Federal Bill Would Bring OS-Level Age Verification to the Entire U.S.
https://linuxiac.com/federal-bill-would-bring-os-level-age-verification-to-the-entire-us/Open linkView original on reddthat.com947
Comments334https://linuxiac.com/federal-bill-would-bring-os-level-age-verification-to-the-entire-us/Open linkView original on reddthat.com
There's NOTHING Safer than having the Epstein Class KNOW where Kids are and WHEN they're Home Alone!
-US Politicians!
Remember folks, age verification is personal identity verification.
💯 don’t call it age verification - that’s just what the unmasked scooby-doo villain is still hiding behind.
Well they could do it the right way where, for example, you go to your city hall to get a certificate of age where they check your ID. Then some cryptography happens so you only enter a public key from that certificate on a website or OS to verify your age.
The website or OS doesn’t check your ID. City hall doesn’t know your browsing history.
But I’m not fooling myself, that’s not the point of such a law.
no implementation of personal ID for internet access will ever be "correct."
Exactly. Digital ID verification is in no way comparable to physical ID verification.
incorrect.
Please do explain why you think digital id verification is indeed comparable to physical id verification.
That's not true. It's simple if all you actually want is age verification.
You go in to the government building and show your ID. Seeing you are 18 or older you get to go to another room where they don't check your ID, just give you a token saying the one holding it is over 18. Make the token like a FIDO key where you have a pin you set yourself.
There is an air gap between the validation and the token creation so there is no way to go from token to ID. You make the key use a pin so we consider it to be once usable by one person.
The issue is not about the technology. The issue is that we all know this has nothing to do with kids getting on porn sites.
Now you have trusted the user not to provide the PIN to another, and the implementation is no longer correct. You'd at least need to use biometrics to tie the key to the person.
You are changing the goal. The point of this is to provide THE USER with a solution where they don't have to give away their personal information to the Government or the 3rd Party site. We do not care about situations where users commit crimes as that means our focus is on the Government's needs which they would already have met by just implementing a "Show us your ID" solution.
Now you could make the pin be a biometric so it's physically connected to the user. But part of the solution needs to be that the token is not identifiable with the user. If I pull of my wrist band no one will know it was mine. If you throw out your token someone could go around testing everyone's fingers and find out it was yours.
Without ensuring that the key issued to one person is not used by another, the key does not prove the age of the user, and isn't that the whole point of the key?
no, the point of the key is to access infomatîon without giving away personal information.
Even a photo ID doesn't prove age. It just shows a record of what age the gov thinks someone is. They are still prone to forgery, misuse, etc. There isn't any actual method of showing someone's age so we can skip that part and focus on what the actual need of the user is, accessing a website while not handing over more personal information than is necessary.
Would these tokens be unique per website visit? Are they generated by the user or the government?
It can be a shared token. For example a cryptographic hash. There are many solutions for the problem of certifying a token while giving no traceable data.
In most solutions there would be the traceability of knowing "User X went to site Y and site Z" but never knowing who "User X" is. There have been solutions proposed that create site specific hashes where it becomes more difficult if not impossible to track a user across different sites. So it just depends on if this issue needs to be resolved or not.
Personally I would be fine letting every porn site I use know I've been to every other porn site. If you wanted to go somewhere that you don't want them to know, throw out your token and go get a new one.
Never say never there is ALWAYS a way to do things right. But our government is too stupid to do it. So it might as well be impossible. Kek
If it’s completely local I’m less worried than online verification.
I’m not uploading any age verification online. I’ll quit the internet first.
"Key questions remain unanswered, such as the definition of “operating system provider,” the type of verification required, the focus on major commercial platforms, and the potential scope beyond them."
I guarantee this bill is unenforceable. Cars, phones, traffic lights all have have computers with operating systems. All modern tech has an operating system of some sort. Also how do you even verify age? If my laptop is offline can I just not use it because it can't confirm my id? What about tech that never goes online but has an OS, like a calculator? I can't believe microsoft and apple are not lobbying against this. Who becomes liable if an "underage" person is accidentally given access or if access is denied to an "of age" person. I can just imagine an emt frantically looking for their driver's license so they can use the computerized defibrillator.
Microsoft is probably salivating at the idea of being the only legal OS provider.
Microsoft and Apple. The internet will only allow OSs from large American corporations.
I'd like to see the rest of the world say "fuck it" and carry on as before, leaving the Americans to censor themselves. But governments around the world are suddenly rushing to implement very similar terrible laws. It smells very coordinated.
Meta is funding a lot of the lobbyists pushing for age verification laws. Uncoincidentally, Meta both owns a stake in a company providing identity verification as a service, and serves to benefit from not having to moderate its own platforms.
Citizens United, folks. Because nothing says "freedom of speech" like collusion, bribery, and conflicts of interest!
And meta had a pretty big chance of just getting banned from being used by minors in places around the world, so it might not work out as hoped.
Yeah, governments all over are trying to implement the same shit, and I agree it's coordinated. Many governments are also looking seriously at stepping back from reliance on US big tech firms though. Not that homegrown oppression and surveillance is any better.
But you KNOW the masses will comply because they're told so. They don't want to break the law...
But don't some of these larger orgs fund Linux distros? Like Red Hat with Fedora?
It's like Secure Boot, but without any of those pesky self-signing workarounds.
It feels like a Mr. Smith Goes to Washington display would solve this.
Just bring everything that has an operating system in it into the room. Cars, boats, planes, construction equipment, tractors, factories, knock off game consoles, literally every server on the internet.
