On one hand, you have people who are mostly comfortable with letting Palestinians die. On the other, people who openly talk about nuking them.
You have a group of people who may be willing to throw minorities under the bus. And you have another group that is waiting for the opportunity to do so and make it law.
Both choices are terrible, I agree, but there is one that is a clear better over the other. It sucks, but you have to accept that it's the way it is for now and you are not going to pull some third party out of your ass. That is going to have to wait for now. You have to make a decision between the lesser of two evils.
I'm counting on you, Americans. As a trans woman from a European country which political climate is heavily influenced by yours, I can quite confidently say that my rights are in your hands.
Quite frankly, I can't think of a more terrifying thought, but it is what it is.
I know as Americans we consider ourselves the center of the universe but this is one of those things that warrant it.
With Trump's last win we saw Argentina, Belarus, Brazil, Philippines, Australia, and Italy (just naming a few) in power crazy nut jobs. Attacking your community, immigrants, and the poor bc the US had someone spouting shit daily and being racist/anti immigrant was openly supported. It is like a virus, it spreads.
I hope we crush is attempt to be president again but you never know. We need the young people and millennials to vote. It's hard though.
Stay safe and I hope we have a bright future to look forward too.
I know as Americans we consider ourselves the center of the universe but this is one of those things that warrant it.
With Trump’s last win we saw Argentina, Belarus, Brazil, Philippines, Australia, and Italy (just naming a few) in power crazy nut jobs.
If you argument is that US presidents set global trends than see exhibit a) Palestinians for the future of how the U.S. and other western countries will treat their citizens and how institutional power will utterly deny it the entire time.
If Biden does not stop this genocide now a new era of violence is being normalized and in conjunction with climate change destroying food security and access to clean water it is going to be very very dark.
If Biden does not budge on Palestine even though there is a strong and clear signal from the American people to do so than we have already lost and people upset at me for not not voting for Biden (if he continues to refuse to budge) are yelling into the void.
If Biden does not budge on Palestine even though there is a strong and clear signal from the American people to do so than we have already lost and people upset at me for not not voting for Biden (if he continues to refuse to budge) are yelling into the void.
I agree we have a lot of issues but we can fix them if we decide to. I could agree that the Vietnam war / civil rights period was worse. We pulled ourselves out of that but we failed to learn from it. People got complainant and money started to flow so everyone accepted it.
By not voting we will see something worse. The Republicans have said multiple times they want to wipe the Palestinians off the earth. They want Russia to succeed in Ukraine. Civil rights wiped away. The environment set on fire. That is a lot worse than now.
Putting our hands up and saying nothing can be done is a farce. By doing nothing we are complicit. Vite like people's lives are on the line bc they are. Next election vote for a local candidate with more "extreme"(national healthcare , universal schooling, climate protection plans...etc) views. That is how you change stuff. You keep doing that until the top is like the bottom.
Next election vote for a local candidate with more "extreme"(national healthcare , universal schooling, climate protection plans...etc) views. That is how you change stuff.
If Biden does not stop this genocide now a new era of violence is being normalized and in conjunction with climate change destroying food security and access to clean water it is going to be very very dark.
Are you worried about Biden winning? This is not even a question. Understand everything you wrote there is 1000x worse under trump. The things you're talking about fixing can only happen under Biden.
Seriously, it's no joke that it's exactly the same message as russian propaganda to say 'biden loves genocide, don't vote'. If anyone thinks that's actually the path to a better tomorrow they're useful idiots.
I dunno it seems pretty much the same as the old era of violence to me, where Israel was still occupying the region and still doing a genocide and a million Iraqis died in a meaningless war for oil rights to avoid gas prices climbing by 5 bucks
No matter who wins this November, Palestinians are still going to suffer from this genocide, because neither side is going to stop Israel. It’s not going to be better or worse with Trump, because those people are still going to be dead, and the only difference is how long they have to suffer before they die. Arguing over which death is more humane is shockingly immoral of us.
As Americans, we don’t get to absolve ourselves from that guilt by voting for Biden. We’re directly responsible for allowing our nation to come to the point where this is our only choices. Israel may be dropping the bombs, but it’s America that’s killing them. We’re voting for the lesser evil, but evil is still evil, it’s all the same, and you and I, and every other American, are guilty as hell for it. We’re all mass murderers, and we’re all sleeping soundly at night.
It's not going to be better or worse with the guy who wants them to 'finish the job' and famously broke with even usual conservative orthodoxy to support Israeli genocide?
Whether it’s the guy who wants them to kill every Palestinian, or the guy who is gonna sit there and let them kill every Palestinian while wringing his hands and reaffirming the unconditional support for Israel, the Palestinians are still dead and murdered. The fact that you’re arguing that one side is better is absolutely fucking absurd.
In what realm is 1 billion dollars not a lot of money? Also whether or not it's "a lot" wasn't even what the contention was about... OP said Biden was reducing weapons aid to Israel and the above comment proves that's not true.
that's... not how it works. your vote is not an endorsement. plenty of people will openly protest against support of Israel while voting for Biden. you can actually break it down to pragmatic logic instead of the entirely incorrect broad strokes that you have done.
Biden is actively sending more weapons to Israel right this moment. The difference between Trump and Biden is that Trump hasn’t gotten a chance to actively participate and support genocide yet, and Biden has not only done that, but continues to express unwavering support for that genocide. So you’re right, Biden and Trump aren’t the same. They might be, if Trump wins this November, but right now Biden is objectively worse.
that's nice if you actually burn anything. if you just don't vote then you're just going to get stomped by fascists. either you actually commit to that level of action or you get rolled by those that do.
that's just an empty welcome to the fascists of it's not backed by meaningful planned action. the only way what you said will work is of you're ready to fucking go the second trump wins. he's not leaving otherwise. so either you're in a militia or you're pathetic and part of the problem.
amen. that's why the left is so bad, politically, and the right is, well better. they whine but keep voting. the leftists just whine and do nothing and get mad that the guy they didn't vote for didn't win.
Literally every grievance they have can be answered with "well then why didn't you vote in <X primary/off year election> where a candidate who would have answered that grievance if not built momentum towards one who would was running?"
If they spent a percent of the energy voting that they did whining about why they don't want to, Bernie would have won the 2016 primary handily, along with a slate of progressive challengers at his back.
DNC decided they get to decide the president rather than the people
I'm sorry which side of that debate says we should have counted donations instead of the actual votes?
All but outright saying "only the bougie white kids should count at the polls!" and yet somehow the DNC are the ones who are the threats to democracy and subverting the will of the people because they checks notes counted the ballots cast for all the candidates in the race.
Just about figures that the "voting bad!" screechers think that voting in the primary is somehow putting the fix in.
Hey, if you'd rather have the Republicans open fascists in power, you do you. I question your survival instincts, but still. I just hope you're just a tiny vocal minority, otherwise we might be all fucked. Or, if you're not a vocal minority... well, I hope you're right and I'm wrong.
I love it. It doesn't matter that Biden has consistently supported trans rights with tangible action during his administration, trans people are still under attack, so it's Literally All The Same. Like people who ask why there are still fires if there are firefighters.
The tangible actions he waited until his final year of the term to enact, that are instantly being challenged by states. That's not consistent and it's hardly tangible. You're not going to tell me that my own struggles are worth ignoring a genocide.
So which is it? He hasn't done anything or he waited too long in his term? How does any of this even compare to the other guy??? Sometimes I wonder if you guys are smoking shrooms because you make no sense
The tangible actions he waited until his final year of the term to enact,
It's funny. I've had this song and dance before. When I break out previous actions towards guaranteeing trans rights, it immediately shifts from "It was too late in his term" to "Well it wasn't enough".
Assertion: You live in an entrenched two party system.
Scenario: Only concerning ourselves with voting, which party do you vote for?
I bring this up as a person in America who has beliefs that do not fit into either of the two parties. Some of my preferred policies are backed by one party, some are backed by the other, some are backed by neither.
I take action beyond voting like working to switch the voting system to approval voting, but I'm going to limit the discussion to voting because that's the bare minimum everyone should do and your vote won't be contextualized by the candidates, it will look identical to all the other votes.
Your politics are relevant because if you think that Republicans/Democrats both have enticing policies, your values are so so far from mine that we don't have the same political goals. So I won't be engaging in conversation with you as if we did.
There are many political tools at your disposal. Voting is one of them. Not voting does not affect change. Unless your political views are "I don't give a shit" voting is a positive use of your time even if you're doing other things outside of voting.
I never said I wasn't voting, but also I totally understand why many people do not. I already told you I don't want to chat about this, because I think you and I aren't aligned whatsoever and it's useless to discuss political strategy. It's weird that you keep demanding I answer a question ... like I care?? About answering you?
Both choices are terrible, I agree, but there is one that is a clear better over the other.
One wants you to boil alive slowly and the other wants to dismember you with a chain saw.
We need to vote for the boiler and hope we can convince him not to turn up the heat again.
But also, if we're in bright red or blue states voting has no impact on the end result. It's just a way to wash our hands of the guilt of supporting the other guy.
As a trans woman from a European country which political climate is heavily influenced by yours, I can quite confidently say that my rights are in your hands.
That's crazy, because I assumed you could also vote and that voting was the only real solution.
Are American votes now the only votes that matter?
Just because you believe that voting cannot be part of any solution doesn't mean the rest of us just believe the exact opposite. What are you, in grade school?
One wants you to boil alive slowly and the other wants to dismember you with a chain saw.
No.
One is consisting of unimaginative and incompetent people, and people that want to do things but cannot due to the another group.
The other group is consisting of outright vile people that get off of other people's suffering, religious fanatics that need some "noble lies" about things like trans people otherwise "they'll throw away eternal happiness of the afterlife for the temporary happiness of this life", and "good willing conservatives" that are fooled by the meaning of the word and think "even if all this turns out to be real hatred, the next government can just unlegislate the law".
We had 8 years of the former in Hungary. The latter convinced enough "good willing conservatives" to vote for them. We no longer can "unvote" them, for another government to "unlegislate" horrible laws, and no government will unsteal money stolen by Fidesz oligarchs, unexpel kids from high school because Fidesz lowered the education age, and undo the countless other harm caused by them.
I don't think a "world wide worker's revolution" is coming. If it's coming, it'll be in current China style, and I got enough of mediocre dictators wanting to form society to their liking. If it will be somehow good, it still can't undo the harms of the current system. And if the rise of Nazism didn't lead to the second coming of Rosa Luxemburg, I doubt the current rise of fascism will lead to anything like that, and leftist movements can be easily crushed by a police state in their cradles. Hell, all they need is widespread alcoholism and overwork, like in Hungary where they weaponize doomerism.
One is consisting of unimaginative and incompetent people
Sadly, the Pete Buttigiegs and Krysten Sinemas of the world are fiercely competent in their pursuit of climbing up the political ladder and cashing out at the public's expense.
We had 8 years of the former in Hungary. The latter convinced enough “good willing conservatives” to vote for them. We no longer can “unvote” them
The former paved the way for the latter. Perestroika opened the gates to the neoliberal barbarians, and when they were done looting the country it was ripe for a fascist revival. Every "we have to vote for the lesser of two evils" concession accumulated a bit more evil. And what you're left with is a mafia in place of a government precisely because compromise after compromise whittled away everything the country had going for it.
I don’t think a “world wide worker’s revolution” is coming.
I don't think Biden wins this next election. Not for all the screaming and left-shaming and "but Trump is worse"ing on the internet. Biden's 2020 coalition is hemorrhaging conservatives as fast as its hemorrhaging college leftists. He can't win Arizona, Nevada, or Georgia a second time now that he's pissed away domestic good will on hundreds of billions in foreign military aid.
And if the rise of Nazism didn’t lead to the second coming of Rosa Luxemburg
Rosa Luxemburg was killed in 1919, by the German State Police, as they sought to quell student protests. She was arrested by the Freikorps and tortured before their execution. This was the year before the formation of the NSDAP. The leaders of the Shanghai Commune of 1927 suffered a similar fate under Chiang Kai-shek eight years later. It was Luxemburg's death, and the exile of Zhou Enlai, that heralded the ascension of the then-modern fascist movement.
This occurred under moderate governments. One might even call them Bidenesque. They cleared a path for the fascism that swept through China and Germany over the next decades under ostensibly liberal democratic rule.
What we're seeing in Palestine and Ukraine and Argentina and India - and reflected in Columbia and UCLA and UT@A, via a militant police backed by far-right local militias - is a tide of fascism that won't be stopped by a bunch of liberal enablers. Hundreds of Rosas are dying to Israel bombs. Hundreds more are being rounded up and brutalized by American police. They'll keep appearing, because this amount of pain and fear is intolerable, and has to be resisted at all costs.
And if you think that resistance to fascism amounts to
mediocre dictators wanting to form society to their liking
then I gotta question what you're going to do now that fascism is on your doorstep.
I’m voting for the lesser of the two evils, which is Blue, in yet another fucked up election. Read your damn history, the US politicians, Blue and Red, always give Israel a blank check for weapons to continue the family blood feud over lots of dried up rocks. Do your civil duty and vote.
People generally don't like actually participating in democracy. And fuck, who can blame them? The essential feature of changing policy in a democratic polity is the hard, arduous, thankless fucking task of fighting an apathetic or actively hostile majority. You don't get to be a hero. You don't get recognition. You may not even see any change at all from your own, personal efforts, sometimes not even locally. Success is measured on the scale of decades. It's fucking miserable. There's no sudden wave of support to ride to victory, there's no cheering crowds showing your opposition how utterly defeated and isolated they are, like you once were; there's no moment of vindication. It's nothing but struggle, toil, and tedium.
The essential feature of changing policy in a democratic polity is the hard, arduous, thankless fucking task of fighting an apathetic or actively hostile majority.
The TikTok ban flew through. The '08 bank bailouts passed practically overnight. War bills for rammed through in a matter of months. Weapons deals are routine and tax cuts happen under every presidency.
The corrupt legislation doesn't need to walk this arduous road. And corporate lobbyists regularly tout their jetset cocaine and hooker lifestyle.
This is the real face of American democracy. Not an army of petitioners fighting bad weather and apathetic crowds to scrap out civil rights from a clumsy bureaucracy. It's dudes in $10k suits wooing senators in wine caves and beach resorts. And those same senators denouncing their constituents as greedy, lazy, ignorant slobs when a protest over the latest turd of a legislative package comes through.
Sorry that the miserable task of democracy doesn't appeal to you. Maybe you can find somewhere where you can just parrot the Party Line and be happy with the Great Leader? I hear the PRC is nice.
Keeping licking those boots, I'm sure your social credit score will serve you well in the future. Cretins like you adore fascism, after all.
I mean, imagine simping for a state currently involved in a genocide, putting hundreds of thousands of Muslims in concentration camps and executing them at will. And imagining that you're better than the Israeli simps?
imagine simping for a state currently involved in a genocide, putting hundreds of thousands of Muslims in concentration camps and executing them at will. And imagining that you're better than the Israeli simps?
If you think that's bad, wait until you hear about Native American reservations and the origins thereof.
Success is measured on the scale of decades. It's fucking miserable. There's no sudden wave of support to ride to victory, there's no cheering crowds showing your opposition how utterly defeated and isolated they are, like you once were; there's no moment of vindication. It's nothing but struggle, toil, and tedium.
Yet, that is how societies change.
Interesting.
Is this how the United States was created?
I thought that the Fourth of July was celebrating some other type of event
The American Revolution was the result of some 40 years of agitating and politiking to change popular opinion, and ended with a ramshackle government where everyone hated one another and was entirely dysfunctional for half a decade, at which point a series of compromises no one was happy with and the only unambiguously popular figure in the nation came together to make the US Constitution, which everyone at the time hated. At which point we struggled for the next 20 years with lingering monarchist and loyalist sentiment, and then for the next 50 with anti-democratic and secessionist sentiment.
The change from a British colony to an independent country was (largely) not guns and fireworks. It was comprised of convincing people on the ground to take a different view than the one they grew up with; a slow, miserable, thankless process. And the part of it that was guns and fireworks was not nearly so glorious and momentous, nor spontaneous, as it is often pretended.
