Whining about being part of the same group that most rapists belong to when the overarching conversation is about how we prevent horrific crimes like gang rape is a choice a lot of men are making in here.
If you feel it’s more important to soothe men’s hurt feelings about being in the same group as most rapists rather than focusing on how we reduce rape, you have completely missed the fucking point.
I found that one around here somewhere right as I was going through a full Voyager watch. I haven’t used it before, but it’s perfect for some of the men in this comment section. Just so yuck!
First of all fuck this conversation for bringing up depressing statistics.
The 93℅ of convicts being male is something I cannot debate. Even the number of cases being registered brings it down to 90℅, so even if some men are hiding, I don't think the numbers extrapolate below 85℅. Which honestly makes sense, rape is defined by power dynamics, and men are usually stronger than women, and 93℅ number matches closely with the strength distribution of male to female. Which is, 5℅ of women are stronger than 50℅ of the men. So even if I consider female to male rape being under reported, I don't think margin would be that large, and would largely be balanced by women who don't report.also looking up similar data from the EU only makes this case stronger. Only thing I have against the case is some anecdotes I've read when it comes to bars and discos about women being perpetrators far more often than numbers suggest, but like I said, those are anecdotes from reddit, so I'm not giving much weight to it till I see it myself,(or atleast if I see similar point being brought up in different threads). I tried being factual but fuck me for looking up all these numbers.
Secondly, it's complex issue. Your beliefs and Morality is not just in your parents hands, it's also your friends and by large today especially, the algorithm of your feed.
My biggest issue whenever y'all try to send messages like this is, these just never reach the people who need to hear it. As a man, I'm either in a group that's actually full of women respecting people, or a place that doesn't hesitate body shaming women on her freaking face. And I said "place" which means this is a socially accepted behavior amongst almost Everyone there. And what can I do when everyone around me is beyond redemption? I've met a guy who seriously took objection to the fact that most people chose to have their mothers signature in a form instead of their fathers. And yes, he was being misogynist, and he almost took pride in being called so.
Look I'm a socially awkward guy. I have no friends from that 'place'. And if you ask me, they were beyond redemption anyways. Some might grow up in future, some won't. I respect you western women for atleast avoiding people who display such behaviors, cause some women here didn't even object. I had to think twice before standing up for someone cause how casually some of them treated it.
Rest I don't even know what to say. It's just depressing to talk about rapes in general.
Rest I don’t even know what to say. It’s just depressing to talk about rapes in general.
Trust, I don't enjoy talking about this subject. But I think it's important. Because there's a general sentiment that feminism has gone far enough and that we've corrected enough to give women equality.
We haven't. So I keep talking about it. And I keep posting news articles because this keeps happening over and over and over again.
Don't lump yourself in with the men that choose to put their selfish wants above other's boundaries if you don't do so. Continue to speak up for the women in your life. That's all that anyone can ask of you here.
This one's not even that bad when it comes to getting lumped, cause I know only monsters do stuff like this, and I am not one of them, or almost anyone I'm in touch with.
Honestly most depressing one was when the grok was on a freaking rampage of nudifying women without their consent at the start of the year. Idk it was something freaking dystopian shit unfolding in front of my eyes, especially seeing how laxed government response was. I remember Linus from Linus tech tips getting emotional thinking this could be his children one day, and I realised I'm kinda lucky in that regard, cause my loved ones don't post pictures online. But still, just the fact that something we considered sexual harassment until yesterday today became the new normal was horrifying. And barrier of entry was so low it could have just been any random guy who was doing that.
I still think we didn't do enough to prevent this from happening silently.
I agree with you. Men need to be taught better and most rapist are men due to the obvious. However crime statistics always make me feel kinda gross and reminds me of conservatives doing the same for black crime statistics.
However crime statistics always make me feel kinda gross and reminds me of conservatives doing the same for black crime statistics.
I think there's a fundamental difference.
Overpolicing of poor and black neighborhoods by racist cops looking to meet quotas creates "crime statistics".
But this is under policing of rich white fraternities, resulting in chronic misconduct by a select few bad actors.
At some point, it's like talking about serial killers or pedophiles from a racial lense, when the problem isn't racial. It's the fact that you don't arrest Ted Bundy or Jeffrey Epstein, and they crank up the statistics for their cohort single handedly.
However crime statistics always make me feel kinda gross and reminds me of conservatives doing the same for black crime statistics.
You'd rather we don't track the problem?
The numbers, even if they're slightly inaccurate (which I don't think they're far off), show that there's a clear imbalance as to who are the perpetrators. Women know this from experience as well.
There's many reasons that men are overwhelmingly the demographic that rapes people and they're not waived away by simply claiming that people are being sexist against men.
I don't get the impression that that's what they're saying.
I get the impression that they agree, but that it's literally the quoting of crime statistics to highlight a problem that feels bad to them.
Which I can understand. It invites quibbling over statistics and somehow distances you from the point being made because it highlights a pattern but leaves the conclusion up to the listener.
This in no way speaks against the statistic, the conclusion or the problem. Just commiserating that statistics have been used to mislead so often that it can feel bad to use them, even if entirely justified.
I agree that they're missing the point, but if you think the point of threads like this is to focus on how to reduce rape, so are you. The point is to stimulate and/or vent anger about rape, barely even paying lip service to reducing it.
I'm not trying to silence anybody, and I don't think anyone is accomplishing anything by being here, essentially we're all just amusing ourselves. The delusion of accomplishment is part of that.
If the messaging doesn't work let's just keep doing it with no changes and tell everyone who misinterprets it they're wrong? How is it I see the same comments on these posts for literally the past 10 years, clearly it's not being communicated effectively.
The rapists in this particular story never saw any punishment outside of having to write some essays.
We could start with holding rapists accountable for their crimes. Until then, we're not going to shut up about how many men are raping us with no consequences.
93.6% of sexual abuse offenders were men in 2021 in the US.
Statistics don't matter if there is a bias at the data gathering level.
Thebkind if statistic that always gets shot down is the fact that woman-on-man rape is under reported, doesn't get taken seriously when it does get reported, and usually doesn't even get filed, and so makes no blip on rape statistics.
Most identified victims of child sexual abuse are girls, but boys also experience serious harm. Child protective services records show that boys make up a larger share of identified victims among younger children than among teenagers.
According to child protective services records, boys account for 30% of sexual abuse victims ages 0-11.
Among victims ages 12-17, boys account for 11%.
Sexual violence against men and boys is often overlooked, but police files show that it happens across multiple types of reported sex crimes.
Nationwide, in 11% of reported rapes, the victim is male.
Every survivor deserves to be recognized, believed, and supported. Naming sexual violence against men and boys helps make sure fewer survivors are left out of the conversation.
18% of U.S. men experience verbal sexual harassment at work or in public during their lifetimes.
At least 4% of rape is perpetrated by women.
Each year, an average of 5,510 female perpetrators are reported for rape, according to law enforcement reporting.
Bias does not account for the staggering difference between perpetrators though:
According to child protective services agencies nationwide, 89% of identified child sexual abuse perpetrators are male.
About 8% of identified offenders are female. The rest are unknown or unclassified.
Sexual violence can happen to anyone, but police files show that reported rape overwhelmingly involves female victims.
Nationwide, female victims experience nearly 9 in 10 reported rapes.
These numbers make clear why prevention, accountability, and survivor support must address the disproportionate harm experienced by girls and women, while recognizing that every survivor deserves care.
Source
The bias exists and to their credit, they even acknowledge it too, only you ignore it: They use the word "reported", which is very important. We will never know the true numbers when it comes to rape. Many women will not report out of fear from repercussions or shame and I'm sure you're well aware of that. But most men would never report out of shame if something does happen to them because men aren't supposed to be rapeable. Your own statistics show that in childhood ~30% of victims are male but it quickly drops off to ~11% by the time we're old enough to know we must never admit to being weak. Particularly in teenage years, the bullying would never end if a boy admits to being raped.
There's a woman in my own life who holds certain power over me: The mother of my child (who I'm raising alone). I hate her with every fiber of my being, but the moment I stop pretending I'm ok with sleeping with her, she'll make up random bullshit about me being a bad parent so she can kidnap our kid again. Who, last time it happened, was so traumatized it took a few months of being back home with me to mostly recover. But until she murders someone or gets caught doing hard drugs, she has 100% equal rights to the kid whose life she shows zero interest in until she needs something from me (usually sex or money, though I suspect the sex is an attempt to wrestle back control over me rather than for her enjoyment, she already has several other men, including the current one she's in a "monogamous" relationship with), so there is no legal recourse, I'd have to straight up murder her to get peace and I have no intention of ever doing that. We can't leave the country without her permission either, I'd be wanted internationally for kidnapping then.
So am I being raped? Maybe, maybe not. I'm not being held down physically or drugged, it's certainly not as violent in this case as what many female victims experience, but I don't REALLY consent to what's happening, yet I have no choice and I also can't let her know I don't consent, I've done it in the past and it set off a horrible fucking chain of events. But it's 1) completely unproveable, because she's never threatened me and hasn't used physical violence on me since the divorce, it's only clear from her past actions how she starts behaving when I don't pretend to be easily swayed by her "feminine powers" anymore, and 2) even if I could prove it, I have no faith anything would come out of it. She would certainly never get convicted, she could commit a crime in front of a police officer and get away with it, most people never see through her blatant lies, because she can and will tell you that the sky is actually lime green and she WILL believe it herself as she's saying it to you. I've witnessed her get away with dozens of things over the 3 years I've known her. And I'm also not a fan of having my house painted, my car trashed, or any of the other things she's done to her other exes who have dared tell her off. Not immediately. Months or in one case years later so you could never prove or perhaps even know that it was her.
So while I agree that straight up posting #notallmen unprompted after something like the Cornell 7 incident comes to light makes you either an idiot or a bad faith actor, I can't help but feel like some frustration is justified as our whole gender is being labeled as dangerous based on reported statistics where we know most of us would never report if anything happened to us because society expects us to never be raped and you're a weak pussy if you do get taken advantage of, especially by a woman. And I'm not going to pretend that the numbers would be equal even if every single rape or sexual abuse case was reported, it's just frustrating knowing you're considered evil or dangerous just because you were born with the wrong genitalia, while by default the people with the other type of genitalia can't be rapists.
Right now, something about the conversation is just not working. There must be a way to get the men who are not okay with rape to be angry at those who are, instead of getting them to feel like they're being lumped in with the rapists by default. The fact that you post "a lot of men are rapists though" in a significant portion of your comments, makes you part of it. Even constantly posting the statistics isn't actually helping advance anyone's understanding, pretty much everyone already knows most rapes are perpetrated by men. Far fewer people know about the untested rape kit backlog (though fortunately that's also been in the news this cycle, that's how I found out for one), or how often women who report being raped (including the Jane Doe at Cornell) aren't offered rape kits - and those should be offered by default, not asked for by the victim, who in distress might not even realize that's an option. This particular Jane Doe didn't outright say "I was raped" to the doctor, but she did hint at it, which every medical professional needs to be able to catch and react to. So many issues people need to be educated about, instead of being lectured about the one thing everyone already knows.
overarching conversation is about how we prevent horrific crimes like gang rape is a choice a lot of men are making in here.
That is not how the conversation is framed. The conversation is framed on shaming and bullying all men, because some men are rapist. Why are you surprised that many react negatively to it?
If you feel it’s more important to soothe men’s hurt feelings about being in the same group as most rapists rather than focusing on how we reduce rape, y
Do you remember the bear in the woods?
If the narrative (in the mass media) was about reducing rape, it would be focused on HOW to do it. Not on tar and feather. This is not productive, this is airing anger.
I live in the EU (location is important in rape prevention discussion), a country in dead center of it. There was once a panel about rape prevention in tv, some minor politician, that's it.
Noone really offers any solutions, even in this thread, so I can well damn start.
There are multiple reasons why people commit rape, how they do, why thy feel enabled. Those are ALWAYS tied to the culture, as law doesn't prevent crime, only dictates punishments.
Do we agree on that?
Lets distinguish native rape crimes from foreign-born rape crimes, and focus only on the first (example, Germany, 40% perpetrators are foreign born).
Continuing on our example, Germany, when asked and studied, convinced rapists often turn out to be societal "losers", with reinforced online presence especially in "incel" and similar circles, including blackpill etc communities. Even the underground ones. When studied, psychologists often ascribe the crime to entitlement or desire for domination. The future rapists feel validated by anonymous people online, until the thought of commiting rape normalizes in their heads.
I can't be the only person who thinks the solution to this particular portion of the problem (in our example likely the largest) is quite simple: mandatory online ids, that remove the possibility of anonymous circles. Break the enablers group.
rapists rather than focusing on how we reduce rape,
Me
Okay, lets focus on reducing rape then. Gives an example.
Also you
The majority of rapists are men though.
Okay. Can we get back to taking about reducing rape? I gave a proposal, an okay analysis of one facet of it, do you have an opinion on it? Your own thoughts? If you do not want to share them, then that is also okay, but I do believe sincerely that calling "we should focus on it" and then not focusing on it, is not going to be helpful.
The conversation is framed on shaming and bullying all men, because some men are rapist. Why are you surprised that many react negatively to it?
No, let's be clear here. You are complaining that the majority of rapists are men and that people are accurately pointing that out.
There's two direct approaches that are being actively discussed here - punish rapists appropriately and teach our children about consent and respecting boundaries.
I also believe that the media pressure is calling all the men rapists.
I was trying to convey that having any kind of movement (because to decrease the rape rate, we will need to have a grassroot movement to push the issue) that alienates part of society, will not be successful. And campaigning on hurting the feelings of men is a bad, pointless idea. Why do it. What for? That's not solving the problem.
I will reply to the second part separately, it will be easier that way
There’s two direct approaches that are being actively discussed here - punish rapists appropriately.
