why the hell cant men stay out of women-only spaces?
im so sick of seeing reports regarding men posting in women-only communities and i cant help but get annoyed with these guys.
the rules are clearly presented. either youre not paying attention or youre just an asshole who purposefully throws their opinion in a place explicitly not wanting it.
what the fuck is wrong with you guys?
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Comments135
Mod notice: semi-controversial but serious question has been raised about an actual issue. Keep it civil and stay classy.
If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all. Or at least be tastefully funny about it.
EDIT:
Thanks for providing a great reason to leave this community.
The OP has been hostile in the comments, and in their OP, violating Rule 1, and Rule 5.
Do better.
OK, I pulled out a computer for you so I could see the rules side by side with my post because my mobile client doesn't allow it.
OP came in swinging hot, maybe a little toxic, but there are valid points behind the hot words.
However, OP has shown that they are able to accept other viewpoints from valid arguments (https://lemmy.ca/post/48960508/18080134). So I would argue this is borderline.
I have to say, I have no idea what sealioning is though.
This isn't a "How do I". This is an open ended attempt (with some frustration) to try to under why members of the community do certain things.
That's my view anyway. What's yours?
Sealioning is when someone pretends to be 'just asking questions' in good faith in an attempt to sow discord in a community.
Fuckin' hate that Kareny lickspittle bullshit. 🤌🏼
"Cite sources of your claim, prove it, and spend ages providing material that I will dismiss as irrelevant!".
The name comes from this comic:
Sparrohawcs explanation is also a pretty good one.
That just seems like an objection whiners raise when they dislike challenges: they
No one needs to answer challenges to their argument or "spend ages providing material". By that same token, no one else needs to care about a weak, poorly defended argument.
It's easy enough to ignore or reciprocate preposterous lines of questioning: seems like a skills issue.
As for "sowing discord", there's a strong philosophical tradition of doing pretty much that (ie, shamelessly, impudently breaking conformity to unchallenged conventions & assumptions) to dispel "false belief, mindlessness, folly, and conceit" in the pursuit of "mental clarity or lucidity". They were called dogs & would even state "other dogs bite their enemies, I bite my friends to save them". Such classical philosophers might be called trolls nowadays.
Any system that treats them as trolls is broken in my opinion.
I am fine with not commenting in women-only spaces, but that is very much not what OP is trying to do. OP is venting and using a rhetorical question they don't seem to particularly want an answer to. Is that "requesting support?" Does that extend to emotional/moral support?
I think if the OP is complaining about not following the rules and spirit of a community when posting, it seems appropriate to point out if they are violating the rules (and spirit) of the community they post it in.
I shared my view and left the community. Was something about my comment unclear?
I didn’t see why it was a clear violation of rule 5. I was wondering why you thought it was
It's not an airport. You don't need to announce your departure.
I know.
I did it because I wanted to share my point of view, like you have done here. Both of which are admittedly pointless and time wasting endeavors.
It is not about the post or poster, it is about the lack of action from mods in regards to the post or poster. Which is a constant problem in this community that I have noticed, and a good reason to leave it.
I find it funny that you care so much, so thank you for that.
Honestly the varied mobile platforms don't always present the channel/groups rules in advance. Especially if one is just browsing trending topics. There can potentially be no way for some users to be informed enough before they see a topic they want to interact with.
Best solution I found for similar issue is polite advisement of the rules via dm or other preferred method and helping them learn and have better internet etiquette.
Calling folks out publicly can get alot of negative associations with it as well which might end with you group on the wrong end of a troll.
Yup, this is it for me. I blocked womenstuff, mostly so that they wouldn't have to deal with me stumbling in from sorting all by new.
valid points!
It’s very often right in the title, AND the description, yet filled with men's comments.
Nope. To be clear, the rules are not in the titles of most posts or the community name.
irrelevant. its none of your business what they converse amongst themselves
are you one of the people doing this or should you have just stfu to start with as you have no actual information to contribute?
I'm not standing up for Lembot's motivations, I don't know Lembot. But their comment on its own was pointing to a perception of your "What the fuck is wrong with you" remark generalizing intrusive behavior to all men, rather than just the intrusive men.
I kinda feel like you are intentionally missing the point of the feedback you are getting and pretending like any pushback you get is related to your one specific grievance despite people being pretty clear about what they are saying.
If the community is private you might have a point, but there are very public women's only communities on this platform who's conversations show up in the aggregate feeds--that's not just "conversing amongst themselves."
This I disagree with, as it’s an open community.
