And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.
Ezekial 23:20
(side note, while looking up this verse it brought me to biblegateway.com where it shows dozens of translations basically in a list, and here is what the MSG (The Message) version translated that one single sentence into:
“Her sister Oholibah saw all this, but she became even worse than her sister in lust and whoring, if you can believe it. She also went crazy with lust for Assyrians: ambassadors and governors, military men smartly dressed and mounted on fine horses—the Assyrian elite. And I saw that she also had become incredibly filthy. Both women followed the same path. But Oholibah surpassed her sister. When she saw figures of Babylonians carved in relief on the walls and painted red, fancy belts around their waists, elaborate turbans on their heads, all of them looking important—famous Babylonians!—she went wild with lust and sent invitations to them in Babylon. The Babylonians came on the run, fornicated with her, made her dirty inside and out. When they had thoroughly debased her, she lost interest in them. Then she went public with her fornication. She exhibited her sex to the world. “I turned my back on her just as I had on her sister. But that didn’t slow her down. She went at her whoring harder than ever. She remembered when she was young, just starting out as a whore in Egypt. That whetted her appetite for more virile, vulgar, and violent lovers—stallions obsessive in their lust. She longed for the sexual prowess of her youth back in Egypt, where her firm young breasts were caressed and fondled.
How fucking creepy is that? First of all, the entire concept of this "translation" just seems like outright heresy, but what the fuck even is this?? Did the dude just read about massive dongs and it got him all horny so he wrote some Bible fanfiction in the middle of his "translation"?
Absolutely wild.
Edit: For people who don't click the link: This is one single verse according to Bible Gateway. This is not an entire section, this is the verse I quoted above as translated by the dude who makes this "translation." Or maybe Bible Gateway is wrong I dunno. Almost like having 3000 translations of your holy book dilutes it.
Edit: Because apparently people think I'd lie about something like this...
If you googled a single verse (this verse), and you saw this come up, how would you have reacted?
That translation is actually very accurate, but what you posted is 23:11-21, not just 23:20.
The Message is a “paraphrase” translation (“sense-for-sense”), which means it translates the concepts rather than just words (literal translation). Most Bible translations are literal translations, which is problematic because numerous connotative errors arise. Idioms, colloquialisms, and context are all lost in those translations. Today, the loss of context is often intentional, as restoring the context dramatically changes the meaning and puts it at odds with modern politically corrupted dogmas. To avoid those errors, The Message often translates groups of scriptures together instead of separately to achieve a more connotatively accurate english result.
If you were to read the same chunk of scriptures in another translation, you’d find the same content. Where The Message differs is that it attempts to translate idioms into modern (as of 20 years ago) versions, which often has hilariously anachronistic “how do you do, fellow kids” results.
That said, it’s one of the more trustworthy translations available, though plenty of grains of salt are still required.
Did you click the link? Every other translation is a single sentence. This is one single verse translated in The Message according to Bible Gateway. Why would they do that?
That said, it’s one of the more trustworthy translations available, though plenty of grains of salt are still required.
You conflated the way the website displays content (literal versus paraphrase translations) with the translations themselves (you literally painted the paraphrase translation as “fan fiction”). I clearly explained how the different translations work, that the content itself is the same for all available translations, and why the translations are likely to be displayed differently. Additionally, the website is freely accessible and confirming these things takes seconds.
But you appear to have ignored everything I said and then doubled down on your own bizarre take. And again, this is all easily verifiable in seconds on the website you, yourself, mentioned.
It doesn’t really matter whether you are trying to be deceptive on purpose or whether you are simply clueless and obstinate. Doubling down on a bad take after getting something so wrong makes for some potent fremdschämen.
Metaphorically, the whore in that passage is Israel. You could switch out the Assyrians and Babylonians for the various nation states that arm Israel today…
I hate, I despise your feasts, and I can't stand your solemn assemblies. Take away from me the noise of your songs! I will not listen to the music of your harps. But let justice roll on like rivers, and righteousness like a mighty stream.
Eh, no? The transgressions are named in Amos 2:4-12; it's the slavery, the way they treat the poor, the greed, and the incorporation of polytheistic practices like sacred prostitution.
It's funny how fast Murica has fallen into authoritarianism, I'm genuinely having a hard time believing that such a large portion of the population can be so stupid.
It's been the calculated plan for far longer than I can remember.
Conservative politics relies on stupid uneducated voters incapable of critical thinking.
The voters that, with a lack of actual knowledge of their own through either experience, formal education or even just good old fashioned intellectual curiosity about the world around them, will happily cede their opinion to the first authority figure who tells them what they are already presdisposed to believe and confirm their biases.
It's the entire reason there has been a coordinated attack on the liberal arts and college education under the guise of "financial constraints" and the push in the last few decades towards trade schools.
Conservative politics requires stupid who are content to learn how to be a tradesman, without any of that inconventient history or critical thinking getting in the way.
I get that's been the game plan, and to be honest it's worked perfectly, but poor people actually gloating about "owning the libs" while shooting themselves in the foot, the face and all else beggars belief!
"A person can be smart. But people are dumb, panicky dangerous animals, and you know it." -- Kay from MiB
We've all been hardwired with groupthink. We had to be. When a member of your tribe comes running by in a panic, you don't have time to stop and think what the hell is he running from?, you just start running along with him. It's the difference between living to hunt another day or getting killed by a bigger predator than you are.
The more people that are running. The more important it is (to our brain) to just start legging it. No one wants to be the straggler at the back that gets picked off. For that reason, group-think and herd-mentality skews incredibly towards the simplistic. In terms of evolution, there's no time to worry about the why...you just trust that if everyone else is running, you probably should be too. In terms of modern day that is the susceptibility of uneducated people to dogma, polemics and confirmation bias.
A single person..and individual that has critical thinking skills and the ability to look at the wider context, can overcome that instint. They can stop and say "hmmm...maybe I should look and see if this really is something that is going to harm me." They can reason themselves out of group-think.
But without that context. Without that critical thinking, you have almost no choice but to rely on the fact that if someone is telling you to run, they must know more than you...so get it in gear.
Whether that person is telling you to run from a predator, or to hate immigrants, it's all due to the same inherent mentality in humans.
Spot on regarding the person vs group. Being a fan of history I'm amazed at how far we've come technologically, but how our base instincts haven't changed. Even in the face of all the evidence about our behaviour historically, we repeat our mistakes time and again.
It's the good-ol' lizard brain and it isn't going away.
It's the part of the brain that controls emotions, moods, fear, fight-or-flight, etc... The Limbic Cortex
The sole purpose of critical thinking skills and knowledge of things like history, civics, etc... (whether that comes from education, experience or just good old fashioned intellectual curiosity) is to give the rest of our brain the context necessary to override that lizard brain. (In my opinion).
Too many people just don't care enough about the world around them to bother with that and are content to just let their lizard brain run things. It's these people that are susceptible to group-think, and it's these people (ironically) who think that they are ones who are thinking for themselves when in reality it's quite the opposite.
Oh they may call themselves Christians, but none of them uphold the ideals or beliefs of Christians. They are hypocrites. The same day they do this they take away healthcare from millions, take food out of children's hands, and ramp up more violence to those already hurting.
I don't care what their label is they put on the outside, none of these are Christian. They openly spit on the morals that Jesus laid down.
Jesus didn't stutter when he talked about strangers, the poor,those in need, the sick, and the wealthy.
I suggest you read the bible critically.
Any member of congress who backs Trump and claims to be Christian will burn in their version of hell fire. Much like the so called muslims leading the Gulf countries.
You will never convince me that shit like this is more than just performative play-acting for the sake of their base.
They aren't actually fucking praying. They don't actually believe any of this shit. It's a tool used to keep the support of their base of white christian nationalists.
That's why we see them doing shit like this now than every before.
In a world where more liberal minded Christians are balking at how "unchristian" these idiots are turning out to be, they have to make these shows louder and more obvious...and make damn sure there's a camera around, so that they can play even harder to the more extreme supporters.