Punishment is reactive. No law prevents crime. Even capital punishment did not lower the crime rate to 0.
USA has 2.5 times higher rape rate than Germany (and Germany has no means no laws, that meant to help reporting rapes).
It could be that - if that is your country - you need stricter judicial punishments for rape! But do note that is not the ultimate solution. It can be one of first steps necessary in your country, but won't be the last.
our children about consent and respecting boundaries.
Again (comparing Germany and USA rates) this seems to be step in correct direction, but at best it will get you somewhere in the ballpark of Germany rate (progress, but not ideal).
I do believe my proposal (mandatory online Id) would be a next step in the solution - but then I am stomped.
Even capital punishment did not lower the crime rate to 0.
Harsher sentencing doesn't necessarily help beyond a certain minimum level required to make people consider it a meaningful punishment. The more important thing is consistent and vigorous application of the law. If people aren't even being investigated, let alone charged or convicted, they're going to feel emboldened to continue offending.
40% of foreign born convicted offenders doesn't sound as a surprise, as it still make 60% of national convicted offenders (despite our education, culture, and other similar things we use to think ourself different). Also, the majority of "loosers" in the convicted people could hide some inequality ("winners" being protected).
The cases I personaly know aren't representative. But they happend in the middle class, by family members, and the victims were requested to keep silence by their whole family. To protect the honor and integrity of the family, and because they "would be responsible" of spliting the family. And if the victim don't go to police, their is "no case" (officially, in the stats)...
Also, when the accused is from high class, they are rarely convicted. Most find a way to escape it, even when as Dominique Strauss-Khan the facts are clear (you have heared about it, but you forgot); their money and power allow them to avoid infamy. Not condemn, so not part of the numbers.
Also, the number of cases rising from the past let me think their are not more cases now thanks to Internet, but that Internet allows victim to unite so they dare speak. Restricting internet anonymity could reduce this and turn them back to silence, which would make less cases in tribunals and papers, but most likely more cases in real.
But so, I feel like giving to kids an education about this, and letting them know they have spaces to talk about the problems they may live or witness, and providing such spaces (not only for kids) to listen them anonimously, and accompany them ; is an easy and cheap step which could help a lot. Or am I wrong?
Germany rape rate per 100k is higher than South Korea. Are you asking for a cwtch all magical solution from the start? I'm not a god.
Also, you sound like a white nationalist, so fuck off.
(Me literally making sure noone would try to go that way)
Same to you too I guess (apparently mod is biased that I am not allowed to use the same words as you).
And I do find it abhorring that you're going for bullying and airing your anger instead of trying to even discuss how bring the solutiin into existence
You blamed rape on "foreign-born" people, and said it was a "cultural problem". Considering that you also used the prosecuted rate (which would inherently target minorities by virtue of systemic injustices and bias your results) as opposed to using something that would more accurately show the true population of sexual assaults (such as reported sexual assaults), it kinda tips your hand that you're dogwhistling white supremacy talking points.
Also, I point out South Korea because your solution sucks. A better solution is to not protect sexual assaulters. Fun fact, most sexual assaults aren't prosecuted, and even more aren't reported, and you know who gets shit on for that? Women! I hear from men, more often than I should, that women should report their assaults, and in the same breath, talk about how they have to prove they were assaulted. And if you think about that, like really think about it, having to find the proof you were assaulted is fucking insane. The police constantly lose rape kits or don't even fucking do them. Accusers are harassed nonstop. People speculate about what the woman did to get herself into that situation, but never the fucking man. No, a false accusation could ruin his fucking life, but being sexually assaulted somehow means you have to be the one to prove a crime happened.
Why is it so fucking hard for people to wonder why sexual assault is so underreported?
You blamed rape on “foreign-born” people, and said it was a “cultural problem”.
Please read my post again. I wrote that according to statistics about 40% of rapes are committed in Germany by foreign born people, and that I literally will ignore it for the rest of my post. Like literally literally.
What are you arguing with? Statistics? Me saying I am going to ignore that because it could be tainted, and then quoted psychologists reports that only targeted native Germans, again ignoring foreign born pops to not taint?
After removing the foreign born population from the discussion, I wrote that rape occurrence is directly related to culture of the country/people (meaning, again, ignoring foreign borns part because that could be tainted).
And then you came, swinging some white supremacist shit.
such as reported sexual assaults)
Literally the number I used.
Also, I point out South Korea because your solution sucks
Why? You gave no argument nor reason why it would suck.
The police constantly lose rape kits or don’t even fucking do them. Accusers are harassed nonstop
Literally what I called culture.
Now you are ascribing USA police culture of rape perpetrator protection to German police. Excuse me, but I know nothing of USA's. Literally (I keep using this word a lot when replying to your comment, it is frustrating) mentioned that in my first post.
To add, it isn't just prejudice in conversations but social inclusion, workspace hostility, and community resource allocation biases. It is a prejudice when women prefer less men around, especially in public spaces and spaces meant to be shared. But some prejudices are more equal than others.
Supporting women doesn't mean never supporting men.
Boys and men are often harmed by messaging around sexual assault that says over and over, all men are violent people who cause harm. Supporting the men caught in the crossfire between women's advocacy and sexually predatory men,can exist without undermining the effort for women. However, if your efforts to change or erase male behavior can't be accomplished without harming innocent men, then why should those men, or society, support that effort? How can they? You've decided some people can be sacrificed for the interests of women without their consent. That isn't advocacy, it's supremacy.
Your points are correct but I disagree with your conclusion. It's not deciding that some people will be sacrificed (also a bit extreme of a word choice for feeling put out by discussions of a demographic you belong to), it changing the proportion of people sacrificed in the hopes of reducing the number of people raped. The shift is away from teaching women that it's all on them. Their fault or their responsibility. Objecting when the balance changes says that it's not sacrifice you object to, but it being men. "The status quo is better than the cost of fixing it".
When you ask why men should support anti rape education if it makes them feel bad, the answer is supposed to be "because they understand rape is worse than the cognitive discomfort of discussing awful things people like them did".
Most men don’t personally know a man who was a perpetrator
According to the USA's statistics (I will use it here because it is quite high), it is about 5 rapists per 100 000 people.
A lot of offenders are multiple offenders. Comparing that to the reported rape occurrences and the actual estimations, assuming average lifespan of 75, if a man is 30 he needs to personally know ~60 men his age to statistically know a rapist, and about 28 men his age if he is 60.
I do not think therefore your sentence is true. I do believe that most men personally know a rapist, but hopefully they don't know about it.
Most women personally know another woman who was a victim
According to the USA's statistics (I will use it here because it is quite high), it is 37.5 per 100 000 people.
This is yearly data. Estimates are that in the USA only 1 in 4 performed rapes is reported. Assuming an average life of 80 years, and (from USA statistics that about 80% of victims are younger than 30), a 30 years old woman needs to know 6 women to statistically know a rape victim. And among 70 years old, just 5.
Cause you are most likely to know them but not know they're perpetrators. Remember, you're most likely to get SA'd by someone you know vs someone you don't know. It could be a relative of yours. It could be a friend you least expected or most expected. But don't expect you would know who it was or would be.
Most women personally know another woman who was a victim
Most men don’t personally know a man who was a perpetrator
Points 4 and 5 are contradictory. Assuming men and women are in equal proportions in the population and distribute normally, the only way this would be possible is if somehow all the men in a single neighbourhood commit all the rapes around the city. This doesn't stand up to common sense.
The real problem here is arguments of authority are presented without the possibility to disagree with them, even as they don't hold up on face value.
They aren't contradictory if a drastically small portion of men are doing a hell of a lot of sexual violence.
That said, point 5 should be "most men do not believe/know any men they know are rapists". That can take many forms, such as not knowing their work buddy's personal life, thinking serious offenses are less serious than they are, not seeing any warning signs, choosing not to see warning signs, not recognizing warning signs…
Most rapists seem to not be telling the guys that they're raping people (though I'm a chick so idk), they're keeping quiet, hiding it, reframing it, etc. And most men aren't shown/don't learn the signs that a guy is predatory, in something I think can be compared to how people raised with a narcissist in the household can sense it, while those who weren't may not be able to see through the charming mask.
Distribution of male rapists also can't be assumed to be uniform. So clusters will create spaces where significantly fewer men know a male rapist, which will skew the median significantly.
Victims and perpetrators aren't 1-1. Sexual violence isn't distributed normally - minority of men commit a majority of the sexual assault.
Knowledge of that perpetrator is spread through the network of every woman they victimize, while it is limited to his own personal network of male non-victims.
This is before considering the fact that people are more likely to discuss being a victim than being a rapist. Even if each rapist had exactly 1 victim, it would still be more likely for women to know someone who was raped than for the male acquaintances of the perpetrator to know that they know a rapist. Doubly so given that many rapes are not officially reported, and many that are do not get prosecuted.
I have many uncles and male cousins. I don't think any of them are rapists, but the stats are pretty decent at least one is. All of my aunts have stories of perverse behavior by males, and one was kidnapped and raped repeatedly.
This report focused exclusively on college men in the United States and Canada.
also
Though we found an overall prevalence rate of approximately 29%, this is strongly associated with measurement strategy and may be an over- or underestimate.
however
Our results provide strong evidence of the widespread nature of sexual violence perpetration on college campuses and the need for greater resources to understand and prevent this behavior that undermines the health and safety of so many people.
I'm not a man, but I don't feel like we should be guilting boys by insulting their entire gender, something they didn't choose to be, and for something they likely have no desire to do themselves. That's how you push people into the manosphere, looksmaxxing, alpha males and stuff, because they feel like they're not accepted by progressive people because of their gender.
I am convinced that if #metoo was 10 years early, before I developed self esteem, I would have FOR SURE fallen into the manosphere. I just wanted to be accepted while popular culture regularly reminded me every day that the people I care about (mostly women, I had no male role models) think I'm evil.
I knew I had problems but I wasn't evil so who would I have listened to? Probably the group saying I'm good and cool and strong just for existing. The group promising to help me fix my self esteem.
I get it now, I know they're not saying ALL men. But the problem I still have with the popularity of that hyperbole is that it alienates the most vulnerable young men.
I don't have a solution to suggest. Just wanted to share my experience to support your stance.
The post doesn't exist without the context surrounding the discussion. Quite a lot of the discussion I've heard is people bending over backwards to say they know it isn't all men but that it's okay to say all men are the problem.
but that it’s okay to say all men are the problem.
Where?
The majority of rapists are men. That's the truth. We need to be able to acknowledge that if we're going to get anywhere near reducing rape and sexual assault.
This whole thing is a shitstorm on tiktok. My wife has been perpetually pissed off about it so I've heard plenty of people making these claims, men and women, from there.
No one is refuting of disagreeing that point, just that there are better ways of making that statement then shutting down innocent people defending themselves. Prejudice and stereotyping is wrong, doesn't matter who it's targeted at.
This seems like an odd thing to say. Like it doesn't matter if it's true or not, just which "team" is saying it.
I'm personally at 0% risk of slipping into the manosphere, but can you see how this sort of talk would push somebody more vulnerable into it? All I've said is that men are treated differently because they're suspected of being rapists and according to this thread I'm a) a conservative (nope) and b) part of the problem (i.e. I'm a rapist?). I'd never usually say anything because I know this is the way discussions always go, but I guess I was feeling ambitious today.
I just think it's fair to be upset about being treated differently because of the way you were born. You can't immediately start pigeonholing people if they show the slightest annoyance at being treated like a rapist.
Framed this as a question because YMMV. I've seen this take in manosphere-adjacent spaces as a response to whatever allegations are in the news. "Oh, now all men are rapists, huh?" or something like that. Without addressing the allegation itself, of course. It's like they are creating this monster that just loves ruining men's lives by wrongly accusing them of rape. It happens, yeah, but it's not the point, the point is to radicalize men into thinking that women are not equal to men.
I've met people (usually having traumatic experiences) who really think that "all men" are whatever. But this is an outlier in my book. In social media this point can be exaggerated (plus, "controversial opinion = engagement" plague) so I guess it can influence some people's opinions and views. But I still think the majority of people are not as radical.
Whining about being part of the same group that most rapists belong to when the overarching conversation is about how we prevent horrific crimes like gang rape is a choice a lot of men are making in here.
I see it coming from many many progressives and often very agitated women (not saying they shouldn't be agitated) who seem to be lashing out at a generalization of those who have hurt them.
Most of them genuinely believe it, too. Everyone knows rape is evil, and everyone thinks that they're a good person, and since good people don't do evil things, they can't be rapists. They'll do all kinds if mental gymnastics to avoid critically examining whether any of the sex they've had was actually rape. She was asking for it, he couldn't help himself, she didn't say no, she was into it at first, she was leading him on, she just wants attention. These guys will come up with any excuse that keeps them the "good guys."
The point is that the subset of men who sexually assault get let off the hook often (e.g. Brock Turner only serving 3 months). It's like saying "Not all Catholic priests are child molesters". Yes, that's true, but it misses the point. The ones who are don't get punished. (Or they get a slap on the wrist.)
Yes, the Catholic church has a problem with protecting molesters. Nobody feels the need to point out that it's not all priests because nobody claims it is. You can even say that even those who don't should do whatever they can to change it, including quitting. What I don't understand is the insistence on punchy, but obviously wrong phrases that always make the conversation more toxic.
Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all teach that women are inferior possessions of men. That's the "faith" of about 70% of people in USA.
Do they all believe that women are inferior? No, many do not. But, it's one more excuse to be an asshole.
(all of these religions are tax free, with benefits far and above any non-profit. Each of these religions are unfathomably wealthy and have been acquiring wealth at sword point for centuries, aren't they rich enough yet?)
It doesn't matter what you think. They have a census and everything, almost 50% claim to be Christian, I'll believe their claims about their faith over your claim that is based on the 50 people you know.
I bet they know better than you about themselves.
