The Scrooge McDuck avatar lighting a cigar with a dollar note makes me think this was either satire to begin with, or the original poster has lost any and all contact with reality.
Personally, I'm so sick of people saying "it's parody/satire!" That's on the same level as fucking with people, then laughing "it's just a prank, bro!"
There's so many garbage takes and smooth-brained people believing the dumbest shit now, despite having all collective human knowledge at our fingertips... If your super funny satire is indistinguishable from these, it adds absolutely nothing.
The internet has weirdly forgotten about Poe's Law. There are enough fucked up people in the world that you just can't reliably determine if an outlandish opinion is satire or not.
I worked craft beer sales for a hot minute. Place was a disaster, so I was already looking for a new job anyway. Labor day rolls around, and I inform my bosses A MONTH OUT that I will be taking a week off at the end of August to go on vacation. They approve it, all is well, everything's great, I get back to work. The week I leave, I remind them that I'll be gone for a week, I won't be available for work things, and that I'll see them next week. They say cool, tell me to have a great time, and I clock out for the day.
9:01AM, the day I leave, I get a text. "Hey Dogiedog64, when are you coming back? We need to have a chat about some things." I don't bother responding, since I'm on vacation, and moreover, I'm driving on the highway. The day passes, I get where I'm going, but it's past work hours, and I want to enjoy my vacation. THE NEXT DAY, they call me. 9:01AM. I miss it, they leave a message and another text to the effect of "Call us back. It's important." I don't. I'm on vacation, they KNOW I'm on vacation, and it can wait.
6PM rolls around, and I get a text. "Dogiedog64, since you didn't call us back today, we're unfortunately going to have to let you go. Your performance wasn't cutting it and we've gotten numerous customer complaints about you." I know for a fact this was bullshit, as I had done the rounds before I left, and all my customers loved me and our beer, but hated our managers and distribution scheme.
Now, you may ask "what was the point of that story?" It's simple: companies will find a reason to fire you for nothing, no matter how well you lay out boundaries or plans, so don't bother treating them like they're special. I lost my job, but I did nothing wrong; I set clear boundaries and expectations, with ample documentation, notice, and approval, and they STILL fired my ass.
So yeah. Take your PTO. It's YOURS. Go on that vacation, leave your work life AT WORK, and have a good time. Your coworkers will be fine without you, and if the company collapses while you're gone, they deserved to collapse anyway. Life is simply too short to spend it all slaving away for a company that hates you.
Is there an ending to that story? If I was in that situation, I would have ignored it all and then came back the day I said I'd come back and act like everything was normal, make up something about how my phone got broken or stolen or something.
At the very least I hope you tried to get unemployment or some such!
The ending was pretty underwhelming. I wasn't employed long enough to get unemployment, and haven't been able to get another job since. Now back at school pursuing a new degree.
Its not cowardice to avoid sharing Personal Information on the internet. There's a real possibility to be doxxed just by sharing which place you worked at, and were fired for what reason. Not everyone is comfortable doing that.
🤣 yes, I’m sure this white dude in Baltimore who didn’t bother taking any action to fight back against the shitheads who fired him for taking a vacation from his craft beer job is involved in some very serious action requiring OPSEC.
I swear to god as soon as I’m proven wrong I’ll eat an entire tree on video and then delete my account.
That sounds like cut and dry wrongful termination. You should have sued, if not for rightful compensation then to make sure that they think again before they pull the same shit with other employees.
Over here in Germany where everybody has at least 3 weeks paid time off (being ill does not count to this contingent btw), it is common that leaves are planned in the beginning of the year for larger vacations, so there are no collisions.
Also, if you have children you have priority during school breaks for paied leaves.
This concept could be copied by us employers also, I wonder why not? Maybe because this way you can pressure your employees with your vacation as leverage
And in this system, it is common courtesy to make effort to make sure your team has as few problems as possible from your absence. Of course it is also common courtesy that you are not contact for anything work related during your vacation time.
In the Netherlands we have laws in place to ensure what is called "good employership" and "good employeeship". It's basically the minimum of what you should expect from each other in matters of courtesy. Good employership as a minimum states an employer should be thoroughly, not abuse his powers as an employer, substantiate big decisions regarding employees, live up to expectations, treat all employees equal and provide good insurance.
Good employeeship is seen as being at work at agreed upon times (this includes taking PTO), doing suitable work, being honest, loyalty to a certain degree like not starting a company without consultation and "stealing" work from the employer, and descretion/secrecy regarding company sensitive information.
It's all very general, and most of the time further explained either in additional laws or in a "CAO", a collective working conditions agreement which is reviewed periodically with the unions (about 70-75% of employees have such an agreement).
if my compensation includes paid time off, I am taking it. my notifications are not requests when the date is weeks or months out. it is informational only.
i do not and never have accepted blackout day etc.
i’m honest with this during the hiring process and it’s, honestly, worked out just fine. especially if you frame it as a part of forward thinking communication and the manager is trying to pretend they know what they are doing.
If communicated and part of the deal, great. I personally think that an employment benefits both parties. And with the mentioned curtisyz that works well.
For example, I leave early for appointments, in the last weeks we had some troubles, so dinner for the hole family was on the employer, a while week of takeouts.
So, if my employer tells me that my vacation colides with a project, I am certain that he checked every possibility, and we try to find solutions, like interruptijg the vacation for a day and taking part in meetings from my hotel room.
And if I can not trust my employer enough, then I move on. I am in the lucky position that the stuff I do, most people can't.
The "If" is exactly the problem in America. Most countries with mandatory vacation specifically incentivise employees to use it all (little to no carry over, no payout at the end of year).
The entire purpose is that you use it all and are refreshed and more invested in your job.
You'd get looked at funny if you declared you planned on using your PTO, that's like saying you plan on taking a lunch break EVERY DAY. It's just expected
Over here in Germany where everybody has at least 3 weeks paid time off (being ill does not count to this contingent btw), it is common that leaves are planned in the beginning of the year for larger vacations, so there are no collisions.
Also, if you have children you have priority during school breaks for paied leaves.
This concept could be copied by us employers also, I wonder why not? Maybe because this way you can pressure your employees with your vacation as leverage
And in this system, it is common courtesy to make effort to make sure your team has as few problems as possible from your absence. Of course it is also common courtesy that you are not contact for anything work related during your vacation time.
All of this is possible in North America, but you need a union job.
My day-job is a unionionized Managed Services gig subsidiary of a larger company. The rest of the company fits a stereotype we see in the deLoittes and IBM Pro Servs of the world, but the union contract gives us a sane bit of breathing room:
9x9 'compressed' time so you get one day off each week regardless
statutory holidays are sacred
OT for weekend work, but it quickly goes double-time so it's rare; and holidays are 2.5x quickly
standby time is paid. Call-outs are paid.
mandated remote work capability. It's in the union contract, guys, so we can Work From Home Office or Work From HQ as best suits us
The combo of compressed time, stats and careful placement of my 21 vacation days this year will give me 7 carefully-placed weeks off; it's not contiguous, but it's really great.
My previous employer in the US was pretty liberal with their time off policy. I would just submit a request, and my manager would approve or not approve. 100% of the time when they didn't approve, it was because the email had gotten lost in their in box, so I just pestered them about it. It was assumed that employees would check with project managers of projects they were on to make sure their vacations wouldn't cause problems for the projects - which basically just meant that I would tell my PMs that I was planning to take X days off about a month from now, and they would say "thanks for letting me know, I'll work that into the project schedule!"
I don't see why this pool should logically get smaller. In the other hand though, the USA avoids the way, other countries are handling job training , like the devil water.
No, skilled labor gets more important from day to day. But it costs more. So let's hire people that will settle for less, and kick them out if they reach there limit.
In most countries, you have a multi year on the job training + school before you consideres a skilled worker in this job. I for example carry the title of a "Journeyman of Electronics and Communication". I am not working in this field anymore, but usually, most people stay with that they learned.
Long ramble short: no the pool of skilled jobs is shrinking, capitalism is expanding
mostly because that skilled labor pool has been primarily in tech the last 2 decades in the US and tech bro billionaires are currently doing their best to fuck all these workers over for profits
sadly much of the industry will fallow the FAANG corps lead with pay/benefits
Also, if you have children you have priority during school breaks for paied leaves.
This surprises me actually, it seems to have a built-in discrimination from the outset.
