More couples are choosing a ‘dual income, no kids’ lifestyle
https://www.cnbc.com/2023/12/21/what-dink-dual-income-no-kids-trend-means-for-your-money.htmlOpen linkView original on lemmy.world790
Comments334https://www.cnbc.com/2023/12/21/what-dink-dual-income-no-kids-trend-means-for-your-money.htmlOpen linkView original on lemmy.world
Maybe because it’s the only way many without generational wealth can afford to live.
people used to look at children as a way to pass on knowledge, culture, adn ofc, genes
nowadays our genes dont matter so much unless youre a super athlete or mega genius, so passing them on seems frivolous to many. then theres the interent, which houses knowledge on damn near everything. so i guess it makes sense why the desire to carry on would be outweighed at this point
Passing on genes sounds like some Nazi shit.
Jessie what the fuck are you talking about
Like the nazis, they want to like breed a special white person or some shit.
Username checks out.
I was gonna say. the phrase "double income no kids" arose in the 90s when "single income + kids" was a possibility.
Honestly at this point there are only a handful of headlines that cover about 90% of news stories:
-Young people 'choose' lifestyle choice that was forced upon them by external conditions.
-Young people are 'killing industry' that they are not paid enough to even dream of participating in.
-Rich person/people found guilty of or admitted to enormous crime will go unpunished.
-Someones totally unqualified opinion on a subject that we're reporting as news because they're rich.
-World ending, shareholders rejoice.
Rich people doing stupid things with money because they aren’t being taxed like they should so that the economy actually can survive.
FDR taxes the shit out of rich people so they had to re-invest the money into their companies or lose it to the government. That built a strong, industrialized America with good paying jobs. Ronald Reagan reversed everything and we've been in decline ever since. Still a huge number of poor people continue to vote Republican, against their country, and their own interests.
this might be the greatest comment on Lemmy
Seriously, someone save this and post it on X and Reddit.
Disaster capitalism!!! 🥳
By choosing, I think we mean that it's not an affordable luxury to do otherwise
oh trust me, the right wing would LOVE to take your ability to choose to procreate out of your hands completely. Abortion for sure, but also the the night after pill and even birth control. https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2023/04/birth-control-is-next-republicans-abortion.html
I really wish that this was just a joke. Those fascists will take anything they can to make themselves feel powerful.
"Why aren't the poors having more workers??" - the same people continually reducing the status and security of the working class
If given the option or the opportunity ... the wealthy wouldn't mind the reintroduction of slavery and outright ownership of people
Choosing or forced to choose?
Choosing to not have children is becoming more and more accepted among younger people for a long variety of reasons, among them being climate and economy as well as "not going to ruin my body" and "well i just dont like children"
You pretty much nailed the entire reason for most of my friends and myself (mid to late 20s). We can all afford kids, but it's just not something anyone desires except for one or two people in our group of 14.
Most of us don't even dislike kids, but the thought of having our own is undesirable.
I struggle to understand how people can get over how terrifying and unpleasant having children is. Kids can be okay, except when they aren't, and that's often.
That is simply not true. Kids can teach you many things about yourself that you never knew you cared about. They open a part of this life you would never see otherwise. They are this thing that loves you no matter what and if you are a good parent you do not take that for granted and give it all you got.
I didn't want any for many years for all the same reasons as many here. And it changed. And it's great, for me. But if you choose not to or have doubts, don't. It's horrible for the kid.
Another thing that can happen is you can grow up able to see clearly that you're an obligation for your parents they didn't want. You feel like they're always angry with you even if you're perfectly behaved. Then they tell you they gave up their entire life for you, clearly bitter and regretting that.
There is a non zero chance I could make my kids feel this awful for existing, and that already would be a non starter. But on top of that there's like 14 other reasons.
I'm not sure what you're protesting about what I wrote. I didn't attack you. I just don't understand how people ignore all the anxiety they will certainly have with kids in addition to all the other additional anxiety if anything about the kid goes especially wrong.
Well this comment at least tells us something about how you might have felt when younger. I did not always see eye to eye with my parents but in the end, I felt like they loved me and the amount of happiness I experienced as a kid is almost immeasurable. I'm on team #nokids, but for a lot of people, the love they can experience through children is unique and powerful, and understanding that is not that much of a struggle for me.
That's the thing, having kids is a unique experience just like not having kids is a unique experience. Being an individual is fundamentally a unique experience. Yet this whole conversation gets wrapped up in normative language like this which clearly expresses social preference for the former.
When I hear someone say that having children changed them in a profound way, I don't hear anything other than "climbing a mountain is profound" or "laying on the couch all day is profound." There is uniqueness and profound cumulative existence baked into to every heartbeat, but apparently a lot of people have trouble with this simple idea.
My comment mentioned nothing about the positive sides to kids. They obviously exist. The point I was making is I am surprised so many people opt into the most anxiety I think you probably can opt into.
