Europe’s $24 Trillion Breakup With Visa and Mastercard Has Begun
https://europeanbusinessmagazine.com/business/europes-24-trillion-breakup-with-visa-and-mastercard-has-begun/Open linkView original on lemmus.org1461
Comments279https://europeanbusinessmagazine.com/business/europes-24-trillion-breakup-with-visa-and-mastercard-has-begun/Open linkView original on lemmus.org
I wonder how many trillions of dollars the Trump dumpster fire will end up costing American business.
You'd think our corporate overlords would remove him.
Let's say the pre-Trump economy is worth $100 trillion, and a particular billionaire's share is $2 billion. Let's say Trump catastrophically decreases the economy's value to $50 trillion, while increasing corruption such that that Trump is getting more power, and the billionaire's share is $10 billion.
This is followed by a collapsing market that creates a dip in share prices or private valuation, the assets of which can be bought for pennies on the dollar, eventually leading to that billionaire having $30 billion in a total economy worth $20 trillion.
Win/win for Trump and the billionaire, at the cost of everyone else.
That's basically what's happening, and will continue to happen.
I'm not an economist, so here's my ass talking, but I don't think your example scales out. I think you're making the mistake of equating the stock market to the economy. It isn't.
Not everyone wins in a failing economy. If one billionaire makes out, three more lose money.
No, yeah, that's true. But the billionaires are also competing with each other in a (perceived) zero-sum game and they believe the ones who are cozying closest to Trump will be the best ones positioned to make money - either in a corrupt or a failing economy. But every recession has been a golden opportunity for billionaires.
Heck, in post-collapse Russia, this is how oligarchs first appeared - the "shock therapy" of the 1990s transition to a market economy dropped the value of resources to nothing, and the rich at the time bought them and became the ultra-rich. Some didn't make it. ( Like a super-bacteria forming from the ones not killed by antibiotics, the ones that survived were even more resistant to control.)
Good example, especially given that it looks like a Russian oligarchy is where we've been headed since 2016
Nah, since the 80s at the earliest. The wealthiest were taxed up to 90% and corporations didn't get the tax loopholes they have now until Reagan took office.
That's where you're wrong my friend, for while we had a progressive period in the 20th century, the united states were built by and for rich white land owners, so they could continue to benefit off that which they owned.
I just want to inject here my experience in Britain during the 2008 Crash and its aftermath:
In Britain, the Finance Industry was 17% of GDP, so when the Crash happened the country was disproportionally hit.
After the crash the autorities chose to protect Asset Owners above all:
By 2015 the incomes of the top wealthier 10% of the population were growing in real terms 23% per year whilst the bottom 90% were seeing their incomes fall 1% per year in real terms.
This was roughly how things went for about a decade after the Crash. UK inequality is nowadays huge, social mobility near non-existent, average incomes when measured in a currency other than the pound - which went down following Brexit - have stagneted, overall economic growth is anemic and concentrated in highest wealth layers since that "growth" told by official GDP numbers is mostly asset prices going up.
This is the process by which the billionaires make sure they win: everybody gets hit more or less in a Crash, but in during the subsequent period when the state is supposedly trying to fix it, you get also sorts of "extreme measures required by extreme times" that, "curiously", help the billionaires the most, so some years later everybody but the wealthiest slices of society are worst of whilst the wealthiest are much richer even than before the Crash.
I expect the plans of the billionaires who are cozying up with Trump is exactly to end up richer via this process.
This is spot on, and pretty much how it went down everywhere, not just the UK. Just to clarify: it's workers, not capital, who create wealth. The staggering rise in inequality, pricing people out of cities and the housing market is having a significant negative effect on productivity which is why Europe is falling behind.
This means lost time where we have not been producing anywhere near our potential, and by consequence also not honing our skills to produce anything in the future. We can't just win this time back by political change now, it's lost forever, and young people who should have been at the forefront of developing the economy and making families will never win this back.
We need to be way more angry than we are, and every day that we don't fix this we're letting it get worse.
I'm pretty sure this is exact same thing that happened in USA.
Yeah, I believe so based on what I saw from affar, but I'm more intimatelly familiar with Britain - especially the more subtle elements of politics and policy - since I lived there from before the Crash until Brexit.
That's just what you say. And who cares about billionaires losing money anyway?
The billionaires will be buying up what the millionaires sell off to stay afloat.
I am not a billionaire, just an average joe lucky to be able to borrow a few thousand from my Roth 401k in order to buy oil stocks in March 2020 at 90% off.
I earned between 15x and 20x what I invested and paid off my student loans when the market recovered.
It's not just for the billionaires, but you're right, all of this is intentional and the wealthiest will profit the most.
I guess it's for anybody who's privileged enough to profit off exploitation and planetary destruction.
Yeah. Keep finger wagging. Worked wonders for you in electoral politics.
At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if they're working on it. He's destroying their bottom lines.
That said, if you go after the king, you'd best not miss.