It’s read only to men.
But don’t post, yes. Period. That part is pretty simple.
I worry about what incels write about women in incel forums. It can lead to horrible behavior outside those forums.
The recent tea app debacle shows you are quite wrong about that.
I use Voyager. Community rules are hidden unless you specifically go to that community page, open the menu, and select "sidebar". It's incredibly easy to miss.
If a community only wants some people posting then a quick fix is to not allow just anyone to post to it.
I think generally if somebody does this genuinely they are politely told the rules but then some feel hard done by and start whining about it.
TIL there is women only spaces on the internet. How do you even enforce it?
Mandatory penis inspection, obviously.
They use the UK way, where you film your private parts and then they can decide where you fit in.
I seriously hope you mean this as a joke.
Not for much longer at this rate, submit ID for verification
Knowing that he loved coke and alcohol at this time makes this hairstyle make sense.
You hope that men will recognize that this is a space not meant for them (which is often explicitly stated in the post body) and respectfully not comment. And those men that do comment but are respectful get politely asked not to comment again. And those men that comment and are rude or disrespectful get banned.
And some men do fly under the radar but a surprising number feel the need to start their comment with "As a man...".
Please present yourself to JK Rowling's TERF Inspection Booth /s
Ask the UK government
With difficulty, as demonstrated here.
most of these guys are self identifying...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moderation
There's no way to "force" anything, different clients are going to behave however they like. Maybe if you need that level of control the Fediverse isn't the right platform to begin with.
Why aren't people checking what community they're about to participate in? That feels like it ought to be standard behaviour
Because it's unnecessary in almost all cases. So far there is only one community which forbids people to comment based on who they are, but otherwise the rules boil down to standard acceptable behavior according to common sense. It's also a nuisance for users: I am quite sure nobody wants to click several times and be derailed to check rules (on mobile) for every comment they want to write in every post they see on a feed. If this would be expected as standard behavior, I would guess even less interactions will happen.
It feels that way to you. Not everyone shares your opinion
~A person who throws food waste in the recycle
There's not. You sound exactly like people who try to justify throwing garbage in a recycling bin
no u
Wrong and dumb
That's a bit of an overreaction.
The rules are not clearly presented when you're just scrolling through a generic AllPost feed. I've almost commented to one of these just the other day before realizing at the last second what community it was.
Also, when you're discussing men, especially negatively, and expect men to not jump in to defend themselves, that's a bit naive to think they'll stay out of it. Some of those threads can get really echo chamber and dogpile feeling.
And people would be throwing a shit fit if the genders were reversed here. I'm sure there are some bitter people out there that don't like the double standard. There seems to be a lot of overgeneralization where the bad behavior of a select few gets broadly painted onto the entire gender. This, again, has a double standard of being an acceptable thing to do, to the point that even within this thread someone is mocking others for pointing out "not all men" as a response.
How do you know they're guys? Who decides who's a woman?
They've got a super secret proprietary Testoste-meter®, of course!
Totally different from the Teste-tester® and similar knock-offs. Theirs is legit, 100% and totally bonerfide.
they tend to self identify in various, context specific ways. language is powerful
How do you know they're not women trolling as men?
Isn't gender a social construct based on self-identification (rather than your physical body) that can be fluid & vary from day to day? Isn't a woman anyone who claims to be?
Some activists even say there is no such thing as a “male body”
Messages are genderless.
Are you complaining about unverifiable gender claims on here? Seems somewhat pointless & untenable.
You're reaching.
Based on the comments here and in the previous similar post I have seen, the vast, vast majority of people (presumably men) highlight how this is a problem of visibility of posts in public feeds.
It's a tradeoff between having the community public for discoverability and accepting that many people will not check the rules and violate them, some inadvertently.
The alternative is to make the community private, and accept that women will need to discover a women-relates community by searching for "women", which doesn't seem incredibly unlikely.
From the sentiments I read, most people wouldn't care at all if the community was private and wouldn't have a desire to "invade" it. I definitely feel part of this group.
Considering that it's in the interest of the community (apparently) to have only women, I think it's fair to expect the (minimal) effort from future members to look for it (plus advertising it in posts etc.) on them instead of expecting the vast majority of the users (the fediverse is mostly males) to add friction and having to check the rules of every single community of every post they open (now it might be a community, more might come). Yes, community rules are important, but being realistic, if you don't behave like an asshole you don't need to worry about them in 99% of the times.