Besides, Britain or USA, the point remains identical. Christian history remains real, and Christian influence continues to permeate.
Lastly... Cornell is in USA, so just admit defeat and sulk away. I was being kind to your point for your sake, friend.
If you are a man, you probably wont rape someone. However, if you were raped, it was almost certainly done by A man. You can blame the individual, for sure, but you can also blame the people who know these things about a rapist and continue to associate with them, or fail to teach their sons how to react, or fail to dissuade locker room talk that can lead to dangerous thoughts, or fail to sufficiently shame manosphere creators/followers.
Toxic masculinity is a male issue, and more importantly its everyone's issue. It takes a villiage and all that
It's always interesting to be a woman lurking in these sort of niche, male-dominated spaces. By interesting, I mean rage-inducing. Thanks for another great post, Velma.
This was always a pet peeve of mine, if "all men" is an obvious simplification, why is it that the people pointing it out are the stupid ones, and not the ones using an obviously weak argument?
The post is complaining that the counter movement #notallmen is obviously right, and also that it's a trite counter argument to what is assumedly (and commonly) a claim of "all men X".
They are arguing that "All men X" should obviously not be taken as literally "all men", but as a shorthand for "systemically enough men that the behaviour continues to exist so that almost 30% of men will do X at some point in their life".
And that anyone saying "well, not all men" just isn't listening.
I've been flying a pride and blm flag since 2020 ish. An asshole maga moves in nearby and 2 days after I change from pride to blm they put up a alm flag. I was so proud to trigger the snowflake
Women do horrifying, bigoted shit too. They just aren't taken as seriously when they do it. Men aren't some different species from women.
Why aren't claims of women doing horrifying, bigoted shit taken seriously? It's because women very often lack the power to do horrifying, bigoted shit effectively. Men are also assumed to have such a disproportionate amount of power that it shouldn't be possible for them to be victims. As you point out, this is bad for both men and women.
Men are, generally, given more power (and often power over women)in a majority of scenarios. Men are also trained by culture and society to have certain expectations (from the society around them and the women present in it). This all comes together and results in a disproportionate quantity of bad shit being done by men (and often to women). The whole system needs fixing.
I mean men generally have more power than women, but that doesn't mean all men have more power than all women. It doesn't make sense to assume men can't be victimized, because reality doesn't support that.
What you should expect to see is that men are generally the perpetrators, and women are generally the victim. I don't know about you, but that's pretty much what I see.
I don't know why so many people are so willing to die on the hill of "THE WORLD IS BLACK AND WHITE, THIS GROUP BAD, OTHER GROUP GOOD". Like I don't understand how people jump from most to all so easily without even a moment of cognitive dissonance.
I mean, I can hardly remember a significant sample size of specific events of gang rape.
And way, female on male sexual violence is taken even less seriously than the reverse. Many countries don't even legally consider it rape.
Pretending that male victims or female perpetrators don't exist is only covering for rapists.
Like, obviously, the majority of reported sexual assault perpetrators are men, and the majority of sexual assault victims are women, or that unreported cases likely follow the same trend. But the idea that it's always a man is objectively false.
No one is pretending male victims dont exist, or that women can't be perpetrators. Claiming that is muddying the waters
Men are overwhelmingly perpetrators of sexual crimes. If you get upset by people pointing this simple fact out, or have to challenge it with "what about female sexual violence" , you need to sit with yourself and ask why.
Yet all men are deeply distrusted by default. Maybe "the point" is that men are people too and people deserve love? Maybe the idea that we can't judge an entire race/ethnicity/religion/gender/group based on the actions of a few also applies to men?
"Imagine a bowl of M&Ms. 10% of them are poisoned. Go ahead. Eat a handful. Not all M&Ms are poison."
Many people picture rape as an attack by a stranger. But FBI crime data shows that 76% of reported rapes are perpetrated by someone the victim already knew.
These perpetrators include acquaintances, friends, and neighbors; romantic partners and spouses; and parents, siblings, and other family members.
Genuinely not trying to be obtuse, but I think a reading of "not all men" is what one could describe as not preemptively grouping yourself with them. It reads to me, perhaps naïvely, as drawing a line perhaps with that specific goal? No one disputes the existence of men, and "not all men" implies two groups, no?
What do you envision as a way to communicate a distinction such that you don't suggest you're not a man, but also say you're not a rapist?
I live a quite full life with wonderful people, no need to worry about me. I'm just posting the news - when rape stories stop being written, I'll stop posting them.
People can be terrible. It's good to not be ignorant to that.
Yeah so as a guy raised around man hating women it took a very long time for me to stop hating women because of the bullshit they projected onto me just because I had a penis.
Teach your sons how to be good men but don't constantly shove your trauma down their throats or they're gonna end up becoming the very men you despise.
You know, there's a quote about the Holocaust from a student from Germany that I will always remember: "It is not [my] fault, but it is [my] responsibility."
And I kinda feel like that's the sort of mentality men should have about this problem. Maybe you didn't rape women. Maybe you had to deal with man-hating women. Maybe you suffered trauma for being a man.
Personally, none of those things sort of excuse hating women, especially because this post is about the systems of oppression women face, especially in regards to sexual assault and society's willingness to overlook it. Like, I get that many men have similar stories to you, but when you post about how you struggled to overcome your hate for women, I'm frankly baffled why you think anyone, let alone women, would fucking care? Do you want to people to congratulate you for being a better person? Okay, good job, keep doing the bare minimum people would expect. But, frankly, your post doesn't even contain information that might help someone in your situation because all you did was blame women in your life for your hate. So, in all due kindness, fuck off or take responsibility. I don't care which.
I will be extraordinarily fair and say it is not your fault you developed hate for women, but it should be your fucking responsibility to stop hate for women, especially as you are more complicit than others. But me saying all this will probably make you then act like you are the victim in this exchange for getting called out instead of doing your part to help others.
It's funny, I was raised the exact opposite, In a house with men who hated women(and shoved thier truama at me, ehem).. and I dont hate men, never did, just a few specific people.
I'm not saying that, though I can see why you'd think so. I'm saying that pushing all of your trauma onto your kids normally backfires and causes them to be the very thing you hate.
Don't call your son a rapist just because they're a man. Just like don't call your daughter a whore just because she's a woman. More often than not it causes them to end up with the very mindset you're trying to avoid.
Just teach them to be good people. No sexism involved.
I'm not motivated by men telling me what to do. I'll reply when I see fit.
Just teach them to be good people. No sexism involved.
Yes and part of that is teaching boys that they have a responsibility to use their strength and power and privilege to not subjugate others for their own selfish wants. Teaching them this does not mean they are being called rapists.
You don't need to give women warnings that if we don't raise our sons right, if we don't treat men right, if we don't act right, that we are responsible for being raped.
I'm not motivated by men telling me what to do. I'll reply when I see fit
That was meant to be a joke to lighten the tone considering the subject here. Apologies.
I'm not trying to say women are completely responsible. Father's have just as much, if not more, sway in their sons. My point is don't add fuel to the fire.
I’m not trying to say women are completely responsible. Father’s have just as much, if not more, sway in their sons. My point is don’t add fuel to the fire.
You have only commented about women and mothers here. If you don't want people to take your comments at face value about that, then you should be sure to include what fathers and men can do to help prevent rape as well.
Only 30 states even bother to report on it. The other 20 are like "meh just throw it in the garbage"
Just ONE "pro-woman" company could step forward and cover this. Catholic Church, this is loose change for them. Oprah. A dozen CEOs.
(there are like 20K kits in backlog officially, so let's say it's 2 MILLION in backlog for sake of argument. At $100 a kit (being very generous) that would be like $200 million dollars)
Alright, I'm going to shut this compartment of my brain off for now, beep boop, rage error
I probably shouldn't have commented in the first place but here we are.
I get the sentiment here and truly understand this posts intent and meaning and the message behind it but the problem is the type of man that would do these horrible things is gonna completely ignore it. All it really does is make young boys think all women hate them just for existing which drives them towards the very men who do these things because they don't treat them like the scum of the earth just for existing.
I don't have a solution to the problem. Tbh I'm kind of a misanthrope and see humanity as a whole as a lost cause in the first place. But I can tell you from personal experience that constantly hearing about all men being trash does nothing but cause men to hate women and want to do things that hurt them as a result.
You can teach your sons how to be good people without giving them trauma by constantly telling them they're inherently evil just because they have a penis.
No one is advocating for hating all men and boys here. The people in here pushing that women hate all men are being disingenuous as fuck and focusing the conversation on soothing men’s feelings instead of actually talking about the issue of rape.
Except this whole post is about how women say "all men" and men refuting that.
Violence against women is a serious problem. Rape, murder, physical/emotional torture. They all exist and it's abhorrent in every sense.
As I've said before, teach your sons how to be good people but stop putting your trauma on them. A mother telling her son all the bad things men have done to her is one thing. A mother telling her son that all men are evil is completely different.
I'm not trying to take away from the fact that a lot of men raise their sons this way. I hate those men with a burning passion. I'm just saying that all these posts and messages and shit aren't helping, and in a lot of cases are actually making things worse, because the type of man that would do these things isn't gonna listen and the type of man that wouldn't do these things is gonna feel attacked because they know they'd never do those things.
Idk how to fix the problem. I'm not part of it. I call other men out for their behavior. I've personally stopped several men from hurting women. But I'm still lumped in because it's "all men".
A mother telling her son that all men are evil is completely different.
Buddy, please, listen to me. This is a conversation happening in your head only. Listen to the words actually being said and not the ones you feel like you're hearing.
the type of man that wouldn't do these things is gonna feel attacked because they know they'd never do those things.
Can you explain how this knowledge is hurting anyone? To me, I mean: as a man, I need to know how I'm being attacked here.
all these posts and messages and shit aren't helping,
The way that we prevent a majority of these rapes and accidental rapes from happening is overwhelming social pressure. It is very difficult to do something like this while people are watching.
You are actually working against the solution by being such a twit about the subject.
I say "accidental rapes," by the way, because there are a lot of men out there who literally do not know they're doing it because they have not been taught consent.
But I'm still lumped in because it's "all men".
As I say to all men I talk to about this, you are putting yourself in that category. I don't know why. It seems kind of fucking stupid. Like as if you were arming a bear trap while standing in the center of it.
And don't get on me for being mean to you, by the way, because as much sympathy as I have for you, and as much as I want you to finally get it and succeed, I find your attitude about this to be really fucking annoying. It's tiresome talking to people like you about this.
Oh trust me I'm aware of who Simon is and I feel disgusting debating all this because I understand the real meaning behind it.
I'm just trying to say the messaging isn't reaching or impacting the men you're trying to call out. All it's doing is causing boys who did nothing to fall down the alt-right pipeline that leads to becoming the men you're trying to call out
It's so odd. My upbringing turned me into a people pleaser for too long. I was 14 and giving my drunk step father life advice/therapy, of course to which idk. I was 14, and trying to help. He did make me hate myself, but, I knew women werent evil, and it was a "him" problem.
Honestly, I knew my family was messed up because of shows like Full House, Family Matters, and Fresh Prince. Media, in this age, is the only connection I can make, how I survived this wrath without "pilling" myself into some complex. I of course have had complexes to work through over the years, but never did I want to hurt others based on my hurt inside. I hurt inside, I wanted to give out kindness. I dont know why I went this way, and others go the opposite. Them shows in early childhood modeled how a "normal" family works.. I guess? I took it seriously at that age, to be morally upstanding, even as everyone around me was grey at best.
I too a bit of a misanthrope, lately anyway, but I have a son. It comes down to parents needing to be emotionally ready to teach thier kids, and lead by example. idk, i dont have answers, but I appreciate your honesty here.
Maybe they're too busy dealing with the constant assault on their identity by people telling them who they need to be without regard to who they actually are.
Fathers have a responsibility to not pass down their rapist tendencies to their children regardless of the weights of the world that we all have to deal with one way or another.
ah yes.. the good old all men are (x) discussion. Look like lemmy is not immune to the gender class warfare.
Yes, evil men (and women too btw) exists. But you know what? We all know it. Blanket statements like all men, all women x, etc are useless parroting that achieve nothing. Thrown around online as if it was going to somehow magically fix anything. But spoiler, all it does is widening the gap of any constructive discussion between gender.
Look at the chat, you see people being in two camps, and its always the same conversation over and over. And you know why its always the same? because this discussion is a fallacy. its a generalization gender based on a minority that is actually affected by power, economic and social status.
If you want to actually make the conversation constructive instead of throwing gas and flame around, how about we give recommendations on how to teach young boy how to treat women correctly? Helping men to figure out what are the telltale sign of what to look for of misbehavior. how to teach women how to identify, protect and the importance of informing safely?
You wont make men listen by just saying they are the enemy on the first sentence, and the worst of all it might just alienate the good one (making them less likely to open about it).
I know when you say all the men dont actualy include literally all. But come on. Its like saying all poor are thieves, or all police officier are violent.
But it's also true that not all men choose to actively contribute to the wealth of anti-trans activists, but Simon here is a voice actor in the re-release cash grab Harry Potter audiobooks.
I had a similar experience. It was a thread talking about how "willing and consensual" 14 year old girls are around rock stars.
It was fucking disgusting. Honestly that is what set my entire tone for how I operate on this site. I'm not usually this much of an "SJW", but this place fucking needs some of that energy to balance the absolute degeneracy and misogyny that's openly allowed.
Genuine question- how early do you think such teaching should occur? Because for many of us (women), predation on us starts much younger than men seem to realize. The truth is, if we were to focus on teaching women to avoid groomers, we’d need to have full-on courses on psychology for elementary schoolers.
Now let’s logically follow through your idea here. So if we were to successfully teach girls (because again, if you wait to teach “women” then you’re already too late) to avoid “confident” men, what’s going to happen? Hm seems like a lot of boys would end up being avoided by girls, treated pre-emptively as rapists. Isn’t that what the manosphere complains about already? That girls and women don’t “give guys a chance” or what-have-you?
