Spyke

Syndicated from the fediverse. Read and engage on the original instance.

View original on sopuli.xyz

172 replies

lemmy.world

Fun little triangle there between Norway, Sweden and Denmark.

108
lemmy.zip

Its funny cause then when youre talking about estonia youre suddenly buddies with finland again cause "estonia is basically eastern europe"

5
lemmy.world

Finnish and Estonian languages are closely related. Unlike Finnish and other Nordic languages.

2
lemmy.zip

Yup, i liv in sweden and im hungarian so i know my stuff with uralic languages. I think its mainly about estonia not being on the peninsula, but neither is denmark. The absolute most northern part of denmark is about as north as the mosy southern part of estonia and also estonia is seperate from latvia and lithuania as those are balto-slavic while estonia is uralic as mentioned previously which puts it with finnish and sami in northern europe. Estonia is also very modern and has a well oiled welfare system(at least from the outside, would gladly hear the opinion of an estonian) so all of these make estonia feel pretty nordic.

1

Afaik from Helsinki to Tallinn it's like thirty minutes on a ferry, so even tourists tend to visit the latter together with the former. (Which, I now realize, I failed to think of when sitting in Helsinki not knowing what else to do.)

3

I like looking at these kinds of maps and finding the stable spots.

Norway -> Denmark -> Sweden -> Norway is one.

There's also Switzerland -> France -> Switzerland.

The UK escapes being part of one of those cycles by choosing a country that's off the map as their escape.

26
Alleroreply
lemmy.today

The only thing better than a Nordic country is another Nordic country

9
hub.azkware.net

This makes me wonder how does the graph diagram wind up looking like. Most nodes seem to end in a Germany-Switzerland-France loop

46
hub.azkware.net

And then there's the edge case of England going literally outside of the continent, with Australia

42
WhoIzDisIzreply
lemmy.today

The other side of the world: for when you really need to get as far away from it all as you can.

28
eleijeepreply
piefed.social

They took away our right to live in Europe. I imagine things would be very different for British 18-34 year olds had that not happened.

14

I'm not sure that's true, even when we were in the EU more Britons moved to Australia.

1
feddit.nl

That's because Brits would rather move to the literal other side of the globe where everything wants to kill you than learn a second language.

21
hub.azkware.net

That makes a lot of sense - but if that were all there was to it, wouldn't most of the emigration go to the fellow Commonwealth member, Canada?

1

Oddly enough, so is Kazakhstan! By most definitions of the Asia-Europe border, Kazakhstan has a chunk on the European side that's actually still bigger than most European countries

18
mercreply
sh.itjust.works

Some countries like Turkey are part of both Europe and Asia on technicalities. They straddle the border so they get to be part of both.

Then there's Russia, where the population is mostly in Europe, but the land is mostly in Asia.

9
Skuareply
kbin.earth

The European part of Turkiye is still about twelve million people as well, it's not like Russia but it is still a pretty substantial number of people. It'd be the 12th-most populous country in Europe if it was independent

9
mercreply
sh.itjust.works

It's not as out of balance as Russia though. European Russia accounts for about 15% of Europe's entire population. It's a huge area, a lot of which is rural, but its population density of 27/km^2 is almost 10x as high as the population density of Siberia at 2.8/km^2. Siberia is 13.1 million km^2, European Russia is just under 4 million km^2.

Siberia is normally thought of as a snowy wasteland, but it also includes Russia's entire Pacific coast, including Vladivostok where in the summer the average highs through July, August and September are all above 20C. That's warmer than Edinburgh. Its winters are colder, but they're not much colder than Moscow.

9

i feel there's a big difference in how the parts of the countries culturally relate to each other, too.
Like i'm not aware of any real difficulty getting between european and asian Turkey, whereas with russia it's 1) a massive distance, 2) there's a big fuckoff mountain chain in the way, and 3) the fuck are you going to do in siberia?

2

Most of it is in Asia, but the part in Europe has most (75%+) of the actual people. Partly colonial population dynamics at work, partly the rest of it being Siberia.

9

They do like to make themselves at home in other people's homes. Wouldn't be such a problem if so many of them weren't such horrible cunts.

