Leaving food on the counter - the absolute survey
I wonder if this is an US/the rest thing or maybe a meat eater / vegetarian thing. For exact scientific evaluation, please tell in which groups you fit in when commenting.
When the topic food is brought up here or there is always this guy saying "omg you can't leave your food for 30 minutes on the counter because bacteria you know" (exaggerated) and I don't get where that sentiment comes from. Many people agree and say you will get food poisoning from that.
First of all, let me tell you I am not an idiot (at least I hope so) and I know how microbiology works - bacteria is everywhere. I don't doubt your food on the counter will get populated by bacteria, probably more than it would be in the fridge. The question is, is this bad for you?
Now, where I live (central Europe) people are not so fast with that and I wonder why this is. We have a temperate climate which could play a role, so a large portion of the year the temperature is pretty moderate, compared to let's say south US. But apart from that I don't really know.
I am a vegetarian, mostly vegan. I am pretty sure it's not a good idea to leave animal parts out of the fridge, as they are already populated with bad bacteria when you buy them. But for vegetables? Pasta, soup, lasagna? To be honest, I have no shame to leave that stuff on the counter the whole day and even take a spoon from time to time without reheating. Over night I put it of course in the fridge, and in summer when we have 35°C it's also a different thing. But in general I don't really care. I know I cannot extrapolate on humanity, only because ai never felt bad after doing this. But honestly, am I an idiot? Or are you just a bit sensitive? Do you assume everybody eats meats?
Really interested in your ideas. Don't forget to tell the region you are coming from and your diet preferences.
Thank you so much my respected lemmings and pie people
Anecdotal evidence rules! Everyone posting here is alive!
The estimated 420,000 folks who die annually from improper food and water handling refuse to post!!!
Great stuff!
That's an incredibly wide category. Any non-anecdotal data on how many of those deaths were people eating leftovers which they didn't immediately refrigerate?
Mine's anecdotal, but back in the '70s I worked with a guy who would eat the contents of an ashtray in bars, as a party trick!
When he died in his 50s, they never blamed the party trick!
I mean, it wouldn't make sense to blame the party trick if he was like ... ran over by a car.
Okay, but if our standard of evidence is "person did x and died at some point later", that would apply to every human doing absolutely anything.
Yes but counterpoint I once didn't do something and I'm still alive.
…good? Shouldn’t we only take advice from those who survived their own food storage habits?
I'm not, I'm dead. BTW I ate a carrot that had been on the counter for almost an hour.
90% Vegetarian. Chicken and Fish meat only. Canada.
I used to be a chef so I follow food safety guidelines with some wiggle room, since commerical kitchen standards are supposed to protect all kinds of people in a wide variety of circumstances, while I'm fairly healthy and in control of my kitchen/storage.
I don't let food that's supposed to be hot sit at room temperature for more than 2hrs max. I keep most starchy fruit and root veggies in loose, hanging bags and berries/greens/less starchy vegetables in the fridge. I usually only buy meat if I'm using it that day, only keep leftovers in the fridge for two-to-three days, and freeze anything else.
Super basic explanation: Bacteria are on anything not sterile or on fire. Most are harmless on their own but some produce shit that makes you sick. Like botulism is caused by the toxin the bacteria produce and not the bacteria itself, and it's found on vegetables. The bacteria (if they're not endospores) die with heat but the toxin remains. And with food production all mingled, bacteria from meats can be transferred to non-meat products, too. You can even get sick from raw flour.
Cooked foods have more available sugars and nutrients for bacteria to eat, plus warmth and moisture, so it's a great environment for bacteria to break out of hibernation, make babies and poop toxins.
Leaving cooked starchy foods out in ideal bacteria party conditions isn't great, and food poisoning isn't always throwing up and shitting your guts out. Sometimes it's a slight headache or a sore throat, and it can happen days or months after the fact. Ever had a 24 flu? Unexplained weird anxiety and a tummy ache that goes away after a day? Food poisoning happens to about 1/10 people worldwide every year.
But whatever, it's about how much risk you want to take on.
Based on those symptoms I get food poisoning a few times every month :/
When I say some geese are white, it's not the same as saying all white things are geese.
Now I'm hungry :/
This is a thing pushed by American media. It's a Boomer-era panic over summertime picnics and somehow mayonnaise causing potato salad to immediately after 30 minutes outside a refrigerator to become fatal if consumed.
It's also the product of misunderstandings of buying meat at a supermarket, wrongly assuming that meat that is not refrigerated for more than 15 minutes will basically kill you.
Panicking about food poisoning is a moral panic about "bad parenting" and blaming people when it wasn't widely known what causes food poisoning: not washing your filthy hands, cross-contaimination, and poor hygiene overall.
I've lived in West Africa and bought and cooked and safely eaten meat that had sat on a wooden plank lightly covered in flies before I got there to buy it. I survived. Mayonnaise will outlive humanity before it molds or goes bad at room temp.
I've read so many horror stories about the American healthcare system that I always imagined it was out of fear of needing medical attention.
In Newfoundland (and I’m assuming other historically fish-based economies) it was really common before refrigeration existed to split your fish (open it like a book on a drying rack) and heavily salt it to store it long term. The drying process could take days with flies swarming around before getting moved to a shack. You’d then soak the fish before cooking to extract some of the salt. It’s no longer necessary but we still do it for the tradition. I’ve eaten it many, many times and never got sick from it, and I can guarantee it was more than 30 mins between the fish dying and it being salted. Especially these days with the codfish population dwindling, it could take a couple hours sometimes to catch all your fish. We kill the fish as soon as it enters the boat so the first fish of the day could be 3+ hours before being treated at all.
That being said, food safety is still important. I’ve seen some people say it’s fine to leave stuff out for a while if you’re cooking it after because it’ll kill the bacteria when you cook it, but that’s not entirely true. I had to take some food safety courses and was considering being an inspector for a while, I can’t remember it all now but the idea was, bacteria can grow after 30 mins at room temperature and while that bacteria can die at 74°C/165°F, it can grow spores during that time that are heat resistant. You’re not gonna die from food that’s been out for 31 minutes but if you often eat food that’s been sitting out for an hour or more, eventually you might get sick. It’s a game of chance, really. I don’t worry about it too much for myself but if I’m feeding others, I try to stick to the rules. If I get sick from my own carelessness, fair enough, that’s on me. If I get someone else sick though, I’d feel awful.
