Resistive heaters still suck though because Heat pumps give you 200-400% efficiency. So heating wise, “100%” still less than maximally efficient.
(Not a violation of thermodynamics btw. Heat pumps use electricity to move heat energy that already exists, so the electric power in is often significantly smaller than the heat coming out of the device)
Having been on long term sick leave for 15 years means you have to do something with your time and I spend a lot of it learning new things to various depths.
I now understand why some (though not all) older people are angry: when you know a lot about a lot you see how bad many things are. There's so much inefficiency, shit design, shit quality, shit shit everywhere. It hard to not let it get to you.
His videos are why I got a heat pump water heater instead of a standard one when mine died. I figure in summer I can hook the exhaust duct up to my hvac and get a bit of free air conditioning out of it, since I don't have AC yet. Tiny extra bonus piped straight to my bedroom.
Yeah, that is a bit confusing, i never thought about light being an example of one of those systems. Edit: looks like this applies only to laser light because light has a temperature of an emitting body, and lazing body has negative temperature
::: spoiler my short interpretation would be like this
A system with negative thermodynamic temperature is hotter than any system with a positive temperature. If a negative-temperature system and a positive-temperature system come in contact, heat will flow from the negative- to the positive-temperature system.
This situation occurs because temperature is not really a measure of speed of particles, but rather a measure of entropy, and for ordinary objects entropy can increase infinitely, increasing temperature too. For systems with capped amount of states entropy reduces when energy is added, and that is negative thermodynamic temperature.
So negative temperature is more energetic than positive, and because of that it heats up positive temperature object when in contact.
Light kinda does that, but I am not sure I can come up with an explanation of how to measure its temperature and if it fits the definition
:::
Strictly speaking that's not efficiency, but a coefficient of performance.
And funny enough the work energy doesn't even have to be electricity. It's actually mechanical energy, that is required and you could even power a heat pump with a steam or diesel engine.
I love firing up my PC and gaming on cold winter nights. A well placed fan or two and I can spread it through my entire apartment and the heat won't kick on all night. Ends up saving me money, my heater costs way more than my PC to run.
By "well below" do you mean -30? Or do you mean -5? Either way, you must have much better insulation than I do, because I have multi-kilowatt heaters and even on not-so-cold days my poor PC can't compete, no matter how hard I game.
Like anywhere from -15 to -4 C (around 5-25 F). I also keep it around 15 C (60 F) in my apartment to keep heating costs lower so it doesn't need to get super warm to keep my thermostat from kicking on.
Yes, what is that motor doing? If it's a drill, it's spinning a drill bit and that drill bit generates a lot of friction when it tries to make a hole in something, and that friction generates heat. If it's spinning a tire, that tire generates a lot of friction with the road.
Indeed we’ve plugged in a bitcoin miner to our central heating and now heating is “free”. I’m not sure how profitable it is when you’re not using the heat though.
Like this is literally the 'modern problems require modern solutions' meme.
I've used older PC battlestations of mine as 'bonus' spaceheaters more than once, lol, sorta like those 'pocket warmer' apps for phones that would just run some absurd computation that would redline the cpu, hahah!
I had some frozen imitation crab legs that I wanted to eat, but didn't want to microwave proper. I put them on top of my PC's GPU radiator and ran a stress test while watching stuff so it would thaw faster without overheating.
I have a little "tradition" of doing a playthrough of very hardware-demanding stuff in winter. Tarkov is one of my favs for this since it's unoptimized as hell and the post soviet aesthetics really fit the season
I may get flack for this but mine was the Cinematic Mod version of HL2.
Not because I wanted ... the terrible 'cinematic' music, or ludicrous XXX character model 'upgrades'... I genuienly liked the revamped maps, greater texture detail.
Ah ok! I don't speak Dutch, but it looks like a kind of ... flakier, pastry style bread... honestly looks delicious!
Closest thing I've personally had to that would probably be a piroshki/pirogi, or maybe a calzone, but those both use more... bready breads, if that makes any sense, lol.
I'm not well-versed on this topic, but doesn't the AC frequency cause alternating fields in the heating element, making it vibrate slightly? If that's correct, then you're losing an incredibly stupidly tiny amount of energy as sound too.
There's a whole class of electric heater that do this intentionally. Radiant heaters are awesome for outdoor patios and other spaces like uninsulated garages where you care more about heating surfaces than the air itself.
I don’t know why but as much as I’ve read about radiant heaters to try understanding them your random comment I read here is what it took for things to finally click into place for me. I really love those ah ha moments. Just wanted to say thank you.
Most of the heating energy would actually be IR, which many types of window glass will be designed to reflect. It probably depends on what kind of coatings are used. Basically all car windows block IR to help keep the inside of the car cool in the sun.
It’s a silly thing, but if it glows orange, and if any of that orange light escapes or is visible from the window, it is not 100% efficient. But this is just pedantic in reality, even cheap heaters will do a good job of converting electricity into heat.
But a heater produces heat and light. The light might turn into heat later but that's not heat from the heater. Otherwise everything is s heater and it's all part of the same heater... the universe.
When light is absorbed by surface, the material temperature increases and remits light at a longer wave, ussually in the IR spectrum. So its safe to say all light is heat enegry.
