a diaphragm and ridiculed me for not knowing what it was.
Guy at work always starts saying sexist shit when no other women are around, maybe wanting to built camaraderie or something? Toxic masculinity is a myth. Women all want the bad boys. No thanks we can avoid the 1:1 convos from now on.
Not a guy, but the one that really gets me is willfully incompetence - particularly around household or family chores (and the mental load associated with them).
I work from home so I typically do the majority of the cleaning; I don’t mind because I’m a bit of a clean freak anyway.
What I found odd is when my wife’s family from Mexico were visiting she turned into a maid and would shoo me away from things like washing a single dish (for example).
Not sure if it was cultural or what but it definitely threw me off — I don’t want her family thinking I’m making her do everything all the time.
100% a cultural thing. Depending on what part of Mexico they're from, she may not want them to know that you do any chores. If a woman can't handle all of the chores herself, it's seen as a failing.
Super fucked up, but Latin America is in fact super fucked up.
Yeah, sorry but this one is just counterproductive. Guys just don't give a fuck. No one is going around "ooh, what if I pretend I can't do this task so she then has to do it". That's just patriarchy and gender roles for you. Maybe try to have a conversation about the subject of chores without sticking the "you're evil" tag on the other person. Well, for anything in life really. Also mental load is there for anyone, I see no point in bringing it up in this context. The dudes have to deal with a fair share of mental load as well, specially with all the emotional neglect and immaturity.
This is why I think weaponized incompetence is a better term than willful incompetence.
I don't think it's even always intentional, conscious, or willful. It's just, well, "not giving a fuck", and getting away with it because women are always around to deal with their shit.
Prepared to be roasted alive for this opinion but studies (undoubtedly of white, middle class, US undergrads) seem to indicate women find clutter and messes more psychologically distressing than men do.
I'm a man but I've had many deadbeat guys as roommates and I am definitely far more bothered by messes and clutter than they were so I kind of get this.
If you are the "mind it more" person, you will find yourself rage cleaning because the other person can wait you out as long as they want if they are taking you for granted and not concerned you'll leave over this.
So there are two toxic traits here:
A willingness to wait out chores even if you know it's angering people you are with.
A kind of willful blindness. "Honestly, I didn't think it was that bad."
The second one might be worse.
The first is excusable (plausible deniability) with the "men are oblivious" defense if the aggrieved party is not being overt in their request that a chore be done.
The second is a person (some women obviously do this, too) refusing to learn to empathize and recognize when things are getting to the point where it's bothering the other person. From an interpersonal perspective this is probably more infuriating over the years.
I think you have a point, and it is indeed something different - if two people live together and simply have different preferences or care about different things, it'll of course lead to some friction.
I think this goes both ways in most relationships. I keep bothering my girlfriend about the bathroom sink and the office desk we share; she complains about me keeping half dirty (half clean) clothes in a pile in the bedroom. That's not what it's about, though I think it can get easily confused.
It's more about the "I don't know how to use the washing machine/book bus tickets/change bags in the vacuum cleaner/cook a pie/change bedsheets/clean the toilet/make a vinegrette/change diapers/whatever", where instead of an emphasis on learning the skill it's only left to the other person.
It's not all men, but it is common. I think it's a systematic issue that men don't carry the full responsibility for. They're raised by mothers who do everything for them, and while their sisters are taught how to take care of themselves they are simply left to "be boys". And then they go out in the world and find a woman who can effectively replace their mothers.
It's the kind of guys who move away from home but keep going back to their mothers whenever they need laundry done.
I think the first trait is worse than the second. Waiting to do a chore knowing (1) it needs to be done, and (2) the other person will do it if you hold out long enough is such a jerk move. Although the second isn't awesome either. I think it is safe to say, don't do either of these things.
The second is a person TWO PEOPLE refusing to learn to empathize and recognize when things are getting to the point where it’s bothering the other person.
ftfy. I'm sick of society always thinking that men have to learn how to be cleaner. Maybe women should learn how to not freak out over a little mess sometimes.
The onus should not be 100% on men to change. It should be a compromise, and part of it is women learning to relax and undo the ingrained "everything must look perfect" toxic baggage that they have, just as much as men need to learn not to live in a pigsty just because mom isn't around to clean up after you.
Agree about it not always being explicitly thought about. Weaponed also seemed to imply some sort of thought to me, but I couldn't land on a good word.
2 former coworkers of mine who always the smartest person they know. One of em lives alone and you can tell he's never lost an argument (with himself in his head) and anytime he tries to back up his opinion it's always the same "it's dumb, it's stupid, it doesn't make sense it's not LoGiCaL". But anytime you try to chime in...he talks over you.
The other is one of those "I read both sides of the story so I know far far more than you"...who was a one of those reddit knowitalls.
Guys find themselves desperate to get laid, and that desperation comes across in all of their interactions with women, who don't like feeling that they're being treated like a vending machine, which leads to the guy being rejected for reasons that he doesn't entirely understand.
He gets in a relationship with someone, finally, and everything is great for a while. Then he realizes that women are talking and flirting with him more than they ever have before, and isn't sure why, but he enjoys it. He doesn't understand that, because he is in a relationship, he has stopped being desperate and weird, and is now actually having real conversations with women about mutually interesting topics.
Surrounded by women that are (seemingly) available, he either breaks up with his SO, asks for some sort of open arrangement, or tries to cheat. Unfortunately, for reasons that he still doesn't understand, as soon as he's available for sex, women start being turned off by him again (if not to quite the degree they were before) and, again, he finds it difficult to get laid.
From here, guys often fall into some incel-style evolutionary psychology explanation for things, regularly cheat on everyone that they're with, or gradually becomes aware of the pattern.
If they become aware of the pattern, they can begin to manage it and reduce the desperate, salesman vibe that they give off. As they become more confident and relaxed, it becomes clear to women that they're perfectly comfortable going home alone or just being friends, which allows them to have more meaningful relationships and, incidentally, more sex with people they like.
