At this point, what should we do about the ICE raids? If an ICE agent breaks in without a warrant or holds you at gunpoint, what do you do?
Would community defense organizing be good?
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Would community defense organizing be good?
Alone, you are out-manned and out-gunned. Community is probably the best bet as bullies rely on uneven strength for their confidence. They're untrained and want an easy target. Don't give them it
I really wish there are free community defense classes
What kind of classes? Shooting? If so I'd say shooting won't help much unless you have a community response to those threatening you. It just gives ammunition to those calling the American population dangerous, and trying to break them into groups so they can exploit hatred and fear. I believe that standing by all "groups" no matter what is what needs to happen. When someone tries to divide to conquer, the best answer I can see is avoiding any divides. The problem is it works on so many people, that about 30% of the country agrees that they have enemies in the country. Yet those people they think are enemies... Are no one they know, and would take as a friend if they were their neighbor.
Edit: that's said as someone taught to shoot when I was 8 and has owned guns from 18, I'm 36. Guns aren't the answer without community
All groups with one caveat. No Nazis. They can go fuck themselves.
2A. What it was intended for.
Unless you're actually breaking the law and they're not fake cops. In that instance you're the asshole.
Some would argue that shooting real cops wouldn't make you an asshole either.
You still wouldn't be legal for doing so. But I wouldn't say someone is an asshole just because they killed a cop.
Castle law exists for a reason.
That's Malcolm Reynolds, not Castle. 😆
I'd argue if a cop is trying to kill you instead of arrest you, which is their job, then yeah, killing them back isn't exactly an asshole response.
You can be an asshole for something else in the situation, but not for the mutual killing.
Hence the "and".
be a browncoat, not a brownshirt.
First, contact as many people as you can, especially local ICE watch orgs. A lot have hotlines which you may be able to find with a web search. Next start recording. Delay as long as possible. Ask for a warrant, stay calm and maybe try to negotiate as a stall tactic. This will hopefully give community members time to arrive and record or hopefully apply pressure if they are brave and numerous enough. It is possible to intimidate and drive them back with enough numbers.
All else fails at this point I would not fight back and allow yourself to be arrested. Most citizens being arrested right now are being released. The courts are slow but still upholding the law for now. If you are not a citizen then your options might not be as good. Fighting back is likely to get you injured or killed but if you have an escape route it could be worthwhile, especially if you can escape in areas where motor vehicles can't go. Their level of fitness is generally low so they can't give chase for long, and as long as you're not high profile you might be safe once you get away, though you'll likely need to lie low somewhere.
If you're asking what to do about the current political situation in a broader sense then I have different answers.
I think groups of openly armed citizens patrolling the streets would be a huge deterrent to ICE. These guys are violent bullies when they operate against unarmed people, but I doubt they are willing to mess with a mass of armed defenders.
But if the military continues to go along with Trump then this just may escalate things.
There are four boxes of liberty. The soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, and the ammo box. Use them in that order
Soap and jury are out. We might not make it to ballot.
Would be incredible to see protest where they show up to any ice presence fully armed. Still act as observes but also to ensure ice doesn't execute anymore Americans
Minnesota has "permit to carry", so you need a permit to legally have a firearm in public. Other states have banned open carry at protests. There are legal barriers.
With everything that is happening I'm questioning my state's assault weapon ban. The feds are unhinged.
Laws specifically targeting disarming leftist
They arrested a guy who had a concealed permit and his registered weapon on him
I edited it because my early morning brain doesn't always come across clearly
Are you referring to Arturo Gamboa, who was shot at while protecting a No King's Day protest? He eventually walked free, and the shooter was arrested.
Imo; fuck them pigs.
Do NOT proper fuck them
I know from experience, that cops enjoy being hate pegged by lesbians.
I mean, not my OWN experience, but lesbians have told me what they did.
I'm from Denmark, and reading this thread is really scary. What the hell is going on over there?
the people behind a 5 decade long plan to build amerikkka finally feel secure enough to take off their masks
Full Nazi takeover and not enough resistance although the ICE agent shooting Renee Good in the head three times has gotten some people to react.