I've got little PhobosAnomalies at home, and my jobs over the years have taken me all over the place so school holidays haven't been a priority for me. That said, I wouldn't personally consider my need to have a week or two off in the school holidays or summer holidays as a priority, more just the same importance of everyone else. After all, having little'uns is mostly a choice (or sometimes, the choice isn't even available 😢) so it seems like a world of employment law hurt to grant the parents a higher level of priority than others.
That said, I ain't in Germany so it's a moot point really.
It's not actually a rule or law, just what people are usually doing anyway.
If people have the choice to take their holiday on a school break or not, then most take it not on school breaks. Everywhere you go at that time is packed with people.
But taking it during a school break when you don't need to, when at the same time your colleague can only take it during that time if they want to spend time with their family - well then it is just basic human decency to let them have that timeslot.
I understand though, you make great points. There's a big rumble of discontent in the UK at the moment as resorts proper take the piss during the school holidays, just to take advantage of families wanting to head off somewhere in the alotted times. There's more than a handful of folk who just pull their kids out of school during term time - whether it's a good or bad idea comes down to subjective opinion, but saving four figures on going a week or two earlier is quite a convincing argument!
Back on topic: I'm just looking at it from an angle different to my own is all, I'd be pretty pissed off that I'd have my leave request deprioritised for the sole reason that I hadn't rawdogged a girl more than four years and nine months prior!
Everywhere i have worked so far (office work) the holiday planning was made just by communicating with your colleagues. You just find a compromise that works for everybody. (Although there is a mentality of "first come, first serve". If you really need a holiday at a specific time, then better state it early, so the others can plan around it.)
The official holiday request afterwards is just a formality, because everything is already planned through and the boss has no reason to decline it.
I am sure there are workplaces where it is handled differently, but that is my personal experience as an office worker.
I was so lucky in the past. Now I am working directly under higher management. Dude, things change up here .... First of all: no team. Only multiple managers with projects, timelines and the need of me for those projects.
But, as mentioned, the common base stays the same.
In my 24 years in the workforce, I ran into such a situation once. And I moved my vacation 3 days and everything was fine. It is not very common. I just mentioned it because I think that it illustrates some back thought on the whole concept very well: employee and their families are important.
Another thing: legally an employer can only deny vacations if your absence would mean major damage for the company.
And if already approved absences are canceled, the company have to compensate you for flights and other bookings. In full
Awesome. Thanks for helping me see your viewpoint - it's likely a very minor difference in cultural expectations. It's super cool to see how our bros (other siblings descriptors are available) from the continent work around things.
I've worked for a number of organisations in my time too, and one common theme - very much like yours - is that protections against pre-booked time off are pretty strong. Whether it's being paid double-time; having three times your cancelled leave days refunded for each day you were recalled; or generally just giving you a bonus payment - it's gotta be pretty fuckin' wild for someone to be instructed back to work from pre-booked leave.
As you have alluded to though, communication is key 😊
you can pressure your employees with your vacation as leverage
Most places start asking for vacation requests a month or two out before schools do theirs. The US definitely keeps a tighter leash on vacation time than Europe. General US sick-time policy is an abomination.
In my industry, the standard is "unlimited" PTO/Sick for salary. You don't have a limit of what you can take, but it has to be OK'd by your manager. They expect you to take at least 4 weeks.
But if you leave, or they let you go, they don't have to pay you for time accrued.
Most places start asking for vacation requests a month or two out before schools do theirs.
Sorry, I'm confused. What does this mean? Do schools in other countries not make their annual schedules before the school year begins? Or do "most places" you reference only allow you to ask for vacation during a certain calendar month? Or am I way off with both of those guesses?
Most places I've worked ask for people to request vacation by a minimum of one month before said-vacation occurs. Where I live, schools have their entire calendar (including holidays and extended breaks) planned by August. So if somebody wanted to request time off for winter or spring break, they'd probably have plenty of time to coordinate. Does it work differently where you live?
Most salary US businesses realize there is a need for coordinated school vacation schedules.
Every place I've worked has managers starting to ask when people are going to take vacation around March or so for the June/July season so that they can try to talk people into moving vacations around for coverage.
It’s just left up to the employers. My employer gives me 4 weeks paid vacation, with sick time being additional to that and they have never given me a hard time for taking time off, even with just a few days notice.
We have a mixture. We have laws mandate minimum to vacation time, that the employer must respect the preferred dates for the free time as stated by its employees and only may deny or cancel vacation if the company would take major damage. And major as in: we have to let people go or even close major.
If the employer cancels your vacation, he must compensate you in full for all financial losses due to bookings for example.
In addition, paid time off and working hours are if course also benefits that could be used to attract employees
30 days vacation/ year , to 38 hour week, working from wherever I want, even in some pool in some hotel, and of course, paid sick leave. That is my current luxury.
And don't forget: about 10 work free holidays per year ;)
That sounds great. I have 10 days of vacation a year (not required by law) and 3 sick days (required by law in my state). 60-80 hours a week, and this is a "good" job. It's been 12 years and I can't keep this up much longer. But I look at other people's jobs for a living, and I know it could be worse.
Yeah I have been given an almost identical speech about taking PTO at more than one place of work. So if this is satire, all it is doing is just saying something that really happens.
It certainly happens, and I highly doubt it's unique to the US.
Our policy is to let the team know in advance when you're taking it if it's a long leave (a week or more), that's it. If that's not possible, whatever, we'll figure it out.
yeah, you put in for it early enough for your management to have the time to properly prepare for your absence. However what this is saying is that you should shoulder this responsibility at the cost of your entitlements, rather than the company doing the work of preparing for you to use your entitlements.
I take the other members of the team into consideration. It does make sense since I work with them fives days a week, don't want to make shit harder for them, within reason.
I think what the guy above you meant is that he'd take PTO but try to make sure it's not 1) At the same time as everyone else, or 2) at an anticipated super busy period.
Where I come from, legally, we have to plan our PTO out for the year in Jan/Feb. Good managers will make exceptions and let you take spontaneous PTO with two weeks notice usually.
This means that if you have a team of 8 and each wants to take 2 weeks in the summer, usually max 2-3 people would have overlapping PTO. Everyone gets PTO in the summer, but you don't leave a single guy doing all the work. Usually anyone who has pre-existing plans would have higher priority over specific dates than anyone else.
The system works most of the time. You're happy because nobody is going to guilt you about taking PTO, your coworkers are happy because nobody is left alone to deal with the entire team's workload, and the bosses are happy because work continues at like 70% and if there's an emergency, there's someone to handle it.
Yea, no. At my last job every project was constantly late because they kept over promising and clearly didn’t have enough people for what they committed to. I couldn’t even get a department meeting once a month for an hour because everyone was always “too busy”.
These projects always need everyone to commit to it like it’s a personal passion project because their goals are unreasonable. If they can’t handle someone being away for a day then the manager clearly cannot plan and/or the enployees need better training(in my case half of them were simply stubborn and ineffective on top of the questionable management). Sure, don’t take a week off right before a reasonably set deadline if the work’s not done but otherwise do whatever.
I had someone call me yelling because I was going to finish the job in exactly the amount of time I said it would take me, but I started a day late due to technical errors which made another project go over by a day(and that day I still stayed late to make sure things were done!). If you can’t take a day off then you also can’t be sick, and if managers don’t account for THAT obvious possibility then they are fucking stupid and awful managers, zero exceptions.
That’s a given for basic respect. If someone has to be told that they’ve got a different problem entirely. At that point we’re talking about the right to your PTO anymore.
During a previous assignment, I was told that during the summer period I was going to be swamped with work, and I was asked, because I don't have kids, not to take a vacation in that period.
So I didn't and told them that I would take my vacation after the summer holiday period, in October. I told them this in May.
The summer period comes around, and it was the slowest period I had ever encountered. There was literally nothing for me to do. Meanwhile the project manager and a number of other people in my team, who had small kids, did take time off in the summer period.
By the time it was October, the work had picked up again, and they complained that I was going to be on vacation in that period. The manager called me not a team player. I just told them that I held the fort when they told me to, and that I had communicated this vacation well ahead of time. They had had their relax time, now it was time for me.
I agree, I don't want to make things harder for my team members, but within reason. And what they asked of me wasn't reasonable.
Yes but a good manager will arrange a replacement for you after you inform them that you're putting in the PTO. It shouldn't fall on your shoulders.
If they can't find a replacement then they should hire more people and try to overstaff every single day so that there's always someone to cover. That's what my workplace does, and because of that there has never been an issue with me taking PTO whenever the hell I feel like it.