There are some bacteria that when they die, release toxins that are harmful. So cooking alone isn't enough to render them harmless.
From the Canadian food agency's website:
Staphylococcus aureus, Bacillus cereus, E. coli O157:H7, Clostridium botulinum, Clostridium perfringens and Clostridium difficile.
From Nova Scotia. You got me missing fish and brewis.
I only really do it for Christmas now. It’s one of my favourite parts of Christmas though. Christmas Eve we do fish and brewis, Christmas Day breakfast is fishcakes with the leftover salt fish, potatoes, and drawn butter.
Sounds like you'll all be having a time in a couple months. I wish an early happy holidays to you.
We can agree that hot mayonaise is kinda gross though and a sign that the food was probably neglected in other ways too.
Meat eater from the UK. I'll leave stuff out for varying amounts of time, just smell it before I eat it or have a trial spoon first.
Never had any food poisoning in my life and I have eaten some very questionable things for sure.
In my personal opinion people wildly over exaggerate stuff like this and dates on packaging. My nose knows.
Canadian living in Australia. Omnivore.
Kicker: Food technologist and health inspector. AMA.
Tl;dr: Doesn't matter if it's meat or veg. It goes in the fridge. Follow 2h/4h rule. Edit: Should specify certain veg are potentially hazardous as soon as you cut in to them, like leafy greens. All cooked or partially veg that should be treated like meat.
For work, I'm fairly strict in businesses because the food can go anywhere once it's in the hands on the customer, even in restaurants or at home. You can look at your dine in customers and they all look healthy, but what if they're not, or where do the leftovers go? Do they take it home after date night to share some with little Bobby or Grandma Jane? In business, you do what you can to keep the food as "clean" as you can.
At home and in food businesses, handwashing is ALWAYS a problem. Food handlers are always touching their faces, phones, hip towel they've had on all day, touching a towel they use used to wipe their hands after only rinsing hands in water in the sink, and then touching lettuce for a salad. So even at home, you can cook things to keep bacteria, but is the scoop, container, and your hands clean? Dust, pollen, flies, hairs, etc also carry microbes, and if any of them fall in to food after its been cooked, the bacteria can grow.
It also depends on the type of bacteria, too. Salmonella can infect at an extremely low dose, and Staphylococcus infects at very high doses.
I follow the 2h/4h rule for anything potentially hazardous. Of course, at home, I'm a bit more flexible, usually +/- 1h. If I make myself sick, alright, but there's no way I'm going to make anyone else sick, so if I'm making food for others, I keep to the strict rules. I'm also generally more risk adverse because the thought of anything involuntary coming out either end makes me sick just thinking about it.
I think the amount of time a food stays out is cultural, and if you grew up with it, your gut will have gotten used to the levels of bacteria. Us westerners generally get sick drinking tap water in certain countries when the locals are fine. I used to live with a Japanese lady for a year, and she knew what I did for a living. She always left rice out all night and ate it the next day. One day, she came to me with it and said "does this smell weird?" and it was a definite yes from me. I'd never leave cooked rice out that long and feel comfortable eating it.
So yeah, Bacillus cereus or whatever bacteria present may not occur all the time, but it does happen. Imagine making large batches and serving to large numbers of unrelated people.
Another thing: Cool foods within 2h to a reasonable temperature (I say 40C is fine) before putting it in the the fridge uncovered. If you put hot food in the fridge, you run the risk of warming up the foods already in the fridge.
Wash your hands.
And use a thermometer. Make sure it's clean before you use it.
Thanks for listening to my Ted Talk.
What is this 2h/4h rule of which you speak?
Good question!
The 2h/4h rule (also seen written as 2/4h rule, 2-hour/4-hour rule, etc.) is used for two things: cooling potentially hazardous foods, and potentially hazardous foods left out of temperature control.
Cooling: Foods are to be cooled from 60C to 20C within two hours, and from 20C to 4C within the following four hours. Of course most foods are cooked above 60C, which is the range where pathogenic bacteria don't grow. You want to get food from 60C to 4C within the certain time frame, otherwise it just gives bacteria some good conditions to grow well (food, no other microbes to compete with, etc.). The range of 4C-60C is called the "temperature danger zone." Foods should stay out of here as much as they can.
Food left out of temperature control is something else that many people are less stringent about, but it is also really important (think summer time bbq season). Potentially hazardous foods can be in and out of the fridge for a cumulative total of two hours (example: you take out a food item and put it back in after 5 minutes, now it has 115 minutes left. Do it again tomorrow, it now has 110 minutes, etc.). After the two hour mark up to four hours, you eat it or throw it out. Once it hits four hours, throw it. Someone used milk as good example. Milk in the fridge door goes off far faster than on a shelf. Foods on the BBQ cooked at noon should be eaten or thrown out by 4PM.
There are lots of other little details and exceptions, but this is what applies in the majority of cases. ;)
Thanks this is very informative especially the part about cumulative time outside the fridge.
For other ppl with Fahrenheit brain: the danger zone I'm aware of is from 40 °F to 140 °F, so 2 hours to cool from 140 to 70 °F, and then down below 40 °F in the following 4 hours.
If you've any other questions (this also goes for anyone else), tag me l, respond to this thread, or send me a DM. Happy to provide info on what I know. :)
And thanks for the C -> F conversion!
I have a thermometer with a metal probe. What's your view on how to correctly clean it?
At home, I just use soap, water and a scrubber. As an additional step, I also either wipe it down with an alcohol wipe if I have any laying around, or let it sit in freshly boiled water. I'm not crazy about doing this for everything except with undercooked or raw poultry.
At work, everyone is required by law to implement a sanitising step to ensure any residual harmful microbes are destroyed... but I'd never deter anyone at home from doing this ;) I suggest properly diluted bleach (100ppm, or as per label instructions, freshly made), or quaternary ammonium compound ("quat", also diluted to either 200ppm or as per label). Otherwise, dishwasher.
I've always wondered why eggs can be unrefrigerated in some countries and be safe to eat for weeks...