If they were to quietly go about their business with no "performative acts of faith", more people would recognize them as the monsters they are.
But with shit like this, 81 year old grandparents the country over can look at them and say "I don't understand what they're doing, but they MUST be the good guys because look how christian they are..."
If anyone thinks America is getting out of this without resorting to firing squads and hanging these fuckers upside down in town squares, they're naive as fuck.
And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full.
Exactly. But performative acts like this play to their base. And their base is almost exclusively people who haven't read the very book they profess to follow.
Most athielsts (myself included) have read more of the bible than any of these people ever have.
Ever see one of those photos with HitlerPig in the middle, with a group of people all with one hand on his shoulder, all with their eyes closed, praying? And there in the middle front, is HitlerPig, who we all know is an absolute Sociopath, and doesn't believe any of that crap.
So Moses went back to the Lord and said, “Oh, what a great sin these people have committed! They have made themselves gods of gold. But now, please forgive their sin—but if not, then blot me out of the book you have written.”
The Lord replied to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book. Now go, lead the people to the place I spoke of, and my angel will go before you. However, when the time comes for me to punish, I will punish them for their sin.”
And the Lord struck the people with a plague because of what they did with the calf Aaron had made.
I agree with everything else that you're saying, but I wouldn't be so sure about this. Have you ever noticed how it's much easier to start online flame wars when you actually believe in the batshit stance that you're arguing as opposed to pretending to believe it for the sake of trolling? I think it's a similar thing here. I don't think humans are that good at compartmentalising, so in order to do something performatively so often and so well you have to trick your mind into actually believing it in a sort of corrupt way. I know this makes me sound like a middleschooler, but I think George Orwell's concept of doublethink is very much real in cases like these.
Generally with humans, I assume about 99% act in good faith, regardless of what they are arguing for. Someone could argue for genocide in good faith, for example. The last 1% are sociopaths who have some intense issue with emotions or socializing, and do awful things on purpose.
I think most of the republicans are good faith, they just have shitty ideology and problem solving skills, and dont do enough to counter their own biases.
While I'm sure that some are just cosplaying as Christians, i have no doubt that there are true believers there. I mean, RFK doesn't believe in germ fucking theory, so we know that being crazy is no hindrance from getting power. Is it really so hard to believe that Americans elected Congressmen who believe the earth is 6000 years old?
Their god is a vindictive evil fucker. A god of hate, and they mirror themselves in his image.
The observation from the words that I would now insist upon is this. -- "There is nothing that keeps wicked men at any one moment out of hell, but the mere pleasure of God." -- By the mere pleasure of God, I mean his sovereign pleasure, his arbitrary will, restrained by no obligation, hindered by no manner of difficulty, any more than if nothing else but God's mere will had in the least degree, or in any respect whatsoever, any hand in the preservation of wicked men one moment.
Wealthy republican politicians are too smart(/?) to be religious??
Top tier engineers in all fields can be found quietly attending church. It’s incredible—religion, a helluva…
Oh DEFINITELY people like orange hitler prob think about zero about god (idk if he’s literally atheist but obviously not religious)… CERTAINLY plenty of wealthy republican politicians are atheists and will never admit it…
But ohhhhh boy isn’t it worse that some genuinely believe especially the evil parts of the Bible? (Maybe “worse” is a little unfair, I deeply respect some very ethical & intelligent people who happen to have strong faith traditions)
Those who say, “I love God,” and hate a brother or sister are liars, for those who do not love a brother or sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen.
The next day the older daughter said to the younger, "Last night I slept with my father. Let’s get him to drink wine again tonight, and you go in and sleep with him so we can preserve our family line through our father.
"So they got their father to drink wine that night also, and the younger daughter went in and slept with him. Again he was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.
So both of Lot’s daughters became pregnant by their father.
That must have been some special magic booze to get the old man so drunk he couldn't recognize that he was fucking his own daughters, yet leave him capable of getting it up to do the deed...
If there were a heaven, it would 100% be only for wealthy people. Pearly gates? Golden streets? Nirvana? Eternal peace? That's rich people shit. I certainly can't afford that.
Heaven as a persistent idea in modern society is just a cope that rich people feed poor people through religion. It’s a structure for us to accept our miserable earthly existence in anticipation of future wealth so that the rich can enjoy all of the trappings of heaven on earth.
Disgusting pieces of shit. Reminds me of Jesus calling out the pharisees for praying in public, performatively. Not to mention they are going to ruin people's lives with that bill! Poor people are going to die so they can cut taxes for the rich!
Oh please white Jesus and white God. Bless us while we take food from the mouths of millions. Take Healthcare from millions of infirm. And life itself from those evil brown people both here and around the world.
It's worse than that. They're praying very sincerely to be successful in taking any money and assistance away from poor people, children, and the elderly, and transferring it to the already wealthy. And of course prayer granted. I'm just so sad that the only hell that exists is the one they've created on earth, and it's the one they make for everyone but themselves to live in.
I'm just going to assume these are republicans and furthermore call them scumbags, hypocrites, and heretics.
Matthew 6
1“Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.
2“So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 3But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
5“And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.
I don't know how anyone takes them seriously. They should be laughed out of the room and shunned by polite society. But there are a lot of bullshit "christian" churches peddling nonsense, I guess.
"Father God Jehovah Almighty, we prostrate ourselves before thee on these hallowed grounds. As you tell us in Jeremiah 29:11, you know the plans you have for us..."
Even if any of them believe they are praying, their "faith" is a sham in support of their real religion: power. To Republicans, "politics" is the religion founded on increasing personal power through performative speech and conduct.
They are hollow, nihilistic simulacrums of human-like virtue, expressing themselves only to drain the actual human value and agency from the public.
When will THEY be the seniors that die out? For heaven's sake, we went through a whole pandemic and this crusty ass government lost like zero evil fucks.
People who behave this way are dangerous to society. It's a signal that they think they know better than everyone else and are confidently correct in doing whatever the hell they consider the right thing without considering the effects on others. These are sociopaths.
They are exactly the same as Bin Laden. Trump isn't. Trump is just a crazy old hateful narcissist. This is why it is these people who need to be protested about. The attention needs to be ripped away from Trump and placed on them. He will turn on them.
To some morons on Lemmy, these people are actually just doing what democrats want to do. Despite the fact that we'll have at least 8 years of Democrats trying to undo this shit, it inevitably won't be good enough and that will be their proof. "See, Democrats are the same" these smug fucking morons will say. And someday I may punch their thoughtless faces for it.
Should have begun charging Trump immediately after Biden took office, instead of taking over 2 years to even get started. Voting rights act on day 1? Not a priority. Could have done things for the working class promised during campaign season, instead got stopped by the almighty senate parliamentarian...even while in power just nothing the poor Dems could do, except collect donations from rube voters of course. Could have held a primary election for ‘24 in good faith to energize the base by letting them choose their party leader (inevitably would not have been a corporate stooge) - didn’t, tried to run a known advanced dementia sufferer, and when that didn’t work, just anointed another corporate stooge.
The Dems are complicit, and voting for them is not going to combat this fascist regime one bit. Pull your head out of your ass and wake up.
The Dems are also fascists. I’m not saying support republicans, I’m saying support a new party altogether. The establishment has been screwing us for over 50 years now, and helping the Dems inevitably leads to more of the same.
First paragraph -- totally with you. Onboard 100%, A+
Last sentence, unhelpful, leads to republicans taking office and skullfucking the shit out of this country. I don't make that informal rules, I've just seen them play out repeatedly.
These discussions always assume the elections are fair, which in many states is not true.
Perhaps instead of bickering about unimportant stuff ( at least to me they are not important), everyone griping should at least check to make sure their local elections at least meet United Nations specifications? Maybe they do, but depending where you are at, probably not.
I will never ever understand political discussions done by the majority of Americans.
Political discussions between strangers probably never will be productive. I am just frustrated and fed up with the stupid ideas I see floating around. People who don't understand the country's politics are influencing it with this "both sides" bullshit and it's ruined our country because now the worst imaginable humans rule over us. Before it was a mix of people between true human garbage and genuinely well meaning people. It is idiotic to suggest everyone is fully on one side or the other, but that's what these idiots are peddling. And it's working unfortunately.