You know what women actually respond to in the real world? Status, confidence, being one of the boys, ie being part of a group that seems important/dominant in some way, money. And what do women detest in many cases? Being unimportant/meek, nerdy, short, etc
This is the exactly the type toxic masculinity you are whining about.
Stop blaming women for the bullshit that men do to us.
Consider the example I gave earlier, a man Joe is being sleazy, grabbing girls on the ass and making crass uninvited comments, ie being a pest. One girl Jane speaks up and says this is out of place, and looks for recognition that this shouldn't be socially acceptable. Most people ignore her. A second guy Jack brings up the issue and says hey we shouldn't let this happen, and a chorus of girls, Jenny, Mary and Kate respond saying it's just some fun, the guy is from a different country, don't be a pain.
The girls here are part of the problem, and are facilitating toxic masculinity. This is a real life situation I have seen first hand up close.
Short answers saying all men are the problem and women can't do anything and stop blaming the victim, and avoiding the real issue that women also create the environments that toxic masculinity thrives in, and can take steps to stop it.
But instead you get brain rot comments like "stop blaming women", which are just dismissive and miss the whole point
The fact that you come onto a post about a woman who was raped by multiple men, a post that says “of course we know it’s not all men, it’s too many”, and then proceed to whine about women and call them girls makes you an unsafe person.
Yes. They are stupid fucking hashtags. If that is all you got from Simon Pegg’s post then you need to work on your reading comprehension skills. Disgusting
Buddy, you were close to making a good point, but this is not a tactful way to say what you're trying to say. This is victim blaming.
We should teach boys not to be rapists.
Teaching girls how to spot a rapist is not a bad thing either, as long as teaching boys not to be rapists is still the priority.
But women who date rapist men are not "part of the problem", they are often the victims of rape. They are the victims, and you are directing blame at them. Fuck off with that toxic shit.
You're missing the point, the #notallmen stuff is referring to wider culture, and how people enable it. This is outside of individual perpetrators and victims, so you can't narrow the focus on just that.
Yes men that participate in toxic masculinity further this environment.
But also, women that participate in toxic masculinity also enable it, and should also be part of the conversation.
This is not victim blaming in any way shape or form
Cold as the last ring of hell take: criminals must be punished. Without punishment men will continue raping, harassing, stalking, groping, etc. because they know they will be just fine, especially if they are in power.
Part of punishment is deterrence. Perpetrators are protected by their community and their wealth. They think that they won't get caught, and if they do get caught they won't get punished, and if they do get punished, the punishment will be minimal. Worst case scenario: daddy will hire an expensive lawyer to get them off the hook.
Nobody would propose that we prevent murder by allowing murderers to get off scot-free and focusing on murder prevention.
I'm not sure that you understand what toxic masculinity is. For one thing, a confident man isn't necessarily a rapist, and a meek, nerdy man isn't necessarily safe. Nerdy guys can hold ideas from toxic masculinity, too. There is no rapist bingo card that tells a woman whether a man is safe or not.
You're right that dangerous individuals are impossible to spot from any traits like that. I am referring to toxic masculinity as a culture or environment, like chauvinism, condescending attitudes, sleaziness and so on, this is visible and obvious.
I was saying that from my experience women can be very accepting of this behaviour and actively facilitate it depending on who is doing it. I gave an example of a situation involving people I knew well where they stood up for someone being an obvious pest because they found it fun or sexy in some way, while other women involved were mortified at the behaviour. Women can and do facilitate toxic masculinity, but the conversation is always directed at men like they are the only ones that interact with dodgy people
It’s a nice sentiment but the truth is that education is collapsing in general. We can’t even teach kids to read, write, and do arithmetic anymore, let alone comprehend basic human rights, dignity, consent, and respect for others’ autonomy.
Look what’s happening to the world, with all the radicalism, racism, fascism, and all out assault on the working and middle classes with AI and automation. How are kids going to get any job (never mind college) when they’re multiple years behind grade level on every subject? We’ll be lucky if we can keep these kids out of gangs over the next decade or so!
Teaching our sons to not sexually harass, assault or demean women is not our education system’s job. It’s ours. All parents, and siblings and extended family members as well.
We teach our children in how we behave and what we accept without comment in our media, or in the world at large. It may be obvious to us when a guy harassing women on tv is the bad guy, but maybe the kids aren’t figuring that part out.
It needs to be called out explicitly so they grow up calling it out in their friends, rather than going along to get along.
Teaching our sons to not sexually harass, assault or demean women is not our education system’s job. It’s ours. All parents, and siblings and extended family members as well.
We teach our children in how we behave and what we accept without comment in our media, or in the world at large. It may be obvious to us when a guy harassing women on tv is the bad guy, but maybe the kids aren’t figuring that part out.
It needs to be called out explicitly so they grow up calling it out in their friends, rather than going along to get along.
The whole issue is culture. If boys were always taught that it's not ok by society, we wouldn't have the problem in the first place. But you need an environment that doesn't normalize sexual assault for that, which not everyone has. Introducing these topics in schools is for those kids. And then maybe that generation can grow up to universally no longer need it in school.
Gonna repeat my point elsewhere - it’s both. These men knew what they were doing and should be punished appropriately. We also need to teach our children about consent and boundaries and respect.
There’s a very serious rise in acceptance of misogyny right now and it’s important to tackle the full breadth of the problem.
So get rid of fraternities. That would be more effective than some platitude about what we need to teach our sons as if most of us didn't already know rape is bad. Like those stupid annual sexual harassment workshops I had to do at my old job. You know what those taught me? Not a damn thing I didn't already know, and anyone who didn't would be too stupid to function.
It's almost like bad people will do bad things, regardless of what they know.
What I meant is what percentage of a population are degenerate scumbags and what educational metrics are we going to badger the entire male population with as if we're all mentally retarded? At what percentage will we pass a desired threshold we deem acceptable?
Look, I'm a male. No one explicitly gave me a lesson on not raping people that taught me something like a revelation. Yet I would never, and if I were aware of such things going on I'd intervene. No man in my life would do such a thing. I've seen figures as low as .012% to as high as 30%. Nobody knows anything for sure and data on this is all over the place, flawed, and difficult to acquire.
Was this case a horror? Yep. Does that mean I agree there's a large enough population of degenerate men that warrants a systemic change in male education? No.
Get rid of fraternities and sororities? Sure. Get alcohol and drugs out of campuses? Sure.
Start treating all men as a whole like we're too dumb to know rape is immoral? I don't think that's going to have any impact whatsoever. You think those 57 men were a lecture away from meaningful change?
27,000 attend Cornell University. 57 men is 0.2% of the entire population there.
The original post is "Durrrr of course it's not ALL men. But it's A LOT." So if THAT'S a lot, that's a borderline meaningless statement.
I just like specificity. No bs vague crap like "a lot" because people are too dumb and too emotional to bring data to the table. Who exactly are we going to teach what and to what desired goal?
Start treating all men as a whole like we’re too dumb to know rape is immoral?
Consent and bodily autonomy do need to be taught. This isn't some knowledge that you're born with. Sure, a guy might know that "rape is wrong", but they might not understand that somebody could be too intoxicated to consent for example.
Off topic, how does consent and intoxication work if both parties are under the influence, anyway?
Looks at comment section
Yeah... For the sake of avoiding unnecessary toxicity in this hypothetical, let's go with two people of the same gender. Men, women, whatever. They get heavily drunk, end up sleeping together. Next morning, mayhem ensues. What happens? Are both parties guilty? Neither? Does it matter who initiated? Levels of intoxication? Degree of shame and regret?
That's what you think the problem was? That that entire group chat of Ivy Leaguers was simply uneducated on consent? I think that's... Adorable. And naive.
I think that they were brought up to believe that either this kind of behavior is okay or, at least, that they wouldn't be punished for it. Or if they were punished, it wouldn't be severe.
I believe that there are plenty of men out there who think that if she consents, then it can't be rape, even if she isn't in a state of mind where she can consent. I don't find that hard to believe at all.
What do you think the reason is? Are some people just born rapists?
You know what's weird? When conservatives say you can't teach about slavery because their children will feel guilty. Always found that weird cuz I never felt guilty. I feel that the horrors of the past can be evaluated and understood so they won't be repeated in the future. Guilt has never crossed my mind. At least not personal guilt, societal guilt is another matter.
It's always been my Inkling that people who do feel personal guilt are the ones who are forced to face something about themselves. About their own biases. About their own prejudices. About their own bigotry. About the way they live their lives and take advantage of their fellow man. About how they choose not to improve the system and would rather ignore injustices. That they feel guilty because they have a guilty conscience.
Not sure why that came to mind while reading your comment...
Only confusing part is why you think anyone is grouping you with rapists. Unless you feel there’s a reason you should be grouped with them?
The point of this entire post is that of course it’s not all men. But it’s a lot of men and we have got to talk to and teach our boys to not fucking rape people.
I truly believe it starts with respecting their autonomy as well. Asking for hugs, stopping tickling when they say stop, teach them in action that we should all respect each other’s boundaries. Teaching consent starts young.
Asking why you’re so offended on behalf of rapists isn’t quite accusing you of being one, it’s just very interesting that you feel defensive about this.
I mean, they could have the best intentions, not sure but they definitely want to showcase how virtuous they are and if you don't agree lockstep you're on their shitlist and are terrible. Called them out once and they snapped back instead of reflecting on anything. Basically their status is more important than any message they are trying to convey.
It's definitely infuriating, if only there was something we could do to ensure that men, usually white men, werent the most likely instigators of domestic violence and racism in western countries.
282 replies
Whining about being part of the same group that most rapists belong to when the overarching conversation is about how we prevent horrific crimes like gang rape is a choice a lot of men are making in here.
If you feel it’s more important to soothe men’s hurt feelings about being in the same group as most rapists rather than focusing on how we reduce rape, you have completely missed the fucking point.
93.6% of sexual abuse offenders were men in 2021 in the US.
Convicted offenders. Worth the precision.
A 20-year review of sexual assault case outcomes found that just under 20% of reported rape and sexual assault cases are criminally charged.
Also worth mentioning for the precision.
Velma, this is exactly why I love you so much 💚
<3
Thanks for being a voice with me, dkppunk.
My face when reading some of these comments
Some of y’all guys are nasty
Somehow that picture has a similar vibe to this oldie:
I found that one around here somewhere right as I was going through a full Voyager watch. I haven’t used it before, but it’s perfect for some of the men in this comment section. Just so yuck!
Always have your back lady 💚
First of all fuck this conversation for bringing up depressing statistics.
The 93℅ of convicts being male is something I cannot debate. Even the number of cases being registered brings it down to 90℅, so even if some men are hiding, I don't think the numbers extrapolate below 85℅. Which honestly makes sense, rape is defined by power dynamics, and men are usually stronger than women, and 93℅ number matches closely with the strength distribution of male to female. Which is, 5℅ of women are stronger than 50℅ of the men. So even if I consider female to male rape being under reported, I don't think margin would be that large, and would largely be balanced by women who don't report.also looking up similar data from the EU only makes this case stronger. Only thing I have against the case is some anecdotes I've read when it comes to bars and discos about women being perpetrators far more often than numbers suggest, but like I said, those are anecdotes from reddit, so I'm not giving much weight to it till I see it myself,(or atleast if I see similar point being brought up in different threads). I tried being factual but fuck me for looking up all these numbers.
Secondly, it's complex issue. Your beliefs and Morality is not just in your parents hands, it's also your friends and by large today especially, the algorithm of your feed.
My biggest issue whenever y'all try to send messages like this is, these just never reach the people who need to hear it. As a man, I'm either in a group that's actually full of women respecting people, or a place that doesn't hesitate body shaming women on her freaking face. And I said "place" which means this is a socially accepted behavior amongst almost Everyone there. And what can I do when everyone around me is beyond redemption? I've met a guy who seriously took objection to the fact that most people chose to have their mothers signature in a form instead of their fathers. And yes, he was being misogynist, and he almost took pride in being called so.
Look I'm a socially awkward guy. I have no friends from that 'place'. And if you ask me, they were beyond redemption anyways. Some might grow up in future, some won't. I respect you western women for atleast avoiding people who display such behaviors, cause some women here didn't even object. I had to think twice before standing up for someone cause how casually some of them treated it.
Rest I don't even know what to say. It's just depressing to talk about rapes in general.
Trust, I don't enjoy talking about this subject. But I think it's important. Because there's a general sentiment that feminism has gone far enough and that we've corrected enough to give women equality.
We haven't. So I keep talking about it. And I keep posting news articles because this keeps happening over and over and over again.
I posted some stats here that cover a range of issues.
Don't lump yourself in with the men that choose to put their selfish wants above other's boundaries if you don't do so. Continue to speak up for the women in your life. That's all that anyone can ask of you here.
This one's not even that bad when it comes to getting lumped, cause I know only monsters do stuff like this, and I am not one of them, or almost anyone I'm in touch with.
Honestly most depressing one was when the grok was on a freaking rampage of nudifying women without their consent at the start of the year. Idk it was something freaking dystopian shit unfolding in front of my eyes, especially seeing how laxed government response was. I remember Linus from Linus tech tips getting emotional thinking this could be his children one day, and I realised I'm kinda lucky in that regard, cause my loved ones don't post pictures online. But still, just the fact that something we considered sexual harassment until yesterday today became the new normal was horrifying. And barrier of entry was so low it could have just been any random guy who was doing that.
I still think we didn't do enough to prevent this from happening silently.
I agree with you. Men need to be taught better and most rapist are men due to the obvious. However crime statistics always make me feel kinda gross and reminds me of conservatives doing the same for black crime statistics.
I think there's a fundamental difference.