I did not suggest that there is anything glorious about violent revolution wherein untold numbers of human beings are murdered.
However, barring that violent revolution, the most powerful and wealthy country in the history of the world would not currently exist.
My point is that it is inaccurate to act like the slow progress of incrementalist democratic reforms is the only way for societal conditions to progress. If anything, those sorts of nonrevolutionary improvements, such as with Mandela in SA, are historical aberrations rather than norms.
The current global superpowers of the United States, China, and Russia were all formed by violent revolution. Secondary powers, such as Australia, Canada, Israel, etc, were formed through violent settler colonialism. And yet, despite this lack of democratic negotiation and mediation, these are the states that largely control the world.
Peaceful adherence to norms and consensus may have arguably established the Nordic model of social democracy and high living standards. However, in terms of global power politics, it seems to leave something to be desired. Violence has consistently led to a change in conditions, and oftentimes, an improvement in those conditions. If we disagree with that then we disagree with the essence of the United States itself - in which case, voting for neoliberal moderation with the Democrats seems to be missing the point entirely
If anything, those sorts of nonrevolutionary improvements, such as with Mandela in SA, are historical aberrations rather than norms.
Under that same logic, democratic governments are historical aberrations rather than norms. So why are you trying to apply a concept of how history 'normally' is to historical aberrations?
The current global superpowers of the United States, China, and Russia were all formed by violent revolution.
Formed by violent revolution against non-democratic polities.
Peaceful adherence to norms and consensus may have arguably established the Nordic model of social democracy and high living standards. However, in terms of global power politics, it seems to leave something to be desired.
Or maybe all the Nordic countries combined have less than a third of the population of the UK alone and didn't even develop into democratic polities until the 20th century?
Nah, it's gotta be because they didn't found their prosperity on violence, not that stupid 'material conditions' stuff.
Violence has consistently led to a change in conditions, and oftentimes, an improvement in those conditions. If we disagree with that then we disagree with the essence of the United States itself - in which case, voting for neoliberal moderation with the Democrats seems to be missing the point entirely
"The US was founded on violence because of the lack of democracy, therefore, voting in a democratic system instead of using violence is missing the essence of America."
The US has a representative democracy. We elect people by voting so that those people can represent our beliefs in the action of government without us being there to make sure our voice is heard and considered.
While I agree that everyone should be more involved in civics, especially at a local level, it's not really efficient for a society to implement a vanilla democracy. There are lots of other jobs like generating food/removing waste, generating energy/removing pollution, constructing/maintaining housing, transporting people including democratic representatives to and fro based on their obligations and desires, entertaining people so they can offset the pain in their lives and continue on with the struggle that is life, defend citizens from others or ourselves, etc.
Having a group of people act out government on our behalf is a good thing because we can specialize in other things to allow them to do so.
This all being said, there has been a disconnect with our representatives and with reality in general, so there is a giant need to reconnect with civic life in the US at all ages and at all levels for that matter.
Yeah, but that requires doing more than just doom posting, and we can't have that now can we? /s
So many of the things people bitch about could be lessened (not necessarily resolved, but ffs, perfect is the enemy of good) by getting involved locally and trying to make things better for themselves and their neighbors. Fuck, even working on 3rd party support locally while stemming the bleeding nationally until there's real ground level support would be better, but I guess we gotta tilt at windmills nationally and ignore the local level to get shut done......
This is not necessarily true right now. Biden has put conditions on arms use, he has been slow walking arms shipments and now has placed a pause on them, however Israel needs to be supported to avoid major wars breaking out in the Mideast. Unfortunately Biden cannot control Netanyahu any more than he can control the orange mobster - both are dangerously deranged.
however Israel needs to be supported to avoid major wars breaking out in the Mideast.
I don't think this is true, except insofar as "Waving a stick at Iran every now and again" is concerned. And honestly, we do that bare minimum of discouraging aggression for a lot of countries, not all of whom we would consider allies or countries we support.
I think @rayyy is right, unfortunately. If the West severs ties with Israel overnight (and suddenly stopping arms shipments would essentially be the same thing as severing ties), it'll just create a power vacuum where Russia or China will cosy up to Israel instead. Israel has a lot of influence in the region - partially because it's been propped up by US support, of course - and other countries would absolutely try to prop up Israel and capitalise on their influence in the US' place if they had the opportunity. Which would perhaps slow down the genocide for a little while, but it would inevitably pick back up, but this time without the US/West having any influence at all.
Not to mention the fact that the US losing its influence over Israel would almost certainly destabilise the region. Iran would be emboldened, as you alluded to. Hamas would be emboldened, and while I take the side of the Palestinian people in this whole ordeal, I don't think Hamas being emboldened would be a good idea - it would likely lead to further conflict and even worse suffering for the Palestinian people. Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Turkey would all likely try to expand their influences, too.
Biden is trying to slowly reel Israel in while still maintaining US influence there. Partially because the US just wants to keep its power, of course, but also because it's perhaps the best way to have some control over the genocide and over the region rather than just being an observer. I don't like all the blood on our collective hands but I think that, at this point, the genocide would continue without us.
I absolutely think the fact that Israel has been put in the position it's in represents decades of shortsightedness and foreign policy failure, though. Israel should never have been in the position to do this.
Keep protesting from now to the future until we get shit done, but vote Biden regardless. We're stuck with this choice cause this is the only least worst option we have, voting red is just shooting oneself in the foot. Wish Bernie was still an option.
Not voting because bOtH pArTiEs ArE tHe SaMe, even after the goddamned 2016-21 dark ages, is the leftist version of anti-vaxx anti-mask. Too many people seem to be equally lazy plus self-centered equals stupid, in all directions.
Whether it's about putting a piece of cloth on your face or voting, they're special; above it all; they know what the truth is, and we're the dumb ones for not seeing it, we're the dumb ones for doing something, for choosing a path of effort/inconvenience/civic duty instead of inaction. And we are the mindless herd to them.
EDIT: Then you tell them that republican and russian troll farms are flooding their discussions, concern trolling about genocide while russia itself is invading Ukraine with genocidal intentions, with the explicit intent to get them to not vote because they are manipulable in bad faith, and do they seem to care?
Voting for someone who is less bad is harm reduction. You can do harm reduction, while loudly proclaiming that it fucking sucks there’s not a better option, and working to provide better options.
I hate Biden. But I hate (and fear) the prospect of a second trump term more.
I'm the person in another country worried about how even the meager progress towards tackling climate change will be enthusiastically and vigorously reversed out of spite thoroughly double fucking the rest of us for good.
The lion's share of progress isn't happening in the West. It's reforms happening in East Asia and new cleaner development happening in Latin America and Africa.
Western states are hobbled by legacy infrastructure they refuse to replace. What progress they have made has been driven by cheap imports. And they're going to halt those imports to protect legacy industry
Can western states start stealing eastern IP and marketing it now?
If the tables have turned, it makes sense if genocide Joe is genociding those Palestinians, China finished with their uighur 'issue' and the poor destitute west only knows how to copy moves from the 'big glorious leaders' in the east
🤡
Can western states start stealing eastern IP and marketing it now?
You think we haven't been, already?
it makes sense if genocide Joe is genociding those Palestinians, China finished with their uighur ‘issue’
What is the Rafa of Xinjiang?
Beijing sends in construction workers and factory managers and Mandarin teachers, and westerners call it genocide. Tell Aviv sends bombers to demolish hospitals and snipers to double tap relief workers, and we send cops to cave your face in when you object.
Go back and review the Hong Kong riots. Compare them to Columbia and UCLA.
If Tianamen happened in DC today, the news media would call the guy in front of the tank a Russian antisemite and the tank commander a pussy for failing to flatten him.
The Americans invaded Afghanistan and kicked off a flood of refugees over the Chinese border. We dropped thousand pound bombs to flatten whole villages when we suspected a member of the Taliban was in residence. And we conducted this butchery for decades, killing 12-year-old boys while labeling them "Fighting Age Males". Turning school children into prostitutes to satisfy the baser instincts of our occupying military and allied warlords. Crushing a son's testicles to extort confessions from his father.
And we never thought to call it genocide.
When Beijing invests billions in the industrialization of its most rural provinces? That's where we draw the line.
I don't mean to be paranoid but sometimes I think about who benefits most from conflict and division on the American Left, and whether they have the resources to artificially sow mistrust of reliable news and advance an agenda that benefits Russian interests.
Some of the nutjobs on Lemmy are actively hoping for another four years of Donald. A collapsing America helps China gain territory.
Not sure how they are so dimwitted as to want openly racist fascists heading up such a large nuclear arsenal. But dimwitted as they are, a good portion of the bothsidesing is deliberate.
Unfortunately they not only exist, they also vote.
Blocking them is good for personal mental health but does not in any way solve the problem. It just leaves them to fester inside their own echo chambers.
This seems to be a recurring fear among pro-Biden Democrats.
No real regard for Palestine or pregnant women in Texas or Trans people anywhere, but this absolute terror over Chinese economic influence spreading across East Asia.
It feels like the Dem policy is just "We need Biden to fight more of the correct wars America needs to be in".
And that's what I'm afraid a second Biden term will bring.
We've seen one term of an insurrectionist filling 1/3 of SCOTUS with corrupt and unqualified shitheads. They are already taking away the rights of my neighbors and aiming for more. I know why I am against Donald and it has nothing to do with China.
I'm still struggling to figure out why so-called "leftists" on Lemmy want full authoritarian fascism. When they are telling me any amount of collateral damage is fine as long as large numbers of white Americans get murdered, and their comment history is full of wanking over socialism with Chinese characteristics, that's the conclusion I am going to draw.
I'm not American, but I am fascinated by the cognitive dissonance it takes for these People who claim to be progressive to chart a path that clearly puts Trump in office while claiming they're fighting for the very people that Trump has already banned from being in America.
Trump would be bad for America and for the world, but a part of me wants to see y'all elect him again, just out of curiosity. The stupidity knows no bounds.
Really feels like Israel is trying to do the old Russian misinformation game even on Lemmy these days to try and suppress blue votes on a single wedge issue because they know it’s the only way to get Trump elected and get more guns and bombs than they’re already getting, and they wouldn’t get pushback at all for Rafah or any warnings of any sort, just a blank check for wanton genocide.
Like I don’t like what’s happening in Palestine, but I don’t want to make it worse by pretending a non vote would somehow help them. Helping them would be ensuring that the party least likely to enable Israel the most is elected. That’s Joe Biden. Some people have ridiculous nicknames for him but my god wait until they make this look like restraint if Trump gets elected. Palestine would cease to exist almost immediately and Israel will de facto annex it, like Russia is trying to do in Ukraine.
So really you can vote to minimize the pain and suffering of Palestinians or you can not vote to minimize the pain and suffering of Palestinians. Personally I’m gonna vote to minimize the pain and suffering of Palestinians, and also support the environment (again not to the degree I desire), and support abortion access, and trans rights, and taxes for the wealthiest Americans, and, the list goes on, but yeah, I’m gonna vote for Joe Biden.
I just love the white self proclaimed leftists who insist that they're the only ones in all of America who truly take the threat of fascism as seriously as needed and yet their advocated course ot action is to let the fascists get everything they want but blame it on the people actually trying to stop them for not catering enough to white self proclaimed leftist interests.
They'll still be singing the tune of how one day the DNC establishment will totally learn their lesson this time if we protest vote at the election the Christnats are holding as a sham, singing it all the way as they get frog marched to the gas chambers ahead of everyone they let the fascists kill first.
Not to sound like a Twitter wokescold or whatever, but Shaun does this all the time. A cishet white guy from England who won't be affected in any way by the outcome of the U.S. election, yet constantly tweets and retweets about how the Democrats and Republicans are totally equally bad and voting makes no difference.
But when we look at what Republicans are doing and saying like...
Trump saying he'll be a "dictator for one day"
His lawyers arguing that a president killing an opponent should be considered an official act protected by law
The potential Republican vice-candidate bragging about shooting a puppy and other farm animals
Reports that DeSantis enjoyed torturing people at Guantanamo
Multiple Republican politicians and pundits calling for the eradication of trans people
I think this take doesn't hold up. It's no coincidence that many of the people with this mentality are also the ones who'll be minimally affected by a Republican presidency, if at all.
I agree with everything here except giving air to an annoying ass term like "wokescold". That's just something invented to try and reverse (completely justified usually) shaming
Disclaimer: I'm Australian so I only have a relatively small stake in this, and I'm pretty solidly in the do vote camp.
All that said, I find myself really empathizing with the frustrations I've seen expressed by those who won't vote. Again I don't agree with not voting, I just see there is humanity behind it. It makes me weep that you need to fight about this in the first place, we have preferential voting so it's not an issue at all here, you can vote independent and still prevent the right from taking office.
I hope you all make it through this safely and that you have no regrets in the end. Please look after each other, solidarity is our strength.
Well you choose to blame the people instead of blaming Biden who can end all of this today and end up winning in a landslide.
The fact that Biden chooses to risk a Trump administration over ending a genocide should be very concerning to the average voter, but Americans of course rather blame the people than their elites. Same shit like with anti Union stances.
Just because I’m blaming protest voters doesn’t mean I’m not blaming Biden. His hands are in no way clean here and his handling of the situation in the Middle East has been horrendous.
All that being said though, I choose realism over idealism. We have a FPTP electoral system in the US. This inevitably results in a binary choice. Come Election Day, every voter is either choosing to enable Biden’s neoliberalism or Trump’s fascism. It is that simple.
I’m making the choice to knowingly be a neoliberal enabler even if I would prefer something else. The reason being is that any other choice makes me a fascist enabler, same for 100% of protest voters whether or not they choose to bury their heads in the sand about it. As such, I’m entitled to think that they are in fact fucking morons, and plenty of people agree with me.
Yet in many countries Unions are a well established and crucial part of society. Also in the US they used to be more powerful.
And why do they put out so much propaganda against Unions, Environmental protection, etc.? Because they are scared. They know the power people have, if they unite and demand change. We didn't get womens voting and non segregated civil rights from people just voting and being pessimistic. Those were longer struggles, but they worked in the end by not relenting and gaining momentum, until their voices were heard.
Well you choose to blame the people instead of blaming Biden who can end all of this today and end up winning in a landslide.
I don't know how this delusion became so widespread, but the idea that withdrawing support from Israel is a consensus position even just within the Democratic Party is so utterly divorced from reality that it baffles me.
And that is in the current media landscape, where the Dems were still defending Israel and downplaying their actions. If they went out to go full documentation, full coverage about war crimes, full rhetoric about who Netanyahu, Ben Gvir, Likud and the other fascists really are...
And we now see the worst yet to come with the invasion of Rafah. The only way Biden and the Dems can salvage this, is if they go 180° now. Otherwise they will just keep losing face to their base, as more and more atrocities become public.
So 37% thinking he is in the right balance or too favourable to Palestinians. Leaving 62% who are either convinced that Israel is getting too much favours from the US, or who don't know, which means they are susceptible to changing their position once they get the actual picture of what is going on. Because there is no way that people will switch to become more favourable of Israel now, as the Bodies pile up even higher.
And think of the potential outcomes: If Biden continues to support Israel he risks them going completely out of their way with genocide and by November he has to justify US taxpayer money having killed hundreds of thousands of people, of which there were many American citizens in particular aid workers.
If Biden stops supporting Israel and only provide replenishment for Iron Dome and Missile intercepting systems, Israel would have to retreat and start facing justice at the ICC. But there is no existential threat to them.
which means they are susceptible to changing their position once they get the actual picture of what is going on.
I think you overestimate the US electorate's interest in foreign affairs. Or the US electorate's interest in politics in general. Some would flip, probably. But I doubt it would be as quick or as total as many here seem to think. It certainly wouldn't deliver the election to Biden in a landslide.
Because there is no way that people will switch to become more favourable of Israel now, as the Bodies pile up even higher.
Let me relay to you a story, that I hope will shed some light on my position in opposition to that assertion. I have a friend, very liberal, as all my close friends are. His dad is, likewise, very liberal. On every major policy issue I've discussed with him, he's been decidedly left-leaning. Public assistance, taxation, infrastructure, education, foreign affairs.
