I have no experience of any of the things listed. The are all uniquely American products that only in American would ever consider consuming. Which I think is the point really.
Blondies? Pound cakes? Cheesecakes? Honestly, none of those appeal to me. They all seem like such bland treats.
Vanilla is a good flavour enhancer. I love it as an addition to something like a chocolate mousse or an egg nog. But, on its own it's as exciting as white rice, or spaghetti without sauce.
That's because 90% of things with "vanilla flavour" just have vanillin in it and that's it, while real vanilla has other stuff alongside vanillin in it which makes the flavour different, just try to eat stuff with fake vanilla and then eat stuff with real vanilla, you will notice a big difference
People are talking about the real vs artificial, but there's another component here. Many sweets have vanilla regardless of if they have any other flavorings. This results in it being very similar to cheese is on pizza, where you only call it cheese because it's only cheese.
I’m convinced that “vanilla” meaning “plain/no flavor” is because the makers of vanilla ice cream cut down on the amount being used so much that people associated it with flavorlessness.
It's not flavorless by any means, it's more that vanilla is a base flavor, to which other stuff is then added. It's the default so you get too used to it
Lots of things taste like vanilla, but that generic vanilla taste is as authentic as the generic banana taste. Real vanilla tastes very different from the chemical imitation that you find in every cheap dairy product. The "plain" in this story is refering to that fake vanilla. Real vanilla is still very much rare, expensive and exceptional.
Edit: fun fact, the fake banana taste is actually based off of the "gris michel" banana. This specific banana cultivar was THE generic banana you could buy in every grocery store. Until the 1950's when almost the whole species went extinct due to a decease. The "panama disease". Heavy monoculture farming made the banana industry extremely suseptible. Within a few years, all major farms were destroyed. Now we have a different banana cultuvar, the "Cavendish". This banana is not susceptible to the panama disease,but variations of the panama disease are allready showing up around the world.
Fun fact: your "fun fact" is a myth. Artificial banana flavor is not "based off Gros Michael". The flavoring is not some sort of recipe that was based off of anything. It's a single chemical found in all bananas. It's a coincidence that Gros Michael tastes more like fake banana flavoring than other bananas, but all bananas contain that same ester: isoamyl acetate. It's just that Gros Michael has more of it.
However, if you dig in to this tale a little it soon becomes clear that there is little or no verifiable source that artificial banana is based on Gros Michel. “It sounds very, very unlikely to me,” says synthetic organic chemist Derek Lowe.
In addition, you're completely wrong about artificial vanilla flavor. It is the exact ester found in real vanilla, and it is by far the most dominant flavor in real vanilla. It tastes exactly like vanilla minus a few extra subtle notes.
The real reason artificial banana flavoring tastes so jarring isn’t because food scientists modeled it on a lost fruit from a century ago. It comes down to a classic case of isolated organic chemistry vs. complex natural agriculture, a phenomenon known in statistical science as the “n=1” problem, and a single volatile molecule called isoamyl acetate.
Actually, the "fake" vanilla aroma is chemically identical to the main aroma of real vanilla. So you really can't say that it's as authentic as banana aroma, as that is only similar to real banana. Now real vanilla does taste different, because it has a lot of other components creating a much more complex taste profile.
Vanillin is the same chemical in both artificial vanilla flavorings and actual vanilla, so that definitely tastes the same.
Most people don't have the palate trained to really distinguish the subtle differences brought on by those other components and will probably appreciate both equally. I'm sure I couldn't tell both apart unless I was comparing them 1-to-1.
Yeah, I was about to ask who hasn't had both? Like, I've eaten, cooked and baked with real and fake vanilla and they're almost identical. I prefer vanilla extract over other options and I don't really care how much real vanilla is in it.
If you're cooking it, I agree, it's practically identical. When just mixed or raw, they're fairly different. Obviously the primary smell/taste is still vanillin, but there's a lot more to it that is mostly lost when cooking.
For what it's worth, it probably won't go extinct. Even if there wasn't a more resistant cultivar, they'd probably just get really expensive. It's still possible to get gros michael and others, just not as easily or for less than $1 USD unless the buyer lives near a plantation.