Anyway, thanks for coming to my TED Talk on the origin and mating behavior of the involuntarily celibate.
guys at work comlaining about their divorce to anyone entering an enclosed room. four different times when i was forced to work in an office and twice so far in slack. mother fucker i dont known you but i already get why she left. stop trying to force random people to be your therapist.
I've seen this, and what bothers me most is when you get that nasty feeling they're not looking for a therapist, but validation. Yeah, your ex-wife sucked, man. She was totally in the wrong about everything always, sorry you had to deal with her for so long. I'm sure you're in the clear and there's nothing you could be blamed for, it's easy to tell from this one-sided retelling of your personal conflicts.
When anyone's first topic of choice for casual conversation is how much their last partner was in the wrong, it's... difficult not to be dubious.
Not understanding boundaries and not having/setting them and respecting others'.
You don't owe shit to anyone and if they make you feel bad, they are often manipulating you. What you choose to do needs to be a hard yes from yourself otherwise its going through motions and can often be inauthentic which is inherently harmful to your sense and integrity of Self
People naturally test these limits and breach them all the time so it happens but you must train yourself to assert your will for yourself and how you respond to trespasses by setting those limits and then strongly upholding them when it comes time to address the opposing force, definitely for those who continue despite knowing the rules of the game you've set for yourself
to combine all 3 of the above, i worked with a joe rogan bro who would come up and show me a video of him having abusive sex with a hidden camera footage that the partner wasnt even aware of, to brag about his weekend conquest, then tell me how he stole her soul with surprise anal. then he dared me to show him something better next week.
I'm not sure why this is a thing more men do, but I can't agree more. Generally, I associate this kind of behavior with poor emotional intelligence so good advice for literally any kind of relationship with anyone.
That the most manly thing you can do is be intimidating. Big muscles, big car, loud car or bike, acting angry or tough. None of these things make you more of a man, in fact offten than not they make you look insecure and less of a man.
I think the most manly thing I do is wear pink, I recently got a custom make shirt,bright pink with a big honkin "I love cowboys" printed on the front. Teenage me would be cringing but my thought is, "if you're manly, you can handle the color pink"
Thought of another trait that is as toxic as it is annoying: apparently a man must outwardly show how attracted he is to "hot" women around him or he must be gay, and apparently that in itself is also implied to be a disappointment.
God, that's so weird. A boomer aged progressive will some times point out hot women to me. Not even in his age group. It really is just hard coded in that whole generation.
But then when he does it in front of his girlfriend, he's being unfaithful. But if he doesn't express interest in other women then his opinion on his partner's hotness doesn't matter because he must not be into women or he's not macho enough since macho people are supposed to ogle women.
God I'm glad I'm not closeted anymore...(I'm polyamorous, agender, and pansexual).
Yeah, I kind of agree. Toxic masculinity is a thing, but it doesn't mean all masculinity is automatically toxic.
Then again, usually when I'm hanging out with guys and the testosterone level runs a bit high, someone will crack a joke about it and we'll laugh at ourselves.
I think having a fragile ego and not being able to joke about yourself and/or your masculinity probably does make it on in the toxic list.
Off the top of my head: the guy I recently saw get out of his car in stopped traffic banging on another driver’s window screaming “you almost hit me motherfucker!”
I was sat there thinking “almost?” Not that it’s excusable in any case but imagine losing it because someone almost hit you. Mistakes happen bro, be happy nothing serious happened.
I think I misread your comment to mean that guys will treat other guys like villains to manipulate women. Where as I've seen women make things up about other women to make them seem less attractive to a guy.
Specifically I’m talking about a man will frame another man’s actions as dangerous or antisocial, so as to make her afraid, so as to enhance his own role as potential protector.
I think a woman could definitely do this too, just it would be a different kind of danger. Less physical and more social danger.
But death is way more permanent than shunning, so women’s instinctual fear of men (that the man might kill them) is probably deeper and riper for manipulation than men’s fear of women (that the woman might tell lies about him to reduce his social status).
An example that was on my mind was when I was driving through a parking lot the other day, I turned the corner at a perfectly normal speed. A man and woman were crossing the travel way, heading to an ice cream place. As soon as I saw them I stopped. Again normal speed, stopped like thirty feet from them from my already low speed.
But he reacted in a way that framed the whole thing with me as danger that he saved her from: he grabbed her hand, pulled her back a little, and in response to his motions she gasped and looked at me like I was a charging boar.
I said out loud “man I hate when dudes do that shit” and my passenger laughed and said “Gotta be that protector you know? Even if you gotta make it up”
In that situation it wasn’t really a cost to me because we were strangers passing in a city. But in a smaller more intimate community, I’d now be facing “dangerous guy” status, which is extremely hard to shake.
When i was around 16 and drove around with co workers, they always had to comment on women they saw on the street. Oh she's so hot. Look at her boobs. Ew she's ugly. They were super nice guys, but i always just sat there quietly thinking: maybe when i'm an adult i'll be like that and don't feel so awkward anymore. I'm always 40 now and still when i sit in a car with guys i don't really know, nothing has really changed. I still just roll my eyes and when i see a lady with big boobs, i hope no one else saw her. But they always do and have something extremely funny to say.
When we have female friends in common and suddenly it turns out they want to fuck her and they assume I'm only hanging out with her because I want to as well.
I have never had any men brag to me about their sexual encounters; generally the people I end up hanging out with don't make sexist comments about women in public or anything like that. But this bullshit I've experienced on numerous occasions.
I guess it's not really a "toxic trait" as much as "being toxic as fuck".
Micromanagement and the need to take credit for work other people do. Of all the incompetent bosses I've had over the years, micromanagers are the worst and all of the micromanagers for whom I've worked have been men.