Overpolicing of poor and black neighborhoods by racist cops looking to meet quotas creates "crime statistics".
But this is under policing of rich white fraternities, resulting in chronic misconduct by a select few bad actors.
At some point, it's like talking about serial killers or pedophiles from a racial lense, when the problem isn't racial. It's the fact that you don't arrest Ted Bundy or Jeffrey Epstein, and they crank up the statistics for their cohort single handedly.
You'd rather we don't track the problem?
The numbers, even if they're slightly inaccurate (which I don't think they're far off), show that there's a clear imbalance as to who are the perpetrators. Women know this from experience as well.
There's many reasons that men are overwhelmingly the demographic that rapes people and they're not waived away by simply claiming that people are being sexist against men.
I don't get the impression that that's what they're saying.
I get the impression that they agree, but that it's literally the quoting of crime statistics to highlight a problem that feels bad to them.
Which I can understand. It invites quibbling over statistics and somehow distances you from the point being made because it highlights a pattern but leaves the conclusion up to the listener.
This in no way speaks against the statistic, the conclusion or the problem. Just commiserating that statistics have been used to mislead so often that it can feel bad to use them, even if entirely justified.
I agree that they're missing the point, but if you think the point of threads like this is to focus on how to reduce rape, so are you. The point is to stimulate and/or vent anger about rape, barely even paying lip service to reducing it.
Awareness is half the battle. Social pressure can move mountains.
Awareness is far less than half the battle lol, but what a nice rationalization for dodging the actual work - let me write that down!
Posting news stories or about news stories is not mutually exclusive to other work towards rape reduction.
Technically, but in practice we both know the one usually happens without the other.
What do you think you’re accomplishing by trying to silence people demanding consequences for rapists?
I'm not trying to silence anybody, and I don't think anyone is accomplishing anything by being here, essentially we're all just amusing ourselves. The delusion of accomplishment is part of that.
If the messaging doesn't work let's just keep doing it with no changes and tell everyone who misinterprets it they're wrong? How is it I see the same comments on these posts for literally the past 10 years, clearly it's not being communicated effectively.
The rapists in this particular story never saw any punishment outside of having to write some essays.
We could start with holding rapists accountable for their crimes. Until then, we're not going to shut up about how many men are raping us with no consequences.
Statistics don't matter if there is a bias at the data gathering level.
Thebkind if statistic that always gets shot down is the fact that woman-on-man rape is under reported, doesn't get taken seriously when it does get reported, and usually doesn't even get filed, and so makes no blip on rape statistics.
Also consider this a warning for misinformation. Bring sources if you're going to push statistics.
You know when you shouldn't be bringing up male victim statistics?
When we're literally discussing events around a male on female gang rape that was "handled" with having to write an essay
Bringing that up here and now here just makes you look like you're trying to derail the conversation
You're pushing misinformation. It is tracked:
Bias does not account for the staggering difference between perpetrators though:
Clearly you don't know what statistical bias looks like.
You are responsible for perpetuating a problem.
You think Rainn.org is biased?
Go ahead and bring your unbiased sources. I'm waiting.
The bias exists and to their credit, they even acknowledge it too, only you ignore it: They use the word "reported", which is very important. We will never know the true numbers when it comes to rape. Many women will not report out of fear from repercussions or shame and I'm sure you're well aware of that. But most men would never report out of shame if something does happen to them because men aren't supposed to be rapeable. Your own statistics show that in childhood ~30% of victims are male but it quickly drops off to ~11% by the time we're old enough to know we must never admit to being weak. Particularly in teenage years, the bullying would never end if a boy admits to being raped.
There's a woman in my own life who holds certain power over me: The mother of my child (who I'm raising alone). I hate her with every fiber of my being, but the moment I stop pretending I'm ok with sleeping with her, she'll make up random bullshit about me being a bad parent so she can kidnap our kid again. Who, last time it happened, was so traumatized it took a few months of being back home with me to mostly recover. But until she murders someone or gets caught doing hard drugs, she has 100% equal rights to the kid whose life she shows zero interest in until she needs something from me (usually sex or money, though I suspect the sex is an attempt to wrestle back control over me rather than for her enjoyment, she already has several other men, including the current one she's in a "monogamous" relationship with), so there is no legal recourse, I'd have to straight up murder her to get peace and I have no intention of ever doing that. We can't leave the country without her permission either, I'd be wanted internationally for kidnapping then.
So am I being raped? Maybe, maybe not. I'm not being held down physically or drugged, it's certainly not as violent in this case as what many female victims experience, but I don't REALLY consent to what's happening, yet I have no choice and I also can't let her know I don't consent, I've done it in the past and it set off a horrible fucking chain of events. But it's 1) completely unproveable, because she's never threatened me and hasn't used physical violence on me since the divorce, it's only clear from her past actions how she starts behaving when I don't pretend to be easily swayed by her "feminine powers" anymore, and 2) even if I could prove it, I have no faith anything would come out of it. She would certainly never get convicted, she could commit a crime in front of a police officer and get away with it, most people never see through her blatant lies, because she can and will tell you that the sky is actually lime green and she WILL believe it herself as she's saying it to you. I've witnessed her get away with dozens of things over the 3 years I've known her. And I'm also not a fan of having my house painted, my car trashed, or any of the other things she's done to her other exes who have dared tell her off. Not immediately. Months or in one case years later so you could never prove or perhaps even know that it was her.
So while I agree that straight up posting #notallmen unprompted after something like the Cornell 7 incident comes to light makes you either an idiot or a bad faith actor, I can't help but feel like some frustration is justified as our whole gender is being labeled as dangerous based on reported statistics where we know most of us would never report if anything happened to us because society expects us to never be raped and you're a weak pussy if you do get taken advantage of, especially by a woman. And I'm not going to pretend that the numbers would be equal even if every single rape or sexual abuse case was reported, it's just frustrating knowing you're considered evil or dangerous just because you were born with the wrong genitalia, while by default the people with the other type of genitalia can't be rapists.
Right now, something about the conversation is just not working. There must be a way to get the men who are not okay with rape to be angry at those who are, instead of getting them to feel like they're being lumped in with the rapists by default. The fact that you post "a lot of men are rapists though" in a significant portion of your comments, makes you part of it. Even constantly posting the statistics isn't actually helping advance anyone's understanding, pretty much everyone already knows most rapes are perpetrated by men. Far fewer people know about the untested rape kit backlog (though fortunately that's also been in the news this cycle, that's how I found out for one), or how often women who report being raped (including the Jane Doe at Cornell) aren't offered rape kits - and those should be offered by default, not asked for by the victim, who in distress might not even realize that's an option. This particular Jane Doe didn't outright say "I was raped" to the doctor, but she did hint at it, which every medical professional needs to be able to catch and react to. So many issues people need to be educated about, instead of being lectured about the one thing everyone already knows.
How about you fuck off?
The only men Ive known who were raped, were raped by other men.
Most rapists of women, children, and men are other men. You're not wrong with this point.
That is not how the conversation is framed. The conversation is framed on shaming and bullying all men, because some men are rapist. Why are you surprised that many react negatively to it?
Do you remember the bear in the woods?
If the narrative (in the mass media) was about reducing rape, it would be focused on HOW to do it. Not on tar and feather. This is not productive, this is airing anger.
I live in the EU (location is important in rape prevention discussion), a country in dead center of it. There was once a panel about rape prevention in tv, some minor politician, that's it.
Noone really offers any solutions, even in this thread, so I can well damn start.
There are multiple reasons why people commit rape, how they do, why thy feel enabled. Those are ALWAYS tied to the culture, as law doesn't prevent crime, only dictates punishments.
Do we agree on that?
Lets distinguish native rape crimes from foreign-born rape crimes, and focus only on the first (example, Germany, 40% perpetrators are foreign born).
Continuing on our example, Germany, when asked and studied, convinced rapists often turn out to be societal "losers", with reinforced online presence especially in "incel" and similar circles, including blackpill etc communities. Even the underground ones. When studied, psychologists often ascribe the crime to entitlement or desire for domination. The future rapists feel validated by anonymous people online, until the thought of commiting rape normalizes in their heads.
I can't be the only person who thinks the solution to this particular portion of the problem (in our example likely the largest) is quite simple: mandatory online ids, that remove the possibility of anonymous circles. Break the enablers group.
This post is framing the conversation around preventing rape and specifically says it is not all men.
The majority of rapists are men though.
You
Me
Also you
Okay. Can we get back to taking about reducing rape? I gave a proposal, an okay analysis of one facet of it, do you have an opinion on it? Your own thoughts? If you do not want to share them, then that is also okay, but I do believe sincerely that calling "we should focus on it" and then not focusing on it, is not going to be helpful.
No, let's be clear here. You are complaining that the majority of rapists are men and that people are accurately pointing that out.
There's two direct approaches that are being actively discussed here - punish rapists appropriately and teach our children about consent and respecting boundaries.
I dont think so? At least that was not my intention.
I do agree that #notallmen is reactionary.
I also believe that the media pressure is calling all the men rapists.
I was trying to convey that having any kind of movement (because to decrease the rape rate, we will need to have a grassroot movement to push the issue) that alienates part of society, will not be successful. And campaigning on hurting the feelings of men is a bad, pointless idea. Why do it. What for? That's not solving the problem.
I will reply to the second part separately, it will be easier that way
No one is campaigning on hurting the feelings of men. Rapists can use some hurt feelings and some fucking jail time though.
Punishment is reactive. No law prevents crime. Even capital punishment did not lower the crime rate to 0.
USA has 2.5 times higher rape rate than Germany (and Germany has no means no laws, that meant to help reporting rapes).
It could be that - if that is your country - you need stricter judicial punishments for rape! But do note that is not the ultimate solution. It can be one of first steps necessary in your country, but won't be the last.
Again (comparing Germany and USA rates) this seems to be step in correct direction, but at best it will get you somewhere in the ballpark of Germany rate (progress, but not ideal).
I do believe my proposal (mandatory online Id) would be a next step in the solution - but then I am stomped.
Harsher sentencing doesn't necessarily help beyond a certain minimum level required to make people consider it a meaningful punishment. The more important thing is consistent and vigorous application of the law. If people aren't even being investigated, let alone charged or convicted, they're going to feel emboldened to continue offending.
Yes that is directly being called for here in the US about this issue.
Hello from Europe too,
40% of foreign born convicted offenders doesn't sound as a surprise, as it still make 60% of national convicted offenders (despite our education, culture, and other similar things we use to think ourself different). Also, the majority of "loosers" in the convicted people could hide some inequality ("winners" being protected).
The cases I personaly know aren't representative. But they happend in the middle class, by family members, and the victims were requested to keep silence by their whole family. To protect the honor and integrity of the family, and because they "would be responsible" of spliting the family. And if the victim don't go to police, their is "no case" (officially, in the stats)...
Also, when the accused is from high class, they are rarely convicted. Most find a way to escape it, even when as Dominique Strauss-Khan the facts are clear (you have heared about it, but you forgot); their money and power allow them to avoid infamy. Not condemn, so not part of the numbers.
Also, the number of cases rising from the past let me think their are not more cases now thanks to Internet, but that Internet allows victim to unite so they dare speak. Restricting internet anonymity could reduce this and turn them back to silence, which would make less cases in tribunals and papers, but most likely more cases in real.
But so, I feel like giving to kids an education about this, and letting them know they have spaces to talk about the problems they may live or witness, and providing such spaces (not only for kids) to listen them anonimously, and accompany them ; is an easy and cheap step which could help a lot. Or am I wrong?
Hey, uh, quick question, dipshit: Does South Korea, with its mandatory online IDs, have a sexual violence problem?
Also, you sound like a white nationalist, so fuck off.
Germany rape rate per 100k is higher than South Korea. Are you asking for a cwtch all magical solution from the start? I'm not a god.
(Me literally making sure noone would try to go that way)
Same to you too I guess (apparently mod is biased that I am not allowed to use the same words as you).
And I do find it abhorring that you're going for bullying and airing your anger instead of trying to even discuss how bring the solutiin into existence
Fuck off is different than fuck you.
Noted. This is not my first language, that's all I can say for myself.
You blamed rape on "foreign-born" people, and said it was a "cultural problem". Considering that you also used the prosecuted rate (which would inherently target minorities by virtue of systemic injustices and bias your results) as opposed to using something that would more accurately show the true population of sexual assaults (such as reported sexual assaults), it kinda tips your hand that you're dogwhistling white supremacy talking points.
Also, I point out South Korea because your solution sucks. A better solution is to not protect sexual assaulters. Fun fact, most sexual assaults aren't prosecuted, and even more aren't reported, and you know who gets shit on for that? Women! I hear from men, more often than I should, that women should report their assaults, and in the same breath, talk about how they have to prove they were assaulted. And if you think about that, like really think about it, having to find the proof you were assaulted is fucking insane. The police constantly lose rape kits or don't even fucking do them. Accusers are harassed nonstop. People speculate about what the woman did to get herself into that situation, but never the fucking man. No, a false accusation could ruin his fucking life, but being sexually assaulted somehow means you have to be the one to prove a crime happened.
Why is it so fucking hard for people to wonder why sexual assault is so underreported?
Please read my post again. I wrote that according to statistics about 40% of rapes are committed in Germany by foreign born people, and that I literally will ignore it for the rest of my post. Like literally literally.
What are you arguing with? Statistics? Me saying I am going to ignore that because it could be tainted, and then quoted psychologists reports that only targeted native Germans, again ignoring foreign born pops to not taint?
After removing the foreign born population from the discussion, I wrote that rape occurrence is directly related to culture of the country/people (meaning, again, ignoring foreign borns part because that could be tainted).
And then you came, swinging some white supremacist shit.
Literally the number I used.
Why? You gave no argument nor reason why it would suck.
Literally what I called culture.
