He goes on to talk about what might have motivated the artist to draw the comic, pointing out that nobody has taken black coffee away from him. Pargin says:
"All that happened is the range of options for other people expanded and he perceived that as persecution […] this is not political, this is a human nature thing. Most people are not satisfied to simply have the option to live their life the way they want. They also want to feel normal […] and see that most people have made the same choice they have made.
Yep and part of that is just letting the things exist and be what they are, even if they aren't for you.
Let DOOM be what it is for those of us who were the right edgy age at the right time to eat it up. Let the calm games be what they are too, without requiring combat mechanics.
People gotta practice letting go. In general. About literally anything. The correlation I see in my acquaintances between not letting go of trivial shit (including the existence of different types of people that like different things) is stark.
My favorite thing about Sandy Peterson is that he is a Mormon. Not that I like that he's religious. But when he was applying to ID Software to make Doom levels, they were concerned about his religious background. Then he said his famous line "I have no problems with the demons in the game. They're just cartoons. And, anyway, they're the bad guys."
But when they said, "Well at least you're not like one of the crazy ones who carries a card!" And Sandy whips out his Mormon card...
It's a very mixed bag. You can (technically) do a Pacifist Run in BG3 that leans on conversation to keep earning XP in a game that heavily favors combat rewards.
But without prior experience in the story paths, it can be hard to know who can actually be cajoled and who is innately unreconcileable. Lots of NPCs lie or bluff or just bait you into giving up initiative.
You do get more story in dialogue. So if you don't mind the odd ambush or icy rebuff, I'd say there's more to diplomacy than just pain.
And honestly I would not be surprised at all to hear a demon in SMT tell me that my mother sucks cock in Hell. And then I'd say something like, "she's better at it than you" and there's a 50% chance they like my attitude and decide to join my team, and a 50% chance they get offended and take a free turn.
I loved Strange Journey increasing recruit odds for demons of same alignment. Not only does that give it gameplay purpose, it means you can get consistent fusion fodder without the BS, while preventing you from peacing out of every fight.
It's a line from the movie "The Exorcist". Coincidentally just watched Ricky Gervais' new standup special that just came out in which he riffs on this exact line.
After genuinely laughing at this, I anecdottaly remember my father asking, "If your home sick, why are you playing vidya games?"...it was 'Rise of the Triad" at the time...
I feel the bad feedback trope is inverted in 2025. Devs will release a game, get a solid audience, then completely change mechanics or style or direction for no apparent reason. The audience complains (pointing out what they like in the original release), the devs tell them to kick rocks and the game shrivels up and dies.
What happened to Battlebit? I didn't play it much, but when I did it was basically just voxel Battlefield 2/3/4. If they pivoted I sure hope it's something stupid like survival extraction zombies or something, just because that would be the lamest possible direction.
Wasn't the original vision of Doom closer to an RPG than the action game it came out to be? I know I read somewhere (one of the books written about development of the game) it was originally meant to have a bigger story, multiple characters, dialogue, etc.
Maybe? The devs played DnD during development and the chapter text definitely sounds like a GM setting the scene. Supposedly Daikatana is closer to John Romero's vision of Doom(it was Quake). It's not great though, so if they tried to implement those ideas back with Doom, it probably wouldn't have been as well received. Doom has a sort of K.I.S.S. design.
... OK, I read masters of doom. Quake had a vision, that vision became daikatana.
The problem was that Romero couldn't bring everyone on board, because it was too complex and they slapped whatever everyone did together; hence the random design
Although, I did play and learn about Rise of the Triad, which is what Tom's vision for the Wolfenstein 3d sequel turned into, and it was still a run and gun shooter.
EDIT : I suggested quake because you said you were unsure :)
Games like System Shock and Deus Ex are examples of "FPS" games with alternatives to shooting. Those kinds of games are completely my jam. I love to find a way to complete the whole level without ever firing a shot. The Deus Ex remake had an achievement for passing a level without ever being spotted in an unauthorized place, never setting off an alarm, etc. It also had one for completing a level without killing anybody. It took 5x as long, but I made sure to get both those achievements on every level.