I don't think that works with us for smaller, few days off leave since you need to move around heavy equipment. Or if you've been the one in charge of stuff.
I mean they cold move around heavy equipment and get people to rope someone in on what you were in charge of, it just gets too complicated. So that's why time off is usually figured out by people.
I remind my team about their vacation and floater days on a quarterly basis and all them to be used. All I ask for is time for me to pivot as needed and if you have ongoing projects that you reschedule planned meetings, document as you go, and ensure access is available to the rest of the team if needed.
I've had employees in the past who I've sat down and directly asked them to take time off (paid) because they were burning out and would otherwise push through it. I've even reminded some of available leaves of absence for situations in their personal lives.
If the business can't continue without any one person, then the business isn't sustainable as-is and that's not fair to anyone. Hire more people if it's coverage or train your people if there's skill gaps. Documentation of systems and processes is also crucial.
I think managers like you are important for helping cultivate perspectives that are better situated to challenge various bullshit under capitalism. Whilst some workplaces or managers actively make it difficult for people to take their earned vacation days, there are also plenty of places that will apply a passive pressure that causes people being disinclined to take time off. Working in the first kind of place can make you more vulnerable to the insidiousness of the second workplace.
Sometimes, in that second kind of workplace, when you insist on taking your vacation days, the pressure morphs into more overtime coercion, but often, there ends up being no repercussions — often, they don't want to fight people on it, so they rely on workers effectively oppressing themselves.
The more people that are practiced at taking what they're entitled to, the easier it is to resist shitty workplaces that try to deny us what few privileges our contracts entitle us.
If the business can’t continue without any one person, then the business isn’t sustainable as-is and that’s not fair to anyone. Hire more people if it’s coverage or train your people if there’s skill gaps. Documentation of systems and processes is also crucial.
This is it, and not only for PTO reasons. Anyone can get in an accident, get sick or resign at any time. As a manager you just cannot depend on a permanent all-hands-on-deck situation where everyone just works like a cog in the machine (as in, if one cog is missing the whole machine is down).
Running a company like that is terrible practice and a disaster waiting to happen.
Always keep the bus factor in mind (as in "how many people can get hit by a bus before the project grinds to a halt?") and plan accordingly.
I get both sides of this argument. Some businesses have certain periods where it's extremely busy followed by an ebb in work. Accountants for example may be balls-to-the-wall at year end, but that period doesn't justify hiring somebody who might otherwise have their thumb up their ass and nothing to do most of the rest of the year. I've also had IT jobs that resolved around projects in this way., and there are always a certain number of SME's that you kinda need at launch.
At the other side, I've known employers who basically ran the bare-minimum amount of staff for a team/project (or less and worked the rest to the bone) and getting them to sign off on holidays for any reasonable length of time was near impossible.
Those are the types that would try to call you from the middle of open-heart-surgery if they could, and yeah anyone in this situations should be looking for a new job. The hard part being that getting the time to do proper job hunting was often also similarly difficult because of work, and bills still needed to be paid.
I mean, there are jobs where the first posters advice is relevant. I’m a musician, and there are just rehearsals I cannot miss. When I am working with a high school, I cant take PTO during key production days or performances because I am the only person at the place that can do exactly what I do: that’s why they hired me.
My department has been complaining to the big boss that we need more people. People have been retiring for years with barely one new hire per two empty positions. And now… I am in long term sick leave (protected) and shit is coming dooooown. Not enough people to cover all the projects. Multiple projects put on hold for the time being, others being roughly merged. People are pissed.
Vacation ≠ pto and it's strange to equate them. There's various non paid ways to take a vacation, such as a(n intended) gap between jobs, unpaid additional leave, or on a 3 day weekend. There's people working in my job with 6 and 7 weeks of pto that still take unpaid additional vacations.
They use all of their pto, as well as taking more. Also, management allows people to choose if they want to use pto when taking a day off. All unused pto pays out at the end of the year and raises are in October -- wait to use it and it adds a dollar per pto hour
I know people who are off even up to a third of the year
I work on a business communication tool. You know those things you have in your phone that people send messages to and expect you to answer.
When I leave my computer, that's it, I'm done. I don't have the application on my phone. I didn't check email or messages after 5 or 6 and most days I work for a few hours before I check them.
On weekends, I turn off my computer.
I've been doing this for years now. No one notices, or if they do they are smart enough to not bring it up.
I came up in a world where we were the ones introducing Yahoo and AOL into the business world, I had a phone on my desk that was essential, and email was king. I rarely had a laptop and they were quite rare. When you left the office, it was expected that you were some for the day.
The grind culture over the last decade or so is insane. It is insane that people will give over half their time to a company that would show them the door in an instant.
Yes, you should do everything possible to set up your team and colleagues for success when you take your PTO, but that should never require a tether to the office.
It's not just the last decade. Office Space came out 25 years ago! We're more connected now, but this ridiculous work culture in the US has existed since at least the 1980s.
It does depend on the size of the company. If it's a small business, it may have no leeway occasionally, and you may need to time your PTO.
That being said, the last time I worked for a small business and they contacted me during my vacation to beg me to work, I quit directly after the vacation ended.
Our org has a response division with a couple of teams on rotation. So long as you give them notice, you can take whatever you like off whenever you like - as the meme says, it's an organisational problem to manage, not the employee. The only exception is Christmas where the period from say the 21st to the 3rd January, where it's always massively oversubscribed so any PTO requests get put into a hat and drawn in September.
they contacted me during my vacation to beg me to work
Whereas that is bollocks, I would absolutely negotiate terms and see what they'd offer first! Might be a nice little earner if you didn't have plans after all.
It does depend on the size of the company. If it’s a small business, it may have no leeway occasionally, and you may need to time your PTO.
Really? Really though? Because unless I'm a part owner with a substantial stake, fuck all the way off with that boot licking nonsense. Capital is not your friend. They are not your family. A small business is at best like a cute little bear cub, that will maul you to death without a moment's remorse when it is bigger.
If there's a new product launch and you're part of the small team building it... Just don't schedule your PTO on launch week. Schedule it a week or 2 later when the biggest fires have been put out. Don't fuck off when your team needs you the most. Use any other time for your PTO.
Now if there's always a fire burning and it never ends... That is an organizational failure and you should spend part of your PTO looking for a new job.
Americans and their attitude to their holiday allowance will never cease to amaze me.
Literally the only consideration I need to make on behalf of my employer is whether my days off will leave less than 75% of my department out. And as that never happens then I never have to think about it.
"Hard work" is one of the cultural norms that the Puritans instilled in our society. Our ancestors fought hard to form labor unions and to guarantee that we wouldn't have to work 80-hour weeks, and yet here we are.
Not to say that people in other countries don't work hard. They do. Many work harder than their counterparts in the US. But their governments have (very reasonable) limits on the amount of time their employers can expect them to work. (As well as minimums for time off, sick leave, etc.)
It's a weird holdover of American culture that spending too much time at work and putting the company's needs before your own is somehow virtuous.
I mean, having a plan for the work you won't be there to do is normal, I tell my boss "I will be out on Friday, will you do x, and when I get back I will do Y".
And sure, would not request a day if the other two people in my department will both be out that same day.
This is in the flexible environment I work in, though. Don't need to take PTO for appointments, can come in late or leave early, can take a long lunch to go for a walk or run, nobody even blinks. I come in late sometimes because I needed to do gardening before work. I am flexible for them because they are flexible for me.
Pro Tip to youngesters just getting into corporate.
Don't let the company think they actually care about you. They don't. HR doesn't care. Executives doesn't. Nobody doesn't. You're the only person that cares about you.
Also, work is just a business transaction. They need your service. You need their money. Do make friends, but not at your expense.
I think both stances need more nuance. Yeah - if your company doesn't hire someone that can fulfill your essential duties while you're gone, that's on them.
But when you do have someone who can cover your duties while you're gone, it makes sense that you can't all take off the same day. I work in municipal government for a small city, and my boss and I are each other's backups. We've worked together for years, and we haven't taken the same day off yet, but both take several weeks a year. Heck - tomorrow there's an annual conference we both should attend, and we alternate each year who goes because someone has to hold down the fort.
Most people who get promoted in my company are taking holidays after being hired, are back from maternity/paternity leave, are taking lots of break, some don't even work the hours they should.
The key is just to be visible.
Those who work a lot silently are not visible because they think they will be noticed, and the management needs them to stay where they are to do the hard work.