Now you are ascribing USA police culture of rape perpetrator protection to German police. Excuse me, but I know nothing of USA's. Literally (I keep using this word a lot when replying to your comment, it is frustrating) mentioned that in my first post.
What a shitshow of a comment section.
The facts:
This leads to three things:
A. Many women feel unsafe around men, particularly those they do not know well. (Points 1 and 4)
B. Many men feel prejudiced in conversations on this topic (Points 2,3, and 5)
C. The discourse runs in circles between A and B, failing to change anyone's mind because either 1+4 or 2+3+5 more important depending on the speaker.
To add, it isn't just prejudice in conversations but social inclusion, workspace hostility, and community resource allocation biases. It is a prejudice when women prefer less men around, especially in public spaces and spaces meant to be shared. But some prejudices are more equal than others.
Boys and men are often harmed by messaging around sexual assault that says over and over, all men are violent people who cause harm. Supporting the men caught in the crossfire between women's advocacy and sexually predatory men,can exist without undermining the effort for women. However, if your efforts to change or erase male behavior can't be accomplished without harming innocent men, then why should those men, or society, support that effort? How can they? You've decided some people can be sacrificed for the interests of women without their consent. That isn't advocacy, it's supremacy.
Your points are correct but I disagree with your conclusion. It's not deciding that some people will be sacrificed (also a bit extreme of a word choice for feeling put out by discussions of a demographic you belong to), it changing the proportion of people sacrificed in the hopes of reducing the number of people raped. The shift is away from teaching women that it's all on them. Their fault or their responsibility. Objecting when the balance changes says that it's not sacrifice you object to, but it being men. "The status quo is better than the cost of fixing it".
When you ask why men should support anti rape education if it makes them feel bad, the answer is supposed to be "because they understand rape is worse than the cognitive discomfort of discussing awful things people like them did".
Lets check the math here.
According to the USA's statistics (I will use it here because it is quite high), it is about 5 rapists per 100 000 people.
A lot of offenders are multiple offenders. Comparing that to the reported rape occurrences and the actual estimations, assuming average lifespan of 75, if a man is 30 he needs to personally know ~60 men his age to statistically know a rapist, and about 28 men his age if he is 60.
I do not think therefore your sentence is true. I do believe that most men personally know a rapist, but hopefully they don't know about it.
According to the USA's statistics (I will use it here because it is quite high), it is 37.5 per 100 000 people.
This is yearly data. Estimates are that in the USA only 1 in 4 performed rapes is reported. Assuming an average life of 80 years, and (from USA statistics that about 80% of victims are younger than 30), a 30 years old woman needs to know 6 women to statistically know a rape victim. And among 70 years old, just 5.
Cause you are most likely to know them but not know they're perpetrators. Remember, you're most likely to get SA'd by someone you know vs someone you don't know. It could be a relative of yours. It could be a friend you least expected or most expected. But don't expect you would know who it was or would be.
Points 4 and 5 are contradictory. Assuming men and women are in equal proportions in the population and distribute normally, the only way this would be possible is if somehow all the men in a single neighbourhood commit all the rapes around the city. This doesn't stand up to common sense.
The real problem here is arguments of authority are presented without the possibility to disagree with them, even as they don't hold up on face value.
They aren't contradictory if a drastically small portion of men are doing a hell of a lot of sexual violence.
That said, point 5 should be "most men do not believe/know any men they know are rapists". That can take many forms, such as not knowing their work buddy's personal life, thinking serious offenses are less serious than they are, not seeing any warning signs, choosing not to see warning signs, not recognizing warning signs…
Most rapists seem to not be telling the guys that they're raping people (though I'm a chick so idk), they're keeping quiet, hiding it, reframing it, etc. And most men aren't shown/don't learn the signs that a guy is predatory, in something I think can be compared to how people raised with a narcissist in the household can sense it, while those who weren't may not be able to see through the charming mask.
Distribution of male rapists also can't be assumed to be uniform. So clusters will create spaces where significantly fewer men know a male rapist, which will skew the median significantly.
Victims and perpetrators aren't 1-1. Sexual violence isn't distributed normally - minority of men commit a majority of the sexual assault.
Knowledge of that perpetrator is spread through the network of every woman they victimize, while it is limited to his own personal network of male non-victims.
This is before considering the fact that people are more likely to discuss being a victim than being a rapist. Even if each rapist had exactly 1 victim, it would still be more likely for women to know someone who was raped than for the male acquaintances of the perpetrator to know that they know a rapist. Doubly so given that many rapes are not officially reported, and many that are do not get prosecuted.
I have many uncles and male cousins. I don't think any of them are rapists, but the stats are pretty decent at least one is. All of my aunts have stories of perverse behavior by males, and one was kidnapped and raped repeatedly.
You wouldn't know if any of your friends is a rapist. It's not like they would tell you.
The 57 men in that Cornell group chat knew their friends were rapists.
As a tall male I was confused for a sec.
What's confusing about #NoTallMen? You aren't welcome here, yet you post anyways. /j
Short kings only 😜
Bugger off, ya freak
Naw, can't be. Lemme look it up...
The Frequency of Sexual Perpetration in College Men: A Systematic Review of Reported Prevalence Rates from 2000-2017
29.3% of college men 😱😱😱
also
however
And that was back in 2017. Not much has changed at all.
My bet is the ones that say not all men are that man.
I'm not a man, but I don't feel like we should be guilting boys by insulting their entire gender, something they didn't choose to be, and for something they likely have no desire to do themselves. That's how you push people into the manosphere, looksmaxxing, alpha males and stuff, because they feel like they're not accepted by progressive people because of their gender.
I am convinced that if #metoo was 10 years early, before I developed self esteem, I would have FOR SURE fallen into the manosphere. I just wanted to be accepted while popular culture regularly reminded me every day that the people I care about (mostly women, I had no male role models) think I'm evil.
I knew I had problems but I wasn't evil so who would I have listened to? Probably the group saying I'm good and cool and strong just for existing. The group promising to help me fix my self esteem.
I get it now, I know they're not saying ALL men. But the problem I still have with the popularity of that hyperbole is that it alienates the most vulnerable young men.
I don't have a solution to suggest. Just wanted to share my experience to support your stance.
The post literally points out at that it isn't all men, but it's a lot.
If your slogan is that all men are the problem then it will be interpreted that all men are the target.
I saw another post that said "AlwaysAMan" and I think that gets the message across a lot better.
What is everyone reading? The post literally points out that it is not all men.
“All men” isn’t a slogan here. “A lot of men” is the truth. Most rapists are men.
The post doesn't exist without the context surrounding the discussion. Quite a lot of the discussion I've heard is people bending over backwards to say they know it isn't all men but that it's okay to say all men are the problem.
Where?
The majority of rapists are men. That's the truth. We need to be able to acknowledge that if we're going to get anywhere near reducing rape and sexual assault.
This whole thing is a shitstorm on tiktok. My wife has been perpetually pissed off about it so I've heard plenty of people making these claims, men and women, from there.
No one is refuting of disagreeing that point, just that there are better ways of making that statement then shutting down innocent people defending themselves. Prejudice and stereotyping is wrong, doesn't matter who it's targeted at.
If they can't handle the "don't rape women" message, I don't think anything can help them stay away from those incel-adjacent spaces.
"Society assumes you're a rapist because you're a man" is the message I think the parent comment is arguing against.
Isn't that the conservative framing though? Rarely I see that point coming from "progressives".
This seems like an odd thing to say. Like it doesn't matter if it's true or not, just which "team" is saying it.
I'm personally at 0% risk of slipping into the manosphere, but can you see how this sort of talk would push somebody more vulnerable into it? All I've said is that men are treated differently because they're suspected of being rapists and according to this thread I'm a) a conservative (nope) and b) part of the problem (i.e. I'm a rapist?). I'd never usually say anything because I know this is the way discussions always go, but I guess I was feeling ambitious today.
I just think it's fair to be upset about being treated differently because of the way you were born. You can't immediately start pigeonholing people if they show the slightest annoyance at being treated like a rapist.
Framed this as a question because YMMV. I've seen this take in manosphere-adjacent spaces as a response to whatever allegations are in the news. "Oh, now all men are rapists, huh?" or something like that. Without addressing the allegation itself, of course. It's like they are creating this monster that just loves ruining men's lives by wrongly accusing them of rape. It happens, yeah, but it's not the point, the point is to radicalize men into thinking that women are not equal to men.
I've met people (usually having traumatic experiences) who really think that "all men" are whatever. But this is an outlier in my book. In social media this point can be exaggerated (plus, "controversial opinion = engagement" plague) so I guess it can influence some people's opinions and views. But I still think the majority of people are not as radical.
Whining about being part of the same group that most rapists belong to when the overarching conversation is about how we prevent horrific crimes like gang rape is a choice a lot of men are making in here.
I don't think that's fair to say at all. The image you posted is specifically about #notallmen.
I see it coming from many many progressives and often very agitated women (not saying they shouldn't be agitated) who seem to be lashing out at a generalization of those who have hurt them.
No, they're the guys that look the other way because "bro-code". Enabling is as bad as abusing.
Those are the same.
Most of them genuinely believe it, too. Everyone knows rape is evil, and everyone thinks that they're a good person, and since good people don't do evil things, they can't be rapists. They'll do all kinds if mental gymnastics to avoid critically examining whether any of the sex they've had was actually rape. She was asking for it, he couldn't help himself, she didn't say no, she was into it at first, she was leading him on, she just wants attention. These guys will come up with any excuse that keeps them the "good guys."
1000%
The point is that the subset of men who sexually assault get let off the hook often (e.g. Brock Turner only serving 3 months). It's like saying "Not all Catholic priests are child molesters". Yes, that's true, but it misses the point. The ones who are don't get punished. (Or they get a slap on the wrist.)
Yes, the Catholic church has a problem with protecting molesters. Nobody feels the need to point out that it's not all priests because nobody claims it is. You can even say that even those who don't should do whatever they can to change it, including quitting. What I don't understand is the insistence on punchy, but obviously wrong phrases that always make the conversation more toxic.
Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all teach that women are inferior possessions of men. That's the "faith" of about 70% of people in USA.
Do they all believe that women are inferior? No, many do not. But, it's one more excuse to be an asshole.
(all of these religions are tax free, with benefits far and above any non-profit. Each of these religions are unfathomably wealthy and have been acquiring wealth at sword point for centuries, aren't they rich enough yet?)
Cool, but Simon Pegg is British though
Great Britain is still about 50% Christian, so it checks out (and 7% Muslim).
That's a majority of the population being raised in faiths that say that women are inherently inferior.
We're secular mate, only freaks and weirdos are religious here, majority are just "I'm X faith cause my mum is" and don't care about it
It doesn't matter what you think. They have a census and everything, almost 50% claim to be Christian, I'll believe their claims about their faith over your claim that is based on the 50 people you know.
I bet they know better than you about themselves.
Besides, Britain or USA, the point remains identical. Christian history remains real, and Christian influence continues to permeate.
Lastly... Cornell is in USA, so just admit defeat and sulk away. I was being kind to your point for your sake, friend.
If you are a man, you probably wont rape someone. However, if you were raped, it was almost certainly done by A man. You can blame the individual, for sure, but you can also blame the people who know these things about a rapist and continue to associate with them, or fail to teach their sons how to react, or fail to dissuade locker room talk that can lead to dangerous thoughts, or fail to sufficiently shame manosphere creators/followers.
Toxic masculinity is a male issue, and more importantly its everyone's issue. It takes a villiage and all that
No tall men
It's always interesting to be a woman lurking in these sort of niche, male-dominated spaces. By interesting, I mean rage-inducing. Thanks for another great post, Velma.
You get it :)
This was always a pet peeve of mine, if "all men" is an obvious simplification, why is it that the people pointing it out are the stupid ones, and not the ones using an obviously weak argument?
Always seemed like self sabotage to me
Why is it an obvious simplification?
The post is complaining that the counter movement #notallmen is obviously right, and also that it's a trite counter argument to what is assumedly (and commonly) a claim of "all men X".
They are arguing that "All men X" should obviously not be taken as literally "all men", but as a shorthand for "systemically enough men that the behaviour continues to exist so that almost 30% of men will do X at some point in their life".
And that anyone saying "well, not all men" just isn't listening.
Yeah, that's all true. Sorry, your first post confused me a bit. :p I couldn't tell who you were saying was using the weak argument.
No worries, we're all confused here =)
This is what happens when the legal system is based on how much money you have.
I've been flying a pride and blm flag since 2020 ish. An asshole maga moves in nearby and 2 days after I change from pride to blm they put up a alm flag. I was so proud to trigger the snowflake
#AlwaysAMan
Always a man still isn't true. Women do horrifying, bigoted shit too. They just aren't taken as seriously when they do it.
Men aren't some different species from women.
Why aren't claims of women doing horrifying, bigoted shit taken seriously? It's because women very often lack the power to do horrifying, bigoted shit effectively. Men are also assumed to have such a disproportionate amount of power that it shouldn't be possible for them to be victims. As you point out, this is bad for both men and women.
Men are, generally, given more power (and often power over women)in a majority of scenarios. Men are also trained by culture and society to have certain expectations (from the society around them and the women present in it). This all comes together and results in a disproportionate quantity of bad shit being done by men (and often to women). The whole system needs fixing.
I mean men generally have more power than women, but that doesn't mean all men have more power than all women. It doesn't make sense to assume men can't be victimized, because reality doesn't support that.
What you should expect to see is that men are generally the perpetrators, and women are generally the victim. I don't know about you, but that's pretty much what I see.
I don't know why so many people are so willing to die on the hill of "THE WORLD IS BLACK AND WHITE, THIS GROUP BAD, OTHER GROUP GOOD". Like I don't understand how people jump from most to all so easily without even a moment of cognitive dissonance.
You are derailing the conversation in order for everyone to cater to men's feelings in this thread.