I'm sure the id software crew knew what they were doing, and the market for demon-murdering FPS games is probably much bigger than the market for First Person Sneakers. OTOH, there are currently a glut of FPS murder games, so there's probably a real niche for someone who's willing to create a game where shooting is possible, and happens sometimes, but stealth and nonviolence is also an option.
Expected more people arguing about dark souls in here. There's usually a contingent of people going at it over "I want to win on the first or maybe second try" vs "the game is about failing repeatedly until you persevere"
I don't think Sandy did much game design on Doom though. He was mainly a level designer who came in late in the project to finish the levels started by Tom Hall, who had left id software, and to grind out levels for the third episode. By the time Sandy joined id software, Doom (the engine and game mechanics) was already pretty much the game it was going to be.
I should also say that the maps he made for Doom and Doom 2 are by far my least favorite in the game.
This can be overused though. There are dumb mechanics and choices in Fromsoft games that the megafans bend over backwards to defend, and say you're just "not into the genre" if you criticise them... yet millions of people play and enjoy the games but dislike those aspects.
Valid reason is you want the online features because messages from other players is content. Counterpoint is, pvp is also content. Counterpoint is, people can want one and not the other, and it's not that complicated to just give people a toggle. Elden Ring is not worse because of its improvement over the DS invasion system.
Wo Long straight up just lets you turn player invasions off. I would not mind it being an option, personally. I wouldn't turn it off most of the time, myself, but I am always for more options than less.
I, personally, want it to work like DS2 but without Soul Memory. No level or weapon upgrade limits. You could be fresh out of the tutorial and be invaded by some level 347 dude with the strongest weapons and beefiest armor. It would be awesome.
I like all the online features that aren't invasions.
Invasions, however, are simply punishing me for reviving. I don't seek out PvP, which means I don't have all the techniques they use for cheap crits, I don't have a PvP focused loadout (I tend to go for slow weapons and I'm usually not all that optimized), etc., etc., so when I get invaded it's mostly 'Welp, this run is a loss. Better die somewhere I can get back to.' I know I'm going to get one-shotted with some OP weapon from someone who fishes out a lagstab, and it's been that way since Demon's Souls.
Don't forget the Nioh series, which adds Diablo/Borderlands style loot and skill trees that unlock weapon skills dependent on weapon type rather than the weapon arts specific to each weapon like in Elden Ring. It also has a cool take on the bloodstain mechanic where instead of seeing how a player died, you can see their gear and summon a copy of them to fight with a chance of them dropping some of their gear.
I’m confused. I get the The Exorcist reference but I don’t get why it’s relevant here or why this person is going places where people can talk to them about the game if they don’t want people talking to them about the game.
Let’s break it down. He was a game developer at a game developers conference…you know, where people are there to talk to and ask questions to game developers about the games they develop. He was there specifically to answer questions about his game and someone asked a stupid question about his game and got the answer to that question, because he was, again, participating in an event specifically to be asked questions specifically about his game that he developed and was at a game developers conference to talk about.
I appreciate your attempt to alleviate my confusion but you have really only covered what I already understood. I’m confused as to why this is something somebody would want to tell other people about. Why did they even agree to be on the panel if they were just going to be an ass to people who may have even paid money to stand in line and ask their pedantic questions? At the end of the day it really seems like somebody bragging about taking their annoyance out on a random fan.
The reference is an example of a flippant sort of response of answering the request, but with something lacking the depth the person was asking about.
He probably doesn't mind talking about the game broadly, but it can be a bit much for someone to be annoying about saying it should have been a different genre that they would have enjoyed. I suppose your question could be flipped around, why attend a panel discussing doom if you don't really care for doom?
I don’t think people would go to one unless they cared which is part of why I am confused. Out of context this just comes off as somebody bragging about being an ass to a random fan.
It's important to know your audience. it's also important to know your not-audience.
Naudience.
naughtyence
For when your core demographic eventually ages itself out of your intended demographic, owo
Why can't we have Doom except instead of shooting monsters, we have to manage train schedules? In space?
Sans the lack of shooting, this will serve.
Just play on peaceful difficulty, no biters means no shooting.
There are plenty of guns in that game though
"Sans the lack of shooting" Sans means without
Fuck
There's shooting in Factorio. You can even automate pistols for some reason.