This has to do with how the eggs are sanitized before they're sold. In places where you need to keep them refrigerated, they've been washed in such a way that a protective layer has been removed. In countries that keep their eggs on the counter, this has not been done.
https://eggsafety.org/us-refrigerate-eggs-countries-dont/
Yeah, that's huge. Outbreaks are becoming more and more common. In Canada and USA, it's a requirement to keep eggs in the fridge, and we just assume chickens = Salmonella, which is also why there is such stress on washing your hands thoroughly after handling raw chicken, cut chicken on a designated poultry-only cutting board, etc.
I think some countries will do a sanitising wash, some just wash with water.
In Australia, Salmonella infections have been increasing, so it's strongly recommended to keep eggs refrigerated. It's not written in to law, but we're a little behind here on a few things. Also consider the differences in handling of eggs at a supermarket, at a farmer's market, or someone selling excess eggs outside their home.
Another thing that needs to be considered: Egg shells are porous. In a supermarket, temperatures don't fluctuate as much as it would at home or in a restaurant, so they're not going to sweat (moisture = nice spot for bacteria to grow). In restaurants and at home, if they're not in the fridge, eggs will be subject to sweating (think hot kitchen during the day, cool kitchen at night; flies, cockroaches, rodents, unclean human hands, etc.) I've seen eggs being sold out of eskies on the side of the road, and I avoid those. The Aussie sun is HOT.
What is an eskie?
Is that like a cooler?
Yup. Aussie slang, sorry. Eskie = cooler.
How many football fields is that?
Couldn't tell you, but it would be more in Canadian football fields. ;)
Vegetarian/Germany. I'll leave food on the counter too as long as I'm still planning to eat it the same day. Never had issues. If I'm planning to only eat it the next day, I'll refrigerate it.
One big reason for the US guidelines being so strict is that they apply to the entire country, which ranges from Florida to Alaska and everywhere in between, and they are worst case. Plus with a massive population fed by capitalist companies that value money over lives and frequently altered food for profit, deaths in a large population are going to happen.
I don't leave stuff that needs refridgeration out for more than a few hours so that it holds up for several days and the time varies widely by food type. Food does need to cool down significantly before refridgerating, although sometimes I will put it in within a couple hours to avoid forgetting. For most foods I have a four hour limit outside the fridge.
Commercially raised chicken has a very high chance of having salmonella. Raw chicken is only out long enough to prepare and cook. Once cooked I don't worry anymore than anything else.
I also use the dates as rough estimates and when to pay more attention to spoilage. I don't worry about safety for canned foods that don't have signs of spoilage, but a soup can a couple years past the best by date has likely probably separated and textures will be off. Dates on bags of chips are a sign they are will be going stale within a few months.
The ignorance in here of how food can go bad is impressive. Refrigerate within one hour. You don’t need to let it cool down before putting it into the refrigerator.
https://www.cdc.gov/food-safety/prevention/index.html
Here's the thing, restaurant level food safety is there to prevent 1 in a million chances of something happening, and usually would only effect those with weak immune systems. It's a huge overabundance of caution born out of a desire to avoid lawsuits, and if you are serving to the public, you should 100% follow it.
But at home? Personally, I think 1 in a million is overly cautious. I'm fine with 1 in 10,000 and trust my immune system to handle it. I am too poor to throw away perfectly good food because I got lazy after dinner and waited 3 hours to put it away instead of 2. I survived all of college off of pizza that was left at room temperature. And yea, you can cite that one case of the guy who got botulism or something after eating a 3-4 day old pizza, but I want you to think about the millions upon millions of pizzas people eat every day without following restaurant-level food safety and realize how crazy it is to base your entire personal food safety philosophy around avoiding extreme edge cases.
Eat day old pizza, thaw your chicken in the sink, store your food in large containers if it makes more sense than small ones. I promise, you will be fine. You are far more at risk driving to the grocery store to get your ingredients than you are from eating food that's been at room temperature for a few hours.
That’s not guidance for restaurants. Anecdotal evidence isn’t fact.
All Q-tip packages say to not put them in your ears because they can cause damage. Hundreds of millions of people around the world use them to clean their ears. But apparently all these millions of people are suffering from hearing damage because "anEcDoTaL EviDEnCe iSN't FacT".
Anecdotal evidence is evidence though. And I think the point of the above post is valid, commercial food service should be held to the strictest guidelines to eliminate as much risk as possible. At home, for myself, I'm not going to worry about it beyond basic common sense and trusting my own senses. I also think it is good to be aware of guidelines and generally exercise caution.
All that said, I am always forgetting to put food away and eat it for lunch the next day anyway - have never had a problem in decades (vegetarian).
I honestly don't see how some of these people manage to get out of bed in the morning. Did you know falling out of bed imparts more kinetic energy to your body than getting shot with a .45ACP?! Best just stay in bed.
Speaking of, people worry about getting shot in the US. Unless you're in a gang or otherwise run with violent people, your odds of dying to a bullet are minuscule compared to dying in a car wreck. Guess which event is deemed probable.
Our risk/reward calculations have gone fucking nuts over the past couple of decades. I've had people call me an idiot online, and insinuated IRL, because I skinny dip in the local creek. No one has ever articulated the risk(s). I'm simply an idiot for taking the, uh, risk?
I knew this thread would bring out people quoting the over engineered specs for restaurant safety. You probably have the best take in this thread.
Thanks for your US input, really appreciate it. But think about it, most of the people that already commented live outside the US. It seems your guidelines are pretty heavy, also another US american commented the guidelines are so strict because they need to apply to the whole vast country.
Are we all really ignorant, or is it possible there is also a cultural difference in play?
Bacteria doesn’t care about culture. The guidelines are pretty simple: bacteria generally grows on food within a temp range.
It’s not like parts of US has more food-affecting bacteria than others.
Other nonsense in this thread: “if it smells ok it’s ok to eat” some bacteria can’t be detected by scent.
Rice, a common food outside of the US, has a particularly bad bacteria that can survive being cooked and should not be left out or even reheated more than once for example.
Well, bacteria actually care a lot about culture if you allow for this pun.
Like I said, the other commenters from the US say the US guidelines are extra strict so infection will be nearly impossible. This post is a pretty small sample, but from what I gather there is indeed a cultural difference. Not in the biology itself, but in what guidelines exist and how they are interpreted. We are of course talking about a private setting at home in this thread, not about restaurants or industrial kitchens.