Their bottom lines aren't very important to their goal of owning everything. Money is just a vehicle for power, but once they own everything and everyone they won't need it.
The parasites are still making money. Rocking the boat would temporarily interrupt the party, they'll continue to party until they're forced to change.
The question is incomplete. They will cost trillions, but the presidency, the party fixing elections right now, will cost the country the dollar itself. They will max out borrowing, then print money to pay off the debt and de facto default. They will turn all of those dollars into very much less valuable things.
Presuming no one stops them.
I think you wanted to use past tense here.
Oh they will squeeze tens of trillions more out of the federal government before it fails. Every excuse they will borrow.
Apparently collapse is profitable
Chaos is a ladder
The corporate overlords area fucking idiots. They always have been.
Most of those overlords don‘t care about their business anymore. They want to get the bag now. It‘s how Oligarchies operate. They burn billions to make millions. Or in this case delete trillions to make billions. The goal is have proportionally much more money than us pathetic peasants.
The way Trump operates in particular is unsurprisingly dull. He flips the table and ruins the game for everyone. Then he waits and whoever says some flattering words to him and gives him a hefty bribe is excluded from his bullshit. Suddenly they see their competition crippled while they themselves can do business as usual. That‘s all there is to it. Trump was never the brightest bulb and probably thinks his obvious scheme is brilliant.
True risk is also anathema to them, probably hedging bets on how the midterms go before they make big moves
I think it's simpler than that and just is down to the impact on the next quarter's profits.
24 trillion. the culture war bs with the right is thier best chance of maintain power in the us, so no, they might have accept less to hold on to that power. Or they just stir up the right wing in other countries, alongside with russia.
It's kind of a weird game theory thing, because the industries affected aren't consistently losing. A decision he makes on Wednesday can help the finance industry but hurt the tech industry, and then he can reverse it on Thursday and now the finance industry is tanking but the insurance industry is up. It's tough to know who would work together to pull him out of office, because between any two given days, the people who have the money have different opinions on how he's doing.
They'll make sure it hurts us, long before it ever touches them.
USAian business does great under fascism. Just look at the MIC. Both "parties" just voted on a massive handout for genocide, etc.
Business will be fine! The right/rich people will be bailed out. Etc.
I mean, the proletarinization of the petit bourgeois isn't exactly something nobody predicted . . .
American big business? Not a dime. It’ll be a bailout on the American tax dollar I bet.
I don’t get it, sometimes you wonder if it’s true and he might be acting to help Russia
Sometimes?
Good. The Mastercard and Visa tax never made any sense. We deserve better.
Good. Make it hurt.
I want to see CEOs from the sky.
They would be tiny from way up there
I like the way you think, get them to terminal velocity.
The most important thing about terminal velocity is the immediate stop and its effects.
And the popcorn stand for spectators. Very important.
I dont
Theyre usually fat old men
Better splats. 🤷
Yes, make it hurt EU. It sucks that my dumbass country made it come to this, but it needs to happen. Way too many people here pretend the rest of the world doesn't exist.
reminds me when Brazil launched their Pix payment system nationwide, which is free for individuals, and the US launched an investigation into unfair trading
lol get rekt
Against what? Against consumers that don't need to pay fees? Against the Brazilian government who is behind the pix?
Poor US companies with billionaires yatches bills to be paid.
Becoming independent from the US empire‘s dollar or oil is a serious crime that gets punished with dictatorship. It‘s no coincidence the US is launching a cascade of fascist think tanks and lobby groups against Europe right now.
Very well said. What a great ally! My way or the highway.
Hello, friends in civilized lands, especially those of you who work at financial institutions...
Some of us in the states are excited to watch you do some damage to the entrenched middlemen that have been skimming from all of us for so long. Please do consider letting us sign up for the new stuff. Our money is still worth something, for now!
I agree 100% but also this is like when you watch your brother punch your dad to make him stop hitting your mom, and you know you're going to get the shit kicked out of both of you later for it.
...unless one of your grabs the crowbar and goes for broke...
Hey blue states...
This is like that son that was sexualy abused by his dad for years, then killed and ate him.
Seconded.
i would gladly make the switch if for no other reason than just playing a tiny part in screwing over Visa and MasterCard.
Why? Cause fuck em! That's why!
We should solve our own problems. Haven't we exported enough problems abroad already?
come on canada start taking notes
At least we have e transfers and debit unlike down south. I for one will be jumping on the first non us credit card however.
As an American, I just may do the same.
You do realize why we're scrambling to get a European credit card, right? I mean what's going to stop us from cutting Americans off when Trump decides to invade San Marino?
Oh I hope that they name it something mildly silly. Like "Lone'y" or "broke buckz"
We have debit. And etransfer for things like PayPal or Venmo.
How does debit work for fraud? Are banks more willing to refund when theres5fraud? In the US it feels like it's mostly on the user to bear
Depends on your bank, some have insurance on debit (like a credit card) but a lot in Canadian banks are moving to visa/MasterCard debit cards (since a bunch of our banks moved into the us market and are therefore tainted).