1
julianwgsreply
discuss.tchncs.de

Most popular coloring is deceiving: It could mean 90% emigrate to that country or 10% do. Also this map totally neglects how many stay in that country.

To visualize the data completely (not on a map unfortunately) one could choose a chord diagram.

3

It's deceiving in multiple ways. Like of course more Romanians emigrate to Germany than to Belgium or Luxembourg, Germany is many times larger. They should add the to-country base population and/or surface to the equation.

2

sorry to be nitpicky, but it's only a 2-cycle, switzerland and france. but most of the countries get there via germany.

it would be interesting to look at the induced directed acyclic graph of the original graph's connected components.

3

It just ends in a France Switzerland loop. I think you're mistaking Austria for Switzerland.

2
lemmy.world

Fuck Germany. I'm German. Honestly don't go there if you have better choices. Not because I don't want you here, you're more than welcome. Because you'll get milked. Germany is impoverishing your country with all sorts of tricks. Look back at the Euro crisis and what we did with Greece. Look at their massive export surplus which basically means we're exporting deindustrialiuation to you. Look at what we did with the former GDR. Fuck Germany and their capitalist class.

41
pamparanareply
lemmy.world

Fuck Germany. I’m German. Honestly don’t go there if you have better choices. Not because I don’t want you here, you’re more than welcome. Because you’ll get milked. Germany is impoverishing your country with all sorts of tricks. Look back at the Euro crisis and what we did with Greece. Look at their massive export surplus which basically means we’re exporting deindustrialiuation to you. Look at what we did with the former GDR. Fuck Germany and their capitalist class.

I agree. Merz is basically a total personification of this. All he has achieved in his time is to make the far-right popular again. I hate that guy!

17
kazernielreply
piefed.world

Fuck Germany and their capitalist class.

Yeah, under Orbán Hungary became an assembly service for German carmakers, who then wielded (probably still do) way too much economic influence over the country.

7

True that. We didn't have an actual left-wing government since 1989, even the supposed "left-wing" were actually neoliberals pandering to international corporations.

4
lemmy.dbzer0.com

i'm seeing three dominant patterns: the aussie funnel, the nordic maelstrom and the franco-swiss oscillator.

39
WhoIzDisIzreply
lemmy.today

A bit too popular, as all the culture clash & other associated problems are giving right-wing extremists ammunition for their bullshit. At least so it seems to this distant American who lived there for several years decades ago.

Edit: sorry for my uninformed guess. I honestly have only very loosely paid attention to what's going on over there as there's more than enough BS at home drawing my attention. I just hate to hear of my favorite childhood place having similar problems.

-14
feddit.org

IME, people from slavic countries aren't really responsible for most of the culture clashes. Far-righters are mostly complaining about muslims and black africans, i.e. groups that are much more visible and far more culturally different.

Also, I'm not a fan of appeasement. IMO few would care about the far right if people didn't have to deal with more tangible issues like absurd real estate prices, declining quality of social security systems + healthcare and the national government's brazen corruption. Plus, massive online propaganda.

27
Aqariusreply
lemmy.world

Oh, they hate Slavs too, they just hate muslims more. If they were to somehow get rid of the migrants they'd find the time for slav-bashing, believe me.

14

That argument means that nothing you do will make the farrighters disappear, other than legal and possibly violent suppression. I do think there's some truth to that, but the fact that the farrighters aren't even complaining (much) about slavs immediately invalidates the other commenter's argument.

0

Good point. I'm only loosely aware of what's going on over there, and honestly haven't really put much thought into it. I just hate to see yet another piece of cherished childhood memories going down the tubes.

3
5715reply
feddit.org

No, it is the inaction of politicians in general that is giving those people ammunition (figuratively and literally).

7

The regions where the far right is most popular are also the regions with the least immigrants.

6
lemmy.world

Lol the Swiss want to be French and the French want to be Swiss.

23
ooli3reply
sopuli.xyz

I suppose young french, would like to have better salary... young swiss just want to spend their money on good food, for once

17
wizzorreply
sopuli.xyz

I have not tried swiss food, but oof. Still, I have been to only two places which might be close to beating france in terms of average quality of food.

