Left a job of 10 years, project lead senior engineer, because fuckers FAFO'd an RTO. Of a team of 5, I was one they expected to stay because I was "close to the office". I was the first one to find a new, full time remote job.
I’m sure there is a little truth to it sometimes but one big thing this ignores is that many of us have always had remote coworkers because our employer has multiple offices in different cities, countries, and continents around the world. I’m not worried about someone who’s in the office with my boss passing me by because that’s a tiny minority of everyone we work with anyway.
Interestingly, this is also why WFH has held up at the company where I work. Even when you go in to the office, you spend half the day on zoom. Our company has consolidated floors, closed whole offices and entire campuses to reduce the amount of real estate it pays to maintain. There’s a lot of savings in it for them. And our CEO has said that he likes how remote work makes it trivial to get the entire leadership team together for a conversation because they aren’t all flying around the world constantly, inaccessible for days at a time because they’re traveling. They do make in person visits, but don’t live on planes like they used to. They also did the math and they exceeded their 10 year goal for climate reduction overnight just by going to remote.
There are so many benefits for the company as well as the employees that I’m really confused why some companies go all RTO. Probably they just don’t have good systems in place to know who’s doing their job. We do.
How is that bullshit? People do like to give promotions to other people they like, sometimes irrelevant of talent. Look at literally all non-democratic governments.
And it’s no secret random conversations not about work happen a lot more in person. These are the kind of conversations that make friendships, not the 1 on 1 with your manager on teams.
This is why most sane companies don’t force you to do 4 days but instead make it so that if you only have to do 2 days at the office, they’re the same 2 days of the week for everyone to avoid the situation in this post.
So incompetent management promoting the people who suck up to them (their "friends") rather than based on results and how well people are competing their tasks.
Sounds like a shit company/manager to work for. Better off finding another job.
Also, people tend to get promoted faster by switching employers. Don't fall for the lie of "company loyalty".
Fitting. LLM feels like working with that coworker that his core skills are actually convincing everyone (especially management) that he provides value, when in reality he drags everyone's performance down.
If I didn't have to explain the same exact shit I did last week in the 4th different way and have you still not understand, BUT still want to...
I appreciate that you want to understand, but I recognize you won't and that is okay. You don't need to know the details to take credit for the work. Your insistence to understand is wasting all of our time and most of my productivity.
Promoted twice since I last saw my boss in person. I asked him if would see any issue himself or for the company if I relocated myself back across the country closer to family; he was confused as to why I even asked.
He's not even a particularly good boss in most ways, but tons of people want to work for him because he stays the fuck out of their way.
What's that old quote from some famous guy "I just surrounded myself with people who were smart and interested in the company success then got out of there way"... It was something like that
I had a manager who wanted to know what we did. Understand it. Really get into the info, because only then could she really lead us, she thought.
Worst manager I had for a long while. She didn't understand anything and was easily annoyed by it. We were software engineers, she some media marketing whatever person. That ain't gonna happen.
All I see reading this is that managers and CEOs have never reached the object permanence phase of brain development, and need to be constantly visually reminded their employees exist or they'll never promote them regardless of the work they do.
But then, I guess no manager of a multi-office company has had a team member in another location prior to COVID, so how could they possibly have planned for what to do in that situation.
My first thought was, how do you work at a company with literal toddlers at management level and above and expect it to end well? I just started at a job where my boss is planning on slowing down and stepping back. A key part of getting the job was a willingness to work independently and with little to no direct supervision.
But then my boss is in touch with his business and aware of what's happening without having to actively spy on us. Also finding he loathes progress reports for the sake of progress reports. I'm still adjusting to no longer being actively micromanaged but it's clear that I need to check in when something is too much for me or when it's finished, anything else is wasting time.
But it also misses what a "promotion" means in theory (more autonomy and control, resources to pursue projects, underlings) versus what it means in practice (a token title change and a small raise with a ton of extra responsibility in an underperforming section of the firm).
So much of how you make progress in a business is to turn lemons into lemonade and sell that lemonade to your bosses.
Well ok then, in their own words, managers are incompotent morons who lack object permanence and have no idea how to gauge the usefulness or productivity or worth of any employee... without being able to invade their personal space and randomly question them.
Replace them with LLMs, LLMs would do a better job, these people don't deserve to be paid anything, they do literally nothing useful that a hopped up autocomplete algorithm can't do to the same effectiveness.
They'd be better CEOs and VPs than most CEOs and VPs.
They read reports that more competent specialists make, and talk with other high level generalist/aggregator people who do the same.
AKA, they summarize complex data into a narrative and chat.
LLMs probably cost less than CEOs and VPs do.
So why are we trying to jam LLMs in to do the much more complicated jobs they are not so great at doing?
Oh, right, its because the owner class are delusional narcissistic sociopaths who just want to feel appreciated and superior to others... and none of this is about making a better run company.
IIRC article well enough, pros were that they were able to talk to anyone at company at the same time, had all data available constantly and were great at drawing normal from data so in standard scenarios they could easily lead the company.
They hallucinated sometimes, but research found that not more than actual CEO's lol.
What they failed at was exceptional, bad situations. Too little data resulted in choices that ended with the simulated board firing them.
Well ok then, in their own words, managers are incompotent morons who lack object permanence and have no idea how to gauge the usefulness or productivity or worth of any employee... without being able to invade their personal space and randomly question them.
Uhhhh.... yeah? Have you never had a job before? XD
Half this thread is delusional raging against uncomfortable truths. Just because you dislike the reality before you isn't a reason to pretend it doesn't exist.!