Ha, venmo is such a scam. And paypal is just as bad as MasterCard
How the fuck is venmo a scam? Jesus Christ what Idiocracy.
How is it not? They take a part of every fucking payment. Jesus Christ would not like it at all.
You mean like every company that charges a fee? That's not a scam, that's called business. Jesus Christ it's like people want everything for free and don't understand that it costs money to run a business. Credit cards charge interest, your bank charges fees, businesses price stuff over their cost. That farmer you pay for their vegetables charges more then it cost them to produce. These aren't scams. They are the cost of having services and good provided to you.
How much is the fee? Because last I checked it was not like an etransfer (included in most banking plans).
How about JCB?
Jbc?
Japan Credit Bureau
Ah, are they world wide and less corrupt?
Nope in North America they partnered with American Express.
A lot of countries in Europe already have their own country-wide payment systems.
What we're seeing now in Europe is the stage where those multiple country-specific systems become interoperable and a new international payment system appears.
Canada only needs the kind of thing which has been not just available but actually dominant for decades in countries like The Netherlands and Portugal.
I think banning USA from owning our national/provincial/city news media including papers would be a higher priority, but we're not even doing that.
Canada has Interac but turned it in a for profit.
The Bank of Canada has considered a digital CAD but not started anything yet. Maybe they are taking notes?
Meanwhile, we could give biz the option to lower their prices and in exchange pass down the cards fees to customers (transparently of course, big display: Visa +n1%, Mastercard: +n2%, ...). The current system makes all prices higher but cards provide rebates or other benefits. That's pretty much a tax on the poor who can't access "high end" credit cards.
I'm all for Europe doing their own thing. I'm an American and even I hate seeing the US use it's position for bully politics. No citizen of any other country should ever thing that an American company or govt will treat them with dignity or respect. Look at how we treat each other.
Why do Visa and MasterCard exist? The middleman that jacks up the price while offering the end user nothing? Thanks capitalism.
There was a time back in the day it was useful.
Before smartphones, credit cards were the cashless option.
Now that we all have a more than capable payment terminal in our pocket, Visa and mastercard are obsolete
Sorta. Whomever does payment on your behalf has to be willing to extend credit for an immediate transaction while the very slow process of exchanging money happens at a delay. This is especially so if the transactions are international. I truly wonder how the phone with just an ordinary bank account does this. Is it Google/Apple who extend credit? If so, is that better?
Most other countries don't have to rely on the antiquated network the US uses for resolving those bank to bank transactions. In South korea, Street vendors have what looks like a phone number posted on signage around their Wares or snacks and people just make effectively debit pushes from their bank to the merchant's bank in real time with zero margins.
I kind of expect this is how the rest of the world operates and it's only the us then sits on using its own infrastructure which it made one time, in the 1960s, and has refused to move off of since. This created a lot of the market need for a bunch of private companies to make their own little piggybacking solutions like venmo, zelle, square cash, and all the others.
Too be fair, a lot of major businesses in the US now just exist as financialization institutions extending debt to their large-scale clientele, under the guise of being manufacturing or data services. Like GM. Or Oracle.
I'd suppose the banks work with each other.
uh...NFC payments work through V/M.
They offer credit to losers to spend more than they should. But the credit rates are what used to be usury when the mob did it.
Love to see it.
Anything that diminishes Visa and MC's power is probably a good thing.
We've had this in Australia since the 90s at least. All debit cards are dual network: They support both Visa/Mastercard, as well as the local network (called EFTPOS). EFTPOS is noticeably cheaper to process - around 0.3% fee, compared to ~1% for Visa/Mastercard debit in Australia, ~1.5% for credit, and ~3% for Visa/Mastercard in the USA. The profits stay in Australia rather than going to a US company.
That's only for debit cards, though. EFTPOS doesn't support credit cards.
Same in Norway and I think same in many countries, biggest issue is across borders inside of Europe. Most payments online also.
Thanks for the info! The only two countries I'm familiar with (in terms of payment processing) are Australia and the US, so I didn't want to make assumptions about other countries.
Does anyone outside the US even use credit cards?
They have far fewer perks, so it's not as common.
In Australia, most credit cards have an annual fee, and they pretty much all just offer frequent flyer miles. US cards have much better perks: Quite a few offer 2% cashback, cards with points offer more points than Aussie cards, they almost all include extended warranty and rental car coverage, some include mobile phone protection, etc. If you pay it off in full every month, you get these perks for "free".
Of course, merchants pay the price for these perks, given the high fees to process credit cards. They can make merchants pay a 3% fee, pay 2% cashback to customers on some of their cards, and still make more money from card fees than they would in other countries. Visa and Mastercard used to require merchants in the US to not charge any extra fees for accepting credit cards, but after a big lawsuit, this is no longer the case. Stores are slowly becoming like Aussie stores - charging extra if you pay by card.