3
Sylvartasreply
lemmy.dbzer0.com

As a French, I have to say that their way of doing raclette is more expensive than ours but also tastes even better.

4
wizzorreply
sopuli.xyz

What's the key difference? Can I try it at home?

4
Sylvartasreply
lemmy.dbzer0.com

The main difference is that they melt the cheese right off the wheel and they usually pair it with "grenaille" potatoes (basically a variety that's really small, so they are kind of roasted when cooked)

You can try it at home but you need specialized equipment to melt cheese wheel chunks, over here you can loan them from some cheese shops, it looks like this:

When eating it in a restaurant they will usually do that in the kitchen and just bring the partly melted chunk at the table and scrape the melted cheese into your platter though.
To be honest I'm not sure that melting the cheese directly from the wheel changes the taste, as long as you've got good cheese, but it looks glorious, and looks are actually a big part of the culinary experience so I think it still plays a part.

Also there's kind of a dispute over whether that process actually comes from Switzerland or not IIRC, but it is more widespread there nowadays

9
wizzorreply
sopuli.xyz

Ohh, I don't think I will buy the wheel holder thing, or a wheel of cheese for that matter, but I think I'll try making that myself the simple way.

Thanks for taking the time to type that out, it was intriguing.

2

They actually sell Raclette appliances in German-speaking countries. They’re little square frying pans with a little grill you put them under. Raclette is sold pre-sliced for them. It’s not as fun as a big block of molten cheese but it’s a nice communal meal like a hotpot.

1
Noodle07reply
lemmy.world

Yeah the swiss mostly want to stay swiss but a lot of people work at the french/swiss border

8

That's a problem with this map, it only shows the most popular destination, not how popular that destination is or how many people actually leave.

10

I mean this is for the few that want to leave. How likely is it for someone to put "Wants to move to their own country" in a survey?

1
piefed.ca

Russians to Kazakhstan? Is this voluntary emigration?

18
huquadreply
lemmy.ml

It's because they're the number one exporter of potassium

23

I would guess it was very different before the war started, but I can't find a good source nor for this, neither for pre-2022 stats. Now there are at least some companies that moved to Kazakhstan because it was a relatively easy move

2

I appreciate that Scandinavia doesn't show a clear preference except for staying in Scandinavia

15

Most well educated young adults who emigrate do so for better wages. Shocker.

13
sopuli.xyz

I live in Finland and we're looking to moving into Sweden or Norway.. It's rough here. Everything is expensive, can't get or afford healthcare, no jobs.. We just want a little house and some simple jobs to barely sustain or little family, and to be able to go to the doctor if sick. Not possible in Finland at the moment or in the near future.

12

It used to be nice, it's still nice if you're dying. The big problem is getting there as some data suggests Finland now has by far the longest wait times to see a doctor in Europe. Current government implemented austerity measures combined with economic difficulties since the 90s recession that screwed us over.

10
ximtorreply
lemmy.zip

Don't expect it to be terribly different in Norway. If you are dying and/or need emergency care it is probably ok/good, but just your average healthcare is annoying at best and you have to beg for any kind of specialist treatment.

4
Swedneckreply
discuss.tchncs.de

well don't go to sweden expecting better healthcare, the previous right wing government has been very busy ruining everything with privatization.

5
Lantsureply
sopuli.xyz

It might still be better compared to not getting any.. It's not like we need help every week and so on. I got lots of family in Northern Sweden, and they all just say it's all good and they get easily what they need and even can go to specialists fast. (Yes, on public side.)

5
Swedneckreply
discuss.tchncs.de

not sure you want to use northern sweden as a good example, considering how there have been news articles about people having to drive for hours to give birth in a hospital because their local one closed..

2

I live in Northern Finland and the situation is the same or even worse here. Anything is an improvenement. I'm, we're, not looking for perfection, just something livable.

5

They have and it sucks but we still have decent health care. It's just that the overhead is increasingly siphoned off to some tax haven.

5
lemmy.world

Didn't really expect people wanting to migrate into Poland.