Most thing you struggle to approach anywhere near 100% efficient, heating is a bit easier in that you can get a lot closer, but you’ll still hit limits before reaching 100%.
Saying inefficiencies are lost as heat is really a lazy simplification, inefficiencies are lost as anything
It just turns out that 95% of anything is heat, from entropies perspective.
My oil heater makes gurgling noises so that acoustic energy is lost. It would also just heat up the room eventually, but I usually have a window open in winter so a tiny bit is lost that way.
Remember: Every device is a smoke machine if you use it wring enough.
Also: Every electrical device is filled with smoke and the job of electricians is to stop the smoke from escaping, which would render the device useless.
Hehe yes, we called it "magic smoke" in the early days of my engineering studies. Devices run on magic smoke so they stop working if the magic escapes.
Why not? My underestanding is that 100% energy of a sound wave will ultimately be transformed to kinetic energy to particles in the room, be it a wall's, an ear drum's or air's.
As a rule of thumb that’s fine, but it’s not precisely true. There will always be a little energy going everywhere it can.
Entropy doesn’t mean “everything turns into heat” it means everything becomes dispersed across all the possible states. Most of the possible states are possible states of heat, so that’s where most of the energy ends up, but only most.
The chance that all the energy ends up as heat is similar to the chance that you turn on a heater and it heats up everything except for a small thermometer which stays mysteriously cold. Sure, most of the heat would be outside the thermometer, but you expect the thermometer to get its share of the energy. Equally you expect light and sound and gravitational potential and chemical to get their “fair share”, even if it’s a very small share.
Edit: I guess you could say all the energy would pass through heat at some point. That’s probably true, but equally you could say all the energy ends up as light at some point, and that’s probably true too, as it wobbles between possible states randomly. More usefully can ask what ratio ends up in each form before reaching a steady state (where the amount of sound turning into heat is equal to the amount of heat turning into sound)
Heat pumps generally come with an electrical resistive backup in case it's too cold outside, so even at arbitrarily low temperatures a heat pump can only drop to 100%
At that point, the heat pump is off and you're using a resistive heater. You can't just glue an LED to an incandescent lightbulb and call it a 50% efficient incandescent lightbulb.
True. You know, the moment I left that comment, I thought that was pedantic, I shouldn't have said it, but by that point if I had deleted it it would just sit there saying deleted forever and that would bother me even more
Heat pump could heat your house if it's near 0K "outside". Heat pumps are how we chill to near 0K anyways. And by heat pump I mean literally a window air conditioner. Replace the freon in your typical AC with helium and get a really fancy evaporator (cold head or cold finger is the trade term) and you could probably get a 10cc vial on the end to sub 70K. With vacuum and a bigger 240V window AC unit you can get near 4K. Running multiple heat pumps in stages and with liquid nitrogen as coolant for some of them and you can condense helium and push really close to 0K.
100% of the energy is converted to light, its just in the IR spectrum.
Unless u feed the heater with AC power then you are also generating magnetic fields/radio waves....but those are also just photons (light) with a very long wavelengh.....
Space heaters mostly heat by convective heating, where the heat energy is transferred from the element to the air molecules around it. This doesn't involve infrared radiation (though in practice it is involved because any object above 0 K radiates infrared).
Heat pumps move heat from outside to inside, and they use less energy than the amount that is brought into the insulated area, resulting in efficiency numbers over 100%. (less energy used than the amount brought inside was used to bring the inside energy levels up)
You're assuming this heater is on grid power. We just need to power it by solar panels that are inside the house, under a skylight. Now we've got a 100% efficient heater, just don't ask about PV efficiency...
Heat pumps move heat around, whereas radiators create it.
The "efficiency" of heatpumps relates to heat they import into a system for a given amount of power, compared to creating heat with that power. They are not generating that heat. They are moving it.
Similarly, it's much more energy efficient to use a wheelbarrow to collect ice and move it inside, than it is to make ice cubes in freezer.
I mean isn't this wrong? It may be near 100% but there's never 100% conversion to a single kind of energy. For example, even if it's just a tiny faction, magnetic field convert electrical energy to kinetic energy, no?
I guess we could also say that eventually that heat will escape outdoors and be radiated back into space, a tiny fraction of that will end up on the sun, and be sent back again.
Okay so the light bulb example can be wrong. My grandpa would heat his room with a 100 watt bulb meaning both the light and the heat were useful outputs.
Perhaps this is a dumb question, but perhaps it is not:
If you just had, in say a studio apartment, or a single bedroom, basically just a large container of water, where the container is made of something fairly to considerably thermally conductive...
Would or could this act as something like a thermal regulator for the room, to a potentially useful degree, such that it could ease the overall power usage of an AC/Heating system?
The water doesn't do anything, in like a designed machine sense; its not part of plumbing or heating, its just a big ole tank of water, sitting there.
The idea I am going with is something like how large static bodies of water act as regulators for nearby climate zones, through a day night cycle ... they tend to keep temperatures in the surrounding area a bit more stable, though of course humidity and the water cycle have other effects in a more open weather system.
I also realize there are a lot of potentially confusing or confounding variables at play here.