Now, this was waaaay before the Russo-Ukraine War, so Russia was still just some weird far-off place with some ex-KGB guy at the head. No one was thinking anything more of it, but the issue of Russia and recent history and trivia came up, and I started talking about the Moscow Theatre Crisis (or maybe it was the Beslan Siege? either way), making some dark jokes about, you know, 40 terrorists, 100 hostages, 140 bodybags, mission accomplished, in a smarmy kind of way. We got to discussing it seriously, and he up and says that killing the hostages to get at the hostage-takers showed a 'strong leader'.
He was a well-educated guy. Went to college, had a technical job in his field. Reasonably sensitive, fairly liberal, pro-feminist, proud of his very independent daughter, anti-imperialist (when Iraq and Afghanistan were still on everyone's minds), pro-LGBT, very friendly and welcoming, a nerd with nerdy hobbies.
And he still said that showed a 'strong leader'.
Now, the purpose of this isn't to demonstrate some essential failing in my friend's dad - he's a very normal individual. But that's just the thing - many of us in modern society (and certainly much worse in past societies) are socialized to glamorize the most gruesome displays of power, even those of us who would otherwise fall on the more liberal side of things. Those who do not spend significant amounts of time pondering the philosophical implications of politics (ie the vast majority of the active electorate, much less the general population) easily fall into this trap, because it's so ingrained in our society.
If and when the general American population finds out more, many will turn against Israel - but a significant minority will take their brutality as a sign of strength. For the same reason that many in Israel who know the full story also take the brutality as a sign of strength.
If Biden stops supporting Israel and only provide replenishment for Iron Dome and Missile intercepting systems, Israel would have to retreat and start facing justice at the ICC. But there is no existential threat to them.
I'm in total support of that. Hell, I'm in support of removing aid for the Iron Dome and like systems. But I'm also well-aware that even if Biden changes nothing from this moment onward, it's not worth intensifying the Palestinian genocide and starting a few new ones at home just to show the DNC what for.
I've had this conversation with my SO. Technically speaking the best move for me as a white male would be to support Trump. Instead I vote for Democrats hoping for positive changes for all people. For most of my life I've thought I was "far left" for American standards, but since I've joined portions of Lemmy and Reddit you'd think I was a fucking Republican.
Certain portions of the left would rather spit in their own eye for unrealistic principles, even if it means that a worse alternative is the result.
Well, meme, not just not voting, but actively using their energy to attack their allies and help fascism spread.
To my disappointment, all I see from the self-appointed "real left" are people stubbornly trying to get US members to stop voting for the Democratic Party. And dunking on liberals ten times before they say one bad thing about reactionaries.
There could be so much good tankies could do, but instead, they aid the fascists. They treat the ongoing genocide as a just a convenient issue to drive a wedge between progressives. When China was committing genocide on the Uyghurs, tankie spaces on Reddit were talking it down and passing around Chinese propaganda memes. The ongoing genocide by Russia in Ukraine seems fine, too, if not even largely met with approval.
I hope some of those pulled into this web and led astray will yet wake up and use their energies for something positive. For example, there are already states that have adopted ranked choice voting, which will let everyone vote, even for a fringe party, without risking a fascist takeover. It will show, black on white, how many progressives there are that would want politicians to move left. If it was to kick off, it is almost guaranteed to topple the current status quo.
We don't get to vote for a target, just a direction in which to ever so slightly turn. When far off course, every choice will continue to lead in the wrong direction, but over time those small corrections will add up. Hopefully.
I'm all for the protest and the outrage over a genocide, it is all warranted. Biden is proving to be just as blood thirst as most of the politicians that fill D. C.. Come November I will still vote for him. The reason I will vote is due to Trump's in a different category of POS status.
Voting is very important but we focus too much on the presidential and we never look at local and state. We need to reevaluate what we are trying to accomplish. I believe the president position has ran it's course and needs to be done away. I believe we need a complete redesign of our federal and even state systems. Popular votes, rank choice, and possible EU redesign with states breaking up might be options.
Nothing should be off the table due to traditions and "what would the founding fathers think" arguments. 200 years ago we believed spirits caused mental health issues and cocaine helped soothe babies. Not smart by today's standards.
If we are to believe Biden at his word that Trump will attempt a fascist coup regardless of election results, why is he spending his time banning tik tok instead of truth social?
Because there is a legitimate security reason to ban Tiktok, while banning Truth Social for supporting a fascist would run up against the 1st Amendment.
Because there's rare bipartisan agreement on banning Tiktok due to the security risks presented by the Chinese government.
Because the Tiktok ban is unrelated to the election. As evidenced by the normally hyperpartisan GOP being onboard.
Because Biden is a democrat, small d, and believes that elections should be largely free and fair, and silencing the opposition is neither. Yes, including if the opposition consists of fascists.
Because that would feed into the right-wing narrative of "The DEMS are OPPRESSING US" which can sway low-information voters with singular high-profile incidents repeated loudly and often.
Get real man. Tik Tok was never about China. It was always about silencing support for Palestinians. This is known.
Why do I feel like you're the type to argue that fascist rhetoric is protected under the 1st amendment? If you think fascists deserve a platform, you are the bad guy. This is liberalism.
It was always about silencing support for Palestinians
This makes you look so uninformed it is literally causing me to cringe. The ban was proposed several years ago, by republicans originally.
What the absolute fuck. When you say something so uninformed, it makes me think you actually are just mad about your funny videos and will look for anything else that sounds less pathetic to whine about
Motherfucker, Democrats got on board YEARS AGO because giving an authoritarian government full access to surveil your citizens is a fucking no brainer thing to want to prevent.
All you're doing here is revealing that you've no idea what's been happening in the world. Probably due to endlessly scrolling through 15 second clips.
Ps I will never click a TikTok link, even if it wasn't clearly irrelevant
Not unlike common sense. Commonly held, and very often wrong, because it just appeals to the prejudices and preconceptions of the person repeating it.
Why do I feel like you’re the type to argue that fascist rhetoric is protected under the 1st amendment? If you think fascists deserve a platform, you are the bad guy. This is liberalism.
Because it literally is. Whether you agree with that or not, the ACLU has gone to bat on the issue and established the issue several times in the highest courts of the land. If you're arguing that Biden should be doing something he doesn't have the power to do, I don't know what to tell you.
So let me get this straight... you hold (one specific reading of) the first amendment to be so sacred, that you'd sooner follow it and allow its dissolution by fascists, than deplatform the fascists who wish to dissolve it?
You'd sacrifice your constitution and nation just so that you could have the moral benefit of having followed it?
So let me get this straight… you hold (one specific reading of) the first amendment to be so sacred, that you’d sooner follow it and allow its dissolution by fascists, than deplatform the fascists who wish to dissolve it?
This is not the place or time for the argument of the question of how much power the government should have to decide what kind of politics count as unacceptably fascist. This is about Biden - Biden does not have the power nor political support to shut down Truth Social, so why the fuck bring it up?
So all of these obstacles that you list as reasons to why Biden is so ineffective - why didn't he just nominate an AG who'd give him a free pass to do anything he wanted - like Trump? Why isn't Biden bending the rule of law to halt fascism?
The answer is because you cling to "precedence" and "civility" so hard that you'd rather see a fascist takeover before a democrat disobeys your precious rules and processes that were set up by 30 year old slave owners. To liberals, the rule of law takes precedence over a fascist takeover. It is bizarre.
Americans own guns because of a mixture of toxic masculinity and a former 'frontier' culture that was reliant on (and permissive of) hunting.
The idea that private gun ownership is going to overthrow an otherwise-functioning government is a delusion peddled by the gun industry.
If things come down to it, it's not going to be whether or not Billy Bob and his friends have an AR-15 in their closets that's going to decide how things go.
If one man losing an election can protect so many, surely a more proactive approach would be the best move?
Political violence rarely stabilizes anything, and dead politicians often become martyrs. If you're advocating assassination, you might as well go the whole nine yards and advocate civil war because that's where the dominos are gonna fall once political violence is normalized - or else fascism, if the public has no appetite for civil war.
We support Biden because he is willing to be swayed by changing public opinion. Trump just doubles down on things people don't support when confronted. That Trump voters see the left disagreeing with Biden and think "Oh, that means they won't support him" just shows that they believe politicians views are fixed and unchanging.
Yes, let's keep punching left as Democrats lose even the moderates they exclusively cater to now.
Instead, Mr. Biden’s losses are concentrated among moderate and conservative Democratic-leaning voters, who nonetheless think that the system needs major changes or to be torn down altogether. Mr. Trump wins just 2 percent of Mr. Biden’s “very liberal” 2020 voters who think the system at least needs major changes, compared with 16 percent of those who are moderate or conservative.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/13/us/politics/biden-trump-battleground-poll.html
Surely punching left will convince leftists that siding with backstabbing liberals will work this time!
I'm likely voting for Biden, for what it's worth, but wouldn't your goals be better served by trying to work with leftists and unalienate them from the electoral process, rather than opting for the shame route? The entire reason why Biden is losing leftist votes is because liberals have been punching left, rather than trying to build a coalition, thus alienating leftist voices.
Surely punching left will convince leftists that siding with backstabbing liberals will work this time!
lmao
I’m likely voting for Biden, for what it’s worth, but wouldn’t your goals be better served by trying to work with leftists and unalienate them from the electoral provess, rather than opting for the shame route? The entire reason why Biden is losing leftist votes is because liberals have been punching left, rather than trying to build a coalition, thus alienating leftist voices.
Yep, sure, it's definitely been the mean ol' shitlibs- I mean, liberals, who are always punching left. Those poor wittle folk who say "I see literally no difference between liberals and fascists!" just need a nice pat on the head and are definitely willing and eager to work with liberals, if only someone said a few nice words to them.
Sorry for not affording them the respect that fascist enablers apparently 'deserve'.
Licking the boots of fascist enablers doesn't help a coalition. Raising awareness of the vapidity and disingenuity of fascist enablers and their constantly parroted talking points who would never vote for a filthy 'shitlib' anyway is more effective in strengthening the actual voting numbers of a coalition. But you keep playing apologist for the mass murder of minorities.
Calling alienated leftists “fascist enablers” is how you plan to get them to vote for Biden like us?
No, because I'm already well-aware that they're not voting for 'shitlibs' like Biden. Calling self-proclaimed 'leftists' who value purity over the death of minorities fascist enablers is how I let them know they aren't welcome where people with a shred of human fucking dignity are, and to minimize the effect of their dry, repetitive "BOTH SIDES" script.
There is a growing subsection of the population that currently cannot morally justify voting for an enabler of genocide.
These people would never vote for Trump, because Trump is a more reactionary candidate.
These people do not want fascism, they want Socialism, and thus are alienated by the DNC.
Sounds to me like the correct course of action is to point out the futility of voting for leftist change, and that it might be more strategically viable to vote for Biden over Trump, rather than abstaining or voting PSL, no?
If your goal is truly to get Biden to win, then your goal should be to build a coalition. If you believe the votes of alienated leftists do matter, then you must try to gain their votes.
The fact that you seem to be actively antagonizing them makes it seem like their votes do not matter to you.
There is a growing subsection of the population that currently cannot morally justify voting for an enabler of genocide.
Sounds to me like the correct course of action is to point out the futility of voting for leftist change, and that it might be more strategically viable to vote for Biden over Trump, rather than abstaining or voting PSL, no?
I love that you can't even see the contradiction here.
I'm not from the US, and no, I'm not feeling safer with liberal or not. Imperialism is pretty much the same. I don't know what is worse, but I'm sure that in both cases, it would worthless if you have not a strong anti-imperialist and organized movement inside an international organization.
For example, my organization is in the ICL, like the IWW.
Lmao no. Threatening us with authoritarian rule isn't going to work. It didn't stop us from doing drugs, and it's not going to force us to vote for you.
You have no choice but to vote for the genocide enabler. It is the only way to save "democracy." The type of democracy where you have to support the abhorrent to keep out the truly monstrous and if you say you won't, a bunch of self important liberals will pretend it's all your fault and not the parade of geriatric ghouls the party has been nominating
” The type of democracy where you have to support the abhorrent to keep out the truly monstrous and if you say you won’t, a bunch of self important liberals will pretend it’s all your fault and not the parade of geriatric ghouls the party has been nominating
Yes, isn't it terrible when democracy doesn't agree with you? The only TRULY democratic society is one where those pesky proles listen to those who know what's good for them, right?
Democracy doesn't work particularly well when the voters are uneducated or otherwise missinformed. That when the country starts doing things that are against its and its own citizens interest. Corruption, legal or otherwise, also contribute to making it disfunctional.
No, and I don't really know how you could come to that conclusion, since the meme doesn't say anything about whether any given act or ideal is 'true democracy'.
“If leftists don’t vote for Biden they are stupid”
Yeah, if you allow fascism in order to stop a non-fascist government, you're a fascist enabler.
“Wow why do you think I’m telling the proles how to vote?”
I didn't realize pointing out consequences of losing a democratic election, and advocating voting for a candidate in that democratic election order to avoid those consequences, was anti-democratic. Thank you for teaching me this, O Great Leftist.
As a citizen, it's my duty to speak out against what I feel are bad choices for the polity. I didn't realize advocacy of voting for (or against) a specific candidate or issue through speech was so anti-democratic. I'm learning a lot from you today.
Sick of all these posts throwing guilt on those people sick of an ongoing genocide. What y'all don't realise is at this point where humanity seems.past saving to them, maybe those "people just want to watch the world burn". And they are therefore OK with seeing someone as despicable as Trump win. Just saying that shaming won't get you anywhere in that instance
Elections in the US are won by single-digit percentage points.
If leftists are 2% of the coalition, and anti-leftists are 20% of the coalition, do you think it's reasonable for the leftists to demand total capitulation to them in exchange for their vote? Do you think that a total capitulation to the leftists, in this case, would result in the coalition then having a net... gain in votes?
Sorry that you're so uncomfortable with the way democracy works.
Okay, I'll tell Biden to put away his taser and stop saying that the Palestinian protesters don't have a point and should be brutally attacked by local police.
“There’s the right to protest, but not the right to cause chaos,” Biden said shortly before leaving the White House for a trip to North Carolina. “People have the right to get an education, the right to get a degree, the right to walk across campus safely without fear of being attacked.”
Holy shit literal fascism Biden please put the tazer away
He is spreading lies that the protests are dangerous. He is saying they are chaotic when they clearly are not. This is fascism, the fact you can't see that is alarming. You're so, so, deeply brainwashed.
Ah, I knew that lazy soundbite would come up. You get that from a script, or are you just good at parroting?
“Mr. President, what’s your message to the protesters? Do you condemn the antisemitic protests on college campuses?” reporters asked the president after his speech Monday afternoon.
“I condemn the antisemitic protests,” Biden replied to the reporters. “That’s why I set up a program to deal with that.”
“I also condemn those who don’t understand what’s going on with the Palestinians.”
Actually Trump was great at delaying the rise of the alt-right in other countries even though tons of money from the likes of the Koch brothers was being thrown at it.
During his presidency Trump really changed the perception of America from "A great nation" to "A large backwards nation", at least here in Europe, which in turn means that people are far less likely to want to emulate it. You will notice, for example, that all those crazy American alt-right fads like the anti-mask and anti-vax manias didn't manage to cross the Atlantic all that well (though some countries in Latin America, such as Brasil which at the time also had a far-right president, did copy some).
Don't get me wrong, Europe is also suffering the consequences of the American Economic Policies that it copied pre-Trump (from Reaganism all the way to how the 2008 Crash was handled) and hence the fall in quality of life and fall in median worker incomes has made the ground fertile for simple ideologies blaming everything on "outsiders", hence the rise of the alt-right, but even it is not at all following the molds of the Trumpist version of it (the closest to it are the Tories in the UK and even they aren't going anti-LGBTA or obcessing about wokishness even though they too have the relentless propaganda of Murdoch's media empire).
Biden's pro-Zionist Genocide posture is just doing the same, only that is mainly amongst the young and more well educated.