However, if this tradeoff is not deemed acceptable, I think there is no point complaining about people "invading" women spaces because it's guaranteed that many people will comment without reading the rules, as I am sure the almost totality of users does all the time. Even without counting the ones who intentionally violate the rule, there is always going to be an organic amount of people who will do so inadvertently.
At this point I think the tradeoff is so clear, that discussing the topic in such a confrontational way looks more like rage-bait than anything aimed at solving the problem.
People in general want to be included and some even more so when they’re told they’re not allowed in.
It’s easy when it’s a physical space, ropes and security keep the riff raff out. With online spaces, it requires active moderation, mods who are willing to enforce the rules and ban those that violate them.
Say I'm a trans female. Can I post then? Trans man? Gay man? Gay woman?
It's self policing. If they're being obnoxious or killing the environment or culture of the space, downvote/block/report and move on.
the rules are obvious, and trans inclusive.
if it wasnt for the sheer volume of [presumed] idiots who cant seem to follow those rules i wouldnt have posted. the points is the reports and heavy moderation required.
its like digital mansplaining
So you decide to ragepost in a different community that had nothing to do with it? This community is for asking questions, and it's pretty clear you're just phrasing things as a question so you can rage and troll without getting the boot
The same as with those women wanting to get in this men space? I wonder...
More seriously, you ask a legit question (as it would be legit if it was a man asking why some women so badly want to join in men-only spaces), a question that could trigger an interesting discussion, but why does it have to be so fucking angry? (See how poorly it passes?)
It's not immediately obvious when it appears in your feed, I also don't think people expect to be excluded due to protected characteristics. I know I wouldn't have expected a community to discriminate.
Man here, there have been several times when I have found a thread talking about men and shitting all over all men and painting with broad strokes, claiming that we are all awful and just looking to use women.
I feel offended at indirectly being included in a group like that, and have joined in discussions in the past to try and explain that we are not all terrible people.
Over time however, I have learned to ignore the hate spewers and just move on.
Personally, if I see a community where the rules are politely explaining the situation, I just block the community out of respect for the xommunity.
Yeah I blocked it too, but it probably sucks for new users that are just commenting on posts they see because they are popular
Those people hate people who come in and say "not all men." They will say that it's obvious they are not talking about all men. They don't feel like they should make the disclaimer. We have the complaints about "not all men" men here in this very thread.
But what are you going to do? That's just how women are.
I chuckled.
I mean, not all women, obviously. Shouldn't have to be said.
Those "Women ☕" and "Men ☕" people are the worst
(for those that don't get it, it's the type of comment you get from people generalizing, discriminating and just being sexist)
Is this about the public community, Women's stuff, federated on the public fediverse who's posts get aggregated to the public all feed and which is accessed by a diverse set of software solutions that may or may not force the community rules to be visible before viewing post content?
I try not to engage cause I know about the community, but golly, I can't imagine how a man might stumble upon that and interact.
I saw a post, added a relevant wiki link, and then my comment was deleted, and that's fair enough as I didn't read the rules beforehand.
To reduce the constant barrage of mansplaining :-) I suggest adding a sticky top level comment (or something better), or some sort of filter before a comment is added if possible.
Or set the public instance to public discussion about women's stuff and set up a private instance with a women's only application process that is advertised on the public instance.
There's value in women's only spaces, and there's value in spaces for fathers, husbands, brothers, boyfriends, and sons to ask about women's stuff. By arranging the communities as described they can keep discoverability, exclusivity, AND can stop getting forbidden comments from the public on their public forum.
Lemmy is a public space. Everyone can participate.
Imagine if lemmy was a physical piece of public land. Could you create a community on it that can only be accessed by women? Something like this village?
There are literally women only bars and women only buses. And women only bathrooms, of course.
yeah fair. they aren't community-owned spaces like infrastructure but close enough
now the question is whether the fediverse is closer to public infrastructure or a bar. probably the bar, i'd say.
Something about a women only space triggers people. Just look at the people replying here. They can't seem to help themselves.
Something about a "group" only space will trigger me regardless.
Lmao the thread shows all the exact problems laid bare.
You got the denial guy, you got the false equivalency guy, you got the not all men guy, just incredible they're all here.
Forgot one: randomly stumbled in after sorting by new guys.
I blocked womenstuff for their sake, not mine.
Thank you for doing that - such a simple and kind thing to do!
Is it though? You can't seriously expect every lemmy user to do that for you.
No, of course I don't expect that. But it's a nice thing when it happens.
right! its like they came out of the woodwork to prove my point!