The federal government is sending masked agents to brutalize and terrorize people is cities that are adversarial to their agenda.
It's bad.
Essentially a 1930s Germany speed run by the stupidest fascists you can imagine.
Just think those old black and white films of whimsical aviation fails. That is what they are in real life. We’ll see how history plays out. Not usually too well for these types. Just bad optics overall.
If they are in your home and you are at gun point, all you can do is play along and pray. Anyone saying otherwise is beating their chest or stupid.
If you were armed and responded with force, they will kill you. Period. Even if you manage to take down the initial force, you're not leaving that house alive.
We need to do so many more things before the "they're in my house with guns" stage.
Start by getting to know your neighbors. For real. If they are all right leaning, move. Surround yourself with like-minded people. Build mutual aid networks. They are far less likely to enter your neighbor's home if you're sheltering there, for example.
Have contingency plans on top of contingency plans. For example: you have a best case scenario fleeing plan. Decide where you're going (ideally another country). Build out your time line, work on making it happen. Then plan less ideal ones all the way down to your "Anne Frank" plan. Who can you hide with long term?
For the Anne Frank scenario; what are your insurgency skills? You don't have to be a fighter to be useful to your community. Learn, hone, and practice the skills that make you valuable to yourself and others.
I sorta agree with this. I live in the Trumpiest state in this shitty union. I'm the most left leaning person on my block. I know most of my neighbors and they have gotten to like us. That said, there are some of them who I know would turn us in no matter what.
The area I live in is majority trump cultists. However I am a middle aged overweight white male construction worker, so I blend right in. Im going to be someones anne Franke hidey hole if it comes to that.
Doing the good work, comrade.
Use your gun.
Don't have one? Get one.
Can't get one? Make one.
Hit me up for PDF on option 3.
Sup, I'd like info on option 3 please
That would probably be the FGC-9. Or Luty's Expedient Homemade Firearms. That said, getting into a gunfight with armed federal agents seems like a quick way to commit suicide.
Actually I don't have that one in my collection yet, thank you for my next project.
Oh I'm not at all, I was just curious how poor of a idea they DIY firearm was...I once saw one that used a square tip shovel to start. I don't know if some folks could machine that shit nope from me
Vice News did a bit on 3d printed firearms a while back. It was really interesting and gave a realistic demonstration of the ease and difficulties of 3d printed firearms.
You really just need a steel tube and a hammer.
Well yeah, but anything worth doing is worth overdoing.
Two hammers?
Slamfire shotguns are fun.
Will the
leftleft-claiming finally accept the need for 2a?The left are armed. Or did you mean Democrats/Liberals?
Another liberal here with a literal fucking arsenal suck my balls divider
Fair enough.
Liberal here. I've a real beauty of a Lee-Enfield that was used to kill fascists in the 20th century. She's ready to do so once again in the 21st if necessary.
That's awesome, I'd like to fire one some day. I love a good bolt action.
Action is smoother than a fifty year old Scotch. Constructed about a hundred years ago, but if you didn't know that, you'd swear it was brought into the King's service yesterday.
As to downvotes that aren't related to phrasing: do you really think that's an invalid statement? Why?
I didn't downvote you, but it's been my experience that liberals tend to support ineffectual gun control and the left tend to already be armed.
Democrats aren't much to the left of Republicans.
Yep, that's why I changed phrasing - and, agreed.
I'm in rural Cheshire in the UK, so first of all I'd be very surprised.
Any and all kind of organizing are good. Don't reinvent the wheel- find people who are already somewhat organized and go there and LISTEN. They will be less privileged than you but if you go in there humbly and say you're a dumb shit and should have listened to them way way earlier then maybe things will work out. The elephant in the room is that you never cared about their lives and you obviously need help now, but you'll be surprised how compassionate people can be. This is also a pretty good list.
'Don't reinvent the wheel'
Wait, this is horrible advice. It's the opposite of what any successful entity does. The wheel here is a problem that the authoritarians have solved long ago. If you're not reinventing it then you're cooked before you even go to the store to buy your markers and bullshit cardboard supplies. They have studied the same old civil protests for decades. They have made laws to prevent protestors from being effective. They have decades of behavioral studies and actionable propaganda that they pull out and dust off every time you even think about sharing one of those 'no kings' or 'general strike' posts. Any protest you can imagine they have solved. If you don't reinvent the wheel, you're going to look fucking stupid when you show up with another 700m people and go home having accomplished nothing except get your leadership and organizers arrested.