So this sent me down a rabbit hole and it turns out they're basically not available in the UK full stop as a fresh fruit, even via the European importer I found thanks to Brexit. I can import it dried, or otherwise I have to make a long weekend of it in France to try it!
Yeah it’s a bit of a stereotype but I feel privileged to live where I do on an essentially invasion-proof island with no major tectonic hazards, cheap but decent grocery prices by international standards, and I can get on a train, plane, or ferry and be in one of dozens of other countries in under a day. Brexit did screw up a lot (like importing obscure fresh food on a whim…) but it can’t actually unanchor us from Europe.
There’s a lot of structural issues and we hardly live in a utopia, in fact there’s massive own goals on housing and energy which probably won’t be fixed until NIMBY homeowners are no longer an electoral majority, but we’re too pessimistic to realise what a good hand we have geographically speaking.
Wasn't that whole gros michel story made up after the fact? Those bananas are still available, just more expensive. People who've eaten them have reported them tasting a bit more like the chemical banana taste, but not really the same. And the taste is highly dependent on how ripe the banana is. I think the actual story was the chemical banana was close enough and cheap and easy to produce. People also liked it, even though it didn't really taste like bananas. So it became the de facto banana taste. In small amounts the taste is a lot closer, but people prefer the higher amounts because of the more intense taste.
A food history myth is that artificial banana flavor was specifically developed from the Gros Michel, but isoamyl acetate is a simple compound and was not based on any specific cultivar.
It's all a little fuzzy but essentially the Gros Michel was THE cultivar of banana, but it became susceptible to a disease. It still exists, but can't be farmed like it used to be.
The chemical was developed and likened to the Gros Michel variety in mind for it being called 'banana' flavor since the Cavendish (i think?) hadn't yet replaced the world market as the banana cultivar of choice.
I think it might be more that the industrialization of agriculture made rare flavors far more commonplace.
Even real vanilla isn't all that expensive or hard to come by anymore. Virtually every grocery store has it in quantities that will suffice for anything but full on commercial needs.
So it has become a default flavor, exactly because it is both cheap to acquire and popular to consume. Not unlike chocolate (which, I might argue, is more vanilla than even mediocre quality vanilla).
It doesn't help that "vanilla" flavored products usually use a tiny drop of artificial vanillin.
Real vanilla has a much richer amazing taste. But even the artificial stuff would be ok if they just put more of it. That shit is cheap, pour it in dammit.
In a small saucepan, mix the milk & cream. Cut the vanilla bean in half lengthwise. Scrape the interior to collect all the seeds and dump them in the cream mixture along with the vanilla bean husk. Heat it up on medium heat. (Don't boil it!) Once it's hot, turn off the heat and let the vanilla steep.
In the meantime, seperate the egg yolks from the egg whites. In a large saucepan, mix the egg yolks with the sugar and manually whip them together until the mixture turns a very pale yellow.
Once the cream mixture cooled a bit, using a ladle, very slowly pour the cream mixture over the yolk mixture while continually stirring with a wooden apoon and make sure you let it cool before adding more or your yolks are going to turn into an omelet and create lumps. Keep stirring!
Once it's all mixed, set it on the stove over a low heat (if your stove goes up to 10, set it to 2 or 2 and a half) and KEEP STIRRING ! Don't ever stop stirring. Eventually it will thicken up. It should get thick enough that if you draw a line on the back of the wooden spoon with your finger, the cream shouldn't drip over the line.
Once it's thickened enough, pour into a bowl and set that bowl in a tub of cold water. (I usually fill the sink half way with cold water and set it in there. ) Keep stirring. You want to cool it to stop the cooking process.
Finally, cover the bowl with plastic wrap or whatever and leave it in the fridge overnight.
The next day, pour it in the ice cream machine and let it do its thing.
For a little extra, add 1-1.5 ouncse of bourbon while it's doing its thing.