Show them the ridiculousness of this and maybe we’ll get dragged out by police and charged with contempt of congress
Don't give them even better ideas. To you it sounds ridiculous, to them it sounds like "we can ban people we don't like from using modern technology by invalidating their age verification"
Go ahead and ban the people who are literally running the infrastructure they’re using
Will the sysadmins in Congress need to verify their age to use a server?
Yes. Yes, they will.
“Sorry, no email for your octogenarian Senator. TrumpID is down”
Here ya go...
https://agelesslinux.org/hardware.html
Offline computing?!
But
Yes. The powers at be will stop at nothing to take more, and more, and more power away from you. This is human nature.
The problem comes when a public school's IT department is deciding whether to go with a FOSS option, or a commercial OS. As the IT team has full control over the FOSS OS, the school will be held liable as the OS provider. They will select a commercial OS to avoid liability under these idiot laws.
What is this argument? You and I both know they want this age verification at the OS level for personal computing devices: phones, tablets and computers, maybe watches.
Is this really what’s going to kill this law? Semantics?
Yeah, that's kind of what laws are all about
Yeah actually. A lot of laws get shitcanned into irrelevance due to being worded like shit on everything from the local to federal levels. That's not even getting into conflicts with pre-existing well worded laws or the constitution as a whole.
If it's worded badly enough it may even just be thrown out on first test due to being vague and too widely applicable. Just for example I drive a 2001 Toyota Tacoma it has an operating system because it's got an ECU, how the actual fuck would that interact with this law? Obviously the corporate answer is to force me to get a new car but the actual practical answer is that that isn't viable, so it's more likely the courts just gut an entire section of the law with one case. Keep up the gutting and sooner or later it'll end up defunct.
Rules being implemented and enforced by actual pedophiles
*Ruling class rapists.
Rapist class
Pedophile class
They cant even define an OS. Do i need a fucking login for my wifi fridge and toaster. Such a stupid ffucking law.
You can't open your fridge for beer until you verify your age.
Drink verification can...catch 22
Why does a fridge need to connect to the Internet? Or a toaster? Why does my toothbrush need Bluetooth?
OK, how about my surveillance cam? NAS appliance? My WiFi light controller? Network switch? They all run Linux.
Well now you have to provide ID to use any of those.
This is just another form of control and a potential verified data stream for governments/corporations/marketers.
How can you prove that internet traffic is a human and not a bot? ID verification.
How can you generate more user data? Force them to provide ID for every device that is connected.
Want to control piracy? Easy with OS level ID requirements.
Good luck, enterprise admins! Best wishes for the future
They will repurpose the same security chips that make digital payments and OS verification soon enough. Then you cannot bypass digital ID because it is on the hardware level.
Seems they are starting with software compliance to see who will voluntarily do their dirty work for them. Assume that M$ and App£€ will comply while making it difficult for smaller independent developers to comply thus removing any privacy options.
Same with Win11, force people to upgrade working tech because it lack hardware security chip support. Call it “anti-piracy” or “security updates” and force people to comply.
ms, google(android) and apple have already implemented this. it's waiting to go live. there was a discussion about it quite a while ago.
that's what this infrastructure is for. all of these bills are written with google/ms/apple accounts with subusers in mind.
California one doesn't even have language to let adults have a user legally...
ultimately I think it's apple/ms working with meta hoping to force people to use Thier software
No no, tell me more about the smart toaster actually...
Can it warm up a jelly donut and play Maroon 5? lol
Like everything on shodan basically? FFS
Okay, what is this bill actually saying?
That soon, you won't even be able to own most computers without registering it under a government ID?
Because that's fucking nuts.
Make guns connect to the internet and watch what happens then.
Your ammo is running low.
Would you like to subscribe to the Silver Ammo Monthly Supply plan?
Click here to watch an ad for one free bullet.
Amazon guns
#Writing prompt
Like JFC what a fiction concept! Oh wait you meant like to turn them on. I was imagining some loony toons shit.
Or track them if they are stolen
limit them to wifi range. Oh yea all realistic and logical things.
I was imaginging shooting people over dms
Old Mans War
LoRa
If only there were more support for reticulum.
I'm more interested in meshcore, which seems to take inspiration both from reticulum and meshtastic, but i've heard interesting stuff about reticulum.
I reckon that's the plan
The way things are going both with the hardware market and government over reach it won't be long until all we can own are thin clients that rent hardware from virtual servers. In less than 10 years we won't own our PCs and will have absolutely no privacy or anonymity online.
Palantir really wants it's fucking database.
All because Petey truly believes that there are demons living in the United States.
there are demons living in the USA. all Petey has to do to find the closest one... is look in a mirror.
No the sad truth is that Peter Theil is, in fact, human. A human that we are all capable of becoming.
You just have to make a billion bad decisions to get where he is now.
Peter Theil and Sam Altman are why "queer owned business" is no longer an interesting label to be.
Tim Apple as well
I didn't know, but I'm actually not surprised.
Nazis aren't human. they are evil given physical form.
No, they are human and they bleed the same. The irony is that they don't see the rest of us as human.
they need more summoning salts (full minor soul crystals)
The History of Superpower Implosion Speedrun World Records
He is right, demons live in US. They are in various Federal, State, Local and Corporate functions. For example current Federal government are all demons (pretty much) and all of ICE employees. Demon here is "spirit or lesser humanity" or simly said Inhuman individuals.