But my thinking is that maybe, at some scale, in some conditions, this could basically normalize your day-night temperature cycle, at least somewhat.
Obviously in real world, just a simple tank of water would potentially freeze in winter, or boil in summer, in more extreme environments, that you'd at bare minimum have to have some mechanical system to prevent problems... but uh, ... yeah.
You see this with normal heating systems. My house has hot air heating with a big burner and vents in the rooms. It is great for instant heat but once it turns off you lose the heat just as fast. And if you dont have a vent in the room it can be pretty cold.
But the house I grew up in had water filled radiators in every room. Took ages to warm up the house but it would transfer an awful lot of heat into the brick walls so it would stay warm for a really long time after the heating shut off.
So in the old house in winter you really didnt notice the heating turning on and off but in my new one it is painfully obvious. I really want to rip it out and get a better system.
I've seen someone do something slightly like this with a greenhouse. It had a large tank of water in the middle. It was black, so it absorbed sunlight during the day, heating the water, and then that kept the temperature up at night.
I think it also had something to do with an aquaponics setup? Like there were either fish in the tank, or in a "pond," and fish shit water would be cycled out to the plants because fertilizer?
Oh, I hadn't even thought of that. I always thought stoves were just way more efficient, but a giant old school hearth-thing actually makes a lot more sense now.
Something you'll forever see now: In the United States, homes in the North have inboard chimneys and hearths. The brickwork is inside the walls for better heating in the winter. Homes in the South have outboard chimneys, so that you can cook in the summer without dying of heat stroke.
So a bunch of the other comments have mentioned this but you would be creating a thermal battery essentially. These can be useful for smoothing out the temperature changes in that room but it isn't exactly efficient since the only way to heat or cool it is by changing the temperature at the surface of the container.
Adding passive heat sinks like radiator fins would increase the efficiency as it would absorb or diffuse the temperature difference with increased surface area but it would still would be subject to things like the air conditioning turning on and off more regularly when there is a higher ambient temperature delta or condensation when the weather is hot and moisture is high. You've essentially added an inactive water boiler tank in the middle of a room that takes up space and takes a long time to either heat up or cool down and it still would be lagging behind where you want the temperature to be.
You're on the right track to a good idea with trying to store thermal energy but it can be made better with a few tweaks:
Let's make the tank part of an active system by adding pumps and a heat exchanger that integrates with your current air duct system (assuming you have one). We can heat and cool the tank directly instead of passively so that our time and energy is directed more efficiently.
Insulate it so that we minimize any unwanted heat changes
Move it to a utility room or outside so you aren't taking up room space
Now we have a thermal battery that works with your air conditioning system as opposed to against it. This can be paired with other methods of heat/cooling such as a solar system.
But if you're in a dorm or somewhere you can't make changes, it could make sense if you aren't paying for electricity, you actively heat/cool the bucket by putting it in a freezer or on a heater/fire, and you don't mind a large metal container in the middle of the room? Just watch for a lot of condensation when cooling the air.
Honestly, not even that deep can used for geothermal. You can dig 6 feet deep for a horizontal ground loop in most places and still be completely usable for a ground source heatpump.
I don’t think it’s a dumb question at all. I’m not a physics person but I think what you’re describing is a thermal battery. It’s the reason people put tiles in their ovens for smoothing out hot and cold spots and moderating temperature swings from the oven cutting on and off or opening the door.
Secondary thought! What if you attached a bunch of processor heat sink type fins to the mass? Might not be good for long term regulation, but it would smooth out temperature curves daily.
I'm not an expert but, would it be that one kind of energy can't be 100% transformed to just one other kind of energy? That in any translation the result is always more than one kind of energy?
Yeah, this is why it makes me irate that my oven automatically turns off the light when I open the door. If the oven is on, let me turn off the light if I want it off. The light and the “waste” heat from the light are both useful.
Odd design choice. My oven turns the light on when the door is opened (in addition to a manual option). Maybe somebody "repaired" your oven at some point and replaced the door switch for the light with the wrong type? I had to be aware of this when I replaced a similar switch connected to a relay that turned a light on in a closet when you opened the door. I don't remember the specific jargon at the moment, but it boiled down to whether or not the switch was open or closed by the action of depressing the switch. I think the language might have been something like normally open or normally closed.
I should have said it’s on when open, but turns off every time I close it whether the oven is on or not. So if I’m baking and turn on the light when I'm preheating, then I open the door to put the food in and close it to cook it, the light is then turned off automatically. Then I need to turn it back on, so I can keep an eye on things. And if I have to open the door during the baking process—like to flip something—it’s turned back off again when I close the door, and I have to turn it back on again.
I’d have no problem if it’s this when the oven was off. But when it’s on, it’s pointless.
Most of the light from a heater is infrared light though, which is absorbed as heat by the surroundings. But yeah a small percentage will be lost as some other wavelengths that might not be absorbed by anything, so it's not technically 100%, unless you round to 2sf 😅
Forgive me for being argumentative, not my intention to be combative but now that I'm thinking more about it, isn't everything a 100% efficient heater? Like sound hits an object, and is turned into heat. Light hits an object and is turned into heat. Electricity travels down a wire and is turned into heat(usually).