Eh, it’s been a long journey for me. Years ago I was active in the Democratic Party in Texas, later I was a keyboard warrior who wrote millions of words, none of which did any good.
Now I just want fair elections; again writing words, now in a very small community, that also does no good.
But I’m done with the partisan stuff, and think both sides are equally out of their minds.
Democracies need accurate ballot counting, most states fail this. The primaries in both parties and the general elections have been tampered with for decades in many states. This has totally changed the character and leadership of both parties over the decades.
This is not a falsifiable argument because the only way to prove the above is wrong is to not use the election machines run by private organizations. While at the same time exit polls and stats hint of extreme ballot stuffing by these very companies. It’s not rocket science.
But, most commentators and social media participants in USA politics don’t care or want to know.
The ballot manipulation will allow democrats to win the midterms by a landslide, and most likely have the presidency again in 2028, and people who want paper ballots will be rendered mute again by most. Then next cycle the republicans will win again!
It’s a very long game, with each iteration moving more wealth away from the majority. And the only way to fix it is with paper ballots counted in front of witnesses and unlimited recounts allowed. Even then, it will take a long time to fix
Agreed we need much better voting protections and a complete overhaul of the system, with national standards the states should be required to meet. I think there is probably a more modern solution available that would satisfy the requirements you’ve laid out, but would be happy to start with paper ballots if that’s all we can muster. Eventually I’d like to see something like a 1 way hash that can be combined with some of a voter’s PII to publicly verify votes cast and results while protecting voter identities.
Most democracies use hand counted paper ballots. It works, and it’s fast enough, no need to improve it.
I don’t understand the American need to tinker with a good system.
That said, there is no way the majority of USA states will switch over to better counting systems. Some areas of the world will never be able to be truly democratic. The Americans have some weird system that works for their upper class, and the lower classes fully believe in it. This will not change in my lifetime
But I’m done with the partisan stuff, and think both sides are equally out of their minds.
Look, I can get behind the general sentiment of your comment, but this is just wrong and it's dangerous to keep pushing this lie. Ain't nothing equal about it.
Democrats are out of their minds because they, as a party and a majority of participants: embrace electronic voting; do not demand recounts in very close elections; ignore exit polls that show more people voted for them than recorded in the elections they loose; have no interest in paper ballots etc etc.
If a party is against demanding better democratic practices in states they routinely lose. Sometimes loosing only narrowly.
And everyone needs them to win.
Then what would you call it besides a sort of insanity?
I’d just like to remind you that we’ve voted Dems into a super majority 3 times in the past 25 years, and every time they find some excuse to do nothing. It’s infuriating, until you realize that they are controlled opposition in an oligarchy, and the point of modern American government is to help the richest people in the world exploit and rob vulnerable Americans for everything they’re worth. Then it’s just sad to see people continually going to bat for them.
Dems are a pressure relief valve and a fundraising organization, nothing more.
About 10 minutes ago a bunch of you started this conspiracy theory and to say the least: not buying it. Coming up with convoluted ways of explaining reality is just a distraction from the fact that it's complicated and hard to understand
What conspiracy theory? Dems are bought, for just one example look at how they lick Israel’s boots and eagerly spend our money on killing Palestinian babies because their AIPAC handler pays them to do so. That doesn’t help us at home, and it doesn’t resonate with the voter base, yet they still collect the money and do the donor bidding every time.
I want actual representation, by stark contrast.
There is no conspiracy here other than the apparent belief that Democrats have democracy and the American people’s best interests in mind. Sure, there’s Bernie, but he won’t call himself a Dem - the reason why is no conspiracy, and that should tell you a lot about the Dem party.
I can read their minds through the magic of the internet, and a lot of unfortunate personal experience.
They open with long-winded, empty, masturbatory platitudes like this.
“Oh Lord our God, who rules from heaven, glorious is your name, we come to you today in prayer and supplication that you will show your glory and power to this sinful country, Lord. We marvel at your power and wisdom and glory, and we come to you as your servants, so that you can use us as the tools of your holy and glorious and most perfect will, oh God.”
Only then do they get to the meat of their evil demands to their coin-operated god.
“We pray that you would help us to rob the poor, hurt them, kill them, and deprive them of care and basic necessities. We pray that you would help us line our own pockets, and the pockets of our friends and donors, with the wealth stolen en masse from the weakest and least of your children. We pray that you help us capture, torture, and expel the foreigner and the stranger, who we do not want among us. We pray that you would help us separate children from their parents and parents from their children, especially those in need of medical care, and that you would help us deprive them of that care. We pray that you would help us subjugate the masses and make them slaves to our whims and enterprises, and deprive them of their freedom and agency, and to help us force all women, but only those born with pussies, to be the chattel that you have proclaimed them to be in your infinite wisdom. In your holy name, ah-men.”
Prayer doesn't work. At best it's stress relief: beats smoking. At worst it fosters a mindless life outlook.
Our present civilizational arrangement that depends on cheap energy and a world-wide endless supply chain is on its last legs. Hospitals depend on both reliable energy and supplies.
If civilization collapses, we can hope the basic knowledge we've accumulated over the last 150-200 years or so will endure. Things like blood circulation, blood pressure, germ theory, blood types, basic first aid, etc. But I doubt it. Most of us are functional morons. We use things that we don't have a clue how any of it got here or how it works.
And if we think about them at all, we assume humans have always had them. See the 1970s series Connections, just episode 1 for what I mean.
If we simply degrade and lose the entitlements we gained during the cheap energy fossil fuel orgy, we'll revert to historical patterns of top 1% getting all the best services and care, such as human doctors and organ transplants, and the rest of us will get AI "doctors" that prescribe symptomatic relief from the company that owns them. See the novel Bladerunner by Nourse for a general sketch. Also from the '70s, another period of political turmoil and a manufactured energy crisis. The difference is that now, the energy crisis isn't manufactured. It's foundational.
I could also be wrong, the LSD is hitting pretty hard this morning.
They're praying to pass a bill that kicks 15 million off health care and starves children so a handful of billionaires pay less tax.
That's what Jesus would do.
The Bible is notably silent on government social programs. Many Christians have taken it upon themselves to believe that social programs are evil, that they perpetuate the problems they’re intended to address, that they destroy the nuclear family, etc.
They sincerely believe that they are doing good by getting rid of these programs because they want to see the Christian family and the church take the central role on these issues, not the government. Furthermore, they believe that a government which tries to solve all social problems and create a utopia for everyone is fundamentally evil, hence the phrase:
They likely believe they're doing all this in God's name even though it is entirely against the actual teachings of Jesus.
He said also to the man who had invited him, “When you give a dinner or a banquet, do not invite your friends or your brothers or your relatives or rich neighbors, lest they also invite you in return and you be repaid. But when you give a feast, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, and you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you. For you will be repaid at the resurrection of the just.”
If André Carson, Ilhan Omar, Rashida Tlaib, and Lateefah Simon all prayed together in the House at one of the 5 daily prayers, during a vote, would the USA shrug?
That's not what that means. Separation of church and state simply means that the law doesn't favor one religion over another. What you're thinking of is the French formulation, known as laicite, which—you guessed it—is a French thing. It's also based on some pretty problematic ideas that lead and have led to some pretty problematic results, so yeah.
For a non-French example, he's the Australian constitution on the topic:
The Commonwealth shall not make any law for establishing any religion, or for imposing any religious observance, or for prohibiting the free exercise of any religion, and no religious test shall be required as a qualification for any office or public trust under the Commonwealth.
Nothing at all about lawmakers publicly adhering to a religion.
I think it's because these are people with the power to do more than thoughts and prayers. But they just stick with that while also taking health care off veterans and giving tax breaks to the rich.
The reactions to the Satanic Temple using pro-religion laws, and social media posts about public displays of established religions like Muslim prayers, show that most Americans do not approve displays of any religion except their own. With that in mind, the reasonable compromise is that there shouldn't be religious displays inside of state institutions.
