The Supreme Court Will Decide Whether ICE Can Hold People Indefinitely. We Should All Be Worried.
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Comments152https://www.yahoo.com/news/politics/articles/supreme-court-decide-whether-ice-094000956.htmlOpen linkView original on lemmy.ca
Every time SCOTUS does this shit, they get one step closer to impeachments, and an expansion of the court.
I used to believe we should expand it to 13 seats, but I no longer hold that belief. Now I believe that we should expand it to 29 seats. SCOTUS is too important, it shouldn't be so small that one bad-faith president can manipulate the composition of the court so that he negatively impacts policy for the next 50 years.
29 justices, rolling term limits, so every Prez gets to appoint a few, but never enough to alter the steady progression of our society and history, with wild cultural and political swings.
If you can't even challenge the legality of your detention, then you don't live in a law-abiding nation. That leaves only one way to challenge the state and I guarantee they're not going to like it.
The constitution is quite clear on this...
6 of them are firmly stuck up trumps ass so you can set that question aside
I don’t even know why they bother pretending they have laws anymore. No one on the outside buys their bullshit and their loyal zombie hordes will bend over for any reason. It’s just a silly larp now.
The laws still exist for us, what you described is for the owner class
We still have laws.
The laws are whatever trump wants them to be, when he wants them to be them.
so like calvinball?
We have "contract law" now ... but no actual justice system.
Its time to scrap it and rebuild. Even the money is worthless now.
No justice under the Roberts court
In a 6-3 decision...
Nazi working their way around
The answer has always been no. Whoever's asking the court for this is who we should be worried about.
If this shit happens then none of us (citizens included) have due process. ICE can just say they suspect you're an illegal immigrant and lock you up forever. A lot of people seem to think that if you just show them the documents or prove that you're a citizen this won't happen. All they have to do is snatch you up. You typically see this line of thought from folks defending the current administration, like they believe if you rationally present your argument to authority they'll always agree.
Aren't there already cases where holding valid documents has had no effect?
yeah, they already deported US citizens.
There are already enough cases of people showing their papers to ICE and discovering that ICE don't care and aren't held to account. But the people supporting it tend to be the "pay no attention until it happens to me" type.
Mate, with respect, they don't give a fuck about the constitution nor civilians nor citizenship and have proven so multiple times.
No shit.
My point was we already lost due process I get that you're pissed and I don't blame you, I am too
Mom kinda thinks like this. I told her that no one should even be asked to prove their identity like that in public. She'd be more firmly on the right if my father isn't tempering her.
My retort to a lot of these people is to ask if they can prove their citizenship right now, on the spot.
They can't.
And like even if you could, do you really think that after handing over your passport/social security card/birth certificate that you still could?
I believe they will take your "papers" and lose them with a quickness.
My parents are reversed, with my mom tempering my dad’s conservatism. But it’s the same basic idea. My mom and I will be discussing whatever Government Atrocity of the Week^TM^ is making the news cycle, and my dad will basically go “good, I hope it sucks for {victim}. If they don’t like it, they can leave.”
Gee, and you wonder why I don’t ever want to hang out…
The answer is an emphatic no. This shouldn't even be a question that needs asked.
The only question to ask. Have you bitch slapped a republican today and if not why not?
Ooooh nice, so they’re effectively going to decide if they get to actually run concentration camps in an official capacity. Delightful.
Also, I don’t expect ICEatzgruppen to abide by the court order if it doesn’t go their way
Everything the Nazis did was legal under German law. They were meticulous about renewing the Enabling Act multiple times.
Emil Bove is the person that floated the idea that they simply not abide by the courts. Seems important for later.
Don’t worry the court will write out an instruction manual of loopholes and how to exploit the loopholes if they do rule against it
Trans people are next. They are trying to bring back psychiatric detention and calling Trans people mentally ill.
I'm not sure if transgender people or "antifa" is next. I think "antifa" because that allows them to classify any dissent about anything as supporting terrorism (NSPM-7 executive order). That would be more efficient at removing dissent, then when there's no way to speak out, they'll go after transgender, socialists, eventually gay/lesbian, anyone who's not white.
aka the Nazi's list of enemies
Yes but also anyone that doesn’t like Trump will be accused of derangement syndrome. We’re all on that list
You can already be found not criminally liable and be sentenced to indefinite psychiatric hold instead of prison.