I'm good. I'm 40. Every day i despise the idea more.
Good. It would be horrible if a kid was brought into this world just because they think it's the right thing to do. It's not for everyone.
Even if that were true, it makes parents sound like they have a god complex that needs to be validated.
You don't know what you are talking about lol
We didn't impose it on them. It's biology. Maybe get some therapy. I'm going to block you. You got a whole cat in a bag vibe that isn't my jam.
Biology is bullshit. It's not an excuse. It's like saying segregation and greed are biology. Like rape and murder are. Negative things exist in our biology and creating other humans for one's need to get high off of them is one of them i assure you will be widely recognized within the next decade.
It's because your brain gets flooded with parenting hormones which give you superhuman delusion tolerance for the first few years. That's why I'm always skeptical when people are like "it's hard but I can't describe how wonderful it is!"
Sure Ryan, that's totally not just the brain worms talking, I'll stick with dogs for my nurturing serotonin and I refuse to feel bad about it.
That does make a lot of sense
You shouldn't feel bad about it. Do what you think is right for yourself. On the other hand, you should recognize that you have no idea what being a parent is actually like, which in a sense means that you don't actually know what you are talking about. It's life-changing and unlike any imagining.
It's a life-changing experience that is unlike any imagining. I am a much better person for having had a kid. That said, I never found it even remotely terrifying or unpleasant, which is just to say that it's definitely not for everyone.
That is absolutely baffling to me. I mean changing the first diaper alone would kill both those "Nevers" for me. Then I would imagine 20 times every day for at least 10 years there would be those feelings. Then when they drive. Then go to college. I mean do you ever worry about anything at all?
I feel the same way, but had already had my children at 21 & 23 before I got the chance to understand the options. I love them and don't regret my choices, but I would have certainly had a life with different focuses.
I'm older, but the majority of people I know that had kids were surprised by the first.
Caveat: the Jesus freaks on the right know no such restrictions
That said 100% you do you
Lol, the opening plot of Idiocracy
Two wrongs doesn't make a right. Then again I have no problem polluting and using up 2 hours of shower water and take tons of baths because others who never cared are doing it. So if you're being selfish, sure, go ahead.
Neither, really. More like are choosing not to go into child debt. Having a kid costs more than having a house. Good for this generation for taking control of their reproductive decisions.
But what you're describing is an economic decision.
Was just going to say that.
Of all my younger siblings/cousins/etc, the only ones with kids were accidents. Only I chose to purposely start a family, and that took me a decade of saving.
Choosing. I hate kids.
Glad i never was one.
Why? Are you worried I wouldn't like you? Don't be. Most probably I don't even know you.
Naw i think we'd get along great! I was semi-quoting Ms Trunchbull from the 1996 movie Matilda.
Oh, I never saw it. 1996 was a weird time in my life.
Choosing. Def had the option to have kids but decided not to.
Most humans choose to breathe for oxygen, study shows.
Unlike these "reporters", you know the answer.
"choosing"
Gee Mr Wizard, why don't millennials want babies instead of avocado toast?
Pretty much
they arent choosing it.
They are being forced into it because its the only fucking way to have a chance at NOT being homeless and crippled.
Don't get it twisted, many of us absolutely chose to not have kids because we don't want them.
You can both be right, you know. Many of us also agree with what this person was saying.
I used to want kids. I will refuse to have kids unless I can afford them, and until I can GUARANTEE that their human rights won't be stripped away by the whims of stupid people who are completely disconnected from reality. I won't bring a new life into a world that's rushing towards climate oblivion, either.
I'll sterilize myself before I'm ever forced to have kids.
And there is part of the problem in the eyes of those with power.... That thought that you have a choice in sterility. A choice to not have kids didn't used to exist and you attempting to keep warm and have some pleasure basically guaranteed that you would have more eventually. So that must be stripped in order for you to continue the cycle of having kids not by choice and add to the population that gets fucked over.
OP: everyone in group x does y
Me: not everyone
You: you're both right - not everyone
?
Agreed. These people are trying to leverage something many of us absolutely aren't interested in to push for necessities such as fixing inflation, universal Healthcare etc. Except that if those things were fixed it wouldn't change the birth rate much at all. That's why Republicans are forcing people to be breeding machines. Educated well off people know better to engage in an activity that is detrimental to their physical and mental health. And making a human means you're responsible for them until you or they die. That's the biggest mistake people make. They make a human, then wash their hands of then.
Less of a choice and more of a survival tactic. Plus, my foregone children would thank me.
No one should have a child unless they are willing to commit themselves to that child 100%. I have a daughter. She's the most wonderful thing that ever happened to me. And if anyone willingly took substantially less effort than I've taken to try to raise her in a safe, healthy environment and prepare her for her future as best I can- fuck you, you should have worn a fucking condom.
No child deserves to be neglected.