Unless your heater's cable is ridiculously long, it'll be in the right area. The wires in the wall aren't part of the heater and don't factor into its efficiency.
Don't you plug your 50 meter long cord in outside, run it though all the stuff you never want hot and then into the window to run your space heater? I mean if you are heating a room, why would the plug be in that same room?
Fine for electrical efficiency, but in terms of fuel efficiency I can get into an odd situation where I burn the same amount of (say methane) gas in my room, vs in a remote power station (where we might assume any heat losses are not useful). I could end up getting more useful heat out of the same fuel using a nominally less efficient gas heater vs an electric one.
Resistive heaters still suck though because Heat pumps give you 200-400% efficiency. So heating wise, “100%” still less than maximally efficient.
(Not a violation of thermodynamics btw. Heat pumps use electricity to move heat energy that already exists, so the electric power in is often significantly smaller than the heat coming out of the device)
Did someone say heat pumps?
I'm so happy this man nerded out about heat pumps for a few hours.
But now, all I see is inferior heaters.
It's the burden of knowledge
Having been on long term sick leave for 15 years means you have to do something with your time and I spend a lot of it learning new things to various depths. I now understand why some (though not all) older people are angry: when you know a lot about a lot you see how bad many things are. There's so much inefficiency, shit design, shit quality, shit shit everywhere. It hard to not let it get to you.
And as things degrade you remember how it was.
And this one is….. 1600 watts. Surely this “large” room heater will be……. Siiiixxxxteen hundred watts.
Who is that? I love heat pumps too and would happily listen to someone talk about them for hours
boy are you one of today's lucky 10,000!
What do you mean lucky 10,000?
https://xkcd.com/1053/
Search YouTube or revanced or whatever other free service for Technology connections, also the alt channel Technology Connextras.
I watched his video on renewable energy and it was awesome. That ending was very unexpected but he killed it. Thanks for the info
Gracias
This man managed to make a 30 minute video about door stoppers that I watched to the end
.......HOURS???
Bro's got multiple, hour+ long, videos about various types of heat pumps.
And somehow im riveted. Doesn't feel like droning on. I wish I could communicate like him.
The amazing ability of a Midwestern to talk about the most mundane shit for hours and not lose you is a magic super power.
Hours of videos about dishwashers too
He videoed about dishwashers so hard he's got his own line of dish detergent now.
I'm so happy he's become an internet phenomenon that warrants reaction images now lol
This man taught us that heaters are indeed about as efficient as you can get in turning energy into heat through a little thing called resistance.
Hey that's the guy I see once a year at Christmas time!
Coming down your chimney?
No he'll be criticizing your choice of Christmas string lights, or lack thereof.
His videos are why I got a heat pump water heater instead of a standard one when mine died. I figure in summer I can hook the exhaust duct up to my hvac and get a bit of free air conditioning out of it, since I don't have AC yet. Tiny extra bonus piped straight to my bedroom.
I came here to see a picture of this man.
Name? Favorite link?
TechnologyConnections yt channel. I see his video on dishwashers mentioned a lot.
One is not directly beneath the other. Both have their place.
Fair enough, do we need to extend this heater solidarity to combustibles as well?
I mean technically they’re infinitely electrically efficient if you don’t use electricity to start them lol
For niche cases like when you're on a camping trip and made a campfire
They're not 100% either, they make noises and emit light. That's loss
well considering everything over 0K emits light I guess there really is no 100% efficient electric machine
And that light? Albert Einstein.
Isn't light heat?
No, but you can use some forms of "light" to heat things
If you want confusing specifics, light has negative absolute temperature
Yeah, that is a bit confusing, i never thought about light being an example of one of those systems. Edit: looks like this applies only to laser light because light has a temperature of an emitting body, and lazing body has negative temperature
::: spoiler my short interpretation would be like this
A system with negative thermodynamic temperature is hotter than any system with a positive temperature. If a negative-temperature system and a positive-temperature system come in contact, heat will flow from the negative- to the positive-temperature system.
This situation occurs because temperature is not really a measure of speed of particles, but rather a measure of entropy, and for ordinary objects entropy can increase infinitely, increasing temperature too. For systems with capped amount of states entropy reduces when energy is added, and that is negative thermodynamic temperature.
So negative temperature is more energetic than positive, and because of that it heats up positive temperature object when in contact.
Light kinda does that, but I am not sure I can come up with an explanation of how to measure its temperature and if it fits the definition :::
Strictly speaking that's not efficiency, but a coefficient of performance.
And funny enough the work energy doesn't even have to be electricity. It's actually mechanical energy, that is required and you could even power a heat pump with a steam or diesel engine.
God I spent too much time arguing with people who say that heat pumps are >100% efficient...
Every electric device is a heater. Some just do other things too.
A brushless motor only converts ~5% of its input to heat. That's low enough that you can reasonably call it a side effect.
Now, a computer, that's a heater that happens to produce math as a side effect. 100% of its input ends up as heat.
That's a funny way of spelling porn
Fun fact! Your porn machine can also be used to shitpost.
I love firing up my PC and gaming on cold winter nights. A well placed fan or two and I can spread it through my entire apartment and the heat won't kick on all night. Ends up saving me money, my heater costs way more than my PC to run.