That's what they're saying. Sans means without, so "Sans the lack of shooting" is "Without the lack of shooting"
Still a Satisfactory level of shooting in that game imo
That's what they're saying. Sans means without, so "Sans the lack of shooting" is "Without the lack of shooting"
Depression.
Your mother sucks off train conductors in deep space!
And your father smells of elderberry.
Now go away or I shall taunt you a second time.
https://store.steampowered.com/app/1366540/Dyson_Sphere_Program/
Mmm... there are many games that fit that criteria.
Is it somehow set in a high school and it's all anime?
Can we date the Pinky?
One of the keys to being happy is just letting other people enjoy things.
This! If someone could explain that to republicans, please?!?
You would first have to explain the concept of other people
Pretty interesting tiktok take on this posted earlier today on lemmy about a boomer meme:
https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/just-coffee-black#fnr11
Clever take on that, thanks for sharing.
Oh, that's Jason Pargin. People might recognize his pen name David Wong.
They can enjoy whatever they want, but they have to enjoy them the right way!
Yep and part of that is just letting the things exist and be what they are, even if they aren't for you.
Let DOOM be what it is for those of us who were the right edgy age at the right time to eat it up. Let the calm games be what they are too, without requiring combat mechanics.
People gotta practice letting go. In general. About literally anything. The correlation I see in my acquaintances between not letting go of trivial shit (including the existence of different types of people that like different things) is stark.
Also for those who the “right edgy age” is their whole life.
Yeah that too. Didn't mean to imply otherwise!
In my old age with sophisticated tastes I do enjoy a little Brutal DOOM now and again.
My favorite thing about Sandy Peterson is that he is a Mormon. Not that I like that he's religious. But when he was applying to ID Software to make Doom levels, they were concerned about his religious background. Then he said his famous line "I have no problems with the demons in the game. They're just cartoons. And, anyway, they're the bad guys."
But when they said, "Well at least you're not like one of the crazy ones who carries a card!" And Sandy whips out his Mormon card...
Fuckin' A. This guy is great.
If they want to strike up chats with demons they should give Shin Megami Tensei a whirl.
Oh my god, Mothman can say that to you in 5? 💀
The conversations in SMTV are fantastic.
Isn’t this something that happens in Balder’s Gate 3?
“If into the diplomacy options you go, only pain will you find.”
I dunno man, I'm going through it for the first time right now and I convinced a demon to kill his minions and himself in front of me.
My group cheered when I convinced him to do that.
Probably because it was the first time I didn’t first seduce the enemy
ahem
STOP LICKING THE DAMN THING!
It's a very mixed bag. You can (technically) do a Pacifist Run in BG3 that leans on conversation to keep earning XP in a game that heavily favors combat rewards.
But without prior experience in the story paths, it can be hard to know who can actually be cajoled and who is innately unreconcileable. Lots of NPCs lie or bluff or just bait you into giving up initiative.
You do get more story in dialogue. So if you don't mind the odd ambush or icy rebuff, I'd say there's more to diplomacy than just pain.
The Shin Megami Tensei games have speaking to demons as an important part of the gameplay
And honestly I would not be surprised at all to hear a demon in SMT tell me that my mother sucks cock in Hell. And then I'd say something like, "she's better at it than you" and there's a 50% chance they like my attitude and decide to join my team, and a 50% chance they get offended and take a free turn.
The insult would be especially great coming from one of these guys:
Mara is such an icon
I got super annoyed by how arbitrary all of that was when I first started getting into the series. It really does seem like pure chance sometimes.
But then after a while I started to realize that it fits, because these are sassy demons. Of course it's not going to make sense.
I loved Strange Journey increasing recruit odds for demons of same alignment. Not only does that give it gameplay purpose, it means you can get consistent fusion fodder without the BS, while preventing you from peacing out of every fight.
It's just always a full moon in DOOM
I would also be mad if a demon said that to me. That's not nice :c
I expect a demon to say that it would be weird if the demon said something nicer.
It's a line from the movie "The Exorcist". Coincidentally just watched Ricky Gervais' new standup special that just came out in which he riffs on this exact line.
"Ah, you must be the tiny-dicked one she mentioned yesterday."
After genuinely laughing at this, I anecdottaly remember my father asking, "If your home sick, why are you playing vidya games?"...it was 'Rise of the Triad" at the time...