11
sh.itjust.works

Hasn't Poland doing very well over the last few years? So well, that in fact, here in germany more Poles are going back to Poland than new Poles are coming to germany lol. All because in germany the rents are high, and even more importantly, your net pay sucks since you gotta pay a lot for social security, and those social security costs that get deducted from your pay keep rising, leaving you with an ever smaller net pay.

16
Enkrodreply
feddit.org

No no, it's honestly the most logical choice for people from Belarus. Similar culture, many already speak the language, Poland is rich in comparison to Belarus and everything is a beacon of freedom when compared to Europes last dictatorship.

12

I know plenty of young Finns that left to Poland in hopes of better life and they're living the dream there.. Yeah, wages are smaller, but so are living costs and all that too.

4

Into the the largest and richest economy in the region (Eastern Europe)? Shocker, amirite?

5
Vladoreply
feddit.org

That’s Slovakia. Slovenia is the one next to Italy without any flag. The color doesn’t match any other country.

6

Least surprised - Turkey. I grew up there, oddly common to have a religious uncle living in Germany.

Most surprised - Russia. Kazakhstan??

9

Brexit wasn't good enough I see, they want to move the whole country to the mid-atlantic

3
lemmy.world

Just love how Scandinavia is just a circle. XD

Edit: or, I guess, a triangle.

7
petersrreply
lemmy.world

Please let me stay in the illusion a few more moments.

10
sh.itjust.works

People moving to germany thinking wages are great, until they realize their net pay is like only half of their gross pay. Add to that insane rents, and then everything doesn't look so rosy anymore.

4
ooli3reply
sopuli.xyz

I was told germany got the better protected price rent policy in all europe

8
Miaoureply

I don't know about that, but the actual enforcement is anyway more important than whatever the law is on paper

2
Miaoureply

You think taxes and rent elsewhere are much lower, if lower at all? My real net here is more than twice what I'd make in France

6
piefed.ca

This is why they call Aussies, crazy sunny Brits.

4

My wife has a friend who is a German-born Swiss resident and yeah this map checks out.

3
lemmy.zip

Greece and Albania are 100% accurate! Also Albanians, their second choice is Germany too. edit: why no one wants to go to Italy? like the go for vocations etc, but they don;t want to live there? weird.

3

Italy might be nice to live in if you're financially independent and don't need to work, but aren't they kind of famous for having a terrible economy for the last 50 years or so? I've also read it has an increasing number of people living with their families into their 30s, not by choice, but because they can't afford to live on their own with the current jobs available to them. With factors like that, plus their increasingly xenophobic government, it doesn't surprise me that people who have other options will prioritize them, rather than moving to Italy.

6
lemmy.world

Germans want to be anywhere but Germany lol

Edit: we’re illiterate- everyone wants to be Germans lol

2

Every country wants to be anywhere else but that country. It's a map of emigration destinations ...

15
13igtymereply
startrek.website

If you're not on reddit, how do you know it's a repost from reddit?

7
lemmy.world

imma tryna get my self off of it buddy. would have to scarper from here if it turns that way.

1

Use an extension to mass delete your history and then delete your account. If you do that, you'll find it pretty easy to quit.

4

then dont do reddit repost, WetHedgeHog! looking forward seeing your posts here o/

5
sh.itjust.works

As you can see. The Dutch stay in "dutch-land" :-)

Because Holland is the best. Nobody wants to leave!

1
Hoimoreply
ani.social

It says Spain, but I won't blame you for reading this confusing map wrong. (Also, no mention of how many people actually go to Spain.)

1
Clutterreply
sh.itjust.works

I don't understand? I do not see my dutch flag on any other country. So logic tells me we apparently never leave ;-)

1
Hoimoreply
ani.social

No see, that's why the map is confusing. The flag shows for each country where most people from that country emigrate to. So people from the Netherlands emigrate to Spain, people from Spain emigrate to Germany and people from Germany emigrate to Switzerland.

3

Aaaaah..... So actually... No one wants to be in The Netherlands?

Now I'm sad. Educated... But sad...

1
abc
suppo.fi

Finns racing for that sweet flat tax of Estonia (but also half the average net salary so hmm).