You act as if its very obvious that managers are broadly like this. Yes, ok, we agree on that.
But, if you think these are real behaviors from many managers... then raging against them is not delusional.
Also... as opposed to only raging... I proposed a practical plan of action... replace these idiot managers with LLMs. This is essentially the opposite of pretending the problem does not exist.
Are you perhaps suffering from heat exhaustion, or are you normally this stupid?
Ah, I wasn't clear enough, sometimes I forget the platform serves all manner of reading comprehension levels!
Let me explain, implications laid bare so you might get it:
Managers, as humans, aren't magic omnipotent boxes that automatically perceive value clearly. Much like all the other interactions with humans outside of a screen, basic social abilities go far! Strangers incapable of forming human connections tend to not go as far as acquaintances.
You don't want to hear this, but being a stranger, or worse yet, a confirmed dickhead, means you're first on the chopping block and last on the promotion list.
LLM management where profitability/second is constantly evaluated against everyone else might suit a social darwinian, ready to tread on the back of their fellows. I personally prefer civilization, where a 5 minute daily chat with someone I genuinely respect is a pretty nice price to pay for not having my throat slit because my productivity fell 7% when grandma died.
It's trying to claim that the reason they got the promotion was they were physically in the building more than others. Because being seen is more important than doing the job
Of course, because promotion is the only way to get ahead, by taking on more responsibilities and managing other people, god forbid you'd get a raise just for being really good at what you do.
My last company had a cool pathway where you could become a "distinguished engineer" instead of a manager and get the same sort of huge salary and stock options. Unfortunately, my last company also liked to lay off huge swaths of engineers, particular those who were a year away from being eligible to become "distinguished engineers".
This "promotion as next obvious thing you want" needs to die. I don't want to go manage people and have told my manager that I'm happy in my current role and I don't want a promotion.
He was quite happy to know he did not have to worry about that.
No, you shouldn't feel good. Just think about the promotionest promotional promotion you would get promoted into if you you showed up in person! Someone out there got it instead!
I've been work from home for 10 years now and ive gotten numerous promotions.
I do travel a good bit (once every other month) where I get face to face time with coworkers, but that certainly hasn't always been the case.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that info graphic is absolutely bullshit.
It's real, but it frames it as though it's the employees fault for not doing self-promotion rather than the manager's fault for not keeping track of all the team members it's his job to support.
"You got the promotion, yet somehow your quality of life is shittier because you are spending 1/4th of your net pay on gas and eating out and child care and you had to get rid of your dog because you are not around enough to properly handle an animal, plus you have 10 hours less free time during the week because of your commute."
It's not wrong, but what it describes is ethically wrong in my opinion. Raises and promotions are less about work performance and more about performative theatre. Being chummy with management is often a better predictor of upward career trajectory.
Any decent manager knows better, but many managers became such by schmoozing their way up, so the cycle of incompetence continues.
Yeah you can do the work, but also probably the person in the office can also do the work.
If the person in the office is the one interacting with the upper management more and the work is being done equally well between them and some unknown person that works remotely why would they hire the person you do not know?
The management position / next level probably entails more people skills and dealing with people so someone you have hardly ever spoken to might not have those skills but the person in the office they know can at least deal with people well.
Year 3: From your home office, you spearhead multiple high level projects which triple the billable hours of your department. You are not in the office enough to lick the asshole of your manager so Bob the intern gets the promotion. Bob will be paid entry level salary and really knows how to get the tongue deep in that brown hole.
Year 4: Enough is enough. You quit that stupid job and secure a job with a company that values performance based promotions and raises. No one knows anything about your projects and when you leave they whither on the vine.
Year 5: You run into Bob at the pub. He says management converted the office to AI and everyone got fired.
Year 6: You chuckle when you drive by that company you used to work for and find the building is now for lease and the company is in bankruptcy.
I'll probably get downvoted, and your mileage may vary, but it's possible that being visible and in-person with your coworkers increases your chances of getting a raise or promotion.
In a perfect world it wouldn't make a difference if your performance is good in a remote position, but humans are not perfectly logical and rational creatures. There's going to be bias and emotion involved when it comes to giving promotions.
but it’s possible that being visible and in-person with your coworkers increases your chances of getting a raise or promotion.
On my current job for about 2 years, I had 2 promotions. Both times I had to literally go to my boss and tell "for current payrate and for current set of responsibilities, you can go fuck yourself, I'm out". Only after that I got promoted. Doubt it will work third time, so I actively look for new job.
Point is - no one in our company gets promotions, no matter if you literally suck CEO dry (CEO is a "she", so that would be at least funny to watch) or if you freelancer that no one seen in office even once (me).
and your mileage may vary
Maybe I'm in this category tho, but feels like it's global problem, judging by comments.
I find it works better for staff to come in if they are still learning on a task. I am far more likely to get people to ask me and each other questions in person than over email and instant message.
I've literally given a job to two people, broken out the components on who would do what, told them to coordinate with each other, them found out later they never reached out to each other once. Then I had to get involved in redoing the task.
Yeah, I'd forgotten this aspect. I've been mostly fully remote for six years. Whenever I very occasionally work in the office, being knowledgeable on many of the things we work on, I get bombarded with questions all day.
As others have said, many managers are kind of stupid and don't have good object permanence.
There's a guy at work who's very visible but most of what he's doing is bad. He's like writing a linter from scratch instead of just using the tools we already have. But he's visible, and idiot managers that don't understand how computers work think he's doing great work. The engineers that actually get shit done competently are quietly whispering about how to block and delay this guy's nonsense.