Hold on, lemme willfully misinterpret your intent and reframe it so it's about meeee. I'm the good one let me innnnn
Blahaj certified comment
Obviously it's blahaj again
Blahaj: discriminating minorities is forbidden, discriminating majorities is allowed
"Why the hell can't blacks stay out of white only spaces"
Successful woman-focused spaces incorporate men, because men are fathers of daughters; brothers of sisters; sons of mothers; and partners, friends, coworkers, mentors, and teammates of women. Men are relevant and important to addressing women's issues.
This is a false equivalency, my dude. There are definitely good reasons for people who generally face systemic discrimination (ie. Women, black people) to have separate communities from those they face discrimination from (men, white people). It’s not like they are trying to divorce themselves from society at large.
Why not have a community of people that are against this discrimination, rather than just having the targets of it? I feel like it doesn't really help..
And anyways, pleading your cause publicly will always be better imo. Better to avoid confirmation bias and other bs
this says more about you than the original topic
Don't like what you see in the mirror?
I know you edited your post, which still has things I think are wrong, but OP is absolutely correct based on your initial post… JS
My edit was only adding the 2nd paragraph. And no, it is not wrong and the OP is not correct
A few points:
It could be a mistake, but adding context without labeling it as an addition or an edit changes the view of the discourse that has already been made
You once again flipped the discriminatory group and the group discriminatory against which is at best a misunderstanding and at worse malicious
You are STILL wrong and are mansplaining. You don’t need to insert yourself into women’s discourse. You are literally the type of person women’s only spaces are built to protect against. While yes, help from those who are not discriminated against definitely help the discriminated, that help comes in listening to what they have to say and support. Your expressed viewpoint is more or less: “I am very important and you should hear what I have to say because it is helpful”. You are, intentionally or not, giving subtle hints that you are better than women and that’s why you should be allowed to force your way into their discourse. In this day and age, we call that sexism.
Maybe that’s not your intention, but boy your writing is full of red flags
It wasn't a mistake, I simply moved the paragraph from a comment deep in the thread to the top level, because it deserves to be there. Also, there's nothing wrong with editing comments and "the discourse that has already been made" is not owed preservation, not that it was impacted in any way by my edit.
Go ahead and point out these "subtle hints" that I'm better than women.
Yeah, that's not what sexism means.
Your comments are full of red flags of delusions, imaginary enemies, and self victimization.
You said in your edit: Men are relevant and important to addressing women’s issues.
That's it.
And per merriam webster:
Your statement in and itself, shows prejudice based on sex.
Bro is defending itself and is mansplaining? I mean at this point stop throwing random words, just makes you look sexist
purple!
not sure how tossing irrelevant info matter, but there ya go!
Would be nice if Lemmy and Piefed had a way to limit posting and commenting to subscribers. That should at least stop accidental comments while keeping visibility.
Not for me, because I'm aubscribed because I'm curious and might want to share interesting threads with my wife.
Anyways, brb making a feature request.
Edit: [email protected] moved to Piefed, so the feature request should be made there. And I just lost a half typed request to Android's bullshit memory management and now I don't have any energy left. Someone else can take over.
i like that idea!
alternatively, a simple rule notification during commenting would suffice.. a popup or inline banner with verbiage specific to the community
Make it a private group. If it shows up in the general list, it's a free and public spot.
Upload a photo which includes your face and genitals, and AI will validate your age and sex!
As a woman there's no way you are not aware of exactly why that happens and the kind of guys that would do it on purpose...
On accident? State it more clearly? Maybe throw in an explanation about why it's that way so you don't end up endlessly arguing the same stuff forever.
Damn that's some turbo manmansplaining right here xD
These comments…
+1
Community rules are community rules, and you can either follow them or get banned from the community. How is ‘women only’ any different?
As for the excuse of visibility: the rule is very often in the title, and the initial post, yet not followed.
As for the excuse of how they can tell: well if they can’t, okay, you evaded detection. But posts very often declare “I’m a guy and this is my take…”
I honestly don’t get it, especially on an internet “refuge” like Lemmy where users should be sensitive to persecution and the importance of safe, moderated discussion spaces.
Is that why you came to Lemmy? For "safe, moderated discussion"?
I feel like the overwhelming majority of "refugees" were escaping heavy-handed moderation.
I came so I wouldn’t be randomly shadowbanned by Reddit because it thinks I’m a spambot, heh.
And because it has human, cozy mods, not the corporate feel of big subs.
I guess I’m saying that I don’t picture people coming here to harass small communities with rules they don’t like, as there was a lot of that on Reddit too.