Interesting/sad how simply due to circumstance, somebody’s absolute honest best at max effort/sacrifice can still be raising a kid in a favela.
Consider the top vs. bottom billion: I expect the latter half’s kids would appear neglected if they were suddenly transported to the former’s McMansions overnight.
That’s not to say the kisses and the love are any less, but the clothes and the education and the soccer practice? I’d bet certainly.
I hope within by two generations from now this kind of pondering is only possible from a historical perspective. The kids deserve it.
Hence my saying 'willingly.' You can't help being impoverished.
I also have kids and love them dearly. However I think that it is important that parents have their own interests and time for their own lives, independent of their roles as parents. Of course with very young children there's barely time to sleep, but humans grow up quickly! 😄
I'm not suggesting otherwise. You can put the effort in to do all that I said and still have time to do your own thing.
This is not a controversial opinion.
I make ~$200K a year. As a father of 5, I wish I had not had a single one. I love them, but the stress of taking care of them coupled with the future of the planet makes me regret life choices.
I find it interesting that you cite the stress of raising them as a factor in your regret. Could you not tell that was going to be an issue around the time number three came around? That's not intended to be accusatory btw. I'm genuinely curious.
You incorrectly assume I'm intelligent.
Haha fair enough
Ok not a Java dev but this would explain the excess children (lol)
Oh hell yeah I'll never pass up an opportunity to shit on a language i don't use. It's the programmer way!
Signed, a PHP developer. <3
Not OP, but I've found that the older they get, the harder it gets. Schedules are all over the place, and they start advocating for things they want to do that don't fit neatly into the family calendar (vs when you were able to choose everything for them).
Expectations for parents have also skyrocketed. Your "best" now is far different than what the 1990s parents were expected to deliver. And, of course, you love them and want to provide them everything they need, so you bend over backwards to make it happen. That's what society demands, too.
I don't have as many kids as OP, and I can't fucking imagine wrangling five in the current world...😳
Maybe they meant it like “there is now stress for helping pay for college at a higher cost than when they were born.” Or being stressed knowing if the family lives in a HCOL area (typically where those salaries are offered), they might not be able to live there as well with the current trends in housing costs.
TLDR: things have changed for the worst for newer generations, parents can see it.
God, I wish I was smart enough to lie this well. No. I like sex, and hate condoms. I'm the dum.
I do too, which is why I was on the table getting a vasectomy before the vernix was dry on our one and only kid lol
Kids are inherently stressful. They're like little abusive people who you can't legally defend yourself against.
He's a Java developer
Made a ChildFactory, may as well use it.
I'm sorry man, I assume you have a bit of family support in this regard?
My wife finally are in a point where we can afford to have children, but we are kinda getting a bit old to have children. So we are also choosing the dual income no children life style,
But a big part of that is our age and how long it took to get to a comfortable place financially.
Now we want to focus on saving for a house and retirement.
dinks
I don’t know what this means.
It's the acronym for the phrase in the article - "Dual Income No Kids". Might have been more obvious if it were in caps.
Thanks!!
How old are you if you don't mind me asking?
Mid 30s
That's not old, my man. Many of us are having kids in our 40s.
I'm one right here. Tired? Sure, but they fill our lives. This was 100% the right decision for us, but everyone has their own set of goals
perfectly ok in that range, it starts to get unsafe for the mother after 40 tho
I don't know about this commenter, but don't forget that everyone is different.
Hypothetically, you might be good having kids in you thirties, but one or both of them might have a condition or disability that gets worse with time.
I know people in their early 20s with bad arthritis, and a lot of people want to be able to chase after and run around with their kids. Sometimes chronic pain/illness can remove that option.
Oh for sure, I dont think everyone should or can be parents. Im just saying its not necessarily a death knell for parenthood in that age range
I think adoption is also pretty pricey but I’m not sure where you’re from.
What choice do they have if kids are basically unaffordable?
“When we advise clients about having children, we honestly don’t even give them the full real details and the real numbers,” said Shannon McLay, founder of The Financial Gym. “It’s one of those things if you see the math of it all, it might make you decide to not have children.”
what a whole generation of pulling the ladder up behind you will do to a society. Party of family values doing everything they possibly can to destroy familes.
In other words, "we trick our clients who paid us for financial advice into having children they can't afford".
Yeah, I hope there's some more context. That quote makes it sound pretty bad.
people won’t pay to hear ‘don’t have kids’
so they skip that part
Holy shit, what an incredibly unethical thing to do. "We're lying to the people who come to us for advice because if we told the truth they might make a decision we don't like."
Because we can't afford our own lives, how are we supposed to support children? Not even taking into account for how absolutely fucked we all are. Our planet is dying, how can we bring children into this world if it's all falling apart?
Hey you, I have a quick question about the username
Uh oh, this is awkward....
What are your thoughts on misandry?
I mean a lot of us wouldn't even if it they paid us. We finally live in a time where we know better and can choose not to be barefoot and pregnant (unless you live in tx).