I keep seeing comments like this, and I just need to say, no Palantir doesn't have any database. It's a completely evil company that makes and sells surveillance software to governments and companies. Then the governments and companies have these terrible databases that they manage with the Palantir software.
Palantir themselves don't do any spying or data collecting. They sell tools so that others can do that. They absolutely take the blame, but I want people to understand what's actually happening.
Everyone in this comment section, you're just gonna take this? Its been time, but if this is what motivates you to throw bricks at politicians then lets go
They're too busy throwing bricks at Sam Altman's house 😂
If they were people of action, they wouldn't have Lemmy accounts.
Will giving my unwanted opinion about Linux help this dire situation?
Can't hurt
Hahahahahahahaha
Those violence inciting comments always read to me like "Hey, reply to me so you can be put on a watchlist"
Is there something that limits a person to a single lemmy account?
You know, to make that watchlist effective?
You access the Internet through a network owned by a corporation under the jurisdiction of a government, your ISP knows who you are and so your government knows who you are.
Both of our Lemmy instances are hosted by Hetzner, in Finland and Germany. Both instance's connections are proxied through Cloudflare, an American tech company.
Any one of these entities has the ability to track you to at least an ISP and potentially down to the nearest street intersection if you're using fiber/cable. And that ISP will have records linking your IP lease information to your identity, or at least the credit card/billing information that you provided.
The kind of people who would be putting you on a watchlist are not the kind of people who will be thrown off by simply changing usernames on social media.
Patience, probably.
Last I checked most of the instances had waiting lists and some sort of written answer application
squints at your username
Hit a nerve there lol
Take an upvoter because you speak the true true.
I'm having a hard time understanding how this is going to keep kids safe.
That's because it is never about the children.
The same way the next laws will keep kids safe. When you leave your front door, you will have to drop your pants so the TSA can check your asshole. It's necessary. You know. To keep kids safe.
/s
🤦♂️🤷♂️
Assprints are as unique as irises or fingerprints, and are bigger.
Reposted to death, but in case anyone new hasn't seen Smart Pipe yet:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJklHwoYgBQ
This is about protecting the entrenched players in the OS games; Microsoft, Google and Apple. The likely end play for all this is the erosion of personal computing so they can rent (and therefore control) all the compute available to you, so you don’t get uppity and think of running your own AI, which they believe will be as integral to everyday life as the internet is today.
Safe? Never. But it will help the pedophiles find more children online. Sickos!
Why would corporate billionaires and pedophile politicians want to keep kids safe? This has nothing to do with that.
I don't even understand safe from what? Seeing titties? That is not bad and needs to be part of any growing up human, we've been all thru this, and we clearly see what happens to people who don't/were banned from normal childhood. All sorts of freaks.
It helps the rich oligarchs track their child harem and broodmares and make sure nobody is infringing on their "rights" to treat people as property.
In the future, you'll be sentenced to 10 years hard labour for a contraband OS while children are raped openly at lavish parties.
Don’t want to compete with a potentially capable Linux? Pay the government to make it illegal!
There's already being work done to add an optional age-attestation in systemd.
And note that none of the laws proposed so far are actually verifying age, they're only requiring someone to enter it. That's attestation, not verification. Verification will be the next tightening of the screw.
They reverted the change and the Dev who made merge request got death threats.
Was it actually reverted? I saw the PR to revert the change, but last I checked it was closed and not approved
Maybe not. I heard it online.
Now do you see why I don't trust government?
Because it does things like this. And it's not just our US government doing it. The entire world is getting more and more authoritarian.
Government seeks power. Always. Which is why it must always be restrained.
Governments work for whoever acts like their bosses. The people don't act that way, and oligarchs do, so here we are.
I trust the government, in that a government elected by a moderately intelligent population won’t be doing this fuckshit.
The biggest problem is that human beings are, by and large, far too stupid. As one guy put it, too many fully-grown adults are falling for obvious games of Peek-a-boo. There are billions of people so stupid that there are birds with greater levels of intelligence and problem solving skills.
We could have a wonderful world with a government that genuinely works for the people but instead half of us are voting our lives away just to spite already-disadvantaged minorities and the other half is voting for centrists because they’re too scared of even moderately progressive politicians. And the whole time polls show us as generally quite left-leaning, even the “conservatives” but we aren’t clever enough to see the tribalism right in front of us.
Governments are representing their people, that’s the problem, and there’s also no solution that doesn’t itself devolve into authoritarianism almost immediately. The only thing I’m genuinely holding out for is that the leaded-fuel-poisoning theory is real and we all smarten the fuck up ASAP. Reality is screaming at us to figure it the fuck out.
Be kind to others, the game is rigged against them. Propaganda has never been stronger and its everywhere.
Just yesterday I saw a video discussing how private equities buy up YouTube channels to seemingly both squeeze them for their worth and/or use their trust to push an agenda. E.g. fern & veritasium stood out to me the most.
No, we're long past the point where not being able to think critically about the shit we're fed is acceptable. Misinformation has been rampant for decades. Anyone still swallowing it deserves all the criticism coming their way. People still buy into Trump's bullshit for fucks sake. Fuck em.
The propaganda is lazy and obvious. I will not demand that many of them being hanged in the street but I will not sit here and act as though they aren’t immensely fucking stupid for falling for this crap. They can’t even be consistent enough in their own messaging to claim that the wool has been pulled over their eyes.
Oh no! Veritasium, that was a good one for basic physics stuff as far as i could tell.