1
abcreply

Oops.

I guess it was too absurd to be true.

2
thelemmy.club

What do you know about taxation in Estonia? Curious. The flat tax is on income ? Is there really a land value tax ? Thanks.

2
Marttireply
suppo.fi

Estonia is kinda shitty imo (im estomian🇪🇪). We dont have any big political activity except Tartu. Most people are still with this soviet mindset that you can't have impact on anything. Which lead to status quo coming to power , thus increasing poverty, and now conservatives get more popular, because they promise infinite QoL and money glitch, which will lead to even worse conditions of the country i assume. Estomian electorate can not think about any left idealogies apparently.

BTW: eventually i decided to revive the Pirate Party of Estonia. So if there is some true patriotic estomians, visit https://piraadid.ee/

3
thelemmy.club

You revive the pirate party ?! How cool is that ! How many members do you have ?

3

Very cool. The Finnish one died, though it was pretty useless while it lasted.

1
abcreply
suppo.fi

Estonia tax rate is 22% on personal income -- so for both income and capital gains. Also the dividend/corporate tax is quite company-friendly, companies pay corporate taxes only for money taken out as profit. I'm sure there are some details here that I don't know about rising the tax rate slightly from what I say here, but not by a lot afaik.

Quite the heaven for economic right-wingers. On paper at least. I'm guessing the practical reality (including a bit higher risk from Russia, I guess) isn't enough for that many Finns to move there, whatever their politics.

3
thelemmy.club

Thanks for the comment. When i learned about Estonian taxation, 20% was the percentage. I guess taxes have increased.

2
abcreply

Yeah, Covid-19 was probably one cause and being Russia's neighbor is probably the other.

2
Marttireply
suppo.fi

ESTOMIAN MENTIONED 🇪🇪🇪🇪🇪🇪🇪🇪🇪🇪🇪🇪🇪🇪🇪🇪🇪🇪.

2

Why would you leave Norway for shitty little Denmark tho

No really could downvoters explain? I lived in Aarhus briefly and it's just...fine. Lol

0
lemmy.ml

Ah all those young European English people emigrating to Australia.

We left. Please exclude us from this sort of European nonsense.

-29
gasgiantreply
lemmy.ml

Nope but see above. Unfortunately our people (which is what this map is about) aren't European anymore.

-12

Switzerland, Iceland, Turkey etc. are also included and they aren't EU members.

I feel like you are deliberately misunderstanding the EU and Europe.

8

Europe ≠ European Union. Unless you drag your island somewhere else, you're still in Europe, genius.

4
sopuli.xyz

You left Europe, the subcontinent? How did you manage?

Or are you confusing it with the European Union, the political system?

13
gasgiantreply
lemmy.ml

Are you confusing the land mass of England as being part of the European continent with the residents of England as being European?

Suggest you reread the post title. This is about young Europeans. Which unfortunately young English people aren't anymore.

-12

Suggest you reread the post title. This is about young Europeans. Which unfortunately young English people aren't anymore.

How exactly?

9

By definition, even England is part of the subcontinent Europe. You can’t just leave Europe by voting.

Brexit, what you are probably referring to, affected the membership of the EU. That one you left, correct.

4

They don't have the luxury of having their village idiots hidden behind a language barrier like the non-english countries.

5
semreply
lemmy.blahaj.zone

They really need to switch the New Zealand flag to the fern one so people can tell them apart

6
gasgiantreply
lemmy.ml

I would have thought the fact that the Aussie one has white stars (as in this map) and the New Zealand one has red stars made it clear enough already.

Still seems to confuse you though.

0

I don't see them both named and together often enough to notice that they have different colors, but maybe I'll remember it after this interaction.

I still like the fern better though.

2

last time I checked, the British Isles weren't a continent themselves, so we do belong to Europe 😅 (unless you're trying to imply that we somehow belong to the Americas)

4

Wait what, did y'all phisically moved the island away? Crazy shit, why i did not knew about it? Are newspapers even doing their work properly?

3

Brits in their mind literally rowing their little monkey-rock out into the Atlantic.

0
Most popular country for young Europeans (18-34) to emigrate to | Spyke