It's like, dude, you hired me because I know more about doing this task than other people (including you). Stop hovering over me, when I need your input I'll come get you. Just let me fucking cook. I know what I'm talking about and what I'm going... you employ me specifically because I know what I'm talking about and what I'm doing.
I guess their thought process goes: if I'm not hovering over this person at all times, the company might figure out I don't know 100% of 100% of everything my employees do day to day... even though that's insane. What company would require a manager to know absolutely everything about how their employees do their jobs; a manager obviously shouldn't be completely in the dark about operations but also it's crazy to think they'd want them to be an expert on everything.
The need to always seem manly around other men...in particular the choice of music. Ride in the car with certain people, they always have to be blasting hard rock or rap, or hard country depending on your location.
Meanwhile I'm over here enjoying switching between pop, rock, new wave, alt and even my playlist of exclusively Elton John, Phil Collins, Peter Gabriel and Billy Joel
Friend, there's nothing wrong with enjoying extreme music. Its a bit weird when that's all someone cares about, but many people have a healthy obsession with extreme music and you shouldn't judge them for it.
In the engineering field and other technical realms you’ll often find an asshole coming out of their shell under the guise of superior life choices. They full delude themselves into believing other trades and interests are less than because they don’t benefit society in such a directly visible way.
I should know, I was brainwashed into the cult for a few years. It took seeing it go to the extreme before I snapped out of it and started respecting other career and life choices.
Thinking that just because they can fight that means they win any argument they're in.
My current boss is an ex mma fighter and does this literally all the time. You'll bring up a concern about something he's doing and he'll shut you down and if you persist he tries to intimidate you by reminding you of his size and fighting history.
To me, just that statement reads like collecting something, being proud of it, and wanting to start a conversation or find shared interest in it rather than some competition. Maybe I'm lacking context?
I guess it's bordering on being literal poison. Chilli peppers have evolved specifically to be inedible by mammals. So I guess being obsessed with hot sauce is not a toxic trait per se, but it's in the neighborhood.
More seriously though, I love spicy food, but not all food is supposed to be spicy. Leave other favours room to breathe as well.
So I think I know what you're talking about, but I don't think having hobbies is the issue here.
You do see this a lot when guys are talking and someone brings up a sort of niche hobby (tech, fan bases, something that requires a lot of knowledge)
Guys will all show interest but not want to be talked down to or mansplained to on a topic they're passionate about (yes ladies we experience it too)so they overcorrect and try to prove their knowledge real fast.
This sometimes leads to a sort of feedback loop where the other person thinks they're trying to one up them and tries to be the more knowledgeable one and on and on, I've seen so many guys do this, that's why I avoid talking about hobbies with IRL friends (looking at you RuneScape)
I guess the latter was my assumption. I, like you, have several in rotation. Usually 3-4 "super hots" from Puckerbutt, some interesting ones, a couple Asian-style options, a Louisiana style, and, during pepper season, a fermented style of my own creation.
But I just use them all the time on almost every meal. It would never really occur to me to bring them all out and put them on the table and be like, "behold, my collection," though I guess when I have people over and I cook/grill, I bring a few out and let people know the heat range if they want any. But that's kind of what you do with condiments, and no one would say "he's showing off his bbq condiment collection" if I brought out a few styles of bbq sauce.
I guess I just envisioned some guy with a room dedicated to his shelves of unopened hot sauce like those dudes that collect unopened toys. Lol
And there's this whole thing with correlation and causation.
In the midst of a million different other potential causes, they are identifying "masculine fragility" as the big contributor to depression? Not missing data points, not social media, not the momentum of societal change in the last 30y, not socioeconomic factors, potential comorbidities as contributors, increasingly inflammatory politics, globalization as a whole, ...
It's so dumb to single this out. Sure some people need more confidence, but being "more masculine" sounds like the worst plan ever to gain healthy confidence. If you have problems with your confidence there's usually other factors at play and the most efficient way to improve is to seek a therapist and sort your life or your brain out.
Same goes for dating by the way. A million factors that are potentially contributing to that one, and that's a two player game, so even more factors to consider.
This comment, hell this whole thread, is enormously insightful and productive. It feels like a genuine discussion of men's issues that isn't on the offensive as it often feels when masculinity is the topic. Thank you and all commenters like you who took the time to make a good point.
I agree with the effects you’re seeing but not the cause.
Women’s liberation changed how women are presented in society. It fundamentally changed what it means to be a woman.
Men never went through that. At the moment, we sorta can’t. If I were to create a “men’s liberation" group, it would quickly be taken over by Incels. Hard-core feminists would also stir up a fuss that this group was exclusionary to them. So we are kind of stuck.
Manhood needs to be redefined, because many of the classic male role definitions no longer apply. men can be sensitive where historically they've been expected to be stoic. Men can raise children when classically they have been breadwinners while the women raise children.
I think these are all great changes, but we haven't been able to redefine manhood in the same way that the feminists were able to redefine womanhood.
I don't have a good answer, we are somewhat handcuffed by the expectation to fulfil classic roles, along with new expectations to be more modern feminist-aware, sensitive men. The two are not compatible enough to make for a nice midpoint.
I don't know if we have to make a societal decision to change the definition of manhood. I think just by accepting that men can be sensitive, and don't have to be bread winners, more men will fill those roles (and not feel like they have to hide it). And as time goes on, the more men live like that, the more the definition of manhood will change in its own.
I'd argue that the definition of manhood is changing.
That men perform childcare tasks was unheard of two generations ago, especially with babies like changing diapers. You can be a man while maintaining a household when that was women's work before.
There are some good men's lib groups, but they take diligence so that they don't fall to the incels. The one on reddit was actually pretty decent (prob still is but I haven't checked in awhile), and there are a couple on lemmy but they're not really active
Losing your sense of self in response to criticism is one mark of a man who’s been failed by his upbringing. Mistakes aren’t flaws if you learn from them, and so an identity can only become fragile if it is too brittle to endure change.