In the US, it's also very important to build up your credit score, as this affects loan rates for mortgages, cars, personal loans, etc. Most people build their score by getting a credit card as early as possible and using it often.
Only debit and I only use it because I get cashback.
Without that I couldnt care less and would go nack to PayPal and SEPA.
Same in Canada with Interac. I’d love to see some interop between these types of networks
What Interac is missing is some sort of protection if a number gets stolen, etc. You could lose all the money in the accounts on a card.
Yeah that's not what we're talking about here. Debit cards already have their own circuits, like Bancomat here in Italy. This is about credit cards.
Why would it need to be different for credit cards vs debit cards though?
I don't think it's a technical issue as much as a financial one
I'm glad to see Visa suffer, but I'm pretty concerned that Wero requires a proprietary phone app. There is no way to shop using Wero without this proprietary software.
It doesn't require an app. When you pay, you select your bank and it will redirect you to a page that the bank provides. My bank provides a QR-code I can scan with their banking app, but it also offers a log in form to pay.
So I guess it is based on what your bank is willing to provide.
This is based on my experience with 'iDeal' the predecessor of wero.
Is Wero OpenSource ? Between me & you, I really hope GNU-Taler gets mass adoption they are on version 1.3 I think
what does GNU Taler do exactly? is it just another blockchain-like cryptocurrency scheme? Does it require a traditional bank to provide some kind of API? How does institutional oversight work?
It's in the website.
Wero is intregrated into the banking apps we already have. In Germany the banks ING, Volksbank and Sparkasse already implemented it.
That's just a different proprietary app though.
Are any of those apps FOSS?
Yeah, i was thinking the same thing. Changing one evil for another.
Alas I don't think the USA will have the political stability to ultimately allow the adoption of an alternative. There is zero point building something that also accommodates the USA right now as the new King is quite likely to ban it and waste all the time put into it. Even a treaty put in place wouldn't stop this from happening, so frankly its not worth an EU or any other countries company anticipating doing anything with the USA for the foreseeable future.
Personally, I think having WERO available to Americans would be a good thing for Europe. It aligns the American population more closely to Europe, and if America has a civil war, Europe would have stronger economic ties with the side they favor.
As an American, I certainly wouldn't mind using WERO. Aside from buying my hentai games without censorship, I would like to keep my money in a safe institution. DOGE broke into America's social security systems, and exfiltrated data that includes things like bank account numbers. It wouldn't be surprising if Donald withdraws money from his enemies, without any oversight. Or just orders the banks to do so on his behalf, with ICE in every branch.
Point being, I don't trust America with my wealth. Europe should use that feeling as a springboard for global spread of the Euro.
"Stablecoins" exist and are among the most popular cryptos (1).
Trump literally has his own stablecoin (2), not to mention other crypto grifts.
At the end of the day capitalism is a grift regardless of the food chips used.
So he'll probably ban OTHER stablecoins to get a monopoly, and probably have the government sign a 10 years long binding contract with his own business.
For those who were a little concerned about the "breakup" phrasing in the title, I didn't see any indication in the article indicating those payment methods would stop being accepted. Just moving away from being reliant on them.
Thanks for this. I recall the days of having to take cash to a sketchy guy or getting screwed at the airport so you can get out of the airport. It wasn't cool, and being able to pay with a credit card in some far-flung places now is pretty amazing.
if Turkey was able to do it with Troy, why not Europe with Wero? Hope it all goes well
Turkish person here: Troy is not yet that popular, but it is slowly getting there. Give it another 5 years. The best example is probably Brazil's Pix.
Pix is amazing but it is like an instant bank transfer. One cannot buy on credit through Pix.
Probably a good thing. Buying on credit is a very bad way to spiral into crushing debt.
That’s not exactly true. You can pay through an existing credit card via Pix (it doesn’t have to be Visa or MasterCard), or pay in instalments via pre-approved credit with the bank.
Not the same thing. Every european country already has domestic Troy.
Costco broke up with VISA so, it's possible. Re-establish the Templars again as the new money lenders from old.
What Would Jesus Do? Probably burn down banks and most churches.
When was that? I still can't use my credit cards there unless they are visa
The Costco in Canada I go to only accepts Master Card.
In america they have a partnership with visa and don't take other cards unless they are debit. Mexico Costco also takes discover and other cards
Discover wants a $25k retainer from me to take them as an option. Its just not realistic for smaller businesses when they have such a small footprint.
They accept cash.
Great if you don't mind a wallet overflowing with loose change.
Crazy that we don't have a public sector payment processor, though. You'd think we could have a Generic Card tied to a public bank that handles electronic payments efficiently. But it's been over 40 years since we began consumer grade electronic transactions and its still entirely within the scope of the private sector.
Interac isn’t too bad right? I agree with you that sort of service should be public, but I heard (years ago) that Interac is non-profit.
Edit: I should have just checked before posting: “Interac and Acxsys were combined into a single for-profit organization, Interac Corporation, on 1 February 2018”
Still, talking to vendors, it sounds like the fees are quite low, and I try to pay debit when it’s a small business.