Honestly, I feel your tone is a bit rude. Make your points, share tour thoughts, argue. But don't act like everybody commenting here is stupid.
Find any sources from your country then?
My Filipino wife leaves rice in the cooker overnight almost every day, reheats it the next. Please explain to her that she died several decades ago from this practice.
Anecdotal. Do your own research if you need too.
https://www.cnet.com/home/kitchen-and-household/leftover-rice-is-a-sneaky-cause-of-food-poisoning-heres-how-to-enjoy-it-safely/
Yes, anecdotal, but several decades of this practice, not only with her but among nearly everyone else in her culture does say something.
I'll go tell her she's dead.
(When I read her stuff like this off lemmy: "Who are these people? What is wrong with them?" She thinks I know you like it's FaceBook.)
No one's saying she's dead. Rice is just a high risk food to leave at room temperature. It's possible she could continue doing this her whole life and never get sick, but it doesn't change the general risk level.
I won't tell you what to do, but here's an article on it by researchers in Malaysia: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0882401023004515
if they ever had a 24hr "flu" or something similar it was likely food poisoning.
You're free to treat food safety the same way anti-vaxxers treat vaccines.
The WHO's manual on food safety here.
I've been out of the loop on this for a while, however— yes, food safety practices differ culturally, but actual regulations are fairly similar. The WTO has recommendations upon which standards for imported food are created, resulting in a lot of uniformity in international food safety guidelines. But! There can be equitablility and equivalence allowances for different practices that achieve the same result. FDA conducts inspections on foreign food manufacturing that allow for these differences.
More countries have implemented HACCP in food industries based on WHO guidelines.
Local differences can still result in products considered safe in one region and not suitable for commercial sale in another. For instance in Canada all commercial eggs have to be refrigerated, in part, because we wash our eggs, which removes the protective cuticle so they're more prone to becoming contaminated. In other countries it's against regulation to wash commercial eggs and they can be stored at room temperature. But! It's a food safety risk to leave a refrigerated egg at room temperature for too long because condensation forms on the shell, creating a favorable environment for bacteria.
Some countries don't allow certain preservatives, additives or chemicals. Borax and lye are used in traditional recipes and legal in some countries, while being against regulations in others.
However, heavy regulations aren't just based on risk to the weakest consumer, but on variance in circumstance. Not everyone who handles food is a perfect professional, equipment breaks down, cold trucks can overheat, and plenty of other shit can go wrong in the supply chain. Your food might already be heavily contaminated by the time it reaches you and that can't always be seen or smelled.
Adhering as well as you can to your local food prep guidelines can be overkill 99/100 times, but that 1/100 can prevent slight discomfort/illness/death. It's about how much risk you want to take on.
It really depends on how hot it is, how much there is, and how big the fridge is. Basically just try not to put so much energy in the fridge that other things start to heat up as well; then everything in your fridge is in the 'danger zone', or at least uncomfortably close to it. Also saves energy.
Personally I always leave things out to cool off and only put it away quicker if there's meat in it.
You can use a temp probe into food to prove that waiting isn’t needed.
Naw, they're right. Cooling food before cold storage is a food safety standard where I live.
I'm a former chef. We tracked our cold storage temps twice a day and had digital displays on some, they absolutely heat up when a lot of energy is introduced relative to the temperature/volume/efficiency of the unit. We cooled everything before putting away, but we had methods and tools for cooling things down quickly if it was going to take more than 30min—1hr.
This is because hot food not only heats up the whole fridge/freezer, it can warm/thaw food next to it, and it raises the humidity in the fridge. While temperatures may not reach the danger zone, more warmth=bacteria replicate faster. Mold still grows in a fridge, so if it's even a little bit more warm and moist, food's going to go bad a little faster.
IDGAF. My wife leaves dinner wrapped up on the table or on the stove overnight all the time. Only thing I put away immediately is seafood.
According to all that, we should be dead, several dozen times a year. Do explain. Perhaps our ignorance is lining our stomachs?
At this point you should do your own research, nothing I say will change your mind.
My siblings and I are the same way. We've all got iron stomachs. When we share leftovers with friends, they get upset stomachs, but we're never careful with food being left out too long, and we never have bowel issues with it.
Probably have some sort of ungodly tolerance built up for it, parents were poor while raising us and we ate whatever was available.
US. Omnivore.
The food safety recommendations and regulations for commercial Kitchens are there for a reason. That being said, a home setting is very different than a commercial setting.
The potential for impact is much greater in a commercial environment due to the volume of food and customers served.
Believe it or not, a home setting is more controlled than a commercial setting: There are (generally) fewer food handlers, service personnel and “customers” touching or breathing on the food/dishes/equipment. And whether any of those individuals pose a disease vector risk is fairly well understood within the household, which can be mitigated on a more granular level. Because you are only serving one table instead of many at different stages of readiness, there is smaller variety of foods in preparation at once, fewer steps in the prep process happening simultaneously, and dirty dishes are only handled after the food has been prepared and eaten, reducing the risk of cross contamination. There are so many vectors for contamination in a commercial setting that the controls are in place to stop little issues from turning in big problems.
All this is to say that I am generally okay leaving finished foods out on my counter for extended periods of time if it has been freshly and properly prepared, or I plan on finishing or pitching it that day.
However, your examples baffle me. Leaving pasta out all day just seams like an unpleasant eating experience, indifferent of the health implications. Soup and lasagna? I can’t imagine wanting either of those early enough in the morning to prepare them so that I could leave them out “all day”. If I’m grabbing leftovers from the fridge, I wouldn’t leave it out. It’s already got a container and a space on the shelf; I just put the rest back where it came from after I take my serving. Sitting on the counter isn’t going to improve it.
Vegetables of course live their entire pre-picked lives without refrigeration and are generally fine on the counter when fresh. I would refrigerate prepared fresh vegetables if I knew I wasn’t going to finish them or they were particularly moist, like cut tomatoes or a dressed salad, or known to turn quickly like avacado.
I like to find a balance between being worried about bacteria and trusting my immune system to deal with anything that comes along. However, my immune system tends to over-react to things that aren't a threat (allergies to cherries, peaches, cats, dogs, kangaroos, pollen, dust, etc.) so I'd be pretty pissed if it couldn't handle some bacteria.