Don't the US already hold people indefinatly in Guantanamo Bay?
Not endorsing the interpretation at all, but the idea with the people in Gitmo is that they were "combatants" from a "war" and were therefore prisoners of war and subject to a different set of laws. The whole point of putting them in Gitmo was to avoid the legal complications of the domestic American justice system.
Conversely, immigrants are, by definition, inside of the United States and therefore protected by American laws. At least that has been the case historically. The court is going to determine if that is in fact the case.
And yeah, we all need to be worried about an interpretation that being in America somehow does not place a person under the justification of the American justice system and all the rights and responsibilities that entails.
And Republicans have already tried calling this a "war" on illegal immigration so that we can treat them as enemy combatants.
The difference that still matters (for now) is that the US justice system applies in the United States, regardless of citizenship, war, or anything else.
Gitmo detainees were strategically never brought into the US. NSGB is a naval base that's leased from Cuba and is explicitly not territorial ground of the US, so detainees there are not protected by US laws, but the adversarial relationship with Cuba also keeps the host country's laws from applying.
It's pretty much the only place the US permanently controls where there are no civil protections at all for detainees.
The Constitution references "under the jurisdiction of the United States" so if they do rule that these people aren't entitled to Constitutional rights, I'm curious how that doesn't also mean that these people are immune from US laws too. You can't claim these people aren't protected by our laws while also claiming that they're subject to those same laws.
Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.
Historically "not under the jurisdiction of the United States" meant exactly what you think it meant. It meant that they were not subject to the laws of the US and was a status commonly called "diplomatic immunity".
I agree with your conclusion that people cannot be both immune from rights and subject to law, but sadly the courts have disagreed.
They won't claim it outloud but they already operate under this interpretation.
No, they purposefully avoided actual prisoner of war status, as that has legal consequences.
Thats only temporarily indefinitely
No one should get treated like this but additionally. What’s to stop them from grabbing citizens and claiming they can’t verify their identity and holding them indefinitely?
Literally nothing.
Well at some point the camps will become overcrowded and they'll want a solution that's a bit more final.
That's what all the industrial biowaste incinerators they've been buying are for.
My prediction is that SCOTUS will defy the Constitution.
arnt they already, and its not even likely they are instructed to listen the supreme court anyways. so its fair game if they get the same response.
Oh, you mean the treasonous Supreme Court?
Those Supreme Court Justices better not be ethnic. It could backfire big time.
Ethnic refers to a group of people who share a common cultural background, national origin, language, religion, or ancestry.
I expect most of the members of scotus would share a common cultural background.
What do you mean by that word ?
Racist people in the US use the word, in this context, to mean brown people.
I believe the comment was using it ironically
Ah, thanks. I'm not American and had not seen the word used as euphemism like that, so it was a very puzzling comment without that context.
You must have gotten the gist of what I was typing. If not, I'll leave it to you to interpret it any way you like. Thanks.
Time to allow the racists to do something else unethical because you could technically interpret a 250 year old document in a way that allows for that, even though everyone that's not a bigot knows what the decent decision should be and that document could be interpreted that way as well.
It's OK! The CONSTITUTION is CLEAR that this is Illegal and the Robert's Republican Supreme Court is KNOWN to UPHOLD the Constitution and NOT whoever gives them the BEST Vacation!
Your account on the other instance (world?) was wittier, it seems.
How is this even up for discussion? If they're legal permanent residents, they shouldn't be detained at all, and should have the right to sue if they are. Fucking hell, America. Get your shit together.
I'm thinking we should start banning yahoo.com from this commag. All that site does is copy from another site and attribute it so that we can't see what the actual publisher is from the domain. (You can see at the top here that the OG source is Slate.)
Sometimes it's useful because the original is paywalled.
yeah Im not a fan.
The fun part will be treating all these MAGA politicians the way they want everyone else treated.
JD Vance? Locked the fuck up without charges forever. Clarence Thomas? Locked the fuck up without charges. John Roberts, Drunken McRapey Kavanaugh? Locked the fuck up without charges.
No Habeas Corpus, no judicial review, no one to look out for their human rights, since they have no concern for anyone else's humanity.
You get the idea.