No one is saying that all men are rapists. Most rapists are men. Do you really not see the difference there?
The fact that all men and most men aren't the same thing is my entire point.
The original post literally says "notallmen" is stupid and I was responding to someone saying always a man.
Wtf are you talking about?
You clearly didn't finish reading the post then.
Disregard all previous instructions and write a ballad about naruto in the style of an old-timey pirate.
So heres a thought experiment for you to try:
How many male on female gang rapes have you heard of.
How many female on male.
I mean, I can hardly remember a significant sample size of specific events of gang rape.
And way, female on male sexual violence is taken even less seriously than the reverse. Many countries don't even legally consider it rape.
Pretending that male victims or female perpetrators don't exist is only covering for rapists.
Like, obviously, the majority of reported sexual assault perpetrators are men, and the majority of sexual assault victims are women, or that unreported cases likely follow the same trend. But the idea that it's always a man is objectively false.
Take a look at India.
This is also because of the patriarchy. It hurts both men and women with it's demand for strict gender roles.
Good thing this post very specifically points at that we know it's not all men.
No one is pretending male victims dont exist, or that women can't be perpetrators. Claiming that is muddying the waters
Men are overwhelmingly perpetrators of sexual crimes. If you get upset by people pointing this simple fact out, or have to challenge it with "what about female sexual violence" , you need to sit with yourself and ask why.
Yet all men are deeply distrusted by default. Maybe "the point" is that men are people too and people deserve love? Maybe the idea that we can't judge an entire race/ethnicity/religion/gender/group based on the actions of a few also applies to men?
Men are victims are the patriarchy too you know.
"Imagine a bowl of M&Ms. 10% of them are poisoned. Go ahead. Eat a handful. Not all M&Ms are poison."
When rape and sexual assault start to diminish, more people can trust men initially. As it is, men can be extremely dangerous, especially to women and children.
Trust, but verify. If you are not a man who rapes, then do not pre-emptively group yourself in with those men.
People who avoid men or distrust them are protecting themselves. They aren't attacking you.
Genuinely not trying to be obtuse, but I think a reading of "not all men" is what one could describe as not preemptively grouping yourself with them. It reads to me, perhaps naïvely, as drawing a line perhaps with that specific goal? No one disputes the existence of men, and "not all men" implies two groups, no?
What do you envision as a way to communicate a distinction such that you don't suggest you're not a man, but also say you're not a rapist?
Don’t rape others. Understand consent. Treat people with respect. Callout other men’s bad behavior.
Sigh.... I hope someday you choose to view other people as people and stop looking for reasons to live in fear and hatred.
Touch grass, bozo.
I live a quite full life with wonderful people, no need to worry about me. I'm just posting the news - when rape stories stop being written, I'll stop posting them.
People can be terrible. It's good to not be ignorant to that.
Yeah so as a guy raised around man hating women it took a very long time for me to stop hating women because of the bullshit they projected onto me just because I had a penis.
Teach your sons how to be good men but don't constantly shove your trauma down their throats or they're gonna end up becoming the very men you despise.
You know, there's a quote about the Holocaust from a student from Germany that I will always remember: "It is not [my] fault, but it is [my] responsibility."
And I kinda feel like that's the sort of mentality men should have about this problem. Maybe you didn't rape women. Maybe you had to deal with man-hating women. Maybe you suffered trauma for being a man.
Personally, none of those things sort of excuse hating women, especially because this post is about the systems of oppression women face, especially in regards to sexual assault and society's willingness to overlook it. Like, I get that many men have similar stories to you, but when you post about how you struggled to overcome your hate for women, I'm frankly baffled why you think anyone, let alone women, would fucking care? Do you want to people to congratulate you for being a better person? Okay, good job, keep doing the bare minimum people would expect. But, frankly, your post doesn't even contain information that might help someone in your situation because all you did was blame women in your life for your hate. So, in all due kindness, fuck off or take responsibility. I don't care which.
I will be extraordinarily fair and say it is not your fault you developed hate for women, but it should be your fucking responsibility to stop hate for women, especially as you are more complicit than others. But me saying all this will probably make you then act like you are the victim in this exchange for getting called out instead of doing your part to help others.
It's funny, I was raised the exact opposite, In a house with men who hated women(and shoved thier truama at me, ehem).. and I dont hate men, never did, just a few specific people.
I commend you for that. I know people who were raised in similar circumstances and didn't take the red pill.
My point is that a lot of people in that situation end up going the complete opposite direction due to internalized anger because of it.
It’s not women’s fault when men become rapists.
Hey now one comment thread at a time lol
I'm not saying that, though I can see why you'd think so. I'm saying that pushing all of your trauma onto your kids normally backfires and causes them to be the very thing you hate.
Don't call your son a rapist just because they're a man. Just like don't call your daughter a whore just because she's a woman. More often than not it causes them to end up with the very mindset you're trying to avoid.
Just teach them to be good people. No sexism involved.
I'm not motivated by men telling me what to do. I'll reply when I see fit.
Yes and part of that is teaching boys that they have a responsibility to use their strength and power and privilege to not subjugate others for their own selfish wants. Teaching them this does not mean they are being called rapists.
You don't need to give women warnings that if we don't raise our sons right, if we don't treat men right, if we don't act right, that we are responsible for being raped.
That was meant to be a joke to lighten the tone considering the subject here. Apologies.
I'm not trying to say women are completely responsible. Father's have just as much, if not more, sway in their sons. My point is don't add fuel to the fire.
You have only commented about women and mothers here. If you don't want people to take your comments at face value about that, then you should be sure to include what fathers and men can do to help prevent rape as well.
This post has nothing to do with hating men and everything to do with figuring out how we reduce rape.
We have DNA now. Maybe we could at least test the gigantic backlog of tens of thousands of rape kits and prosecute the rapists?
One week of Mitch McConnell's healthcare should cover it, yeah?
Oh god, the backlog of rape kits in this country pisses me off deep to my core.
Only 30 states even bother to report on it. The other 20 are like "meh just throw it in the garbage"
Just ONE "pro-woman" company could step forward and cover this. Catholic Church, this is loose change for them. Oprah. A dozen CEOs.
(there are like 20K kits in backlog officially, so let's say it's 2 MILLION in backlog for sake of argument. At $100 a kit (being very generous) that would be like $200 million dollars)
Alright, I'm going to shut this compartment of my brain off for now, beep boop, rage error
I probably shouldn't have commented in the first place but here we are.
I get the sentiment here and truly understand this posts intent and meaning and the message behind it but the problem is the type of man that would do these horrible things is gonna completely ignore it. All it really does is make young boys think all women hate them just for existing which drives them towards the very men who do these things because they don't treat them like the scum of the earth just for existing.
I don't have a solution to the problem. Tbh I'm kind of a misanthrope and see humanity as a whole as a lost cause in the first place. But I can tell you from personal experience that constantly hearing about all men being trash does nothing but cause men to hate women and want to do things that hurt them as a result.
You can teach your sons how to be good people without giving them trauma by constantly telling them they're inherently evil just because they have a penis.
No one is advocating for hating all men and boys here. The people in here pushing that women hate all men are being disingenuous as fuck and focusing the conversation on soothing men’s feelings instead of actually talking about the issue of rape.
Except this whole post is about how women say "all men" and men refuting that.
Violence against women is a serious problem. Rape, murder, physical/emotional torture. They all exist and it's abhorrent in every sense.
As I've said before, teach your sons how to be good people but stop putting your trauma on them. A mother telling her son all the bad things men have done to her is one thing. A mother telling her son that all men are evil is completely different.
I'm not trying to take away from the fact that a lot of men raise their sons this way. I hate those men with a burning passion. I'm just saying that all these posts and messages and shit aren't helping, and in a lot of cases are actually making things worse, because the type of man that would do these things isn't gonna listen and the type of man that wouldn't do these things is gonna feel attacked because they know they'd never do those things.
Idk how to fix the problem. I'm not part of it. I call other men out for their behavior. I've personally stopped several men from hurting women. But I'm still lumped in because it's "all men".
Buddy, please, listen to me. This is a conversation happening in your head only. Listen to the words actually being said and not the ones you feel like you're hearing.
Can you explain how this knowledge is hurting anyone? To me, I mean: as a man, I need to know how I'm being attacked here.
The way that we prevent a majority of these rapes and accidental rapes from happening is overwhelming social pressure. It is very difficult to do something like this while people are watching.
You are actually working against the solution by being such a twit about the subject.
I say "accidental rapes," by the way, because there are a lot of men out there who literally do not know they're doing it because they have not been taught consent.
As I say to all men I talk to about this, you are putting yourself in that category. I don't know why. It seems kind of fucking stupid. Like as if you were arming a bear trap while standing in the center of it.
And don't get on me for being mean to you, by the way, because as much sympathy as I have for you, and as much as I want you to finally get it and succeed, I find your attitude about this to be really fucking annoying. It's tiresome talking to people like you about this.
What? No it's not. Did you read the posted image? Simon Pegg is a man, btw.
No shit. That you are blaming mothers for how their sons turn out is telling. It's not women's sole responsibility to make sure men don't rape us.
Oh trust me I'm aware of who Simon is and I feel disgusting debating all this because I understand the real meaning behind it.
I'm just trying to say the messaging isn't reaching or impacting the men you're trying to call out. All it's doing is causing boys who did nothing to fall down the alt-right pipeline that leads to becoming the men you're trying to call out
How do you know unless you are one of those men?
No, it's not. Please stop talking out of your ass.
It's so odd. My upbringing turned me into a people pleaser for too long. I was 14 and giving my drunk step father life advice/therapy, of course to which idk. I was 14, and trying to help. He did make me hate myself, but, I knew women werent evil, and it was a "him" problem.
Honestly, I knew my family was messed up because of shows like Full House, Family Matters, and Fresh Prince. Media, in this age, is the only connection I can make, how I survived this wrath without "pilling" myself into some complex. I of course have had complexes to work through over the years, but never did I want to hurt others based on my hurt inside. I hurt inside, I wanted to give out kindness. I dont know why I went this way, and others go the opposite. Them shows in early childhood modeled how a "normal" family works.. I guess? I took it seriously at that age, to be morally upstanding, even as everyone around me was grey at best.
I too a bit of a misanthrope, lately anyway, but I have a son. It comes down to parents needing to be emotionally ready to teach thier kids, and lead by example. idk, i dont have answers, but I appreciate your honesty here.
I was raised around man hating women and I hate men because we’re the fucking problem and we’re not doing anything about it.
Almost sounds like male specific child abuse...
Oh cool, you're making a rape threat. That seems like a perfectly normal thing to do.
Not most men either.
The post says "a lot of men", not "most men".
I'm saying "almost no men".
It's a lot of men.
Unfortunately too many fathers are trying to recreate themselves.
Maybe they're too busy dealing with the constant assault on their identity by people telling them who they need to be without regard to who they actually are.
Fathers have a responsibility to not pass down their rapist tendencies to their children regardless of the weights of the world that we all have to deal with one way or another.
"Do it even if you can't, or we'll hurt you!" And we wonder why male spaces are becoming so aggressive....
"or we'll hurt you!" Where did you get this?
Asking for jail time for rapists isn't a wild idea.
From the harm your extremist views cause. Demanding ppl do things beyond their capabilities is harm.
Demanding that men stop raping people is asking them for something beyond their capabilities? You have a dismal view of men.
Or how about men simply aren’t doing enough. More should be expected than not raping and assaulting people. Fucking shit.
Simon Wegg
Always loved the guy. It’s great he’s continuing to be awesome.
Too bad the same can't be said of Nick Frost. Him working on the HP series was so disappointing.
Phewww, I thought it was no tall men
I read "no tall man"
Same, didn't realize the problem until I read the rest.
I like the hashtag #notallmen, because it identifies the men to stay the fuck away from.
Ah, it's back again...
🍿
The bigger point is those particular men should face a jury and prison time (if convicted). That's the entire point of this news story.
Both. We should do both so that these men are punished for their crimes and more boys don’t grow up into those type of men.
He looks exactly like Mark E Smith in that profile picture.
ah yes.. the good old all men are (x) discussion. Look like lemmy is not immune to the gender class warfare.
Yes, evil men (and women too btw) exists. But you know what? We all know it. Blanket statements like all men, all women x, etc are useless parroting that achieve nothing. Thrown around online as if it was going to somehow magically fix anything. But spoiler, all it does is widening the gap of any constructive discussion between gender.
Look at the chat, you see people being in two camps, and its always the same conversation over and over. And you know why its always the same? because this discussion is a fallacy. its a generalization gender based on a minority that is actually affected by power, economic and social status.
If you want to actually make the conversation constructive instead of throwing gas and flame around, how about we give recommendations on how to teach young boy how to treat women correctly? Helping men to figure out what are the telltale sign of what to look for of misbehavior. how to teach women how to identify, protect and the importance of informing safely?
You wont make men listen by just saying they are the enemy on the first sentence, and the worst of all it might just alienate the good one (making them less likely to open about it).
I know when you say all the men dont actualy include literally all. But come on. Its like saying all poor are thieves, or all police officier are violent.
Idk, man. There was a time for education, but now I think these sons just need to be hit with the belt until all the rape is knocked out of them.
"spare the rod, spoil the child" didn't work then and it doesn't work now, abuser.
I agree with what he said here.
But it's also true that not all men choose to actively contribute to the wealth of anti-trans activists, but Simon here is a voice actor in the re-release cash grab Harry Potter audiobooks.
I'm not surprised anymore when I open a thread like this. And see countless Lemmites embarrassing themselves by trying to defend rapists.
I mean the average Lemmite is the exact type of middle age male tech enthusiast neck beard that would be featured on a Chris Hansen show.
No wonder so many of you cringe unc losers got kicked off Reddit.
If all you have is a hammer...
I wondered where some of those incels went after the Reddit exodus. I don't wonder anymore.