At my last job, whenever the manager and one of the guys would both be in the office together, by the end of the day they'd have cooked up some horrible idea. Then the rest of us would struggle to take stop it without losing all our social capital. Maybe if we'd all been in the office that would've been easier, but if they knew how to fucking collaborate it also would have been fine.
Maybe that's your point. There are people who are incompetent at collaboration and communication. They will never get better. Being in office with them is maybe the only way to deal with that.
One thing I noticed when people would call into a meeting and other people were in a room for same meeting, the computer screen was always shared so any data or presentation was shown to the call-in people but then someone in room would ask a question and the presenter would draw a diagram or a drawing on the white board and the call in person completely missed it.
Like a presenter would report data and say something like "the measurements of dimension 0.45 +/- 0.005 are trending upwards close to the control limit" and then someone in room asks "what is that dimension for". The presenter would then go to the white board and draw a diagram. You might say can't you just pull up the drawing on the computer and the answer in yes except for where 2 parts interact. You could pull up both drawings and kinda move mouse around like see this feature, then switch to second drawing, move mouse around second feature and be like feature one snaps into feature 2. Or draw a simple diagram in 30 seconds.
Off the top of my head at that office I think there were 22 meeting rooms. Most with 2 white boards if not more. So you would need to buy 44 cameras. Alot of them werent even real white boards but like these clear glass boards which were hung infront of a white wall.
I don't know if you know who Casey muratori is but I would of loved a white board in the style he has. It's basically translucent and he writes on the back of it and it's over laid on his stream. He jumps between his computer to show code and then goes to board to do diagrams or quick math or whatever.
Owl cameras area great, they follow speakers around the room. You could even mount a plain old security camera on the ceiling and attach it to the videoconference system.
Does that guy just flip his video so that he can write forwards and you still see it forwards? Writing equations backwards would be a hell of a skill. I'd probably end up forgetting how to write them forwards.
I have no idea how he does it but let me find a video to demonstrate. The content doesn't really matter if your not technical but I'm just referring to the board he has.
Or... You can use one of the many tools that meeting software providers that lets you draw on your shared screen. I'm pretty sure Teams solved this problem in at least 2022, possibly before.
Yeah, I've been remote for most of the last 20 years. Some people seem to lack object permanence and organization skills and completely forget that their remote coworkers/subordinates exist.
I've been remote since 2013. We said "distributed" because it was important that we didn't have a central office. This kind of thing happened much less. A company can do distributed well.
That hasn't held up forever. Because, well, gestured wildly at entire sub.
I quit 2 jobs that had a RTO. One was Salesforce when they acquired Slack. The other was another software company that I still have an NDA with.
I'm never going back into the office. I rather make less money.
What's interesting is that I'm actually making more money doing remote because I don't need to commute or pay for lunches or happy hours anymore. Actual time spent at work calculated, I'm making 40% more $.
Got it. Show up to work so you can kiss your bosses ass often and in person so that they give you a promotion solely based on your in person ass licking.
Sounds to me like a broken system that promotes based on the wrong metrics....
I’ve been working remote-first since 1998, most of the time fully remote, and ended up at the C-suite level very quickly. Try to find companies who value competency or create one yourself (I know - easier said than done). This infographic is more about how to play a stupid game at a shitty company.
I imagine most of this is actually true for a lot of companies. Not because it's a good or even sensible model. Because most companies are mismanaged due to rampant nepotism, among many other issues.
What percantage of managers you've met had any idea what they're doing?
That's a lot of words to say "Office politics is important."
Remote workers know this. They aren't necessarily looking for a promotion, with more responsibilities, although everybody wants more money. Working remotely can already feel like a promotion.
And if I had to come in to the office a couple of days a week, I'd make sure that at least one of them was on the same day as my boss. Scheduling your office days against your boss' seems like you are deliberately avoiding them. If I were the boss, I'd certainly take it that way, and make sure we cross paths at least once a week.
But the remote worker has already made the calculation that working at home has advantages that outweigh promotions, and perhaps even raises. If they can get their 40 hour job done in 10-15 hours at home, they can devote that extra time to another job, or their hobby, or family, or training for the Olympics, or something.
Why are you not being a big enough suckass? Come on people why can't we just go back to the way things were when small minded narcissists ruled the workforce. When you are not around in person how am I going to get my narcissistic supply? Won't someone think of the narcissists?
I think this very much depends on the person. My boss is one of those types who feels more connected when he is talking around the water cooler. I am very much not. Before him as boss, I was very much thriving in a remote/travel gig, under him, I am very much not.
Not to say I’m going to change my remote status, for one, I’m 1000 miles away. If I change anything, it would be places of employment.
As for this infographic? Like most things in life - it depends. Figure out your boss, and your boss’s boss. Then do what you need to do to achieve your goals.
07++ You die childless full of remorse because your job couldnt support a SAHM and required you to drive to office everyday so no time to see your would be children.
What a bunch of shit. I go to work every day because I like what I get to do and I need to be there. If I didn't like what I do or need to be there, fuck traffic. Fuck driving at all, and frankly, I didn't put my balls on the line to declare my love to the woman I married just to spend most of my life with some randos. I want to be home having all sorts of sex with her all the time possible for us to do that....but I do like the things I do. So honey, I'll be a little late but keep my couch warm okay?
Research is with me that they perceive employees at the office as more committed, promotion-worthy even though there’s no evidence for that. It’s just the people who are fine playing the ineffective corporate game.