They're the most fake spaces, filled with copium and confirmation bias
Are women allowed to answer this question? It's directed at men.
Feel free, we're not on a discriminatory community
Do you have examples of women only communities? Because I have probably inadvertently done so. Admittedly, I probably also haven’t read the rules as my mobile client makes that stuff kind of hidden.
I love the posts that come out witchesvspatriachy for example. That’s definitely female dominated, but I didn’t read the rules because, well, they didn’t show up in the all feed, so I don’t know if I shouldn’t post.
I also think it’s good to get some outside opinion, occasionally, but female spaces need to remain female dominated for good reason.
/me shrugs. Sorry if I’ve been the point of your annoyance
Look, I'm not about to post comments myself in those places, but happening upon one recently after a previous post like this, I noticed how poorly the rule was displayed.
Each post should have a stickied mod comment at the top stating commenting is for women only. Otherwise it's easy not to notice what community the post is in that you're responding to, especially on mobile.
You can expect people to know the rules of any community before posting, or take the time to look, or whatever, but the only person you're hurting is yourself for having those expectations.
If your community is public, the onus is on you (or rather, the mods of the community) to make it as clear as possible what the rules are, if they exclude people or go beyond "be civil."
For the same reason why women can't stay out of male-only spaces. Women have been demonizing male-only spaces for decades. If male-only spaces are bad, female-only spaces are bad... I see no other 'equal law for all genders' reasonable outcome
They all suck because they eventually become discriminatory and redirect hate
You cannot clearly think if the only people you talk to agree with you
What's wrong with you? Are you OK hun?
you posted cringe
I browse through the federated list, and see posts from all instances I haven't blocked. Sometimes I'll comment, and one time I got feedback it was a women only instance. I blocked that one, since it wasn't for me. I never see community rules (they're in the sidebar, I know), and besides, if I have to read the rules each time before commenting, I might as well give up on lemmy.
So, probably I'm not paying attention, that's what the fuck is wrong with me.
I apologize for the shitty behavior of other men.
That being said, how do you feel about men reading those posts on women only communities, if they don't reply, comment or vote?
"somegroup"-only communities really feels like discrimination to me
Personally, I block pretty much all exclusionary communities for a few reasons:
I frequently do not see the community name before looking at a thread and finding something interesting to converse on, partly because of my neurodivergences. This leads to breaking rules without intending to. Safer to block.
I sometimes have experienced RSD as a symptom of my neurodivergences and thus intentionally take action to prevent it.
I value inclusivity and anarchic social organization as fundamental parts of my ethical framework and find social exclusion based upon a person's immutable traits incredibly offensive (the intensity of this is definitely related to my neurodivergences as well).
This is not to say that I don't believe that women deserve a space where they have control and agency, especially with the immense amounts of misogyny on the Internet and meatspace. Nor do they need to consider my feelings nor any other man's when deciding their rules and whether to be inclusive or exclusive.
I do, however, think that the hard-line exclusionary practices diminish the perspective, both for the participants and for men who could definitely use the insights into the bullshit that women have to continue to deal with. Lots of missed opportunity to build understanding and strengthen allyship. It also makes it easier for toxic exclusionary ideologies, like TERFs to take root (every group excluded makes it easier to excuse excluding another) while also preventing people who have not discovered their feminine gender identities from participating in conversation with other women in ways that could help them to uncover important things about themselves.
Anyway, enjoy and I hope that you find your space helpful to you, regardless of what myself or any other man feels about it. If the community does become inclusive, I'd definitely like to to know so that I can unblock it.
They're looking for a way to feel persecuted, probably.
Women are literally being persecuted.
Strong word to use. They don't have it easy, but it's a good thing they're not being beaten with a stick every day
There are some assholes, they're always be sadly
OP is complaining, but doesn't appear to be otherwise showing signs of that, and men being outraged women don't invite them into everything is a real phenomenon I've seen around.
That being said, yes, shittyness is evenly distributed between genders.
No, I don't catalogue them, lol. You'll have to take/ignore my word for it.
Going "hey, weren't we supposed to be equal" is understandable. Not paying any mind to reasons given why they're not allowed in whatever group and then making it a huge grievance to pursue shows the issue goes beyond philosophy.
your anecdote is cute, but i get reports from the women-only sub daily and it sure as hell isnt only guys not paying attention
dude, believe whatever you want to believe.
the fact men are jerks in the context of this thread is not an unknown and quite well established across the internet.
Never been to a concert I see