Yeah you have to polinate each flower every morning by hand. But you only start to get flowers after abtout 8/10 years so... we are in for the long run
and its also grown in specific, tropical environment. aka most of it comes from africa, madagascar, and south america. so you cant really grow it in a temperate country like the usa. its not like those other ornamental orchids that are sold, those easy to grow.(most orchids are endangered in the wild, because of theier fungal symbionts specificity).
the problem with vanilla, is that we dont have its definitive natural, and vanilla orchid is pretty hard to cultivate too. it gets complicated when you are trying to find out the origin of vanllia in s america, and the original pollinator. i think people still do it by HAND.
its because like most orchids, it prevents self-fertilization through its flower structure, and requires by hand, which is cumbersome and tedious. vanilla is pretty hard to cultivate.
and normal people, horticulture are unable to do it effectively either.
As someone who gets issues with Chocolate. Vanilla has always been my go to. Finding good Vanilla ice cream is amazing. Having bad Vanilla ice cream though is so bad. Binging with Babish did a taste test of all Vanilla ice cream he could get his hands on. Benjerry had the best bang for your buck and is dam good but if you want the real good stuff Mcconnell makes you see what you have been missing in your life.
Vanilla is my favorite smell. Back in college when my buddy went to Mexico and brought back cup souvenirs for friends, he didn’t get one for me. Instead he gave me a big bottle of fancy vanilla. I kept that thing at my computer desk and every so often for the next couple years I’d pop it open and take a big rip of the smell just to feel a little more alive. It was so great.
I believe the cultivation of the vanilla orchid is a milestone on the cultural definition of everything sweet (in addition to invention of corn syrup).
Vanilla flavor is simple and straightforward. The funny thing about food is that the simpler the recipe is, the more important the quality of the ingredients has to be. Since more and more foods are enshittifying, vanilla is starting to taste very bland and boring. I remember the days when Breyer's had actual vanilla beans in their ice cream and that tasted delicious. You wouldn't say that about them now though.
There's a dish from Réunion island plainly called "vanilla chicken". It's onions, garlic, ginger, tomatoes, chicken, a few herbs and spices and a fuckton of vanilla simmered in a pot for hours. Like almost all creole dishes, it's served with white rice, lentils, fresh rougail and the most insane chili paste casually put on a table as if it was a salt shaker.
The sauce sounds similar to various ‘Caucasian-style’ ketchups. By which I mean cuisine of the Caucasus, i.e. mainly Georgia, Armenia and Azerbaijan. They love spices there. The spice selection in the rougaille recipes that I found is pretty similar, except the ketchup is made with fresh tomato paste and isn't cooked, to my knowledge. There's also the ajika sauce, which includes chili pepper instead of tomatoes, and a variety of other spices depending on the brand — it's more concentrated and probably more authentic than the ketchups.
80 replies
I sort of imagine that it is used so much in everything that it became the basic level default.
This pretty much sums up my feelings on vanilla.
For the people that can't see images, Here is video with a dramatic reading.
I have no experience of any of the things listed. The are all uniquely American products that only in American would ever consider consuming. Which I think is the point really.
Blondies? Pound cakes? Cheesecakes? Honestly, none of those appeal to me. They all seem like such bland treats.
Vanilla is a good flavour enhancer. I love it as an addition to something like a chocolate mousse or an egg nog. But, on its own it's as exciting as white rice, or spaghetti without sauce.
Yeah but then organic chemistry was like "hold my Carbon" and we got this for cheap
That's because 90% of things with "vanilla flavour" just have vanillin in it and that's it, while real vanilla has other stuff alongside vanillin in it which makes the flavour different, just try to eat stuff with fake vanilla and then eat stuff with real vanilla, you will notice a big difference
Missionary is the vanilla of sex. And I mean that in the best way.
Doggy is for people with ugly faces
And/or great butts.
People are talking about the real vs artificial, but there's another component here. Many sweets have vanilla regardless of if they have any other flavorings. This results in it being very similar to cheese is on pizza, where you only call it cheese because it's only cheese.
Cheeseburger cheese ≡ Vanillin
I’m convinced that “vanilla” meaning “plain/no flavor” is because the makers of vanilla ice cream cut down on the amount being used so much that people associated it with flavorlessness.
An early shrinkflation.