I'll cut the bad parts off an old pepper and still put the good parts on my omelette in the morning. I'll cut the moldy bit off a piece of cheese and use the rest. Bread...nope. I can handle it being a bit stale, but moldy is too much. I'm not afraid of bread mold, but I don't like the taste.
Last year I tossed the Thanksgiving turkey out the next day because my wife and I forgot to deal with it and left it sitting on the kitchen table next to the radiator. That seemed to me like it would be a bit too much of a challenge to my immune system.
Meat eater, cooler climate in Australia.
We generally put things in the fridge but are also pretty casual about leaving things out.
There's a lot of variables that would effect my inclination to consume something that had been left out for whatever period of time.
Cooked Rice is almost a perfect growth medium for bacteria. My Mrs cooks a batch in the rice cooker, doesn't refrigerate it, but consumes it all within 36 hours. That said, it has just been boiled so you're starting with almost no bacteria.
Dairy is the worst. Letting milk get to room temperature and leaving it for a half hour or so is going to dramatically reduce it's lifetime even if you put it back in the fridge afterwards.
That doesn't sound right to me.
Rice is serious business in our house.
All rice cookers will switch to a "keep warm" setting after the normal cooking cycle.
I don't think it's hot enough to prevent the growth of bacteria, although I'm not sure about that.
It is hot enough for the rice to start to dry out. After a few hours it would be "tough" instead of "soft and fluffy". After 24 hours it would be inedible.
As I said we just leave it at room temperature in the rice cooker and heat it up in the microwave as necessary. The texture and taste and... toxicity I guess, is fine for 36 hours. So if you cook it this morning then use it all before tomorrow evening.
While you've been fine and might continue to be fine for the rest of your life, rice is considered a high risk food when it's cooked and left out.
For others, please don't take this advice, especially if this hasn't been your usual practice. People have different immune systems and can build up a tolerance to their own practices. Reheated rice is a major cause of food poisoning, to reduce the risk it should either be super hot or cold, limiting the time spent in between.
The bacteria that live on rice create endospores and lay dormant even in dry conditions. They can survive the cooking process and once they become active, they create a toxin that can't be eliminated at cooking temperatures.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7913059
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0882401023004515
Hah. Ok. I'd heard about rice being "super high risk" in the past, and your comment encouraged me to look into it a little more.
Firstly, obviously this, nor my earlier comment is not "advice". I'm not sat here advising people to eat toxic rice. Everyone is responsible for their own decisions. I don't care what everyone else is doing, I'm merely curious as to how my we manage to avoid getting food poisoning from every meal.
Now, I don't eat rice. I've been following a carbohydrate restricted diet for years because I have T2D. My partner is the boss about rice in our house. Yes, she's from south east asia. We're team thai-grown-jasmine when it comes to rice.
We also live in a mild climate, so in our kitchen during winter it would probably be 12 degrees celsius for 12 hours or so overnight, and rarely exceed 22 degrees celsius during the day. During summer there's an additional 4 degrees to those numbers. We don't use any heating or cooling in our house. I feel like this is certainly relevant.
I actually just called her to check on the timeframe she would follow. It's more nuanced than I had previously considered. She said that in winter she would still eat rice after 36 hours at room temperature. However (!) based on my own observations I think the texture has become more rubbery by that time, so while she might do that on occasion I don't think it's that common. I think she just naturally cooks enough for this meal and the next meal, but sometimes there's some left over.
She also said that in summer 24 hours is probably the limit.
I'm not here to police yours or your partner's eating habits.
I saw the statement:
And provided a counter point. I had to train cooks and dispell so many food and hygeine myths. Maybe I get a twitch when I read that kind of thing.
Ideally, rice should be cooled down within 1-2hrs and stored in the fridge. 12°C is balmy for bacteria.
American/meat-eater
Bread stays out but is wrapped
Butter stays out in a butter bell (that's not a common thing in America BTW but they should be)
Some sauces and condiments and such that are packed full of salt and vinegar and such stay out
Leftovers and such go into the fridge after a few minutes to a few hours, there's not exactly a hard rule here, just kind of based on what feels right and whenever we get around to it. Overnight is too long, with few exceptions if it's been out that long we'd probably throw it out.
One exception to that is if I make stock, there's a good chance that's going to sit out for a good while to cool down. It takes a while to get a big pot of liquid down to a reasonable temperature to put in the fridge. I also figure it's been simmering for several hours, so odds are there's no bacteria alive in it, so I throw a lid on it to try to keep it that way, especially when I do it in the pressure cooker because it's basically been autoclaved at that point and it's staying in a pretty damn close to totally airtight vessel.
Most vegetables and fruits are fine out on the counter for at least a day or two, and some will last weeks or months depending on temperature, humidity, how much light they get, etc. but most of them last a lot longer in the fridge so that's where they go. Onions, garlic, potatoes, pineapples, and bananas always live outside of the fridge. Other things like apples, citrus, tomatoes, peppers may go either way depending on how fast I'm planning to use them and how much fridge space I have. Cut-up produce always goes in the fridge.
I am you, and most of my friends (American) are kind of grossed out by me. Lots of people live by the “expiration” date on the package, regardless of what condition the food is in. Food doesn’t just instantly convert to arsenic the moment the date passes, idiots. Many refuse to even eat leftovers. The amount of food waste is appalling.
Before expiration / best by date: eat without a second thought.
After the expiration / best by date: give it a sniff or a nibble first.
Exactly. Things last a lot longer than people think.
Hello fellow butter bell enthusiast.
So as a person who's been in that back area of a restaurant, we all know the danger zone is anything above 40F to 140F and the closer you are to that median temperature that median temperature the faster that bacteria multiplies, meat, vegetables, doesn't matter, as long as the temperature's right and there's enough moisture there, they'll breed like bacteria and there are bacteria that leaves toxins behind that will also make you sick.
So given that, I've always put stuff into the fridge as soon as were done eating generally following the two hour rule and it's been sitting out for more than four hours without refrigeration, I'll usually toss it.