"if you don't vote for the genocide guys then you'll get the genocide guys! (Also they've worked to make it super easy to strip leftist orgs of nonprofit status, works in lockstep to move the goalposts if a third party comes close to inclusion requirements, went to court to legally ensure they can run whoever the fuck they want, among plenty of other things - but our narrative depends exclusively on misinformation. We HAVE to call them single issue voters and claim that anybody not voting for Biden is advocating for not voting. Our real enemies aren't Republicans, its leftists, and the time has come to say the quiet part out loud.)"
Bro if Trump is such a threat and all that fascism stuff and you believe that, then why don't you just do what that old hitman did to the Slovak leader
Yet, people are always saying we only have 2 choices and don't talking about "wasting my vote". If enough people voted 3rd party, it would no longer be a "3rd party".
"If you don't vote for genocide, your actually voting for trump 🤓 "
I'm still voting 3rd party and the blue state I live in will still give genocide Joe my vote so don't worry OP. We'll continue to provide weapons to the country that just has whistle blowers leak evidence on concentration camps. Good to know that concentration camps aren't a deal breaker for you. 😮💨
Good to know that MORE concentration camps isn't a deal-breaker for you to have the smug satisfaction of voting third-party. Who the fuck cares about the support Trump has already promised genocidaires in Israel and the genocide he's promising here in the US? You have to FEEL good about yourself!
Again my state will go blue regardless of who I vote for. I'm gonna vote for someone who is anti-concentration camp, unlike you. I get the electoral college is a little hard for you to understand but again please calm down.
Palestinians are the ones being put in concentration camps not your privileged ass or mine.
Yeah, the Republicans are even worse than the dems I know. Just because I'm not afraid to admit that the Dems are backing genocide and it's not going to work out well for them in the election doesn't mean I support the Republicans.
The only thing forcing us to pick a lesser of two evils is the idea that it's the only option we have. Until we get past that, we're going to be locked in this cycle of picking really bad fascist or fascist who only support genocide over seas.
The eagerness you have to keep people in this trap and shame them for trying to do anything else is part of the problem. Until You and everyone else grows up and moves on from that (which is really unlikely) we will be stuck In this cycle.
The only thing forcing us to pick a lesser of two evils is the idea that it’s the only option we have.
It's the only option we have because the last time we had a good option, in 2020, not enough fucking people turned out to get the better option on the ballot. That's democracy, unfortunately. Maybe next time I'll be able to count the number of primary voters in my precinct on my hands and toes instead of just my hands.
The eagerness you have to keep people in this trap and shame them for trying to do anything else is part of the problem. Until You and everyone else grows up and moves on from that (which is really unlikely) we will be stuck In this cycle.
Oh, don't worry. If Trump wins, you won't have to fret about being 'stuck in this cycle' anymore.
Literally the Biden position. Which is a mild milquetoast lukewarm moderate take on an issue that should be far more serious.
The extent to which he's done this (not much) he's been dragged there by protests and complaints from voters. Literally what the people you're criticising are doing.
But I guess Trump's "We should intensify and start new genocides" is more appealing.
You could not be more like the meme if you tried. Only an idiot would vote Trump because of this. Most people are just pissed off at Biden for what you describe as his mild, milquetoast moderate take on the issue. It's almost like you agree but you still shame people with "Trump would be worse" as if 95% of us complaining don't already know that.
I expect better from Biden. That's it. If we can't criticise him for this dogshit policy then when can we?
I expect better from Biden. That’s it. If we can’t criticise him for this dogshit policy then when can we?
There's a vast fucking difference between criticizing him for his Israel policy and peddling "both sides" and "I'll never vote for Joe!" shite, or throwing a fit over being told that sitting by and letting Trump win is literally just voting for more genocide, regardless of whether you pissed away your vote in Green or Republican red.
Yes, and pretending that those people you describe represent a majority or even a substantial proportion of the people criticizing him is disingenuous and frankly insulting. Criticism is just that, criticism. And it is deserved.
On here? It's definitely a substantial minority. I'm not out on the streets bitching about Biden being attacked from the left - I'm on the Fediverse bitching about it.
To be honest, I already wasn't voting for Biden because of his record of mass incarceration, support for the Iraq War, and ghoulish complicity in every major problem the country is facing today. The fact that he's fully and unwaveringly supporting Israel's genocide is entirely on brand and just makes the decision even easier than before. Four years ago, those concerns were the ones liberals were saying you had to hold your nose and look past, now they're not even on the radar anymore and it's moved on to significantly worse things. It's a perfect example of how the democrats move discourse to the right.
The US political system is truly vile in how it effectively brainwashes people into supporting genocide. Even in this thread you can see people defending Israel and saying it's "necessary" for the US to support them, not even sticking to their lesser evilist line but just openly saying it's a good thing for Biden to support them. Once people choose a camp they just end up knee-jerk defending their decision and adopting positions of their candidate to simplify their cognitive dissonance. In some ways, it's worse than a straight up autocracy because of how it manipulates people while still not allowing people any meaningful voice.
Of course the lapdogs of the empire are more than happy to not only adjust their own beliefs into whatever the elites want, but to then browbeat anyone trying to stand against it. Because to them, the positions of our rulers are completely immutable while the moral convictions of voters are up for debate.
What liberals like OP will never understand is that no matter how real the threat of violence towards me is, it will never be enough to convince me to endorse genocide. At least I can go to my grave with a clean conscience, and that's not worth much but it's worth a hell of a lot more than anything Biden would do for me.
What liberals like OP will never understand is that no matter how real the threat of violence towards me is, it will never be enough to convince me to endorse genocide. At least I can go to my grave with a clean conscience, and that’s not worth much but it’s worth a hell of a lot more than anything Biden would do for me.
Cool, you can go to the grave knowing you've assisted in the murder as many people as possible. Good job!
Why does the blame for the results of a democratic farce that allows authoritarianism to rise falls on those not participating in said farce?
If anything, is those participating in it, advocating for it and validating it that should be blamed when the system they enabled inevitably puts in power an authoritarian idiot like trump. (not my way of thinking, but if we are gonna point fingers...)
Who would you blame if Biden wins the popular vote and your "very democratic" electoral college gives the win to trump? Like it happened to Clinton.
Standing by and doing nothing when you could do something is assisting the end result. So if Trump wins, you can pop some champagne and celebrate how many additional Palestinians you've helped murder so you could indulge in a masturbatory excuse for civic participation.
Sorry, I'm having trouble understanding you with that boot so far down your throat.
I think what you just said is something along the lines of, our ruler, who is actively arming and supporting a genocide that he has the power to stop, is completely blameless, while I, having no power and doing nothing with it, am somehow responsible for the genocide. That the gist of it?
I think what you just said is something along the lines of, our ruler, who is actively arming and supporting a genocide that he has the power to stop, is completely blameless, while I, having no power and doing nothing with it, am somehow responsible for the genocide. That the gist of it?
lmao
No, but maybe if you take a remedial English class, you can come back in a few years and actually parse what was said.
Because to them, the positions of our rulers are completely immutable while the moral convictions of voters are up for debate.
A million times, this.
By far the worst aspect of liberalism is the deflection of systemic critique in favor of blaming the individual instead. When liberal democracy fails it won't be because people didn't vote hard enough, it will be because the system failed to respond to the needs of the governed.
Genocide Joe can't wait to hand this mess over to Trump... and his loyal shill brigade have already decided the left should be the scapegoats. No McCarthyism required!
I guess "Russian hackers" are just too passe this time around.
Our electoral system cannot actually accommodate more than two parties on a mechanical level. It has to do with first past the post and our profoundly dumb electoral college.
Any third party in America doesn't have any chance whatsoever because of the machine.
The same thing will continue happening regardless who is elected. You didn't progress to genocide from one day to the next, this was a slow cook over the last 50 years which wasn't affected at all by the ruling puppet.
The same thing will continue happening regardless who is elected. You didn’t progress to genocide from one day to the next, this was a slow cook over the last 50 years which wasn’t affected at all by the ruling puppet.
Sometimes I feel like I'm the only left-leaning individual online who remembers the 90s and 2000s.
No, I'm using the 90s as a period that we've significantly improved over. This isn't a 'slow boil'. It's a war, with victories and defeats. Mistaking it for a steady march towards genocide ignores just how much progress has been made, even just in my lifetime.
And, as anyone who remembers the various cretins that ran for president in that period (and some of whom succeeded), would also recognize how influential the highest office of the Federal government is. It's not a dictatorship - but it is important who's in there.
EDIT: Apparently, voting doesn't matter, and both sides are quite literally the same; Clinton and Obama were just as bad as Reagan, Bush Jr, and Trump. What a bunch of hyper-privileged bullshit.
I don't think you remember the 90s very well. This is the period where neoliberalism finally triumphed. It's very much not a war. It's a slow, inevitable collapse into fascism
I remember it well enough. Calling LGBT folk slurs was regarded as normal and funny, marital rape was still legal in multiple states, the 'compromise' position of LGBT folk in the military was "Stay in the closet and you're allowed to serve", supporting gay marriage was anathema to literally 90% of the country, police brutality was celebrated and it was considered that it was necessary to get 'harder' on Black communities, unions were actively disparaged, etc etc etc etc etc etc.
It’s very much not a war. It’s a slow, inevitable collapse into fascism
Oh, okay, we've just been collapsing for [checks notes] 200+ years, and getting less and less authoritarian all the while. Strange collapse into fascism we're having here.
I remember it well enough. Calling LGBT folk slurs was regarded as normal and funny, marital rape was still legal in multiple states, the ‘compromise’ position of LGBT folk in the military was “Stay in the closet and you’re allowed to serve”, supporting gay marriage was anathema to literally 90% of the country, police brutality was celebrated and it was considered that it was necessary to get ‘harder’ on Black communities, unions were actively disparaged, etc etc etc etc etc etc.
And unions were crushed even further, people got even poorer while the rich took over everything, multiple new wars, economic shocks and crises. But ye it's OK because corporations celebrate pride day now because they can sell you stuff.
Not to mention that the progress of LGBT rights had nothing to do with voting for the right politicians and rather with the pressure of activists towards capital and the general progressiveness of society. The proof to that is that LGBT rights continued improving all through the Bush era just as much.
and getting less and less authoritarian all the while.
Are you even thinking of the same country? Even Lego inadvertedly captured the massive police state the US is turning into. The protests that happened at the turn of the century and in the 2010, are now destroyed with extreme prejudice before they start.
... public support for unions in the 90s was much, much lower than it is today, by some 20%, while union membership has stagnated rather than decreased since 2000.
people got even poorer while the rich took over everything,
Real wages have stagnated, that's not the same as getting poorer. The fact that this is a recent development should very much inform you that who's in office matters.
multiple new wars,
That's a curious accusation to level along with "The ruling puppet doesn't matter!" considering the influence of the Bush administration on that particular subject.
economic shocks and crises.
Do... do you think economic shocks and crisises didn't happen before now...?
On the contrary, I assure you they were much worse.
Are you even thinking of the same country? Even lego inadvertedly captured the massive police state the US is turning into. The protests that happened at the turn of the century are now destroyed with extreme prejudice.
... what.
Not to mention that the progress of LGBT rights had nothing to do with voting for the right politicians and rather with the pressure of activists towards capital and the general progressiveness of society. The proof to that is that LGBT rights continued improving all through the Bush era just as much.
I am disappointing with Lemmy's population. I would expect all these "Biden is bad in one thing but good in the rest" mentality so advocating to vote for him regardless.
First, the "thing" is not minor thing... is a crucial matter where the life of millions of people are completely dispossessed of protection and justice.
Second; There are third candidates... Of course, they don't have a chance and it will be, apparently, a waste of a vote... but only for this November elections! But, if a third candidate, with a genuine distinct message, gets 10-15% of the vote, future candidate will see an incentive to be independent in the future too... Gosh, even both Dem and Rep will be more cautions next time around.
The worse we can do, is to vote the same thing over and over, let alone no voting at all. There is nothing more the duo party loves the most!
Encourage those alternative voices, the founding will come alone if hope is there... maybe not in 2024 but for midterms and 2028.
Also, I miss some conservative voices in here (and I am not one!)... I bet there are some non-mainstream ones that could greatly benefit Lemmy's ecosystem too.
Anything to excuse biden and his support for genocide. No need to put pressure on the guy supporting genocide, just on the people who won't toe the line. If you've ever wondered how the holocaust could've been allowed to happen, just look in the mirror.
The 6 Palestinians I know (from protests in the US), 2 in Gaza and 1 in the West Bank they all tell me they could care less Biden vs Trump, But if has to be one... with Trump there is more chances of change in the region, even at the cost of more lives. Besides, it will be far easier to regional countries and the European ones to distance from a link between Trump's US and Israel.
As a non-American who will never set foot in the US, & as a neutral on the World order, I wish Trump wins, news has been boring, we need some entertainment & it's fun to see the bully being scared, & of course nobody loves bullies. The whole of the world is waiting for you to fuck up, so don't disappoint
But on a serious note, all of you citizens of US need to stop bullshiting yourselves & vote for a third independent party, if your are not going to do it, nobody will, the two parties are the same, you all know that, you think they will change it for the good of the country?? They are living their best lives, they would watch their so called "beloved country" burn in blazing fire than change for the people, the past 70 yrs shows as this
Nah I'm gonna vote Trump because all you pussies lack the backbone to vote for a real politician because you're scared only Biden can beat Trump. At least the fucking Republicans know what they want.
On one hand, you have people who are mostly comfortable with letting Palestinians die. On the other, people who openly talk about nuking them.
You have a group of people who may be willing to throw minorities under the bus. And you have another group that is waiting for the opportunity to do so and make it law.
Both choices are terrible, I agree, but there is one that is a clear better over the other. It sucks, but you have to accept that it's the way it is for now and you are not going to pull some third party out of your ass. That is going to have to wait for now. You have to make a decision between the lesser of two evils.
I'm counting on you, Americans. As a trans woman from a European country which political climate is heavily influenced by yours, I can quite confidently say that my rights are in your hands.
Quite frankly, I can't think of a more terrifying thought, but it is what it is.
Don't fuck this up. Please.
I know as Americans we consider ourselves the center of the universe but this is one of those things that warrant it.
With Trump's last win we saw Argentina, Belarus, Brazil, Philippines, Australia, and Italy (just naming a few) in power crazy nut jobs. Attacking your community, immigrants, and the poor bc the US had someone spouting shit daily and being racist/anti immigrant was openly supported. It is like a virus, it spreads.
I hope we crush is attempt to be president again but you never know. We need the young people and millennials to vote. It's hard though.
Stay safe and I hope we have a bright future to look forward too.
If you argument is that US presidents set global trends than see exhibit a) Palestinians for the future of how the U.S. and other western countries will treat their citizens and how institutional power will utterly deny it the entire time.
If Biden does not stop this genocide now a new era of violence is being normalized and in conjunction with climate change destroying food security and access to clean water it is going to be very very dark.
If Biden does not budge on Palestine even though there is a strong and clear signal from the American people to do so than we have already lost and people upset at me for not not voting for Biden (if he continues to refuse to budge) are yelling into the void.
I agree we have a lot of issues but we can fix them if we decide to. I could agree that the Vietnam war / civil rights period was worse. We pulled ourselves out of that but we failed to learn from it. People got complainant and money started to flow so everyone accepted it.
By not voting we will see something worse. The Republicans have said multiple times they want to wipe the Palestinians off the earth. They want Russia to succeed in Ukraine. Civil rights wiped away. The environment set on fire. That is a lot worse than now.
Putting our hands up and saying nothing can be done is a farce. By doing nothing we are complicit. Vite like people's lives are on the line bc they are. Next election vote for a local candidate with more "extreme"(national healthcare , universal schooling, climate protection plans...etc) views. That is how you change stuff. You keep doing that until the top is like the bottom.
Is that how the United States was created?
That was the original belief system. They just had a couple of massive flaws, slavery and genocide.
The United States was created because there was no democratic representation for the US colonies in Britain's parliament, genius.
Is there democratic representation for the working class in an oligarchy like the United States?
"I failed my High School Civics class on purpose" energy in this question.
Are you worried about Biden winning? This is not even a question. Understand everything you wrote there is 1000x worse under trump. The things you're talking about fixing can only happen under Biden.
Seriously, it's no joke that it's exactly the same message as russian propaganda to say 'biden loves genocide, don't vote'. If anyone thinks that's actually the path to a better tomorrow they're useful idiots.