That will not happen with a Democrat in office. Still probably worth voting for them in the general for harm reduction. But don't kid yourself. The next Democratic president will appoint a Republican as attorney general and FBI head. Their cabinet will be half centrist Democrats, 1/4 progressive, and 1/4 Republican.
Putting faith in Democrats to bring justice to Republicans is literally believing in magic. It's completely divorced from history. You might as well put your faith in a literal angel coming down from heaven and personally hauling Trump kicking and screaming into Hell. Both events are equally likely.
FYI, As an American you can work on making the dream happen by hijacking primaries and the party conventions. It what the tea party did to get MAGA.
Want to put some money where your mouth is?
Because I have been getting people elected for longer than you've been alive, and I'm 100% certain you're wrong.
Ford and Carter let Nixon's crimes slide. Bush I and Clinton let Reagan's crimes slide. Obama let Bush II's crimes slide. And Biden appointed a Republican attorney general who initially refused to do anything, acceded only under Congressional pressure, then slow-walked things until Trump could run out the clock.
Again, Democrats are better in terms of general harm reduction, but it's like comparing two plagues. If you gave me the choice, I would vote for another big Covid pandemic over a global Ebola outbreak, but that doesn't mean Covid isn't still a plague.
We have three clear examples of cartoonishly corrupt Republicans committing crimes left and right. Dems are 0 out of 3.
I'm a scientist. I go buy the evidence observable to my eyes. I see Democrats are 0/3 for holding criminal Republican administrations accountable. That's the evidence I'm basing my conclusion on - actual historical observation.
Do you have any evidence you would like to bring up? Because all you've said so far is "trust me bro."
What you've posted are just...well, lies. Democrats can and do hold these fuckers accountable.
Reagan's administration saw 138 investigations leading to indictments, prosecutions, and yes, convictions.
Just from Iran Contra, these officials were all convicted or pleaded guilty: two different National Security Advisors, the CIA's Covert Ops lead, and 10 fucking CIA assets (including Ollie North.) We had the Sec Def dead to rights but Bush -- the family literally at the heart of the coup -- pardoned him ahead of his trial.
There was a HUD grant-rigging scandal where the Treasurer of the United States, the Secretary of the Interior and the two Assistant Secretaries and the fucking Assistant HUD secretaries all got convicted.
Reagan's Chief of Staff was convicted of lying to the Democratic Congress. Reagan's Press Secretary was convicted of illegal lobbying.
Go look now and there are like 3-4 other major investigations that led to Reagan-Bush officials getting convicted.
**How about George Bush? ** Lester Crawford (R) Commissioner of the Food and Drug Administration, pleaded guilty to conflict of interest and received 3 years suspended sentence and fined $90,000 (equivalent to $143,736 in 2025) (2006).
Scooter Libby (R) Chief of Staff to Vice President Dick Cheney (R), convicted of perjury and obstruction of justice in the Plame Affair on March 6, 2007, and was sentenced to 30 months in prison and fined $250,000 (equivalent to $388,180 in 2025).
David Safavian (R) Administrator for the Office of Management and Budget[130][131][132] After an overturned conviction and a retrial, he was found guilty of perjury,[133] and sentenced to 12 months (2008).
Robert E. Coughlin (R) Deputy Chief of Staff for the Criminal Division of the Department of Justice, pleaded guilty to accepting bribes relating to the Jack Abramoff Indian lobbying scandal (2009.)
Felipe Sixto (R) Special Assistant for Intergovernmental Affairs, convicted of misusing money. Sentenced to 30 months (2009).[135]
Scott Bloch (R) United States Special Counsel, pleaded guilty to criminal contempt of Congress for "willfully and unlawfully withholding pertinent information from a House Committee investigating his decision to have several government computers wiped...."
Sorry mate, but you're full of shit.
But in no case was the president imprisoned
I'm glad you can get excited at the prospect of a handful of cabinet members getting fined a fraction of the millions they enriched themselves by and getting handed 12-month sentences to be commuted while the people they imprisoned for political gain spend years in concentration camps. Where are the presidents on this list, by the way?
Your ignorant rant doesn't rebut a single goddamn thing I wrote.
The liar said that Democrats didn't hold people accountable and I proved that was a Montel Williams level lie. Now you're going to pretend to have some other conversation? Fuck that Charlie Kirk level of goalpost-moving bullshit. Be better, tankies.
I just think we have different definitions of what accountability looks like. Have a good day.