So instead of allowing members to pray in the legislature, you want them to go outside? That's not inclusive of religions either. Not to mention they can call for a vote soon as all those whom are required by their religion to pray were mandated to leave to pray. I'm an atheist, but we need to let religion die on its own. Forcing it out will cause more problems than solutions. 30 years from now it will likely be rare to see it happen. But I'll still stand by it being their right to practice on their own
I wouldn't care. If they're religious they'll be following the morals and views of their religion. A little praying won't change or harm anyone. No different to another group having a chat
I think the guy all the way on the right was just caught squeezing the ass of one of his Republican colleagues as they passed a law that will kick millions off of Medicaid and close down hospitals so that they can fund brown shirts to the tune of what other countries pay for whole militaries.
I controversially agree, freedom of religion is a fundamental part of the United States’s identity. However, these people could always be praying for terrible things, so there’s a definite duality to this image. That being said, I think that religion can be seen as a mixture of freedom of speech and expression; I believe that this is a human right. Secondly, since I’m assuming that most of you are atheists here, why should you worry about what they are even praying for? If atheism states that there is no all-powerful deity, then this bickering is meaningless. If Christianity and its teachings happen to be true, then it is certain that the Christian God would never be in favor of what’s currently happening. For example, Mark 12:31 states “The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.” Which is the complete antithesis towards current events. As you can see, both possibilities show that God or not, the current administration is not supported by either.
The Constitution doesn't [just] give us freedom OF religion, it guarantees freedom FROM religion. People can have any religion they want, the government just can't allow it to influence government in any way.
This is only partially true, as the First Amendment states “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.” As you can see, practice of religion is not prohibited. My main point is that prayer will probably not have any meaningful impact on the success of immoral decisions.
To all the "not true Christian" chanters: Religion is unfortunately way too broad to interpret in many ways, especially christianity, which is filled with many contradictory views. One can just selectively refer to different translations and/or different chapters on the same issue. Jesus was famous for not forgiving child abusers, but the Old Testament has a chapter about "Menstrual Marriage" (allowing adolescent child marriage).
Uh. This is absolutely a constitutional freedom. Would y'all be incensed if it was a Muslim congressperson (say, Rashida Tlaib) that was praying? Yeah, they're hypocrites, but get angry about the hypocrisy and the Christian nationalism, not the expressions of religion.
Constitutional freedoms--including religion--are a foundation for our country. If that's not what you want, feel free to repeal the constitution, or move to a country that has a state religion instead.
I've read history books that aren't full-blown propaganda. If you had read any, you would know that oppression and violence is the foundation of ALL western countries, and most non-western ones as well. The difference being that countries in the EU are more comfortable forgetting that their wealth was built on things like the exploitation of the Congo, the British East India Company, et al.
The founding document of the US though, which is what I was clearly referring to, established certain civil rights that the gov't isn't supposed to infringe. Religious liberty is one of those. This is notably not a right in most non-US countries; many EU countries have state-funded religions, and citizens are often taxes by the gov'ts to pay for those religions.
I didn't say they aren't allowed to pray, just not in government buildings. It's literally the first fucking amendment (plus tons of contemporary writing from numerous founding fathers).
Yeah, no. That was never the intent of 1A. Individuals, or groups, are more than welcome to pray in government buildings, as long as they aren't forcing that religious expression on unwilling people, using it as a religious test, or something similar that would amount to the establishment of a state-sponsored religion.
Students can pray in schools; teachers can pray in schools. Teachers can not compel students to participate in prayers, nor are teachers supposed to lead students in prayer (as that's implied compulsion).
The Supreme Court recently ruled on that case with the football coach, so I can't say that I really give a shit what the current jurisprudence is on the issue.
Frankly, is this really the expression of religion? I don't think so. At best, it's the expression of hypocrisy, like anyone praying in public for the show and his personal expression of self-righteousness.
It's still amazing that many Americans are falling for this and are so religion centered. My own brother-in-law is an American pastor and a huge selfish hypocrite.
I'm an atheist and a Satanist. I agree that these people are, by the measure of what the Jesus Christ of the Christian Bible is claimed to have said, hypocrites. At best. And yes, Jesus said that you should pray in private, and that people who pray in public so that they can be seen to pray have already received their reward. (Matthew 6:5 - "And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.")
Matthew 6:5-6
Isaiah 1:15
Ezekial 23:20
(side note, while looking up this verse it brought me to biblegateway.com where it shows dozens of translations basically in a list, and here is what the MSG (The Message) version translated that one single sentence into:
https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Ezekiel%2023%3A20
How fucking creepy is that? First of all, the entire concept of this "translation" just seems like outright heresy, but what the fuck even is this?? Did the dude just read about massive dongs and it got him all horny so he wrote some Bible fanfiction in the middle of his "translation"?
Absolutely wild.
Edit: For people who don't click the link: This is one single verse according to Bible Gateway. This is not an entire section, this is the verse I quoted above as translated by the dude who makes this "translation." Or maybe Bible Gateway is wrong I dunno. Almost like having 3000 translations of your holy book dilutes it.
Edit: Because apparently people think I'd lie about something like this...
If you googled a single verse (this verse), and you saw this come up, how would you have reacted?
That translation is actually very accurate, but what you posted is 23:11-21, not just 23:20.
The Message is a “paraphrase” translation (“sense-for-sense”), which means it translates the concepts rather than just words (literal translation). Most Bible translations are literal translations, which is problematic because numerous connotative errors arise. Idioms, colloquialisms, and context are all lost in those translations. Today, the loss of context is often intentional, as restoring the context dramatically changes the meaning and puts it at odds with modern politically corrupted dogmas. To avoid those errors, The Message often translates groups of scriptures together instead of separately to achieve a more connotatively accurate english result.
If you were to read the same chunk of scriptures in another translation, you’d find the same content. Where The Message differs is that it attempts to translate idioms into modern (as of 20 years ago) versions, which often has hilariously anachronistic “how do you do, fellow kids” results.
That said, it’s one of the more trustworthy translations available, though plenty of grains of salt are still required.
Did you click the link? Every other translation is a single sentence. This is one single verse translated in The Message according to Bible Gateway. Why would they do that?
According to whom?
I’ll just leave these here. They’re the exact website you mentioned using.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel+23&version=MSG
Why would I lie about something like that?
You conflated the way the website displays content (literal versus paraphrase translations) with the translations themselves (you literally painted the paraphrase translation as “fan fiction”). I clearly explained how the different translations work, that the content itself is the same for all available translations, and why the translations are likely to be displayed differently. Additionally, the website is freely accessible and confirming these things takes seconds.
But you appear to have ignored everything I said and then doubled down on your own bizarre take. And again, this is all easily verifiable in seconds on the website you, yourself, mentioned.
It doesn’t really matter whether you are trying to be deceptive on purpose or whether you are simply clueless and obstinate. Doubling down on a bad take after getting something so wrong makes for some potent fremdschämen.
Metaphorically, the whore in that passage is Israel. You could switch out the Assyrians and Babylonians for the various nation states that arm Israel today…
Isn't it so awesome that you can just make anything mean anything?
Metal as fuck
Amos 5:21;23-24
Just to be clear, the "justice" being referred to here is literal genocide performed by the Israelites.
Eh, no? The transgressions are named in Amos 2:4-12; it's the slavery, the way they treat the poor, the greed, and the incorporation of polytheistic practices like sacred prostitution.
Yeah I don't think they've read that bit.
or any bit. pretty sure a bunch of them cannot read at all.
Not a single Christian among them. What exactly are they praying for, did anyone ask?
Optics, they are praying for optics.
It's funny how fast Murica has fallen into authoritarianism, I'm genuinely having a hard time believing that such a large portion of the population can be so stupid.
Think of how stupid the average person is
Half of em are dumber than that
RIP St George
We need him now more than ever. He'd happily carry our disdain.
If stupidity has a symmetric distribution.
It's been the calculated plan for far longer than I can remember.