Friend if that is your current experience with same sex relationships then maybe it might be time to branch out a little bit and start talking to new groups.
Ngl your current one, to me, sounds a little depressing
Gonna take the hit on this one: a Joe Rogan bro. You probably know what I’m talking about, but to be more clear: aggro “alpha male,” gym rat or has a weirdly intense workout routine, takes a bunch of supplements, ready to believe anything pitched as “they don’t want you to know this,” weird diets of meat, “edgy” humor that’s more nodding and agreeing with prejudices than being funny, etc. Oh and listens to Joe Rogan willingly.
There’s nothing toxic about working out and getting strong, taking supplements etc. As long as you’re not harming yourself or other people then I see nothing wrong with it.
I wish someone would call me their dearly beloved ham casserole.
My delicious Thai food.
Then why mention it?
Because it’s likely the first thing you notice and then you look for the harmful secondary traits.
Like a guy that has a really short fuse with himself. He might just have really high expectations for himself…… buuuuut once you notice that first trait, you keep your eyes out for the secondary ones, where he has a shorter fuse with others.
This guy takes care of himself ...better keep an eye on 'em.
Because it's part of the mix of traits that that kind of group tends to have. It's not one of the toxic ones but its part of the ones used to identify them.
It’s a stereotype. It’s designed for mental shortcuts. But then it also casts a much wider net than it ought to and ends up harming innocent people.
Someone thinking that you kind of look like a Joe Rogan bro until they get to know you is not what I would personally classify as harm.
Without going too far down the slippery slope: stereotypes exist for a reason. Nissan driver? No insurance, late on car payment, dead-end job. Furry? Gay or bi, nerdy, works in IT or STEM. Boomer? Can't operate a computer to save their life, is angry and scared about electric cars and renewable energy, their house cost $30k and they don't realize why kids these days don't have one.
There's outliers, sure, but...
Its a package deal with this personality type
It really isn’t. Lots of people who listen to Joe Rogan don’t work out. Lots of people who work out don’t listen to Joe Rogan.
I do neither, though I am planning to start working out to lose some body fat and try to strengthen my bad ankle.
whoosh.
The description wasn't "any one of the above", it was "all (or most) of the above".
She has done countless subsequent women a huge favour.
This one’s a pet peeve, especially if the person is with me. IMO it’s one of the simplest ways to discover your friend likely has zero game with people who aren’t paid to be nice to them.
ETA: In case you feel called out and are wondering “What, so bartenders and waitstaff are totally off-limits?”
Of course not! You can shoot your shot, just try to keep it holstered until you’re (1) on even footing instead of a customer-host advantage and (2) aren’t cornering them in a place they must stay to make a living. For example, you could hold off until the bill is paid and/or they’re off the clock, then ask for digits on your way out (signaling you have no intention of bothering them further if there’s no interest) or give your number so the ball is fully in their court. Of course, if they shoot their shot first, rules of engagement are suspended. Mine did and she’s alright I guess. The above are her suggestions.
Honestly, not checking in on each other.
There are a lot of stereotypes in this thread, and some I've encountered, some I haven't. But I do know that there is an epidemic of loneliness among men, and it is very real and sometimes deadly.
Damn, this needs to be at the top.
Agreed even just sending a stupid meme or a joke shows you were thinking of them and can be a lighthearted convo starter.
The need to make everything into a competition or to one-up any story or anecdote.
I know plenty of women who do the same
Case in point.
Were talking about the fellas, why even bring this up besides as some weird defensive thing?
I'd say because if we're trying to find things unique to guys it's relevant to point out when it isn't unique.
That's the joke.
I hope.
Well, men do it better
I know more jk
That’s nothing!
Ever seen a group of guys stuck in a terminal one-downsmanship spiral of mutual unaccountability?
It’s epic bro. Totally blows the doors off your example.
That reminds me of a story, buddy and me fell overboard and when someone threw us a lifesaver he bet me I couldn't lap the boat before getting rescued. Long story short we did six laps and we're both dead now.
Oh yeah?? Well, when I fall overboard, I drown! (Because I can't swim)
Ngl that's pretty hardcore
Making fun of people for admitting they don't know things.
https://xkcd.com/1053/
I wish more guys just said they didn't know something instead of clearly not knowing what they're talking about and running their mouth based on vibes
A friend of mine keeps doing this. He'll pretend to be an expert of fucking anything, and you can generally tell immediately that he doesn't know shit. When he goes on about things that I actually do know things about it's unbearable, and of course his ego is too fragile to handle being told he's wrong.
We have a lot of impressive common friends with awesome general knowledge, and I frequently wonder how the hell we have the patience to keep him around. My general knowledge is shite, but at least I'm quite open about being ignorant.
He's hyper sensitive about social situations, yet introducing him to new people is almost always embarrassing.
Perhaps unsurprisingly, he is a professional psychologist.
Your friend is Jordan Peterson
Thank god he is guaranteed to hate Jordan Peterson - he has redeeming qualities as well. But reading back my comment it's uncanny how much it sounds like him.
I know one of these. He's extremely insecure and has other issues but he will talk about ANYTHING as if he were an expert
Wait what's wrong with psychologists? I respect them for not killing themselves from having to deal with other people's psychological problems.
Yeah, it's an important and challenging job, and I have several friends who are psychologist.
It is, however, a bit of a stereotype that a lot of people who choose to become psychologists are often to some degree themselves viable clients. Perhaps wanting to understand themselves is a motivation to study it in the first place.
They can still do an amazing job, but I think a lot of psychologist find themselves in a Pagliacci situation where they can help anyone but themselves.
I have a friend like this but he's fortunately self aware enough to confess that he just like lecturing when you call him on something. It's almost endearing
In eighth grade I got into an argument on the bus, precursor to the Internet, with a kid about my ignorance of sex. He drew a picture of a diaphragm and ridiculed me for not knowing what it was.