If your employer doesn't hire enough bodies to make sure the work gets done when people call in sick or take PTO, that's on them. Absenteeism can range between 3-5% on any given day, and can be industry dependent. This is something that should be factored into the amount of work that needs to get done per day on average when deciding on appropriate headcount. Companies that want to run skeleton crews because, "muh profits," can find out when they fuck around. I was always taught that when it comes to things critical for your survival, you should always have them in triplicate. This is why I have an E-bike, analog bike, and bus pass; if one stops working, I have backups. Employers should have this mindset with critical tasks and headcount.
Tip for managers: anticipate how your staff taking PTO will impact your team and try as hard as possible to minimize any disruption. And realize that there are times when their PTO is going to be inconvenient and you're going to have to deal with that.
I don't think I agree with the second comment. I work in a team. If you just take it and leave them to handle your shit, you are an asshoke. If you say it in advance and sort your stuff, then do whatever you want
There's been a misunderstanding here. It seems like you are trying to share a balanced and nuanced opinion. That's a major faux pas around here, on the internet. Please find yourself an establishment where such vulgar language isn't frowned upon.
Idk. I'm lucky enough that if I want PTO I can ask, and if I need it I can just notify my boss (I can literally enter his office and say "I need to take Friday for such and such" and he basically just goes "OK" and that is it)
Ugh, soon...once things stop exploding in infascinating ways my coworkers aren't equipped to handle without leaving a bonfire for my return. Not their fault, I'm just the guy tasked with the oddball stuff that looks nothing like their day-to-day. Fine when things are the normal amount of on fire, less so when actively erupting and (recently) literally on fire.
Take some time off my dude, it's not worth your health and being that guy will get in the cracks before you realize something is off. After taking two weeks off recently I came back to the world on fire and have started to realize I don't care that much!
Typically you still have a manager that may not be on your team directly but they may manage you. I was an IT team of one at one point but the lead programmer to the company was the manager of my department " "
Sounds like a job I had once. Left that job after not even a year. Was not worth it for me especially since I was still early in career and was very obviously in over my head with little proper direction/leadership.
Well for me it was actually one of those jobs that helped me grow in my career. It was my first system administration job. And more important than that it was a Linux system administrator job so I learned a ton and grew a ton. It was one of the few jobs that I stayed at for as long as I did. The only reason I left was when they denied my raise to a decent pay rate. The next job I stepped into was the manager of a network operations center so it helped me grow all the way to that point.
I think for me, while I was definitely exposed to a lot of things I never touched in college, I don't think I ever really got what I needed for me in my career. I really want to avoid any manager type role as much as possible and large part of that is I'm bad at being accountable for things. I don't have good foresight and was never shown what to expect, for what to many, seems like normal things but I just take things as I get them. I work best when I'm told what to do and if I can do that as a SME who earns the dough, that's enough for me. After my (so far) one gov job, absolutely do not want any part of being in management or manager/lead type role.
I am lucky to get the time I do (It's more than most people I know) but I recently too two full weeks off to spend with my wife for our 20th anniversary, it was amazing. After I got back to work I had hundreds of emails to catch up on and so much extra work that had piled up I started thinking about all the extra work I had taken on over the years to "cover down" for people and then realized that was the most consecutive time I've taken off in the past 9 years.
I think it's time for a change. Not a job change per-se, but time to start taking time for me, my family, and my health.
what in the world is PTO? best guess from context is holidays. but why would anyone make it a 3 letter acronym? i am sure any 3 letter acronym has at least 3 different meanings in different contexts...
but if PTO actually is holidays, yes take them. don't let some third world country grifters, like you find them often in the usa, redefine words and take away basic things - just because they call it slightly different.
so yes, holidays. if not specifically unpaid leave, all holidays should be paid. sick is not time off anyway. it is recovering, so company resources are used appropriately: not making others sick and being 100% as soon as possible (instead of a zombie at work).
in the US, "holiday" means something different from "paid time off". a holiday is something like christmas, easter, labor day, independence day, that sort of thing. it's like a widely recognized specific special day. also for a lot of workers they don't even get holidays off of work.
"vacation" is what we use to describe taking time off of work here, and "paid time off" is specifically for describing how the time off is arranged with one's employer.
all pedantic, but yeah, "holiday" means something a lot different here
“vacation” is what we use to describe taking time off of work here, and “paid time off” is specifically for describing how the time off is arranged with one’s employer.
This is an important note - PTO is for individualized, arranged time off. It could be used for a week, a single day, or even for just a few hours (in some cases.) It could be used to give yourself a random day off here or there, if you want to. It doesn't have to be a vacation or a holiday (in the American sense), just a random (though usually pre-requested) day where you feel like staying inside in pajamas, marathoning movies all day, and getting paid for it. (AKA a mental health day.)
It's also important (and sad) to note that not all jobs offer PTO. Ditto for sick leave and parental leave. The US is straight-up backwards...
PTO can usually just be used anytime as long as you give notice and get it approved. That doesn't match with the American definition of 'holidays' since those are specific calendar dates, but I think British English uses the term interchangeably with vacation?
It's not always an acronym- a lot of people will just say 'vacation time.'
But yeah it's basically so that you have one pool for vacation time and sick time that's paid. A lot of places expect you to take unpaid leave if you're sick- or just fuckin work anyways- because unchecked capitalism.
While in internship, slap your employer with "Oh hi, by the way, THIS is my union" and if the response is anything other than "Okay, cool! I'll check their collective bargaining agreement for our next meeting" maybe start looking for next post, just saying.
If you are in internship or whatever, and your employer has not asked anything about union details or whatever until last week, yeah, you might as well start preparing for disappointment.
nah. at some point, no amount of additional money can make up for the stress caused by shitty employer behavior around using an earned and agreed upon vacation benefit.
If it turns out your manager has no problem keeping things running without you, then don't be surprised when you get laid off, and suddenly you're wondering how you're gonna afford food & shelter.
If it then turns out that no one else on the team can take time off when they have one less, the rest of the team will just go to better jobs. And suddenly the business goes bankrupt and the manager complains nobody wants to work anymore.
Food service employees are still pressured not to take personal time and/or scheduled tightly on short notice. They'll feel this pressure regardless if people look down on the job or not.
If you're a plumber with a team but can't weather planned or unplanned man shortage, that's a management issue .
If you're a solo plumber with this issue, you're the manager you should blame for not being able to take time off for yourself.
The Scrooge McDuck avatar lighting a cigar with a dollar note makes me think this was either satire to begin with, or the original poster has lost any and all contact with reality.
Business Bros love to run a boiler room enterprise that prints decals for the local dollar store and pretend they're going to be the next Steve Jobs.
Personally, I'm so sick of people saying "it's parody/satire!" That's on the same level as fucking with people, then laughing "it's just a prank, bro!"
There's so many garbage takes and smooth-brained people believing the dumbest shit now, despite having all collective human knowledge at our fingertips... If your super funny satire is indistinguishable from these, it adds absolutely nothing.
I have literally been given a nearly identical speech about taking PTO, more than once...
This is why I use /s .
The internet has weirdly forgotten about Poe's Law. There are enough fucked up people in the world that you just can't reliably determine if an outlandish opinion is satire or not.
Even when they are obviously satire, some idiots will take them to heart and repeat them everywhere as gospel.
Also the name “privilege log”
I worked craft beer sales for a hot minute. Place was a disaster, so I was already looking for a new job anyway. Labor day rolls around, and I inform my bosses A MONTH OUT that I will be taking a week off at the end of August to go on vacation. They approve it, all is well, everything's great, I get back to work. The week I leave, I remind them that I'll be gone for a week, I won't be available for work things, and that I'll see them next week. They say cool, tell me to have a great time, and I clock out for the day.
9:01AM, the day I leave, I get a text. "Hey Dogiedog64, when are you coming back? We need to have a chat about some things." I don't bother responding, since I'm on vacation, and moreover, I'm driving on the highway. The day passes, I get where I'm going, but it's past work hours, and I want to enjoy my vacation. THE NEXT DAY, they call me. 9:01AM. I miss it, they leave a message and another text to the effect of "Call us back. It's important." I don't. I'm on vacation, they KNOW I'm on vacation, and it can wait.
6PM rolls around, and I get a text. "Dogiedog64, since you didn't call us back today, we're unfortunately going to have to let you go. Your performance wasn't cutting it and we've gotten numerous customer complaints about you." I know for a fact this was bullshit, as I had done the rounds before I left, and all my customers loved me and our beer, but hated our managers and distribution scheme.