It's not flavorless by any means, it's more that vanilla is a base flavor, to which other stuff is then added. It's the default so you get too used to it
Yup. Intense, proper, yellow vanilla is delicious
Whoever's had this knows what I mean
Where I am, I can buy either vanilla or proper plain ice cream, so I should get both one day and compare.
Lots of things taste like vanilla, but that generic vanilla taste is as authentic as the generic banana taste. Real vanilla tastes very different from the chemical imitation that you find in every cheap dairy product. The "plain" in this story is refering to that fake vanilla. Real vanilla is still very much rare, expensive and exceptional.
Edit: fun fact, the fake banana taste is actually based off of the "gris michel" banana. This specific banana cultivar was THE generic banana you could buy in every grocery store. Until the 1950's when almost the whole species went extinct due to a decease. The "panama disease". Heavy monoculture farming made the banana industry extremely suseptible. Within a few years, all major farms were destroyed. Now we have a different banana cultuvar, the "Cavendish". This banana is not susceptible to the panama disease,but variations of the panama disease are allready showing up around the world.
The disease caused the decease.
Fun fact: your "fun fact" is a myth. Artificial banana flavor is not "based off Gros Michael". The flavoring is not some sort of recipe that was based off of anything. It's a single chemical found in all bananas. It's a coincidence that Gros Michael tastes more like fake banana flavoring than other bananas, but all bananas contain that same ester: isoamyl acetate. It's just that Gros Michael has more of it.
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20140829-the-secrets-of-fake-flavours
So please stop repeating this myth.
In addition, you're completely wrong about artificial vanilla flavor. It is the exact ester found in real vanilla, and it is by far the most dominant flavor in real vanilla. It tastes exactly like vanilla minus a few extra subtle notes.
Gros Michel still exists, but on an extremely small scale.
Cavendish is also a monoculture so it may well happen again.
This is an urban legend.
Actually, the "fake" vanilla aroma is chemically identical to the main aroma of real vanilla. So you really can't say that it's as authentic as banana aroma, as that is only similar to real banana. Now real vanilla does taste different, because it has a lot of other components creating a much more complex taste profile.
The banana flavours are also both real banana flavours.
That comparison just has so many health issues it should be taken to the back and put down
Vanillin is the same chemical in both artificial vanilla flavorings and actual vanilla, so that definitely tastes the same.
Most people don't have the palate trained to really distinguish the subtle differences brought on by those other components and will probably appreciate both equally. I'm sure I couldn't tell both apart unless I was comparing them 1-to-1.
Yeah, I was about to ask who hasn't had both? Like, I've eaten, cooked and baked with real and fake vanilla and they're almost identical. I prefer vanilla extract over other options and I don't really care how much real vanilla is in it.
If you're cooking it, I agree, it's practically identical. When just mixed or raw, they're fairly different. Obviously the primary smell/taste is still vanillin, but there's a lot more to it that is mostly lost when cooking.
since all the plantations are clones of the same banana its just a matter of time until we lose the banan
For what it's worth, it probably won't go extinct. Even if there wasn't a more resistant cultivar, they'd probably just get really expensive. It's still possible to get gros michael and others, just not as easily or for less than $1 USD unless the buyer lives near a plantation.
So this sent me down a rabbit hole and it turns out they're basically not available in the UK full stop as a fresh fruit, even via the European importer I found thanks to Brexit. I can import it dried, or otherwise I have to make a long weekend of it in France to try it!
Still, it's cool that you can do that. Seems crazy to lock down imports like that.
Yeah it’s a bit of a stereotype but I feel privileged to live where I do on an essentially invasion-proof island with no major tectonic hazards, cheap but decent grocery prices by international standards, and I can get on a train, plane, or ferry and be in one of dozens of other countries in under a day. Brexit did screw up a lot (like importing obscure fresh food on a whim…) but it can’t actually unanchor us from Europe.
There’s a lot of structural issues and we hardly live in a utopia, in fact there’s massive own goals on housing and energy which probably won’t be fixed until NIMBY homeowners are no longer an electoral majority, but we’re too pessimistic to realise what a good hand we have geographically speaking.