It got acquired some years back and he even talked about it in a video year something later. Doesn't mean he's sold out, but the impact will be there.
Im not sure about "restrained" per see, but the tree of liberty needs to be watered from time to time
The bush of freedom needs trimming from time to time.
palintir, meta, google are all behind it. it serves 2 purposes; silencing dissidents and TRACKING women/potential mothers as brood mares.
how to stay young and probably prey on them, probably learned from another rich AH bryan johnson who is trying to stay young buy sucking the blood of his son, and doing "pseudoscience" on himself with questionable scientists about longevity.
one of thiel's partner while married is a young male model, i get its a thing for older gay guys who are rich.
Fact check: TRUE
It's time to start neutering the tech bros.
Flaying and salting
And pushes the onus of implementation onto others.
Don't worry, with all these data centers going up, they'll have enough hardware power to track the rest of us, too, not just the women.
Going up in flames?
Google actually gets fucked by this. They are likely one of the few to go against it. Having to deal with age I'd on android and Chromebooks would be a huge pita for them.
unrelated but I just want to say theres like 4 separate comments using the word "TrumpID" to describe this age verification, and i think this would be a great way to mock it just like how conservatives called the aca "ObamaCare"
Except it's more ZuckID, since Meta was behind the "grassroots" campaigns and wrote the script "representatives" are using globally.
well neither did Obama personally write the affordable care act, but here we are
You misunderstand, TrumpID is the company that will soon be created that will be the mandatory provider for all OS to use (and pay licence fees to).
That's it! Get the guillotines!
Has Bipartisan support too. The corporations want this, and both of our parties listen to them first and us a distant second. Catering to corporate wants is about the only thing the two parties can agree on. It's probably going to pass, even if I hope it doesn't. Buckle up my friends...
Wow. They did it. The dems found a way to lose the midterms.
I doubt this will have any major effect, the vast majority of people don't care. They are much better at ruining themselves.
Ugh, this is so disgusting! They desperately want control over things they should never have! I've shared my opinion will all three of my representatives.
Kudos on paying them some attention!
Does AIPAC pay them more?
I'm arguing with a local rep who passed a bill in my state for age verification. Only one that'd respond to me. Also signs bills to support Israel.
this is the way
The Internet is built upon and requires anonymous participation! This is an attempt to end privacy...
Youth rights and children rights should not be forgotten. These rights are the most impacted here, which fundamentally causes them to succeed in the eradication of privacy rights.
@throws_lemy @Janx This is gonna kill the internet, and then free speech in general is going to fall alongside it.
It's also gonna kill device ownership as you will no longer own your device under this law.
The end game is everyone accessing info through a state intranet like NK has, through government-issued thin clients, where only the state decides what you can and can't say and what data you can have access to.
Yup, from the party of pedophiles
They want you know they are grooming real children
It’s sponsored by one Republican and one Democrat.
Sponsored it one thing, agenda is another. Conservatives want to control your porn access... this is mostly a right agenda.
Both are the party of the pedophile. Let's not kid ourselves, Republicans and Dems have been separated only by livery.
Meta, etc pushing this so that they don’t have to.
They want this because it entrenches them yet further. More of this kind of regulations makes it more difficult for newcomers to comply with everything.
Also I'm sure they'd love to be the one to hover up all of your data.
Man, if they don't have all my data by now, they're doing something wrong.
Since all TV’s are smart TV’s with an OS this means age verification to watch TV? I think that’s a message that will resonate with the average consumer on what is wrong with this bill
Some people fridges will need age verification
Imagine the government remote-locking your fridge because they found out you voted wrong.
Lollll
I’m so sick of this depraved pedophile oligarch Mossad shit
Fuck everything's my about this.
I can just stop being online. I show my library card when I need to renew my stateID
If the fascists get much further, possessing a library card will disqualify you from voting.
You think fascists are still going to allow voting?
It's not who votes that counts, it's who counts the votes.
That can't be true. We all know trump can't count. He's bankrupted THREE casinos! HOW THE FUCK CAN HE NOT MANAGE A CASINO, BUT CAN RIG AN AMERICAN ELECTION???
..because it's not him doing it. He's mainly a figurehead, a useful idiot. It's the smart fascists around him and behind him. Peter Thiel, Roger Stone, Russ Vought, Stephen Miller, Mitch McConnell, etc. etc. and basically all the Christian Nationalists and White Supremacists who've been working for over 30-40 years to chip away at and infiltrate every US institution. It took a long time, but they worked patiently to reach the point where this was possible.
Citizens United and the Heritage Foundation.
Successful fascists do, and yes. Don't fall into this fallacy and act early, instead of too late.
I think so. Legitimate? No.
I’m so happy that I’m an elder millennial that grew up before internet. I’m 100% okay not using the internet.
I'm going to start looking into Meshtastic and Reticulum .. they look pretty cool.
We gonna go back to BBS with pixel titties
Was starting to think I was the only one who didn't know wtf Meshtastic is lol
lololololol
I told a 30 yr old if this bs comes to Canada I'll just drop all internet connections. He asked what the hell I would do without internet, I replied "Hey, I grew up in the 80s, I'll just go back to the way I lived before the internet. Read books, listen to music, and use the library I have." He looked like I simply said I was gonna cut off my hand
I have enough backlog of dvds, books, console games and cds to last me the rest of my days. Wouldn’t bother me none.
Beautiful
YOU can stop being online, maybe.