But you can't forget that your children can save the planet, if your generation won't.
My parents set the house on fire, I'm looking for a fire extinguisher, and some newsie wants me to know that if I just had kids they could grow up to be firemen.
I don't think that's what is being said at all. I think what's being said is that if the future belongs to the next generation, it's in all of our interests that intelligent and responsible people do not simply give up and allow the idiots to dominate the future. In other words, we all have a stake in the coming generations and simply opting out because we find it somehow inconvenient is not a moral decision.
This is not to say that we all need to have kids, but rather, is to say that we shouldn't necessarily fault those who do choose to have them. Again, if the children are our future, it would be nice if at least some of them were raised by responsible, intelligent and well-educated parents.
That would ring truer if not spoken by an idiot who dominates the present. CNBC is replete with these know-nothing goobers, and even assuming I bought in to their selective breeding strategy for repopulation after the apocolypse, I sure as hell wouldn't endorse their target audience to handle the job.
That's fair on its face, but more as a practical consequence. At some point you have to ask, what would we even do about people having more kids than we'd like. And the answers - from trying to shame them by screaming at them to doing old school Nixon-era sterilizations of whole populations - are incredibly grim and gross.
If you want responsible, intelligent, and well-educated parents tomorrow, you're going to need to house and feed and educate and generally provide quality of life for kids today.
But we hate kids today. That's why, despite the economy growing at a steady clip for the last 20 years, we're at record high child poverty with 1 in 5 kids living in poverty in the 40 richest countries. The current generation does not want to pay money to see them grow up health, strong, and capable.
Given the poor treatment they've received, why would Zoomers be expected to have lots of kids of their own? They have known nothing but declining standards of living, with a promise of worse to come.
What an asshole thing to do. Hey we had fun using up this planet now here, we made you to clean up up the mess. That's what AI and robots are for. Not humans.
Man, fuck them negative votes. Humans do best understand pressure. We need humans to solve this crisis because, humans manufactured it. We make more humans and roll the dice.
Pure selection bias. You primarily hear about the humans who did well under pressure, because the humans that didn't do well rarely make for popular reading material.
I would argue that by the time a child born today is old enough to participate in the solution, the dice will have already landed. Either they'll be living in a city/country/planet whose prior generation has positioned themselves to preserver, or they'll be dying in one whose prior generation didn't.
Having more kids won't solve the problem. We've got 8B people already. One more or less won't tip the scales.
Not having more kids won't solve the problem, either. So no point in getting mad at folks who did choose to have children.
When the problem is too much of something, the solution is less of it. Make of that what you will.
I like to think the solution is much more complex but, I guess you can't get snakes from chicken eggs.
Time to break the cycle of abuse.
It's time to put funding into solutions. Making less people isn't the solution. Managing our resources responsibility is the better solution.
Don't stop making people, start making better quality people.
Put the value back into my income then, ye cunts.
I make the same number as my dad used to. His was a different currency but the number was the same which makes it awfully simple to put everything into perspective.
His house: 350 Mine: a little under half the size: 900
I'm already down 550 in comparison.
His insurance: 90 Mine: 160
I'm down 620.
His medicine cost and doctor visits: basically zero. Mine: 385 and half the medicine comes out of pocket nowadays.
This difference is hard to put into perspectice as the 385 is once a year and medicine depends on the situation.
Him: unemployed wife, groceries cost about 200 for a full month, owns a car and has 4 children.
Me: wife works and has a hobby that makes money, no car because no money left. Groceries: we eat about 2/3rd of what they did and pay 200 a week. No children.
We are down 1220 if we forget about insurance and medicine. I don't make 1220 more than he did.
Fuck this hellhole, you stole our life and i hope there is a hell for you scumbags.
Don't blame your dad - however much you resent him it's not like he has any influence over the economy. Instead blame the super rich who have real influence and are actively pushing policy to widen this social divide.
I doubt he does.
But it is partially their fault: they have the largest political clout by generation so welfare and zoning policies have always suited them at the behest of everyone else.
And even if people don't have kids, the rich aren't going to be impacted. They just use immigration as a stop gap until everything is automated away and we see wealth imbalance get taken to 11. I'm talking gated communities everywhere with poverty in-between (e.g South Africa)
You're choosing to be wilfully ignorant about inflation. You don't make as much as he did in a real sense.
What's going on now isn't inflation. It's greed.
If only income inflated to match the expenses.
Gee, it's almost like it's important for the long term success of society to have systems in place that make sure it's not a burden to create new people to take over for your generation after their bodies are too old and broken to keep working and society functioning.
Then again, the decisions have already been made by the people with the power to make them, and technology/automation are in line to replace workers. They'll be a little loud and problematic until the numbers naturally even themselves out, but we'll be left with an enlightened society of capitalist asset owners being supported by a massive technological network.