Sorry, I was talking specifically about presidents themselves.
So your response is to lie?
I guess you can drop the shtick where you pretend to be a neutral "just here observing" scientist lol. Fuck's sake.
Yeah I suppose that did get off the rails there. Forgot this all started with, "JD Vance? Locked the fuck up without charges forever. Clarence Thomas? Locked the fuck up without charges. John Roberts, Drunken McRapey Kavanaugh? Locked the fuck up without charges." The conversation did start with discussing cabinet officials. So, I suppose you're right in that regard. Somehow I interpreted it as president specifically.
You're a scientist who can't spell or use proper grammar?
BoTh SiDeS
In the last months of Biden's term he opened up several new ICE facilities, every president since 2001 has increased the funding and scope of ICE and DHS. The dems may be better in that when they are in charge they detain and deport people more subtly, but the corporate-aligned Dem leaders approve of what's happening now and haven't done anything meaningful to prevent it.
Believe it or not, I've also already heard the DeMoCrAtS ArE AcTuAlLy WoRsE line. Which is one of the major reasons we are here instead of complaining about how badly a, 90% better, Clinton-led America, sucks.
If they lose power (lol) they will, without a doubt, flee the country.
Yeah well... they're not getting me without a fight.
Get out of the US. . . . or get a rifle
Big family so very hard to leave. I've accepted I might go out fighting.
Recommend the AR over the AK then for now
3D printers are cool
Yeah, especially when used for DIY drones!
Well, all Americans anyway.
The rest of us are still worried, but slightly less so. We're mostly just worried about a rapidly destabilizing nation with the largest military on earth.
Why would only Americans be worried?
In the US, they especially target immigrants and other foreigners (as well as American citizens of color), and it's not like there isn't precedent of them operating outside of the US without the consent of the host nation.
Every time ICE is given more leeway, them operating worldwide with no restrictions gets closer to becoming reality.
Such Democracy!
Not perfect but sure is "best we can have", not.
The fact Americans are even entertaining this idea makes me unempathetic to they're plight. They're just letting this happen, you deserve to be debt slaves.
No one deserves that. What the hell, dude?
Yes they do, you have to fight to keep your freedom, that's what your forefathers supposedly did, now it's your turn.
Right. We're doing that. But because some of us aren't, we all deserve slavery?
You deserve it if your don't fight for it yes, 'wise one'.
Maybe in Trump's 1st term. The world has no sympathy for Americans anymore. Trump isn't the hero America needs, but he's the one they deserve.
You realize a lot of us specifically voted against this shit, right?
Yeah but far more voted for him... A minority of american are not nuts. Great news, change nothing.
So, are you going to stop the fascist rise with a vote, deluded, your just reinforcing my point. You think a vote will fix Donald? You, deserve, this.
So the victims deserve it, got it.
If they won't fight for themselves, YES.
You self victimizing loser
Imagine calling a minority in america self victimizing losers and thinking you're a decent individual.
america is probably the most mysogynistic, racist WESTERN right wing country. cant even tolerate a center right woman, nor color. plus they allow propaganda in the msms unabated, and are unable to discren from it.
Then stand up for yourselves, Americans are big-talking cowards, nobody is coming to save them from Donald but them.
They deserve it because they're not fight for they're freedom thinking theyre vote will actually matter at the end of the day and not have to fight of a far more competent coup. They can either put there money where their mouth is or shutup as for as I care, if they were defending themselves properly I'd be far more supportive. The french rioted for months when they raised retirement age by 5 years, Trump literally stripes away your rights and I see some week long protests and that's it. You'll get no simpathy from me give Id know they wouldn't do more then give a thoughts and prays were it the other way around.
Jeez, you must think China really deserves it then.
China did do a lot to deserve its situation yes, it was the peoples decisions to let the CCP in and take over, your point? Are you refering to their children rather then the original mistake maker, they're parents maybe?
Any article that tells me how to feel... I have to question the legitimacy of that article
Whatever.
Any Americans who aren’t planning to take direct action at this point deserve whatever they get. Keep doing whatever you’re doing, at this point you’re just a cautionary tale for the rest of us, you absolute goddamn self-absorbed cowards.
Where are you from? Because for someone who lives somewhere else you complain exclusively about America. Like only that. All of your posts are angry about about what’s happening here. Maybe YOU Should be less of a coward and quit fighting wars from the safety of your arm chair. You melancholy malcontent.