Sounds like your cold winter nights are not very cold.
It goes down well below freezing here. My apartment is small.
By "well below" do you mean -30? Or do you mean -5? Either way, you must have much better insulation than I do, because I have multi-kilowatt heaters and even on not-so-cold days my poor PC can't compete, no matter how hard I game.
Like anywhere from -15 to -4 C (around 5-25 F). I also keep it around 15 C (60 F) in my apartment to keep heating costs lower so it doesn't need to get super warm to keep my thermostat from kicking on.
It all becomes heat eventually in the end though. Sometimes it's just a multi step complex process outside the physical bounds of the heater.
Wait a sec, is the universe just God's space heater?
Depends on the god.
In god’s universe it is winter and that’s why the earth is heating up. It says so right in Ecclesiasties. Boom, toasted climate change nerds.
Yes, what is that motor doing? If it's a drill, it's spinning a drill bit and that drill bit generates a lot of friction when it tries to make a hole in something, and that friction generates heat. If it's spinning a tire, that tire generates a lot of friction with the road.
It might output the results of a computation once in a while though
Main effect of a brushless motor is moving matter really fast, which, on a molecular level, is same as heating it.
if you dont count powering i/o devices (other heaters) (or electromagnetic wave emmiters so heaters with extra steps)
Indeed we’ve plugged in a bitcoin miner to our central heating and now heating is “free”. I’m not sure how profitable it is when you’re not using the heat though.
Also a question of optimizing its use
100% efficient!!! You're using all the energy to do meaningful work!
Setup sponsored by Cyberpunk 2077: Ultimate Edition, to have a real toasting effect.
A completely valid pannini press, imo.
Like this is literally the 'modern problems require modern solutions' meme.
I've used older PC battlestations of mine as 'bonus' spaceheaters more than once, lol, sorta like those 'pocket warmer' apps for phones that would just run some absurd computation that would redline the cpu, hahah!
I had some frozen imitation crab legs that I wanted to eat, but didn't want to microwave proper. I put them on top of my PC's GPU radiator and ran a stress test while watching stuff so it would thaw faster without overheating.
I have a little "tradition" of doing a playthrough of very hardware-demanding stuff in winter. Tarkov is one of my favs for this since it's unoptimized as hell and the post soviet aesthetics really fit the season
I may get flack for this but mine was the Cinematic Mod version of HL2.
Not because I wanted ... the terrible 'cinematic' music, or ludicrous XXX character model 'upgrades'... I genuienly liked the revamped maps, greater texture detail.
I waited until winter to rip my DVD collection because it meant hours of high throttle on the PC.
That's sausage-bread though
Oh.
Sorry, I'm... actually unfamiliar with concept.
Is that basically a sausage with a small loaf of bread baked around it?
Sorry it's a sausage roll in English; it's called sausage bread in Dutch
https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saucijzenbroodje
Ah ok! I don't speak Dutch, but it looks like a kind of ... flakier, pastry style bread... honestly looks delicious!
Closest thing I've personally had to that would probably be a piroshki/pirogi, or maybe a calzone, but those both use more... bready breads, if that makes any sense, lol.
noo get the oily greasy food away from technology 😭
The resulting grease fire will increase the electrical power->heat conversion calculation to over 100%!
We need you to get on the Haron collider asap
What are you, afraid of fire? This is progress. Cavemen were bold and progressed.
GAH! Unless you personally disinfected them and wiped them clean of disinfectant, GAH! Know how many people play footsie with those?
... Some people keep track of their power bricks and know where they've been.
... Never thought 'good cable management' would become a hygiene/sanitation issue, but, apparently it is.
Not me. I leave my power bricks at the bus station and tell them don't call until you have daddy's money.
... so... you're saying I can rent a power brick from you?
I'm not well-versed on this topic, but doesn't the AC frequency cause alternating fields in the heating element, making it vibrate slightly? If that's correct, then you're losing an incredibly stupidly tiny amount of energy as sound too.
Even sound energy eventually ends up as heat, though!
And that satisfying glow is losses as light, which will do some heating, but not as efficiently
There's a whole class of electric heater that do this intentionally. Radiant heaters are awesome for outdoor patios and other spaces like uninsulated garages where you care more about heating surfaces than the air itself.
I don’t know why but as much as I’ve read about radiant heaters to try understanding them your random comment I read here is what it took for things to finally click into place for me. I really love those ah ha moments. Just wanted to say thank you.
Unless it is visible to the window at which point the light escapes and doesn’t heat your house 100% efficiently
Most of the heating energy would actually be IR, which many types of window glass will be designed to reflect. It probably depends on what kind of coatings are used. Basically all car windows block IR to help keep the inside of the car cool in the sun.
It’s a silly thing, but if it glows orange, and if any of that orange light escapes or is visible from the window, it is not 100% efficient. But this is just pedantic in reality, even cheap heaters will do a good job of converting electricity into heat.
Isn't some energy still dissipated as light instead of heat?
Which travels to a location, hits it and is eventually converted to heat.
So not a heater...but the universe.