Now, you may ask "what was the point of that story?" It's simple: companies will find a reason to fire you for nothing, no matter how well you lay out boundaries or plans, so don't bother treating them like they're special. I lost my job, but I did nothing wrong; I set clear boundaries and expectations, with ample documentation, notice, and approval, and they STILL fired my ass.
So yeah. Take your PTO. It's YOURS. Go on that vacation, leave your work life AT WORK, and have a good time. Your coworkers will be fine without you, and if the company collapses while you're gone, they deserved to collapse anyway. Life is simply too short to spend it all slaving away for a company that hates you.
also it's free to contact the local labor bureau or eeoe if you're fired for taking a vacation, they'll even help you with lawyers, mediators etc
If it collapses without you, then maybe it should be your company.
Is there an ending to that story? If I was in that situation, I would have ignored it all and then came back the day I said I'd come back and act like everything was normal, make up something about how my phone got broken or stolen or something.
At the very least I hope you tried to get unemployment or some such!
The ending was pretty underwhelming. I wasn't employed long enough to get unemployment, and haven't been able to get another job since. Now back at school pursuing a new degree.
Careful with this one. Racking up even more debt generally does not make your life easier.
Good thing I'm not in debt then.
Always a good way to live!
What beer company?
A local one, in Baltimore. Won't get more specific to avoid doxxing myself and others.
Ladies and gentlemen, behold the cowardice that allows shit like this to persist in your country
Its not cowardice to avoid sharing Personal Information on the internet. There's a real possibility to be doxxed just by sharing which place you worked at, and were fired for what reason. Not everyone is comfortable doing that.
Oh no! Your job! 😒 it’s almost as if you don’t realize you already have nothing to lose.
Maybe, being doxxed is the bigger issue here. Perhaps, take a read in OPSEC and learn how digital fingerprinting and doxxing work.
🤣 yes, I’m sure this white dude in Baltimore who didn’t bother taking any action to fight back against the shitheads who fired him for taking a vacation from his craft beer job is involved in some very serious action requiring OPSEC.
I swear to god as soon as I’m proven wrong I’ll eat an entire tree on video and then delete my account.
This would be a case a law student would be able to win you in Germany, not that companies here don't try it here anyway.
Damn, what did your union say?
What's a union? /s
That sounds like cut and dry wrongful termination. You should have sued, if not for rightful compensation then to make sure that they think again before they pull the same shit with other employees.
Over here in Germany where everybody has at least 3 weeks paid time off (being ill does not count to this contingent btw), it is common that leaves are planned in the beginning of the year for larger vacations, so there are no collisions.
Also, if you have children you have priority during school breaks for paied leaves.
This concept could be copied by us employers also, I wonder why not? Maybe because this way you can pressure your employees with your vacation as leverage
And in this system, it is common courtesy to make effort to make sure your team has as few problems as possible from your absence. Of course it is also common courtesy that you are not contact for anything work related during your vacation time.
This is exactly what seems to be missing in the US: courtesy.
A system that gives everyone entitled leave means better employees and less downtime due to leave (surprise surprise, courtesy leads to coordination).
Shockingly this leads to people caring about their team mates, and things aren't zero sum anymore.
In the Netherlands we have laws in place to ensure what is called "good employership" and "good employeeship". It's basically the minimum of what you should expect from each other in matters of courtesy. Good employership as a minimum states an employer should be thoroughly, not abuse his powers as an employer, substantiate big decisions regarding employees, live up to expectations, treat all employees equal and provide good insurance.
Good employeeship is seen as being at work at agreed upon times (this includes taking PTO), doing suitable work, being honest, loyalty to a certain degree like not starting a company without consultation and "stealing" work from the employer, and descretion/secrecy regarding company sensitive information.
It's all very general, and most of the time further explained either in additional laws or in a "CAO", a collective working conditions agreement which is reviewed periodically with the unions (about 70-75% of employees have such an agreement).
if my compensation includes paid time off, I am taking it. my notifications are not requests when the date is weeks or months out. it is informational only.
i do not and never have accepted blackout day etc.
i’m honest with this during the hiring process and it’s, honestly, worked out just fine. especially if you frame it as a part of forward thinking communication and the manager is trying to pretend they know what they are doing.
If communicated and part of the deal, great. I personally think that an employment benefits both parties. And with the mentioned curtisyz that works well.
For example, I leave early for appointments, in the last weeks we had some troubles, so dinner for the hole family was on the employer, a while week of takeouts.
So, if my employer tells me that my vacation colides with a project, I am certain that he checked every possibility, and we try to find solutions, like interruptijg the vacation for a day and taking part in meetings from my hotel room.
And if I can not trust my employer enough, then I move on. I am in the lucky position that the stuff I do, most people can't.
This is exactly it. In my country most employers act in good faith. Employees return that favour.
You'll get dickbags everywhere, but the system ensures people's incentives are aligned.
"If my compensation includes paid time off"
The "If" is exactly the problem in America. Most countries with mandatory vacation specifically incentivise employees to use it all (little to no carry over, no payout at the end of year).
The entire purpose is that you use it all and are refreshed and more invested in your job.
You'd get looked at funny if you declared you planned on using your PTO, that's like saying you plan on taking a lunch break EVERY DAY. It's just expected
All of this is possible in North America, but you need a union job.
My day-job is a unionionized Managed Services gig subsidiary of a larger company. The rest of the company fits a stereotype we see in the deLoittes and IBM Pro Servs of the world, but the union contract gives us a sane bit of breathing room:
The combo of compressed time, stats and careful placement of my 21 vacation days this year will give me 7 carefully-placed weeks off; it's not contiguous, but it's really great.
Can you explain 9x9 to me? That's confusing. 24x7, 8x5 yeah. But you can't mean that notation? Or did the US finally change to a 10 day week?
9 working hours, 9 days. you hit 80 hours in nine days, so the tenth day you get off. basically an extra day off every other week
Oh, ok. Well, we have 40 hour weeks per law, and a maximum working time of 10hours per day, so we can do the same l, and my employer is fine with it.
Thanks!
Yeah but courtesy is running dry as of late :(
But it's also known that for example august is a slow month so you are not expecting a full workforce.
oh in america management requests you plan them early then ignores reality anyway.
My previous employer in the US was pretty liberal with their time off policy. I would just submit a request, and my manager would approve or not approve. 100% of the time when they didn't approve, it was because the email had gotten lost in their in box, so I just pestered them about it. It was assumed that employees would check with project managers of projects they were on to make sure their vacations wouldn't cause problems for the projects - which basically just meant that I would tell my PMs that I was planning to take X days off about a month from now, and they would say "thanks for letting me know, I'll work that into the project schedule!"
That is how I expect it at every company! Great!
it is with ‘skilled’ labor
sadly this pool keeps getting smaller and smaller
I don't see why this pool should logically get smaller. In the other hand though, the USA avoids the way, other countries are handling job training , like the devil water.
No, skilled labor gets more important from day to day. But it costs more. So let's hire people that will settle for less, and kick them out if they reach there limit.
In most countries, you have a multi year on the job training + school before you consideres a skilled worker in this job. I for example carry the title of a "Journeyman of Electronics and Communication". I am not working in this field anymore, but usually, most people stay with that they learned.
Long ramble short: no the pool of skilled jobs is shrinking, capitalism is expanding
mostly because that skilled labor pool has been primarily in tech the last 2 decades in the US and tech bro billionaires are currently doing their best to fuck all these workers over for profits
sadly much of the industry will fallow the FAANG corps lead with pay/benefits
This surprises me actually, it seems to have a built-in discrimination from the outset.
I've got little PhobosAnomalies at home, and my jobs over the years have taken me all over the place so school holidays haven't been a priority for me. That said, I wouldn't personally consider my need to have a week or two off in the school holidays or summer holidays as a priority, more just the same importance of everyone else. After all, having little'uns is mostly a choice (or sometimes, the choice isn't even available 😢) so it seems like a world of employment law hurt to grant the parents a higher level of priority than others.
That said, I ain't in Germany so it's a moot point really.
It's not actually a rule or law, just what people are usually doing anyway.
If people have the choice to take their holiday on a school break or not, then most take it not on school breaks. Everywhere you go at that time is packed with people.
But taking it during a school break when you don't need to, when at the same time your colleague can only take it during that time if they want to spend time with their family - well then it is just basic human decency to let them have that timeslot.