I dunno it seems pretty much the same as the old era of violence to me, where Israel was still occupying the region and still doing a genocide and a million Iraqis died in a meaningless war for oil rights to avoid gas prices climbing by 5 bucks
Those things you mention WILL GET WORSE under Trump.
Not voting Biden is a vote for Trump. Your protest WILL fuck things up.
Get off your high horse and vote Biden.
the american votership is very emotional. they don't think about the future. they vote how we feel right now.
hence why we are like this. biden will lose if the is a economic downturn, for example.
No matter who wins this November, Palestinians are still going to suffer from this genocide, because neither side is going to stop Israel. It’s not going to be better or worse with Trump, because those people are still going to be dead, and the only difference is how long they have to suffer before they die. Arguing over which death is more humane is shockingly immoral of us.
As Americans, we don’t get to absolve ourselves from that guilt by voting for Biden. We’re directly responsible for allowing our nation to come to the point where this is our only choices. Israel may be dropping the bombs, but it’s America that’s killing them. We’re voting for the lesser evil, but evil is still evil, it’s all the same, and you and I, and every other American, are guilty as hell for it. We’re all mass murderers, and we’re all sleeping soundly at night.
Because we voted for the lesser evil.
It's not going to be better or worse with the guy who wants them to 'finish the job' and famously broke with even usual conservative orthodoxy to support Israeli genocide?
Whether it’s the guy who wants them to kill every Palestinian, or the guy who is gonna sit there and let them kill every Palestinian while wringing his hands and reaffirming the unconditional support for Israel, the Palestinians are still dead and murdered. The fact that you’re arguing that one side is better is absolutely fucking absurd.
Alright, what about the guy who is reducing US weapons aid to Israel vs. the guy who is in favor of INCREASING weapons aid to Israel?
Oh, what am I saying? Silly me, thinking policy has consequences.
And then...
https://apnews.com/article/us-israel-arms-gaza-ebe971ca8878ff430ce6458c04151585
Right? Is the "reducing US weapons aid to Israel" in the room with us right now??
Does that sound like a lot to you or something?
In what realm is 1 billion dollars not a lot of money? Also whether or not it's "a lot" wasn't even what the contention was about... OP said Biden was reducing weapons aid to Israel and the above comment proves that's not true.
yeah and? so what?
should i vote for the greater evil?
if kill 20 people, i might as well kill 2000 right, what's really the difference?
that's... not how it works. your vote is not an endorsement. plenty of people will openly protest against support of Israel while voting for Biden. you can actually break it down to pragmatic logic instead of the entirely incorrect broad strokes that you have done.
also your take smells like bot farm propaganda.
Congratulations you've been re programmed by tiktok to think cheetoman is the same as sleepyjoe
Biden is actively sending more weapons to Israel right this moment. The difference between Trump and Biden is that Trump hasn’t gotten a chance to actively participate and support genocide yet, and Biden has not only done that, but continues to express unwavering support for that genocide. So you’re right, Biden and Trump aren’t the same. They might be, if Trump wins this November, but right now Biden is objectively worse.
Nah. I voted for the lesser evil my whole life and the DNC decided they get to decide the president rather than the people.
Burn it all
That's how I felt in 2016.
We can all see how well that worked out. Never again.
No, no, I've been assured that Trump was no worse than any other president, it's all the same, you see. Both Sides!
that's nice if you actually burn anything. if you just don't vote then you're just going to get stomped by fascists. either you actually commit to that level of action or you get rolled by those that do.
that's just an empty welcome to the fascists of it's not backed by meaningful planned action. the only way what you said will work is of you're ready to fucking go the second trump wins. he's not leaving otherwise. so either you're in a militia or you're pathetic and part of the problem.
amen. that's why the left is so bad, politically, and the right is, well better. they whine but keep voting. the leftists just whine and do nothing and get mad that the guy they didn't vote for didn't win.
Literally every grievance they have can be answered with "well then why didn't you vote in <X primary/off year election> where a candidate who would have answered that grievance if not built momentum towards one who would was running?"
If they spent a percent of the energy voting that they did whining about why they don't want to, Bernie would have won the 2016 primary handily, along with a slate of progressive challengers at his back.
If you want to burn it all, don't be surprised if you end up burning down with it.
lmao
I guess it's nice when you lot go mask off.
So you're gonna sulk. Cool
I'm sorry which side of that debate says we should have counted donations instead of the actual votes?
All but outright saying "only the bougie white kids should count at the polls!" and yet somehow the DNC are the ones who are the threats to democracy and subverting the will of the people because they checks notes counted the ballots cast for all the candidates in the race.
Just about figures that the "voting bad!" screechers think that voting in the primary is somehow putting the fix in.
As a trans person in America, shut the fuck up 😀
Hey, if you'd rather have the Republicans open fascists in power, you do you. I question your survival instincts, but still. I just hope you're just a tiny vocal minority, otherwise we might be all fucked. Or, if you're not a vocal minority... well, I hope you're right and I'm wrong.
We'll see I guess.
Trans people are under attack with our current administration. No reason to fear a future that's already happening.
I love it. It doesn't matter that Biden has consistently supported trans rights with tangible action during his administration, trans people are still under attack, so it's Literally All The Same. Like people who ask why there are still fires if there are firefighters.
The tangible actions he waited until his final year of the term to enact, that are instantly being challenged by states. That's not consistent and it's hardly tangible. You're not going to tell me that my own struggles are worth ignoring a genocide.
So which is it? He hasn't done anything or he waited too long in his term? How does any of this even compare to the other guy??? Sometimes I wonder if you guys are smoking shrooms because you make no sense
He waited too long to do barely anything. It's okay if reading comprehension isn't your strong suit.
It's funny. I've had this song and dance before. When I break out previous actions towards guaranteeing trans rights, it immediately shifts from "It was too late in his term" to "Well it wasn't enough".
I said both of those things! 😀 It was too late and also not enough! 😀
Biden can't control right wing wackadoo legislation.
Assertion: You live in an entrenched two party system.
Scenario: Only concerning ourselves with voting, which party do you vote for?
I bring this up as a person in America who has beliefs that do not fit into either of the two parties. Some of my preferred policies are backed by one party, some are backed by the other, some are backed by neither.
I take action beyond voting like working to switch the voting system to approval voting, but I'm going to limit the discussion to voting because that's the bare minimum everyone should do and your vote won't be contextualized by the candidates, it will look identical to all the other votes.
Lmao a centrist? 😂😂😂
A reasonable guess, but no. My politics aren't relevant, I'm asking you who you're gonna vote for.
Your politics are relevant because if you think that Republicans/Democrats both have enticing policies, your values are so so far from mine that we don't have the same political goals. So I won't be engaging in conversation with you as if we did.
There are many political tools at your disposal. Voting is one of them. Not voting does not affect change. Unless your political views are "I don't give a shit" voting is a positive use of your time even if you're doing other things outside of voting.
So again I ask: who are you voting for?
I never said I wasn't voting, but also I totally understand why many people do not. I already told you I don't want to chat about this, because I think you and I aren't aligned whatsoever and it's useless to discuss political strategy. It's weird that you keep demanding I answer a question ... like I care?? About answering you?
One wants you to boil alive slowly and the other wants to dismember you with a chain saw.
We need to vote for the boiler and hope we can convince him not to turn up the heat again.
But also, if we're in bright red or blue states voting has no impact on the end result. It's just a way to wash our hands of the guilt of supporting the other guy.
That's crazy, because I assumed you could also vote and that voting was the only real solution.
Are American votes now the only votes that matter?
lmao
Just because you believe that voting cannot be part of any solution doesn't mean the rest of us just believe the exact opposite. What are you, in grade school?
It can only be a solution in a state with a functional democracy. Texas does not have that.
All I hear is complaints. Why not aim some of your misgivings towards a solution instead of screeching constantly?
All I hear is "vote harder" and "leftists did this", from a state where Biden is down 20 points.
Ask me that on the HISD picket line.
No.
One is consisting of unimaginative and incompetent people, and people that want to do things but cannot due to the another group.
The other group is consisting of outright vile people that get off of other people's suffering, religious fanatics that need some "noble lies" about things like trans people otherwise "they'll throw away eternal happiness of the afterlife for the temporary happiness of this life", and "good willing conservatives" that are fooled by the meaning of the word and think "even if all this turns out to be real hatred, the next government can just unlegislate the law".
We had 8 years of the former in Hungary. The latter convinced enough "good willing conservatives" to vote for them. We no longer can "unvote" them, for another government to "unlegislate" horrible laws, and no government will unsteal money stolen by Fidesz oligarchs, unexpel kids from high school because Fidesz lowered the education age, and undo the countless other harm caused by them.
I don't think a "world wide worker's revolution" is coming. If it's coming, it'll be in current China style, and I got enough of mediocre dictators wanting to form society to their liking. If it will be somehow good, it still can't undo the harms of the current system. And if the rise of Nazism didn't lead to the second coming of Rosa Luxemburg, I doubt the current rise of fascism will lead to anything like that, and leftist movements can be easily crushed by a police state in their cradles. Hell, all they need is widespread alcoholism and overwork, like in Hungary where they weaponize doomerism.
Sadly, the Pete Buttigiegs and Krysten Sinemas of the world are fiercely competent in their pursuit of climbing up the political ladder and cashing out at the public's expense.
The former paved the way for the latter. Perestroika opened the gates to the neoliberal barbarians, and when they were done looting the country it was ripe for a fascist revival. Every "we have to vote for the lesser of two evils" concession accumulated a bit more evil. And what you're left with is a mafia in place of a government precisely because compromise after compromise whittled away everything the country had going for it.
I don't think Biden wins this next election. Not for all the screaming and left-shaming and "but Trump is worse"ing on the internet. Biden's 2020 coalition is hemorrhaging conservatives as fast as its hemorrhaging college leftists. He can't win Arizona, Nevada, or Georgia a second time now that he's pissed away domestic good will on hundreds of billions in foreign military aid.
Rosa Luxemburg was killed in 1919, by the German State Police, as they sought to quell student protests. She was arrested by the Freikorps and tortured before their execution. This was the year before the formation of the NSDAP. The leaders of the Shanghai Commune of 1927 suffered a similar fate under Chiang Kai-shek eight years later. It was Luxemburg's death, and the exile of Zhou Enlai, that heralded the ascension of the then-modern fascist movement.
This occurred under moderate governments. One might even call them Bidenesque. They cleared a path for the fascism that swept through China and Germany over the next decades under ostensibly liberal democratic rule.
What we're seeing in Palestine and Ukraine and Argentina and India - and reflected in Columbia and UCLA and UT@A, via a militant police backed by far-right local militias - is a tide of fascism that won't be stopped by a bunch of liberal enablers. Hundreds of Rosas are dying to Israel bombs. Hundreds more are being rounded up and brutalized by American police. They'll keep appearing, because this amount of pain and fear is intolerable, and has to be resisted at all costs.
And if you think that resistance to fascism amounts to
then I gotta question what you're going to do now that fascism is on your doorstep.
Funny way of saying "Quelling an armed uprising that Rosa Luxemburg herself had voted against", but honesty isn't your strong suit, I know.
Joe Biden killed Rosa Luxemburg.
Here I thought it was Bernie Sanders.
I’m voting for the lesser of the two evils, which is Blue, in yet another fucked up election. Read your damn history, the US politicians, Blue and Red, always give Israel a blank check for weapons to continue the family blood feud over lots of dried up rocks. Do your civil duty and vote.
If everyone who says that gets more active at the local level, we have four years to make the choices different next time around.
People generally don't like actually participating in democracy. And fuck, who can blame them? The essential feature of changing policy in a democratic polity is the hard, arduous, thankless fucking task of fighting an apathetic or actively hostile majority. You don't get to be a hero. You don't get recognition. You may not even see any change at all from your own, personal efforts, sometimes not even locally. Success is measured on the scale of decades. It's fucking miserable. There's no sudden wave of support to ride to victory, there's no cheering crowds showing your opposition how utterly defeated and isolated they are, like you once were; there's no moment of vindication. It's nothing but struggle, toil, and tedium.
Yet, that is how societies change.
The TikTok ban flew through. The '08 bank bailouts passed practically overnight. War bills for rammed through in a matter of months. Weapons deals are routine and tax cuts happen under every presidency.
The corrupt legislation doesn't need to walk this arduous road. And corporate lobbyists regularly tout their jetset cocaine and hooker lifestyle.
This is the real face of American democracy. Not an army of petitioners fighting bad weather and apathetic crowds to scrap out civil rights from a clumsy bureaucracy. It's dudes in $10k suits wooing senators in wine caves and beach resorts. And those same senators denouncing their constituents as greedy, lazy, ignorant slobs when a protest over the latest turd of a legislative package comes through.
Sorry that the miserable task of democracy doesn't appeal to you. Maybe you can find somewhere where you can just parrot the Party Line and be happy with the Great Leader? I hear the PRC is nice.
Imagine being this angry at a country with cutting edge mass transit, modern health care, and a retirement age of 54
Keeping licking those boots, I'm sure your social credit score will serve you well in the future. Cretins like you adore fascism, after all.
I mean, imagine simping for a state currently involved in a genocide, putting hundreds of thousands of Muslims in concentration camps and executing them at will. And imagining that you're better than the Israeli simps?
If you think that's bad, wait until you hear about Native American reservations and the origins thereof.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Indian_boarding_schools
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_genocide_in_the_United_States
My guy, you can't walk through a college campus in the US without getting gang tackled by police.
Interesting.
Is this how the United States was created?
I thought that the Fourth of July was celebrating some other type of event
Ah yes, that act of violent revolution that inexorably sent the US down a path to manifest destiny and the civil war
Definitely a perfect model for a modern movement for significant political change!
The American Revolution was the result of some 40 years of agitating and politiking to change popular opinion, and ended with a ramshackle government where everyone hated one another and was entirely dysfunctional for half a decade, at which point a series of compromises no one was happy with and the only unambiguously popular figure in the nation came together to make the US Constitution, which everyone at the time hated. At which point we struggled for the next 20 years with lingering monarchist and loyalist sentiment, and then for the next 50 with anti-democratic and secessionist sentiment.
The change from a British colony to an independent country was (largely) not guns and fireworks. It was comprised of convincing people on the ground to take a different view than the one they grew up with; a slow, miserable, thankless process. And the part of it that was guns and fireworks was not nearly so glorious and momentous, nor spontaneous, as it is often pretended.
I did not suggest that there is anything glorious about violent revolution wherein untold numbers of human beings are murdered.
However, barring that violent revolution, the most powerful and wealthy country in the history of the world would not currently exist.
My point is that it is inaccurate to act like the slow progress of incrementalist democratic reforms is the only way for societal conditions to progress. If anything, those sorts of nonrevolutionary improvements, such as with Mandela in SA, are historical aberrations rather than norms.
The current global superpowers of the United States, China, and Russia were all formed by violent revolution. Secondary powers, such as Australia, Canada, Israel, etc, were formed through violent settler colonialism. And yet, despite this lack of democratic negotiation and mediation, these are the states that largely control the world.
Peaceful adherence to norms and consensus may have arguably established the Nordic model of social democracy and high living standards. However, in terms of global power politics, it seems to leave something to be desired. Violence has consistently led to a change in conditions, and oftentimes, an improvement in those conditions. If we disagree with that then we disagree with the essence of the United States itself - in which case, voting for neoliberal moderation with the Democrats seems to be missing the point entirely
Under that same logic, democratic governments are historical aberrations rather than norms. So why are you trying to apply a concept of how history 'normally' is to historical aberrations?
Formed by violent revolution against non-democratic polities.
Or maybe all the Nordic countries combined have less than a third of the population of the UK alone and didn't even develop into democratic polities until the 20th century?
Nah, it's gotta be because they didn't found their prosperity on violence, not that stupid 'material conditions' stuff.
"The US was founded on violence because of the lack of democracy, therefore, voting in a democratic system instead of using violence is missing the essence of America."
Do you even listen to yourself
The US has a representative democracy. We elect people by voting so that those people can represent our beliefs in the action of government without us being there to make sure our voice is heard and considered.