Conservative politics relies on stupid uneducated voters incapable of critical thinking.
The voters that, with a lack of actual knowledge of their own through either experience, formal education or even just good old fashioned intellectual curiosity about the world around them, will happily cede their opinion to the first authority figure who tells them what they are already presdisposed to believe and confirm their biases.
It's the entire reason there has been a coordinated attack on the liberal arts and college education under the guise of "financial constraints" and the push in the last few decades towards trade schools.
Conservative politics requires stupid who are content to learn how to be a tradesman, without any of that inconventient history or critical thinking getting in the way.
I get that's been the game plan, and to be honest it's worked perfectly, but poor people actually gloating about "owning the libs" while shooting themselves in the foot, the face and all else beggars belief!
The truest line ever uttered in film...
"A person can be smart. But people are dumb, panicky dangerous animals, and you know it." -- Kay from MiB
We've all been hardwired with groupthink. We had to be. When a member of your tribe comes running by in a panic, you don't have time to stop and think what the hell is he running from?, you just start running along with him. It's the difference between living to hunt another day or getting killed by a bigger predator than you are.
The more people that are running. The more important it is (to our brain) to just start legging it. No one wants to be the straggler at the back that gets picked off. For that reason, group-think and herd-mentality skews incredibly towards the simplistic. In terms of evolution, there's no time to worry about the why...you just trust that if everyone else is running, you probably should be too. In terms of modern day that is the susceptibility of uneducated people to dogma, polemics and confirmation bias.
A single person..and individual that has critical thinking skills and the ability to look at the wider context, can overcome that instint. They can stop and say "hmmm...maybe I should look and see if this really is something that is going to harm me." They can reason themselves out of group-think.
But without that context. Without that critical thinking, you have almost no choice but to rely on the fact that if someone is telling you to run, they must know more than you...so get it in gear.
Whether that person is telling you to run from a predator, or to hate immigrants, it's all due to the same inherent mentality in humans.
Spot on regarding the person vs group. Being a fan of history I'm amazed at how far we've come technologically, but how our base instincts haven't changed. Even in the face of all the evidence about our behaviour historically, we repeat our mistakes time and again.
It's the good-ol' lizard brain and it isn't going away.
It's the part of the brain that controls emotions, moods, fear, fight-or-flight, etc... The Limbic Cortex
The sole purpose of critical thinking skills and knowledge of things like history, civics, etc... (whether that comes from education, experience or just good old fashioned intellectual curiosity) is to give the rest of our brain the context necessary to override that lizard brain. (In my opinion).
Too many people just don't care enough about the world around them to bother with that and are content to just let their lizard brain run things. It's these people that are susceptible to group-think, and it's these people (ironically) who think that they are ones who are thinking for themselves when in reality it's quite the opposite.
Well they got em. The Lord truly does provide 🙌🥴
The concept of God was invented because it's an unbearable thought to think that men like these will get away scot free with what they're doing
The concept of God was invented by men like these to enable exactly what they're doing :)
It's the ultimate authoritarian power fantasy, and the human mouthpieces for that ultimate authority tend to be very well taken care of.
You don't get to decide this, regardless of how embarrassed you may be.
Oh they may call themselves Christians, but none of them uphold the ideals or beliefs of Christians. They are hypocrites. The same day they do this they take away healthcare from millions, take food out of children's hands, and ramp up more violence to those already hurting.
I don't care what their label is they put on the outside, none of these are Christian. They openly spit on the morals that Jesus laid down.
The bible begs to differ. I'm sure your source is better though on what makes a Christian.
The Bible tells you that you get to decide who is a Christian or not?
I'm afraid not, sir/madam. In fact, I believe it says precisely the opposite.
Since you're not discussing in good faith,I won't bother responding again. You know what I meant but anyway, they're idol worshippers and infidels.
If your behaviour is any indication then being a Christian means talking down to people and refusing to discuss or consider ideas other than your own.
Sounds about right.
Jesus didn't stutter when he talked about strangers, the poor,those in need, the sick, and the wealthy. I suggest you read the bible critically. Any member of congress who backs Trump and claims to be Christian will burn in their version of hell fire. Much like the so called muslims leading the Gulf countries.
We don't know what jesus said at all tbh.
OK, what? Holy shit what a cop out...
I know exactly what you meant, and I'm tired of seeing this "no true Christian" shit everywhere. You don't get to disown these people.
Edit: Who are the 5 additional people that upvote a Christian comment calling other Christians "infidels." What fucking site am I on?
You will never convince me that shit like this is more than just performative play-acting for the sake of their base.
They aren't actually fucking praying. They don't actually believe any of this shit. It's a tool used to keep the support of their base of white christian nationalists.
That's why we see them doing shit like this now than every before.
In a world where more liberal minded Christians are balking at how "unchristian" these idiots are turning out to be, they have to make these shows louder and more obvious...and make damn sure there's a camera around, so that they can play even harder to the more extreme supporters.
If they were to quietly go about their business with no "performative acts of faith", more people would recognize them as the monsters they are.
But with shit like this, 81 year old grandparents the country over can look at them and say "I don't understand what they're doing, but they MUST be the good guys because look how christian they are..."
If anyone thinks America is getting out of this without resorting to firing squads and hanging these fuckers upside down in town squares, they're naive as fuck.
The bible also says to take care of the poor and a bunch of other stuff they actively work against.
The poor stakeholders you mean?
Exactly. But performative acts like this play to their base. And their base is almost exclusively people who haven't read the very book they profess to follow.
Most athielsts (myself included) have read more of the bible than any of these people ever have.
Ever see one of those photos with HitlerPig in the middle, with a group of people all with one hand on his shoulder, all with their eyes closed, praying? And there in the middle front, is HitlerPig, who we all know is an absolute Sociopath, and doesn't believe any of that crap.
The fact that these liars weren't struck by lightning while posing for this photo, is proof positive that the God they claim to worship doesn't exist.
Also the lack of salt pillars
The most worrying thing is that I think they do believe (a form of) it. They believe their god is helping them maintain power, and is helping people.
They just don't see us as 'people'.
They absolutely do believe in this shit. They're a bunch of evil idiots.
Fucking cult!
I agree with everything else that you're saying, but I wouldn't be so sure about this. Have you ever noticed how it's much easier to start online flame wars when you actually believe in the batshit stance that you're arguing as opposed to pretending to believe it for the sake of trolling? I think it's a similar thing here. I don't think humans are that good at compartmentalising, so in order to do something performatively so often and so well you have to trick your mind into actually believing it in a sort of corrupt way. I know this makes me sound like a middleschooler, but I think George Orwell's concept of doublethink is very much real in cases like these.
Generally with humans, I assume about 99% act in good faith, regardless of what they are arguing for. Someone could argue for genocide in good faith, for example. The last 1% are sociopaths who have some intense issue with emotions or socializing, and do awful things on purpose.
I think most of the republicans are good faith, they just have shitty ideology and problem solving skills, and dont do enough to counter their own biases.
While I'm sure that some are just cosplaying as Christians, i have no doubt that there are true believers there. I mean, RFK doesn't believe in germ fucking theory, so we know that being crazy is no hindrance from getting power. Is it really so hard to believe that Americans elected Congressmen who believe the earth is 6000 years old?
Their god is a vindictive evil fucker. A god of hate, and they mirror themselves in his image.
Johnathan Edwards
Wealthy republican politicians are too smart(/?) to be religious??
Top tier engineers in all fields can be found quietly attending church. It’s incredible—religion, a helluva…
Oh DEFINITELY people like orange hitler prob think about zero about god (idk if he’s literally atheist but obviously not religious)… CERTAINLY plenty of wealthy republican politicians are atheists and will never admit it…
But ohhhhh boy isn’t it worse that some genuinely believe especially the evil parts of the Bible? (Maybe “worse” is a little unfair, I deeply respect some very ethical & intelligent people who happen to have strong faith traditions)
Don't worry, you will start a war with us, that will end like the war in Ukraine for Russia 😇
Those who say, “I love God,” and hate a brother or sister are liars, for those who do not love a brother or sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen.