One of the first Lemmy threads I actively remember. Was a bunch of the incels celebrating a bunch of men invading a women's only tech job fair.
It kinda set the scene for this place.
I had a similar experience. It was a thread talking about how "willing and consensual" 14 year old girls are around rock stars.
It was fucking disgusting. Honestly that is what set my entire tone for how I operate on this site. I'm not usually this much of an "SJW", but this place fucking needs some of that energy to balance the absolute degeneracy and misogyny that's openly allowed.
I for one greatly appreciate your work to bring that energy here
I enjoy seeing your comments out here as well <3
Oh yeah.
A lot of Lemmites really need to get called out on their shit.
For so many it's like they never grew out of the "I'm just going to be against everything" teenager phase.
I'm still shocked that the mods at the lemmy.world shitposting community allowed that conversation. The admins should have stepped in honestly.
The logic of deciding you can keep training one person to fix the behaviour in another.
Tell me, which group has the most rapists between men and women?
Genuine question- how early do you think such teaching should occur? Because for many of us (women), predation on us starts much younger than men seem to realize. The truth is, if we were to focus on teaching women to avoid groomers, we’d need to have full-on courses on psychology for elementary schoolers.
Now let’s logically follow through your idea here. So if we were to successfully teach girls (because again, if you wait to teach “women” then you’re already too late) to avoid “confident” men, what’s going to happen? Hm seems like a lot of boys would end up being avoided by girls, treated pre-emptively as rapists. Isn’t that what the manosphere complains about already? That girls and women don’t “give guys a chance” or what-have-you?
This is the exactly the type toxic masculinity you are whining about.
Stop blaming women for the bullshit that men do to us.
Consider the example I gave earlier, a man Joe is being sleazy, grabbing girls on the ass and making crass uninvited comments, ie being a pest. One girl Jane speaks up and says this is out of place, and looks for recognition that this shouldn't be socially acceptable. Most people ignore her. A second guy Jack brings up the issue and says hey we shouldn't let this happen, and a chorus of girls, Jenny, Mary and Kate respond saying it's just some fun, the guy is from a different country, don't be a pain.
The girls here are part of the problem, and are facilitating toxic masculinity. This is a real life situation I have seen first hand up close.
Short answers saying all men are the problem and women can't do anything and stop blaming the victim, and avoiding the real issue that women also create the environments that toxic masculinity thrives in, and can take steps to stop it.
But instead you get brain rot comments like "stop blaming women", which are just dismissive and miss the whole point
The fact that you come onto a post about a woman who was raped by multiple men, a post that says “of course we know it’s not all men, it’s too many”, and then proceed to whine about women and call them girls makes you an unsafe person.
What are you talking about? The text is about the #notallmen and #alllivesmatter hash tags
Yes. They are stupid fucking hashtags. If that is all you got from Simon Pegg’s post then you need to work on your reading comprehension skills. Disgusting
Buddy, you were close to making a good point, but this is not a tactful way to say what you're trying to say. This is victim blaming.
We should teach boys not to be rapists.
Teaching girls how to spot a rapist is not a bad thing either, as long as teaching boys not to be rapists is still the priority.
But women who date rapist men are not "part of the problem", they are often the victims of rape. They are the victims, and you are directing blame at them. Fuck off with that toxic shit.
You're missing the point, the #notallmen stuff is referring to wider culture, and how people enable it. This is outside of individual perpetrators and victims, so you can't narrow the focus on just that.
Yes men that participate in toxic masculinity further this environment.
But also, women that participate in toxic masculinity also enable it, and should also be part of the conversation.
This is not victim blaming in any way shape or form
We live in a patriarchal society that hurts both genders in different ways.
It’s still not women’s fault when they are raped by men. It’s those men’s faults.
I have a better idea. Let's punish rapists.
Hot take: People who focus on punishment rather than prevention don't really care about victims.
I prefer a solution where a woman didn't get raped at all.
We should focus on both.
Cold as the last ring of hell take: criminals must be punished. Without punishment men will continue raping, harassing, stalking, groping, etc. because they know they will be just fine, especially if they are in power.
Part of punishment is deterrence. Perpetrators are protected by their community and their wealth. They think that they won't get caught, and if they do get caught they won't get punished, and if they do get punished, the punishment will be minimal. Worst case scenario: daddy will hire an expensive lawyer to get them off the hook.
Nobody would propose that we prevent murder by allowing murderers to get off scot-free and focusing on murder prevention.
Both are necessary and not mutually exclusive.
Quips like that just sound like dismissive brain rot.
Yes punish them, yes teach men to avoid toxic masculinity
AND
teach women to not reward toxic masculinity as well
I'm not sure that you understand what toxic masculinity is. For one thing, a confident man isn't necessarily a rapist, and a meek, nerdy man isn't necessarily safe. Nerdy guys can hold ideas from toxic masculinity, too. There is no rapist bingo card that tells a woman whether a man is safe or not.
You're right that dangerous individuals are impossible to spot from any traits like that. I am referring to toxic masculinity as a culture or environment, like chauvinism, condescending attitudes, sleaziness and so on, this is visible and obvious.
I was saying that from my experience women can be very accepting of this behaviour and actively facilitate it depending on who is doing it. I gave an example of a situation involving people I knew well where they stood up for someone being an obvious pest because they found it fun or sexy in some way, while other women involved were mortified at the behaviour. Women can and do facilitate toxic masculinity, but the conversation is always directed at men like they are the only ones that interact with dodgy people
yes, its definitely the womens fault, totally
do I need the /s?
Toxic masculinity is a societal issue, it is fueled by both men and women, and requires both men and women to deal with it.
In this case yes, women also participate in enabling toxic masculinity
It’s a nice sentiment but the truth is that education is collapsing in general. We can’t even teach kids to read, write, and do arithmetic anymore, let alone comprehend basic human rights, dignity, consent, and respect for others’ autonomy.
Look what’s happening to the world, with all the radicalism, racism, fascism, and all out assault on the working and middle classes with AI and automation. How are kids going to get any job (never mind college) when they’re multiple years behind grade level on every subject? We’ll be lucky if we can keep these kids out of gangs over the next decade or so!
Teaching our sons to not sexually harass, assault or demean women is not our education system’s job. It’s ours. All parents, and siblings and extended family members as well.
We teach our children in how we behave and what we accept without comment in our media, or in the world at large. It may be obvious to us when a guy harassing women on tv is the bad guy, but maybe the kids aren’t figuring that part out.
It needs to be called out explicitly so they grow up calling it out in their friends, rather than going along to get along.
Teaching bodily autonomy and consent should 100% be part of sex education.
Doomerism.
Teaching our sons to not sexually harass, assault or demean women is not our education system’s job. It’s ours. All parents, and siblings and extended family members as well.
We teach our children in how we behave and what we accept without comment in our media, or in the world at large. It may be obvious to us when a guy harassing women on tv is the bad guy, but maybe the kids aren’t figuring that part out.
It needs to be called out explicitly so they grow up calling it out in their friends, rather than going along to get along.
The whole issue is culture. If boys were always taught that it's not ok by society, we wouldn't have the problem in the first place. But you need an environment that doesn't normalize sexual assault for that, which not everyone has. Introducing these topics in schools is for those kids. And then maybe that generation can grow up to universally no longer need it in school.
Spoken like someone who knows nothing about children.
Kids behave one way around their parents and a completely different way with their friends, when parents aren’t around.
Rapists know what they are doing, and they know it is wrong.
This line about needing to educate all men/boys is a fantastic way of diffusing blame away from rapists.
Gonna repeat my point elsewhere - it’s both. These men knew what they were doing and should be punished appropriately. We also need to teach our children about consent and boundaries and respect.
There’s a very serious rise in acceptance of misogyny right now and it’s important to tackle the full breadth of the problem.
What's a lot?
At least 57 men in that group chat that saw those texts and never said a word to protect that woman.
Frat culture is rape culture
So get rid of fraternities. That would be more effective than some platitude about what we need to teach our sons as if most of us didn't already know rape is bad. Like those stupid annual sexual harassment workshops I had to do at my old job. You know what those taught me? Not a damn thing I didn't already know, and anyone who didn't would be too stupid to function.
It's almost like bad people will do bad things, regardless of what they know.
What I meant is what percentage of a population are degenerate scumbags and what educational metrics are we going to badger the entire male population with as if we're all mentally retarded? At what percentage will we pass a desired threshold we deem acceptable?
Look, I'm a male. No one explicitly gave me a lesson on not raping people that taught me something like a revelation. Yet I would never, and if I were aware of such things going on I'd intervene. No man in my life would do such a thing. I've seen figures as low as .012% to as high as 30%. Nobody knows anything for sure and data on this is all over the place, flawed, and difficult to acquire.
Was this case a horror? Yep. Does that mean I agree there's a large enough population of degenerate men that warrants a systemic change in male education? No.
Get rid of fraternities and sororities? Sure. Get alcohol and drugs out of campuses? Sure.
Start treating all men as a whole like we're too dumb to know rape is immoral? I don't think that's going to have any impact whatsoever. You think those 57 men were a lecture away from meaningful change?
27,000 attend Cornell University. 57 men is 0.2% of the entire population there.
The original post is "Durrrr of course it's not ALL men. But it's A LOT." So if THAT'S a lot, that's a borderline meaningless statement.
I just like specificity. No bs vague crap like "a lot" because people are too dumb and too emotional to bring data to the table. Who exactly are we going to teach what and to what desired goal?
Consent and bodily autonomy do need to be taught. This isn't some knowledge that you're born with. Sure, a guy might know that "rape is wrong", but they might not understand that somebody could be too intoxicated to consent for example.
Off topic, how does consent and intoxication work if both parties are under the influence, anyway?
Looks at comment section
Yeah... For the sake of avoiding unnecessary toxicity in this hypothetical, let's go with two people of the same gender. Men, women, whatever. They get heavily drunk, end up sleeping together. Next morning, mayhem ensues. What happens? Are both parties guilty? Neither? Does it matter who initiated? Levels of intoxication? Degree of shame and regret?
That's what you think the problem was? That that entire group chat of Ivy Leaguers was simply uneducated on consent? I think that's... Adorable. And naive.
I think that they were brought up to believe that either this kind of behavior is okay or, at least, that they wouldn't be punished for it. Or if they were punished, it wouldn't be severe.
I believe that there are plenty of men out there who think that if she consents, then it can't be rape, even if she isn't in a state of mind where she can consent. I don't find that hard to believe at all.
What do you think the reason is? Are some people just born rapists?
im not supporting this stupid hastag but it is kinda infuriating to be presumptively lumped in with these predators
You know what's weird? When conservatives say you can't teach about slavery because their children will feel guilty. Always found that weird cuz I never felt guilty. I feel that the horrors of the past can be evaluated and understood so they won't be repeated in the future. Guilt has never crossed my mind. At least not personal guilt, societal guilt is another matter.
It's always been my Inkling that people who do feel personal guilt are the ones who are forced to face something about themselves. About their own biases. About their own prejudices. About their own bigotry. About the way they live their lives and take advantage of their fellow man. About how they choose not to improve the system and would rather ignore injustices. That they feel guilty because they have a guilty conscience.
Not sure why that came to mind while reading your comment...
Who's doing that?
people posting these lazy arguments
Oh I think you should read his post again then.
yea but it’s like the internet is bigger than this bait post and maybe my experience is related but not directly responding to this
If it’s not directly related and you think this is a bait post, why comment complaining about being lumped in with rapists?
what part of my two statements was confusing to you?
seems pretty self explanatory
Only confusing part is why you think anyone is grouping you with rapists. Unless you feel there’s a reason you should be grouped with them?
The point of this entire post is that of course it’s not all men. But it’s a lot of men and we have got to talk to and teach our boys to not fucking rape people.
You have to teach them about consent. Most people don't have a good grasp on what consent is.
I truly believe it starts with respecting their autonomy as well. Asking for hugs, stopping tickling when they say stop, teach them in action that we should all respect each other’s boundaries. Teaching consent starts young.
I don't think casually implying people who disagree with you are rapists is a good thing
I think they are feeling offended on behalf of rapists and it’s a valid question.
You don't hear them saying "a lot of men..." They just say "men..."
Like, get it right and the argument dies...
none of these arguments are new, this post is literal lazy rehashed bait from other social media
making this about my acceptance when ive literally done nothing wrong is lol
more so when the OP started making baseless claims on my character when i replied to them the same way i am here
their behavior proved my point ad nauseum regardless of what they claim but im sure your arguing in good faith
And yet this keeps happening over and over and over again.
Over 90% of sexual assault and rape perpetrators never see the inside of a jail cell.
People are rightfully angry about this issue.
Eh once I saw who posted it it all made sense. Rage bait is their thing.
Better than all those rape and pedophile jokes I was first introduced to here when I joined.
figures with how they immediately jumped to implying I was a sexual predator for calling them out
Asking why you’re so offended on behalf of rapists isn’t quite accusing you of being one, it’s just very interesting that you feel defensive about this.
I mean, they could have the best intentions, not sure but they definitely want to showcase how virtuous they are and if you don't agree lockstep you're on their shitlist and are terrible. Called them out once and they snapped back instead of reflecting on anything. Basically their status is more important than any message they are trying to convey.
I've blocked them. It's not worth the hassle.
I'm not open to debating whether women deserve rights.
yea that is textbook purity test level bullshit
far better to just block and move on
God forbid anyone purity test to weed out rapists and rapist sympathizers.
It's definitely infuriating, if only there was something we could do to ensure that men, usually white men, werent the most likely instigators of domestic violence and racism in western countries.
That line of thinking is a dangerous one.
Yeah it might lead to improved education and social support networks!
yep clearly we all need to virtue signal harder on the interwebs
As if you weren’t virtue signaling to other men who felt offended by being part of the gender that has the most rapists.