While I agree that everyone should be more involved in civics, especially at a local level, it's not really efficient for a society to implement a vanilla democracy. There are lots of other jobs like generating food/removing waste, generating energy/removing pollution, constructing/maintaining housing, transporting people including democratic representatives to and fro based on their obligations and desires, entertaining people so they can offset the pain in their lives and continue on with the struggle that is life, defend citizens from others or ourselves, etc.
Having a group of people act out government on our behalf is a good thing because we can specialize in other things to allow them to do so.
This all being said, there has been a disconnect with our representatives and with reality in general, so there is a giant need to reconnect with civic life in the US at all ages and at all levels for that matter.
Yeah, but that requires doing more than just doom posting, and we can't have that now can we? /s
So many of the things people bitch about could be lessened (not necessarily resolved, but ffs, perfect is the enemy of good) by getting involved locally and trying to make things better for themselves and their neighbors. Fuck, even working on 3rd party support locally while stemming the bleeding nationally until there's real ground level support would be better, but I guess we gotta tilt at windmills nationally and ignore the local level to get shut done......
I hate the fucking puritanical autocorrect. You're a computer! Your people didn't travel on the mayflower! You can say shit!
This is not necessarily true right now. Biden has put conditions on arms use, he has been slow walking arms shipments and now has placed a pause on them, however Israel needs to be supported to avoid major wars breaking out in the Mideast. Unfortunately Biden cannot control Netanyahu any more than he can control the orange mobster - both are dangerously deranged.
I don't think this is true, except insofar as "Waving a stick at Iran every now and again" is concerned. And honestly, we do that bare minimum of discouraging aggression for a lot of countries, not all of whom we would consider allies or countries we support.
You're almost in danger of deviating from neoliberal orthodoxy here.
It's almost like I'm not a neoliberal.
If you say so.
I think @rayyy is right, unfortunately. If the West severs ties with Israel overnight (and suddenly stopping arms shipments would essentially be the same thing as severing ties), it'll just create a power vacuum where Russia or China will cosy up to Israel instead. Israel has a lot of influence in the region - partially because it's been propped up by US support, of course - and other countries would absolutely try to prop up Israel and capitalise on their influence in the US' place if they had the opportunity. Which would perhaps slow down the genocide for a little while, but it would inevitably pick back up, but this time without the US/West having any influence at all.
Not to mention the fact that the US losing its influence over Israel would almost certainly destabilise the region. Iran would be emboldened, as you alluded to. Hamas would be emboldened, and while I take the side of the Palestinian people in this whole ordeal, I don't think Hamas being emboldened would be a good idea - it would likely lead to further conflict and even worse suffering for the Palestinian people. Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Turkey would all likely try to expand their influences, too.
Biden is trying to slowly reel Israel in while still maintaining US influence there. Partially because the US just wants to keep its power, of course, but also because it's perhaps the best way to have some control over the genocide and over the region rather than just being an observer. I don't like all the blood on our collective hands but I think that, at this point, the genocide would continue without us.
I absolutely think the fact that Israel has been put in the position it's in represents decades of shortsightedness and foreign policy failure, though. Israel should never have been in the position to do this.
Keep protesting from now to the future until we get shit done, but vote Biden regardless. We're stuck with this choice cause this is the only least worst option we have, voting red is just shooting oneself in the foot. Wish Bernie was still an option.
Also fuck the electoral college.
Not voting because bOtH pArTiEs ArE tHe SaMe, even after the goddamned 2016-21 dark ages, is the leftist version of anti-vaxx anti-mask. Too many people seem to be equally lazy plus self-centered equals stupid, in all directions.
Whether it's about putting a piece of cloth on your face or voting, they're special; above it all; they know what the truth is, and we're the dumb ones for not seeing it, we're the dumb ones for doing something, for choosing a path of effort/inconvenience/civic duty instead of inaction. And we are the mindless herd to them.
EDIT: Then you tell them that republican and russian troll farms are flooding their discussions, concern trolling about genocide while russia itself is invading Ukraine with genocidal intentions, with the explicit intent to get them to not vote because they are manipulable in bad faith, and do they seem to care?
Voting for someone who is less bad is harm reduction. You can do harm reduction, while loudly proclaiming that it fucking sucks there’s not a better option, and working to provide better options.
I hate Biden. But I hate (and fear) the prospect of a second trump term more.
I'm the person in another country worried about how even the meager progress towards tackling climate change will be enthusiastically and vigorously reversed out of spite thoroughly double fucking the rest of us for good.
The lion's share of progress isn't happening in the West. It's reforms happening in East Asia and new cleaner development happening in Latin America and Africa.
Western states are hobbled by legacy infrastructure they refuse to replace. What progress they have made has been driven by cheap imports. And they're going to halt those imports to protect legacy industry
Can western states start stealing eastern IP and marketing it now?
If the tables have turned, it makes sense if genocide Joe is genociding those Palestinians, China finished with their uighur 'issue' and the poor destitute west only knows how to copy moves from the 'big glorious leaders' in the east 🤡
You think we haven't been, already?
What is the Rafa of Xinjiang?
Beijing sends in construction workers and factory managers and Mandarin teachers, and westerners call it genocide. Tell Aviv sends bombers to demolish hospitals and snipers to double tap relief workers, and we send cops to cave your face in when you object.
Go back and review the Hong Kong riots. Compare them to Columbia and UCLA.
If Tianamen happened in DC today, the news media would call the guy in front of the tank a Russian antisemite and the tank commander a pussy for failing to flatten him.
What a tasty boot!
lmao, loving the downvotes for calling out literal genocide denial. Stay classy.
The Americans invaded Afghanistan and kicked off a flood of refugees over the Chinese border. We dropped thousand pound bombs to flatten whole villages when we suspected a member of the Taliban was in residence. And we conducted this butchery for decades, killing 12-year-old boys while labeling them "Fighting Age Males". Turning school children into prostitutes to satisfy the baser instincts of our occupying military and allied warlords. Crushing a son's testicles to extort confessions from his father.
And we never thought to call it genocide.
When Beijing invests billions in the industrialization of its most rural provinces? That's where we draw the line.
Who is licking boot again?
lmao
You, as you keep demonstrating.
Are we selling weapons for China to genocide Uighurs with?
I don't mean to be paranoid but sometimes I think about who benefits most from conflict and division on the American Left, and whether they have the resources to artificially sow mistrust of reliable news and advance an agenda that benefits Russian interests.
Some of the nutjobs on Lemmy are actively hoping for another four years of Donald. A collapsing America helps China gain territory.
Not sure how they are so dimwitted as to want openly racist fascists heading up such a large nuclear arsenal. But dimwitted as they are, a good portion of the bothsidesing is deliberate.
Best to block .ml and pretend they do not exist
100%. Would be nice if you could block all the users as well as all the posts from an instance.
Unfortunately they not only exist, they also vote.
Blocking them is good for personal mental health but does not in any way solve the problem. It just leaves them to fester inside their own echo chambers.
They're going to fester in their own echo chambers with or without your involvement.
The times these users seem to operate in is suspicious
This seems to be a recurring fear among pro-Biden Democrats.
No real regard for Palestine or pregnant women in Texas or Trans people anywhere, but this absolute terror over Chinese economic influence spreading across East Asia.
It feels like the Dem policy is just "We need Biden to fight more of the correct wars America needs to be in".
And that's what I'm afraid a second Biden term will bring.
We've seen one term of an insurrectionist filling 1/3 of SCOTUS with corrupt and unqualified shitheads. They are already taking away the rights of my neighbors and aiming for more. I know why I am against Donald and it has nothing to do with China.
I'm still struggling to figure out why so-called "leftists" on Lemmy want full authoritarian fascism. When they are telling me any amount of collateral damage is fine as long as large numbers of white Americans get murdered, and their comment history is full of wanking over socialism with Chinese characteristics, that's the conclusion I am going to draw.
Because they crave fascism, but they're too cowardly to admit it out loud.
Don't worry, I'm sure your favorite totalitarian state will be more than happy to let you lick their blood-stained boots. :)
Call Texas totalitarian all you want. I'm just going to keep fighting to make it better.
Whoever it is is probably paying a lot of these people who "care deeply about Palestinians"
I'm not American, but I am fascinated by the cognitive dissonance it takes for these People who claim to be progressive to chart a path that clearly puts Trump in office while claiming they're fighting for the very people that Trump has already banned from being in America.
Trump would be bad for America and for the world, but a part of me wants to see y'all elect him again, just out of curiosity. The stupidity knows no bounds.
Yeah but the world will know about their adorable little "protest vote" and how Biden just didn't "do it" for them.
That will be our nation's epitaph.
Bibi wants Biden to lose so he can show the world what actual genocide looks like.
Really feels like Israel is trying to do the old Russian misinformation game even on Lemmy these days to try and suppress blue votes on a single wedge issue because they know it’s the only way to get Trump elected and get more guns and bombs than they’re already getting, and they wouldn’t get pushback at all for Rafah or any warnings of any sort, just a blank check for wanton genocide.
Like I don’t like what’s happening in Palestine, but I don’t want to make it worse by pretending a non vote would somehow help them. Helping them would be ensuring that the party least likely to enable Israel the most is elected. That’s Joe Biden. Some people have ridiculous nicknames for him but my god wait until they make this look like restraint if Trump gets elected. Palestine would cease to exist almost immediately and Israel will de facto annex it, like Russia is trying to do in Ukraine.
So really you can vote to minimize the pain and suffering of Palestinians or you can not vote to minimize the pain and suffering of Palestinians. Personally I’m gonna vote to minimize the pain and suffering of Palestinians, and also support the environment (again not to the degree I desire), and support abortion access, and trans rights, and taxes for the wealthiest Americans, and, the list goes on, but yeah, I’m gonna vote for Joe Biden.
I just love the white self proclaimed leftists who insist that they're the only ones in all of America who truly take the threat of fascism as seriously as needed and yet their advocated course ot action is to let the fascists get everything they want but blame it on the people actually trying to stop them for not catering enough to white self proclaimed leftist interests.
They'll still be singing the tune of how one day the DNC establishment will totally learn their lesson this time if we protest vote at the election the Christnats are holding as a sham, singing it all the way as they get frog marched to the gas chambers ahead of everyone they let the fascists kill first.
Not to sound like a Twitter wokescold or whatever, but Shaun does this all the time. A cishet white guy from England who won't be affected in any way by the outcome of the U.S. election, yet constantly tweets and retweets about how the Democrats and Republicans are totally equally bad and voting makes no difference.
But when we look at what Republicans are doing and saying like...
Trump saying he'll be a "dictator for one day"
His lawyers arguing that a president killing an opponent should be considered an official act protected by law
The potential Republican vice-candidate bragging about shooting a puppy and other farm animals
Reports that DeSantis enjoyed torturing people at Guantanamo
Multiple Republican politicians and pundits calling for the eradication of trans people
I think this take doesn't hold up. It's no coincidence that many of the people with this mentality are also the ones who'll be minimally affected by a Republican presidency, if at all.
Who is Shaun
Skull boy
https://twitter.com/shaun_vids
I agree with everything here except giving air to an annoying ass term like "wokescold". That's just something invented to try and reverse (completely justified usually) shaming
The fact that it's even close is an indictment of the American people.
Yeah... Pretty much this, only worse.
My biggest concern right now is the Presidential Immunity ruling that the SC won't announce until they know who will be getting it.
That's bullshit. Biden must win so they can shoot the idea down. If Trump wins, they WILL crown him dictator, and Democracy is lost.
Disclaimer: I'm Australian so I only have a relatively small stake in this, and I'm pretty solidly in the do vote camp.
All that said, I find myself really empathizing with the frustrations I've seen expressed by those who won't vote. Again I don't agree with not voting, I just see there is humanity behind it. It makes me weep that you need to fight about this in the first place, we have preferential voting so it's not an issue at all here, you can vote independent and still prevent the right from taking office.
I hope you all make it through this safely and that you have no regrets in the end. Please look after each other, solidarity is our strength.
Hey but the protest voter is morally clean while anyone else sUpPoRtS gEnOcIdE
Cishet white man me livin my life after trump gets elected
Forever one election away from fascism. The real single-issue voting.
And they kept on voting blue and both parties kept on getting more reactionary and moving the center to the right ad infimum...
Protest voters downvoting this: YoU cAn’T bLaMe Me FoR tRuMp!
Fucking morons, the lot of them.
Well you choose to blame the people instead of blaming Biden who can end all of this today and end up winning in a landslide.
The fact that Biden chooses to risk a Trump administration over ending a genocide should be very concerning to the average voter, but Americans of course rather blame the people than their elites. Same shit like with anti Union stances.
Just because I’m blaming protest voters doesn’t mean I’m not blaming Biden. His hands are in no way clean here and his handling of the situation in the Middle East has been horrendous.
All that being said though, I choose realism over idealism. We have a FPTP electoral system in the US. This inevitably results in a binary choice. Come Election Day, every voter is either choosing to enable Biden’s neoliberalism or Trump’s fascism. It is that simple.
I’m making the choice to knowingly be a neoliberal enabler even if I would prefer something else. The reason being is that any other choice makes me a fascist enabler, same for 100% of protest voters whether or not they choose to bury their heads in the sand about it. As such, I’m entitled to think that they are in fact fucking morons, and plenty of people agree with me.
Yet in many countries Unions are a well established and crucial part of society. Also in the US they used to be more powerful.
And why do they put out so much propaganda against Unions, Environmental protection, etc.? Because they are scared. They know the power people have, if they unite and demand change. We didn't get womens voting and non segregated civil rights from people just voting and being pessimistic. Those were longer struggles, but they worked in the end by not relenting and gaining momentum, until their voices were heard.
I don't know how this delusion became so widespread, but the idea that withdrawing support from Israel is a consensus position even just within the Democratic Party is so utterly divorced from reality that it baffles me.
Twelve downvotes inside of two minutes? Lmao.
https://news.gallup.com/poll/642695/majority-disapprove-israeli-action-gaza.aspx
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/majority-us-democrats-believe-israel-committing-genocide-gaza-poll
And that is in the current media landscape, where the Dems were still defending Israel and downplaying their actions. If they went out to go full documentation, full coverage about war crimes, full rhetoric about who Netanyahu, Ben Gvir, Likud and the other fascists really are...
And we now see the worst yet to come with the invasion of Rafah. The only way Biden and the Dems can salvage this, is if they go 180° now. Otherwise they will just keep losing face to their base, as more and more atrocities become public.
God, I've already been over this - opposition to Israel's current operation is not the same as support for removing aid
You can say that's fucking stupid, and it is - but it doesn't change facts.
So 37% thinking he is in the right balance or too favourable to Palestinians. Leaving 62% who are either convinced that Israel is getting too much favours from the US, or who don't know, which means they are susceptible to changing their position once they get the actual picture of what is going on. Because there is no way that people will switch to become more favourable of Israel now, as the Bodies pile up even higher.
And think of the potential outcomes: If Biden continues to support Israel he risks them going completely out of their way with genocide and by November he has to justify US taxpayer money having killed hundreds of thousands of people, of which there were many American citizens in particular aid workers.
If Biden stops supporting Israel and only provide replenishment for Iron Dome and Missile intercepting systems, Israel would have to retreat and start facing justice at the ICC. But there is no existential threat to them.
I think you overestimate the US electorate's interest in foreign affairs. Or the US electorate's interest in politics in general. Some would flip, probably. But I doubt it would be as quick or as total as many here seem to think. It certainly wouldn't deliver the election to Biden in a landslide.
Let me relay to you a story, that I hope will shed some light on my position in opposition to that assertion. I have a friend, very liberal, as all my close friends are. His dad is, likewise, very liberal. On every major policy issue I've discussed with him, he's been decidedly left-leaning. Public assistance, taxation, infrastructure, education, foreign affairs.
Now, this was waaaay before the Russo-Ukraine War, so Russia was still just some weird far-off place with some ex-KGB guy at the head. No one was thinking anything more of it, but the issue of Russia and recent history and trivia came up, and I started talking about the Moscow Theatre Crisis (or maybe it was the Beslan Siege? either way), making some dark jokes about, you know, 40 terrorists, 100 hostages, 140 bodybags, mission accomplished, in a smarmy kind of way. We got to discussing it seriously, and he up and says that killing the hostages to get at the hostage-takers showed a 'strong leader'.