That wheel needs to be reinvented. Look at the truck convoy. Hate them all you want but they did something brilliant. It was brilliant because at their top they had people who studied and knew police and authoritarian response and they found solutions to break them. After all, they were the authoritarians. They first drove through the streets across America to build awareness and hype. It's a fucking parade. People came out and cheered on over passes as they rolled through. Others joined. Then they filled cities with so many vehicles and trucks that the police had no idea how to even responsed. How do police safely weave themselves into that formation to make arrests. Then what do they do with the trucks just sitting there? The truckers made it a street party to prevent police from committing violence. They invited families down to enjoy music and hot tubs while also shutting down major parts of cities everywhere neutralizing police ability to do their job.
The left do not have the same effort at the top. It's lacking. But they need to figure it out super fast because I promise you if you're just showing up to the streets with the same old shit then you've already lost. That wheel needs to be reinvented quick
You excerise your rights provided to you by the constitution. Have a lawyer and video tape everything you can and fuck it do it live.
I’m from a suburb of Minneapolis. Civil engagement is a good way to go. Recent events (shootings) got people to get our city council to figure out what they could do for gun safety. ICE hasn’t touched our wealthy suburb yet, though. There hasn’t been a city meeting since Renee Good, as well. Next city council meeting will be 🔥
What can they do for “gun safety”? I’m fairly sure the woman murdered wasn’t because of lack of gun safety on her end.
I’ll also add, I’m Minnesotan. Also have connections to FFLs. So I’m getting a lot of the same news, we don’t really have a gun safety problem. We have laws about how to store firearms and ammunition. Shootings that have taken place aren’t for a lack of “gun safety”.
I wasn’t trying to imply the gun safety thing will make a difference in the current atmosphere. Just that pressuring and changing local government helps and is something to do. Idk man.
That’s fair. I will not argue that.
Honestly DylanMc6 there is nothing you can do and no answer that will be correct. Do your best.
My advice is buy a shotgun, let them know you are armed and under no circumstances do you open your door to them. Once the door is open all hell will break loose and you will have to make some hard choices within seconds.
Protect yourself and your family at all costs and hope you don’t have to kill anyone to do it.
I'm actually non-binary, and I prefer gender-neutral and feminine terms. Seriously!
Ok. Buy a shotgun.
Corrected. Thanks
Please change your pronouns to [she,they] then.
Fight, die, shrug emoji.
Do a nazi thing, like a hitler salute. That way they get confused, and could possibly see you as one of them.
Second idea: wear an explosive belt at all times, now you can get all of them, and if youre lucky even the bomb expert and negotiator.
If you go out wearing a suicide vest, you'll get 84 virgins of your choosing. Men, women, sheep . . .
Exactly, and you do good. I say its a win-win situation.
If NOT those things, what else should I do?
Rabbits foot?
Leave the country. Its far better for you and your family
Kill or be killed.
Kill and be killed in this situation. Defending yourself is not going to win out in a solo situation.
Light em up
Most ice agents will stand down facing a well armed militia. They're just paid goons looking to take out aggressions against those who can't fight back. Give them opposition and they'll realize the pay cheque isn't worth it.
There isn't a well armed militia in my house.
Even one well armed person isn't going to deter the 4-6 armed assholes they tend to send through your door.
If they come to kill me they're gonna kill me. I can't stop that. But that doesn't mean I should make it easy for them.
You gotta make that home-field advantage work for you.
I can send you some great instructional videos from Kevin McAllister.
You either contribute to the United States' brain drain so that the economic situation collapses, or you use the second amendment.
What I would like to see is local organizations, like even city councils, running programs to arm thier citizens. Ideally with free training and such as a requirement. Super awesome would be if they setup shop near protest sites to do some basic training and then sell the weapons to the people legally for like $10 or something. Essentially, legally and responsibly arm the protestors. If ICE starts shooting, they return fire. That should really give ICE pause.