Ah, thanks for the clarification.
I understand though, you make great points. There's a big rumble of discontent in the UK at the moment as resorts proper take the piss during the school holidays, just to take advantage of families wanting to head off somewhere in the alotted times. There's more than a handful of folk who just pull their kids out of school during term time - whether it's a good or bad idea comes down to subjective opinion, but saving four figures on going a week or two earlier is quite a convincing argument!
Back on topic: I'm just looking at it from an angle different to my own is all, I'd be pretty pissed off that I'd have my leave request deprioritised for the sole reason that I hadn't rawdogged a girl more than four years and nine months prior!
Everywhere i have worked so far (office work) the holiday planning was made just by communicating with your colleagues. You just find a compromise that works for everybody. (Although there is a mentality of "first come, first serve". If you really need a holiday at a specific time, then better state it early, so the others can plan around it.) The official holiday request afterwards is just a formality, because everything is already planned through and the boss has no reason to decline it.
I am sure there are workplaces where it is handled differently, but that is my personal experience as an office worker.
I was so lucky in the past. Now I am working directly under higher management. Dude, things change up here .... First of all: no team. Only multiple managers with projects, timelines and the need of me for those projects.
But, as mentioned, the common base stays the same.
I'll stay far away from management. :)
In my 24 years in the workforce, I ran into such a situation once. And I moved my vacation 3 days and everything was fine. It is not very common. I just mentioned it because I think that it illustrates some back thought on the whole concept very well: employee and their families are important.
Another thing: legally an employer can only deny vacations if your absence would mean major damage for the company.
And if already approved absences are canceled, the company have to compensate you for flights and other bookings. In full
Awesome. Thanks for helping me see your viewpoint - it's likely a very minor difference in cultural expectations. It's super cool to see how our bros (other siblings descriptors are available) from the continent work around things.
I've worked for a number of organisations in my time too, and one common theme - very much like yours - is that protections against pre-booked time off are pretty strong. Whether it's being paid double-time; having three times your cancelled leave days refunded for each day you were recalled; or generally just giving you a bonus payment - it's gotta be pretty fuckin' wild for someone to be instructed back to work from pre-booked leave.
As you have alluded to though, communication is key 😊
Yes, no. We have strict school attendece laws (and no homeschooling btw), so you can't just do some vacation sometimes else this year.
Also, the kids have a right to free time and vacation.
And: traveling outside school breaks is far more convenient anyways.. no kids at the pool
Most places start asking for vacation requests a month or two out before schools do theirs. The US definitely keeps a tighter leash on vacation time than Europe. General US sick-time policy is an abomination.
In my industry, the standard is "unlimited" PTO/Sick for salary. You don't have a limit of what you can take, but it has to be OK'd by your manager. They expect you to take at least 4 weeks.
But if you leave, or they let you go, they don't have to pay you for time accrued.
Let me guess - they only approve when it's a good time, and somehow it's seldom a good time?
No we're kind of a unicorn. They're really good about it.
Couple months ma/pa ternity leave
When I moved, I took most of six weeks off.
I work like hell hour wise normally tho so it's not sunshine and roses.
Sorry, I'm confused. What does this mean? Do schools in other countries not make their annual schedules before the school year begins? Or do "most places" you reference only allow you to ask for vacation during a certain calendar month? Or am I way off with both of those guesses?
Most places I've worked ask for people to request vacation by a minimum of one month before said-vacation occurs. Where I live, schools have their entire calendar (including holidays and extended breaks) planned by August. So if somebody wanted to request time off for winter or spring break, they'd probably have plenty of time to coordinate. Does it work differently where you live?
Most salary US businesses realize there is a need for coordinated school vacation schedules.
Every place I've worked has managers starting to ask when people are going to take vacation around March or so for the June/July season so that they can try to talk people into moving vacations around for coverage.
It’s just left up to the employers. My employer gives me 4 weeks paid vacation, with sick time being additional to that and they have never given me a hard time for taking time off, even with just a few days notice.
We have a mixture. We have laws mandate minimum to vacation time, that the employer must respect the preferred dates for the free time as stated by its employees and only may deny or cancel vacation if the company would take major damage. And major as in: we have to let people go or even close major.
If the employer cancels your vacation, he must compensate you in full for all financial losses due to bookings for example.
In addition, paid time off and working hours are if course also benefits that could be used to attract employees
30 days vacation/ year , to 38 hour week, working from wherever I want, even in some pool in some hotel, and of course, paid sick leave. That is my current luxury.
And don't forget: about 10 work free holidays per year ;)
That sounds great. I have 10 days of vacation a year (not required by law) and 3 sick days (required by law in my state). 60-80 hours a week, and this is a "good" job. It's been 12 years and I can't keep this up much longer. But I look at other people's jobs for a living, and I know it could be worse.
As an immigrant, I thank the god and fates I didn't end up in America. This level of guilt tripping and toxicity is astounding.
It would be if it weren't satire.
Poe's Law. Many, MANY people would unironically agree with Priv's comment.
majority even if you are on linkedin
Well, I hope so. I heard many stories from other cultures about toxic work environment in their country, and prefer the work culture here in Ireland.
It varies greatly by company. My current company is pretty chill, but my previous was definitely not chill.
Yeah I have been given an almost identical speech about taking PTO at more than one place of work. So if this is satire, all it is doing is just saying something that really happens.
It certainly happens, and I highly doubt it's unique to the US.
Our policy is to let the team know in advance when you're taking it if it's a long leave (a week or more), that's it. If that's not possible, whatever, we'll figure it out.
yeah, you put in for it early enough for your management to have the time to properly prepare for your absence. However what this is saying is that you should shoulder this responsibility at the cost of your entitlements, rather than the company doing the work of preparing for you to use your entitlements.
Yup. As a manager, give me about twice as much notice as you plan to take off, and I'll figure out the rest.
What is? That the US has the smallest amount of vacation days available in the developed world?
Look at the account making the statement and tell me it's actually serious.
If your business isn't sustainable when I visit family over the holidays, your business isn't sustainable.
I take the other members of the team into consideration. It does make sense since I work with them fives days a week, don't want to make shit harder for them, within reason.
Exactly! Not taking your PTO will create pressure for your coworkers to also pass over their PTO or work longer hours.
Don't set a bad precedent.
I think what the guy above you meant is that he'd take PTO but try to make sure it's not 1) At the same time as everyone else, or 2) at an anticipated super busy period.
Where I come from, legally, we have to plan our PTO out for the year in Jan/Feb. Good managers will make exceptions and let you take spontaneous PTO with two weeks notice usually.
This means that if you have a team of 8 and each wants to take 2 weeks in the summer, usually max 2-3 people would have overlapping PTO. Everyone gets PTO in the summer, but you don't leave a single guy doing all the work. Usually anyone who has pre-existing plans would have higher priority over specific dates than anyone else.
The system works most of the time. You're happy because nobody is going to guilt you about taking PTO, your coworkers are happy because nobody is left alone to deal with the entire team's workload, and the bosses are happy because work continues at like 70% and if there's an emergency, there's someone to handle it.
Not taking it? I'm talking about picking when to use it, not if you are going to use it lol ofc you use the time off
Yea, no. At my last job every project was constantly late because they kept over promising and clearly didn’t have enough people for what they committed to. I couldn’t even get a department meeting once a month for an hour because everyone was always “too busy”.
These projects always need everyone to commit to it like it’s a personal passion project because their goals are unreasonable. If they can’t handle someone being away for a day then the manager clearly cannot plan and/or the enployees need better training(in my case half of them were simply stubborn and ineffective on top of the questionable management). Sure, don’t take a week off right before a reasonably set deadline if the work’s not done but otherwise do whatever.
I had someone call me yelling because I was going to finish the job in exactly the amount of time I said it would take me, but I started a day late due to technical errors which made another project go over by a day(and that day I still stayed late to make sure things were done!). If you can’t take a day off then you also can’t be sick, and if managers don’t account for THAT obvious possibility then they are fucking stupid and awful managers, zero exceptions.
I mean the "sure don't take time off just before a deadline finishes" stuff is the sort of thing I was talking about.
That’s a given for basic respect. If someone has to be told that they’ve got a different problem entirely. At that point we’re talking about the right to your PTO anymore.
During a previous assignment, I was told that during the summer period I was going to be swamped with work, and I was asked, because I don't have kids, not to take a vacation in that period.
So I didn't and told them that I would take my vacation after the summer holiday period, in October. I told them this in May.