Omnivore, European. I leave my food outside if I plan to eat it the same day, and wait till it has reached room temperature before I put it in the fridge. Most of the time we leave food in a small room we have which is slightly cooler than living room (16ish degrees in winter I think) and it stays good for as long as there is food left. I have also eaten food that was left in kitchen at room temperature for about two days, but only once or twice with highly acidic food (chili or bolognese).
As long as it smells good and looks good, it’s good. Never had food poisoning in my life.
US omnivore.
Most fruit stays on the counter in the fruit bowl (except berries, I want more than a day to eat them), bread, and all unprocessed veg (besides lettuce, again I find it goes bad fast) stays out.
Anything that I have prepared and cooked goes in the fridge when we are done eating it or when it's approaching room temperature. Sometimes a little warmer if I'm impatient. If we had a pot luck / carry in food sometimes sets out a couple hours NBD, still fridge after.
Red meat gets salted or seasoned and sits out to approx room temp before cooking if I think about it. I don't do that from frozen (I use sous vide for that defrost), with very large cuts (rib roast for example) or with chicken because I have never noticed it cook unevenly.
The only food that ever really sits out on the counter after preparation is rice or baked goodies (banana bread, cookies, etc.). Anything that sits out overnight is now trash except pizza if it was a late night snack. Anything out is quite rare anyway since we usually clean the kitchen before bed.
Edit: Eggs of course in the fridge, they are washed. Butter also fridge, I know it can stay out but I usually like it harder, we aren't spreading it that often compared to measuring.
General rule: If the store I bought it from was refrigerating it, so am I.
Dutch omnivore. I will sometimes leave something on the counter overnight. Usually when I made a big pan of something which I can't fit into the fridge. But it's something that will be reheated/boiled. Like a soup or stew. My wife complains about it everytime I do that though 😄
My ex would do the same thing with pots of rice. She would usually get diarrhea and blame it on anything but the rice.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micromort?wprov=sfla1
I'm unable to find micromort numbers for food-poisoning or food preservation techniques, but my wild guess is that leaving an average vegetarian leftover overnight at an average kitchen temperature on the averagely cleaned kitchen counter, unrefrigerated and even not covered at all, then eating it the next day (maybe reheated) is gonna be negligible amounts of risk compared to many many many other risks people take everyday without blinking their eye about it (such as walking, driving, climbing stairs, swimming, drinking alcohol, using cleaning products, inhaling/eating environmental pollution, not washing hands after toilet, ...)
I leave food on the counter all the time, because If I'm still hungry in a little while, I don't want my food cold. I have never in my life gotten food poisoning from it.
We lean towards vegetarian, minimum meat consumption for both health and environmental reasons.
As far as leaving food out…only foods that don’t require refrigeration. Bread, snacks, etc. Anything cooked that is still hot will be allowed to cool before going into the fridge, no need to make the fridge work harder, but it doesn’t stay out long enough to be a food safety problem.
Uncooked foods that are dangers to bacteria growth like meats and the like don’t sit out ever or are carefully thawed. Eggs? They’re fine out of the fridge, just crack them individually into a small bowl to make sure they’re good before use. I think I’ve only ever had one bad egg left out and it was pretty obvious, they just last a lot longer if refrigerated. Greens and other veg just wilt and dehydrate if not used quickly unless refrigerated, but leaving them out isn’t an issue. They get washed before use.
Anyway…I do most all the cooking and take food safety seriously. I’ve had one serious bout of food poisoning from a restaurant and that made death seem like a viable option vs the misery of constantly evacuating everything in your body for a few days, and the memory stuck with me. You can cook great food that’s been prepared to the correct and safe temperature, and I have little issue with foods that have been cooked like this, left out to cool and refrigerated, then reheated to a proper temperature.
Also… thinking rice or pastas are fine left out because no animal proteins, think again.
From the CDC website:
“Bacteria can multiply rapidly if left at room temperature or in the "Danger Zone" between 40°F and 140°F. Never leave perishable food out for more than 2 hours (or 1 hour if exposed to temperatures above 90°F).”
https://www.cdc.gov/food-safety/prevention/index.html
Well the US guidelines don't add very much to the discussion tbh, especially meat vs. veggies. It shows however why US Americans are so sensitive about this topic.
Also they tried to basically shut down the CDC last weekend with mass firings they had to walk back
South US, but in the mountains where it is much cooler. SO is vegetarian and I am an omnivore but skew vegetarian, especially at home. I leave heated things out to cool from hot to warm before putting in the fridge. About an hour, maybe 2 when I am being forgetful. Anything over that is taking risk. I’ve had a few nasty bouts of food poisoning before so I skew on the safe side.
My mom on the other hand grew up very differently. Lives by the beach in a much warmer more humid climate. She’ll leave moist dump cakes unrefrigerated for days. She’s more homeopathic than me, says the spices have been used for ages to preserve food. She’s not wrong, but you have to throw in a lot more cinnamon than what our Americanized palate is accustomed to. We are very careful about what we eat when we visit, and even then, small bites to try first.
It really depends on the moisture content; like the aforementioned soup. One thing that all organisms need to function is water, and soup is wet.
The vegetables are still alive and their 'immune' systems are still functioning (ish) so they aren't as susceptible to rot as actually dead things are, like meat (which also has a high moisture content).
Cooked food is not sterile; there are types of fungus and bacteria (like the plague!^1^) that create 'cysts' which are impervious to normal cooking temperatures. The only way to kill them is the soak the medium (i.e. your lasagna) in pure ethanol or burn it in a reallllyy hot fire. If you're not in the habit of soaking everything you eat in ethanol or eating charcoal, then they will eventually start multiplying again. They're basically the reason things go bad.
The bread I buy never goes in the fridge because I eat it fast enough that I don't really need to worry about it. Same probably goes with your pasta and other counter food. There is bacteria and fungus growing in it and on it, but it's not enough to really do anything. By the time there would have been a potentially dangerous amount of life inhabiting your counter food, it's already in your small intestine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microbial_cyst
*I live in Canada btw, but most of the places I've lived in have had pretty much the same internal environment. ~21°C and fairly dry. Though I do lose the odd box of spinach if it freezes on the way home. 🫠
I think context is also important. At home I eat all kinds of things that have been all kinds of places for various amounts of time. I grew up eating fruit straight off the vine after a quick shine with my shirt (and nectar in the case of honeysuckle).