He was a well-educated guy. Went to college, had a technical job in his field. Reasonably sensitive, fairly liberal, pro-feminist, proud of his very independent daughter, anti-imperialist (when Iraq and Afghanistan were still on everyone's minds), pro-LGBT, very friendly and welcoming, a nerd with nerdy hobbies.
And he still said that showed a 'strong leader'.
Now, the purpose of this isn't to demonstrate some essential failing in my friend's dad - he's a very normal individual. But that's just the thing - many of us in modern society (and certainly much worse in past societies) are socialized to glamorize the most gruesome displays of power, even those of us who would otherwise fall on the more liberal side of things. Those who do not spend significant amounts of time pondering the philosophical implications of politics (ie the vast majority of the active electorate, much less the general population) easily fall into this trap, because it's so ingrained in our society.
If and when the general American population finds out more, many will turn against Israel - but a significant minority will take their brutality as a sign of strength. For the same reason that many in Israel who know the full story also take the brutality as a sign of strength.
I'm in total support of that. Hell, I'm in support of removing aid for the Iron Dome and like systems. But I'm also well-aware that even if Biden changes nothing from this moment onward, it's not worth intensifying the Palestinian genocide and starting a few new ones at home just to show the DNC what for.
No no, if only we were a little nicer to them, THEN they would be our shining heroes who rode in to save us!
Fuck you. I'll vote for whomst I want.
Fuck you back, fascist enabler.
Says the person voting for a genocide enabler. How does that make ANY sense?
I admit I’m enabling the lesser of two evils, you deny enabling the greater of them.
Not voting for either of them is not doing a positive for one of them.
Pick up a civics textbook and figure out why you’re wrong, I’m not going to educate your ignorant ass.
Never asked you to. kthxbai
Shit meme bro!
If you think that the alt right is rising in other countries due to trump, that what the rest of us call American Exceptionalism
We've been at this since before your country existed you daft cunts smh
I've had this conversation with my SO. Technically speaking the best move for me as a white male would be to support Trump. Instead I vote for Democrats hoping for positive changes for all people. For most of my life I've thought I was "far left" for American standards, but since I've joined portions of Lemmy and Reddit you'd think I was a fucking Republican.
Certain portions of the left would rather spit in their own eye for unrealistic principles, even if it means that a worse alternative is the result.
Well, meme, not just not voting, but actively using their energy to attack their allies and help fascism spread.
To my disappointment, all I see from the self-appointed "real left" are people stubbornly trying to get US members to stop voting for the Democratic Party. And dunking on liberals ten times before they say one bad thing about reactionaries.
There could be so much good tankies could do, but instead, they aid the fascists. They treat the ongoing genocide as a just a convenient issue to drive a wedge between progressives. When China was committing genocide on the Uyghurs, tankie spaces on Reddit were talking it down and passing around Chinese propaganda memes. The ongoing genocide by Russia in Ukraine seems fine, too, if not even largely met with approval.
I hope some of those pulled into this web and led astray will yet wake up and use their energies for something positive. For example, there are already states that have adopted ranked choice voting, which will let everyone vote, even for a fringe party, without risking a fascist takeover. It will show, black on white, how many progressives there are that would want politicians to move left. If it was to kick off, it is almost guaranteed to topple the current status quo.
We don't get to vote for a target, just a direction in which to ever so slightly turn. When far off course, every choice will continue to lead in the wrong direction, but over time those small corrections will add up. Hopefully.
Lib king with the fearmongering special.
Lmao at Palestinians feeling less safe. They are getting carpet bombed right now.
I'm all for the protest and the outrage over a genocide, it is all warranted. Biden is proving to be just as blood thirst as most of the politicians that fill D. C.. Come November I will still vote for him. The reason I will vote is due to Trump's in a different category of POS status.
Voting is very important but we focus too much on the presidential and we never look at local and state. We need to reevaluate what we are trying to accomplish. I believe the president position has ran it's course and needs to be done away. I believe we need a complete redesign of our federal and even state systems. Popular votes, rank choice, and possible EU redesign with states breaking up might be options.
Nothing should be off the table due to traditions and "what would the founding fathers think" arguments. 200 years ago we believed spirits caused mental health issues and cocaine helped soothe babies. Not smart by today's standards.
If we are to believe Biden at his word that Trump will attempt a fascist coup regardless of election results, why is he spending his time banning tik tok instead of truth social?
Nah, I trust trump's own words about what another trumpian term would be like, has remarkably little to do with the other one.
Because there is a legitimate security reason to ban Tiktok, while banning Truth Social for supporting a fascist would run up against the 1st Amendment.
Because there's rare bipartisan agreement on banning Tiktok due to the security risks presented by the Chinese government.
Because the Tiktok ban is unrelated to the election. As evidenced by the normally hyperpartisan GOP being onboard.
Because Biden is a democrat, small d, and believes that elections should be largely free and fair, and silencing the opposition is neither. Yes, including if the opposition consists of fascists.
Because that would feed into the right-wing narrative of "The DEMS are OPPRESSING US" which can sway low-information voters with singular high-profile incidents repeated loudly and often.
Get real man. Tik Tok was never about China. It was always about silencing support for Palestinians. This is known.
Why do I feel like you're the type to argue that fascist rhetoric is protected under the 1st amendment? If you think fascists deserve a platform, you are the bad guy. This is liberalism.
This makes you look so uninformed it is literally causing me to cringe. The ban was proposed several years ago, by republicans originally.
What the absolute fuck. When you say something so uninformed, it makes me think you actually are just mad about your funny videos and will look for anything else that sounds less pathetic to whine about
And the reason Dems got onboard was because of how much pro Palestine info came from TikTok. Here's a video of mitt mentioning it in passing
https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTLXuRXnT/
Motherfucker, Democrats got on board YEARS AGO because giving an authoritarian government full access to surveil your citizens is a fucking no brainer thing to want to prevent.
All you're doing here is revealing that you've no idea what's been happening in the world. Probably due to endlessly scrolling through 15 second clips.
Ps I will never click a TikTok link, even if it wasn't clearly irrelevant
They got on board but only just voted for it now. Curious lol
Maybe they only put it up for a vote now.
Curious.
Username checks out
Jesus Christ, you really can't stop yourself, can you?
Yeah it's fun messing with people who are wrong. I can't help it 🙂
Not unlike common sense. Commonly held, and very often wrong, because it just appeals to the prejudices and preconceptions of the person repeating it.
Because it literally is. Whether you agree with that or not, the ACLU has gone to bat on the issue and established the issue several times in the highest courts of the land. If you're arguing that Biden should be doing something he doesn't have the power to do, I don't know what to tell you.
So let me get this straight... you hold (one specific reading of) the first amendment to be so sacred, that you'd sooner follow it and allow its dissolution by fascists, than deplatform the fascists who wish to dissolve it?
You'd sacrifice your constitution and nation just so that you could have the moral benefit of having followed it?
This is not the place or time for the argument of the question of how much power the government should have to decide what kind of politics count as unacceptably fascist. This is about Biden - Biden does not have the power nor political support to shut down Truth Social, so why the fuck bring it up?
"Because I haven't won yet so I need to move the goalposts until I make the ball be inside it."
So all of these obstacles that you list as reasons to why Biden is so ineffective - why didn't he just nominate an AG who'd give him a free pass to do anything he wanted - like Trump? Why isn't Biden bending the rule of law to halt fascism?
The answer is because you cling to "precedence" and "civility" so hard that you'd rather see a fascist takeover before a democrat disobeys your precious rules and processes that were set up by 30 year old slave owners. To liberals, the rule of law takes precedence over a fascist takeover. It is bizarre.
It's bizarre that the president isn't a dictator, because otherwise a president who's a dictator could be elected.
That's an interesting point of view.
I don't usually get out here like this, but you're a fucking idiot if that's how you see the situation.
"gEt rEal Man" STFU
Extra panel: Americans with all their guns not using them, yet acting as if shits serious.
Americans own guns because of a mixture of toxic masculinity and a former 'frontier' culture that was reliant on (and permissive of) hunting.
The idea that private gun ownership is going to overthrow an otherwise-functioning government is a delusion peddled by the gun industry.
If things come down to it, it's not going to be whether or not Billy Bob and his friends have an AR-15 in their closets that's going to decide how things go.
The idea isn’t to overthrow a government, although that would be nice.
If one man losing an election can protect so many, surely a more proactive approach would be the best move?
Political violence rarely stabilizes anything, and dead politicians often become martyrs. If you're advocating assassination, you might as well go the whole nine yards and advocate civil war because that's where the dominos are gonna fall once political violence is normalized - or else fascism, if the public has no appetite for civil war.
Why don't you come fix it for us?
Oh, so you don't want to get mowed down by tanks either? Why would you support genocide bro?!
We support Biden because he is willing to be swayed by changing public opinion. Trump just doubles down on things people don't support when confronted. That Trump voters see the left disagreeing with Biden and think "Oh, that means they won't support him" just shows that they believe politicians views are fixed and unchanging.
Yes, let's keep punching left as Democrats lose even the moderates they exclusively cater to now.
Instead, Mr. Biden’s losses are concentrated among moderate and conservative Democratic-leaning voters, who nonetheless think that the system needs major changes or to be torn down altogether. Mr. Trump wins just 2 percent of Mr. Biden’s “very liberal” 2020 voters who think the system at least needs major changes, compared with 16 percent of those who are moderate or conservative. https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/13/us/politics/biden-trump-battleground-poll.html
Remember folks: there are no ramifications of policy in a functioning democracy.
Just vote once every four years for Party.
/s
If Biden doesn't win, it's 100% on him and the DNC for running shit politicians. Fuck you for blaming people refusing to vote for Genocide Joe.
Again: fuck you
Ugh, there is no room for subtlety in the modern meme. Sorry everyone, if you have a message to tell it has to have a punch line. That's the rules.
Any rising fascism inside the US pales in comparison to the actual fascism that is and has been its foreign policy. And that's bipartisan consensus.
Surely punching left will convince leftists that siding with backstabbing liberals will work this time!
I'm likely voting for Biden, for what it's worth, but wouldn't your goals be better served by trying to work with leftists and unalienate them from the electoral process, rather than opting for the shame route? The entire reason why Biden is losing leftist votes is because liberals have been punching left, rather than trying to build a coalition, thus alienating leftist voices.
lmao
Yep, sure, it's definitely been the mean ol' shitlibs- I mean, liberals, who are always punching left. Those poor wittle folk who say "I see literally no difference between liberals and fascists!" just need a nice pat on the head and are definitely willing and eager to work with liberals, if only someone said a few nice words to them.
Sorry for not affording them the respect that fascist enablers apparently 'deserve'.
Glad you could clear up that you aren't actually interested in getting Biden to win, and wish to not build up a coalition.
Licking the boots of fascist enablers doesn't help a coalition. Raising awareness of the vapidity and disingenuity of fascist enablers and their constantly parroted talking points who would never vote for a filthy 'shitlib' anyway is more effective in strengthening the actual voting numbers of a coalition. But you keep playing apologist for the mass murder of minorities.
Calling alienated leftists "fascist enablers" is how you plan to get them to vote for Biden like us? Can't see how that makes any sense, personally.
Reach out and actually try to build a coalition instead of aggressively alienating leftists even further, you're losing Biden votes by doing this.
No, because I'm already well-aware that they're not voting for 'shitlibs' like Biden. Calling self-proclaimed 'leftists' who value purity over the death of minorities fascist enablers is how I let them know they aren't welcome where people with a shred of human fucking dignity are, and to minimize the effect of their dry, repetitive "BOTH SIDES" script.
There are a few knowns here.
There is a growing subsection of the population that currently cannot morally justify voting for an enabler of genocide.
These people would never vote for Trump, because Trump is a more reactionary candidate.
These people do not want fascism, they want Socialism, and thus are alienated by the DNC.
Sounds to me like the correct course of action is to point out the futility of voting for leftist change, and that it might be more strategically viable to vote for Biden over Trump, rather than abstaining or voting PSL, no?
If your goal is truly to get Biden to win, then your goal should be to build a coalition. If you believe the votes of alienated leftists do matter, then you must try to gain their votes.
The fact that you seem to be actively antagonizing them makes it seem like their votes do not matter to you.
I love that you can't even see the contradiction here.
Well, at least I don't need to worry about neither of those. There is nobody worse than Putin.
"It's okay, because I'm a leftist and white!"
Vote or don't but organize internationally
I'm not from the US, and no, I'm not feeling safer with liberal or not. Imperialism is pretty much the same. I don't know what is worse, but I'm sure that in both cases, it would worthless if you have not a strong anti-imperialist and organized movement inside an international organization.
For example, my organization is in the ICL, like the IWW.
"Vote for me, or else"
Lmao no. Threatening us with authoritarian rule isn't going to work. It didn't stop us from doing drugs, and it's not going to force us to vote for you.
The fact you believe many leftists have substantial interest in electoral politics at all tells me exactly how many you actually know.
But bIdEn dOeS nOtHiNg?!
You have no choice but to vote for the genocide enabler. It is the only way to save "democracy." The type of democracy where you have to support the abhorrent to keep out the truly monstrous and if you say you won't, a bunch of self important liberals will pretend it's all your fault and not the parade of geriatric ghouls the party has been nominating
Yes, isn't it terrible when democracy doesn't agree with you? The only TRULY democratic society is one where those pesky proles listen to those who know what's good for them, right?
It's terrible when democracy doesn't agree with damn near anybody
Yes, only a paltry plurality. If only there were a way that the option that even less people agree with could win.
Democracy doesn't work particularly well when the voters are uneducated or otherwise missinformed. That when the country starts doing things that are against its and its own citizens interest. Corruption, legal or otherwise, also contribute to making it disfunctional.
This argument is the justification for the Electoral College.
Really? I thought it was justification to reform and improve education.
So we're just coming out against democracy now when the proles aren't on our side, are we? Great. Glad to see this brave new form of leftism.
Lol what?
Isn't this literally the message of the meme?
No, and I don't really know how you could come to that conclusion, since the meme doesn't say anything about whether any given act or ideal is 'true democracy'.
"If leftists don't vote for Biden they are stupid"
5 minutes later...
"Wow why do you think I'm telling the proles how to vote?"
Yeah, if you allow fascism in order to stop a non-fascist government, you're a fascist enabler.
I didn't realize pointing out consequences of losing a democratic election, and advocating voting for a candidate in that democratic election order to avoid those consequences, was anti-democratic. Thank you for teaching me this, O Great Leftist.
Those pesky proles should just listen to you, since you know what's good for them
As a citizen, it's my duty to speak out against what I feel are bad choices for the polity. I didn't realize advocacy of voting for (or against) a specific candidate or issue through speech was so anti-democratic. I'm learning a lot from you today.
Sick of all these posts throwing guilt on those people sick of an ongoing genocide. What y'all don't realise is at this point where humanity seems.past saving to them, maybe those "people just want to watch the world burn". And they are therefore OK with seeing someone as despicable as Trump win. Just saying that shaming won't get you anywhere in that instance
Biden's approval so low that libs are desperately looking for someone to blame 6 months ahead of time
If leftists are so important to the coalition then maybe Biden should have been trying harder to earn their vote
Elections in the US are won by single-digit percentage points.
If leftists are 2% of the coalition, and anti-leftists are 20% of the coalition, do you think it's reasonable for the leftists to demand total capitulation to them in exchange for their vote? Do you think that a total capitulation to the leftists, in this case, would result in the coalition then having a net... gain in votes?
Sorry that you're so uncomfortable with the way democracy works.
Lol I'd settle even for passive toleration, I don't need 'total capitulation'
Not getting shot at and tazed would be a good start
Okay, I'll tell Biden to put away his taser and stop saying that the Palestinian protesters don't have a point and should be brutally attacked by local police.
He's literally said everything you're sarcastically implying he hasn't said
https://apnews.com/article/biden-silence-college-protests-police-gaza-israel-d5f3092671951c3bc2968b8751c93ba6
Holy shit literal fascism Biden please put the tazer away
He is spreading lies that the protests are dangerous. He is saying they are chaotic when they clearly are not. This is fascism, the fact you can't see that is alarming. You're so, so, deeply brainwashed.