The summer period comes around, and it was the slowest period I had ever encountered. There was literally nothing for me to do. Meanwhile the project manager and a number of other people in my team, who had small kids, did take time off in the summer period. By the time it was October, the work had picked up again, and they complained that I was going to be on vacation in that period. The manager called me not a team player. I just told them that I held the fort when they told me to, and that I had communicated this vacation well ahead of time. They had had their relax time, now it was time for me.
I agree, I don't want to make things harder for my team members, but within reason. And what they asked of me wasn't reasonable.
Yes but a good manager will arrange a replacement for you after you inform them that you're putting in the PTO. It shouldn't fall on your shoulders.
If they can't find a replacement then they should hire more people and try to overstaff every single day so that there's always someone to cover. That's what my workplace does, and because of that there has never been an issue with me taking PTO whenever the hell I feel like it.
I don't think that works with us for smaller, few days off leave since you need to move around heavy equipment. Or if you've been the one in charge of stuff.
I mean they cold move around heavy equipment and get people to rope someone in on what you were in charge of, it just gets too complicated. So that's why time off is usually figured out by people.
I remind my team about their vacation and floater days on a quarterly basis and all them to be used. All I ask for is time for me to pivot as needed and if you have ongoing projects that you reschedule planned meetings, document as you go, and ensure access is available to the rest of the team if needed.
I've had employees in the past who I've sat down and directly asked them to take time off (paid) because they were burning out and would otherwise push through it. I've even reminded some of available leaves of absence for situations in their personal lives.
If the business can't continue without any one person, then the business isn't sustainable as-is and that's not fair to anyone. Hire more people if it's coverage or train your people if there's skill gaps. Documentation of systems and processes is also crucial.
I think managers like you are important for helping cultivate perspectives that are better situated to challenge various bullshit under capitalism. Whilst some workplaces or managers actively make it difficult for people to take their earned vacation days, there are also plenty of places that will apply a passive pressure that causes people being disinclined to take time off. Working in the first kind of place can make you more vulnerable to the insidiousness of the second workplace.
Sometimes, in that second kind of workplace, when you insist on taking your vacation days, the pressure morphs into more overtime coercion, but often, there ends up being no repercussions — often, they don't want to fight people on it, so they rely on workers effectively oppressing themselves.
The more people that are practiced at taking what they're entitled to, the easier it is to resist shitty workplaces that try to deny us what few privileges our contracts entitle us.
This is it, and not only for PTO reasons. Anyone can get in an accident, get sick or resign at any time. As a manager you just cannot depend on a permanent all-hands-on-deck situation where everyone just works like a cog in the machine (as in, if one cog is missing the whole machine is down).
Running a company like that is terrible practice and a disaster waiting to happen.
Always keep the bus factor in mind (as in "how many people can get hit by a bus before the project grinds to a halt?") and plan accordingly.
Absolutely! Part of my team carpools so this is a very real concern for me lol
I get both sides of this argument. Some businesses have certain periods where it's extremely busy followed by an ebb in work. Accountants for example may be balls-to-the-wall at year end, but that period doesn't justify hiring somebody who might otherwise have their thumb up their ass and nothing to do most of the rest of the year. I've also had IT jobs that resolved around projects in this way., and there are always a certain number of SME's that you kinda need at launch.
At the other side, I've known employers who basically ran the bare-minimum amount of staff for a team/project (or less and worked the rest to the bone) and getting them to sign off on holidays for any reasonable length of time was near impossible. Those are the types that would try to call you from the middle of open-heart-surgery if they could, and yeah anyone in this situations should be looking for a new job. The hard part being that getting the time to do proper job hunting was often also similarly difficult because of work, and bills still needed to be paid.
I mean, there are jobs where the first posters advice is relevant. I’m a musician, and there are just rehearsals I cannot miss. When I am working with a high school, I cant take PTO during key production days or performances because I am the only person at the place that can do exactly what I do: that’s why they hired me.
If you haven't hired enough people to cover vacations and unexpected absences, you've hired poorly.
My department has been complaining to the big boss that we need more people. People have been retiring for years with barely one new hire per two empty positions. And now… I am in long term sick leave (protected) and shit is coming dooooown. Not enough people to cover all the projects. Multiple projects put on hold for the time being, others being roughly merged. People are pissed.
Lol. That's what happens when those in charge chronically chase short-term profit over long-term sustainability.
What do you mean I can't get by with a just-in-time workforce? I need a 100% deduction on my taxes (business and personal) or else I might faint!
Also stop using the acronym, because it's too easy to forget what those letters mean when just the acronym is being used. Call it "Paid Time Off".
We call it vacation in the rest of the English speaking world.
Vacation ≠ pto and it's strange to equate them. There's various non paid ways to take a vacation, such as a(n intended) gap between jobs, unpaid additional leave, or on a 3 day weekend. There's people working in my job with 6 and 7 weeks of pto that still take unpaid additional vacations.
How are they taking unpaid vacations when they could be using PTO?
They use all of their pto, as well as taking more. Also, management allows people to choose if they want to use pto when taking a day off. All unused pto pays out at the end of the year and raises are in October -- wait to use it and it adds a dollar per pto hour
I know people who are off even up to a third of the year
Where do you live? Where I live, we call it Semester..
Literally, the only place I have ever heard PTO used is in the US.
Power Take Off?
If you do it strategic like.
I work on a business communication tool. You know those things you have in your phone that people send messages to and expect you to answer.
When I leave my computer, that's it, I'm done. I don't have the application on my phone. I didn't check email or messages after 5 or 6 and most days I work for a few hours before I check them.
On weekends, I turn off my computer.
I've been doing this for years now. No one notices, or if they do they are smart enough to not bring it up.
I came up in a world where we were the ones introducing Yahoo and AOL into the business world, I had a phone on my desk that was essential, and email was king. I rarely had a laptop and they were quite rare. When you left the office, it was expected that you were some for the day.
The grind culture over the last decade or so is insane. It is insane that people will give over half their time to a company that would show them the door in an instant.
Yes, you should do everything possible to set up your team and colleagues for success when you take your PTO, but that should never require a tether to the office.
It's not just the last decade. Office Space came out 25 years ago! We're more connected now, but this ridiculous work culture in the US has existed since at least the 1980s.
I'm glad we have some balance here in Europe.
It does depend on the size of the company. If it's a small business, it may have no leeway occasionally, and you may need to time your PTO.
That being said, the last time I worked for a small business and they contacted me during my vacation to beg me to work, I quit directly after the vacation ended.
Our org has a response division with a couple of teams on rotation. So long as you give them notice, you can take whatever you like off whenever you like - as the meme says, it's an organisational problem to manage, not the employee. The only exception is Christmas where the period from say the 21st to the 3rd January, where it's always massively oversubscribed so any PTO requests get put into a hat and drawn in September.
Whereas that is bollocks, I would absolutely negotiate terms and see what they'd offer first! Might be a nice little earner if you didn't have plans after all.
People don't usually quit after one incident. That happened to be the last straw.
For additional context, a couple of months later, they laid off their entire software engineering team, which was the section I was in.
Really? Really though? Because unless I'm a part owner with a substantial stake, fuck all the way off with that boot licking nonsense. Capital is not your friend. They are not your family. A small business is at best like a cute little bear cub, that will maul you to death without a moment's remorse when it is bigger.
Jesus, you must be a JOY to work with.
If there's a new product launch and you're part of the small team building it... Just don't schedule your PTO on launch week. Schedule it a week or 2 later when the biggest fires have been put out. Don't fuck off when your team needs you the most. Use any other time for your PTO.
Now if there's always a fire burning and it never ends... That is an organizational failure and you should spend part of your PTO looking for a new job.
Americans and their attitude to their holiday allowance will never cease to amaze me.
Literally the only consideration I need to make on behalf of my employer is whether my days off will leave less than 75% of my department out. And as that never happens then I never have to think about it.
If you have holiday available to you, take it.
"Hard work" is one of the cultural norms that the Puritans instilled in our society. Our ancestors fought hard to form labor unions and to guarantee that we wouldn't have to work 80-hour weeks, and yet here we are.
Not to say that people in other countries don't work hard. They do. Many work harder than their counterparts in the US. But their governments have (very reasonable) limits on the amount of time their employers can expect them to work. (As well as minimums for time off, sick leave, etc.)
It's a weird holdover of American culture that spending too much time at work and putting the company's needs before your own is somehow virtuous.