OpenAI started out as non-profit. Quite a few health insurance companies (Blue Cross Blue Shield, for instance) are organized as non-profits.
shrug
Sure. All good when it works for you. But this isn't some kind of wholesale replacement for Visa that doesn't run the obvious risk of becoming Visa 2.0 (or whatever X.0 iteration of credit card companies we're currently on).
One of the things I heard Musk say was that it shouldn’t be possible for a non-profit to just be converted into for-profit. Have to agree with him on that.
Don't you guys have EFTPOS?
Hello fellow Aussie/Kiwi. No, they don't. Or they kinda do but call it something else and it still usually runs through a middleman rather than a direct bank-to-bank transfer - E.g Visa's Visa Debit or MasterCard's Maestro. EFTPOS still doesn't work online unless using a middleman either, like PayPal or Square.
yeah I know eftpos doesn't work online but they were discussing in person transactions at costco.
not having eftpos? Eeeeewwwww. Fucking backwards barbarians.
Nobody ever put change in a wallet.
https://www.walletgear.com/leather-wallets/wallet-with-coin-pocket.html
Hi there I am Nobody.
You want trump in control of our commercial transactions?
He's appointing the next Fed chair as we speak. We're a bit past feeling squeamish about what Trump controls.
So then you do understand how having our transactions controlled by the government is a bad thing?
Brazil has a payment system (called Pix, IIRC) that seems to work well, and has survived some... questionable leadership.
I don't know much about it (maybe a Brazilian can say more about it), but it seems to serve the businesses very well there.
Man I wish I lived in the EU
Right? The ecconomic benefits, the lack of financial catastrophy from suffering a paper cut, living wages, acessible mass transit, and the political stability. It must be like waking up every day in a dream.
Unfortunately the combined forces of US and Russian propaganda machines try very hard to ruin it for us, and they see some success in depleting EU membership support in polls and various political unrests
"Politic stability"
Hahaha...Good joke...
To be fair, it isnt as bad in the USA but you can't really say it is really stable. The far right and conservatives are getting stronger and the left/right trench is getting bigger
The US is exceptionally stable. Their current administration has been demolishing their country for an year and they're still in power, with support from the other branches of government.
Having lived in a couple of countries in Europe, from The Netherlands which has Proportional Vote system and a thus a multitude of small parties to Britain with a First Past The Post system like the US and thus pretty much a Two Party System, I've concluded that at least in Politics stability is just like standing water - it invariably turns into a swamp.
We need some amount of constant change to bring up and flush out the rot that innevitably accumulates in the murky waters of a system were power is always in the hands of a subset of people who are all in the same social circles, went to the same schools and whose sons and daughters marry each other.
Not "Daily Revolution", just regular change so that any funny business going on outside the public eye risks being brought to light, destroyed and the guilty people punished because power has changed has to people who aren't mates of the crooks that did it.
More money ≠ more purchasing power
We may don't get multi 6-figure jobs, but we also don't have to pay 5-figures to visit a healthcare place and fear for our lives by being at will employed. And the CoL is probably also way lower in comparison.
I'd rather continue living here than in USA
Yeah but we pay way less for housing and health.
In my country the vast majority of people can't afford to live alone, because housing's too expensive for a single person. It has always been so, traditionally you lived with your parents until you got married, then with your families' help you'd get somewhere to live, if you were well off enough they'd help you start a mortgage, etc.
Nowadays families can't set aside that kind of savings anymore, for the most part, so the help they can provide is severely reduced.
Shit was rough for Millennials, I have no idea how Gen-Z'ers manage, as it seems to be even worse now.
At least in Europe housing is at the moment proportionally to incomes just as bad as in the US.
Totally agree on Health, though.
Right. The Weimar Republic had their population making substantially more cash than at any point before 1923. They used to be able to take wheelbarrows of cash to the grocery store.
It's true for software engineering because the salaries in NA are insane due to the insane profits those companies are making. But for the average job, life is better.
We generally pay less
Serious question: what is stopping you?
It’s not a simple thing. You really need some personal tie like ancestry or marriage, go to a university, or be sponsored for work.
I don't think that's true. Granted I am from here but just to come and start to work us citizens find it way easier than other nationals. Take it in small steps. Most countries allow you to apply for citizenship after 5 years. You just have to find work and accommodation. Some countries do require proof of ancestry like Ireland but there are many others that dont. Some even have free universities like the Nederland or Germany and they teach in English.
I may not know all the subtleties so don't quote me on that!
Unies are usually not free for non-citizens. At least not where I live.
i am not saying all all free but you can find free if you need to:
https://www.student.com/articles/countries-american-students-study-free-europe
and even if you don't find, the tuitions costs are lower than US and even UK now. have a look maybe you can find something that peaks your interest. the rest of the world is a lot more diverse than the US.