Bragging about sexual conquests.
If I wanted to know about your sex life I’d ask for your Only Fans.
O Hai, how is your sexlyfe?!
Oh hi, Mark.
It has to be
Hailol. Nothing else conveys the Wiseau-nessYeah I hear that.
Do you know about life????
Guy at work always starts saying sexist shit when no other women are around, maybe wanting to built camaraderie or something? Toxic masculinity is a myth. Women all want the bad boys. No thanks we can avoid the 1:1 convos from now on.
Ugh.
If you consciously change your behaviour once there's no women around... Yeah, chances are you won't see me again unless I'm absolutely forced to.
It's like some people think they're contractually obliged to make a sexist joke or some shit. Thankfully I don't meet these people often.
I misread that as sexiest shit at first and was super confused. "Damn they must be working with some gay ass motherfuckers."
Not a guy, but the one that really gets me is willfully incompetence - particularly around household or family chores (and the mental load associated with them).
It’s called “brokedishing” and choosing the right dish to break is an art form.
Damn, that’s way catchier than weaponized incompetence.
I work from home so I typically do the majority of the cleaning; I don’t mind because I’m a bit of a clean freak anyway.
What I found odd is when my wife’s family from Mexico were visiting she turned into a maid and would shoo me away from things like washing a single dish (for example).
Not sure if it was cultural or what but it definitely threw me off — I don’t want her family thinking I’m making her do everything all the time.
100% a cultural thing. Depending on what part of Mexico they're from, she may not want them to know that you do any chores. If a woman can't handle all of the chores herself, it's seen as a failing.
Super fucked up, but Latin America is in fact super fucked up.
Oh, that's interesting. Could be a family thing. Could also be just a good host thing.
Yeah, sorry but this one is just counterproductive. Guys just don't give a fuck. No one is going around "ooh, what if I pretend I can't do this task so she then has to do it". That's just patriarchy and gender roles for you. Maybe try to have a conversation about the subject of chores without sticking the "you're evil" tag on the other person. Well, for anything in life really. Also mental load is there for anyone, I see no point in bringing it up in this context. The dudes have to deal with a fair share of mental load as well, specially with all the emotional neglect and immaturity.
"Guys don't give a fuck."
That's it. That's the toxic trait right there.
This is why I think weaponized incompetence is a better term than willful incompetence.
I don't think it's even always intentional, conscious, or willful. It's just, well, "not giving a fuck", and getting away with it because women are always around to deal with their shit.
Prepared to be roasted alive for this opinion but studies (undoubtedly of white, middle class, US undergrads) seem to indicate women find clutter and messes more psychologically distressing than men do.
I'm a man but I've had many deadbeat guys as roommates and I am definitely far more bothered by messes and clutter than they were so I kind of get this.
If you are the "mind it more" person, you will find yourself rage cleaning because the other person can wait you out as long as they want if they are taking you for granted and not concerned you'll leave over this.
So there are two toxic traits here:
A willingness to wait out chores even if you know it's angering people you are with.
A kind of willful blindness. "Honestly, I didn't think it was that bad."
The second one might be worse.
The first is excusable (plausible deniability) with the "men are oblivious" defense if the aggrieved party is not being overt in their request that a chore be done.
The second is a person (some women obviously do this, too) refusing to learn to empathize and recognize when things are getting to the point where it's bothering the other person. From an interpersonal perspective this is probably more infuriating over the years.
I think you have a point, and it is indeed something different - if two people live together and simply have different preferences or care about different things, it'll of course lead to some friction.
I think this goes both ways in most relationships. I keep bothering my girlfriend about the bathroom sink and the office desk we share; she complains about me keeping half dirty (half clean) clothes in a pile in the bedroom. That's not what it's about, though I think it can get easily confused.
It's more about the "I don't know how to use the washing machine/book bus tickets/change bags in the vacuum cleaner/cook a pie/change bedsheets/clean the toilet/make a vinegrette/change diapers/whatever", where instead of an emphasis on learning the skill it's only left to the other person.
It's not all men, but it is common. I think it's a systematic issue that men don't carry the full responsibility for. They're raised by mothers who do everything for them, and while their sisters are taught how to take care of themselves they are simply left to "be boys". And then they go out in the world and find a woman who can effectively replace their mothers.
It's the kind of guys who move away from home but keep going back to their mothers whenever they need laundry done.
I think the first trait is worse than the second. Waiting to do a chore knowing (1) it needs to be done, and (2) the other person will do it if you hold out long enough is such a jerk move. Although the second isn't awesome either. I think it is safe to say, don't do either of these things.
ftfy. I'm sick of society always thinking that men have to learn how to be cleaner. Maybe women should learn how to not freak out over a little mess sometimes.
The onus should not be 100% on men to change. It should be a compromise, and part of it is women learning to relax and undo the ingrained "everything must look perfect" toxic baggage that they have, just as much as men need to learn not to live in a pigsty just because mom isn't around to clean up after you.
Agree about it not always being explicitly thought about. Weaponed also seemed to imply some sort of thought to me, but I couldn't land on a good word.
I worry you may be misinterpreting the phrase in its particular context, and I'd hate to see that happen.
Kudos for weaving in the toxic trait of infantilizing women.
What in the Sam Hill …
Needing to be not just right but the most right person in the room about everything
2 former coworkers of mine who always the smartest person they know. One of em lives alone and you can tell he's never lost an argument (with himself in his head) and anytime he tries to back up his opinion it's always the same "it's dumb, it's stupid, it doesn't make sense it's not LoGiCaL". But anytime you try to chime in...he talks over you.
The other is one of those "I read both sides of the story so I know far far more than you"...who was a one of those reddit knowitalls.