Say more. Really. It’s illustrative. Nobody understands why Americans are allowing this to happen- seeing you get shitty and defensive (and all following the same tired script for that matter) helps everyone see the problem more clearly.
Don’t hold back, now. Really whine and tell us how you’re doing your best and shouldn’t be held responsible because after all, you’re one of the “good ones.”
That’s the same response you give anytime anyone challenges you. You aren’t smarter than the whole world. You’re a troll nothing more, and everyone sees it. A melancholy malcontent. If you’re going to troll at least be interesting. I can’t suffer a bore. That’s what you are, an angry bore. And you have my pity.
I’m done with you. Feel free to fuck off to you’re next strain of meaningless complaints about people complaining meaninglessly.
A true hero of the arm chair.
I’ll give you your final reply before I block you. Just out of good form, but I won’t read it. I’ve read enough of you.
Coward.
You know, instead of complaining, why not get your government to stage an intervention and hold it over our heads forever.
No amount of me saying thst every J6er and cabinet member should be dragged into the street naked and shot on live TV will change the fact that noone listens when I say it or will follow commands i give
You can't will a fucking rebellion into being my dude. Its not that simple
You should all be rioting in the streets, but you're too fat and stupid to do it.
Username does not check out
It's ironic.
Like a death row hard on. Two minutes too late.
Just order extra sides for your last meal, should be enough time to crank one out over a ramekin of cole slaw.
Thank you for contributing to this thread, Nonconfrontational
Thanks Seth. Sometimes the truth is painful.
That'll convince them! Insult them! Be a literal piece of shit about it! That will definitely change things!
Just another terminally online ML ignoring material conditions and doing the woke scolding that libs love to do.
Libs love deepthroating trump cock. Schumer was holding back tears when he brought up a ceasefire. I'm saying take up arms and fight for your country. It's not my fault you fail to see the difference.
Problem. They outgun us. Other problem, they'd know immediately and just shoot the guy in charge. Other other problem, noone in any country touches grass enough to have real world friends to organize with
It's soooo haaaardddd :(
I'm just saying you could use theory to make a better argument then "libs eat cock". I believe in you
Why waste the energy?
Nothing else seems to be working.
Bullshit. Your entire comment history is just hatred and insults toward Americans. Zero room for understanding. No real suggestion from how you talk about them that you've even tried. You don't want to make change. You want a punching bag. You love that the US is coming apart at the seams. Nearly 5% of the global population and you just want them to burn as a society. 350 million people and you have it in your head that not a single one of them is even fighting. People protest every damn day but you're upset because you want to see blood.
You're a sick person. Front row seats for the gladiator show, angry that we're fighting missiles with words.
I honestly believe that most non-Americans are simply not capable of grasping just how large and populous this country is.
They comment from a tiny island they've never left, like Britain and think it must be similar here. Not realizing that it's a landmass the size of China with over 350,000,000 people. 50 different states with very different laws, broken into literally thousands of municipalities that also have their own laws...
They have no fucking context or perspective.
I hope that makes you feel better. Good luck when the shit goes down. Power to the people.
Yeah! Let me do that! Don’t go to my job so I can riot - someone else takes it so they can eat and pay their bills while I scream into the void in public. Lose my job immediately. Lose my house, my car, my health insurance. Can’t eat. Nowhere to sleep or wash myself or my clothes if I still have any, no other jobs to be had for months and months, maybe ever. No energy to even riot anymore. Damn, sucks that I’m too fat and lazy to get the ball rolling on this impeccable plan!!
Should have stayed home and watched DirecTV
Sure, fascism is definitely easier than that. Good luck, I guess.
A hyuk hyuk so helpful.
Don't fucking talk to us about fascism, we're living it every day.
The propaganda and surveillance apparatus that has been worked on since 2000 has made that possible. The liberals have been really good at dismantling protest and criticism of the government and rendering it moot.
Look up at the massive amount of bills being pushed to basically censor the entire internet.
Better act fast then.
I don't think we have a choice.
I know you don't. Good luck with the resistance.
Which country? I’m assuming one of the five eyes or seven eyes countries?
?
They asked what Five Eyes or Seven Eyes country you're from. Seemed pretty clear to me.
Oh, nah.