Nice. We have JCB in Japan but I think it piggybacks off VISA/Mastercard for overseas transactions. It'd be cool if it partnered up with a European counterpart for purchases made in the EU.
We have JCB as well but only for digging holes and moving earth.
I suppose I could do that too with my JCB, but it would take ages to get anything done since the card isn't very big or durable!
Hope they don't just end up recreating their own version of it
They will.
Let me be delusional in peace
But... But... Blackjack and hookers...
Finally someone is doing something about this. I worked in finans and people wouldn't believe the amount of money that goes to America because we use EMV and whatever the payment transaction system was called.
Good. I don't want those two fucking corporate assholes telling anyone where they should spend their money on and banning or restricting accounts of any NSFW artist out there while their owners are all over the Epstein files.
Great news. In India we have UPI which already made Mastercard and Visa come to their knees.
Just if it worked with international payments.
Currently, International GPay required a credit/debit card and I am unaware of a proper UPI solution for it.
Also, we lack proper FOSS UPI for Linux despite efforts, due to it being dependent on cellular networks.
For Android, we are pretty close.
For Linux, well, as long as I can get a cellular device that works with Linux ^[could be either a mobile device (smartphone/tablet) or an USB/PCIe WWAN accessory having a Linux compatible cellular chip that also works viably on mobile devices, so I can do the testing.] I am willing to take up development on the Linux branch of the same project. I have actually been considering this for a while and this is the only blocker I see.
I think the Digital Euro is going to be a better idea long term - taking off the hidden tax of payment processor fees is going to make businesses and people richer.
Don’t you think it has some privacy concerns? And how does it affect small businesses relying on cash? I’m asking genuinely, these are intuitive and not well thought out concerns.
I'm all for a European system like this, but the only downside I currently see is that using Wero wouldn't provide any protection in the same way that a credit card does, unless I missed that on the Wero website.
Give me the consumer protection of a credit card and I'll sign up to Wero or whoever!
Does Visa/Mastercard actually offer any protection themselves? When I've had to reverse debit card transactions due to fraud or otherwise, I always just called/reached out to my bank and they did it. I never communicated with Visa/MC. Since this system is pretty much SEPA in a trench coat, I'm pretty sure the same would work here.
Yes they do offer actual protections.
A debit card while using visas processing network is still your banks account and their responsibility. And it's your personal money. Unlike a credit card which is NOT your money and not your sole liability. You are jointly liable with a credit card and solely liable with a debit card.
A credit card the account is with visa, tho it may be managed by your bank thanks to partnerships and bank end integration. Depending on the circumstances you actually will be directed by your bank to contact visa or who ever directly or be forwarded by your bank.
Debit cards are not credit cards. This seems to be a weird hang up people can't seem to understand. Doubly so when they are from Europe. It's always struck me as odd.
Yeah - that's why I always use credit if I can. If someone steals my credit card, I'm protected. The money doesn't even leave my account, so I don't have to worry about losing access to my funds for a few days while everything is worked out.
Aha, interesting. I never had a credit card because it would be too stressful for me to take out micro-loans for stuff. Still weird that it's visa/MC money and not your bank's though.
Do you have a source on this? Because it directly contradicts EVERYTHING I have ever experienced. Visa is a payment processor, but more as a middleman. I've even been redirected (through automated systems) back to my bank when making a purchase using a Visa card. Any disputes are handled by bank. You can't get a Visa card without going through a bank. My debit card has a MC logo and can be used as such, but it's also my ATM card.
Your point about debit vs credit is valid, though possibly more convoluted than needed. On credit, it's someone else's money in limbo, until the bill is paid.
Visa/Mastercard requires all cardholders, cardholders' banks, merchants, and merchants' processors to follow the comprehensive set of rules for disputed transactions. That way the dispute process tends to be uniform across different banks and across different merchant/payment processors.
The network sets the rules, while the banks implement those rules on behalf of the cardholder and the processor implements those rules on behalf of the merchant.
So replacing the network will require a comprehensive replacement for the network's dispute resolution rules (assigning who is responsible for paying when certain things happens) and procedures (how a cardholder can initiate a dispute and how that gets resolved).
Ok, so this makes the most sense to me. This would indeed need to be handled, I think the best solution is for EU to come up with a set of dispute resolution procedures and pass it as a law for everyone to follow. That way, disputes would be resolved the same way regardless of what network or bank you are using, which sounds the most reasonable to me.
That's a very good point - it isn't Mastercard or Visa involved in the card protection. Thank you!
So I guess I'm actually saying: if Wemo offer credit, then count me in!
In the UK the credit card company are joint liable for any purchases over £100.
So if I buy X from company Y for £100, and company Y fails to deliver, or goes into administration, or whatever, I go back to the credit card company and get my £100 back. Or looked at another way, I don't pay them the £100 and they swallow the cost.
You've never used cash?
What is GNU Taler?
A system that guarantees privacy for the consumer but transparency for the seller (to avoid tax fraud). But It's basically a digital wallet for the consumer. If you lose control of the wallet, you lose the money on it.