"To distract myself from feeling sick!"
I'm being healed by the wololo
Thank you for the only logical response.
Eat lead!
I feel the bad feedback trope is inverted in 2025. Devs will release a game, get a solid audience, then completely change mechanics or style or direction for no apparent reason. The audience complains (pointing out what they like in the original release), the devs tell them to kick rocks and the game shrivels up and dies.
cough ^Battlebit^ cough
Agreed
What happened to Battlebit? I didn't play it much, but when I did it was basically just voxel Battlefield 2/3/4. If they pivoted I sure hope it's something stupid like survival extraction zombies or something, just because that would be the lamest possible direction.
If you try to please everyone, you will please no one.
Wasn't the original vision of Doom closer to an RPG than the action game it came out to be? I know I read somewhere (one of the books written about development of the game) it was originally meant to have a bigger story, multiple characters, dialogue, etc.
Maybe? The devs played DnD during development and the chapter text definitely sounds like a GM setting the scene. Supposedly Daikatana is closer to John Romero's vision of
Doom(it was Quake). It's not great though, so if they tried to implement those ideas back with Doom, it probably wouldn't have been as well received. Doom has a sort of K.I.S.S. design.Graphic design is my passion
You gotta understand. This was 1994. Graphic design wasn't invented yet.
That is correct! Look at the Doom Bible
are you thinking of quake?
No. Doom.
Quake never had any vision, originally. That's why it seems so random.
... OK, I read masters of doom. Quake had a vision, that vision became daikatana.
The problem was that Romero couldn't bring everyone on board, because it was too complex and they slapped whatever everyone did together; hence the random design
Check out Doom Bible; Tom Hall's original design document for Doom. One of the first drafts is where what I am talking about came from.
Sure. It can be true for both games :)
Although, I did play and learn about Rise of the Triad, which is what Tom's vision for the Wolfenstein 3d sequel turned into, and it was still a run and gun shooter.
EDIT : I suggested quake because you said you were unsure :)
I know Quake was originally planned as an RPG, and became an FPS because they had to ship "something" and they knew how to do FPS
I kinda like and appreciate the theme that:
Doom feels so much more cathartic if you can gather a setup where all the demons deserve each ounce of pain.
Also more importantly, people should argue in good faith.
Games like System Shock and Deus Ex are examples of "FPS" games with alternatives to shooting. Those kinds of games are completely my jam. I love to find a way to complete the whole level without ever firing a shot. The Deus Ex remake had an achievement for passing a level without ever being spotted in an unauthorized place, never setting off an alarm, etc. It also had one for completing a level without killing anybody. It took 5x as long, but I made sure to get both those achievements on every level.
I'm sure the id software crew knew what they were doing, and the market for demon-murdering FPS games is probably much bigger than the market for First Person Sneakers. OTOH, there are currently a glut of FPS murder games, so there's probably a real niche for someone who's willing to create a game where shooting is possible, and happens sometimes, but stealth and nonviolence is also an option.
bruh "your mom sucks demon cocks"
of course he was mad lmao
I mean, anything beginning with "your mother" can just be dismissed as lazy.
I mean, it's a reference to The Exorcist, so...
Demons aren't known for their creativity.
Your mother can just be dismissed as lazy.
Expected more people arguing about dark souls in here. There's usually a contingent of people going at it over "I want to win on the first or maybe second try" vs "the game is about failing repeatedly until you persevere"
I get the Souls like game type and the appeal. Not for me personally, but respect players will to grind out those victories.
I don't think Sandy did much game design on Doom though. He was mainly a level designer who came in late in the project to finish the levels started by Tom Hall, who had left id software, and to grind out levels for the third episode. By the time Sandy joined id software, Doom (the engine and game mechanics) was already pretty much the game it was going to be.
I should also say that the maps he made for Doom and Doom 2 are by far my least favorite in the game.
Oh hey, a chance to mention my second favorite Doom wad!
This can be overused though. There are dumb mechanics and choices in Fromsoft games that the megafans bend over backwards to defend, and say you're just "not into the genre" if you criticise them... yet millions of people play and enjoy the games but dislike those aspects.
I see a lot of people bitch about invasions, but personally I think surprise boss fight is the best mechanic.
There's literally no reason to bitch about invasions, just play offline.