Typically a heater is in a room, so any light doesn't need to go further than the nearby walls
But a heater produces heat and light. The light might turn into heat later but that's not heat from the heater. Otherwise everything is s heater and it's all part of the same heater... the universe.
When light is absorbed by surface, the material temperature increases and remits light at a longer wave, ussually in the IR spectrum. So its safe to say all light is heat enegry.
Isn't there also visible, non heating light coming off them.?
I think that light also becomes heat again once it strikes a surface
Mostly, but not entirely.
Most thing you struggle to approach anywhere near 100% efficient, heating is a bit easier in that you can get a lot closer, but you’ll still hit limits before reaching 100%.
Saying inefficiencies are lost as heat is really a lazy simplification, inefficiencies are lost as anything It just turns out that 95% of anything is heat, from entropies perspective.
If all became heat upon striking a surface that would make lighting anything pretty impossible and most would be dark.
My oil heater makes gurgling noises so that acoustic energy is lost. It would also just heat up the room eventually, but I usually have a window open in winter so a tiny bit is lost that way.
What about a combination heater/lamp where the lamp part is just incandescence
Yep, every electric device is a toaster, some are just super inefficient at it.
Remember: Every device is a smoke machine if you use it wring enough.
Also: Every electrical device is filled with smoke and the job of electricians is to stop the smoke from escaping, which would render the device useless.
The correct technical term is magic smoke.
Today I learned
Hehe yes, we called it "magic smoke" in the early days of my engineering studies. Devices run on magic smoke so they stop working if the magic escapes.
Noise would be a small but non-zero form of heat loss that shouldn't contribute to temperature increase
Noise would turn in to heat as it’s absorbed, so it’s just heat with extra steps. Same deal with lights
The entropy machine has a 100% efficiency
Does it make any sound?
Yup, that little buzz / hum is technically lost energy
Well, if you want to go all “technically” on this, then that sound technically dissipates as heat when it is absorbed by the interior of the room.
Some of it does. Most of it even, but not all of it
Why not? My underestanding is that 100% energy of a sound wave will ultimately be transformed to kinetic energy to particles in the room, be it a wall's, an ear drum's or air's.
As a rule of thumb that’s fine, but it’s not precisely true. There will always be a little energy going everywhere it can.
Entropy doesn’t mean “everything turns into heat” it means everything becomes dispersed across all the possible states. Most of the possible states are possible states of heat, so that’s where most of the energy ends up, but only most. The chance that all the energy ends up as heat is similar to the chance that you turn on a heater and it heats up everything except for a small thermometer which stays mysteriously cold. Sure, most of the heat would be outside the thermometer, but you expect the thermometer to get its share of the energy. Equally you expect light and sound and gravitational potential and chemical to get their “fair share”, even if it’s a very small share.
Edit: I guess you could say all the energy would pass through heat at some point. That’s probably true, but equally you could say all the energy ends up as light at some point, and that’s probably true too, as it wobbles between possible states randomly. More usefully can ask what ratio ends up in each form before reaching a steady state (where the amount of sound turning into heat is equal to the amount of heat turning into sound)
Even if the heater's energy partially is not wasted by a sound, it certainly is by generating magnetic field.
A heat pump will drop to 100% efficiency in cold enough weather.
Can heat pumps drop below 100%?
They can drop all the way to 0 if the temperature difference is high enough. You can't heat your house with a heat pump if it's 0K outside.
Heat pumps generally come with an electrical resistive backup in case it's too cold outside, so even at arbitrarily low temperatures a heat pump can only drop to 100%
At that point, the heat pump is off and you're using a resistive heater. You can't just glue an LED to an incandescent lightbulb and call it a 50% efficient incandescent lightbulb.
True. You know, the moment I left that comment, I thought that was pedantic, I shouldn't have said it, but by that point if I had deleted it it would just sit there saying deleted forever and that would bother me even more
I usually issue retractions by just putting a strikethrough on the text of the comment (using double tildes [~~] on each side).
Wait. Hold my beer.
Heat pump could heat your house if it's near 0K "outside". Heat pumps are how we chill to near 0K anyways. And by heat pump I mean literally a window air conditioner. Replace the freon in your typical AC with helium and get a really fancy evaporator (cold head or cold finger is the trade term) and you could probably get a 10cc vial on the end to sub 70K. With vacuum and a bigger 240V window AC unit you can get near 4K. Running multiple heat pumps in stages and with liquid nitrogen as coolant for some of them and you can condense helium and push really close to 0K.
Software engineers fixing a prod-down bug on Friday afternoons operate at 100%
Thanks for giving me flashbacks I didn't know I had
Is a heating element actually 100% efficient, though?
Some of the energy is converted to light.
100% of the energy is converted to light, its just in the IR spectrum.
Unless u feed the heater with AC power then you are also generating magnetic fields/radio waves....but those are also just photons (light) with a very long wavelengh.....
Space heaters mostly heat by convective heating, where the heat energy is transferred from the element to the air molecules around it. This doesn't involve infrared radiation (though in practice it is involved because any object above 0 K radiates infrared).
You reminded me of a certain video (or videos?) on quantum fields that I watched a few months back. Truly fascinating subject.
Which unless it goes out through a window would eventually be turned into heat anyway, right?