1 John 4:20
4:20, ayoooo! /s
The next day the older daughter said to the younger, "Last night I slept with my father. Let’s get him to drink wine again tonight, and you go in and sleep with him so we can preserve our family line through our father.
"So they got their father to drink wine that night also, and the younger daughter went in and slept with him. Again he was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.
So both of Lot’s daughters became pregnant by their father.
Genesis 19:34-36
That must have been some special magic booze to get the old man so drunk he couldn't recognize that he was fucking his own daughters, yet leave him capable of getting it up to do the deed...
Joke's on you, I'm an only child.
It bothers me how pretty this is. Like, the best logo you can never use anywhere.
Why do AI company logos look like buttholes?
It is the logo of magic the gathering circlejerk sub on reddit
That's hilariously self-aware
Change the colours up to the gayest possible and you're good
It’s like Ubuntu meets onlyfans.
None of those motherfuckers are going to heaven.
I’m sad there isn’t a heaven for them to be excluded from.
If there were a heaven, it would 100% be only for wealthy people. Pearly gates? Golden streets? Nirvana? Eternal peace? That's rich people shit. I certainly can't afford that.
Heaven as a persistent idea in modern society is just a cope that rich people feed poor people through religion. It’s a structure for us to accept our miserable earthly existence in anticipation of future wealth so that the rich can enjoy all of the trappings of heaven on earth.
It’s just metaphysical trickle down economics.
kinda like an... opium? ...of the masses?
You should trademark that.
This is called taking the Lord's name in vain. But they tell people that's saying omg
yet more evidence religion is a sham. If god were real, they would most certainly be dead.
"Dear God, thank you for Trump, ICE, and Alligator Auschwitz. Please let our reich last a thousand years."
Awww, I thought you also made the prayer 14 words. Would've really nailed the point home.
In a just world this would be hilarious
b/c it would have to be followed up by a punchline or be a comedian’s punchline
1000% troglodyte shit, damn I feel bad for someone who could say that unironically
Sounds like his wife cuckolded him with a black dude and he was salty or something tbh
Yeah it definitely does read like incel propaganda with the rest in there.
Wow, I didn't know fascists wanted to protect women! They're such allies! /s (hopefully obvious)
Disgusting pieces of shit. Reminds me of Jesus calling out the pharisees for praying in public, performatively. Not to mention they are going to ruin people's lives with that bill! Poor people are going to die so they can cut taxes for the rich!
Oh please white Jesus and white God. Bless us while we take food from the mouths of millions. Take Healthcare from millions of infirm. And life itself from those evil brown people both here and around the world.
Amen. /s
Totally performative. Just a bunch of assholes.
It's worse than that. They're praying very sincerely to be successful in taking any money and assistance away from poor people, children, and the elderly, and transferring it to the already wealthy. And of course prayer granted. I'm just so sad that the only hell that exists is the one they've created on earth, and it's the one they make for everyone but themselves to live in.
I'm just going to assume these are republicans and furthermore call them scumbags, hypocrites, and heretics.
Matthew 6
I don't know how anyone takes them seriously. They should be laughed out of the room and shunned by polite society. But there are a lot of bullshit "christian" churches peddling nonsense, I guess.
Just one more part of the books they have never bothered with
The type of person who critically reads the bible is the type of person who stops believing in religion. Sort of a shitty paradox.
Was just about to quote this. Seems like they really read the book. 🤡
Right before they pass some abysmal legislation that would make Jesus weep
I'm pretty sure he'd skip weeping and go straight for the whip and upending of tables.
*wheeping
I don't get this one... Did the spelling of weeping change?
Maybe it was a word for the combined action of whipping while you weep?
I think that's what I was going for
Honestly, I was still half asleep when I commented XD
Makes sense now.
If it makes you feel better, a random scrabble solver website listed it as valid. Didn't cite the source but ah well.
It’s a portmanteau with a Spanish accent.
If these people have their way, the USA will become a religious autocracy that respects human rights on a level comparable to that in Iran.
But only for men. Women will be treated like in Afghanistan.
Yeah so, fun fact, they got their way.
"Dear God, please help us kill the poors and the gays and the brown and blacks. Amen."
Looks more like a circle jerk to me.
Same thing
Ah, the ol' prayer oneupsmanship.
"Father God Jehovah Almighty, we prostrate ourselves before thee on these hallowed grounds. As you tell us in Jeremiah 29:11, you know the plans you have for us..."
Sorry, just a little flashback.
They’re not praying, they’re huddling to come up with another evil plan.
How about one night we smash the windows of Latino owned businesses so they know we really don't want them.
Why are they praying in a huddle? Do they all shout in unison “GO TEAM” afterwards ?
Don’t you also have separation of church and state? Wasn’t that what you were founded on?
It's so the microphones can't catch the stuff they're praying to be forgiven for.
That would mean admitting they did something wrong, which is impossible for these ghouls.
Church and state have been separated.
They simply joined the Church of State.
They have found a way to make praying to the magic man in the sky even more ridiculous.
separation of church and state? No
Saw this somewhere else in lemmy.
Fucking gross.
Hey, guys, I don't think Jesus would approve of cuts to Medicaid and Medicare, but keep pretending that you are holier than me.
If Jesus were to come today they'll deport him go El Salvador.
In their view, he would. They believe that Jesus wants people to give directly to charity, not to create government programs for it.
You weren’t there, you can’t say that, you don't know that for sure.
Edit: Are you fucking kidding me, people!? /S
"Oh yeah, that's definitely settled: John has the biggest one! Ok folks, zip up before they realize what we're doing!"
I wonder if there is anyone in the group that is actually praying or they are all just pretending for the others
It's virtue signalling.
Even if any of them believe they are praying, their "faith" is a sham in support of their real religion: power. To Republicans, "politics" is the religion founded on increasing personal power through performative speech and conduct.
They are hollow, nihilistic simulacrums of human-like virtue, expressing themselves only to drain the actual human value and agency from the public.
They are absolutely praying... Lots of embarrassed Christians in this thread desperate to distance themselves from their own religion.
"Alright guys, someone very carefully look to see if the cameras are still here"
I think there's a biscuit that they're all looking at
Alright boys, whoever takes away the most rights gets the last one!
Do you win or lose if you get to eat the biscuit, or is it just a matter of perspective?
These people think all compassion and "wokeness" is preformative because everything in their lives is preformative.
Am I the only one finding this disgusting?
That's the word that came to my mind
Circle jerkin 4 Jesus.
Sticky communion wafer.
yeah I thought it looked kind of gay notthattheresanythingwrongwiththat
Praying for more dead seniors and babies.
When will THEY be the seniors that die out? For heaven's sake, we went through a whole pandemic and this crusty ass government lost like zero evil fucks.
Keep religion out of politics, it never EVER ends well.
Bring back Separation of Church and State.
Should've never left
People who behave this way are dangerous to society. It's a signal that they think they know better than everyone else and are confidently correct in doing whatever the hell they consider the right thing without considering the effects on others. These are sociopaths.
They are exactly the same as Bin Laden. Trump isn't. Trump is just a crazy old hateful narcissist. This is why it is these people who need to be protested about. The attention needs to be ripped away from Trump and placed on them. He will turn on them.
Same. Also: alter calls, laying on hands, speaking in tongues...
Fucking cringe.
To some morons on Lemmy, these people are actually just doing what democrats want to do. Despite the fact that we'll have at least 8 years of Democrats trying to undo this shit, it inevitably won't be good enough and that will be their proof. "See, Democrats are the same" these smug fucking morons will say. And someday I may punch their thoughtless faces for it.
Should have begun charging Trump immediately after Biden took office, instead of taking over 2 years to even get started. Voting rights act on day 1? Not a priority. Could have done things for the working class promised during campaign season, instead got stopped by the almighty senate parliamentarian...even while in power just nothing the poor Dems could do, except collect donations from rube voters of course. Could have held a primary election for ‘24 in good faith to energize the base by letting them choose their party leader (inevitably would not have been a corporate stooge) - didn’t, tried to run a known advanced dementia sufferer, and when that didn’t work, just anointed another corporate stooge.