Valid reason is you want the online features because messages from other players is content. Counterpoint is, pvp is also content. Counterpoint is, people can want one and not the other, and it's not that complicated to just give people a toggle. Elden Ring is not worse because of its improvement over the DS invasion system.
But then you lose things like the messages on the ground (good and bad) and jolly cooperation as well.
Wo Long straight up just lets you turn player invasions off. I would not mind it being an option, personally. I wouldn't turn it off most of the time, myself, but I am always for more options than less.
I, personally, want it to work like DS2 but without Soul Memory. No level or weapon upgrade limits. You could be fresh out of the tutorial and be invaded by some level 347 dude with the strongest weapons and beefiest armor. It would be awesome.
I like all the online features that aren't invasions.
Invasions, however, are simply punishing me for reviving. I don't seek out PvP, which means I don't have all the techniques they use for cheap crits, I don't have a PvP focused loadout (I tend to go for slow weapons and I'm usually not all that optimized), etc., etc., so when I get invaded it's mostly 'Welp, this run is a loss. Better die somewhere I can get back to.' I know I'm going to get one-shotted with some OP weapon from someone who fishes out a lagstab, and it's been that way since Demon's Souls.
...just use the item that nullifies it completely?
invasions havent been proper invasions since DS2
And, we can see a huge set of third party fromsoft games that are generally doing well, even after removing the bad parts. I wonder what that says.
Heh, I've never played one, only the originals and bitched about them. Maybe I should check out the other studios' offerings, but I dunno which.
Tunic is hard, and uses the Estus system, but it doesn’t take much on death.
Another Crab’s Treasure has an accessibility menu that lets you choose to return currency, make Kril invincible, or even give him a gun.
Stellar Blade has an easy mode you can choose, and no death penalties or retrieval. Although, even then, it can be a tough game.
Don't forget the Nioh series, which adds Diablo/Borderlands style loot and skill trees that unlock weapon skills dependent on weapon type rather than the weapon arts specific to each weapon like in Elden Ring. It also has a cool take on the bloodstain mechanic where instead of seeing how a player died, you can see their gear and summon a copy of them to fight with a chance of them dropping some of their gear.
Now I'm imagining Undertale but in the doom format
There's some people doing fallout 1 and 2 in the doom format
Can you link the sauce? That sounds pretty interesting.
Links to the trailer and extended gameplay
(Dev only posts on YouTube)
What automatically started playing in my mind when I saw his name.
Sounds like a couple of randos, no one significant. The perspective is the interesting part, not the person expressing the perspective.
I deleted it because the person who did the tweet is the one who was being interviewed. I didn't read it right
I’m confused. I get the The Exorcist reference but I don’t get why it’s relevant here or why this person is going places where people can talk to them about the game if they don’t want people talking to them about the game.
Literally the first fucking sentence.
What about it? Pointing out what confused me doesn’t make me any less confused.
Let’s break it down. He was a game developer at a game developers conference…you know, where people are there to talk to and ask questions to game developers about the games they develop. He was there specifically to answer questions about his game and someone asked a stupid question about his game and got the answer to that question, because he was, again, participating in an event specifically to be asked questions specifically about his game that he developed and was at a game developers conference to talk about.
I appreciate your attempt to alleviate my confusion but you have really only covered what I already understood. I’m confused as to why this is something somebody would want to tell other people about. Why did they even agree to be on the panel if they were just going to be an ass to people who may have even paid money to stand in line and ask their pedantic questions? At the end of the day it really seems like somebody bragging about taking their annoyance out on a random fan.
Fuck, man, I tap out, you are so fucking dense.
The reference is an example of a flippant sort of response of answering the request, but with something lacking the depth the person was asking about.
He probably doesn't mind talking about the game broadly, but it can be a bit much for someone to be annoying about saying it should have been a different genre that they would have enjoyed. I suppose your question could be flipped around, why attend a panel discussing doom if you don't really care for doom?
I don’t think people would go to one unless they cared which is part of why I am confused. Out of context this just comes off as somebody bragging about being an ass to a random fan.
To me it reads more like an artist who is tired of justifying thier art, and is recalling a time they met notes with honesty.
Are they a fan?
Read the first sentence.
I did. Were they forced to be there?
He's talking to publishers