Are there any instances of that happening?
No, and if there were, it would likely give actual legal grounds for the federal government to invoke the Insurrection Act which would allow domestic deployment of the US military - not National Guard, full military. Local PD isn't doing much for the same reason.
Seems all you need to use to get the threat of the insurrection act is a snow shovel. Go big or go home I say. And even without it, he deployed marines in so cal.
Local PD aren't doing anything to stop this because the police forces are mainly staffed by low-IQ Republicans who, if anything, will protect ICE with the argument that ICE is federal and therefore apparently can ignore all laws.
I live in a rich suburb of a big city and as far as I can tell the city actually has control of the police, the police union isn't run by a bunch of comic book villains, and the non-MAGA "good cops" actually want to work here, and do. Hop over to the big city and their police union acts as a 4th arm of government run by truly evil people.
Local PD can't do anything because the second they do, Insurrection Act.
Some of those who work forces.
sorry for double-post. server glitch.
I'd love to see all kinds of resistance to this.
If an armed militia shows up on the same street as ICE, but in greater numbers, there's a pretty good chance these imposters leave.
I hope somebody's working on building an app for recording everything possible and centralizing that information - license plates, photos, videos.
Perhaps homemade stingray devices that grab IMEI/IMSI numbers from agent's phones, so that it's easier to identify and link these agents between locations.
More people following them around to report on location and activities. Report on where they stay so that protests and obnoxious deterrence can be set up so that fewer businesses are willing to service these people.
There are so many more citizens than there are ICE agents. Doesn't seem like it takes much to overwhelm them and push them out, so long as it's coordinated.
If we reached the point where they came into my house I'd be fucked no matter what, so I'd take as many as I could with me. No use in making my death meaningless.
Blast them with piss, fling feces in their faces, go full primate. 🐒
Better to die fighting then to die on your knees.
FOLLOW-UP QUESTION: What about invoking the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution (which by the way gives you the right against self-incrimination)?
ICE don't care about the law, as evidenced by everything they've done ever.
yeah, that will stop them taking you away by force, and ripping out cosmetic implants or other surgeries (I could only find the link to the latter with the little time I have)
https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/blog/ice-subjected-immigrants-in-detention-to-unnecessary-surgeries/
If the country has another federal election, heck... if the country survives past this at all, I think there's going to be a major conversation about states rights versus federal rights. What we're seeing in Minnesota is wild, bordering on something that could spark a localized civil war if people start violently standing up against this. The states should be able to come together and defeat the federal government at any point.
The Constitution grants the federal government the right to exist, and it belongs to the people. Not any one leader. Evidently some of that power needs to be pulled back.
That's a calculation each of us has to make personally. If you are white, a citizen, have people that rely on you, and are wealthy enough that they can fight a legal battle for you, maybe don't resist and hope for the best. If you are none of those, and you think you might get sent to a concentration camp or Africa, maybe defend yourself as best you can.
Good luck to everyone.
That is the point Mr. Bond is expected you to die. There is only luck at this point.
film them
Stand your ground?
Convert the HOA into something that actually helps their community. Turn that hate for your lawn into hate for the ICE agents who won't let you take your kids to school.
Short term if you're talking about not dying, you're not going to stand a chance without being a full prepper.
The clownvoy showed up with enough big trucks that the police could not fight out how to handle them. They also invited people to come hang out so police couldn't just tear gas and beat skulls in. The left are still protesting in ways that they protested 70 years ago. The police and military have literal books and charts to deal with it. Unless these protest evolve, they're really not doing back shit
Honestly, I'd take my fate into my own hands, and hope I could take a couple out before they took me out. Assuming I could get to a gun before they had me in their sights. Oragnaized and committed community defense could stop it from getting to that point, but the people participating also have to be prepared to die for their community.
Surrender and recognize you might get a listing in the back of a history book someday, if they don't win. PS: They will likely win.
If NOT surrendering, can community defense be good? Are you a nihilist or a pessimist?