When I'm handling food for my patients I take no chances. Even the ones without specific immune disorders are under high bodily stress while being exposed to shit that's basically been bred for resistance to antimicrobials. My husband has only had one hospital job but has been working in bulk production kitchens longer than my entire career in healthcare. If one item does go bad it can spread to the others pretty quickly. Another issue is that while I wash my hands plenty at home and also so compulsively at work that I have to use dimethicone lotion to keep my skin together, I can't actually guarantee that my coworkers do. Wish I could, but I'm not pressing my ears to the bathroom door in the breakroom to do it. I know I washed my hands before touching the patients' breakfasts but I'm too busy focusing on my own job to tell you for certain that anybody else did so yeah there really might be something growing on those trays an hour or two later.
So at home, no I don't really care. But in high volume kitchens and institutional environments it's important enough that my husband actually knows all the specific times and temperatures off the top of his head.
Northern Europe. Omnomnomnivour.
Sometimes forget to put the lunch boxes in the fridge over night. No problem eating them the day after.
If I thaw meat I don't have an issue with it being room temperature for a few hours before I cook it. Better than somewhat frozen.
That being said if I ran a restaurant I'd be much more careful. Best way to scare off customers and get the food safety inspector to hit you with his clipboard.
Omnivore, southeast USA.
When I worked in food service, I was taught that it takes four hours at room temperature for bacteria to reach dangerous levels in food, so that's what I go with. I assume there's other factors at play, but four hours is easy to remember and apply and I don't like to take chances with that stuff.
But I guess it makes a really big difference if it is chicken or carrots, right?
I think they're referring to cooked food. In that case it's about the same, cooked carrots left at room temperature will grow bacteria/fungi about the same as cooked chicken.
Salt/acid/moisture content are factors, too. Like a piece of cooked, brined chicken in an acidic sauce can be safer than just a bowl of cooked, mushy carrots.
I believe that guideline is only for perishable food like cooked foods, meat, etc. For shelf-stable things like bread and most fruits/veggies, it's basically "do they look OK?"
Mostly vege/france. I don't mind leaving food out in the open, especially cakes, pies and cookies. I can confirm that sometimes a few days out are too much, but as long as you check for weird scent/look, you'll be ok. My parent recently ate boiled meat over the course of a week without putting it in the fridge, leaving it in its pot and reheating each day, they threw the last bit because it smelled bad, but they had no problem before that.
Omnivore/Central Europe:
I am pretty special in my needs because i hate eating leftovers when they were out "too long" (where "too long" is a very random amount of time), so i normally wait until the food is room temperature; if i don't plan to eat within the next few hours it goes into the fridge pretty much instantly. But i know that this is my personal spleen and that it would be fine much longer.
Bread, any fruit, onions, potatoes, garlic and so on stay outside tho.
It's more important to make sure that your kitchen and cooking utensils are clean, and anything that was used for preparing meat doesn't get reused; and the dishes must be heated properly - that alone would mean it's probably save to stay out overnight if it's not 30°C in the kitchen in the midst of summer.
I have a degree in microbiology and I am not sure. I could look it up but im comfotable with my gut. Raw food that needs to be refrigerated we don't leave out for any longer than necessary and use cooler bags and such. Cooked food we won't put in the fridge till its almost room temp
Europe. Technically meat eater but not an "identity" and generally prefer veggie.
This rule makes no intuitive sense, or factual sense. It sounds like one of those US-specific things that have spread through "everyone knows" like the 3 second rule.
We have other nonsense rules here, basically.
Vegetarian (nearly vegan)/not doxxing myself because I piss many people off unintentionally. Flies are my most consistent concern. So long as the food was shielded from insects and extended temperatures above 25c/70f, I really don’t care to put it away urgently. Tupperware is just exhausting to use. Soup standing overnight isn’t a strange sight, but I eat my leftovers promptly
On the counter is fine for quite a while. I feel that putting warm food in the fridge will hurt the texture, so I always wait until it's room temperature and usually a few hours longer before storing it.
So for the remainder of the day on the counter is fine in my book. Overnight it goes in the fridge.
Special case: Taco meat. I usually put the pan back in the (now cold) oven mostly to save space, and leave it there overnight. When I reheat taco meat I use enough heat to probably kill any bacteria anyway.
I’m sure you’ve heard this so many times before. It’s not necessarily the bacteria itself, but their waste products that put you at risk. I’m not sure what the salt content of taco meat is, and if your taco meat is dry or wet, but I do think you may be putting yourself at risk in this particular instance.
Vegetarian, Western Europe, very temperate.
I wouldn’t leave things out of the fridge past a couple of hours, a whole day is enough to get in trouble, even for non animal products. Pasta especially is susceptible to very fast acting bacteria that can literally kill you past a day out of the fridge.
France/omnivore (with a slight pref for veggies).
To me it’s lack of education (fear of bacteria is not a bad thing, over-exaggerating it and forgetting or whole body is made to deal with them and some are even legit part of our body is… excessive), and a cultural thing.
I mean, in the US for example they will even shrink wrap individual fruits because ‘food exposed to the air is bad’ even though fruits have developed their skin just for that purpose, and even though most of the fruits sold over there have been so intensely chemically treated they could last for centuries before starting to decay (there may be hint of sarcasm here, just a hint).
Also, I wonder how many of those ‘worried persons’ systematically wash their hands before they grab any food? The same hands they grab their bacteria saturated phone with all day long, or pick their nose, or scratch their balls (or whatever part of the body they need to scratch), or shake hands with other people (whose personal hygiene and what they do with their hands they have no idea)… The risk is at the very least as high to grab some nasty thing just by not washing one’s hands before eating and preparing something to eat.
On the other, being French, I have no shame in admitting I appreciate some of our cheese that don’t fear being left to… age, attacked by bacteria ;)
My opinion is that food should not be left out in the air without any reason (it’s messy and risky) but depending the food it can. But it certainly is not a matter of leaving it 30 minutes, unless weather conditions are very specific. Never heard that 30 minutes remark, btw.
Thanks for your answer. I exaggerated with the 30 minutes, I will edit the post to make that clear.