We're queer, and furry, and therian, and plural. We do not have community in dirtspace/so-called "real life" (online is just as real).
Some people need the internet to survive.
-- Frost
That's a problem.
Finally, torrenting Linux distros becomes a thing, rather than a curiosity
The smart doorlock my dad install now needs an age verification now?
Don't worry, if it all goes as planned it will even have a gender or even race verification; for your protection.
Primary Josh Gottheimer. Write in anyone else against him. Vote against him or withhold voting at all in the general.
Do not signal that this is tolerated.
Please explain who this is! At the federal or state level? I don't know enough
He appears to be a New Jersey Rep, and the Democratic cosponsor of this bill.
Ohhh, well... Yikes. I think they hop on board without truly understanding what they're signing up for. OR worse yet, they understand and are OK with it.
Either way it's a problem.
If politicians are writing tech bills to deliberately undermine freedom: fire them.
If they're writing bad tech policy because they're not consulting the "good guys" first, such as the FSF, EFF, or OSI: also fire them.
The other things politicians do, like in Illinois, is introduce one bill, and his other things within it to get things passed outside the normal channels. Like when Pritzker up and banned 170+specific firearms, ammo limitations, threaded barrels, and then started a registration process. Also repealed knowingly spreading HIV illegal, so anyone (by the sound of it-haven't looked into it much) can sleep with a new partner without disclosing HIV status. I'm assuming that's to appeal somehow to the LGBTQ community since the bulk of voters are the Chicago area, but some time he purely for just in time for elections.
You might think the firearms thing is OK as it helps cut down on crime. Nope, instead, there's cashless bail and softer policies towards criminals. We can't even accurately report those numbers based on how crimes or incidents are categorized. It's a mess.
He also just made it so that a bulk of the DOT funds go to Chicago roads with little left over for the remainder of the state... The tolls collected by the Chicago area are supposed to help that, but nooo, just keep reallocating funds around election time. Sure.
Finally, the year of linux is coming.
Isn't this against the 10th amendment?
It's against the fourth and the first based on past lawsuits. But who knows what will happen with this.
Possibly the 1st too. Code is protected speech.
@E_coli42 @throws_lemy
And the First.
Totally unenforceable. You going to prevent people from downloading open-source, noncompliant Linux from Asia or Europe? Good luck.
They can certainly try. I don't put it past them to create a great firewall. I don't envy whoever has to maintain those blacklists though.
Ill throw my data on an offshore vps, load my lappy up with a dummy normal looking win 11 install, and drive my ass across to Canada if it keeps getting worse.
Fuck that.
You think our morons won't get around to this as well?
You guys lag behind in this sorta shit, I'll have time to figure out somewhere else safe in the meantime.
I'm not living in a place that will likely punish me for the type of medicine i take and also restricts my access to get it outside of the system.
That's the real plan, I suspect.
Hopefully it works out where it just Kodak-Nokia's the entire Microsoft share of the digital economy rather than gradually enforcing government ID checks for all future PC sales.
I'd like to add, while it might be totally unenforceable, it provides a much more higher attack surface for the general populace allowing the authorities to abuse the system even further.
Would this bill ban the use of all operating systems released before it became law? That seems unlikely.
So then how about OSs released before it became law, with patches released afterwards? That also seems unlikely.
So then how about my computer's current OS, which is a heavily patched version of a little hobby OS called Linux, originally released in 1991?
you’ll simply not be allowed online with the device.
"But that's unenforceable", some will claim.
And to that, let me remind us all of a little-known concept called cryptographic attestation. If that doesn't ring any bells, then the term "secure boot" should.
Once this shit passes into law, that's the next step. Operating system vendors have their private keys to sign attestation tokens saying "John Johnson is an adult" and you're only getting one if you verify your government ID. When you go to a website, your browser sends your signed token to the website and then the website checks if it's a valid token signed by Microsoft, Apple, or Google.
But Linux?, you may be wondering. No. No Linux. Kiss it good-bye. Your bank will "require" identity attestation for "extra security", and your bank doesn't give a fuck about Linux. Your bank will check against whatever list of public keys they want to trust, and it ain't going to include anything not backed by a global megacorporation.
It's already the case that banks don't allow their apps to be used on rooted phones. I can imagine a similar possibility for desktop computers. A dreadful possibility, but a possibility nonetheless.
Better yet not 1 single piece of unapproved software can run anymore. These inconvenient pieces of software that are allowing people to do all sorts of dodgy things can be removed from circulation.
I mean I get where you're going with this, but I still don't see how this effects Linux. Oh no I can't access reddit without a government ID...cool I don't use it anyway?
And if Lemmy or whatever else requires one then oh well, I'll find the dozen or so forums that don't care then
It won't at first. If more essential websites start to unnecessarily adopt it, it will start to lock Linux users out of being able to access the services necessary to exist in modern society.
Imagine if you need age/identity verification to:
theoretically if it's just web servers and apps enforcing this, then techies can move on from the web to something like gemini or gopher and adapt it to their needs.
Also, it's not like websites based in non-USA countries are going to give a shit about this law
About that last sentence; the same crap is creeping in Europe at the very least. There was another press release about the eu commission iirc welcoming a similar decision in spirit. Just not implemented at OS level but web-side.
Not sure or Asia and Africa are feeling about this but unfortunately USA is not alone. which in my opinion gives credits to the various theories that it’s being pushed by gafam.
What are these politicians going to do when they achieve perfect age verification?