Imo the problem is lack of structured evaluation systems that’s perpetuated by dinosaurs for managers, lazy and/or incompetent managers without context who don’t want structured evaluation systems, so they can keep stroking their egos instead of making the company perform better, wasting everybody’s time with this BS
This sadly aligns with my company. Remote workers remaining from before the forced return to office can’t get a promotion unless they move to a city with an official office. This is actually the stated company policy, not an unspoken policy.
I have no idea what office people do. From my research they sit in front of computers and write emails, frown at the occasional spreadsheet, and grow more irritated the more interaction they have to have with coworkers they don't want to copulate with.
They also get evasive and defensive when you ask them what their job title means.
If they can get paid to forward emails and avoid social interaction from home, thermodynamically, that seems more efficient. To me, at least.
Worked on both sides, some people are just email coordinators but often times what's actually happening in the office is planning. I've worked in manufacturing so the planning is forming contracts with suppliers for raw materials, planning the logistics of getting those raw materials from the supplier to the plant, scheduling time for PMs, scheduling people's shifts to process the raw materials, negotiating with customers, planning the logistics of getting the finished goods to your customers, ensuring compliance with governing body's, arbitrating employee grievances, ensuring that you're meeting the requirements of the industrial insurance policy, develop improvements to the processes, ensure compliance with corporate, audit the systems for improvement, maintain health and safety, manage budgets for literally everything the company does, and that's just off the top of my head. A good office in manufacturing at least isn't noticeable because everything is done and ready for production when they need it.
I can't work remote because sometimes I have to work on physical servers but when I am in the office, I am the only person in the building half the time so I mostly play games on my personal laptop or shitpost online.
I mostly agree. Optimally I think being mostly in office while having flexibility as needed is best. Honestly - working vacations should be more normal. Example, during corona I would a couple of times a year spend close to a month in other cities working and then having fun on my time. I am thankful to have a good tech job that I could pull that off. But travel to another place for a period of time and work remote in a place you can explore.
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lol what a load of bullshit
Happened to me... Except that before last step I quit.
Left a job of 10 years, project lead senior engineer, because fuckers FAFO'd an RTO. Of a team of 5, I was one they expected to stay because I was "close to the office". I was the first one to find a new, full time remote job.
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
AI bullshit!
I’m sure there is a little truth to it sometimes but one big thing this ignores is that many of us have always had remote coworkers because our employer has multiple offices in different cities, countries, and continents around the world. I’m not worried about someone who’s in the office with my boss passing me by because that’s a tiny minority of everyone we work with anyway.
Interestingly, this is also why WFH has held up at the company where I work. Even when you go in to the office, you spend half the day on zoom. Our company has consolidated floors, closed whole offices and entire campuses to reduce the amount of real estate it pays to maintain. There’s a lot of savings in it for them. And our CEO has said that he likes how remote work makes it trivial to get the entire leadership team together for a conversation because they aren’t all flying around the world constantly, inaccessible for days at a time because they’re traveling. They do make in person visits, but don’t live on planes like they used to. They also did the math and they exceeded their 10 year goal for climate reduction overnight just by going to remote.
There are so many benefits for the company as well as the employees that I’m really confused why some companies go all RTO. Probably they just don’t have good systems in place to know who’s doing their job. We do.
How is that bullshit? People do like to give promotions to other people they like, sometimes irrelevant of talent. Look at literally all non-democratic governments.
And it’s no secret random conversations not about work happen a lot more in person. These are the kind of conversations that make friendships, not the 1 on 1 with your manager on teams.
This is why most sane companies don’t force you to do 4 days but instead make it so that if you only have to do 2 days at the office, they’re the same 2 days of the week for everyone to avoid the situation in this post.
So incompetent management promoting the people who suck up to them (their "friends") rather than based on results and how well people are competing their tasks.
Sounds like a shit company/manager to work for. Better off finding another job.
Also, people tend to get promoted faster by switching employers. Don't fall for the lie of "company loyalty".
Whoever came up with this has probably always used 'optics first, actual results last' in their shitty career so far.
Considering this was made with AI, yes, absolutely
Fitting. LLM feels like working with that coworker that his core skills are actually convincing everyone (especially management) that he provides value, when in reality he drags everyone's performance down.
Fake it til you make it
Fake it till others believe your bullshit.
Not having a conversation with my supervisor for months at a time is literally the dream.
If I didn't have to explain the same exact shit I did last week in the 4th different way and have you still not understand, BUT still want to...
I appreciate that you want to understand, but I recognize you won't and that is okay. You don't need to know the details to take credit for the work. Your insistence to understand is wasting all of our time and most of my productivity.
Promoted twice since I last saw my boss in person. I asked him if would see any issue himself or for the company if I relocated myself back across the country closer to family; he was confused as to why I even asked.
He's not even a particularly good boss in most ways, but tons of people want to work for him because he stays the fuck out of their way.
That's like, 70% of good management.
What's that old quote from some famous guy "I just surrounded myself with people who were smart and interested in the company success then got out of there way"... It was something like that
Another 20% is keeping everyone else out of the way too.
Honestly, this is the real underrated trick. A great manager removes blockers. Their job is first and foremost to get shit off the train tracks.
I had a manager who wanted to know what we did. Understand it. Really get into the info, because only then could she really lead us, she thought.
Worst manager I had for a long while. She didn't understand anything and was easily annoyed by it. We were software engineers, she some media marketing whatever person. That ain't gonna happen.
Yeah. The one time you actually need a manager is when you have some fuck-up of a coworker who's making things worse for everybody.