The Dems are complicit, and voting for them is not going to combat this fascist regime one bit. Pull your head out of your ass and wake up.
"I would rather actively help the fascists take over instead of choosing the status quo over evil." they said smugly from their high horse.
The Dems are also fascists. I’m not saying support republicans, I’m saying support a new party altogether. The establishment has been screwing us for over 50 years now, and helping the Dems inevitably leads to more of the same.
Yeah, simple as.
First paragraph -- totally with you. Onboard 100%, A+
Last sentence, unhelpful, leads to republicans taking office and skullfucking the shit out of this country. I don't make that informal rules, I've just seen them play out repeatedly.
These discussions always assume the elections are fair, which in many states is not true.
Perhaps instead of bickering about unimportant stuff ( at least to me they are not important), everyone griping should at least check to make sure their local elections at least meet United Nations specifications? Maybe they do, but depending where you are at, probably not.
I will never ever understand political discussions done by the majority of Americans.
Political discussions between strangers probably never will be productive. I am just frustrated and fed up with the stupid ideas I see floating around. People who don't understand the country's politics are influencing it with this "both sides" bullshit and it's ruined our country because now the worst imaginable humans rule over us. Before it was a mix of people between true human garbage and genuinely well meaning people. It is idiotic to suggest everyone is fully on one side or the other, but that's what these idiots are peddling. And it's working unfortunately.
Eh, it’s been a long journey for me. Years ago I was active in the Democratic Party in Texas, later I was a keyboard warrior who wrote millions of words, none of which did any good.
Now I just want fair elections; again writing words, now in a very small community, that also does no good.
But I’m done with the partisan stuff, and think both sides are equally out of their minds.
Democracies need accurate ballot counting, most states fail this. The primaries in both parties and the general elections have been tampered with for decades in many states. This has totally changed the character and leadership of both parties over the decades.
This is not a falsifiable argument because the only way to prove the above is wrong is to not use the election machines run by private organizations. While at the same time exit polls and stats hint of extreme ballot stuffing by these very companies. It’s not rocket science.
But, most commentators and social media participants in USA politics don’t care or want to know.
The ballot manipulation will allow democrats to win the midterms by a landslide, and most likely have the presidency again in 2028, and people who want paper ballots will be rendered mute again by most. Then next cycle the republicans will win again!
It’s a very long game, with each iteration moving more wealth away from the majority. And the only way to fix it is with paper ballots counted in front of witnesses and unlimited recounts allowed. Even then, it will take a long time to fix
Agreed we need much better voting protections and a complete overhaul of the system, with national standards the states should be required to meet. I think there is probably a more modern solution available that would satisfy the requirements you’ve laid out, but would be happy to start with paper ballots if that’s all we can muster. Eventually I’d like to see something like a 1 way hash that can be combined with some of a voter’s PII to publicly verify votes cast and results while protecting voter identities.
Most democracies use hand counted paper ballots. It works, and it’s fast enough, no need to improve it.
I don’t understand the American need to tinker with a good system.
That said, there is no way the majority of USA states will switch over to better counting systems. Some areas of the world will never be able to be truly democratic. The Americans have some weird system that works for their upper class, and the lower classes fully believe in it. This will not change in my lifetime
Look, I can get behind the general sentiment of your comment, but this is just wrong and it's dangerous to keep pushing this lie. Ain't nothing equal about it.
Democrats are out of their minds because they, as a party and a majority of participants: embrace electronic voting; do not demand recounts in very close elections; ignore exit polls that show more people voted for them than recorded in the elections they loose; have no interest in paper ballots etc etc.
If a party is against demanding better democratic practices in states they routinely lose. Sometimes loosing only narrowly.
And everyone needs them to win.
Then what would you call it besides a sort of insanity?
I’m glad we have some agreement at least.
I’d just like to remind you that we’ve voted Dems into a super majority 3 times in the past 25 years, and every time they find some excuse to do nothing. It’s infuriating, until you realize that they are controlled opposition in an oligarchy, and the point of modern American government is to help the richest people in the world exploit and rob vulnerable Americans for everything they’re worth. Then it’s just sad to see people continually going to bat for them.
Dems are a pressure relief valve and a fundraising organization, nothing more.
About 10 minutes ago a bunch of you started this conspiracy theory and to say the least: not buying it. Coming up with convoluted ways of explaining reality is just a distraction from the fact that it's complicated and hard to understand
What conspiracy theory? Dems are bought, for just one example look at how they lick Israel’s boots and eagerly spend our money on killing Palestinian babies because their AIPAC handler pays them to do so. That doesn’t help us at home, and it doesn’t resonate with the voter base, yet they still collect the money and do the donor bidding every time.
I want actual representation, by stark contrast.
There is no conspiracy here other than the apparent belief that Democrats have democracy and the American people’s best interests in mind. Sure, there’s Bernie, but he won’t call himself a Dem - the reason why is no conspiracy, and that should tell you a lot about the Dem party.
A dodge of the obvious point I made, and a poor one
I can read their minds through the magic of the internet, and a lot of unfortunate personal experience.
They open with long-winded, empty, masturbatory platitudes like this.
Only then do they get to the meat of their evil demands to their coin-operated god.
Straight out of Handmaids tale. Commander Waterford
Circle jerking it.
Looney tunes factory music playing all the way
Weak-minded fools.
It looks like they are playing craps.
Nah, they are playing that game where they all jerk off onto a cookie and the last one to cum has to eat it.
PrayerCirclejerkTrump doesn't listen to your prayers, fuckheads.
If prayer worked, there would be no hospitals.
Prayer better work because soon there won’t be any
Prayer doesn't work. At best it's stress relief: beats smoking. At worst it fosters a mindless life outlook.
Our present civilizational arrangement that depends on cheap energy and a world-wide endless supply chain is on its last legs. Hospitals depend on both reliable energy and supplies.
If civilization collapses, we can hope the basic knowledge we've accumulated over the last 150-200 years or so will endure. Things like blood circulation, blood pressure, germ theory, blood types, basic first aid, etc. But I doubt it. Most of us are functional morons. We use things that we don't have a clue how any of it got here or how it works.
And if we think about them at all, we assume humans have always had them. See the 1970s series Connections, just episode 1 for what I mean.
If we simply degrade and lose the entitlements we gained during the cheap energy fossil fuel orgy, we'll revert to historical patterns of top 1% getting all the best services and care, such as human doctors and organ transplants, and the rest of us will get AI "doctors" that prescribe symptomatic relief from the company that owns them. See the novel Bladerunner by Nourse for a general sketch. Also from the '70s, another period of political turmoil and a manufactured energy crisis. The difference is that now, the energy crisis isn't manufactured. It's foundational.
I could also be wrong, the LSD is hitting pretty hard this morning.
You don't think hospital ceos pray?
How would I know? Are they trying to quit smoking?
They shouldn't cluster so closely together, it's a risk. Not that I'm suggesting anything.
It appears to have worked. I guess that's why they think it will work for mass shootings of school children to.
Or they're playing Soggy Biscuit. Either way, it's about as effective as a form of government.
Why is that infuriating? I'm not religious, but why would this not be allowed?
They're praying to pass a bill that kicks 15 million off health care and starves children so a handful of billionaires pay less tax.
That's what Jesus would do.
So holy.
These people should be more holey
"people"
The Bible is notably silent on government social programs. Many Christians have taken it upon themselves to believe that social programs are evil, that they perpetuate the problems they’re intended to address, that they destroy the nuclear family, etc.
They sincerely believe that they are doing good by getting rid of these programs because they want to see the Christian family and the church take the central role on these issues, not the government. Furthermore, they believe that a government which tries to solve all social problems and create a utopia for everyone is fundamentally evil, hence the phrase:
“Don’t immanentize the eschaton.”
They likely believe they're doing all this in God's name even though it is entirely against the actual teachings of Jesus.