I mean, having a plan for the work you won't be there to do is normal, I tell my boss "I will be out on Friday, will you do x, and when I get back I will do Y".
And sure, would not request a day if the other two people in my department will both be out that same day.
This is in the flexible environment I work in, though. Don't need to take PTO for appointments, can come in late or leave early, can take a long lunch to go for a walk or run, nobody even blinks. I come in late sometimes because I needed to do gardening before work. I am flexible for them because they are flexible for me.
Take PTO Make sure your absence maximizes disruption that only you can fix Clean everything up right when you get back Job security!
Pro Tip to youngesters just getting into corporate.
Don't let the company think they actually care about you. They don't. HR doesn't care. Executives doesn't. Nobody doesn't. You're the only person that cares about you.
Also, work is just a business transaction. They need your service. You need their money. Do make friends, but not at your expense.
I think both stances need more nuance. Yeah - if your company doesn't hire someone that can fulfill your essential duties while you're gone, that's on them.
But when you do have someone who can cover your duties while you're gone, it makes sense that you can't all take off the same day. I work in municipal government for a small city, and my boss and I are each other's backups. We've worked together for years, and we haven't taken the same day off yet, but both take several weeks a year. Heck - tomorrow there's an annual conference we both should attend, and we alternate each year who goes because someone has to hold down the fort.
Says the guy who has Scrooge Mcduck as an avatar. Sure buddy.
Maximize the disruption so they know what'll happen of they fire you.
Then demand a raise.
Most people who get promoted in my company are taking holidays after being hired, are back from maternity/paternity leave, are taking lots of break, some don't even work the hours they should.
The key is just to be visible.
Those who work a lot silently are not visible because they think they will be noticed, and the management needs them to stay where they are to do the hard work.
Just take your leaves.
If your employer doesn't hire enough bodies to make sure the work gets done when people call in sick or take PTO, that's on them. Absenteeism can range between 3-5% on any given day, and can be industry dependent. This is something that should be factored into the amount of work that needs to get done per day on average when deciding on appropriate headcount. Companies that want to run skeleton crews because, "muh profits," can find out when they fuck around. I was always taught that when it comes to things critical for your survival, you should always have them in triplicate. This is why I have an E-bike, analog bike, and bus pass; if one stops working, I have backups. Employers should have this mindset with critical tasks and headcount.
Tip for managers: anticipate how your staff taking PTO will impact your team and try as hard as possible to minimize any disruption. And realize that there are times when their PTO is going to be inconvenient and you're going to have to deal with that.
I don't think I agree with the second comment. I work in a team. If you just take it and leave them to handle your shit, you are an asshoke. If you say it in advance and sort your stuff, then do whatever you want
There's been a misunderstanding here. It seems like you are trying to share a balanced and nuanced opinion. That's a major faux pas around here, on the internet. Please find yourself an establishment where such vulgar language isn't frowned upon.
Isn't PTO supposed to be approved anyway?
Idk. I'm lucky enough that if I want PTO I can ask, and if I need it I can just notify my boss (I can literally enter his office and say "I need to take Friday for such and such" and he basically just goes "OK" and that is it)
"timeless advice" motherfuckers when PTO stops existing 😯
Ugh, soon...once things stop exploding in infascinating ways my coworkers aren't equipped to handle without leaving a bonfire for my return. Not their fault, I'm just the guy tasked with the oddball stuff that looks nothing like their day-to-day. Fine when things are the normal amount of on fire, less so when actively erupting and (recently) literally on fire.
Take some time off my dude, it's not worth your health and being that guy will get in the cracks before you realize something is off. After taking two weeks off recently I came back to the world on fire and have started to realize I don't care that much!
If I am the whole team, does the last bit still apply?
Typically you still have a manager that may not be on your team directly but they may manage you. I was an IT team of one at one point but the lead programmer to the company was the manager of my department " "
Sounds like a job I had once. Left that job after not even a year. Was not worth it for me especially since I was still early in career and was very obviously in over my head with little proper direction/leadership.
Well for me it was actually one of those jobs that helped me grow in my career. It was my first system administration job. And more important than that it was a Linux system administrator job so I learned a ton and grew a ton. It was one of the few jobs that I stayed at for as long as I did. The only reason I left was when they denied my raise to a decent pay rate. The next job I stepped into was the manager of a network operations center so it helped me grow all the way to that point.
I think for me, while I was definitely exposed to a lot of things I never touched in college, I don't think I ever really got what I needed for me in my career. I really want to avoid any manager type role as much as possible and large part of that is I'm bad at being accountable for things. I don't have good foresight and was never shown what to expect, for what to many, seems like normal things but I just take things as I get them. I work best when I'm told what to do and if I can do that as a SME who earns the dough, that's enough for me. After my (so far) one gov job, absolutely do not want any part of being in management or manager/lead type role.
My job literally forces me to take all my leave by end of FY unless I have a very good reason.
Managers are wierdly cranky when it's time to manage.
I am lucky to get the time I do (It's more than most people I know) but I recently too two full weeks off to spend with my wife for our 20th anniversary, it was amazing. After I got back to work I had hundreds of emails to catch up on and so much extra work that had piled up I started thinking about all the extra work I had taken on over the years to "cover down" for people and then realized that was the most consecutive time I've taken off in the past 9 years.
I think it's time for a change. Not a job change per-se, but time to start taking time for me, my family, and my health.
If you enjoy it go ahead. The point is it should not be an expectation.
what in the world is PTO? best guess from context is holidays. but why would anyone make it a 3 letter acronym? i am sure any 3 letter acronym has at least 3 different meanings in different contexts...
but if PTO actually is holidays, yes take them. don't let some third world country grifters, like you find them often in the usa, redefine words and take away basic things - just because they call it slightly different.
so yes, holidays. if not specifically unpaid leave, all holidays should be paid. sick is not time off anyway. it is recovering, so company resources are used appropriately: not making others sick and being 100% as soon as possible (instead of a zombie at work).
thanks for the response!
in the US, "holiday" means something different from "paid time off". a holiday is something like christmas, easter, labor day, independence day, that sort of thing. it's like a widely recognized specific special day. also for a lot of workers they don't even get holidays off of work.
"vacation" is what we use to describe taking time off of work here, and "paid time off" is specifically for describing how the time off is arranged with one's employer.
all pedantic, but yeah, "holiday" means something a lot different here
This is an important note - PTO is for individualized, arranged time off. It could be used for a week, a single day, or even for just a few hours (in some cases.) It could be used to give yourself a random day off here or there, if you want to. It doesn't have to be a vacation or a holiday (in the American sense), just a random (though usually pre-requested) day where you feel like staying inside in pajamas, marathoning movies all day, and getting paid for it. (AKA a mental health day.)
It's also important (and sad) to note that not all jobs offer PTO. Ditto for sick leave and parental leave. The US is straight-up backwards...
Companies are rolling vacation time and sick time into one block called “Paid Time Off” make themselves look better.
That's horrifying.
I guess?
PTO can usually just be used anytime as long as you give notice and get it approved. That doesn't match with the American definition of 'holidays' since those are specific calendar dates, but I think British English uses the term interchangeably with vacation?
It's not always an acronym- a lot of people will just say 'vacation time.'
But yeah it's basically so that you have one pool for vacation time and sick time that's paid. A lot of places expect you to take unpaid leave if you're sick- or just fuckin work anyways- because unchecked capitalism.
If you want European pro tips:
Or ask for a massive raise, and take the PTO anyway.
Heed the wisdom of the ancients.
Or ask for a raise.
nah. at some point, no amount of additional money can make up for the stress caused by shitty employer behavior around using an earned and agreed upon vacation benefit.
If it turns out your manager has no problem keeping things running without you, then don't be surprised when you get laid off, and suddenly you're wondering how you're gonna afford food & shelter.
If it then turns out that no one else on the team can take time off when they have one less, the rest of the team will just go to better jobs. And suddenly the business goes bankrupt and the manager complains nobody wants to work anymore.
Daddy Capitalism wants you to cuck harder. Lick his boots while youre at it.
Depends on the job Are you in food service/ factory lines Or maybe you are a plumber with city contracts and deadlines to meet
Your examples are ... not good.
Food service employees are still pressured not to take personal time and/or scheduled tightly on short notice. They'll feel this pressure regardless if people look down on the job or not.
If you're a plumber with a team but can't weather planned or unplanned man shortage, that's a management issue .
If you're a solo plumber with this issue, you're the manager you should blame for not being able to take time off for yourself.