There can only be one
I have a coworker who is walking checklist of toxic traits and red flags. Here are the highlights:
LMAO Bluetooth speaker on wheels.
wtf @ the bluetooth wheelie
ಠ_ಠ
Naturally, you are the one and true Bag of Chips
Factory standard self-centered douchebag™
This is a pattern I've seen repeatedly.
Guys find themselves desperate to get laid, and that desperation comes across in all of their interactions with women, who don't like feeling that they're being treated like a vending machine, which leads to the guy being rejected for reasons that he doesn't entirely understand.
He gets in a relationship with someone, finally, and everything is great for a while. Then he realizes that women are talking and flirting with him more than they ever have before, and isn't sure why, but he enjoys it. He doesn't understand that, because he is in a relationship, he has stopped being desperate and weird, and is now actually having real conversations with women about mutually interesting topics.
Surrounded by women that are (seemingly) available, he either breaks up with his SO, asks for some sort of open arrangement, or tries to cheat. Unfortunately, for reasons that he still doesn't understand, as soon as he's available for sex, women start being turned off by him again (if not to quite the degree they were before) and, again, he finds it difficult to get laid.
From here, guys often fall into some incel-style evolutionary psychology explanation for things, regularly cheat on everyone that they're with, or gradually becomes aware of the pattern.
If they become aware of the pattern, they can begin to manage it and reduce the desperate, salesman vibe that they give off. As they become more confident and relaxed, it becomes clear to women that they're perfectly comfortable going home alone or just being friends, which allows them to have more meaningful relationships and, incidentally, more sex with people they like.
Anyway, thanks for coming to my TED Talk on the origin and mating behavior of the involuntarily celibate.
Problem # 2,846 that would be solved if everyone wasn't so hung up on monogamy
With polyamory, Brokeback Mountain is a light hearted comedy about some queer friends who like to escape to the woods sometimes.
I think you're confusing incels with dudebros
An egocentric attitude, like they're the main character. Super fucking annoying.
guys at work comlaining about their divorce to anyone entering an enclosed room. four different times when i was forced to work in an office and twice so far in slack. mother fucker i dont known you but i already get why she left. stop trying to force random people to be your therapist.
I've seen this, and what bothers me most is when you get that nasty feeling they're not looking for a therapist, but validation. Yeah, your ex-wife sucked, man. She was totally in the wrong about everything always, sorry you had to deal with her for so long. I'm sure you're in the clear and there's nothing you could be blamed for, it's easy to tell from this one-sided retelling of your personal conflicts.
When anyone's first topic of choice for casual conversation is how much their last partner was in the wrong, it's... difficult not to be dubious.
Standard guy who can’t fathom the idea of changing or self-improvement. He’s never the problem.
Constantly questioning other men's sexuality.
Bro its 2024, MIND YOUR DAMN BUISNESS.
Being afraid to ask for help, and general pride issues.
My uncle who asks which peloton instructors I like informing me that he only picks the hot ones.
Like, you’ve been married to a woman for 30 years. I get it, you’re straight.
Just wish they wouldn't have to shove it down our throats all the time
Not really exclusive to men; women thirsting after hot fitness instructors is a whole trope
Not understanding boundaries and not having/setting them and respecting others'.
You don't owe shit to anyone and if they make you feel bad, they are often manipulating you. What you choose to do needs to be a hard yes from yourself otherwise its going through motions and can often be inauthentic which is inherently harmful to your sense and integrity of Self
People naturally test these limits and breach them all the time so it happens but you must train yourself to assert your will for yourself and how you respond to trespasses by setting those limits and then strongly upholding them when it comes time to address the opposing force, definitely for those who continue despite knowing the rules of the game you've set for yourself
to combine all 3 of the above, i worked with a joe rogan bro who would come up and show me a video of him having abusive sex with a hidden camera footage that the partner wasnt even aware of, to brag about his weekend conquest, then tell me how he stole her soul with surprise anal. then he dared me to show him something better next week.
Wat, people that ridiculous exist?
Satire probably
No I can confirm guys like this exist
I'm not sure why this is a thing more men do, but I can't agree more. Generally, I associate this kind of behavior with poor emotional intelligence so good advice for literally any kind of relationship with anyone.
The only emotion men are allowed to express is anger. Being angry all the time is extra manly.
And if you're not being angry, being an emotionless robot is also super manly
That the most manly thing you can do is be intimidating. Big muscles, big car, loud car or bike, acting angry or tough. None of these things make you more of a man, in fact offten than not they make you look insecure and less of a man.
I think the most manly thing I do is wear pink, I recently got a custom make shirt,bright pink with a big honkin "I love cowboys" printed on the front. Teenage me would be cringing but my thought is, "if you're manly, you can handle the color pink"
Side note is old ladies love it
They definitely want to talk to you about your favorite Western romance series, just fyi
I mean my girlfriends super into that stuff, so I wouldn't be too surprised
Learn from the best
Thought of another trait that is as toxic as it is annoying: apparently a man must outwardly show how attracted he is to "hot" women around him or he must be gay, and apparently that in itself is also implied to be a disappointment.
God, that's so weird. A boomer aged progressive will some times point out hot women to me. Not even in his age group. It really is just hard coded in that whole generation.
But then when he does it in front of his girlfriend, he's being unfaithful. But if he doesn't express interest in other women then his opinion on his partner's hotness doesn't matter because he must not be into women or he's not macho enough since macho people are supposed to ogle women.
God I'm glad I'm not closeted anymore...(I'm polyamorous, agender, and pansexual).
Being creepy to women. Or worse than creepy
Or masochism, supporting Andrew Tate; those things are usually related.
Did you mean misogyny?
Yep, sorry.
No worries. I feel like you probably do have to be a masochist to consume Tate media of any type, so it still works.
Define badass because I'm a very stoic person outside of my job and people always call me a hard ass and I don't know how to feel about it.
Ah good then I'm no longer worried that people are insulting me.
Turning every minor thing into a competition.
Even conversations.