Sweet that sounds good. How do you turn actual money into GNU taler, and spend it?
It's still a payment system. You need banks and shops to get in. In practice, you would have to wire money from your bank account to the Taler wallet.
Good. I hate Visa and MC
From what I've read, it appears that it's simply one time, transactions.
Surely, they couldn't be that short sighted. This means no "saving for payment information" on your favorite online store.
Also, it seems this is heavily tied to your bank account, which kind of makes me a bit nervous. I like fintech solutions and being able to create "one time use debit cards" or debit cards with a maximum balance and at the moment, I don't understand how wero will fill this gap.
... but I really hope I'm wrong or some fintech will "step up" and make wero a legitimate replacement for visa/master card.
Nothing stops them from saving your public token or number or whatever they'll come up with, or even using the current Wero system. My favourite online store can save like twenty different payment system credentials, what's another one.
No more than visa and mastercard currently. You need a bank to create you your one time debit card. With payment system one time debit card is not needed, because your public facing token isn't enough to make a transaction, so there is no problem here. Which also makes it trivial to implement multiple "wallets" inside the account, or multiple public tokens with different "wallets" associated with it.
Ah, okay. I didn't realize this was based on some public/private key exchange and they were using the term "wallets" as a way of isolating them.
Now, I just need to find a vendor that provides this.
Thank you for the info.
I mean, I don't know what they will come up with in the end, if anything, it's just talks at this point, I'm basing it on all the other fintech solutions that European market has to offer.
I know it's cliché to call anonymous commenters shills, but that sentence has major shill energy. Who says "your favourite online store", honestly.
I also know I shouldn't "feed the trolls", but your comment did amuse me.
Me? Shilling for Visa/Mastercard? Oh, boy. I was merely asking questions, so I can understand "how can I move away from visa/mc, as soon as possible".
It's
interestingcute that this is what you're getting hung up on.Sorry, I said "favorite online store", mate ;)
Cheers
I believe this is known as "JAQing off"
You don't have a favorite store you choose to shop if there are multiple options?
Would "Your shop of choice" make it any better?
I can't tell if you're missing the point deliberately for humorous effect...
50/50
As long as they provide the payment network, the banks and merchants are free to make the rest of the customer facing functionality.
Am I the only one who has never saved a credit card with random stores/companies?
Nope not at all. I really like the "one time use" CC for those "random stores". There are really only two vendors that I "trust" with CC.
I also enjoy the "budget feature" for things like my isp bill (to prevent surprises). It's also great when going abroad, as you need to give a CC to reserve a room (... and those one time use cards won't work).
Now, I just want to find the same level of control with wero.
Even non-random ones.
Just how many data breach does it get before we collectively realize it: as long as the pain of the breach is on us, corps will never really care about security.
Slam them with 10% of their yearly revenues on the first breach, and they'll start taking that seriously.
great news
we need more alternatives to Visa and Mastercard.
Fucking MAGA and Russia are fusing the European Union. Good! As an EU citizen I fully support this type of progress.
All it needed once more was for europe to be pushed to a cliff to unkeash their power
Canada next please.
We already have Interac, a good homegrown solution. I'm sure it wouldn't be that hard for banks to piggyback on it to make credit transactions rather than debit.
It can be hard to pay for online goods with Interac, unfortunately. I’d love to see it become more widely available on e-commerce sites
The problem is, businesses now add credit cards into the cost of items. So if you don't get visa/mc points, you're losing money.
I used to only use a debit card for my entire life, but about 6 or 8 years ago, I started to rely on my CostCo credit card. With my executive Citi Costco membership, I got about $700 cash rewards for 2025.
It takes off the fiscal sting, but I always worry about my balance bouncing.
Love that for EU
Have you guys heard about the player's club card?
Who loves ya, baby?
I've got the Players With Yourself Club card
We're all born bald, baby
How to make this competitive vs. current, American owned networks?
Put a microtax in every financial transaction going out of the EU.
Great, now nobody knows how much that is (other than a lot).
100K is a lot. 24T is unfathomable. :)
It's transactions at the scale of a continent rather than a household or a business. Hardly unfathomable. Just bigger.
Yeah, but long scale unfathomable, or short scale unfathomable?
Idk count to a trillion and check.
I could make a tally stick worth 24 trillion dollars EZ. Seems pretty fathomable to me.
Is there any way to use wero without handing out my mobile phone number to everyone? I'd prefer handing over IBAN or some alias over phone number.
Wero is basically just SEPA real time transactions under the hood, so you can just use your bank app to transfer via IBAN.
that means it's almost useless then, because SEPA offers absolutely zero fraud protection. Once you sent the money, it's impossible to get it back even if you contact the bank 1 second later.
Exception: some hacker did some social engineering and posing as the ministry of defense, persuaded one of the richest men in italy to send him a bribe via SEPA. In that case the banks were able to reverse it one week after. Normal people instead gets only a FUCK YOU.