Yeah it's still thermal radiation, us being able to see it isn't a disqualifier :p
Heat pumps move heat from outside to inside, and they use less energy than the amount that is brought into the insulated area, resulting in efficiency numbers over 100%. (less energy used than the amount brought inside was used to bring the inside energy levels up)
https://www.cnet.com/home/energy-and-utilities/a-heat-pump-is-more-than-100-efficient-yes-really-heres-how/
induction losses:
Power-line losses before your house, so a electric heater is only 96%-85% effecient. When the heating for bird feets is accounted, it's 100%.
Blaming the heater for losses in the power lines doesn't seem fair.
You're assuming this heater is on grid power. We just need to power it by solar panels that are inside the house, under a skylight. Now we've got a 100% efficient heater, just don't ask about PV efficiency...
Well it is heat. If we count power lines as part of an electric heater I'd say that's still effective.
Unless it makes a noise or a light that escapes the house
what if you're running it directly from a generator?
If the generator is inside the house, 100%. But then you could just burn the fuel...
What about heat pumps they have efficiency in the range of 200-300%
Heat pumps move heat around, whereas radiators create it.
The "efficiency" of heatpumps relates to heat they import into a system for a given amount of power, compared to creating heat with that power. They are not generating that heat. They are moving it.
Similarly, it's much more energy efficient to use a wheelbarrow to collect ice and move it inside, than it is to make ice cubes in freezer.
No way a teacher wouldn't know this!
I mean isn't this wrong? It may be near 100% but there's never 100% conversion to a single kind of energy. For example, even if it's just a tiny faction, magnetic field convert electrical energy to kinetic energy, no?
100% of that tiny fraction still returns to heat.
Ah so we count following convertions. That clarifies things, thx.
I guess we could also say that eventually that heat will escape outdoors and be radiated back into space, a tiny fraction of that will end up on the sun, and be sent back again.
Okay so the light bulb example can be wrong. My grandpa would heat his room with a 100 watt bulb meaning both the light and the heat were useful outputs.
Perhaps this is a dumb question, but perhaps it is not:
If you just had, in say a studio apartment, or a single bedroom, basically just a large container of water, where the container is made of something fairly to considerably thermally conductive...
Would or could this act as something like a thermal regulator for the room, to a potentially useful degree, such that it could ease the overall power usage of an AC/Heating system?
The water doesn't do anything, in like a designed machine sense; its not part of plumbing or heating, its just a big ole tank of water, sitting there.
The idea I am going with is something like how large static bodies of water act as regulators for nearby climate zones, through a day night cycle ... they tend to keep temperatures in the surrounding area a bit more stable, though of course humidity and the water cycle have other effects in a more open weather system.
I also realize there are a lot of potentially confusing or confounding variables at play here.
But my thinking is that maybe, at some scale, in some conditions, this could basically normalize your day-night temperature cycle, at least somewhat.
Obviously in real world, just a simple tank of water would potentially freeze in winter, or boil in summer, in more extreme environments, that you'd at bare minimum have to have some mechanical system to prevent problems... but uh, ... yeah.
You see this with normal heating systems. My house has hot air heating with a big burner and vents in the rooms. It is great for instant heat but once it turns off you lose the heat just as fast. And if you dont have a vent in the room it can be pretty cold.
But the house I grew up in had water filled radiators in every room. Took ages to warm up the house but it would transfer an awful lot of heat into the brick walls so it would stay warm for a really long time after the heating shut off.
So in the old house in winter you really didnt notice the heating turning on and off but in my new one it is painfully obvious. I really want to rip it out and get a better system.
I've seen someone do something slightly like this with a greenhouse. It had a large tank of water in the middle. It was black, so it absorbed sunlight during the day, heating the water, and then that kept the temperature up at night.
I think it also had something to do with an aquaponics setup? Like there were either fish in the tank, or in a "pond," and fish shit water would be cycled out to the plants because fertilizer?
Sounds like adobe sorta.
Lots of places in the desert with big walls.
Large brick/stone fireplace+chimneys do similar in colder climates, holds heat in the winter and stays cooler in the summer.
Oh, I hadn't even thought of that. I always thought stoves were just way more efficient, but a giant old school hearth-thing actually makes a lot more sense now.
Something you'll forever see now: In the United States, homes in the North have inboard chimneys and hearths. The brickwork is inside the walls for better heating in the winter. Homes in the South have outboard chimneys, so that you can cook in the summer without dying of heat stroke.
So a bunch of the other comments have mentioned this but you would be creating a thermal battery essentially. These can be useful for smoothing out the temperature changes in that room but it isn't exactly efficient since the only way to heat or cool it is by changing the temperature at the surface of the container.
Adding passive heat sinks like radiator fins would increase the efficiency as it would absorb or diffuse the temperature difference with increased surface area but it would still would be subject to things like the air conditioning turning on and off more regularly when there is a higher ambient temperature delta or condensation when the weather is hot and moisture is high. You've essentially added an inactive water boiler tank in the middle of a room that takes up space and takes a long time to either heat up or cool down and it still would be lagging behind where you want the temperature to be.
You're on the right track to a good idea with trying to store thermal energy but it can be made better with a few tweaks:
Now we have a thermal battery that works with your air conditioning system as opposed to against it. This can be paired with other methods of heat/cooling such as a solar system.