If you're the person being arrested, your options are to surrender or fight and hope they only beat you within an inch of your life without actually killing you (with the understanding that the chances of them killing you are increasing every day). Unless you manager to use legal force against them in which case you are 100% dead.
Community defense is when OTHER people come to rescue you, typically using nonviolent methods to harass and inhibit the agents until they give up and leave. Of course, the chances that agents will just kill them are increasing every day, too. Either way, once you've been targeted you'll likely need to go into hiding, and engaging legal council is probably a good idea even if you're a citizen.
I don't think this is pessimistic or nihilistic. I feel like it's a pretty accurate assessment of the likely possibilities. I'm open to hearing other interpretations, though.
If not surrendering, you're toast, community or not. They'll kill you for resisting before your community can mobilize. So you end up in a different list in the back of a history textbook.
Of those two, I lean toward classical nihilist; I believe nothing but what I've experienced in my own self. Pessimists believe that everything gets worse; My hope is that it changes for the growth of our society.
So to you, nothing matters, so it DOESN'T matter if nothing matters?
When did I say anything about whether it matters or not? Belief doesn't imply importance. It matters, because the people I care about could be hurt or worse. I just don't have a belief that it's inclined towards one path or another.
Dont use advice found on the internet that come from keyboard warrior. Comply with the law and nothing will happen to you
Says don't follow advice from anonymous internet people.
gives advice.
Dude is a fuckin Nazi
i tought it was a reasonable one that anybody can achieve the same conclusion. Have your gotcha
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wrongful_convictions_in_the_United_States
I concur. Don't listen to internet keyboard warriors.
do it your way. tell me how 2000 thousand wrongfull conviction on nearly 300 year give you exclusive right ?
I don't think I can.
well if you wanna prouve me right the best way is to assault law enforcement and that the justice say it was justified. Idk how you wanna dot it but tell me if you do
No, it's not that. You're definitely wrong. Slaves being bought, sold and abused were complying with the law, and that did not work out for them. People of Japanese ancestry were complying with the law when they were moved into concentration camps during WWII, and that was not okay. Just complying with the law is not going to protect you from harm. To add to this, black people had to fight against the law for almost a century in order to get recognized as equal to white people. Women had to protest and non-comply with the law in order to get recognized as equal to men. So active non-compliance is practically a requirement for things to change for legally marginalized people.
The real problem with explaining it all is that every time I see someone going hard to defend the absolute dumbest, room-temp IQ, stance on a situation, it's usually you, or like 3 other people. I don't even have to read your name to know a post belongs to you, the absolutely backwards crap you post has it's own very unique style that lasts substance or tact. I don't think you could be convinced that you are wrong, despite the preponderance of evidence that you couldn't be further from the truth.
Can u have an exemple that happened when you were born ?
Agree in theory butt you push the argument to an extreme that make no sens.
Again can u take an exemple that happened from where your were born ?
Can u describe who is the marginalized ppl in that case ?
yeah cause it s well known that your chance to be a victim of police violence dont dramaticaly increase when you refuse to complie. The real problem with explaining it all is that every time I see someone going hard to defend the absolute dumbest, room-temp IQ, stance on a situation.
See, this is exactly what I was talking about. No, I'm not doing any of that. Take a hike.
Fucking Nazis won't be tolerated
did anybody fought the nazi in your familly ? you know the real nazi not just ppl you call name when you disagree with them on the internet.
Only Nazis believe that Nazis are "people you disagree with" so besides your long history of evil positions, that'd be more evidence you're a Nazi.
If you dont disagree you ?
Have fun sealioning and spreading bile while it lasts. Your account will be banned soon :)
ok i thought you would fight nazi with more force than hoppe that my online account on a platform use by 0,0001% of the world would be ban. have fun
Personally I’d just comply. They’re thugs, not law enforcement. They’ll hurt you and there will be no recourse available. If they’re there for someone else, I’d probably comfort that person and ask if there’s someone they’d like me to call.
Found the spy
Honestly if I value your own life and survival, which most people do, your best bet is to be docile and comply.
Actual resistance is better done planned in advance, the US even helpfully write its own guide during WW2
Pretty sure this is a targeted release set up by the government.