Another 25 is keeping other people out of your way also. The last 5? Going to bat for you when needed.
The secret to this is not believing in the promotion fairy.
If you want a promotion, apply for it at another company. If you get it, awesome, if you don't, try at a 3rd company.
At my current job, the agreement is I do the job you hired me for, and you give me the money and benefits we agreed upon.
oh I believe in the promotion fairy. Just not the raise fairy.
More responsibility, same salary...
xactly. promotions and title changes are given out like candy.
All I see reading this is that managers and CEOs have never reached the object permanence phase of brain development, and need to be constantly visually reminded their employees exist or they'll never promote them regardless of the work they do.
But then, I guess no manager of a multi-office company has had a team member in another location prior to COVID, so how could they possibly have planned for what to do in that situation.
My takeaway is that internal promotions aren't based on merit and you gotta schmooze.
I mean, yes, that's true.
My first thought was, how do you work at a company with literal toddlers at management level and above and expect it to end well? I just started at a job where my boss is planning on slowing down and stepping back. A key part of getting the job was a willingness to work independently and with little to no direct supervision.
But then my boss is in touch with his business and aware of what's happening without having to actively spy on us. Also finding he loathes progress reports for the sake of progress reports. I'm still adjusting to no longer being actively micromanaged but it's clear that I need to check in when something is too much for me or when it's finished, anything else is wasting time.
Ding ding ding ding
Love it when they state so clearly that promotions are a byproduct of office politics, not actual work performance.
This isn't exactly news.
But it also misses what a "promotion" means in theory (more autonomy and control, resources to pursue projects, underlings) versus what it means in practice (a token title change and a small raise with a ton of extra responsibility in an underperforming section of the firm).
So much of how you make progress in a business is to turn lemons into lemonade and sell that lemonade to your bosses.
Year 1: "incredibly productive"
Year 5: "not about the work"
I love how they freely admit that it has nothing to do with being good at your job and everything to do with schmoozing.
Like that's really the purpose of the company... manufacturing schmooze, so we need good schmoozers
Well ok then, in their own words, managers are incompotent morons who lack object permanence and have no idea how to gauge the usefulness or productivity or worth of any employee... without being able to invade their personal space and randomly question them.
Replace them with LLMs, LLMs would do a better job, these people don't deserve to be paid anything, they do literally nothing useful that a hopped up autocomplete algorithm can't do to the same effectiveness.
There was an experiment where they simulated LLM performing various company roles. The higher you put it, the more effective it was... xD
LLMs are great at being generalists.
They'd be better CEOs and VPs than most CEOs and VPs.
They read reports that more competent specialists make, and talk with other high level generalist/aggregator people who do the same.
AKA, they summarize complex data into a narrative and chat.
LLMs probably cost less than CEOs and VPs do.
So why are we trying to jam LLMs in to do the much more complicated jobs they are not so great at doing?
Oh, right, its because the owner class are delusional narcissistic sociopaths who just want to feel appreciated and superior to others... and none of this is about making a better run company.
Its about enforcing a social caste system.
IIRC article well enough, pros were that they were able to talk to anyone at company at the same time, had all data available constantly and were great at drawing normal from data so in standard scenarios they could easily lead the company.
They hallucinated sometimes, but research found that not more than actual CEO's lol.
What they failed at was exceptional, bad situations. Too little data resulted in choices that ended with the simulated board firing them.
This is exactly what I mean.
They just actually can do these kinds of tasks as well as people.
... and they'd be less expensive to run, in those roles, than the humans that currently have those salaries and stock options.
Unrealistic, boards haven't fired or assasinated Elon yet, this is blatant anti-clanker bias.
Uhhhh.... yeah? Have you never had a job before? XD
Half this thread is delusional raging against uncomfortable truths. Just because you dislike the reality before you isn't a reason to pretend it doesn't exist.!
... Your comment doesn't make any sense.
You act as if its very obvious that managers are broadly like this. Yes, ok, we agree on that.
But, if you think these are real behaviors from many managers... then raging against them is not delusional.
Also... as opposed to only raging... I proposed a practical plan of action... replace these idiot managers with LLMs. This is essentially the opposite of pretending the problem does not exist.
Are you perhaps suffering from heat exhaustion, or are you normally this stupid?
Ah, I wasn't clear enough, sometimes I forget the platform serves all manner of reading comprehension levels!
Let me explain, implications laid bare so you might get it: Managers, as humans, aren't magic omnipotent boxes that automatically perceive value clearly. Much like all the other interactions with humans outside of a screen, basic social abilities go far! Strangers incapable of forming human connections tend to not go as far as acquaintances.
You don't want to hear this, but being a stranger, or worse yet, a confirmed dickhead, means you're first on the chopping block and last on the promotion list.
LLM management where profitability/second is constantly evaluated against everyone else might suit a social darwinian, ready to tread on the back of their fellows. I personally prefer civilization, where a 5 minute daily chat with someone I genuinely respect is a pretty nice price to pay for not having my throat slit because my productivity fell 7% when grandma died.
WHAT THE FUCK ARE THEY TALKING ABOUT I HATE THIS WORLD
It's trying to claim that the reason they got the promotion was they were physically in the building more than others. Because being seen is more important than doing the job
I find it interesting how "the promotion" is an end in itself. No context, no details, just "the promotion". And you didn't get it! Tsk, tsk, tsk.
Of course, because promotion is the only way to get ahead, by taking on more responsibilities and managing other people, god forbid you'd get a raise just for being really good at what you do.