Well then they'll know where all the children are.....so they can go find and rape them.
It's kind of nuts how people talk about US politicians now the same way we began collectively talking about catholic priests 10 years ago.
I hope the pejorative sticks.
10 years ago? I can remember going to catholic school when I was 5, and my dads friends joking that the priest was going to get me, and rape me. I had no idea what that meant at the time, but that was the 1980s.
Even in the 70s, if you went to Catholic school in a very Catholic city, or had a number of friends that did, whether male or female, you knew. The only ones keeping quiet about it were the press and the church itself.
Gather lots and lots of data on its users.
And yet another reason to abandon mercan tech.
Linus is American 🤕😭
He's a dual citizen. He was onboard with banning Russian Linux maintainers for attacking Ukraine so they can't sabotage the kernel.
He is however very quite on USA doing the same shit and more. 🤔
https://www.phoronix.com/news/Linus-Torvalds-Russian-Devs
Let's see if he is consistent on stopping this aggression.
Yeah I'm not gonna pretend to be a lawyer but I'm curious how it all works with GPL and all that. It's open source software. Can't a citizen from another country without these laws or something just fork there kernel and not comply with the law and state that they don't need to follow US laws because they're not American?
I feel like OS age verification is similar to when they started asking for zip codes at checkout (U.S.). At first it was seen as weird and brushed off as harmless, but now they shamelessly ask for your email and phone number and get annoyed when you say no.
I left the US in the year 2000 and it's gone downhill since then.
Has to be more than just coincidence.
Come back!
No, don't. Everyone should leave.
You guys managed to fuck up your own country so badly, we sure as hell don't want the same for our countries.
Good luck with that.
Obviously everyone here hates this, but I'm gonna offer another perspective here and prepare for the down votes I guess.
There is a very good argument for OS level age 'tracking' as a means of creating a cohesive environment for software and websites to operate without having to implement individual age verification. The biggest actual issue here is how the OS determines what the user's age is. If this is implemented similar to what California has done, the OS would simply ask for the user's age at setup, and store that value, which can then be reported to programs and websites as needed. This would allow parents to setup a device for the child and not have to separately implement parental controls on every individual conceivable program, which are often easily circumvented. This would undermine any individual website's attempts to use age verification as an excuse to collect government ID data, and the security risks inherent to that.
There's no need to put any kind of validation onto this, it should simply be self-reported.
Now admittedly I don't trust our government to implement this in any kind of reasonable way so I definitely understand and respect the outrage, but I guess I'm just trying to find some positive aspect of how this might be implemented.
Wholeheartedly disagree. OS level age verification only removes the responsibility to protect users from the software developer and shifts it to the OS makers. Meta and OpenAI want this so bad so they don’t have to protect their users and their users children. Meta created the software the has lead to hundreds, if not thousands, of child suicide and they don’t want to be held accountable. AI companies have allowed the proliferation of CSAM, copyright infringement, and straight up theft of intellectual property, and want to push that off to OS as the responsible party. Google and Apple don’t fight it because they have extraordinarily deep pockets and already have the infrastructures in place in their app stores to accommodate this tomfoolery. This is also another avenue for increased surveillance at the deepest level of your digital life that is already extremely compromised. If we want parents to have more controls, then mandate easy to use parent controls for OS’s, apps, and web apps. Legislate mandating firewalls and routers have easy to use parental controls for internet settings. Pay people living wages and work them less hours so they can learn to use those things. Don’t add spyware into the OS. “Take off your tin hat dude.” How do you think they’ll verify age at the OS level? It will have to have an api that can be used to obtain the age verified information. Who’s responsive for reviewing all that PII? Where does that go? Who retains that information and for how long? What encryption technology is mandated to protect it from breach? Nah, man, no thanks.
Sorry but no. That would drive up the cost of all firewalls and routers, for no real reason, except that the manufacturers can because the government says they have to. And most firewalls that offer content filtering need some sort of a subscription to keep the filters up-to-date.
Never mind the fact that a router's job isn't content filtering (it's routing).
Todays parents grew up exposed to the internet. If we don't know how to protect our own kids and teach them how to safely use the internet, then we are hopeless as a generation.
Btw, Cloudflare WARP is free for a small number of users and has a pretty decent web filter built in. It's far from easy to use, but it's free and effective. I use it on my 9yo's Fedora laptop, and as long as he can't sudo, he can't turn it off. And if he even tries to sudo, he will be reminded that he's not in the sudoers file, and this incident WILL be reported.
Don’t get me wrong, I was not advocating. I was pointing out directed ways to actually “protect” kids that would be a lot less likely to really be surveillance. I don’t think any of that should happen.
Well that's just nonsensical. The only obligation it removes for software developers is the need to obtain (and justification for storing) personally identifying information on its users. Websites and apps would still be responsible for moderating their content and only serving appropriate content to underage users. It wouldn't do anything whatsoever to remove accountability for Meta.
That’s also just a minorities to the data intrusion and surveillance this is really building. Data is king, and adding age and other demographics obtained at the OS level to more sell more targeted adds to manipulate people. The same data bend used to target political opponents by governments. But it’s cool. It’s for the safety of the kids!!!
Companies are already required to ask if their users are kids because, among other reasons, there are laws against creating ad profiles for kids, and companies have been sued for doing this even accidentally. The California law just changes how they're required to check if they're a kid from asking them at account creation to asking the OS at account creation, where the parents have set the age for them when the OS account was created. It gives the company checking if they're a kid no more information than they had before. I agree with [email protected] that this is totally reasonable.