Wasn't that whole gros michel story made up after the fact? Those bananas are still available, just more expensive. People who've eaten them have reported them tasting a bit more like the chemical banana taste, but not really the same. And the taste is highly dependent on how ripe the banana is. I think the actual story was the chemical banana was close enough and cheap and easy to produce. People also liked it, even though it didn't really taste like bananas. So it became the de facto banana taste. In small amounts the taste is a lot closer, but people prefer the higher amounts because of the more intense taste.
It even says as much on the Wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gros_Michel#%3A%7E%3Atext=The+Gros+Michel+has+a%2Cseeming+version+of+the+Cavendish
Just like with every banana cultivar
It's all a little fuzzy but essentially the Gros Michel was THE cultivar of banana, but it became susceptible to a disease. It still exists, but can't be farmed like it used to be.
The chemical was developed and likened to the Gros Michel variety in mind for it being called 'banana' flavor since the Cavendish (i think?) hadn't yet replaced the world market as the banana cultivar of choice.
Theres also the secret third vanilla flavour, beaver butt stink.
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/does-vanilla-flavoring-actually-come-from-beaver-butts-180983288/
I think it might be more that the industrialization of agriculture made rare flavors far more commonplace.
Even real vanilla isn't all that expensive or hard to come by anymore. Virtually every grocery store has it in quantities that will suffice for anything but full on commercial needs.
So it has become a default flavor, exactly because it is both cheap to acquire and popular to consume. Not unlike chocolate (which, I might argue, is more vanilla than even mediocre quality vanilla).
Well there's some balatro lore I didn't expect.
Just get it from beaver butts. Way easier.
It doesn't help that "vanilla" flavored products usually use a tiny drop of artificial vanillin.
Real vanilla has a much richer amazing taste. But even the artificial stuff would be ok if they just put more of it. That shit is cheap, pour it in dammit.
Exactly. I make my own ice cream at home. Vanilla is my go to. It's amazing.
What ingredients do you use? And do you do all that manual stirring?
In a small saucepan, mix the milk & cream. Cut the vanilla bean in half lengthwise. Scrape the interior to collect all the seeds and dump them in the cream mixture along with the vanilla bean husk. Heat it up on medium heat. (Don't boil it!) Once it's hot, turn off the heat and let the vanilla steep.
In the meantime, seperate the egg yolks from the egg whites. In a large saucepan, mix the egg yolks with the sugar and manually whip them together until the mixture turns a very pale yellow.
Once the cream mixture cooled a bit, using a ladle, very slowly pour the cream mixture over the yolk mixture while continually stirring with a wooden apoon and make sure you let it cool before adding more or your yolks are going to turn into an omelet and create lumps. Keep stirring!
Once it's all mixed, set it on the stove over a low heat (if your stove goes up to 10, set it to 2 or 2 and a half) and KEEP STIRRING ! Don't ever stop stirring. Eventually it will thicken up. It should get thick enough that if you draw a line on the back of the wooden spoon with your finger, the cream shouldn't drip over the line.
Once it's thickened enough, pour into a bowl and set that bowl in a tub of cold water. (I usually fill the sink half way with cold water and set it in there. ) Keep stirring. You want to cool it to stop the cooking process.
Finally, cover the bowl with plastic wrap or whatever and leave it in the fridge overnight.
The next day, pour it in the ice cream machine and let it do its thing.
For a little extra, add 1-1.5 ouncse of bourbon while it's doing its thing.
Thank you!! But you really had me in the first part 😁, icecream machine? Is it just to push it out into a cone, or does it do anything important?
Oh wait. This what I'm talking about.
https://www.cuisinart.ca/en/gelateria-frozen-yogurt-ice-cream-gelato-and-sorbet-maker/ICE-70C.html
I understand it as not plain, but the normal. The go to. The first choice.
I'm growing my vanila orchid! 2 years in, just 8 years to go!
I've read it's really hard to get them to flower and go to seed indoors. Godspeed!