My last company had a cool pathway where you could become a "distinguished engineer" instead of a manager and get the same sort of huge salary and stock options. Unfortunately, my last company also liked to lay off huge swaths of engineers, particular those who were a year away from being eligible to become "distinguished engineers".
Find a company that has it. The evil silicon Valley tech bros almost all offer it. Senior, staff, senior staff, principal, distinguished, fellow...
This "promotion as next obvious thing you want" needs to die. I don't want to go manage people and have told my manager that I'm happy in my current role and I don't want a promotion. He was quite happy to know he did not have to worry about that.
LinkedIn is such wanker filled trash
Ah ... a participation trophy based business strategy.
Don't to to the office. People who think up shit like the above are there.
I've been wfh for like a year now and just got promoted to cloud engineer. I'm good, thanks
No, you shouldn't feel good. Just think about the promotionest promotional promotion you would get promoted into if you you showed up in person! Someone out there got it instead!
/s just in case
So... You still working on rain or have you been promoted to snow?
Wait: You're not one of those sleet people, are you?
How's cloud engineer? I'm going into IT and I wanna know more about diffrent paths
I've been work from home for 10 years now and ive gotten numerous promotions. I do travel a good bit (once every other month) where I get face to face time with coworkers, but that certainly hasn't always been the case. I guess what I'm trying to say is that info graphic is absolutely bullshit.
With the comic style plagiarized here, I fully expected throwing a baby to be one of the steps...
It's real, but it frames it as though it's the employees fault for not doing self-promotion rather than the manager's fault for not keeping track of all the team members it's his job to support.
100% shitty management - remote workers force managers to do more than just float around an office having hallway conversations.
I'm fully remote but I still have meetings and chat with my coworkers and boss all the time. I guess I'm doing it wrong 😅
Yes, but did you get "The Promotion" or just a raise??!??
Do companies even still promote people? I've never seen major raises without having to switch jobs anywhere I've worked.
Because those employers are hoarding the money that would go towards a raise, only shoveling it into the maws of their CEOs and shareholders.
I am on year four on fully remote. I got a promotion. Its remote.
"You got the promotion, yet somehow your quality of life is shittier because you are spending 1/4th of your net pay on gas and eating out and child care and you had to get rid of your dog because you are not around enough to properly handle an animal, plus you have 10 hours less free time during the week because of your commute."
And let's be fair, no one is getting the promotion.
If it isn't about the work then TF is it about?
I go to work for MONEY. You pay to make you MONEY. For me to make you money, you need me to WORK
It is about the work.
Now pay me more
It's about an AI generated sense of accomplishment.
It's not wrong, but what it describes is ethically wrong in my opinion. Raises and promotions are less about work performance and more about performative theatre. Being chummy with management is often a better predictor of upward career trajectory.
Any decent manager knows better, but many managers became such by schmoozing their way up, so the cycle of incompetence continues.
Upper management isn't only about the work.
Yeah you can do the work, but also probably the person in the office can also do the work.
If the person in the office is the one interacting with the upper management more and the work is being done equally well between them and some unknown person that works remotely why would they hire the person you do not know?
The management position / next level probably entails more people skills and dealing with people so someone you have hardly ever spoken to might not have those skills but the person in the office they know can at least deal with people well.
Year 3: From your home office, you spearhead multiple high level projects which triple the billable hours of your department. You are not in the office enough to lick the asshole of your manager so Bob the intern gets the promotion. Bob will be paid entry level salary and really knows how to get the tongue deep in that brown hole.
Year 4: Enough is enough. You quit that stupid job and secure a job with a company that values performance based promotions and raises. No one knows anything about your projects and when you leave they whither on the vine.
Year 5: You run into Bob at the pub. He says management converted the office to AI and everyone got fired.
Year 6: You chuckle when you drive by that company you used to work for and find the building is now for lease and the company is in bankruptcy.
Year 3: I get a new job that values my output instead of my physical location.
Year 4: I still laugh about the morons in managment.
They don't show the alternative where he spent the commuting time applying for jobs.
I appreciate the admission that promotions have nothing to do with fitness or performance.
I'll probably get downvoted, and your mileage may vary, but it's possible that being visible and in-person with your coworkers increases your chances of getting a raise or promotion.
In a perfect world it wouldn't make a difference if your performance is good in a remote position, but humans are not perfectly logical and rational creatures. There's going to be bias and emotion involved when it comes to giving promotions.
On my current job for about 2 years, I had 2 promotions. Both times I had to literally go to my boss and tell "for current payrate and for current set of responsibilities, you can go fuck yourself, I'm out". Only after that I got promoted. Doubt it will work third time, so I actively look for new job.
Point is - no one in our company gets promotions, no matter if you literally suck CEO dry (CEO is a "she", so that would be at least funny to watch) or if you freelancer that no one seen in office even once (me).
I find it works better for staff to come in if they are still learning on a task. I am far more likely to get people to ask me and each other questions in person than over email and instant message.
I've literally given a job to two people, broken out the components on who would do what, told them to coordinate with each other, them found out later they never reached out to each other once. Then I had to get involved in redoing the task.
Yeah, I'd forgotten this aspect. I've been mostly fully remote for six years. Whenever I very occasionally work in the office, being knowledgeable on many of the things we work on, I get bombarded with questions all day.
As others have said, many managers are kind of stupid and don't have good object permanence.
There's a guy at work who's very visible but most of what he's doing is bad. He's like writing a linter from scratch instead of just using the tools we already have. But he's visible, and idiot managers that don't understand how computers work think he's doing great work. The engineers that actually get shit done competently are quietly whispering about how to block and delay this guy's nonsense.