Seeing regular masculinity as toxic. Just out right judging people for not being more feminine and doing normal guy stuff.
Like bunch of guys joking around having fun. "Oh that's toxic masculinity.
Yeah, I kind of agree. Toxic masculinity is a thing, but it doesn't mean all masculinity is automatically toxic.
Then again, usually when I'm hanging out with guys and the testosterone level runs a bit high, someone will crack a joke about it and we'll laugh at ourselves.
I think having a fragile ego and not being able to joke about yourself and/or your masculinity probably does make it on in the toxic list.
Most of the people I work with these days have fragile egos. It’s a big problem.
The inability to admit that they're wrong.
Dudes that nitpick jokes.
meta
I feel like I am missing a joke here
Off the top of my head: the guy I recently saw get out of his car in stopped traffic banging on another driver’s window screaming “you almost hit me motherfucker!”
I was sat there thinking “almost?” Not that it’s excusable in any case but imagine losing it because someone almost hit you. Mistakes happen bro, be happy nothing serious happened.
I guess it depends on how stupid the almost is Where I live most people can't drive well at all and honestly I wish someone would do this
The only issue is most people also have guns where I live
Bullying.
Sometimes other guys paint you as the villain so they can get laid.
For a chance, no guarantee they actually score
I don't think that's exclusive to men.
The protector dynamic isn’t really the same in the other direction
I think I misread your comment to mean that guys will treat other guys like villains to manipulate women. Where as I've seen women make things up about other women to make them seem less attractive to a guy.
Specifically I’m talking about a man will frame another man’s actions as dangerous or antisocial, so as to make her afraid, so as to enhance his own role as potential protector.
I think a woman could definitely do this too, just it would be a different kind of danger. Less physical and more social danger.
But death is way more permanent than shunning, so women’s instinctual fear of men (that the man might kill them) is probably deeper and riper for manipulation than men’s fear of women (that the woman might tell lies about him to reduce his social status).
An example that was on my mind was when I was driving through a parking lot the other day, I turned the corner at a perfectly normal speed. A man and woman were crossing the travel way, heading to an ice cream place. As soon as I saw them I stopped. Again normal speed, stopped like thirty feet from them from my already low speed.
But he reacted in a way that framed the whole thing with me as danger that he saved her from: he grabbed her hand, pulled her back a little, and in response to his motions she gasped and looked at me like I was a charging boar.
I said out loud “man I hate when dudes do that shit” and my passenger laughed and said “Gotta be that protector you know? Even if you gotta make it up”
In that situation it wasn’t really a cost to me because we were strangers passing in a city. But in a smaller more intimate community, I’d now be facing “dangerous guy” status, which is extremely hard to shake.
When i was around 16 and drove around with co workers, they always had to comment on women they saw on the street. Oh she's so hot. Look at her boobs. Ew she's ugly. They were super nice guys, but i always just sat there quietly thinking: maybe when i'm an adult i'll be like that and don't feel so awkward anymore. I'm always 40 now and still when i sit in a car with guys i don't really know, nothing has really changed. I still just roll my eyes and when i see a lady with big boobs, i hope no one else saw her. But they always do and have something extremely funny to say.
The inability to accept/ ask for help.
Because then they're told they're weak...
The prideful tough guy front masking all emotion (besides anger) was enough reason for me to leave an all-male facility.
When we have female friends in common and suddenly it turns out they want to fuck her and they assume I'm only hanging out with her because I want to as well.
I have never had any men brag to me about their sexual encounters; generally the people I end up hanging out with don't make sexist comments about women in public or anything like that. But this bullshit I've experienced on numerous occasions.
I guess it's not really a "toxic trait" as much as "being toxic as fuck".
Micromanagement and the need to take credit for work other people do. Of all the incompetent bosses I've had over the years, micromanagers are the worst and all of the micromanagers for whom I've worked have been men.
It's like, dude, you hired me because I know more about doing this task than other people (including you). Stop hovering over me, when I need your input I'll come get you. Just let me fucking cook. I know what I'm talking about and what I'm going... you employ me specifically because I know what I'm talking about and what I'm doing.
I guess their thought process goes: if I'm not hovering over this person at all times, the company might figure out I don't know 100% of 100% of everything my employees do day to day... even though that's insane. What company would require a manager to know absolutely everything about how their employees do their jobs; a manager obviously shouldn't be completely in the dark about operations but also it's crazy to think they'd want them to be an expert on everything.
Not letting their girlfriends hang out with other guys.
Huge red flag right there
A cognitive bias with a reification fallacy in common speech. "Scientists say...", "Everyone believes...", " All of Lemmy knows..."...
The need to always seem manly around other men...in particular the choice of music. Ride in the car with certain people, they always have to be blasting hard rock or rap, or hard country depending on your location.
Meanwhile I'm over here enjoying switching between pop, rock, new wave, alt and even my playlist of exclusively Elton John, Phil Collins, Peter Gabriel and Billy Joel
Friend, there's nothing wrong with enjoying extreme music. Its a bit weird when that's all someone cares about, but many people have a healthy obsession with extreme music and you shouldn't judge them for it.
what is hard country
Not just guys, but mainly.
In the engineering field and other technical realms you’ll often find an asshole coming out of their shell under the guise of superior life choices. They full delude themselves into believing other trades and interests are less than because they don’t benefit society in such a directly visible way.
I should know, I was brainwashed into the cult for a few years. It took seeing it go to the extreme before I snapped out of it and started respecting other career and life choices.
Thinking that just because they can fight that means they win any argument they're in.
My current boss is an ex mma fighter and does this literally all the time. You'll bring up a concern about something he's doing and he'll shut you down and if you persist he tries to intimidate you by reminding you of his size and fighting history.
"Check out my hotsauce collection!" or otherwise making mundane things into competitions.