This particular federal bill, on the other hand seems closer to the Florida bill in that it requires some form of age verification instead of just accepting what the parents enter when creating the OS account. That is unreasonable. Complain to your representative, and we'll see how it gets amended.
If the companies already have to do this, then what is the point of the OS asking for more personal notifying information than it needs just to operate? Thank beyond the seemingly “simplicity” of this and think how it can be used against you. Then decide if it’s rational. People thought the patriot act was a great idea after 911… They were wrong.
Because for the purpose of securing kids accounts, it doesn't make sense for the kids to enter their ages themselves each time they create an account at a new website.
Tell me how it can be used against me. It doesn't give out any information beyond what I let it give out about me, and that information (an age range) is derived from information I get to make up. Remember, the California law doesn't require any verification of the age data that is given to the OS.
https://youtu.be/beZAkeJcv80
Let’s just say meta delivers some problematic content that traumatizes a kid and really upsets parents. This content was on the 12-year-olds Chromebook. The kid, then setting up the laptop with his parents had his age in there appropriately, and Met used theAPI to obtain it to prevent adult content delivery. However, kid is tech savvy, creates a secondary accounts, says they are 45. Maybe uses parents ID or something to do it. They then get the adult content. Parents file suit. Meta lawyers: Our API works as designed, and we can be held liable when the OS API says the person is 45 and not 12. Case dismissed. Profit.
But okay, definitely nonsensical.
How is that any different from what happens today? Kid makes fake account - gets adult content - Meta shrugs and says they did what they could. Of course there would be ways it can be circumvented, this would change nothing about that situation except shift the responsibility of correctly inputting the users age onto the user, which is where it should be. I'd much rather have that scenario than one where meta is forcing all users to upload government IDs; Using that excuse to harvest and store even more data than necessary.
Should you have to verify your age to your car before you can turn it in, to drive to the DMV before you can obtain your license and registration? Who should have the burden?
Should your front door verify your age before you leave to go buy alcohol from the local liquor store?
Should your bed verify your age and the age of your lover before you have sex?
Also, this isn’t even the biggest problem, the problem is this is just more surveillance. Don’t comply in advance. Default to protect and keep your freedom by protecting your privacy.
😐 How do you think they will verify the age entered into the OS? Smh
So you didn't bother to read my original post I guess, no wonder you're confused.
I did… and everything you say is nonsensical. So I responded in the only way this system would make any sense.
Your way, the OS just takes in an age on trust, then the apps have to verify anyway. How do they do that? They need ID, when it would’ve raise to get that validation from the OS that already had the ID verified. Your way means nothing. It does nothing. It adds an age to a system for no reason and is completely unusable.
This is steel-manning an argument for a feature no one wants which is most likely the thin end of the wedge for increased surveillance and censorship.
This is just how it starts so they can trick well meaning developers into making websites and platforms which make use of this verification while it is still self-ID, but when the laws become more demanding and require connecting your user account to your real-world identity, it'll already be too late, all of your online activity can be tied back to you.
When I make this argument, people like to call it a slippery slope, but the fact is that there are so many nations cracking down on free, unmonitored access to the internet, with social media restrictions, platforms like Discord requiring you to provide identification, and so on.
All for this, all of that risk, all for a feature that adds very little value to the computing experience of anyone.
This isn't why those pushing for want it. It isn't about the kids safety but harvesting more information so they can tie all the other tracking data they have to a individual. its alway think of the children but lets make some money while we are at it.
Wrong. There are things that belong at the application level and others that belong in user space. Fundamentally it doesn’t make sense for any sort of mandate.
TF should I have to put my age or any other personal information into my pihole or any other system I’m running.
Absolutely not, age data is biometric data. It can and will be used to fingerprint you.
Sure, make it an optional field that you can fill in with whatever. Don't make laws requiring it though.
I'll appreciate that it's hard to be a devil's advocate on an argument and provide a nuanced take. But I will say the points made on the Ageless Linux website demonstrate why that's an issue, primarily around how you're teaching kids from their first time on the internet to lie. It really doesn't matter whether this happens through a drivers' license pic or a DOB selector.
I agree with you on this. I wouldn't mind if there was a mechanism on browsers which would send 'child/teen/adult' (or whatever they'd be called) data to websites in request headers since they already report a ton of stuff to the server anyways. It would be trivial for adult sites to check one header and limit access based on that. But the setting needs to be local only, so that parents could easily set restricted accounts for their kids. The point where user age must be validated via any 3rd party it's no longer about parental controls and the whole thing becomes a surveillance tool.
Also the limits should be agreed somehow on at least somewhat global basis so that it's only used for porn/gore/horror and other stuff like that. Things like sexual education, religious topics (likely both pro- and against-), medical stuff and things like that should be left out of the filtering. But as with practically every 'think of the children'-thing proposed for the internet it's got nothing to do with children nor used only for that.
See I would be fine with this. A user input. Cannot be modified after installation. The parent installs the OS, the kid is locked down. Easy.
I'd suggest it would need to be per-user. Family computers are a lot less common nowadays, but are still a thing
Maybe not family computers so much any more, but shared devices, absolutely.
It still needs to be per user, per app. If I hand my phone to my kid or my niece, I don't need them looking up or accidentally seeing adult content because the apps don't ask anymore.