At my last job, whenever the manager and one of the guys would both be in the office together, by the end of the day they'd have cooked up some horrible idea. Then the rest of us would struggle to take stop it without losing all our social capital. Maybe if we'd all been in the office that would've been easier, but if they knew how to fucking collaborate it also would have been fine.
Maybe that's your point. There are people who are incompetent at collaboration and communication. They will never get better. Being in office with them is maybe the only way to deal with that.
One thing I noticed when people would call into a meeting and other people were in a room for same meeting, the computer screen was always shared so any data or presentation was shown to the call-in people but then someone in room would ask a question and the presenter would draw a diagram or a drawing on the white board and the call in person completely missed it.
Like a presenter would report data and say something like "the measurements of dimension 0.45 +/- 0.005 are trending upwards close to the control limit" and then someone in room asks "what is that dimension for". The presenter would then go to the white board and draw a diagram. You might say can't you just pull up the drawing on the computer and the answer in yes except for where 2 parts interact. You could pull up both drawings and kinda move mouse around like see this feature, then switch to second drawing, move mouse around second feature and be like feature one snaps into feature 2. Or draw a simple diagram in 30 seconds.
Why wouldn't there be a camera on the white board? Poor tech implementation.
Off the top of my head at that office I think there were 22 meeting rooms. Most with 2 white boards if not more. So you would need to buy 44 cameras. Alot of them werent even real white boards but like these clear glass boards which were hung infront of a white wall.
I don't know if you know who Casey muratori is but I would of loved a white board in the style he has. It's basically translucent and he writes on the back of it and it's over laid on his stream. He jumps between his computer to show code and then goes to board to do diagrams or quick math or whatever.
Owl cameras area great, they follow speakers around the room. You could even mount a plain old security camera on the ceiling and attach it to the videoconference system.
Does that guy just flip his video so that he can write forwards and you still see it forwards? Writing equations backwards would be a hell of a skill. I'd probably end up forgetting how to write them forwards.
I have no idea how he does it but let me find a video to demonstrate. The content doesn't really matter if your not technical but I'm just referring to the board he has.
https://youtu.be/tD5NrevFtbU?is=pfHZxt9tf68gNpcD
I no longer work at that company so the camera situation is not my problem.
Or... You can use one of the many tools that meeting software providers that lets you draw on your shared screen. I'm pretty sure Teams solved this problem in at least 2022, possibly before.
True but drawing with a marker and drawing with a mouse never mind a laptop touchpad are very different skills.
I was honestly assuming the person would be using a smartboard or large touchscreen for a presentation anyway...
This was a huge company. I was at a "small" facility with 22 meeting rooms. There were over 150 facilities world wide. The cost of that would be huge.
Yeah, I've been remote for most of the last 20 years. Some people seem to lack object permanence and organization skills and completely forget that their remote coworkers/subordinates exist.
Jesus Christ, capitalists are fucking unhinged with their bullshit.
Hahaha get fucked i've worked remote since 2015.
I've been remote since 2013. We said "distributed" because it was important that we didn't have a central office. This kind of thing happened much less. A company can do distributed well.
That hasn't held up forever. Because, well, gestured wildly at entire sub.
I quit 2 jobs that had a RTO. One was Salesforce when they acquired Slack. The other was another software company that I still have an NDA with.
I'm never going back into the office. I rather make less money.
What's interesting is that I'm actually making more money doing remote because I don't need to commute or pay for lunches or happy hours anymore. Actual time spent at work calculated, I'm making 40% more $.
Got it. Show up to work so you can kiss your bosses ass often and in person so that they give you a promotion solely based on your in person ass licking.
Sounds to me like a broken system that promotes based on the wrong metrics....
Only way your gonna get anywhere is if you eat ass
I’ve been working remote-first since 1998, most of the time fully remote, and ended up at the C-suite level very quickly. Try to find companies who value competency or create one yourself (I know - easier said than done). This infographic is more about how to play a stupid game at a shitty company.
Year 1: incredibly productive
So if productivity is up why are we going up hybrid in the first place?
"slop on linkedin? better put the slop on lemmy too"
Everything in that meme is categorically untrue and complete nonsense.
Take the money saved by not commuting, and invest it. The ROI on that investment gives you more in Year 01 than you'll get from your raise in Year 06.
Give yourself that promotion 5 years early: Stay remote.
I imagine most of this is actually true for a lot of companies. Not because it's a good or even sensible model. Because most companies are mismanaged due to rampant nepotism, among many other issues.
What percantage of managers you've met had any idea what they're doing?
year 3 is bullshit. you pick team days, and come all together
Yeah. The value of having everyone be in the office isn't the furniture.
TLDR: Capitalism is stupid
Funny how, even in their weird masturbatory LinkedIn fever dreams, the person still ends up going from working in office five days a week, to four.
So apparently all of this was still worth it.
Or you can skip all that and leave after year 2 and get a better paying job.
Does linkedin they also have instructional infographics on how to get a raise or promotion by blackmailing or extorting your boss?
sleeping with the boss if you are a hot secretary
You sit at home in your work pod, oblivious to the free ice cream, nachos, and hot oil massages your colleagues are enjoying right now at the office.
Who stays at a job for 6 years? Almost everyone I know who is trying to climb the ladder changes companies at least every 3-4 years.
A raise with no promotion = more pay for the same responsibilities.
The last point in year 3 sounds divine.