It would be a shame if a new Luddite movement came and broke the machines putting humans out of work they want to do.
Or give us a universal basic income and let humans do what they want to do to make themselves happy while the machines do all the work.
Makes a fascinating short story:
Jimmy thought his job at the data center was easy, clock in, watch the cameras, do the rounds, clock out. Good pay, low effort....
then 10,000 people showed up with hammers and crow bars. Jimmy was about to have a very bad day.
I so much hope it's going to be rhe second. I doubt it will 😢
What value is a universal basic income to the shareholders? That is the question to ask in this capitalist hellscape.
I'd say that sometimes it may even be beneficial to shareholders because they will not have to deal with people in the company that are there only to up the workspace numbers. You know, those job positions that only exist because of how wrecked the system is now
Maybe one day many, many years from now when there are far fewer humans and machines have taken over nearly all production. UBI isn’t feasible on this side of the coming demographic boogaloo.
"choosing".
Articles like this are not for you and me. These are written for investors.
The plebs aren't breeding enough future workers for us to exploit to deliver the promised renumerations to our shareholders.
We MUST find out the reason why! No it can't possibly be that extracting all the wealth into our dragon hoards, I mean, hedge funds is the reason why they're too broke to support children.
It can only be a LiFeStYlE cHoICe! Like being homeless or poor.
choice or forced the reconcile the gloomy outlook, the right wing would love to take even the right to choose away from the population. https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2023/04/birth-control-is-next-republicans-abortion.html
"Choosing"
Those with higher income levels are the ones deciding to have less kids, whereas those with the lowest incomes are the ones having more. Source
If people are being forced into not having children for economic reasons, wouldn't it be the opposite?
Friend of mine wanted kids. Can't afford it. Both her and her partner work full time, though money was too tight for them to feel comfortable. It's heartbreaking, really.
Why the fuck would I want to subject my own children to the inevitability of human suffering? I'm not going to make the same mistake my parents made.
If the world collapses because there are no more children, I'll consider it my greatest accomplishment before ending it all on my own terms.
It won't. Humans in general breed like crazy. It will collapse because of climate disasters.
Kids? In this economy?
lol this is literally the opening sequence to Idiocracy
At this time of year? At this time of day? In this part of the country? Localized entirely within your kitchen?
"Yes." "May I see them?" "....................... No."
lol this is literally the opening sequence to Idiocracy
What could rasing a child cost? 10$?
No, it's more like 25,000 bananas.
Quick math suggests that it takes about 2190 bananas to raise a child, with an average of 1 banana every 3 days. This cost does not incluce therapy sessions for the parents though, so is not a complete breakdown of the cost of raising a child.
That's half a star war!
Living that DINK life and still having trouble keeping out of debt. I can't imagine having to cover for kids, too.
Is doing so much heavy lifting in that headline.
Might as well be "More Titanic passengers choosing life rafts to ocean liners"
choosing life rafts to drowning
The world needs fewer people.
And no super rich people.
Yep
Nobody has babies anymore (except Sarah)
As I remember it: fundamentalists are repopulating the earth, and overall population will drop off before long, so don’t mind having & raising progress young minds.
Source
Just what I would have said. We're already too many in this little space.
Im a DINK! Just this year we bought a house, vacationed in Europe and are installing a new heat pump system. I interact with my friends kids and have nieces and nephews. I get to be the fun one and if someone poops or gets sick I can return them. It's like skipping right to the grandparent stage. I don't hate kids or look down on parents like some child free communities but I don't envy them at all. I totally get why DINKness is on the rise. Hopefully the stigma reduces as it become more common.
Sounds very expensive.
Yeah, pretty cool what not having kids can do for you
Still less so than kids though!
Not as bad as you would think. I am lucky to live in a very progressive state that is investing heavily in green technology. The state gave us a .99 percent loan we have sitting in a high percent saving account to withdraw payments from. The state also gave us like 6k is rebates just to get rid of our old Freon unit. We are hoping to cut our energy bills in half. So depending on where you live you should look into it.
Um, I'm sitting here wondering where they spent the rest of their savings. (Parent here.)
"Choosing"
"forced into"
Don't mind me. I'm the weirdo that legit loves being a parent.
I'm over here single income double kids. Opps lol
I'm single income no kids and go hang out with my sister's kids when I'm bored. When they start getting annoying I bounce.
You have found the perfect balance.
except maybe lacking the luxury of dual income which would come with the bonus of someone to snuggle with every night
I have to choose between snuggling or drama
Oh man, I used to think that but then I got older and found a woman that understands (like I do in reverse) that I’m set in my ways and expecting me to/being disappointed when I fail to live up to her ideal partner is just the wrong way to be. Being married and divorced multiple times does wonders for encouraging pragmatism.
yeah. drama sux.