Depends on the food but most goes in. In addition to cooling, the refrigerator is critter proof (ants, mice). Not bread not catsup but most all leftovers
Rural US, no dietary restrictions, 40, married with children
Omnivore.
Bread cools overnight on the counter after cooking then wrapped and stays on the counter.
Butter in a closed container, for however long until it's all used.
Pizza overnight if it doesn't have meat
Cut onion, if I cut some for breakfast I will just turn it cut side down on the cutting board if I'm gonna use the rest soon, like at supper same day.
If beans are left out too long I do the "hard boil for 5 minutes".
I do make fermented beverages and pickles, those ferment at room temp for days to weeks.
Another factor that hasn't been mentioned: I'm young and healthy, I don't want to have salmonella, but I'm pretty sure I'd probably be okay. If I am sick or cooking for people who have weak immune systems for whatever reasons, I do much stricter than for my lazy bachelor self.
Otherwise, I live by "if it smells and looks good, it's probably good". Obvious conditions apply of course, in hot, humid weather, I'm trying to leave nothing out, in cold weather, I'll happily eat cold pizza from the day before.
Vegetarian. Northern Europe.
I’ll leave food on the counter until it cools down. Don’t want to bring the temperature up in the fridge too much, and if the food is hot you risk breaking the glass shelves in the fridge from the temperature shock.
Never had any problems. Generally food will get reheated so that kills bacteria. Obviously spoilage produces toxins over time but that doesn’t happen that fast.
I’m generally more casual with it in the winter than in the summer as things spoil faster when it’s warm.
Omnivore, Netherlands. Forty years ago my parents had only one small fridge, so most of our food was kept in the cupboard or in the cellar. The fridge was for open containers or jars, some meat, eggs and margarine. Meat was deli meat for sandwiches, meat for dinner usually came from the freezer in the morning and was thawing on the counter all day. So I'm with you on this I guess.
I though eggs on the counter was the way it was done in europe and that the eggs aren't scrubbed of their coating like in the us. Also netherlands. I mean its not norway but how cool did the cellar stay in the summer. I feel like it could almost be a fridge.
The cellar would be 10-15 degrees in summer. Eggs could go there just as well, but I guess they were kept in the fridge for convenience since it was right next to the stove. The same for cheese.
Ants are everywhere in south east asia so I'd never or build a little tower with a water bowl underneath it.
Omnivore, Northern Spain.
I don't worry too much but that depends mostly on the season because my main concern are usually house flies in the summer.
I don't usually let stuff sit uncovered for more than 1 hour but I've occasionally left some covered things sit for hours in winter.
I keep my lunch in my work bag all day, not in the fridge, unless it's salad where it should be crisp.
I did the European thing where I kept eggs on the counter. It's best that way. Real unwashed farm eggs, not shit from the grocery store.
American omnivore.
The only reason I leave things out is if they'll get soggy in the fridge. This generally applies to pizza and biscuits (in a bag). My gluten free bread is refrigerated because it gets moldy before I finish it, regular bread is on the counter.
If I happen to forget to put away leftovers, I'll refrigerate them when I get to them as long as they haven't dried out or anything. I've woken up in the middle of the night to do that.
It would bother me at a restaurant or store, since that is proper, legal food safety shit. If it needs to be kept cold, it can't be out of cold for more than 30 minutes.
However, at home? I don't care too much. Unless it's been out all day, I'll just nuke it and that should kill anything.
Assuming you mean microwaving... Microwaves sadly aren't magical, their sterilizing capabilities are mostly just the heat. So make sure to evenly heat it through, the same way you'd do it on the stove.
Also central Europe, no special diet.
Really the fridge is only for ingredients. Only when I know that I won't eat the food that I prepared in the next two days does it go back in the fridge. But in practice most prepared food will sit on the counter for up to two days while I slowly whittle it down.
Couple stories for you. Had a tray of 100 hot wings we ordered one night drunk. Left it on the counter for 3 days straight eating out of it until they were gone. They never were brought above or below room temperature for that entire time. We didn't die.
I also regularly order too much food. Forget to fridge the leftovers, and still eat the crap the next day. I've yet to be food poisoned from this.
Maybe I am just lucky.
While this is a fun anecdote, yes you are just lucky you didn't get a food borne illness.
It’s junk food. Pizza is like that too by being junk food it gets magical powers to stay on the counter until finished
From the USA, it is important to understand that FDA guidelines are generally geared to ensure a near impossibility for food-bourne illness. That includes people with compromised immune systems and gets applied to all food even if the odds are minimal that something will happen. For instance, a lot of fine dining chefs will forgo minimum cooking temperatures for some ingredients in order to provide a different product.
So, in a private setting and with healthy people, the FDA guidelines are likely overkill
I'll leave sauces and soups out overnight without worrying because they've been cooked for long periods of time and have a lid on.
But anything fresh especially salads and lightly cooked veggies I'll want in the fridge immediately, because those few hours out of the fridge make them limp and reduces their long term life.
But I'll happily open a container of leftover pasta that's been in the fridge 2 weeks! I know that wasn't the question but I'm dying to know how long people keep leftovers in the fridge. Vegan btw.
I didn't real the post BC I'm tired but I would like to say some places i worked in NYS had food guidelines for vegetables, meats, etc., and for seafood it just said "GET REAL" in all caps and I always read it in a sarcastic voice in my head lol.
I habituality leave pizza on the counter for breakfast the next morning but that's about the exception. Everything else I try to refrigerate before going to sleep for the night. I eat mostly veggie.
I'm vegan. Generally speaking, whatever we cook for dinner gets left out overnight. I'll chuck the pan in the oven so the cats don't lick it, but unless it's hot/summer then food is usually fine at room temp for 24hrs. Been doing this for 20+ years.
I am the same. Vegetarian.
Unless the food contains uncooked dairy (milk, cream etc) or eggs (home made mayo) it can usually stay in a covered dish over night without refrigeration. It was the same at my parents house, except for fish and meat dishes.
Never had a food borne illness from my own cooking, my parents' or the left overs.
Ive left excess pasta on the stove overnight, I've left pizza open on the counter and eaten it the day after (though if there's only a couple slices they stay in the microwave on a cutout of the box ready to be nuked in the morning/next days lunch)
Still alive, still haven't given myself food poisoning