If the apps stop asking the user, and instead just query the OS, there's no longer any connection to the current user. So porn sites, for example, or any app that might have adult-only content, would still have to ask. In which case - what's the point of the OS age requirement? This is in no way more secure than the apps or websites just asking the user.
What about servers? I have several devices in my house that serve content to the rest of the house or provide other services. Would they need my birthday, even though my kids use the services? What about gaming consoles, or TVs? IoT devices? Does my thermostat, garage door opener, living room lamp, or washing machine need my birthdate?
This whole thing is truly a slippery slope that hasn't been thought through, at least on its face. Unless, of course, the whole point of this legislation has nothing to do with "protecting children".
When these guys say "think of the children!", it's usually with their hands down their own pants.
gg, we're done, it's been good ✌️
Can I have your pog collection before you go?
If I had any they'd be yours, sure
Cool, so I guess you're just okay with an authoritarian State. Just gonna roll over at the first opportunity?
What can I do from over in northern Europe?
[ redacted ]
Stop spreading doom and gloom before the fight has even begun. That would be a good start.
Sorry? How have I been doing that exactly?
it's regulatory capture
Does this apply to Mestashtics?
Meshtashtic-net, anyone?
I wonder what the "Lib-Right" would say about this lmao
Without the document text, who knows. But I would not consider it a stretch for a court challenge to interpret "operating system" as "any software that allows a person to interact with computing or electronic hardware". Which would blanket cover all embedded devices.
LMAO at the engineers having to verify their age on systems controls
"You figure out what was wrong with PLC7 yet?"
"Nah, TrumpCard ID systems are down, can't log in."
"Cool, guess the city is going without running water tonight."
Meshtastic does not have the bandwidth to replace the internet. It handles message just fine, but the amount of data you'd need to send for even a quarter of what the current internet can provide would feel like trying to surf the modern internet on a 56k modem.
A 56k modem is way faster than Meshtastic. It's more like a 1200 baud modem and everyone in the neighborhood shares the bandwidth.
Maybe we could get some open-source routers and kernel patches going to implement this instead: https://bill.herrin.us/network/ipxl.html
It's what should've been done instead of IPv6 -- well, maybe it's a bit of a non-sequitur for the current problem, but it would create a different internet that maybe could be routed around the age-verified one if that comes to pass.
yet
What about kids toys with some chip in it? My car probably has 30 chips and OSes in it, am i supposed to age verify those OSes? What about servers that run databases and other things, am i supposed to register those? thos is all so fucking stupid. god i hate fascists.
ERROR: YOUR PACEMAKER HAS CRASHED, PLEASE PRESENT YOUR ID TO VERIFY THAT YOU...
checks notes
... actually need a pacemaker and not just some kid... why need ID? cuz... something something counterterrorism and protect children...
It doesn't apply to anything open source because it can't be enforced.
Waiting for half of the fediverse to excuse devs complying in advance again.
The ONLY way I could remotely support age verification is if it was anonymized from the individual, similar to how companies like Mullvad do their VPN or with prepaid gift cards etc
You get a card that has a PIN behind a scratch-off section. You can buy the card for cash or order online, but there's nothing tying the buyer to the card.
Age verification can be similar where you go to a registered location, provide valid ID and like $5 to get a scratch off card. The code on the card just validates "user is 18+" but otherwise has no ties back to their actual identity.
If a site wants to do an age check, it can validate the card PIN or on phone potentially scan a 3d barcode behind the scratch-off. Maybe some hash check could be involved to avoid the need for a centralized provider.
Everyone will also be automatically registered to vote Republican.
Regulate the social networks instead
Quit trying to make it happen
Never forget who is behind this https://youtu.be/Yd7j_u-wPoM
Thats the day I leave windows for good.
Not gonna matter, especially if Linux, BSD, and other alternatives are criminalized by this.
They can't do anything about Linux. Someone will just fork a copy that doesn't have that.
If they can ban hardware they don't like, they can ban software they don't like too, they could just make Linux illegal to operate.
Illegal won't stop me. Pirating is also illegal. And that ban is working out soo well.
"Linux ISOs" would stop being the obvious legal use of p2p!
@DFX4509B @BlackPenguins say that to PGP
They can make it illegal to sell certain types of hardware to consumers that allows you to install your own operating system. Of course, there is still virtualization. You can run Linux in a web browser nowadays (badly, but if there was a reason to improve it I'm sure it would be done)
Heh. They'll have enough trouble validating it on Windows and Mac for them to not even care about Linux. If rey force Linux to do this it really is the year the Linux desktop.
For all those that truly believe this is no big deal, and honestly believe it’s about kids, and think all the commenters in here are silly or tin hat wearers… go read this:
https://lemmy.ml/post/46083470
Short version: US based company providing age verification has US Govt. surveillance within their stack that adds you to all kinds of potential lists, among other concerns. It also serves as a huge honeypot of data just waiting to be breached, and it will be breached.
For those in the back not paying attention: THIS IS NOT ABOUT KID SAFETY, IT’S ABOUT TRACKING YOU AND YOUR KIDS!
I like having my identity stolen
Thank goodness its politicians trying to make this rule. And there is no way in hell we would ever create a way to circumvent it in a completely legal way by default.
One vengeance for all.
Your username freaked me out even though I'm sober lol
Could the supreme court shoot this down?
Could? Absolutely?
Will? ...
I posted an idea over here about a week ago, I think it might actually meet the legal requirements without any OS changes for Linux/BSD/POSIX UNIX type OSes.
https://old.lemmy.ca/post/63108248
It says could not resolve URL.