Send 'em to the coal mines and you'll have three incomes
Lol how's life treating ya? How's life grew your kids? Hope your kids won't hate you for not buying them iPhones and Gucci bags
They aren't getting Gucci bags they will have to hold their Gucci in their hands instead
Lol 🤣🤣
I already have two kids. Is it too late to adopt this lifestyle?
"But we need your children to grow up and produce product and more children so that we can continue the cycle of funneling the value they create into the pockets of our society's most wealthy and well connected!"
That's why capitalism in the current state is not sustainable. Too much wealth and power in a small group which limits population growth.
Guess the crazed business owners should have paid more money to their lowly drones (who actually do all of the work) instead of taking larger and larger massive bonuses for themselves then.
Fuck them.
I was lucky to get sterilized in Tennessee (pre RvW), and I'm absolutely hyped about it. I never felt maternal, and the feeling disappeared even more as I heard the 'discussions' about women's 'rights'. The more I was made to feel like a next gen's workforce factory , the more I realized a life of free time and savings was much more desirable.
This is similar to the "correlation doesn't equal causation" fallacy.
Dual income and no kids, is due to the prospect of cost of living and raising a family out pacing income. Housing, vehicle, child care, tuition, are all the items pricing middle class out of options.
DINK is not a choice, if anything, it's more the result of not having the luxury to choose.
Nah dude, not having children is definitely a choice and is becoming more and more common
I think there's a very solid argument to be made that far fewer would be making that choice if the future didn't look bleak as hell. I would at least consider having kids if I thought there was a better than not chance that the world I leave them will be better than the one I was given.
Yes but you can also argue that shitload of people simply have kids without thinking even when they absolutely shouldn't. So yeah some people would like to have kids but decide not to while others shouldn't have kids but do anyway. It's really time to change our attitude from "every couple needs kids" to "only some couples should have kids".
Exactly. People need to stop acting like the economy is stopping them from making the biggest mistake of their lives. This is the ONLY good thing about the economy right now.
i think it can be both, tbh
This is a gross oversimplification that ignores a million societal factors. It's a choice for a lot of us. People used to either not have a choice or think they didn't. Many now know they have a choice and don't want to be broke and stressed. Like my parents were. You know, back when everyone was rich and happy.
It's a choice. And the exact choice compared to those who don't take that option is demonstrated at the beginning of the film Idiocracy.
I very much enjoy the lifestyle that comes with it. It's less stress overall. And it's not exactly a fun place (current state of the world) for me to want to bring a mini me into.
I’ll bet my life savings it isn’t a choice for most….its a necessity these days.
Just the thought of having to be responsible for a child's welfare in this day and age would send my blood pressure through the roof.
Bummer when my friends now don't have kids. It robs me of the schadenfreude while they enjoy their childfree blissful and carefree lives.
We're completely happy being uncle and auntie
This actually was a choice that my partner and I discussed before we got married. I have lived a charmed life but my mental health still is not great despite that; hard to justify creating another version of myself whose life experiences are fairly likely to be worse than mine.
Additionally my brother-in-law requires additional support. He's an adult with learning difficulties and is unable to work. Eventually he'll need to come and live with us once old relatives have passed away.
My father was infertile but they elected to go for a sperm donor so that I would have the option to choose whether I wanted to have kids of my own. In theory they could have made me with IVF but I would have likely been infertile too. I hope I'm not letting him down but I remind myself that he was giving me the option to choose as opposed to some kind of mandate to procreate.
I am a father. If you don't want kids please please don't have them. Whatever residual guilt or obligation you are operating under I ask you to purge from your system. The world has enough problems without bringing kids into it that you don't want to raise. Being a parent is hard enough for people like me who want and continue to want to do it, I can't imagine how much worse it will be for a person who doesn't or didn't want.
Yes it is true to one extent almost all parents are rising to the occasion. No one is fully ready and there is never a perfect time. But this is a retrocon. Just because you can figure out something and muddle through doesn't mean you should have to be in that position to begin with.
Again please please do not reproduce if you are unwilling or unable to raise those kids. Leave the task to people who want to. If you still feel some guilt, for whatever reason, go look at some parent in your life and offer to help them with any little task. Even if it is just sitting on their couch playing with your cellphone while they can run out and buy groceries.
That is a misunderstanding of natural selection. Natural selection means the most efficient ways to live in your ecological niche have been selected for.
Sloths are not counter to natural selection. They're not fast or smart or strong. What they are is well-adapted to live in their environment.
It's from the movie Idiocracy. Which is more of a documentary at this point.
just keep in mind the big catastrophe still didn't happen, so people are happy in their delusions.
They were, until humans became part of their environment.
thank you
I always feel cheated as an asexual/aromantic person. We shouldn't be forced to live with roommates for the rest of our lives just because we don't want to get married, which isn't really a choice, it's just our orientation like anyone else's. It's also so much harder when neurodivergence and/or social anxiety is an issue.