I read that there also are lots of concerns regarding privacy of data. It apparently collects lots of your data and interactions and shares it with third parties for publicity and so. And they're not transparent at all on this point.
What's the point of having a European app if it behaves worst than GAFAM?
Anyway, I don't know how much is rumour, how much is true. Does anybody have more information?
I can't imagine that they could be worst than the existing VISA and MasterCard duopoly.
If it's onshore then it would be possible to regulate. If it's overseas then I imagine it would be harder to regulate without kicking visa and MC out of the EU and then we would need to start over anyway.
Honestly I can hardly wait to hear my management tell me how much money they've lost on their investments. I'm ready for this place to fall and will welcome the "end" when it finally goes.
When it does, I hope Canada invades (joke, but no really please DO do that)
Just as long as I don't have to carry a bunch of CCs because I don't know what store takes what. Then they will all have different policies, security issues, fraud protection will vary, etc.
As said in the article, in Western Europe you can already use Wero to bypass those and it is spreading in Europe. In France, for the past 40 years, the "CB" network has been available for every basic bank payment card, which is also Independent from the Americans. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CB_Bank_Card_Group I think the new initiative will spread, unify and simplify things.
About fucking time.
Can't we just all use cryptocurrency?
You think people can trust crypto?
You don't need to trust bitcoin because one of the fundamental principles of it is trustlessnes. the only problem I see is constantly changing price of bitcoin
That's part of the trust problem though; when I have a $10 note in my pocket, I trust that it will still be $10 when I go to pay for my coffee later that day.
If I get $10 worth of Bitcoin out of an ATM in the morning, I don't have that same faith in the afternoon. It might be $7, it might be $3, it might be $15,000. That volatility is exactly why I can't trust it as my standard currency.
The second-biggest cryptocurrency split in two becaue some people just decided to undo transactions. The transactions were absolutely theft, but the point is that some people just decided to change what the ledger said.
And the immense resources required as well as the processing time for a transaction.
Now I’m not saying someday a digital currency won’t work. Just it isn’t Bitcoin, plenty of other more viable coins but most people just gamble now.
I think Bitcoin was a good proof of concept that this system can work and scale. Ethereum is trying to be the viable option. I personally like Monero. I am sure in a hundred years or so if crypto is still here, it will be more viable and stable.
Sure one BTC is one BTC. But how many USD is a BTC worth? A lot of that depends on the stable coin tether and that is backed 100% by "trust me bro"
And 99% of cryptoheads are just fine with "trust me bro" they just want "number go up" the rest of it seems to be misdirection and distraction.
You'll own nothing and be happy about
Crypto doesn't have the same consumer protections as centralized cards, though. You can't dispute a fraudulent transaction with crypto, as every transaction, much like cash, is permenant and irreversable. That and crypto also has a negative connotation with scams, as it is very commonly used to scam people.
The technology and the idea of a decentralized currency is cool, and with cryptos like Monero, can even mean private transfers of money across the internet, but it also has its flaws.
I do think blockchain technology has its uses, though, for example, with government elections, although in that case, individual clients can be compromised, and there is a high amount of incentive for malicious actors to do so.
And that is ignoring the many issues with proof of work and its power usage.
Not really.
Isn't crypto supposed to be a worthless grift tho? \s
Open article, control+f for "crypto". 0 results.
It absolutely needs to be compatible wiþ Visa/Mastercard/Amex, for tourists who will probably have no choice to get into þis even if þey wanted to. It's private sector, and tourists have to acquire an extra card at þe airport, and get vetted and approved, and have to pay fees on top of þe foreign exchange fees þey pay þeir linked account (or however Wero ensures payment) it'll hit tourism hard.
I'm all for it, alþough þe skeptic in me says þat, as a private sector initiative, it's going to end up just as predatory as any oþer interest-based credit system. European capitlaists aren't paragons of eþical virtue (hello, De Beers! Hello, Nestlé!). I'd have more faiþ in the public sector digital currency.
It'll probably work how it works in Australia. Payment terminals accept both the local network (EFTPOS) as well as Visa, Mastercard, etc. Aussie debit cards are processed via EFTPOS, while international cards use Visa/MC/whatever. Aussie cards are dual network (support both EFTPOS and Visa/MC/whatever) so they work overseas too.
What is this letter that you use?
It's a thorn, and it makes the "th" sound. It's an outdated letter not used in any modern languages, except for apparently in Icelandic.
You know there is a difference between the voiced and unvoiced dental fricatives, right? The voiced was represented with "thorn", while the unvoiced was represented with the letter "eth". They do contrast phonemically sometimes, so if you're going to bother using thorn, you might consider using eth too.
Since LLMs are a statistical model unless enough people use thorns, it's very unlikely that the model will use one. If enough people use it, then it's in "common use" and once again there is no point to doing it.
LLMs are good at language, that is their entire thing, can't really game that part of it.
Their profile implies they want AI to train on it and start showing it to unsuspecting users