Maybe try telling him criticism of Isreal isn't antisemitic, he seems a little confused about it
Sure thing, let me dial his cellphone and have a chat. /s
Yeah, I remember when he said "Those Palestinian protesters don't have any valid concerns, they're just a bunch of antisemites."
"I condemn the antisemitic protests,” is literally a direct quote lmao.
Ah, I knew that lazy soundbite would come up. You get that from a script, or are you just good at parroting?
Actually Trump was great at delaying the rise of the alt-right in other countries even though tons of money from the likes of the Koch brothers was being thrown at it.
During his presidency Trump really changed the perception of America from "A great nation" to "A large backwards nation", at least here in Europe, which in turn means that people are far less likely to want to emulate it. You will notice, for example, that all those crazy American alt-right fads like the anti-mask and anti-vax manias didn't manage to cross the Atlantic all that well (though some countries in Latin America, such as Brasil which at the time also had a far-right president, did copy some).
Don't get me wrong, Europe is also suffering the consequences of the American Economic Policies that it copied pre-Trump (from Reaganism all the way to how the 2008 Crash was handled) and hence the fall in quality of life and fall in median worker incomes has made the ground fertile for simple ideologies blaming everything on "outsiders", hence the rise of the alt-right, but even it is not at all following the molds of the Trumpist version of it (the closest to it are the Tories in the UK and even they aren't going anti-LGBTA or obcessing about wokishness even though they too have the relentless propaganda of Murdoch's media empire).
Biden's pro-Zionist Genocide posture is just doing the same, only that is mainly amongst the young and more well educated.
Yes, people are unsatisfied with Biden for that one reason and only that reason. Nothing else at all.
"if you don't vote for the genocide guys then you'll get the genocide guys! (Also they've worked to make it super easy to strip leftist orgs of nonprofit status, works in lockstep to move the goalposts if a third party comes close to inclusion requirements, went to court to legally ensure they can run whoever the fuck they want, among plenty of other things - but our narrative depends exclusively on misinformation. We HAVE to call them single issue voters and claim that anybody not voting for Biden is advocating for not voting. Our real enemies aren't Republicans, its leftists, and the time has come to say the quiet part out loud.)"
Don't worry, I'm sure your open hostility towards disengaged leftists will get them to vote again.
Disclaimer: would vote for Biden if I were American.
Edit: Not sure why I thought kicking a hornet's nest would go over well lol.
Bro if Trump is such a threat and all that fascism stuff and you believe that, then why don't you just do what that old hitman did to the Slovak leader
@PugJesus
Yet, people are always saying we only have 2 choices and don't talking about "wasting my vote". If enough people voted 3rd party, it would no longer be a "3rd party".
"If you don't vote for genocide, your actually voting for trump 🤓 "
I'm still voting 3rd party and the blue state I live in will still give genocide Joe my vote so don't worry OP. We'll continue to provide weapons to the country that just has whistle blowers leak evidence on concentration camps. Good to know that concentration camps aren't a deal breaker for you. 😮💨
Good to know that MORE concentration camps isn't a deal-breaker for you to have the smug satisfaction of voting third-party. Who the fuck cares about the support Trump has already promised genocidaires in Israel and the genocide he's promising here in the US? You have to FEEL good about yourself!
I hope we're not in line together at the camps.
Again my state will go blue regardless of who I vote for. I'm gonna vote for someone who is anti-concentration camp, unlike you. I get the electoral college is a little hard for you to understand but again please calm down.
Palestinians are the ones being put in concentration camps not your privileged ass or mine.
Oh hey look it's a real "it can never happen here" out in the wild!
Yeah. Never is a very long time and we're on the fast track to fascism.
It can totally happen here in fact it is. I was just arguing with a bunch of genocide supports from here this morning actually.
I hate Trump. Trump is a fascist. I just don't pretend like Biden and the Dems aren't either. Scratch a liberal fascist bleeds
And you're voting for increased support to Israel. Know what that does?
Speak for your fucking self. Or have you not been paying attention to the current state of the Republican Party?
Yeah, the Republicans are even worse than the dems I know. Just because I'm not afraid to admit that the Dems are backing genocide and it's not going to work out well for them in the election doesn't mean I support the Republicans.
Fuck, do I have to explain to you how the trolley problem works? Is that how basic we're gonna have to get here?
The only thing forcing us to pick a lesser of two evils is the idea that it's the only option we have. Until we get past that, we're going to be locked in this cycle of picking really bad fascist or fascist who only support genocide over seas.
The eagerness you have to keep people in this trap and shame them for trying to do anything else is part of the problem. Until You and everyone else grows up and moves on from that (which is really unlikely) we will be stuck In this cycle.
That's all there is to it.
It's the only option we have because the last time we had a good option, in 2020, not enough fucking people turned out to get the better option on the ballot. That's democracy, unfortunately. Maybe next time I'll be able to count the number of primary voters in my precinct on my hands and toes instead of just my hands.
Oh, don't worry. If Trump wins, you won't have to fret about being 'stuck in this cycle' anymore.
Lmao I'm glad I'm not alone in getting it stranger. Thanks 😊
"We should end genocide somewhat"
Literally the Biden position. Which is a mild milquetoast lukewarm moderate take on an issue that should be far more serious.
But I guess Trump's "We should intensify and start new genocides" is more appealing.
The extent to which he's done this (not much) he's been dragged there by protests and complaints from voters. Literally what the people you're criticising are doing.
You could not be more like the meme if you tried. Only an idiot would vote Trump because of this. Most people are just pissed off at Biden for what you describe as his mild, milquetoast moderate take on the issue. It's almost like you agree but you still shame people with "Trump would be worse" as if 95% of us complaining don't already know that.
I expect better from Biden. That's it. If we can't criticise him for this dogshit policy then when can we?
There's a vast fucking difference between criticizing him for his Israel policy and peddling "both sides" and "I'll never vote for Joe!" shite, or throwing a fit over being told that sitting by and letting Trump win is literally just voting for more genocide, regardless of whether you pissed away your vote in Green or Republican red.
Yes, and pretending that those people you describe represent a majority or even a substantial proportion of the people criticizing him is disingenuous and frankly insulting. Criticism is just that, criticism. And it is deserved.
On here? It's definitely a substantial minority. I'm not out on the streets bitching about Biden being attacked from the left - I'm on the Fediverse bitching about it.
And we're only complaining on the Fediverse too. About something pretty fair to complain about.
I think the amount here that say "they're both the same" or will actually vote Trump is very small.
Not voting I can understand a lot more but obviously not a good decision pragmatically
The Gaza genocide is happening now under Biden, why is the Palestinian nervous about Trump?
To be honest, I already wasn't voting for Biden because of his record of mass incarceration, support for the Iraq War, and ghoulish complicity in every major problem the country is facing today. The fact that he's fully and unwaveringly supporting Israel's genocide is entirely on brand and just makes the decision even easier than before. Four years ago, those concerns were the ones liberals were saying you had to hold your nose and look past, now they're not even on the radar anymore and it's moved on to significantly worse things. It's a perfect example of how the democrats move discourse to the right.
The US political system is truly vile in how it effectively brainwashes people into supporting genocide. Even in this thread you can see people defending Israel and saying it's "necessary" for the US to support them, not even sticking to their lesser evilist line but just openly saying it's a good thing for Biden to support them. Once people choose a camp they just end up knee-jerk defending their decision and adopting positions of their candidate to simplify their cognitive dissonance. In some ways, it's worse than a straight up autocracy because of how it manipulates people while still not allowing people any meaningful voice.
Of course the lapdogs of the empire are more than happy to not only adjust their own beliefs into whatever the elites want, but to then browbeat anyone trying to stand against it. Because to them, the positions of our rulers are completely immutable while the moral convictions of voters are up for debate.
What liberals like OP will never understand is that no matter how real the threat of violence towards me is, it will never be enough to convince me to endorse genocide. At least I can go to my grave with a clean conscience, and that's not worth much but it's worth a hell of a lot more than anything Biden would do for me.
Cool, you can go to the grave knowing you've assisted in the murder as many people as possible. Good job!
Why does the blame for the results of a democratic farce that allows authoritarianism to rise falls on those not participating in said farce? If anything, is those participating in it, advocating for it and validating it that should be blamed when the system they enabled inevitably puts in power an authoritarian idiot like trump. (not my way of thinking, but if we are gonna point fingers...)
Who would you blame if Biden wins the popular vote and your "very democratic" electoral college gives the win to trump? Like it happened to Clinton.
If not doing anything for someone counts as assistance, then rest assured that Biden will have my assistance.
Standing by and doing nothing when you could do something is assisting the end result. So if Trump wins, you can pop some champagne and celebrate how many additional Palestinians you've helped murder so you could indulge in a masturbatory excuse for civic participation.
Sorry, I'm having trouble understanding you with that boot so far down your throat.
I think what you just said is something along the lines of, our ruler, who is actively arming and supporting a genocide that he has the power to stop, is completely blameless, while I, having no power and doing nothing with it, am somehow responsible for the genocide. That the gist of it?
lmao
No, but maybe if you take a remedial English class, you can come back in a few years and actually parse what was said.
So then you agree that the fault lies with Biden and not me, cool cool.
What a great democracy we have! You can only vote for Biden!
A million times, this.
By far the worst aspect of liberalism is the deflection of systemic critique in favor of blaming the individual instead. When liberal democracy fails it won't be because people didn't vote hard enough, it will be because the system failed to respond to the needs of the governed.
Genocide Joe can't wait to hand this mess over to Trump... and his loyal shill brigade have already decided the left should be the scapegoats. No McCarthyism required!
I guess "Russian hackers" are just too passe this time around.
im trans and im voting third party fuck you
americans are so dumb that they cannot choose between more than two things.
Someone doesn't understand the electoral system we have and feels superior for being ignorant
He understands. He's calling us stupid for not throwing the trash out.
Oh I understand. Only shitty candidates are allowed to run.
Our electoral system cannot actually accommodate more than two parties on a mechanical level. It has to do with first past the post and our profoundly dumb electoral college.
Any third party in America doesn't have any chance whatsoever because of the machine.
The same thing will continue happening regardless who is elected. You didn't progress to genocide from one day to the next, this was a slow cook over the last 50 years which wasn't affected at all by the ruling puppet.
Sometimes I feel like I'm the only left-leaning individual online who remembers the 90s and 2000s.
Are you using the 90s as a period where things became better in the US?!
No, I'm using the 90s as a period that we've significantly improved over. This isn't a 'slow boil'. It's a war, with victories and defeats. Mistaking it for a steady march towards genocide ignores just how much progress has been made, even just in my lifetime.
And, as anyone who remembers the various cretins that ran for president in that period (and some of whom succeeded), would also recognize how influential the highest office of the Federal government is. It's not a dictatorship - but it is important who's in there.
EDIT: Apparently, voting doesn't matter, and both sides are quite literally the same; Clinton and Obama were just as bad as Reagan, Bush Jr, and Trump. What a bunch of hyper-privileged bullshit.
I don't think you remember the 90s very well. This is the period where neoliberalism finally triumphed. It's very much not a war. It's a slow, inevitable collapse into fascism
I remember it well enough. Calling LGBT folk slurs was regarded as normal and funny, marital rape was still legal in multiple states, the 'compromise' position of LGBT folk in the military was "Stay in the closet and you're allowed to serve", supporting gay marriage was anathema to literally 90% of the country, police brutality was celebrated and it was considered that it was necessary to get 'harder' on Black communities, unions were actively disparaged, etc etc etc etc etc etc.
Oh, okay, we've just been collapsing for [checks notes] 200+ years, and getting less and less authoritarian all the while. Strange collapse into fascism we're having here.
And unions were crushed even further, people got even poorer while the rich took over everything, multiple new wars, economic shocks and crises. But ye it's OK because corporations celebrate pride day now because they can sell you stuff.
Not to mention that the progress of LGBT rights had nothing to do with voting for the right politicians and rather with the pressure of activists towards capital and the general progressiveness of society. The proof to that is that LGBT rights continued improving all through the Bush era just as much.
Are you even thinking of the same country? Even Lego inadvertedly captured the massive police state the US is turning into. The protests that happened at the turn of the century and in the 2010, are now destroyed with extreme prejudice before they start.
What the fuck are you smoking to suggest this person said "it's all ok"?
... public support for unions in the 90s was much, much lower than it is today, by some 20%, while union membership has stagnated rather than decreased since 2000.
Real wages have stagnated, that's not the same as getting poorer. The fact that this is a recent development should very much inform you that who's in office matters.
That's a curious accusation to level along with "The ruling puppet doesn't matter!" considering the influence of the Bush administration on that particular subject.
Do... do you think economic shocks and crisises didn't happen before now...?
On the contrary, I assure you they were much worse.
... what.
Fucking what.
lol blue maga is using red maga's scare tactics to get their favorite pants shitting geriatric to win a popularity contest.
I'm trans. I'll probably be made illegal and have to run for my life to a blue state, or flee the country.
I'm still not voting for genocide. I'd rather literally kill myself.
So just let Joe Biden do his genocide without consequences?
No. If this is what America is, it deserves to suffer.
And you deserve to suffer for your perpetuating of the fascists systems of America.
I hope you’re happy, I hope you’re proud.
You sat back and did nothing, then complained.
I am disappointing with Lemmy's population. I would expect all these "Biden is bad in one thing but good in the rest" mentality so advocating to vote for him regardless.
First, the "thing" is not minor thing... is a crucial matter where the life of millions of people are completely dispossessed of protection and justice.
Second; There are third candidates... Of course, they don't have a chance and it will be, apparently, a waste of a vote... but only for this November elections! But, if a third candidate, with a genuine distinct message, gets 10-15% of the vote, future candidate will see an incentive to be independent in the future too... Gosh, even both Dem and Rep will be more cautions next time around.
The worse we can do, is to vote the same thing over and over, let alone no voting at all. There is nothing more the duo party loves the most! Encourage those alternative voices, the founding will come alone if hope is there... maybe not in 2024 but for midterms and 2028.
Also, I miss some conservative voices in here (and I am not one!)... I bet there are some non-mainstream ones that could greatly benefit Lemmy's ecosystem too.
I hope Biden wins so Israel can continue it's current genocide
Anything to excuse biden and his support for genocide. No need to put pressure on the guy supporting genocide, just on the people who won't toe the line. If you've ever wondered how the holocaust could've been allowed to happen, just look in the mirror.
The 6 Palestinians I know (from protests in the US), 2 in Gaza and 1 in the West Bank they all tell me they could care less Biden vs Trump, But if has to be one... with Trump there is more chances of change in the region, even at the cost of more lives. Besides, it will be far easier to regional countries and the European ones to distance from a link between Trump's US and Israel.
As a non-American who will never set foot in the US, & as a neutral on the World order, I wish Trump wins, news has been boring, we need some entertainment & it's fun to see the bully being scared, & of course nobody loves bullies. The whole of the world is waiting for you to fuck up, so don't disappoint
But on a serious note, all of you citizens of US need to stop bullshiting yourselves & vote for a third independent party, if your are not going to do it, nobody will, the two parties are the same, you all know that, you think they will change it for the good of the country?? They are living their best lives, they would watch their so called "beloved country" burn in blazing fire than change for the people, the past 70 yrs shows as this
Nah I'm gonna vote Trump because all you pussies lack the backbone to vote for a real politician because you're scared only Biden can beat Trump. At least the fucking Republicans know what they want.
That's a lot of words to say "I don't understand that we don't have primaries for an encumbant."
There's also "old people at home find it way easier to vote in primaries and young people dont care as much about those elections."
That's why we're stuck with Biden. I don't think you'll find anyone here who vote for him in the primaries for 2020. I know I didn't.
None of that is a me problem. This country is gonna burn and is rather see it go the fast way.
That's a you problem
I'm not gonna be here much longer. I don't care about the spineless settlers and sellouts I'm leaving behind.
Trump beats himself lmao
You are a laughing stock 🫶
Laugh all you like. With your logic, a vote for Trump is two votes for Trump.