No one should be forced to get married or have roommates (or both) just to keep a roof over their heads. Everyone is entitled to have a little bit of privacy and comfort in their lives, especially if they work hard for it.
I can't believe I feel like I have to justify the desire for a studio apartment with no roommates.
Amen, AroAce SINK, with no partner to pick up any slack...I'm lucky currently to live with family that I get along well with, but they're older and not in great health, so that's not going to last forever.
If I had to redo my life, that's what I'd do.
Don't ever tell your children that.
Lol true
There will never be a time in which your children are cool with you telling them that you wished they'd never been born
I kind of disagree, I would completely understand if my parents said that. Maybe it's because the math is so clear to me.
Same. I was born five months after they were married. I know I was an accident and that I financially taxed them as a baby. Saying "I regret having you" doesn't have to mean they regret having you so much as when or how they did. I bet my folks would have liked to wait, lol
Obviously it's not for everyone, but I had this conversation with my parents after telling them I planned not to have children and it was... Fine? Kind of a bonding moment, even, we mostly just laughed about it.
Not every parent/child relationship trends this way, but for some of us there's a point in adulthood where you just become friends with your parents, and the parent/child roles sort of fall away. If everybody's mature and secure enough to handle it, talk about whatever the hell you want to.
I am quite certain that you are a skilled enough communicator to not say
Which is directly wishing your children were never born, and is a fundamentally different conversation from "By all means, opt not to have children - our financial lives would look quite different if we did not."
As with most things, how you say it matters as much or more than what you're saying.
Lol people should feel comfortable enough to admit to their kids they were a mistake. We need to normalize being able to express that so that people can learn to make better choices.
Because the alternative is the child finds out through negative actions and abuse. Lying to your kid their whole lies that they were wanted is like lying about then being adopted. They will make the connection once they make the same mistake and it is too late.
You realize one of the benefits of social media is being able to voice a thought without having to refine it first right?
Yes. I also do not see how this person literally regretting their children can possibly be interpreted any other way
Heard it most of my childhood and having the nickname "The Divorce Baby" didn't help. But honestly I also wish I had never been born so I wasn't super bothered by it.
I always tell my parents they should have foregone having kids as they missed out on a lot of happy memories. My dad became a nervous wreck as soon as he became a parent and took him decades to chill out. They both passed on adhd and anxiety disorders they didn't know how to treat so yeah, good times. Most people don't have anything great to pass on genetically to their kids. I really have had no use of my dad's artistic talents when I'm too unfocused from unmedicated adhd to do anything with it. And who cares if I am great at multitasking if I have too much anxiety to drive. My parents would have been better off and would have seen the world. I would have not existed and that's totally fine!
replace "choosing" with "can not afford"
With the insane costs of raising kids nowadays, might as well DINK FTW!
https://www.throwbacks.com/content/images/2018/02/the-2Bdinks.jpg
The Dink in Mr. Dink's name stands for Double Income No Kids, which would explain his ability to produce such "very expensive" purchases.
https://doug.fandom.com/wiki/Bud_Dink
The same applies to Dinkleburg in the Fairly OddParents. It's in his name. DINKLEBURG!!!!
Between a dude calling me "pedestrian" on here the other day, and this Bud Dink reference, I think it's a sign from the universe to show my kids Doug
Dinkleberg😠
To quote System of A Down, “we don't need to multiply”
That’s me and my spouse. We love it.
Some people cant grasp that not having children because you dont want them is an option. I got a vasectomy at 23, single, no kids, because fuck em.
My sister in law would like to be made infertile as well, unfortunately no doctor will do it for her because her hypothetical husband might want children from her one day. Being female in America and not wanting kids is heavily stigmatized, in her case she just doesn’t like them
Username...checks out?
And more power to you. I just thought it was a funny coincidence that you're writing this with a username I could interpret as "a way not to have children". Didn't mean to take away from what you wrote at all. Sorry if it sounded that way.
"choosing"
But Bezos and Musk both want 1 Trillion humans!
Musk pretty much only wants the white humans. Not sure about Bezos.
Well yeah how else is there going to be more
wage slavesMozarts?Too expensive and we like sleep and travel and time for our hobbies.
Plus no vaginas/anus's being ripped open and no shitting in front of a bunch of strangers.
Even with dual income you can be homeless.
Say what you will about previous generations but the ilk of Brian cheskey leading the way for destitution know money hoarding from unchecked capitalism more efficiently than ever before.
yea because that shit is bad ass
"Very expensive."
“Choosing”
Like choosing to not buy a Lamborghini!
Yep, choosing to not have kids is a choice, you dont need a reason to not have children
Crushing economics aside, a lot of us watched Doug and now live in a future where we've access to all the gadgets that Mr Dink did.
I'd be ok with having kids if I could keep the job I like, but to afford it I'd have to leave academia or start playing politics to climb the ladder.
The option is there, but I'd invalidate a lot of work to take it!