But if you're in a dorm or somewhere you can't make changes, it could make sense if you aren't paying for electricity, you actively heat/cool the bucket by putting it in a freezer or on a heater/fire, and you don't mind a large metal container in the middle of the room? Just watch for a lot of condensation when cooling the air.
Move it deep underground, congtats you just invented geothermal 😁
Honestly, not even that deep can used for geothermal. You can dig 6 feet deep for a horizontal ground loop in most places and still be completely usable for a ground source heatpump.
Congrats, you've invented a radiator.
I don’t think it’s a dumb question at all. I’m not a physics person but I think what you’re describing is a thermal battery. It’s the reason people put tiles in their ovens for smoothing out hot and cold spots and moderating temperature swings from the oven cutting on and off or opening the door.
Useful? No, mainly because you need circulation of the air to feel it.
I didn't downvote you, but:
Ok, then... have a ceiling fan above it?
A very slow one, that uses little energy?
No need to apologize for someone else. But I appreciate the thought.
And you are absolutely right. A ceiling fan, plus a thermal mass would work.
Secondary thought! What if you attached a bunch of processor heat sink type fins to the mass? Might not be good for long term regulation, but it would smooth out temperature curves daily.
Yes but then the downside is you have a giant porcupine that will draw blood, in the middle of the room, lol.
You could buff that out a bit though?
...?
Badges of honor are not so easily dismissed.
Yes but there might be nonmasochists in the household, guests, children, pets, etc.
Not everyone is defacto down with a blood sacrifice for the Omnissiah.
Very fair. I forget my selfishness on occasion. Thank you for reminding me that I am not the center of the universe.
I'm not an expert but, would it be that one kind of energy can't be 100% transformed to just one other kind of energy? That in any translation the result is always more than one kind of energy?
No, it just means there is at least some going into heat in thermodynamic processes. Inevitable with atoms jostling in macroscopic systems.
And in case of a heater, some energy is going to be converted into light and sound and probably other stuff that I don't know.
Those give off light. Still not efficient
Only if that light escapes through a window. Otherwise, it is heat.
Electronics teachers generally clarify "other than resistive heaters"
Yeah, this is why it makes me irate that my oven automatically turns off the light when I open the door. If the oven is on, let me turn off the light if I want it off. The light and the “waste” heat from the light are both useful.
Odd design choice. My oven turns the light on when the door is opened (in addition to a manual option). Maybe somebody "repaired" your oven at some point and replaced the door switch for the light with the wrong type? I had to be aware of this when I replaced a similar switch connected to a relay that turned a light on in a closet when you opened the door. I don't remember the specific jargon at the moment, but it boiled down to whether or not the switch was open or closed by the action of depressing the switch. I think the language might have been something like normally open or normally closed.
I assume they had a typo and said that the light goes off when they open the door, but they meant it goes off when they close the door.
I should have said it’s on when open, but turns off every time I close it whether the oven is on or not. So if I’m baking and turn on the light when I'm preheating, then I open the door to put the food in and close it to cook it, the light is then turned off automatically. Then I need to turn it back on, so I can keep an eye on things. And if I have to open the door during the baking process—like to flip something—it’s turned back off again when I close the door, and I have to turn it back on again.
I’d have no problem if it’s this when the oven was off. But when it’s on, it’s pointless.
The air around it will expand and move, too.
More fun than the losses from the heat glow… because can argue if that really is a loss or a feature
Or light.
Most of the light from a heater is infrared light though, which is absorbed as heat by the surroundings. But yeah a small percentage will be lost as some other wavelengths that might not be absorbed by anything, so it's not technically 100%, unless you round to 2sf 😅
Any resistance heater, but the most efficient ≠ the most cost effective.
What about electro-magnetic losses?
its the Potis Meme!
This kid is going places.
Not really, reality will hit him rather hard
Aren't computers damn near 100 percent efficient heaters?
No, they're damn near as power-efficient as electric space heaters though if I'm not mistaken, but these are not 100% efficient.
Forgive me for being argumentative, not my intention to be combative but now that I'm thinking more about it, isn't everything a 100% efficient heater? Like sound hits an object, and is turned into heat. Light hits an object and is turned into heat. Electricity travels down a wire and is turned into heat(usually).
It will still lose some energy on the wires.
As heat
Probably not heating what you want.
Unless your heater's cable is ridiculously long, it'll be in the right area. The wires in the wall aren't part of the heater and don't factor into its efficiency.
Don't you plug your 50 meter long cord in outside, run it though all the stuff you never want hot and then into the window to run your space heater? I mean if you are heating a room, why would the plug be in that same room?
Fine for electrical efficiency, but in terms of fuel efficiency I can get into an odd situation where I burn the same amount of (say methane) gas in my room, vs in a remote power station (where we might assume any heat losses are not useful). I could end up getting more useful heat out of the same fuel using a nominally less efficient gas heater vs an electric one.
Ah yes, clearly you should burn coal/natural gas/fissionable material in your home. Very reasonable.
In my country gas is about 2/3rds of residential energy consumption - maybe more than as a share of residential space and water heating.