Luke 14:12-14
Separation of church and state is supposed to be a thing. Lawmakers praying inside the chamber isn't separate at all.
If André Carson, Ilhan Omar, Rashida Tlaib, and Lateefah Simon all prayed together in the House at one of the 5 daily prayers, during a vote, would the USA shrug?
Nope, it'd be another 911 to the R tards and they'd scream about it like bitchy toddlers from every podium they could find
Both Republicans and Democrats said Miller was rediculous for complaining about prayers
http://thehill.com/homenews/house/5337130-illinois-republican-mary-miller-sikh-muslim-prayer/amp/
Actually not surprising at all
That's not what that means. Separation of church and state simply means that the law doesn't favor one religion over another. What you're thinking of is the French formulation, known as laicite, which—you guessed it—is a French thing. It's also based on some pretty problematic ideas that lead and have led to some pretty problematic results, so yeah.
For a non-French example, he's the Australian constitution on the topic:
Nothing at all about lawmakers publicly adhering to a religion.
They are jackass.
But this is as educated as screaming first amendment when a mod removes a post. Wow.
I think it's because these are people with the power to do more than thoughts and prayers. But they just stick with that while also taking health care off veterans and giving tax breaks to the rich.
That's the power. They're doing more.
How would most people react if that was a group of Muslims? Or if the Satanic Church tried to do a small prayer there?
Most would be fine with it. It's done often and both parties shit on someone last month for taking issue with it.
http://thehill.com/homenews/house/5337130-illinois-republican-mary-miller-sikh-muslim-prayer/amp/
The reactions to the Satanic Temple using pro-religion laws, and social media posts about public displays of established religions like Muslim prayers, show that most Americans do not approve displays of any religion except their own. With that in mind, the reasonable compromise is that there shouldn't be religious displays inside of state institutions.
So instead of allowing members to pray in the legislature, you want them to go outside? That's not inclusive of religions either. Not to mention they can call for a vote soon as all those whom are required by their religion to pray were mandated to leave to pray. I'm an atheist, but we need to let religion die on its own. Forcing it out will cause more problems than solutions. 30 years from now it will likely be rare to see it happen. But I'll still stand by it being their right to practice on their own
I wouldn't care. If they're religious they'll be following the morals and views of their religion. A little praying won't change or harm anyone. No different to another group having a chat
We knew you were concern trolling. Thanks for confirming though.
We now know you will just shoot down any alternative opinion and pretend it is trolling. Thanks for confirming.
they prayed after the bbb passed is happened
Praying is just talking to your imaginary friend, and having it tell back to you what you want to hear.
These elected representatives are no more mentally developed than elementary school children. Must be from a state full of lead pipes.
Wish they'd pray for forgiveness because then that would mean admitting mistakes.
To Satan, I presume.
Satan has a stronger sense of morals than these things that pretend to be people. They've really motivated me to join the satanic church.
No, Satan dared to defy his father and was thrown out of the house.
None of these fucks would dare defy their daddy Trump.
Satan would never
Praying to the dark lord Erebus no doubt
They got to be KKK wherever they come from?
Dear god, please help us know how best to please the antichrist. Thx.
I think the guy all the way on the right was just caught squeezing the ass of one of his Republican colleagues as they passed a law that will kick millions off of Medicaid and close down hospitals so that they can fund brown shirts to the tune of what other countries pay for whole militaries.
I controversially agree, freedom of religion is a fundamental part of the United States’s identity. However, these people could always be praying for terrible things, so there’s a definite duality to this image. That being said, I think that religion can be seen as a mixture of freedom of speech and expression; I believe that this is a human right. Secondly, since I’m assuming that most of you are atheists here, why should you worry about what they are even praying for? If atheism states that there is no all-powerful deity, then this bickering is meaningless. If Christianity and its teachings happen to be true, then it is certain that the Christian God would never be in favor of what’s currently happening. For example, Mark 12:31 states “The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.” Which is the complete antithesis towards current events. As you can see, both possibilities show that God or not, the current administration is not supported by either.
The Constitution doesn't [just] give us freedom OF religion, it guarantees freedom FROM religion. People can have any religion they want, the government just can't allow it to influence government in any way.
This is only partially true, as the First Amendment states “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.” As you can see, practice of religion is not prohibited. My main point is that prayer will probably not have any meaningful impact on the success of immoral decisions.
Valid point. I added the word [just] to my post to clarify.
GOP bukkake.
Ive seen circles like that and it aint praying. I wonder who the lucky guy in the middle is?
All we need is a good horseshoe.
You think they'll pray when the masses eventually drag them out of the chambers?
Please don't let them release the Epstein files. Amen.
With a different angle we could have had a fasces over their heads.
They are prob praying for the children in Palestine, Ukraine and of the people on Medicaid, Medicare.
Y’all voted for them. This is what they’re doing.
Quick reminder: libs spent decades telling us to respect others' religious beliefs or else said stupid shit like "not ALL christians!!"
This is what you get for removing the guardrails.
To all the "not true Christian" chanters: Religion is unfortunately way too broad to interpret in many ways, especially christianity, which is filled with many contradictory views. One can just selectively refer to different translations and/or different chapters on the same issue. Jesus was famous for not forgiving child abusers, but the Old Testament has a chapter about "Menstrual Marriage" (allowing adolescent child marriage).
Not to mention all of the slavery stuff...
Uh. This is absolutely a constitutional freedom. Would y'all be incensed if it was a Muslim congressperson (say, Rashida Tlaib) that was praying? Yeah, they're hypocrites, but get angry about the hypocrisy and the Christian nationalism, not the expressions of religion.
Uh, yes? This shit should be as far away from politics as possible. I don't want to see any religion's prayer/practice in that building.
Constitutional freedoms--including religion--are a foundation for our country. If that's not what you want, feel free to repeal the constitution, or move to a country that has a state religion instead.
Lmao. Foundation of your country is racism, slavery, oppression, and neocolonialism.
Feel free to read a history book that isn't a full-blown propaganda some day. Your country always has been a christofascist state.
But whatever makes you sleep at night, ig.
I've read history books that aren't full-blown propaganda. If you had read any, you would know that oppression and violence is the foundation of ALL western countries, and most non-western ones as well. The difference being that countries in the EU are more comfortable forgetting that their wealth was built on things like the exploitation of the Congo, the British East India Company, et al.
The founding document of the US though, which is what I was clearly referring to, established certain civil rights that the gov't isn't supposed to infringe. Religious liberty is one of those. This is notably not a right in most non-US countries; many EU countries have state-funded religions, and citizens are often taxes by the gov'ts to pay for those religions.
I didn't say they aren't allowed to pray, just not in government buildings. It's literally the first fucking amendment (plus tons of contemporary writing from numerous founding fathers).
Yeah, no. That was never the intent of 1A. Individuals, or groups, are more than welcome to pray in government buildings, as long as they aren't forcing that religious expression on unwilling people, using it as a religious test, or something similar that would amount to the establishment of a state-sponsored religion.
Students can pray in schools; teachers can pray in schools. Teachers can not compel students to participate in prayers, nor are teachers supposed to lead students in prayer (as that's implied compulsion).
This shit is a cancer to liberal democracy.
The Supreme Court recently ruled on that case with the football coach, so I can't say that I really give a shit what the current jurisprudence is on the issue.
Frankly, is this really the expression of religion? I don't think so. At best, it's the expression of hypocrisy, like anyone praying in public for the show and his personal expression of self-righteousness.
It's still amazing that many Americans are falling for this and are so religion centered. My own brother-in-law is an American pastor and a huge selfish hypocrite.
I'm an atheist and a Satanist. I agree that these people are, by the measure of what the Jesus Christ of the Christian Bible is claimed to have said, hypocrites. At best. And yes, Jesus said that you should pray in private, and that people who pray in public so that they can be seen to pray have already received their reward. (Matthew 6:5 - "And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.")
But it's still a foundational civil right.
I never said they didn't have the right to show us their hypocrisy. Frankly, the Buffon in chief is doing much worse than that.