Also at the end of it all they went for a 4 day work week, on top of the raises.
That's a lot of words to say "Office politics is important."
Remote workers know this. They aren't necessarily looking for a promotion, with more responsibilities, although everybody wants more money. Working remotely can already feel like a promotion.
And if I had to come in to the office a couple of days a week, I'd make sure that at least one of them was on the same day as my boss. Scheduling your office days against your boss' seems like you are deliberately avoiding them. If I were the boss, I'd certainly take it that way, and make sure we cross paths at least once a week.
But the remote worker has already made the calculation that working at home has advantages that outweigh promotions, and perhaps even raises. If they can get their 40 hour job done in 10-15 hours at home, they can devote that extra time to another job, or their hobby, or family, or training for the Olympics, or something.
Not spending 500$ per month on commute, or another 500 on food because no space in work fridge, Plus more sleep from no commute Is INSTANT value.
Buahahahhah laughs in try-to-get-rid-of-my-remote-ass-being-invaluable
Why are you not being a big enough suckass? Come on people why can't we just go back to the way things were when small minded narcissists ruled the workforce. When you are not around in person how am I going to get my narcissistic supply? Won't someone think of the narcissists?
/s...sorta
I think this very much depends on the person. My boss is one of those types who feels more connected when he is talking around the water cooler. I am very much not. Before him as boss, I was very much thriving in a remote/travel gig, under him, I am very much not.
Not to say I’m going to change my remote status, for one, I’m 1000 miles away. If I change anything, it would be places of employment.
As for this infographic? Like most things in life - it depends. Figure out your boss, and your boss’s boss. Then do what you need to do to achieve your goals.
My goal? Not to get promoted. I don't want to manage people.
Yep. I'll take the raise and pass on the promotion thanks. And no promotion is worth spending 10 hours a week commuting (to me).
07++ You die childless full of remorse because your job couldnt support a SAHM and required you to drive to office everyday so no time to see your would be children.
I wouldn't even care for a promotion if I'm making enough to sustain my living and happy.
Y'all got raises?
We need a new plague.
Hopefully they learned from recent history and do it right this time around.
Most managers are incompetent. Just stupid emotion driven large children.
Making people go into the office is a pay cut and climate crime. The perpetrators should be punished.
What a bunch of shit. I go to work every day because I like what I get to do and I need to be there. If I didn't like what I do or need to be there, fuck traffic. Fuck driving at all, and frankly, I didn't put my balls on the line to declare my love to the woman I married just to spend most of my life with some randos. I want to be home having all sorts of sex with her all the time possible for us to do that....but I do like the things I do. So honey, I'll be a little late but keep my couch warm okay?
Object permamence this, object permamence that...
In short, either yer liked or not, your effectiveness doesn't matter. If boss cannot molest you 1v1 or stalk your ugly mug, you are worthless.
Research is with me that they perceive employees at the office as more committed, promotion-worthy even though there’s no evidence for that. It’s just the people who are fine playing the ineffective corporate game.
Imo the problem is lack of structured evaluation systems that’s perpetuated by dinosaurs for managers, lazy and/or incompetent managers without context who don’t want structured evaluation systems, so they can keep stroking their egos instead of making the company perform better, wasting everybody’s time with this BS
Disgusting.
🤮
Sounds like advice I'd get from my Silent Gen parents, if they'd known what working from home was.
This sadly aligns with my company. Remote workers remaining from before the forced return to office can’t get a promotion unless they move to a city with an official office. This is actually the stated company policy, not an unspoken policy.
you don't need to leave your job in order to start looking for a new one, you know that, right?
Also, looking for a job while working puts you in a powerful position.
If I wanted my job to like this I would have become an actress.
I have no idea what office people do. From my research they sit in front of computers and write emails, frown at the occasional spreadsheet, and grow more irritated the more interaction they have to have with coworkers they don't want to copulate with.
They also get evasive and defensive when you ask them what their job title means.
If they can get paid to forward emails and avoid social interaction from home, thermodynamically, that seems more efficient. To me, at least.
Worked on both sides, some people are just email coordinators but often times what's actually happening in the office is planning. I've worked in manufacturing so the planning is forming contracts with suppliers for raw materials, planning the logistics of getting those raw materials from the supplier to the plant, scheduling time for PMs, scheduling people's shifts to process the raw materials, negotiating with customers, planning the logistics of getting the finished goods to your customers, ensuring compliance with governing body's, arbitrating employee grievances, ensuring that you're meeting the requirements of the industrial insurance policy, develop improvements to the processes, ensure compliance with corporate, audit the systems for improvement, maintain health and safety, manage budgets for literally everything the company does, and that's just off the top of my head. A good office in manufacturing at least isn't noticeable because everything is done and ready for production when they need it.
I can't work remote because sometimes I have to work on physical servers but when I am in the office, I am the only person in the building half the time so I mostly play games on my personal laptop or shitpost online.
Heehee this reads perfectly like a monologue from "Resident Alien" :D
The "Nobody connects it to the four days.. But you do" can also be a subtle "it's all always been in your head and nobody else is thinking like this"
I am also in the same boat. But will quit in few weeks. On year 4
I love in office. Remote only are babies.
Good for you. In the end however, I think the important thing is choice.
I mostly agree. Optimally I think being mostly in office while having flexibility as needed is best. Honestly - working vacations should be more normal. Example, during corona I would a couple of times a year spend close to a month in other cities working and then having fun on my time. I am thankful to have a good tech job that I could pull that off. But travel to another place for a period of time and work remote in a place you can explore.