The US only has a positive birth rate because of immigration. It probably won't be that long before we in the US follow Japan's example and offer incentives for people to be parents. After all, if the R's are feeling more that the "immigration is poisoning the blood of our nation and D's are in favor of helping young people have kids, everything is in alignment for that to work.
Isn't there a movie that starts out this way?
Optimised into genocide.
Always so hilarious to see politicians trying to impove demographics and outlets wondering "why don't we have kids" while absolutely 0 things are done to improve our financial situation.
Capitalism will do everything, but last thing it will do is share profits with people.
🙋🏽♂️
Huzzah! We shall all DINK together!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YCApeXCE0W8
The perfect wagies
articles like this are so weird as an aromantic person. like that's SO beyond off the table already
Sometimes I find folks that play the ethics and environmental card to describe their lack of want to have children a bit disingenuous. Some of those DINKs are the most jet setting, extravagant, and excessive consumers. Better safari and see the animals in person before they go extinct, or fly around to scuba dive to see all the reefs in person before they die. If you want to have a lot of discretionary income to have fun with and see the world without having the responsibility of child raising, that's fine. But don't pretend it's an ethical decision.
Sad reflection of just how deep the neoliberal ideology has succeeded in reshaping people into pleasure-seeking consumers
Yeah, that won't end well when they are older.
People that have kids only so the parents are taken care of when they are older don't raise kids that take care of them when the parents are older.
It's not just your kids; many do not have kids, and no one will care for anyone. You'll just be abandoned to rot, uncared for, until dead.
Well, there always is a permanent answer you can choose before obsolescence.
Not sure you should default to burdening your children with elder care duties.
It's crazy how many people have kids because they view them as an eventual resource.
Like, they want the return on investment for bringing a life into this world.
Completely ignoring how much kids cost. Throw that shit in a 401k and you'll be able to retire early, enjoy yourself, and pay for elder care yourself when it's necessary.
Like, if it's just a random explanation they came up with to explain why they have kids it's one thing, but anyone that seriously believes this would be a good plan...
Back in the olden times there weren't 401Ks or other such safety nets. We've advanced but culture is lagging, as it often does.
Back in the day you got a pension from your company job...
And because the focus was on long term health of the company and not just a quarterly increase in profit, companies were around for generations.
Now giant corporations have bought them, destroyed pensions or even just "closed" the company and sold all the equipment and real estate to another that wasn't obligated to pay the pensions....
After the depression, FDR tried to set up Social Security as a "national pension" along with universal healthcare.
Moderate Dems (Dems co trolled all branches back then) stopped it, saying they needed more research before I plementing.
80 years later and the Dem president is still saying it...
401ks are the best available option. That doesn't mean they're better than what we used to have or we shouldn't demand more.
There won't be anyone to care for the elderly or work normal, service, or public service jobs. The economy will crash, and life will feel like a dystopia.
This isn't a hypothetical. There's been a lot of events that cause a sharp population decline. And everytime, the working class make out like bandits because their labor value skyrockets.
The wealthiest lose money, but I'm cool with that.
Maybe if we're lucky the next couple generations won't fuck it up again.
Yes, but those not having kids won't benefit; those who have kids will benefit.
No...
The next generation benefits if there isn't a lot of them.
The parents of the next generation are still raising them, which sucks right now and is expensive.
But expecting them to pay for you in your old age is pretty much the worst reason to have kids, and those people probably aren't going to have kids that want to be involved for very long.
And for some of us, we don't just care about our own offspring, we care about all humans.
And the next generation is going to be a lot better off if overpopulation stops being such a huge problem.
But you keep jumping between defenses for it. It makes it look like your just saying whatever best defends having children.
What does it feel like now?
Having kids only so that they'll take care of you when you're old is one of the worst reasons to have kids I've ever heard. A child who is only wanted because they can do something on your behalf in the future is not a child who will be loved. What child deserves that?
My guy, I'd literally rather kill myself when I can't take care of myself anymore than create a whole entire human being that I don't want for the sole purpose of having a nursemaid when I'm old. That's like, the worst possible reason to have a kid. Not to mention that there are tons of reasons a kid might not be able/willing to take on that role, so plenty of people are going to end up totally boned if that's their plan anyway.
So you just accidentally admitted that your children were a purely selfish act. Checks out, honestly. The people who would actually be good parents often don't want to be. The ones who are hot garbage as parents don't care, are dumb and overconfident, and have many kids. Dunning Kruger effect applies here to a sickening degree.
I'm not sure if you've picked up on the pattern, but it won't end well for anyone either way. People are getting poorer and less secure just plain matter of fact. Retirement age is coming later and later. Healthcare becoming less and less accessible. Late life benefits are at the whim of a bunch of geriatrics in DC who persistently vote to reduce, delay, or completely remove things previous generations enjoyed.
The outcome isn't changing no matter the path anyone of us takes. So you may as well keep kids out of that inevitably.
Why not?