To me, just that statement reads like collecting something, being proud of it, and wanting to start a conversation or find shared interest in it rather than some competition. Maybe I'm lacking context?
.........ok, I've never considered hot sauce as something to collect.
But I DO collect amiibo. And if I owned my own house you can bet there would be a whole room where I display them.
Whats wrong with feeling proud of your collecting habbits?
Filthy habbitses...
But it make food taste better.
I guess it's bordering on being literal poison. Chilli peppers have evolved specifically to be inedible by mammals. So I guess being obsessed with hot sauce is not a toxic trait per se, but it's in the neighborhood.
More seriously though, I love spicy food, but not all food is supposed to be spicy. Leave other favours room to breathe as well.
What? You don't like spicy apple pie? Or spicy ice cream???
.........I think I may have just created a monster.
*rabbits
So I think I know what you're talking about, but I don't think having hobbies is the issue here.
You do see this a lot when guys are talking and someone brings up a sort of niche hobby (tech, fan bases, something that requires a lot of knowledge)
Guys will all show interest but not want to be talked down to or mansplained to on a topic they're passionate about (yes ladies we experience it too)so they overcorrect and try to prove their knowledge real fast.
This sometimes leads to a sort of feedback loop where the other person thinks they're trying to one up them and tries to be the more knowledgeable one and on and on, I've seen so many guys do this, that's why I avoid talking about hobbies with IRL friends (looking at you RuneScape)
Feeling slightly attacked, I’m big on the hot sauce but are people making this competitive? I don’t understand, is hot sauce rare in some places?
If you use hot sauce so slowly you can keep a collection going, you're doing it wrong.
I’m picky about which hot sauce goes with which foods, so I have a ton of hot sauces “in use” in my refrigerator at any given time.
Using them almost constantly, I don’t feel I’m doing it wrong.
But maybe I’m misunderstanding “collection” — would this be a ton of unopened bottles kept somewhere?
I guess the latter was my assumption. I, like you, have several in rotation. Usually 3-4 "super hots" from Puckerbutt, some interesting ones, a couple Asian-style options, a Louisiana style, and, during pepper season, a fermented style of my own creation.
But I just use them all the time on almost every meal. It would never really occur to me to bring them all out and put them on the table and be like, "behold, my collection," though I guess when I have people over and I cook/grill, I bring a few out and let people know the heat range if they want any. But that's kind of what you do with condiments, and no one would say "he's showing off his bbq condiment collection" if I brought out a few styles of bbq sauce.
I guess I just envisioned some guy with a room dedicated to his shelves of unopened hot sauce like those dudes that collect unopened toys. Lol
Men were just as depressed before, the only difference is now we admit to it.
And there's this whole thing with correlation and causation.
In the midst of a million different other potential causes, they are identifying "masculine fragility" as the big contributor to depression? Not missing data points, not social media, not the momentum of societal change in the last 30y, not socioeconomic factors, potential comorbidities as contributors, increasingly inflammatory politics, globalization as a whole, ...
It's so dumb to single this out. Sure some people need more confidence, but being "more masculine" sounds like the worst plan ever to gain healthy confidence. If you have problems with your confidence there's usually other factors at play and the most efficient way to improve is to seek a therapist and sort your life or your brain out.
Same goes for dating by the way. A million factors that are potentially contributing to that one, and that's a two player game, so even more factors to consider.
Agreed. Normally I just upvote, but your post deserves more
This comment, hell this whole thread, is enormously insightful and productive. It feels like a genuine discussion of men's issues that isn't on the offensive as it often feels when masculinity is the topic. Thank you and all commenters like you who took the time to make a good point.
Who is "they"
I agree with the effects you’re seeing but not the cause.
Women’s liberation changed how women are presented in society. It fundamentally changed what it means to be a woman.
Men never went through that. At the moment, we sorta can’t. If I were to create a “men’s liberation" group, it would quickly be taken over by Incels. Hard-core feminists would also stir up a fuss that this group was exclusionary to them. So we are kind of stuck.
Manhood needs to be redefined, because many of the classic male role definitions no longer apply. men can be sensitive where historically they've been expected to be stoic. Men can raise children when classically they have been breadwinners while the women raise children.
I think these are all great changes, but we haven't been able to redefine manhood in the same way that the feminists were able to redefine womanhood.
I don't have a good answer, we are somewhat handcuffed by the expectation to fulfil classic roles, along with new expectations to be more modern feminist-aware, sensitive men. The two are not compatible enough to make for a nice midpoint.
I don't know if we have to make a societal decision to change the definition of manhood. I think just by accepting that men can be sensitive, and don't have to be bread winners, more men will fill those roles (and not feel like they have to hide it). And as time goes on, the more men live like that, the more the definition of manhood will change in its own.
I'd argue that the definition of manhood is changing.
That men perform childcare tasks was unheard of two generations ago, especially with babies like changing diapers. You can be a man while maintaining a household when that was women's work before.
We need to free ourselves from the shackles of roles-past.
That’s what feminism did.
So what if I’m not the breadwinner?
So what if I cry at sappy moments in movies?
So what if I need validation for my feelings?
Society is still okay with pushing this onto men, and it needs a moment of unity to say “this does not define me as a man”
There are some good men's lib groups, but they take diligence so that they don't fall to the incels. The one on reddit was actually pretty decent (prob still is but I haven't checked in awhile), and there are a couple on lemmy but they're not really active
I’ve yet to see any decent ones
I just checked the reddit one briefly and it still looked OK
https://old.reddit.com/r/MensLib/
Losing your sense of self in response to criticism is one mark of a man who’s been failed by his upbringing. Mistakes aren’t flaws if you learn from them, and so an identity can only become fragile if it is too brittle to endure change.
Friend if that is your current experience with same sex relationships then maybe it might be time to branch out a little bit and start talking to new groups.
Ngl your current one, to me, sounds a little depressing
No one is forcing men to be more fragile.
It’s true in some circles.