Yeah you have to polinate each flower every morning by hand. But you only start to get flowers after abtout 8/10 years so... we are in for the long run
and its also grown in specific, tropical environment. aka most of it comes from africa, madagascar, and south america. so you cant really grow it in a temperate country like the usa. its not like those other ornamental orchids that are sold, those easy to grow.(most orchids are endangered in the wild, because of theier fungal symbionts specificity).
vanilla doesn't mean plain, it means more someone like: original, unaltered
I've never heard that meaning of vanilla.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/vanilla#Adjective
Those meaning I've heard, but never "original"
the problem with vanilla, is that we dont have its definitive natural, and vanilla orchid is pretty hard to cultivate too. it gets complicated when you are trying to find out the origin of vanllia in s america, and the original pollinator. i think people still do it by HAND.
its because like most orchids, it prevents self-fertilization through its flower structure, and requires by hand, which is cumbersome and tedious. vanilla is pretty hard to cultivate.
and normal people, horticulture are unable to do it effectively either.
This is a vanilla meme.
As someone who gets issues with Chocolate. Vanilla has always been my go to. Finding good Vanilla ice cream is amazing. Having bad Vanilla ice cream though is so bad. Binging with Babish did a taste test of all Vanilla ice cream he could get his hands on. Benjerry had the best bang for your buck and is dam good but if you want the real good stuff Mcconnell makes you see what you have been missing in your life.
Yeah but bad chocolate is also trash, so this isn't a question of which ingredient is better but a question of quality.
The best ice cream I ever had was vanilla, and it was home made by a crazy person.
Cheap vanillin flavouring lacks all dimensions of vanilla, so it is indeed "plain"
It's the finest of the flavors.
https://youtu.be/fC_q9KPczAg?t=40
I too think that vanilla is the finest of the flavours.
Vanilla is my favorite smell. Back in college when my buddy went to Mexico and brought back cup souvenirs for friends, he didn’t get one for me. Instead he gave me a big bottle of fancy vanilla. I kept that thing at my computer desk and every so often for the next couple years I’d pop it open and take a big rip of the smell just to feel a little more alive. It was so great.
I believe the cultivation of the vanilla orchid is a milestone on the cultural definition of everything sweet (in addition to invention of corn syrup).
"VANILLA IS A FLAVOR!"
-Tiger Wiger
“I LOVE TO DRINK AND DRIVE!”
“AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaa”
Wow
I'm so into vanilla it's crazy. Seriously. Practically any dessert.
Vanilla is "plain" because it's incredibly inoffensive and mild.
It's also considered the boring option because everone loves it
Vanilla flavor is simple and straightforward. The funny thing about food is that the simpler the recipe is, the more important the quality of the ingredients has to be. Since more and more foods are enshittifying, vanilla is starting to taste very bland and boring. I remember the days when Breyer's had actual vanilla beans in their ice cream and that tasted delicious. You wouldn't say that about them now though.
Breyers still uses real vanilla
It says they use vanilla beans, but the ingredients list only says "natural flavor," and vanilla is not listed in the ingredients.
It's because people are so used to tasting it in sweet foods.
IMO, where vanilla really comes into its own is in very small amounts in savoury foods.
There's a dish from Réunion island plainly called "vanilla chicken". It's onions, garlic, ginger, tomatoes, chicken, a few herbs and spices and a fuckton of vanilla simmered in a pot for hours. Like almost all creole dishes, it's served with white rice, lentils, fresh rougail and the most insane chili paste casually put on a table as if it was a salt shaker.
It's fucking amazing.
Thanks for introducing me to rougail! That sounds so fucking tasty
The sauce sounds similar to various ‘Caucasian-style’ ketchups. By which I mean cuisine of the Caucasus, i.e. mainly Georgia, Armenia and Azerbaijan. They love spices there. The spice selection in the rougaille recipes that I found is pretty similar, except the ketchup is made with fresh tomato paste and isn't cooked, to my knowledge. There's also the ajika sauce, which includes chili pepper instead of tomatoes, and a variety of other spices depending on the brand — it's more concentrated and probably more authentic than the ketchups.
Try just a little bit in your scrambled eggs
yeah we should start calling it Boring instead
like "are you kinky or boring?" LOL
Ironically, most people would be aggravatingly surprised if they actually had the sex that most vanillas have.